controll your dreams?

[chrisberez]

OK, I'm pretty skeptical (obviously) about whether this could actually work, but seriously, how freaking cool would it be if it did? (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/J/JAPAN_DREAMMAKER?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

TOKYO (AP) -- Ever wished you could decide what to dream at night?

A Japanese toymaker says it has a new gadget that can help you do just that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While preparing for bed, the user mounts a photograph on the device of who should appear in the dream, selects music appropriate to the mood - fantasy, comedy, romantic story, nostalgia - and records key word prompts, such as the name of a romantic crush.

Placed near the bedside, the dream-maker emits a special white light, relaxing music and a fragrance to help the person nod off.

Several hours later, it plays back the recorded word prompts, timed to coincide with the part of the sleep cycle when dreams most often occur. It then helps coax the sleeper gently out of sleep with more light and music so that the dreams are not forgotten.

If this worked, (and that's a big if), think of the possibilities.

OK, forget the possibilities. To be honest, there's really only one possibility most of us would be interested in.

[Uh_Clem]

I've heard of devices that gave you a mild shock that were supposed "remind" you that you're dreaming so you could control your dreams. I always thought that if they actually worked they'd be pretty popular, which they're not.

If it does actually work I predict sleeping pills and Brittany Spears cd's will be on the shelf right next to it.

[flyboy217]

If only there were such things as lucid dreams.

If only it were possible to learn to have them.

[Correa Neto]

Originally posted by Uh_Clem
I've heard of devices that gave you a mild shock that were supposed "remind" you that you're dreaming so you could control your dreams. ...snip...

Actually some people can controll (up to certain extent) their dreams. No, I don´t think its some extraordinary gift. I know at least some four people who can, and I also can do it sometimes.

Basically one recognizes its a dream and can influence it up to a certain instance.

Now, to have a device tha can do it...

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Correa Neto


Actually some people can controll (up to certain extent) their dreams. No, I don´t think its some extraordinary gift. I know at least some four people who can, and I also can do it sometimes.

Basically one recognizes its a dream and can influence it up to a certain instance.

Now, to have a device tha can do it...

Every so often I'll decide that I don't like the path of a dream and change it. At no point do I seem to conciously recognize it's a dream, though. Also, I never get to do that when it's a particularly vivid dream either which can really, really suck.

[Yahweh]

From the article:
While preparing for bed, the user mounts a photograph on the device of who should appear in the dream, selects music appropriate to the mood - fantasy, comedy, romantic story, nostalgia - and records key word prompts, such as the name of a romantic crush.
I once fell asleep during a "Who's Line Is It Anyway" marathon...

Most unusual dreams I've ever had in my life...

[rdaneel]

I've sometimes realized I was having a dream and tried to take control, but usually it just starts to fall apart and I wake up.

[Bikewer]

Many years ago, when I read Omni magazine regularly, (fine rag, BTW) they did polling of their readership on a number of topics.

One was lucid dreaming. A fairly large (25-30%) percentage of the responders claimed at least some ability to control their dreams. My wife has been able to do it for years, and for her, nightmares are the ones she can't control.

[Uh_Clem]

I've never really had control over any of my dreams, at least not in the sense that the linked article describes. There's been a few times that in the middle of a dream I realized "Okay, that monkey in the plaid vest driving the primer grey Camaro can't possibly be real. I must be dreaming."

Usually, but not always, this happened when I was very sick and had a bad fever.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by rdaneel
I've sometimes realized I was having a dream and tried to take control, but usually it just starts to fall apart and I wake up.

Too much effort makes you wake up. According to this: http://www.dreamviews.com/dreamcontrol.php

[Batman Jr.]

I've found that if you keep thinking to yourself that you want to have lucid dreams over and over again while you're trying to fall asleep every night for about a week, you'll actually begin having them regularly for a period after. Cognizance of my dreaming unfortunately for me didn't have the desired affect of "dream control." I remember yelling at this guy in my dream, "You're just a figment of my imagination. You're putty in the palm of my hand. I'm God here!" Yes, it was overly bombastic and out of character for me and the man, then blatantly wearing on his face his disgust, proceeded to unzip my chest so that my organs would fall out.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Batman Jr.
I remember yelling at this guy in my dream, "You're just a figment of my imagination. You're putty in the palm of my hand. I'm God here!" Yes, it was overly bombastic and out of character for me and the man, then blatantly wearing on his face his disgust, proceeded to unzip my chest so that my organs would fall out.

Hmmm...., shouldn't you have just commanded him to change into a car-squashed armadillo or something?

I've never done the lucid dreaming practice stuff, but I can and do control my daydreams pretty well. I've found that I can use them to memorize certain things pretty well.

And when I'm actually asleep and happen to have a nightmare, I actually find them entertaining; like laughing at a bad horror movie on TV.

[Correa Neto]

And I was afraid I was about to be bashed and labelled as woo for saying that sometimes I can controll my dreams...

You know whats good about being able to do that?

Flying. With no restrictions. Some years ago, when I dreamt of flying, I could only get to a certain height or make a number of short flights (sure, there are psichological explanations for that). Controlling the dream, there´s amost no limit. However, I never managed to reach very high altitudes, say 7000 m - some rational part of me must be saying "hey, remember, the atmosphere gets too thin" or "ever heard about escape velocity?" and pulling the breaks... Go figure...

Yeah, that other thing also ;)

[Hand Bent Spoon]

I don't believe there is any such thing as lucid dreaming. The very logic of it is problematic. How can you be conscious of the fact you're dreaming when you are by definition unconscious?

And if those devices worked, everyone would have one, no doubt.

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Correa Neto
Flying. With no restrictions. Some years ago, when I dreamt of flying, I could only get to a certain height


I have had this kind of dream, too. In my case I did not exactly control the dream. I could decide where to fly, but I would claim that it was within the dream. I think that you must be aware that it is a dream before you can control it. I also could not fly very high. I fact, I flew so low that I had danger of bruising my knees, and I was very disappointed with this miserable sort of flight!

Originally posted by Hand Bent Spoon
I don't believe there is any such thing as lucid dreaming. The very logic of it is problematic. How can you be conscious of the fact you're dreaming when you are by definition unconscious?


Maybe I dream that I dream, but it feels very much like I am half awake when this happens. Though I have never been able to control the dream, I have been able to stop it, i.e. to wake up by a conscious decision, and it is possible that I have been able to slightly influence what is happening. But mostly, a lucid dream to me feels like I can stand apart and think about what is happening. I can enjoy the dream, in the safety that it is only a dream, and I can think that this dream is just too ridiculous. I can still be trapped in the emotions and be scared of what is happening, but knowing that it is a dream helps a lot.

I do not think that it is so important if one is having a lucid dream or not. When I have it, it is after all just a dream, and it is as easily forgotten as every other dream, and while it happens, I have never thought "Wow, this must be a lucid dream".

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Hand Bent Spoon
I don't believe there is any such thing as lucid dreaming. The very logic of it is problematic. How can you be conscious of the fact you're dreaming when you are by definition unconscious?

And if those devices worked, everyone would have one, no doubt.

Dreaming is unconscious, by whose definition? If they were fully unconscious, nobody would ever be able to remember them.

And I would guess that most people have had a time, when while dreaming, they realized that they were dreaming. I certainly have; once in a falling dream I decided that I didn't want to wake up before I hit the ground -- I bounced off the ground, and bounced a couple more times before I decided to wake up.

When someone is dreaming, when someone (laying next to them in bed, for example) says a word, that word (idea or thing) will often find a way of incorporating itself into the dream. I believe this was part of the plot in one of Shakespeare's plays; so people have known about this effect for a long time.

The device in question, seems to attempt to utilize this effect.

Falling asleep in front of the TV can indeed produce weird dreams.

[kieran]

Originally posted by chrisberez
While preparing for bed, the user mounts a photograph on the device of who should appear in the dream, selects music appropriate to the mood - fantasy, comedy, romantic story, nostalgia - and records key word prompts, such as the name of a romantic crush.

While I could imagine that this thing could trigger some dream response subliminally, I fail to see why the user needs to mount a photograph on the device. Surely the mere presence of a picture can't do much during sleep(?). I'd imagine just looking at a picture or video of the person, or just thinking about them, for a while would be as effective at putting them in the "pile of things your subconscious brain is trying to make sense of".
:confused: :confused: :confused:

OR
Is the photo part a requirement so that, if anyone tried to claim that their one didn't work, the manufacturers could point at some small print and say "we only advertised it as a novelty photo-frame"?
:D :D :D

[flyboy217]

Originally posted by Hand Bent Spoon
I don't believe there is any such thing as lucid dreaming. The very logic of it is problematic. How can you be conscious of the fact you're dreaming when you are by definition unconscious?

And if those devices worked, everyone would have one, no doubt.

Hahaha. Oh my sides, they hurt. Only on such a forum as this can you find someone trying to debunk lucid dreaming.

By whose definition are people unconscious during dreams? Ah using "logic" to debunk experience (and many well-accepted clinical trials with Stephen LaBerge!).

But why am I arguing? Please carry on. I'm sure I'll get flamed for supporting such a woo-woo concept as... wait for it... lucid dreaming.;)

In case your post wasn't a parody, I'm going to pretend it was anyway.

[rebecca]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the term "lucid dreaming." I was under the impression that it just means having the ability to take control of your dreams while they're happening -- if that's the correct definition, then it's laughable that someone wouldn't "believe" in it, as Hard Bent Spoon posted.

When I was a kid, if I got sick enough that I got to stay home from school, my mom made me stay in bed, all day, with no TV. I was bored to tears, so I taught myself to control my dreams, by allowing myself to drift off to sleep while trying to remember "It's just a dream." It got to the point where I could regularly control my dreams, and it wasn't often that I had a dream that I didn't manipulate (due to forgetting that it was "just a dream").

It eventually got old, and I don't do it anymore. But it sounds like plenty of people can do it, it just takes some practice to be able to do it regularly.

This machine, however . . . I don't get the "picture" thing, either, but I think I can see how it may work otherwise. Waste of money, though, since you can do it pretty easily on your own.

[Bikewer]

It's fairly obvious that some portion of cognition remains active during dreaming, since dreams so often include external stimuli.

For instance, an alarm going off.

[Deetee]

Originally posted by rebecca


This machine, however . . . I don't get the "picture" thing, either, but I think I can see how it may work otherwise. Waste of money, though, since you can do it pretty easily on your own.


The MoeFaux jpeg I printed off failed to work last night. Will try yours tonight Rebecca....watch this space!

[rebecca]

Originally posted by Deetee



The MoeFaux jpeg I printed off failed to work last night. Will try yours tonight Rebecca....watch this space!

Hmm, maybe I'll hook up with Moe and we can produce the "Skepchick of your Dreams Machine." $$$$$$!

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Bikewer
It's fairly obvious that some portion of cognition remains active during dreaming, since dreams so often include external stimuli.

For instance, an alarm going off.

Or the Gore, no Bush, no Gore Florida issue on election night. Also if you catch me talking in my sleep, there's supposedly a chance you can get me to dream about pink bunnies according to my mother.

[TheERK]

Originally posted by Hand Bent Spoon
I don't believe there is any such thing as lucid dreaming. The very logic of it is problematic. How can you be conscious of the fact you're dreaming when you are by definition unconscious?

And if those devices worked, everyone would have one, no doubt.

Posts like this convince non-skeptics that skeptics are closed minded.

[Jyera]

With regard to the Tokyo-based Takara Co. "Dream Workshop" stand.

From the description and based on my personal experience to remember dream, the gadget does help to induce a desired dream. But it is a just a product of convenience.

At 22 percent success rate, and I feel it is a little low.
Similar result could be achieved without buying it.
At usd$136, I need much convincing.

I have investigated dreaming when I was around 12-16 yr old.

I used to will myself to remember my dreams.
I frequently find that I can remember that I had a dream but do not remember the content.

So I simply place a pen and paper on my bedside and told myself repeatedly that "I'll wake up and write down my dreams on paper quickly". That some times worked.

And my mother would tell me in the morning that I was talking while asleep, with hands held out and eyes closed shouting out for pen and paper.


- Jyera

[Jyera]

Originally posted by Bikewer
Many years ago, when I read Omni magazine regularly, (fine rag, BTW) they did polling of their readership on a number of topics.

One was lucid dreaming. A fairly large (25-30%) percentage of the responders claimed at least some ability to control their dreams. My wife has been able to do it for years, and for her, nightmares are the ones she can't control.

I found that I was not able to control what to dream in the night very well.
But I have found that I'm able to progressively control my feelings in a recuring dream.

Once I had this recurring dream. I'll walk up the stairs of a 10 storey building and jump off it. I'll wake up when I "closed" my eyes during the fall.

After a while, I could "perfect" the dream and enjoy it. I would jump off happily and enjoy the control of shutting my eyes to save myself just before "impact".

I don't remember any extremely fearful dreams. The fear of falling was in that dream, and it was recurring, so I suppose it counts as nightmare.

So I think that it is possible to control and influnence a recuring nightmare.

[belinda]

I don't think I'd be wasting my money on buying it, but I do think that external stimuli can affect dreams. I remember one extremely (at the time) scary dream I had which had a soundtrack to it....the soundtrack was of course the radio that was playing next to the bed.

I'm not sure about lucid dreams - I have had dreams which seemed to me that I "knew" I was dreaming so I would "think" cool - I want to able to do such and such - but usually that fails miserably. Maybe lucid dreamers are only dreaming that they can control their dreams if you follow the logic.

It's a bit hard to characterise - there is still a lot of debate as to what dreams actually are anyway and why the occur the way they do as well as what function (if any) that they have. Maybe when we figure that out, we'll also figure out what exactly what people who say they have lucid dreams are actually doing.

[FuzzyQuark]

I had a really strange dream a few weeks back. It was in incredible colour and detail, unlike the vague, misty types of dream I usually have. I had a feeling that I was probably dreaming, and thought that if it was a dream I could break the laws of physics and fly up into the air. I actually remember trying to fly in the dream, falling flat on my face and thinking that I couldn't be in a dream otherwise I'd be able to fly. I also tried banging my hand against a wall and remember that this hurt, which confirmed that I couldn't be in a dream. Shortly afterwards I woke up. I swear this is true, it seems to have been a one-off as I haven't had any similar dreams like this since. I can even remember the colours of buildings and trees in the dream, it was that intense.

[flyboy217]

Originally posted by belinda
Maybe lucid dreamers are only dreaming that they can control their dreams if you follow the logic.


Check out the studies of Stephen LaBerge. This was one of the stumbling blocks to getting lucid dreaming "accepted." There are ways of getting external verification that the subject is both dreaming and conscious.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by flyboy217


Hahaha. Oh my sides, they hurt. Only on such a forum as this can you find someone trying to debunk lucid dreaming.

By whose definition are people unconscious during dreams? Ah using "logic" to debunk experience (and many well-accepted clinical trials with Stephen LaBerge!).

But why am I arguing? Please carry on. I'm sure I'll get flamed for supporting such a woo-woo concept as... wait for it... lucid dreaming.;)

In case your post wasn't a parody, I'm going to pretend it was anyway.

Hmmm, unfortunately it probably wasn't a parody. After all, you have people like skepdic.com who have debunking articles about "Love", claim that daydreaming shouldn't be called an altered state of consciousness, and play term-deletion games with concepts like hypnosis.

[flyboy217]

Originally posted by Suggestologist


Hmmm, unfortunately it probably wasn't a parody. After all, you have people like skepdic.com who have debunking articles about "Love", claim that daydreaming shouldn't be called an altered state of consciousness, and play term-deletion games with concepts like hypnosis.

I've always wondered about skepdic. I did notice the entry for hypnosis changed substantially (most notably, the condescending tone disappeared) at about the same time that Harvard med school published several articles on the clinical efficacy of it. Similarly, the lucid dreaming entry at one time ended with the sentence "Yawn." It seems to have since been retracted. Perhaps they should call it cyndic.com...

[TheERK]

Originally posted by Suggestologist


Hmmm, unfortunately it probably wasn't a parody. After all, you have people like skepdic.com who have debunking articles about "Love", claim that daydreaming shouldn't be called an altered state of consciousness, and play term-deletion games with concepts like hypnosis.

Yes, damn those "people" like skepdic.com.

Seriously, what's wrong with debunking an article about love? Given it is one of the more complex and profound emotions, there's likely a lot of crap surrounding it. Are you trying to tell me that every article written about love is accurate?

Please link to what you're talking about concerning day-dreaming. Anything can be construed as an 'altered state of consciousness', like being hungry. Honestly, daydreaming is not really that altered--it's just not focused on whats going on. It's nothing like being intoxicated on some sort of drug.

Also, no clue what you're talking about with hypnosis. Perhaps you could clarify?

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by TheERK
Also, no clue what you're talking about with hypnosis. Perhaps you could clarify?

I'm talking about term-deletion. Oh, they say, there's no such thing as hypnosis; it's just suggestion ... oh, oh, and role-playing ... oh, oh, and mental absorbsion .... oh, yeah, and some other stuff -- But there's no such thing as hypnosis, no sir.

Daydreaming is referred to in the hypnosis article, at least it was the last time I read it.

In addition, his facts are simply wrong in places. I've sent e-mail, he hasn't corrected them.

He's also inconsistent when he refers to hypnagogic and hypnopompic states of consciousness (in their own articles), yet he seems to deny that there's anything at all that should be called an altered state of consciousness in the hypnosis article.

Notably, his article on NLP (which is basically a form of covert hypnosis, IMO) contains no NLP books in the references; which explains the many (accidental) misrepresentations within his article on the subject.

[TheERK]

Who ever said there was no such thing as hypnosis?

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by TheERK
Who ever said there was no such thing as hypnosis?

Lots O' uninformed skeptics. And some people who should know better; like Kreskin (the amazing one) and Spanos (author).

[Blondin]

I have never had any kind of control over what happens in a dream but there are two recurring "lucid" situations that pop up in a lot of my dreams.

The first is a sort of sense of amazement at what ever is happening in a dream. It's almost like I am experiencing the dream from 2 points of view, one of which is just a kind of spectator who is aware it is only a dream. This is kind of hard to explain but the feeling I experience at those times is a kind of wonder or awe at the inventiveness of my sub-conscious. Kind of like, "Wow, how did I come up with this?"

The other recurring situation happens when ever I try to read anything in a dream. I can't read in dreams. Signs, menus, newspapers, etc all contain gibberish in my dreams. They seem to be english words but they are disjointed and nonsensical (kind of like the nonsense strings you find at the bottom of spam emails). I sometimes feel a sense of frustration at first but then I'll realize I am dreaming and remember that I can't read in my dreams.

I am curious to know if anybody else ever has experiences like this.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Blondin
I have never had any kind of control over what happens in a dream but there are two recurring "lucid" situations that pop up in a lot of my dreams.

The first is a sort of sense of amazement at what ever is happening in a dream. It's almost like I am experiencing the dream from 2 points of view, one of which is just a kind of spectator who is aware it is only a dream. This is kind of hard to explain but the feeling I experience at those times is a kind of wonder or awe at the inventiveness of my sub-conscious. Kind of like, "Wow, how did I come up with this?"

The other recurring situation happens when ever I try to read anything in a dream. I can't read in dreams. Signs, menus, newspapers, etc all contain gibberish in my dreams. They seem to be english words but they are disjointed and nonsensical (kind of like the nonsense strings you find at the bottom of spam emails). I sometimes feel a sense of frustration at first but then I'll realize I am dreaming and remember that I can't read in my dreams.

I am curious to know if anybody else ever has experiences like this.

I've had the first and I've heard of the second. Supposedly, no one can read in dreams. Thing is, I'm pretty sure I have but I'm not entirely sure.

Then again, me and nearly everyone else I know dreams in color and we all know NO ONE does that.

[flyboy217]

Originally posted by LostAngeles


I've had the first and I've heard of the second. Supposedly, no one can read in dreams. Thing is, I'm pretty sure I have but I'm not entirely sure.


I'm always curious to know what kind of an expert can tell you what is impossible to do in dreams. As noted, skeptics for a while completely dismissed the notion of lucid dreams. I just had a lucid dream last week where I read a page out of a book. I was almost as conscious as in waking life, and I could actually make out (what I thought were) letters and words.


Then again, me and nearly everyone else I know dreams in color and we all know NO ONE does that.

Really? Who knows that no one does that? I love how everyone does something that is clearly impossible. :)

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by flyboy217
Originally posted by Lost Angeles
Then again, me and nearly everyone else I know dreams in color and we all know NO ONE does that.
Really? Who knows that no one does that? I love how everyone does something that is clearly impossible. :)

Supposedly, you dream in black and white, unless you're "creative" and thusly dream in color. I have yet to meet someone who dreams in black and white. I think it's a "well you're a very special person" myth.

I dream in color. I dream very vividly, especially around my period. I occasionally lucid dream. I have dream memory (either a dream I've had before relates to that dream or I have memories of things that happened before in the dream's timeline.) I have recurring dreams. I've woken up and still been dreaming, once to the point that I ended up going through a Sunday five times counting the actually living through the day. I've died in my dreams. I've died in my dreams and been stuck in a little limbo between sleep and awake.

Therefore, I must be either very creative, insane, or dead. :rolleyes:

If there's 3,117 registered members and the 117 are sock puppets, I'm willing to wager that at least 2,500 of us do the same or have even more fun dream stuff.

[flyboy217]

Originally posted by LostAngeles


Really? Who knows that no one does that? I love how everyone does something that is clearly impossible. :)

Supposedly, you dream in black and white, unless you're "creative" and thusly dream in color. I have yet to meet someone who dreams in black and white. I think it's a "well you're a very special person" myth.

I dream in color. I dream very vividly, especially around my period. I occasionally lucid dream. I have dream memory (either a dream I've had before relates to that dream or I have memories of things that happened before in the dream's timeline.) I have recurring dreams. I've woken up and still been dreaming, once to the point that I ended up going through a Sunday five times counting the actually living through the day. I've died in my dreams. I've died in my dreams and been stuck in a little limbo between sleep and awake.

Therefore, I must be either very creative, insane, or dead. :rolleyes:

If there's 3,117 registered members and the 117 are sock puppets, I'm willing to wager that at least 2,500 of us do the same or have even more fun dream stuff.

Yeah, that's why I was wondering. I and everyone I've talked to dreams in color... it would seem pretty boring not to :). I've been less good about remembering my dreams. When I used to cultivate lucid dreams back in the day, I'd usually have ~4/month.

I got quite lucky about 4 months ago, having several each night for a week, culminating in a night with 5-6 long ones. Mad fun :)

[mgdwcb]

I often dream I wake up and even walk around the bedroom. I soon realisie that I am `dreaming' when something unexpected happens, such as noticing an extra item of furniture or strange scene outside the window. Most odd. I don't attempt to explore further but `struggle' to wake up in bed. Perhaps I'm just a coward. :D

[Stitch]

Originally posted by TheERK


Posts like this convince non-skeptics that skeptics are closed minded.

You just can't beat a bit of generalisation can ya?

I'll accept "Posts like this convince me that "Hand Bent Spoon" is closed minded"

I don't think you are in a position to speak for non-skeptics as a whole or to assume that other skeptics hold the same view as "Hend Bent Spoon" on this topic, especially when so far it would seem to me that "Hand Bent Spoon" is the only person that seems to be discounting it.

It is this kind of evidence bending through gneralisation that leads some skeptics to generalise that belivers are all talking twaddle. :D


Dreaming in colour or black and white?? No idea, I can very rarely remember my dreams and when I can there is no visual element to them.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Stitch
Dreaming in colour or black and white?? No idea, I can very rarely remember my dreams and when I can there is no visual element to them.

Are you blind, by any chance?

[Stitch]

Originally posted by richardm


Are you blind, by any chance?
No, just odd I guess :D

[plindboe]

I have always been able to control my dreams. I was much better at it when I was a child though. Today I can wake myself from nightmares by comitting suicide. I always create a building, run up to the second floor and make a headdive. :D Well, I don't always wake, sometimes another dream will start instead, but if it turns into a nightmare too, I'll simply use the trick again.

When I dream I am also often aware that it is a dream, so I know I can do things that will have no real life consequences. In other words, I have alot of sex. :D

[rebecca]

Originally posted by Stitch


You just can't beat a bit of generalisation can ya?

I'll accept "Posts like this convince me that "Hand Bent Spoon" is closed minded"

I don't think you are in a position to speak for non-skeptics as a whole or to assume that other skeptics hold the same view as "Hend Bent Spoon" on this topic, especially when so far it would seem to me that "Hand Bent Spoon" is the only person that seems to be discounting it.


I think I can place myself in the mindset of a believer for a moment and consider what I would think of a post like that, particularly when you see how many accuse us all of being close-minded. Seeing a skeptic dismiss something out of hand with no evidence or consideration can definitely reinforce a believer's stereotypes. That, of course, does not mean that that person is correct.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by rebecca


I think I can place myself in the mindset of a believer for a moment and consider what I would think of a post like that, particularly when you see how many accuse us all of being close-minded. Seeing a skeptic dismiss something out of hand with no evidence or consideration can definitely reinforce a believer's stereotypes. That, of course, does not mean that that person is correct.

I would argue that if somebody dismisses something out of hand then they are not a skeptic (about that topic at least).

There also seems to be an opinion that if you are skeptical of one subject then you are skeptical of them all. I would generally consider myself a skeptic, I know very little about a few things and know nothing about the rest. I like to keep an open mind and as information and evidence become available on a given subject I am continually re-evaluating my view of it.

On some subjects I continue to remain skeptical (un-decided if your prefer, and seek further evidence). On other subjects I become a "beliver" based on the body of evidence; I cannot live without oxygen - on that topic I am a believer, and for a few others I have become somewhat dismissive; pink elephants exist and can fly. I won't go so far as to say it is impossible, just that I am pretty damn convinced that it is false. Should I be presented with contrary evidence then I will consider it, but I am not actively seeking further evidence on that topic.

The problem is there are stereotypes and generalisations the other way as well. I was just trying to suggest that we avoid them as much as possible, as it is all to easy to lump all "believers" in to the same, "well they accept any clap trap with no evidence" bucket.

[rebecca]

Originally posted by Stitch


I would argue that if somebody dismisses something out of hand then they are not a skeptic (about that topic at least).



I agree. The problem lies in the fact that the person who does dismiss things out of hand believes himself, and presents himself, to be a skeptic. This reinforces negative stereotypes and should be discouraged on a skeptical board.

[Humphreys]

I often have the ability to control my dreams, but usually it's quite hard to stop yourself from waking up. I also sometimes dream that I wake up in bed, and it's really hard to tell the difference. For some odd reason, after reading this somewhere, I always look at my hand in a dream to check if I'm asleep or not. It's weird because in a dream my hand is always really, really strange looking, missing fingers and blurry.

What even more odd, and I don't understand this at all, the more out of my head I am when I go to sleep, the more vivid, clear, realistic and memorable my dreams are.

When I'm really drunk for example, my dreams are fantastic.

I'm quite fascinated by them to be honest. It's amazing how you can lucid dream and not know what is going to happen, your brain just sorta springs things on you, and I even have conversations with people who say interesting things I'd never have thought of myself! ;)

Oh yeah, and I can sometimes read in a dream, but this is rare.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by rebecca


I agree. The problem lies in the fact that the person who does dismiss things out of hand believes himself, and presents himself, to be a skeptic. This reinforces negative stereotypes and should be discouraged on a skeptical board.

How do you distinguish between "dismisses stuff out of hand" and "dismisses stuff because the arguments presented are older than dirt, and were first refuted back when Christ was an altar boy, and are no more correct today than they were in the 12th century"?

For example, I had someone earlier today try to tell me that he had squared the circle. The ancient Greeks knew that this was impossible. How do you recommend that I react?

[Stitch]

Originally posted by drkitten


How do you distinguish between "dismisses stuff out of hand" and "dismisses stuff because the arguments presented are older than dirt, and were first refuted back when Christ was an altar boy, and are no more correct today than they were in the 12th century"?

For example, I had someone earlier today try to tell me that he had squared the circle. The ancient Greeks knew that this was impossible. How do you recommend that I react?

I do appreciate the fustration of hearing the same old arguments time and time again, however, if you can't stand by your principals and at least say "yes, this has been debated before here" rather than just say "that's crap" then why bother to respond at all and potentially damage the cause??

Dunno who it was, can't be bothered to look it up (but no doubt somebody will come back with the answer) but somebody said "if you can't say something useful, don't say anything at all", think this may apply here

[plindboe]

Originally posted by drkitten
For example, I had someone earlier today try to tell me that he had squared the circle. The ancient Greeks knew that this was impossible. How do you recommend that I react?

Use these words: "Show me".

[Kitty Chan]

Back in the ole school days it was like this

True dreams were after one attained the REM sleep. then waked up after and wrote down the dream before it was forgotten.

Any dreams before were not classified as actual dreams as they had inflences such as a movie or conversations during the day.

They were viewed as your brain organizing thoughts. Although both do seem similar. Ive had nights where Im thinking all night cause Im too stressed and feel Ive had no sleep. Which makes sense bacause in that situation I did not reach REM sleep. And thats where the actual rest comes in.

I also find it interesting about bad dreams that generally no one can control them.

[rebecca]

Originally posted by drkitten


How do you distinguish between "dismisses stuff out of hand" and "dismisses stuff because the arguments presented are older than dirt, and were first refuted back when Christ was an altar boy, and are no more correct today than they were in the 12th century"?

For example, I had someone earlier today try to tell me that he had squared the circle. The ancient Greeks knew that this was impossible. How do you recommend that I react?

I define "dismissing something out of hand" as dismissing before examining the evidence.

Originally posted by Kitty Chan

I also find it interesting about bad dreams that generally no one can control them.

I haven't found this to be true at all. The only dreams I control these days are the bad ones, as in stopping them before they get too bad.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by rebecca

I define "dismissing something out of hand" as dismissing before examining the evidence.


The trouble is, do you know if the person has examined the evidence (as it may well have been presented many times before)?

[rebecca]

Originally posted by Stitch


The trouble is, do you know if the person has examined the evidence (as it may well have been presented many times before)?

:rolleyes: Give me a break. Reread this thread, do five minutes of research, and make your own decision.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by rebecca


:rolleyes: Give me a break. Reread this thread, do five minutes of research, and make your own decision.

Originally posted by Hand Bent Spoon
I don't believe there is any such thing as lucid dreaming.
My emphasis

1 person, quoted above has suggested that they do not "belive" that this phenomena is genuine. The haven't exactly dismissed it out of hand.

You then moved the conversation on to dismissing things out of hand:
Originally posted by rebecca
Seeing a skeptic dismiss something out of hand with no evidence or consideration can definitely reinforce a believer's stereotypes


My decision - you change the direction of the discussion, then complain that others have wandered off topic when they follow you. So be it. :D

[Esther]

Originally posted by chrisberez
OK, I'm pretty skeptical (obviously) about whether this could actually work

One can describe "japanization" as the process of turning ]old ideas (www.suite101.com/article.cfm/science_of_dreams/82296+pythagoras+and+dreams&hl=en[/url)into simple machines. :)

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by rebecca


I haven't found this to be true at all. The only dreams I control these days are the bad ones, as in stopping them before they get too bad.

Thats why I said "generally" I knew someone said they did stop them.

When these dreams are stopped are you in the Deep sleep (REM) or is it before you wake or just as you go asleep? And if you dont mind (if you do thats fine) but how do you manage to stop them.

I have a method myself (which is probably not popular here) but I was curious how you do it.

[rebecca]

Originally posted by Stitch


My emphasis

1 person, quoted above has suggested that they do not "belive" that this phenomena is genuine. The haven't exactly dismissed it out of hand.

You then moved the conversation on to dismissing things out of hand:


My decision - you change the direction of the discussion, then complain that others have wandered off topic when they follow you. So be it. :D

OK, I can see you're just interested in a fight, since you're now twisting my words. I did not change the direction of the discussion, and I did not complain that others have wandered off-topic. Either you're delusional or argumentative, and I'm guessing the latter. And a little smiley at the end of your post? Nice touch. Here's one for you: :rolleyes: Go trolling elsewhere.

Originally posted by Kitty Chan


Thats why I said "generally" I knew someone said they did stop them.

When these dreams are stopped are you in the Deep sleep (REM) or is it before you wake or just as you go asleep? And if you dont mind (if you do thats fine) but how do you manage to stop them.

I have a method myself (which is probably not popular here) but I was curious how you do it.


Hi Kitty,

If you're curious, whenever I have a bad dream, I would either just change it to a good dream using the same technique of dreaming in which I change good dreams, or failing that, I would simply wake myself up.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by rebecca


Hi Kitty,

If you're curious, whenever I have a bad dream, I would either just change it to a good dream using the same technique of dreaming in which I change good dreams, or failing that, I would simply wake myself up.

So, you dont have dreams take control and you wake up scared or upset?

Also, I wasnt quite sure what was meant by lucid and I surfed a bit so I understand its something one practices to control your dreams.

But if thats how it works does it not interfer with your regular sleep cycle because you are not in a deep sleep (which your body needs) ??:confused:

[gnome]

My understanding of "lucidity" is not that it represents control, but awareness of the dream as a dream. An important first step in control, for otherwise you wouldn't think to try to control things.

I have found that it is difficult to achieve but happens to me sometimes. For example, I am aware that when reading text in dreams, that it rarely comes up the same way twice. But I tend to "forget" that when I am actually dreaming and just get confused.

At those times when I do achieve lucidity, control is slippery... but it is a matter of "expecting" things into happening. Basically, whatever you think about enough, tends to happen in some way. But not necessarily the way you wanted it to.

The principle benefit of lucidity to me is somewhat of a primitive appeal: I realize that nothing can truly harm me, and that there are no predictable consequences for my actions. So I can do pretty much whatever I want until the dream falls into incoherence, or turns unpleasant. A truly nasty turn tends to wake me up instinctively, whether I am lucid or not.

[Kitty Chan]

gnome

What Im also wondering then what would be the difference between this and day dreaming ? Other than the obvious laying down and sleeping.

As I understand you would expect (or control) things to happen but perhaps you actually drop into sleep and the subconcious takes over and then you realise this then wake up again just enough to keep your dream going the way you want??

Im trying to reconcile this with what I said earlier about dreams only being actual dreams when you lose yourself to deep sleep the rest while entertaining are not actual dreams because they have been influenced by the events in daily life. How it all fits together or if there has been new discoveries Im not aware of.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
When these dreams are stopped are you in the Deep sleep (REM) or is it before you wake or just as you go asleep? .
Sorry to jump in here late, but REM is not deep sleep. We initially start with stage 1 (light sleep), go into deeper stages from 1 to 4 and then back up to what would normally be 1, light sleep again. But we go into REM instead. Our eyes show rapid eye movements under the lids and our brains show EEG activity characteristic of a person awake.
When we go into dreams right off in stage 1 upon first going to sleep, we get hypnogic experiences. You dream that you''re awake, but you're not. Same with just before you wake up. These are hypnopompic experiences. They are stage 1 (light sleep) phenomena.
I've never had any of these, but my wife has, and I believe her.

[Taffer]

When I was younger, I read (or possibly was told, but it doesn't really matter) that you could control your dreams if you realised that you were dreaming. Thinking of this, as I was going to sleep every night, I would repeat to myself "Am I asleep?", and thus reply "no". My theory was, if I did this enough, I would continue to repeat it to myself after I had fallen asleep, and would then be able to answer "yes". It seemed to work, because for a long time I often had dreams that I could control, to some extent or another. For example, I could make people I knew appear (;)), and other objects. I once wanted a missile launcher, so I thought "I have a missile launcher", and it appeared. Unfortunatly, I can never fire weapons in my dreams. For some reason the triggers are always really stiff, and don't work right.

These kinds of dreams have stopped now that I more grown, and I can not remember my dreams as often as I once did.

I find that my 'best' dreams are during the late morning, if I am asleep with the sun shining on me, making me very hot. For some reason I always have interesting, and very vivid dreams, at times like this.

I have also had some really odd dreams. Once I was dreaming that I was at school (high school at that time), and was being taught etc just like real school. Then I woke up, and had to go to school. It was very odd, and I was annoyed at my dream that I had to go to school twice in the same day.

Another dream of mine, I dreamed that there was the brother of a friend of mine with me. I realised that I was dreaming, and tried to convince him that he was, for some reason, in my dream. But he refused to believe me. Very odd...

By far my most favourite dream was a fairly recent one, in which I was fighting against a hoard of Undead. Some kind of Zombie like thing, as well as evel 'Nightmare' like dogs (as in, the evil horse) and other abominations. I knew that, for some reason, if you were wounded by a Zombie, you would turn into one of them. I fought them for a while, and finally I was 'turned' (during this time, the coolest phrases I've come up with appeared..."The Axe must Fall" and "The Blood must Flow"...;) ), and then became an evil Zombie, running around the world killing the 'good' people and making them more Zombies. It was a great bloody dream, kind of like a computer game mixed in with a movie, and it lasted for ages. It was also interesting playing the 'bad' guy, for once.

Unfortunatly, I don't have dreams like that often. My brother tells me that he often has strange and interesting dreams. For example, he once traveled to another planet that was alive, and he had a huge debate with it about the meaning of life. (?!) He tells me that he often has dreams where he meets aliens, and travels to other dimensions. I wish I had dreams like that :(.

I think that creative dreaming can come from external sources (as my brother reads a lot, maintly SciFi), and I think that reading books and/or watching movies right before you go to sleep can help you have interesting dreams.

I'm not sure how relevant all this is, but I think it would neat if we could discover what it is that makes us have strange and interesting dreams, and thus everyone could have movie like dreams, all the time. There would be a lot less sexual crimes, if that were the case. Want to rape someone? Just dream about it ;).

[gnome]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
gnome

What Im also wondering then what would be the difference between this and day dreaming ? Other than the obvious laying down and sleeping.


Important differences:

1- you're actually getting rest, so it's like getting more entertainment in your life without losing sleep.

2 - With daydreaming I have to imagine EVERYTHING that happens. In one of these "lucid" dreams there are unexpected stimuli.

Personally I think that most dreams are a random collection of stimuli that your brain tries to make sense of by fitting into a timeline.

I also half suspect that the ones you remember happen almost instantaneously as you wake.

[Kopji]

I also half suspect that the ones you remember happen almost instantaneously as you wake.

That's an interesting idea. I remember once that I had what seemed a very long dream in what turned out to be a 60 second or so time span. Darned I can't remember the dream though. Most dreams seem "1:1".

I'm pretty skeptical, and I can control some dreams so it must not have much to do with belief or not.
Humm, practice? I went through some RL problems where I started dreaming of falling from a great height. I'd wake up when I went splat. (Nice, I guess those are nightmares). One night I flew instead of going splat. I can do that at will now, but don't have the falling dreams as much either. (The nightmare gods are pissed?) I tried drowning next, but I can breathe underwater now too (Yeah, analyze me at will) :D

I have another variation where I am falling or drowning but have people with me I can't save. (Sweet, get that couch ready).

Anyway, the Japanese device sounds like it makes specific claims we could test by experiment. I skeptical about the "timer" thing, I would think it would need to know when you began the various states.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey

Sorry to jump in here late, but REM is not deep sleep.

Right Im sorry its been awhile, I was getting it mixed up a bit found a site that has it straight if one wants


http://sleepdisorderchannel.com/stages/


also came across this one about dreaming and lucidity

http://www.lucidity.com/SleepAndCognition.html

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by flyboy217


If only there were such things as lucid dreams.

If only it were possible to learn to have them.



I suppose this is an in-joke from another thread.

Was someone suggesting that lucid dreams did not exists or that it were not possible to learn to have them?

[Marian]

Regarding lucid dreaming. I had a sociology professor in college that had us do a number of very cool things; one of those things was a technique to achieve lucid dreaming, which I did.

I'll explain how it was done here. I've told other people how to do this, and it's worked for them. The average time seems pretty short...though it took me a few weeks. (Many people have done this in days, so perhaps I was just 'slow' ;)) Though some others in the class never managed to do it, most were quicker than I.

This is just from memory, I'm sure he explained it much better, but I've told other people this, and it's seemed to work for them, so it's a good enough explaination I guess. :D

Look at your hand, the back of your hand as it faces you. Study it. Don't concentrate really hard or anything, just stay focused that when you're dreaming you want to try to look at your hand. Say in your mind as you do this something like "Okay this is what I want to do in my dream, I want to see my hand".

Do this randomly throughout the day as you remember to do it, or when you think of it. Spend a couple minutes doing it. Then spend several minutes doing it each night before you go to sleep.

Now you can read on for what will happen, or you can be surprised. (The professor let us be surprised, and didn't tell us what would happen. Which was kinda cool.)













SPOILER AHOY!

What ends up happening is in your dream at some point in time after doing this (took me a couple weeks) you'll see your hand, and remember "OH! I'm supposed to look at my hand!" At that moment you will become lucid in the dream. In other words you're conscious, but still dreaming.

I still can remember vividly what happened for me when this occurred. I was walking up a staircase in a courthouse. I looked and saw my hand on the railing and thought "YES! I did it!!! I'm supposed to see my hand" and then realized that I was dreaming, yet completely aware. I touched the stone wall, which was cool and hard...just like stone. I was amazed that it was so real. I touched the wood of the railing, and it too felt very real. I looked around at the other people, and again, it was all very real, yet I knew it was a dream. The awareness seemed to last subjectively only a few minutes, then I fell back into the dream, and was no longer consciously aware, but merely dreaming as normal.

When I woke up, I recalled it, and also falling back into the dream. It was pretty neat.

I was told that basically continuing to do that, and by staying focused you could achieve long periods of lucidity and even dream control (where you could control the enviroment, or themes, basically be a god of the dreamworld or whatever lol). I know people who have said that they do so. However at the time (I was young), I was concerned about some things, and had no answers (actually still don't have any). I think that in dreaming our subconscious works out a lot of kinks. I've gotten good insight from my dreams...not in a woo-woo way, but in a 'hmm that's a different way of looking at that issue' sort of way. Obviously not ALL the time or anything either. Anyway, I wondered if someone was able to achieve a constant lucid state, would that somehow effect that process? I don't know. Perhaps people still have dreams in which they have no control, and only remember those in which they do. So that was one concern.

Another is it's an awful lot of work, and I enjoy the random patterns of dreams, the surprise, and the interesting things that my subconscious comes up with that I don't think my conscious mind could. :)

As I've gotten older, I also notice that I remember fewer dreams. Unless I wake up in the middle of one, or it's especially vivid in some fashion, I don't usually remember it. Even then, I often forget it shortly after waking anyway, unless it really stands out.

It was an interesting experience though, and I thought it was pretty cool to touch objects and was amazed at the realism. (I guess somehow I expected it to be different hehe). And perhaps it's something that other people would be interested in trying. It can also be effective in breaking chronic nightmares, in that if someone can alter the events of the chronic nightmare and change it, it often no longer bothers them.

A friend of mine is working on that right now actually. She's pregnant and is having a chronic nightmare in which she drives away abandoning her son. She believes that the dream is (in essense) about her concern that her son will feel left out with the new baby. But even after addressing those concerns, the nightmare was happening every night, disprupting her sleep and severely upsetting her. I told her about lucid dreaming and what I had learned about it, and she was able to do it in 3 nights. (Told you I was slow heh) and though she too was only briefly lucid, it gave her a sense of control. She feels if she can alter the pattern (such as going back to her son) it will resolve the nightmares completely. I haven't talked with her in a couple weeks about it, so I'm not sure where she's at with it, or if she's accomplished that or not. However even just gaining that consciousness helped tremendously, because it gave her a sense of control.

Because it is, after all, just a dream. :)