Rapture Ready = Irresponsibility?

[dmarker]

Let me explain that my mind works in mysterious ways even to myself, so comments and questions are welcome.

I play D & D and one of my characters is a lawful good halfling outrider who swore to protect all halflings. One of our encounters was with a naga (a mythical critter that's a huge man-snake) who had plans for world domination. The naga explained that his plans wouldn't come into fruitition until after everyone that we could ever know was dead. My lawful good character mindful of the phrase all halflings was very opposed to his plans for she swore to protect them all, even if they wouldn't be born for hundreds of years after her demise.

Since my characters are reflections of certain aspects of myself, I pondered upon this thought of responibility to future generations and what it meant. Even though I'm just one person and not an important one in public areas like politicians or scientists, I do have a responsibility to future generations. I don't know how many would agree that they too have a responsibility to future generations but from reading other posts I would say that skeptics in general feel this responsibility as well.

Which brings me to the rapture ready folk. When you believe that god will destry the whole world and remake it, why be responsible to future generations? Why bother ensuring a secular education for children? Why not consume and toss away when god is going to clean it all up like some deified janitor? Why not pump out child after child despite our burgeoning population problems? Why think about how the US culture shapes the world and how the world shapes the US culture and what the future may bring for both?

To me, the rapture ready folk reject this responsibility that we all share. Perhaps that's why they embrace the Apocalypse mythology so tightly. They do not want the responsibility of future generations.

[scribble]

What you say seems insightful and may be true - but it also seems true to me that they maintain this focus on armageddon because they cannot cope with this life -- much less future generations' lives.

(Edit: You get 100xp for describing a philosophical thought in terms of D&D)

[Piscivore]

That's funny, I was just wondering (since I have to fly tomorrow) whether it is ethical for someone who believes in the Rapture to take a position of responsibility such as Commercial Pilot, or Cardiac Surgeon. :)

[Z]

Ugh... another question on job applications.

"18e. Do you believe in the Rapture, and are you prepared for Armageddon? Yes O No O"

I suddenly see entire organizations geared to fighting Rapture Ready Discrimination....

It's all going dark! Ethel!! Bring me my pills!!!

[dmarker]

Originally posted by scribble
What you say seems insightful and may be true - but it also seems true to me that they maintain this focus on armageddon because they cannot cope with this life -- much less future generations' lives.

(Edit: You get 100xp for describing a philosophical thought in terms of D&D)

Just 100xp!!!

Seriously though, you have a point about the RR not being able to cope with life as it is. Rapture reminds me of deus ex machina, of Greek and Roman plays where a seat was literally lowered onto the stage representing a god rescuing the hero. Probably where the idea came from.

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Piscivore
That's funny, I was just wondering (since I have to fly tomorrow) whether it is ethical for someone who believes in the Rapture to take a position of responsibility such as Commercial Pilot, or Cardiac Surgeon. :)

I don't know. I'd be really worried about the cardiac surgeon since you have to study biology and these people are definitely young earth creationists.

[Radrook]

A parachute in the luggage area above the seat should prove tranquilizing to those concerned. A seat next to the escape hatch should also prove reassuring. Just try to maneuver the chute so that there is no unforseen unpleasant collision between yourself and those happily on the way up.

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Radrook
A parachute in the luggage area above the seat should prove tranquilizing to those concerned. A seat next to the escape hatch should also prove reassuring. Just try to maneuver the chute so that there is no unforseen unpleasant collision between yourself and those happily on the way up.


No, I don't think the rapture will actually happen, just that those who believe that it will are unable to cope.

As for the parachute, you wouldn't survive parachuting from that altitude.

[Radrook]

Originally posted by dmarker



No, I don't think the rapture will actually happen, just that those who believe that it will are unable to cope.

As for the parachute, you wouldn't survive parachuting from that altitude.

It was meant as a joke.
Sometimes jokes take liberties of that kind.
Furthermore no specific altitude was specified.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by dmarker


I don't know. I'd be really worried about the cardiac surgeon since you have to study biology and these people are definitely young earth creationists.

That didn't stop a friend's roommate from studying evolutionary biology as his major.

[Temporal Renegade]

I'm still trying to reconcile the 'fact' that the bodies of the 'saved' are to be taken up for Judgement & all that. I thought Heaven was only for your souls; why do your bodies have to go as well?


http://img22.photobucket.com/albums/v66/Tremas/Miscellaneous/rapture.jpg

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
I'm still trying to reconcile the 'fact' that the bodies of the 'saved' are to be taken up for Judgement & all that. I thought Heaven was only for your souls; why do your bodies have to go as well?


The residents of heaven are not bodiless.



1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Radrook


The residents of heaven are not bodiless.



1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Hm. I'd interpret that as there being no physical bodies in heaven, though, which is why the distinction is made between the "Natural" body and the "Spiritual" body. So you should be able to dump your natural body when you get raised up.

Let's face it, that's what you'd want to happen, because a lot of physical bodies are pretty worn out and decrepit by the time they die.

[Radrook]

Originally posted by richardm


Hm. I'd interpret that as there being no physical bodies in heaven, though, which is why the distinction is made between the "Natural" body and the "Spiritual" body. So you should be able to dump your natural body when you get raised up.

Let's face it, that's what you'd want to happen, because a lot of physical bodies are pretty worn out and decrepit by the time they die.

In other words, you blot out the part about there being spiritual bodies. What gives you the authority to do that?

[richardm]

Originally posted by Radrook


In other words, you blot out the part about there being spiritual bodies. What gives you the authority to do that?

I'm not quite sure how you got that from what I wrote. I didn't blot out the spiritual bodies part.

Paul makes a distinction between the "Natural" body and the "Spiritual" body, which obviously implies that they are different things. The Spiritual body - i.e. your soul - is what goes to heaven, while the corporeal bits of you stay behind.

You'll have no physical presence in heaven, it's all spiritual. Which is, as I say, surely a good thing, since physical things wear out, and eternity is a long time.

[Radrook]

Originally posted by richardm


I'm not quite sure how you got that from what I wrote. I didn't blot out the spiritual bodies part.

Paul makes a distinction between the "Natural" body and the "Spiritual" body, which obviously implies that they are different things. The Spiritual body - i.e. your soul - is what goes to heaven, while the corporeal bits of you stay behind.

You'll have no physical presence in heaven, it's all spiritual. Which is, as I say, surely a good thing, since physical things wear out, and eternity is a long time.

Sorry.
I thought you were saying that those going tro heaven have no bodies at all in heaven. Which of course would go contrary to having a spiritual body. Just a simple misunderstanding.

God Bless.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by dmarker
Let me explain that my mind works in mysterious ways even to myself, so comments and questions are welcome.

Which brings me to the rapture ready folk. When you believe that god will destry the whole world and remake it, why be responsible to future generations? Why bother ensuring a secular education for children? Why not consume and toss away when god is going to clean it all up like some deified janitor? Why not pump out child after child despite our burgeoning population problems? Why think about how the US culture shapes the world and how the world shapes the US culture and what the future may bring for both?

To me, the rapture ready folk reject this responsibility that we all share. Perhaps that's why they embrace the Apocalypse mythology so tightly. They do not want the responsibility ofuture generations.

Well, heres a answer, generally people assume the rapture ready folk are as you say. I will go out on that limb (very cat like actually) If they are more concerned with the rapture then they are wrong. Why?

Simply, because God states being stewarts of the planet and taking care of it and what you have. And to be taking care of those around you. To a christian it is fine to think of future things and but now is what is more important.

Dont worry about tomorrow it will care of itself. Each day has enough troubles of its own to deal with.

(paraphrase a la Kitty)

[Kopji]

Some of the concern was expressed a long time ago by James Watt (Secretary of Interior back in the Reagan Age). Now passed into myth and glory.

Paraphrased, the comment was something along the lines that we should not worry about too many future generations because the Lord would be coming soon.

Why worry about the environment if the world will be ending soon?

I would have to agree on a couple points though -

1: The idea that we are merely stewards of our environment, and not here to dominate it is a fine religious message. So why don't we hear it more?

2: A website dedicated to the 'rapture' is an ultimately self defeating and inward expression of Christianity.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Kopji


1: The idea that we are merely stewards of our environment, and not here to dominate it is a fine religious message. So why don't we hear it more?


Hey Kopji

Yes it is a fine religious message but to a christian well, put it this way if one wants to follow what God taught then this is one of the things He said to do.

Why:con2: isnt it taught hmm I think it is at least in some of the circles Ive been in, it was taught.

I suspect apathy plays a role, and an amount of stubborness to listen. One is too busy with life to really care until it affects you directly.

And just as it is in church and in families, work etc a few do the work of the rest of them and generally dont get the credit they are due. So, the work they do also does not get the notice. And its not headlines except at Christmas to mention the work being done for the homeless, or whatever.

Face it, outside the church its not headline material unless a christian is hunting a deer. Sounds harsh but media is all about whats sensational. In faith, science, (Why JREF is here) medicine anything. But then again people buy it too, the mob is fickle.

Thinking about it the only way any of us actually have a idea of how people actually think is by talking, seeing one another, visiting, even through these forums. At least (most times) we are talking not just being fed what some news team wants us to know.

Thinking is a good thing, something else God mentioned actually not to believe everything you hear, but to test it for truth.

ps

As for the environment thats what the not planting every 7th year was all about to give the earth a rest. Alot of things are written off as ritual but actually are practical.

[Radrook]

The industrial Revoluton and Scientific Revolution that changed the face of world society both began in Christian Europe where the Rapture idea was believed.

[dmarker]

I wasn't talking about all Christians. Just the ones convinced that the Rapture is due any day now.

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Radrook
The industrial Revoluton and Scientific Revolution that changed the face of world society both began in Christian Europe where the Rapture idea was believed.

I wonder how many indrustrialists and scientists actually believed in the Rapture?

[Radrook]

Originally posted by dmarker


I wonder how many indrustrialists and scientists actually believed in the Rapture?

Don't wonder.
Research and present the evidence.

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Radrook


Don't wonder.
Research and present the evidence.

Why should I? It was you who brought up the Industrial and Scientific revolutions as if religion had anything to do with it.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by dmarker
I wasn't talking about all Christians. Just the ones convinced that the Rapture is due any day now.

If this is directed to me then Yes I was pretty sure you meant the ones that are looking everyday. Yea it would be great then I wouldnt have to do month end :)

But I kid, it is a genuine problem we are not to get too wound up in the end times things. True there is a blessing promised to those that read Revelations. But it is to educate us to think and try to understand what is going on around us. My guess is thats the blessing.

Those that are centered on end times (and its easy to do) can lose sight of here and now which is always more important. I guess its a balance of sorts.

[Radrook]

Originally posted by dmarker


Why should I? It was you who brought up the Industrial and Scientific revolutions as if religion had anything to do with it.


Religion did have a great deal to do with it.
That is basic Western History fact.



The Protestant work ethic postulates that prosperity and advancement on earth is irrefutable proof that a person or a nation is being blessed by God. Protestantism filled the need for a religious view which would allow Christians to both hold the hope of a rapture while taking full advantage of the new scientific discoveries and industrial Revolution. Otherwise the Catholic view of otherworldliness would have stifled progress in all Europe countries as it did in the ones in which it manages to keep its religious grip.

BTW
My statement was in response to the accusation that expectation that God will keep his promises causes people to sit down and wait without thinking of progress on this earth. He who accuses should substantiate if required or requested to do so. Otherwise it is mere opinion.


Ever sing "God Bless America?"

[Virgil]

Originally posted by Radrook






The Protestant work ethic postulates that prosperity and advancement on earth is irrefutable proof that a person or a nation is being blessed by God. Protestantism filled the need for a religious view which would allow Christians to both hold the hope of a rapture while taking full advantage of the new scientific discoveries and industrial Revolution. Otherwise the Catholic view of otherworldliness would have stifled progress in all Europe countries as it did in the ones in which it manages to keep its religious grip.






wasn't max Weber and his protestant work ethic completely debunked by later scientists. thats what my soc. prof said...


Virgil the non rapture kitty

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Radrook



Religion did have a great deal to do with it.
That is basic Western History fact.



The Protestant work ethic postulates that prosperity and advancement on earth is irrefutable proof that a person or a nation is being blessed by God. Protestantism filled the need for a religious view which would allow Christians to both hold the hope of a rapture while taking full advantage of the new scientific discoveries and industrial Revolution. Otherwise the Catholic view of otherworldliness would have stifled progress in all Europe countries as it did in the ones in which it manages to keep its religious grip.

BTW
My statement was in response to the accusation that expectation that God will keep his promises causes people to sit down and wait without thinking of progress on this earth. He who accuses should substantiate if required or requested to do so. Otherwise it is mere opinion.


Ever sing "God Bless America?"

But the Protestant religions were started by an advance in medieval technology, the printing press. True, the steam governor came after Protestantism, but don't put those medieval Catholics down quite so hard. They invented the horseshoe, the clock, the windmill, the water wheel, crop rotation, chimneys, flying buttresses, the whiffle tree, the spring loaded carriage, the magnetic compass and of course the printing press.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761557685_2/Technology.html

[Radrook]

Originally posted by dmarker


But the Protestant religions were started by an advance in medieval technology, the printing press. True, the steam governor came after Protestantism, but don't put those medieval Catholics down quite so hard. They invented the horseshoe, the clock, the windmill, the water wheel, crop rotation, chimneys, flying buttresses, the whiffle tree, the spring loaded carriage, the magnetic compass and of course the printing press.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761557685_2/Technology.html


Sorry I did not mean to come across as biased.
Certainly, advances in scienbce did occur within the Catholic countries which contributed and finally led to the Industrial Revolution.

BTW

What on earth is a Whiffle Tree?

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Radrook



Sorry I did not mean to come across as biased.
Certainly, advances in scienbce did occur within the Catholic countries which contributed and finally led to the Industrial Revolution.

BTW

What on earth is a Whiffle Tree?

A device that goes between two horses to harness them both to a cart.

[dmarker]

sorry for the double post. I request a mod to remove this when they get around to it.

[Z]

A fact so important, he had to post it twice.

I don't think I've ever heard of that - fascinating. You learn something pointless every day! Oh, wait, that's not the expression... :D

[Radrook]

Originally posted by dmarker


A device that goes between two horses to harness them both to a cart.

Of course such simple inventions, discoveries or adoption of other people's ideas might seem inconsequential from our modern standpoint. But they were not. They had very profound impacts on European society.


For example, the employment of the iron hoe caused a rise in crop production which in turn contributed to the support of a larger European population.

Now, when population grows the problem is that since land area is finite. No new land is added to accomodate the growth.

Which means that the competition for limited resources will increase. Such competition can lead and has lead to interpersonal conflict.-to interregional conflict-to international conflicts. Such conflict can lead to very bloody wars.

No invention should be viewed as unimportant.
Instead, we should look for its social/historical effects in order to determne its true significance in the wider picture.

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Radrook


Of course such simple inventions, discoveries or adoption of other people's ideas might seem inconsequential from our modern standpoint. But they were not. They had very profound impacts on European society.


For example, the employment of the iron hoe caused a rise in crop production which in turn contributed to the support of a larger European population.

Now, when population grows the problem is that since land area is finite. No new land is added to accomodate the growth.

Which means that the competition for limited resources will increase. Such competition can lead and has lead to interpersonal conflict.-to interregional conflict-to international conflicts. Such conflict can lead to very bloody wars.

No invention should be viewed as unimportant.
Instead, we should look for its social/historical effects in order to determne its true significance in the wider picture.

True, and culture is shaped by its inventions both past and present. One could almost say that the Enlightenment had to happen along with other philosophies leading to modern society.

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Virgil





wasn't Max Weber and his Protestant work ethic completely debunked by later scientists. that's what my Soc. prof said...


Virgil the non rapture kitty

Our professor taught us differently. But that was many years ago and Social Science advances just as the natural sciences do.

In any case, Calvin's influence was significant.
It did cause the Protestants to be more earthly minded than Catholics.

Whether that justifies attributing the subsequent capitalistic system of worker exploitation to Calvin is debatable I suppose.
I personally tend to see it that way.

But there are differences of opinion of course.
If indeed the latest research does prove that Weber was wrong and the consensus is that it does, then the course of wisdom in relation to student academic achievement would be to go with the flow in this case.



Max Weber - ... He saw that the major change was the rise of Protestantism, with values and beliefs which contributed to the industrial revolution. ... ...
http://bartle.disted.camosun.bc.ca/soc-webr.htm

[daenku32]

I'd give Luther and the Protestants credit for starting the 500 year long process of making Christianity a 'tolerant' religion. Not that they necessarily wanted it. But because Catholics needed to learn to live next to a Protestant neighbor even though they were at first a simple renegade minority. So laws were put in place to protect diversity.

Unfortunately many Christian fail to expand that tolerance to other religions. They'll tolerate other denominations but the moment a person, that they personally do not know, of totally different religion begins to use the same powers, their knees jerk right off..

This is why I think every Christian should meet and personally get to know at least one person of every other religion.

[daenku32]

"He argued that the new values of Protestantism, frugality, independent thinking and self reliance, were values and attitudes necessary to the creation and growth of capitalist thinking and for actions necessary for the industrial revolution. "

Protestantism is required??

Excuse while I laugh at the poor attempt at proselytizing and/or excusing protestantism from the list of banned religions in 19th century europe.

[Kitty Chan]

why was it banned ?

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
why was it banned ?

The Catholic Church at one time had a monopoly on religoiious authority in Europe. If it felt that a new religion was a threat to this monoploly it would imediately begin making sure that Catholics did not begin getting any ideas of joining such denominations. Actually, they ween't viewed as denom inations or variations of Christianity as they are now. They wre viewed as aspostasies from the teachings of the true church and therefore met the critteria for being attacked both viia official church prouncements or even militarily.

One of the reasons for the attempted incvasion of England was that the Church attempted to use Spain to bring England back intro the religious fold by force. England of course was aifoing other Protestant countries which were in affront to the Church. So conquest of England would have removed a very vital support from these countries.

Spain being Catholic and the strongest military force in Europe at that time felt it its obligatin to go along with whatever the Catholic Church demmanded and therefore committed itself to its religious wars squandering all it had gained via its New World provinces in the process.

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Piscivore
That's funny, I was just wondering (since I have to fly tomorrow) whether it is ethical for someone who believes in the Rapture to take a position of responsibility such as Commercial Pilot, or Cardiac Surgeon. :)

As long as it's not an evolutionist who might get the hankering he's an ape and forget how to handle the controles your Okays.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Radrook


The Catholic Church at one time had a monopoly on religoiious authority in Europe.

right I remember now I read a historical fiction about Jan Hus who was defying the church saying that Christ has said all could be priests, and just like when Christ was here the priests didnt like their jobs going away.

I never knew how spain worked into it all.

Yet again another example of forgetting to follow instructions. :)

I wonder if it didnt all start by mans insensate desire for a king, someone to handle everything, so everyone can get back to the way it was and let the government handle it.

Which getting a bit back to the thread that desire will lead us as a whole into the fray again. And history will repeat as some will figure it out and others wont.

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan


right I remember now I read a historical fiction about Jan Hus who was defying the church saying that Christ has said all could be priests, and just like when Christ was here the priests didnt like their jobs going away.

I never knew how spain worked into it all.

Yet again another example of forgetting to follow instructions. :)

I wonder if it didnt all start by mans insensate desire for a king, someone to handle everything, so everyone can get back to the way it was and let the government handle it.

Which getting a bit back to the thread that desire will lead us as a whole into the fray again. And history will repeat as some will figure it out and others wont.

Spain was for a time used as the military arm of the Catholic Church. Any time a Pope felt the need for military action he made his desires known to the king of Spain. Being a devout Catholic, of course, he felt he had to obey the Church's wishes.

Actually, the cvhurch's authority went so far as to parcel out spehere of influence to Portugal and Spain in the New World. A map was provided and the Church drew a line oif demarcation. That's how Brazil became Portugese.

That was the authority that began to dwindle with the gradual emergence of Protestantism and the reason why the Catholic Church sought to bring them back into the fold via force.

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Radrook


As long as it's not an evolutionist who might get the hankering he's an ape and forget how to handle the controles your Okays.

So why do you believe that evolutionists want to act like apes?

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Radrook


Spain was for a time used as the military arm of the Catholic Church. Any time a Pope felt the need for military action he made his desires known to the king of Spain. Being a devout Catholic, of course, he felt he had to obey the Church's wishes.

Actually, the cvhurch's authority went so far as to parcel out spehere of influence to Portugal and Spain in the New World. A map was provided and the Church drew a line oif demarcation. That's how Brazil became Portugese.

That was the authority that began to dwindle with the gradual emergence of Protestantism and the reason why the Catholic Church sought to bring them back into the fold via force.

Interesting, that would also tie some more things together. I always wondered why there was such strong representaion in spanish culture of the catholic church.

Why there is such strong feelings towards catholic church in general. That makes the book I read about Jan Hus more interesting because it was corroporation he was fighting. He very much wanted to stop the church where it was headed and return to the roots if you will.

As for the Churches wishes thats why I liked my old pastor he kept saying dont believe me look it up yourself and decide. Too bad the spanish didnt think that way. But it was a different time I guess.

Actually on that topic of inventions the printing press was another marvy step forward along with the common man learning to read. All that put scriptures back in the hands of the common man. Who no longer need the priest to read for him or interpert it either.

Its interesting how things link together throughout time.