Open letter to God

[kittynh]

As it is well known that I am one of the few Christians on this site, I'd like to try a test of the power of prayer. This is only a test....

Dear GOD,

As you know, I have always been a good Christian, except for those donations to JREF. Part of my Christian belief has been never praying, wishing or hoping (too hard, I mean other than joking) that an enemy of mine would be hurt or killed or even get a parking ticket. I've not participated in religious services or churches that curse their enemies or even watched the 700 Club when they prayed for Saddam to die.

But now, just as a test mind you, I'm wondering if you could give someone leprosy, a really fast acting type that would make their fingers fall off before they could even get a good diagnosis...

Not just anyone, but someone I pick!

Just wondering, hey, there could be some money in it for us! And for you GOD, I'm willing to go 80-20 (hey, YOU get the 80!!!)

Just kidding, don't hit me with a lightening bolt.

Kitty"

[7th sextile]

Kitty:
Just heard from God,she said not to worry,he only
uses the "lightening" bolts on the morbidly obese,
and then only if they ask.

Also wanted to let you know She doesn't do
leprosy much anymore.(It's a bit of a sore point
from NT days-"Hey Son,did you write down your
autobio and words of wisdom yet?"
"Can't someone else do it?Every time I turn
around-another freakin' LEPER!!!"

yr faithless correspondent
7th

[Blue Monk]

You know kitty, you really could have just sent me a PM.

[Navigator]

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/thalidomide/lep.jpg (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/avatar.php?userid=3526&dateline=1070238818)

[wittgenst3in]

Navigator that photo will haunt my dreams untill the end of time.

Edit: No offence to those with a debilitaing disease. Seeing medical conditions always makes me queesy.

[kittynh]

Navigator, just on the offchange that you are GOD, wrong person!

But yeah, that's the effect I'm kind of going for...

Mind you could this person win the lottery also? I mean one of those big lotteries? That way I wouldn't feel so badly.

You can leave the nose and all that.

Blue Monk - sorry, I think it was some other prayer that I did that took care of your...well, you know, I used the same prayer once on Pool Boy (oh, when all that Christian power goes to my HEAD).

In a way, maybe the fact that prayer doesn't work is a good thing!

[Rose]

Dear God:

As you know, I do not believe in you. However, to be fair to the christians with whom I discuss religion, I have decided to do as they suggest and pray. Not just pray, but to pray for something specific. You see, the christians say that if you ask, you will receive proof that You exist. Now, You know I have a slightly different idea of what proof is. They also ask me all the time what evidence it would take to convince me. I think that my request/demand/prayer will provide anyone and everyone concerned with the evidence that You, the Christian God. is the " real" God. If I don't hear from you in a week, then I'll have to consider attempting this again, with prayers to other Dieties, until I get the right one. After all, an immortal soul is a terrible thing to waste...

Oh, what did I wish to ask? It's Simple God. I wish you to take 25 terminal patients, and the end stage of their disease process, and cure them. Of course, You will know which 25 have adequate documentation of their disease processes to convince even a skeptic like me. Oh, and the cures should occur in a 24 hour period, in a geographically restricted area(like my home town, just to make sure I hear about it). Thank you very much for this, inasmuch that if I hear from you I know both a) I DO have a soul and b) I will know which God is the right one.

Tempt not the Lord thy God? Sorry, I don't understand that. How can one tempt You, God? Anyways, eagerly waiting to hear from you, Rose

[Radrook]

I think that God has finely tuned his receiver so that certain types of prayers on a certain frequency never get through.

[The GM]

Originally posted by Radrook
I think that God has finely tuned his receiver so that certain types of prayers on a certain frequency never get through.

You have proof that God ignores prayers?

[Navigator]

After all, an immortal soul is a terrible thing to waste...

I would say that being immortal, waste is neither here nor there.

Would I be correct in assertaining tht these prayer requestments are posted in the intent of immature mockery?

What is it about being a 'sceptic' which prompts such outbursts of immaturity?

Is there a 'need' to feel somehow superiour of intellect? No - that can;t be the reason.....perhaps some nasty religious familiar abused the child and ultimately 'god' gets the blame?
A way to get attention...? A Mystery in itself?

While I agree that the xian god concept is somewhat tyranical - actually...more like something which embraces the whole spectrum of human emotion, I personally have had no reason to use this fact as a preventative to Soul exploration, nor a reason for argument in favor of there being no God.

Beliefs aside, what we call ourselves might not signify anything in particular, alongside how we behave as individuals towards each other.

[kittynh]

Honestly I AM a Christian. Not a fundie.

My own belief is that GOD has a great sense of humor, thus the platypus!

One of the religious leaders that I get along pretty well with does have a firm belief in the "power of prayer". He said God answers all prayers, but the answers are always, "Yes, No or not right now". Fundies teach that the answer is never NO and that if your prayer isn't answered YOU are the one at fault.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by The GM

You have proof that God ignores prayers? 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. ~ Matthew 6:5-8 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+6)

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by kittynh
Honestly I AM a Christian. Not a fundie.

My own belief is that GOD has a great sense of humor, thus the platypus!

One of the religious leaders that I get along pretty well with does have a firm belief in the "power of prayer". He said God answers all prayers, but the answers are always, "Yes, No or not right now". Fundies teach that the answer is never NO and that if your prayer isn't answered YOU are the one at fault.

You are way out of line. I am a fundamentalist--and proud of it--and I have never taught or even heard anyone in any church I have ever been a member of teach that "if your prayer isn't answered YOU are the one at fault."

I do acknowledge that that kind of teaching is out there, most notably in certain Charismatic circles--but by no means all of them, either.

In my opinion, the missing link in the question of unanswered prayer is, in most cases, persistence. Take the post from Rose, for example. "If I don't hear from you in a week...." Wow, a whole week. Rose, I've got news for you. There is a certain prayer request I have had on my mind, in various forms, since 1975. And in all that time I have yet to receive an answer which I would consider satisfactory. Does this discourage me? Not in the slightest. I am convinced that what I am asking for is compatible with the nature and character and will and plan of God; therefore, I am determined that I will keep on asking until I receive exactly what I ask for or something which I agree is even better. It may take the entirety of my lifetime. If so, then I will consider my life well spent.

[The GM]

Originally posted by Iacchus


I've seen you quote that before. (I believe it was you at any rate! ;) )
Key point here, though...I didn't ask for scripture, I asked for proof. So since Radrook, the self described Christian, made the statement that God filters out certain prayers, I want proof of that absolutely outrageous claim. Did God zap that message to him in a daily brief? Perhaps God held a teleconference on the subject?
For other Christians in the gallery tonight...Do you think God filters out certain people's prayers? Would God refuse to listen to the desperate plea of an Atheist, for instance? How about thanksgiving offered up by a Shaman? What about the angry accusation from a Wiccan?
I'll be interested in the answers. :)

[evildave]

Well, you see, they have 'god' in their hearts, so whatever their hearts tell them is what god says, and who in the world needs more proof than that?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by The GM

I've seen you quote that before. (I believe it was you at any rate! ;) )Yes, I have posted it before.


Key point here, though...I didn't ask for scripture, I asked for proof. So since Radrook, the self described Christian, made the statement that God filters out certain prayers, I want proof of that absolutely outrageous claim. Did God zap that message to him in a daily brief? Perhaps God held a teleconference on the subject?Except that it is proof that it's understood what you're asking about, even in the Bible.


For other Christians in the gallery tonight...Do you think God filters out certain people's prayers? Would God refuse to listen to the desperate plea of an Atheist, for instance? How about thanksgiving offered up by a Shaman? What about the angry accusation from a Wiccan?
I'll be interested in the answers. :) God is the god of all things, therefore He knoweth what we need before we ask.

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by The GM


For other Christians in the gallery tonight...Do you think God filters out certain people's prayers? Would God refuse to listen to the desperate plea of an Atheist, for instance? How about thanksgiving offered up by a Shaman? What about the angry accusation from a Wiccan?
I'll be interested in the answers. :)

My opinion: No God who is worthy of the title of "God" ever forgets or ignores any prayer, regardless of its source. I am convinced that, in the long run--nota bene, I say the long run--everyone who asks will either receive what they ask for or else will receive something which they themselves will agree is better than what they had asked for. It may take a long time for this to happen. But I am convinced that, eventually, it will indeed happen.

[Radrook]

[i]
Beliefs aside, what we call ourselves might not signify anything in particular, alongside how we behave as individuals towards each other. [/B]


Excellent insight!
Anyone can claim to be anything.

But does the behavior give testimony to it?
I had a self proclaimed born againer watch calmly as his dog tried to tear me limb from limb.

So I have long ago been disabused of the noton that claims of membership in the Christian ranks mean anything at all except a claim.

[Pixel42]

Originally posted by ehbowen
I am convinced that, in the long run--nota bene, I say the long run--everyone who asks will either receive what they ask for or else will receive something which they themselves will agree is better than what they had asked for. It may take a long time for this to happen. But I am convinced that, eventually, it will indeed happen.

When I was 10 I prayed that my father would stop sexually abusing me. I'm now 50, and have still not received anything approaching an answer to this prayer.

I'm currently reading Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel 'The Truth' and just came across this quote:

"Prayer is a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms".

Says it all.

[kittynh]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Radrook
[B]


Excellent insight!
Anyone can claim to be anything.



And oddly enough, no one has yet picked up on the fact that this post has nothing to do with religion. AC said I'm too clever for my own good in a thread. I guess I'm too clever for my own venting jokes too.:(

[The GM]

Originally posted by kittynh

And oddly enough, no one has yet picked up on the fact that this post has nothing to do with religion. AC said I'm too clever for my own good in a thread. I guess I'm too clever for my own venting jokes too.:(

I did. You're fine. Ignore BS posters.

:)

[Rose]

Navigator, to clarify my earlier post. One, it was made with a certain level of sarcasm explicit in it. However, I was attempting to address certain serious matters with serious answers. For instance, the "immortal soul is a terrible thing to waste". If there is such a thing as an immortal soul, I would say allowing that soul to end up in a place like the christian Hell to be a waste. Only by knowing what belief system is "true" can I take action to avoid that waste.

Also, I gave an honest response when I gave an example of what would constitute proof to me. It's a legitimate question from a christian, and deserves an honest response. To demonstrate the existence of a God essentially demands a form of miracle that cannot be (reasonably) attributed to any other cause. Even people being struck by lightning "out of the blue" can be explained by naturalistic causes. 25 terminally ill people at the end stage of their disease process all being cured simultaneously would be much harder to write off as natural. The time limit I set( 1 week) is set for a similiar reason. For such an unlikely event to occur within the stipulated time frame would further increase the probability that the event is in fact the proof I desire. Another reason for a deadline is equally simple. I don't know how long I might live. I could die before the end of the one week window. If I am to be convinced of which, if any, diety is real, I simply do not have the time to waste if I wish to ensure my soul's "salvation."

So, while the tone of my first post might have been sarcastic or mocking, the points I tried to make were not. I'll endeavour to restrain myself in how I express my opinions. I don't want the message to be obscured because someone takes offense at the language used to deliver it.

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Pixel42


When I was 10 I prayed that my father would stop sexually abusing me. I'm now 50, and have still not received anything approaching an answer to this prayer.


I don't have a nice glib pat answer for you. I will say that I believe that eventually--and this may be quite a long time--you will understand all of the reasons why God did not intervene in the way you asked at the time you ask, and I further believe that, once you have all the information, you yourself will agree that God did indeed have good and sufficient reason not to intervene at that particular point in time. And I further believe that you will be offered compensation which you will agree is appropriate and commensurate with what you had to endure.

It is necessary to keep in mind that God's sovereignty in this world is, for the present, disputed. This world, at present, is a combat zone. The Bible speaks of Satan as being "the god of this world," and for the present it appears that he is being given the chance to be exactly that. And the sad consequence of that is situations such as that which you had to endure.

I don't know exactly what it will take to break the status quo. The "Rapture Ready" folk have their own ideas, and I agree that such a scenario is plausible. But I personally have my sights set upon another possibility; I believe that what is needed is an open and public revelation of God to this world in this age. That is what I am praying for. That is what the request I have been praying for since 1975, as I mentioned above, has matured into. And as I said above, I have no intentions of giving up now. If I receive an answer to that request at any point in this lifetime, I will be content--and if I don't, then in the next life I will not be content until I know the reason why.

[Navigator]

Excellent insight!
Anyone can claim to be anything.

But does the behavior give testimony to it?
I had a self proclaimed born againer watch calmly as his dog tried to tear me limb from limb.

So I have long ago been disabused of the noton that claims of membership in the Christian ranks mean anything at all except a claim.

I am not sure that behaviour gives testament to the christian belief systems.
There are many variations for a start.
Also, the god conecept is rather judgmental (even extrememly) which gives the followers the same traits...but then that is how god concepts are created in religious orgs.

The followers gravitate to the concept they most closely identify themselves with....like "If I was God THAT is how I would do it too" kinda thing.

Personally I do not allow the behaviours of differing religious persuasions to limit myself, or put a dark cloud over the notion of GOD outright, but certainly veer from those particular notions...wisely

I Love my own understanding of a personal God..and yes...that does involve 'doing nice and being nice' - but I don;t pray, nor do I worship.

[Navigator]

When I was 10 I prayed that my father would stop sexually abusing me. I'm now 50, and have still not received anything approaching an answer to this prayer.

I'm currently reading Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel 'The Truth' and just came across this quote:

"Prayer is a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms".

Says it all.

Greetings Pixel42

My Ex was seriously sexually abused and also prayed to God for it to stop.
She to did not see any stop in the abuse.

In the end (long story) God got the blame, and I got the repercusions - me and a lot of males, even though I had no thing to do with the abuses, and spent a great deal of effort trying to get her to let it go forgive and move on.
She preferred to hold on to the pain, be the victim and lost a good husband and friend.
She even changed our childrens names back to her maiden name, despite the fact that her own family abused her, her mother knew about the possibility of abuse and allowed the uncles to babysit.
So I learned that abuse wasn;t always as bad as it were made out to be, and that is was sometimes used as a weapon by the victim.
Okay...everyone has a different story, and what I learned from the whole deal is that believing in a superman god saviour is setting one's self up for disappiontment...such a concept is for perpetual victims.

What impresses me are those who have been abused and not only survive, but become so much stronger and dependable and their for others once they have dropped the mantle of 'victim' and assumed the role of victor.

These ones also drop there hatred/detestment for those whom abused them...not through denial, but through something very strong in truth.

They make beautiful companions...my present partner was gang-raped, and the perpetrators got away with it through their 'connections'.
Her choice was to be beautiful and strong regardless, and she is an inspiration to me and an answer to a request to the Universal Entity...and I am also an answer to her own request to the same Universal Entity...
..She also helped (just by being herself) my failing trust in 'Women' as a whole...I am in gratitude.

I myself am also someone who has experienced sexual abuse in my childhood.

I do not hold a grudge against God for allowing the experience to happen.
(What should god do...end the lives of all abusers?)

I think I am a better personality for it all....not that I advocate abuse at all....just that having experienced it in many forms, have not become it, nor allowed it to make me ever the victim.

Sorry if this is a bit strait to the point, and please do not translate this as an attack on you personally nor as something which belittles your own very real experience at the hands of an abuser.

[Navigator]

To demonstrate the existence of a God essentially demands a form of miracle that cannot be (reasonably) attributed to any other cause.

Greetings Rose.

I believe in God.
I do not pray.
I do not worship.
I do not expect miracles, nor associate God as the performer of miraculous, or so-called 'paranormal' activity.
Essential demands are to those particular god concepts which have believers praying for miracles, becuase this somehow provides the evidence they need to believe.
It is enough for me to see Nature ( I like Albert E's comments on Nature) to convince me God Is.
Sure - I have had my 'requests' answered, but most of the time now, I don;t really request...It's more like I get this thought for something I might like, or something someone else might like, and it justs comes about.
Interestingly enough, it NEVER comes about the way I actually might imagine it to come about...and there is always some undercurrent of humor...but serendipity...syncronicity...hey I observe it all working out for me, and I guess I have learned just to see it as it comes rather than imagine how it will come.

So, while the tone of my first post might have been sarcastic or mocking, the points I tried to make were not. I'll endeavour to restrain myself in how I express my opinions. I don't want the message to be obscured because someone takes offense at the language used to deliver it.

Well I suppose that whenever you might have need to ask another for assistance, you would use appropriate language which would assure you the best chance of getting the result you were wanting.

[Oleron]

On the subject of prayer - I had an experience, which I still vividly remember, a very long time ago - when I was at the height of my xian phase.

I was around 16 years old and was a committed xian. I attended what can really only be described as a fundamentalist xian church. I had absolutely no doubt that I was on the right track.

One Sunday night (we had 2 services on a Sunday - what a drag!) a visiting preacher came from England to lead a service. He was 'a big name', very upbeat and charismatic and soon had everyone in the hall in the palm of his hand. Everyone got pretty excited, including me, as he whipped up a holy frenzy in the room.

Just then, at the peak of excitement, he announced that he was going to perform some healings and wanted sick people to step up to the front. A number of people (maybe 15 or so) stepped up to receive their 'healing'. I personally knew most of them.

Then, as a twist, he asked everyone who was 16 or under to come to the front of the hall. I went to the front, along with some of my friends. He said that, as it was god actually doing the healing, he wanted the children to pray for the sick people - he would merely show the children how to pray for the sick.

Me and my friends were hanging on every word by this stage and we felt sure that god would use us to heal people. My friend and I were given a sick person - a lady who claimed she was allergic to wheat products. (I can remember actually thinking 'this isn't much of a challenge!').

The preacher gave us a brief how-to in faith healing and left us to it.

We prayed for the lady and by the end we were certain she was healed. She told us she'd felt a warm glow as we were praying and was sure she was healed. We all left that night with a faith renewed and a spring in our step.

The following week I was at a church barbeque and was helping to serve up the grub when the 'healed' lady walked up to get some food. I proudly handed a hot dog to her, in a nice soft roll. She took the food and bit into it, as if to prove her healing. She then wandered off into the crowd.

I didn't see the lady then for a week or two but when I did I asked her if she was enjoying her new-found wheat freedom. She gave me a funny look but said that, yes, she was having great fun eating cakes etc.
Later that day my mum mentioned the lady to me, saying how pale and wasted she looked and wasn't it a pity about her having been rushed to hospital the previous week! I asked what had happened and my mum confirmed that the allergy had flared up big time and the lady had collapsed.

I was utterly deflated and immediately phoned the lady to find out why she never mentioned this to me - I could have prayed for her again for goodness sake! She sheepishly admitted that her 'healing' wasn't quite the success she had let me believe but that she was sure it was her lack of faith that was the problem. When I offered another prayer session she quickly made excuses - the woman was obviously terrified of having to go through all that suffering again.

This little anecdote was just one of the many incidents in my life that slowly began to re-shape my opinions of the world, leading eventually to my current opinion that there is no god and praying is just as Pixel42 (quoting Pratchett) says - pleading with thunderstorms.

I always made excuses for god when I was a xian. If prayer didn't work, well I suppose that's just me not understanding the 'big picture'. Mysterious ways and all that.

I eventually got sick of making excuses. Or as Henry Rollins once said, "You can put make-up on a pig, but it's still a pig." (or something like that)
I got off my knees and started to take responsiblity for my own life, instead of waiting for someone to lead it for me.

Seems to be working, so far.;)

[Gulliamo]

Originally posted by The GM
For other Christians in the gallery tonight...Do you think God filters out certain people's prayers? Would God refuse to listen to the desperate plea of an Atheist, for instance? How about thanksgiving offered up by a Shaman? What about the angry accusation from a Wiccan?
I'll be interested in the answers. :) What about two Christians praying for the same thing? If a devot husband is praying for a Corvette and his wife is in the church pew next to him praying for a mini-van? [not what I originally typed...]

[Virgil]

dear god,


thank you for sending me my little virgil. next time please sent money to cover the vet bills too.


virgil's daddy

[The GM]

Originally posted by Gulliamo
What about two Christians praying for the same thing? If a devot husband is praying for a Corvette and his wife is in the church pew next to him praying for a mini-van? [not what I originally typed...]

*laughs*
Well, I guess if they've been good, each gets what they want.
You fill in the 'wants' blanks with your own plausible solution scenario. :p