JREF challenge worth taking?

[flyboy217]

I imagine this has been brought up before in the history of the forum, but I think it's interesting.

Suppose you had some incredible paranormal ability. Would you take the JREF challenge, or would you harbor the ability so that you could figure out a way to capitalize on it before people caught wind of it?

There seem to be many claims from the parapsychological community that everyone would have such abilities, more or less. So perhaps making them public would only serve to undermine your own (by making others aware of their own, perhaps), making them less profitable. Surely such an ability could earn one much more than a measly $1 million?

I don't know. Thoughts?

[CFLarsen]

There are many excuses for not taking the challenge, and none are valid.

Psychics, dowsers, healers, parapsychologists, they all clamor for attention, money and fame. So this million dollars that sits and waits to be picked up by anyone who can do what they claim to do should be a major attraction. Not just the money, but also the joy of seeing the world's most known skeptic beaten.

It's all about getting the word out. What better way than this?

We don't hear the opposite: "Let's keep this secret, let's not sell books, let's not give readings for a price, let's not get people to pay for seminars, let's not do anything that will spread this knowledge".

We similarly don't hear: "Let's keep these experiments secret, we don't need more funding, there are no fantastic results".

But when real evidence has to be shown, they slink away. Make excuses. Even attack.

The field of paranormal phenomena is littered with deceit and delusion. Perhaps that's all it is?

[Doctor X]

If it was something everyone could do, it would not be "paranormal" methinks.

Though go to your John "I'm getting a 'P,' no an 'A' . . . did anyone here have a relative that passed over?" Edward types. They have a veritable franchise. The imprimateur of a Randi prize would only add to the prestige and $$$.

Of course, they are not in it for the money. . . .

--J.D.

[An Infinite Ocean]

If I were psychic, I wouldn't take the Randi challenge. I would just predict the lottery numbers and get on the stock market to make my fortune. Of course, I'd feel obliged to use my powers for good as much as possible, but I'd try to keep the powers themselves well and truly under my hat.

As such, I wouldn't write books or star in TV shows either.

[Ceinwyn]

If I thought I had a paranormal power and could prove it, I damn straight would call up Randi and have it tested.

It would be great to give back to science all that it has given to me.

[steenkh]

I also think that it would be easier to convince scientists to research a paranormal claim if that claim had just won Randi's prize.

[flyboy217]

There are many excuses for not taking the challenge, and none are valid.

Let's wait and see if we can't hear any.

If it was something everyone could do, it would not be "paranormal" methinks.

True. That's why many parapsychologists argue that the term "paranormal" is misleading. Many people feel that some of the stuff we label "paranormal" is in fact able to be done by everyone, more or less, if they figured out how (which purportedly takes practice).

This could easily turn into any number of side debates (Then why haven't people discovered it already? etc...) I'd rather not get into that debate in this particular thread, but suppose this were true. What then?

Of course, I'd feel obliged to use my powers for good as much as possible, but I'd try to keep the powers themselves well and truly under my hat.

Noble. I don't think I could do that.

It would be great to give back to science all that it has given to me.

I agree. But we're all greedy underneath, right?

I also think that it would be easier to convince scientists to research a paranormal claim if that claim had just won Randi's prize.

No doubt... FAR easier.


But hypothetically... if I found out that I had such powers, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't take the challenge for at least quite some time.

State Lotteries might shut down... and they pay out FAR more than a measly $1 million. Same with casinos. ("But Flyboy, why aren't those psychics doing that right now?" I don't claim there are any psychics. Remember, this is hypothetical.) Especially if it were true that everyone could learn them, I'd try to find a way to capitalize on them before letting the cat out of the bag.

I think I would eventually take the Randi challenge, for the aforementioned reasons... but it certainly wouldn't be the first thing I would do. And after having become immensely rich already, surely not for the money.

[steenkh]

Flyboy,

You could also have a claim that would NOT make you rich. The ability to see through a blindfold could perhaps net you some money, but probably not a million dollars in a short period of time. Or the ability to hover 10 cm. above ground for 30 seconds - a sure loser, moneywise. I think that there might be more money in dowsing, especially those that can dowse for gold.

[flyboy217]

Originally posted by steenkh
Flyboy,

You could also have a claim that would NOT make you rich. The ability to see through a blindfold could perhaps net you some money, but probably not a million dollars in a short period of time. Or the ability to hover 10 cm. above ground for 30 seconds - a sure loser, moneywise. I think that there might be more money in dowsing, especially those that can dowse for gold.

This is true. What an odd talent it would be indeed to be able to see through only a blindfold (and nothing else, that is)... and moreover, to be the only one who could do it. Similarly for being able to hover 10 cm. for 30 sec.

In such cases, I would probably try to do independent research to figure out what was going on... surely there should be other manifestations of this apparent breach of known physics. I think I'd want to discover as much as I could about it before taking it to Randi (or anyone) and effectively giving the ball over to him and the public at large.

[apoger]

I imagine this has been brought up before in the history of the forum, but I think it's interesting.

This has been asked many times, and as such I offer you my standard response:

"The discovery of a previously paranormal ability would shake the foundations of science. It would create a new renaissance of discovery that would lead to a better understanding of our universe and most likely produce practical applications that would improve the lot of humankind. I know I would not be able to sleep at night if I was personally responsible for concealing evidence of such a major discovery."

How's THAT for motivation, besides a million bucks and fame?

[The idea]

Originally posted by apoger
"The discovery of a previously paranormal ability would [...] most likely produce practical applications that would improve the lot of humankind. I know I would not be able to sleep at night if I was personally responsible for concealing evidence of such a major discovery."

What if you had reason to suspect that the paranormal ability would lead to military technologies that would cause havoc?

[Loon]

Originally posted by apoger


This has been asked many times, and as such I offer you my standard response:

"The discovery of a previously paranormal ability would shake the foundations of science. It would create a new renaissance of discovery that would lead to a better understanding of our universe and most likely produce practical applications that would improve the lot of humankind. I know I would not be able to sleep at night if I was personally responsible for concealing evidence of such a major discovery."

How's THAT for motivation, besides a million bucks and fame?

It's a great motivation for someone who wants to shake up science. For someone who wants to be anonymous and powerful, it's a bad thing.

There are plenty of good reasons to go for the prize if you have the ability to get it. These may not motivate everyone, and they may not outweigh negatives. Not everyone will want to do the same good (or evil) that you might with your skills.

[steenkh]

Originally posted by The idea
What if you had reason to suspect that the paranormal ability would lead to military technologies that would cause havoc?
Then it would be even more important to ensure that it is widely understood. I would always assume that if I can do something, somebody else can probably also do it. And I would try to ensure that nobody could sit on the information and gain an unfair advance.

[Doctor X]

Or the ability to hover 10 cm. above ground for 30 seconds - a sure loser, moneywise.

But a sure winner with Nicole Kidman!

BWA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!

Storms off decrying the sudden deterioration in humor on this forum. . . .

--J.D.

[7th sextile]

I sat next to my psychic at dice
When she lost forty grand in a trice,
But each time she blew it,
She'd mutter "I knew it!"
So I guess I'll still take her advice.

It's an interesting point,flyboy-sure there could be a
psychokinetic talent flying under the statistical radar,
making a few grand from each casino,working say,
a hundred days a year to make half a million; or a
precog who's won a nice grubstake in the lottery
and is now getting megarich in equities.The measly
million wouldn't tempt such as these,winning it might
even be counterproductive.
Historically though,the challenge has dealt with
folks who publicly claimed an ability-some folks
tried for it when it was an even measlier ten grand.
The stories of many of these attempts are detailed
in Flim-Flam! Available at the JREF store and in many
libraries.

We attempted to prove Barnum's dictum
By meticulous count of each victim;
But by said statistic
It proved pessimistic
As it really did underpredict 'em.

[Doctor X]

Sláinte?

--J.D.

[7th sextile]

DocX:Yes! (well-Ive only had it there for 3 years...)

[Doctor X]

You realize the way it is spelled it means, "small squid that dances in yogurt?"

---J.D.

[rebecca]

The only reason I would not go to JREF for the million if I had a weird paranormal talent is the fear that I would spend the rest of my life in a cage somewhere in the Pentagon, getting poked and prodded by scientists and military personnel.

This, however, is no excuse for people who are out there publicly demonstrating their "abilities."

[MRC_Hans]

Rebecca: Spot on! I think that is the way the question should be phrased: "Is there any reason those people who publicly claim to have paranormal powers would not take the JREF challenge?"

You could always argue that some wizard somewhere had some private evil, idealistic, or other, reason to avoid publicity, but it is VERY difficult to explain why an Uri Geller should not make a beeline for Ft. Lauderdale. ..... Except if he knows he cannot deliver.

Hans

[Telepathic Ads]

if i had paranormal powers, i would take the challenge, and after i get the money and "fame", i would try to auction myself off to the highest bidder to study myself and my powers, and try to see what other paranormal abilities im capable of doing, and whatever information and good comes out of it, share it with the rest of the world, so that way i'll get my riches and be doing good at teh same time...:D



PS: for you guys who forgot, theres more than 1 million dollars in reward if you win Randi's challenge. i believe with all teh reawrds given through out the world connected to Randis challenge, theirs a total of a little over 2.2 million dollars

[roger]

I can think of few reasons not to take the challenge. In most cases, even if my earnings potentional exceeds $1 million, winning the challenge means enormous amounts of free publicity. You could write your own ticket after that.

On the other hand, if the ability includes predicting lottery numbers, I have to admit that despite the unethical aspect to it (taking advantage of information others don't have), it'd be hard not to just go and win a $100+ million jackpot and call it a day. But balance that with the enormous amounts of good you could do for the world were your talent known, and it becomes easier to leave the (lottery) money on the table. It'd be more laborous to make $100m that way, but still eminately doable.

[Beleth]

Before I took the JREF Challenge - indeed, before I took any challenge - I'd do a lot of research into the challenge.

I'd read the entire randi.org Web page.
I'd read every single online weekly newsletter.
I'd read the JREF Forum, especially the Million Dollar Challenge and the Paranormal boards.
I'd do a lot of Googling and see what other people have said about the JREF Challenge.

In all that research, I'd pay particular attention to the cases with the most documentation. The conclusion I'd reach is that the JREF handles challenging, well-documented cases in a very unprofessional manner. The scope of the Challenge is changed for particular applicants; evidence provided is ignored in favor of similar, easier-to-view evidence; conditions under which evidence is obtained is left unprofessionally vague; etc. And all of this is done under conditions of the utmost contempt for the applicant.

No, if I truly had an incredible paranormal ability, I would forego the headache of the JREF Challenge and stick to making $5000 a day playing craps.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Beleth
The scope of the Challenge is changed for particular applicants;

What do you mean by this? Is it a problem that the Challenge is suited to fit the actual claim of the applicant?

Originally posted by Beleth
evidence provided is ignored in favor of similar, easier-to-view evidence;

What evidence are you talking about, in both cases?

Originally posted by Beleth
conditions under which evidence is obtained is left unprofessionally vague; etc.

Can you give examples?

Originally posted by Beleth
And all of this is done under conditions of the utmost contempt for the applicant.

Please provide examples of this being a hindrance to the applicant's chances of succeeding.

[walthrup48]

Yes, I'd like to know too. Please clarify, Beleth.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by JimTheBrit
Yes, I'd like to know too. Please clarify, Beleth.

Is this a flogging of that dead horse called "In CONCLUSION..." by Beleth or does s/he have something?

[walthrup48]

Oh, of course. <slaps forehead>

[LettristLoon]

Yo.

Man, if I could, I would walk directly into the JREF. There's a little hallway leading to Randi's office, containing two desks. On the right hand side of the hallway, there's a bunch of spoons. I wouldn't touch none of them--I would have Randi pick up one at random, or any other similarly small, weak, and pliable object in his office. I'd bend it, and say, "Do we need a video camera before I do this again?"

James, if he himself were conducting a one-on-one test (which is a rarity, for The Challange), probably wouldn't mind doing it informally. I tend to believe he's not especially prejudiced against claimants. If he can do what they say, he would really, very much, like to see it. He's not too worry about being fooled--it's easy to keep someone from cheating, and if you know what to look for, it's much TOO easy. So easy that an informed skeptic never gets bowled over by any claim, ever, it's so easily refutable. Don't let the telekinetic touch the spoon, don't let the astrologer meet the people she's doing natal charts for, etc, etc, and if abilities persist, great.

But James couldn't BS the challenge. If a genuine claimant came forward and James fudged the results, he or she could just sue the JREF for the prize money. Get the claimant on the witness stand to demonstrate those abilities, with James running tight controls to demonstrate the claimant's impotence, and see what happens.

If I had paranormal abilities and James refused to give up the goods, he'd be in dizeep legal shiznit. Oddly, no one's thus far sued the Foundation. What gives?

- B

[An Infinite Ocean]

Originally posted by Beleth
And all of this is done under conditions of the utmost contempt for the applicant.
This is true. While I am convinced of Randi's honesty, I'm not sure I'd feel the same way if I was on the other side of the fence. Professionalism is an issue.

I'd imagine that if you apply for the challenge, you must expect to be treated like a piece of crap (even though Kramer might call you 'Mr. Piece of Crap, Sir'). Making an application to the JREF is not for the faint of heart.

If you're lucky, your application will be put in a drawer for three years until an intern digs it out to doodle on, and if you're unlucky you get an email from Randi, telling you what he thinks of you and your claim in no uncertain terms. If you're especially lucky you might get tested - but is it a preliminary test, or a pre-preliminary demonstration? You won't find out until it's over!

And what it all boils down to is this - why would you trust someone that would treat you something they scraped off their shoe? I wouldn't. We all know that most applicants are deluded, but I think that even the deluded deserve some respect. They shouldn't be abused just because they are peculiar. It makes the JREF look aggressive and rude.

The JREF really needs to learn some proper business skills (even though it's not a business per-se). If proper documentation is made (and it is abundantly clear that little/no/improper documentation has been made in the past), and people are treated with respect - whatever their level of loopiness - then the JREF would surely get more applicants and enjoy a better reputation. As it stands, they seem to enjoy handing ammo to their detractors.

I hate to bash the JREF, but come on - let's see some proper organisation. Maybe Kramer will sort it out, but I'm not holding my breath just yet.

[Beleth]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Originally posted by Beleth
The scope of the Challenge is changed for particular applicants;
What do you mean by this? Is it a problem that the Challenge is suited to fit the actual claim of the applicant?I'm not talking about the test, I'm talking about the scope. Clearly Carlos's claim was never within the scope of the Challenge, but the JREF decided to go ahead and process it as if it were in the scope anyway.

evidence provided is ignored in favor of similar, easier-to-view evidence;What evidence are you talking about, in both cases?Carlos again. He submitted a tape as evidence, which IIRC was never watched. Instead, the person processing the claim watched a lower-res version of it which he found on the Web.

conditions under which evidence is obtained is left unprofessionally vague;Can you give examples?Yellow Bamboo's video. While it was hardly a perfect match to what the JREF asked for, it was more of a match to the vague parameters they were given than the JREF wants to admit to. They did the best they could with the equipment and the timeframe they had.

And all of this is done under conditions of the utmost contempt for the applicant.Please provide examples of this being a hindrance to the applicant's chances of succeeding. I never said it would be. That's not what we're discussing. I mention it because it would be a deciding factor for me as to whether I would apply or not.

[LettristLoon]

The preliminary test/exam is pretty obviously a test. If you can perform, you get to go farther. No one's ever done this, however, so it's impossible to know how professional the JREF might be in handling a claimant that gets to such a point.

Randi, et al, should treat all prospective claimants with respect, it's true. But since the preliminary tests are usually carried out by various peoples associated with the JREF, the world over, it must be pretty tough to regulate them.

Beleth: Where can I find more on Carlos, and on Yellow Bamboo? (and is that a name, or what?)


- B

[Beleth]

Originally posted by LettristLoon
Beleth: Where can I find more on Carlos, and on Yellow Bamboo? (and is that a name, or what?)A search on either of those terms in this forum will provide you with more reading material than you will want to read in one sitting.

Very brief summaries:
Carlos Salas Swett is a South American who submitted a videotape which he claims shows something paranormal passing through the hole the first airplane made in the World Trade Center attack.

Yellow Bamboo is a martial arts group in Southeast Asia who claim to be able to knock a person down from several feet away without physically touching them.

[flyboy217]

Originally posted by apoger


This has been asked many times, and as such I offer you my standard response:

"The discovery of a previously paranormal ability would shake the foundations of science. It would create a new renaissance of discovery that would lead to a better understanding of our universe and most likely produce practical applications that would improve the lot of humankind. I know I would not be able to sleep at night if I was personally responsible for concealing evidence of such a major discovery."

How's THAT for motivation, besides a million bucks and fame?

I'll just suppose you didn't read the rest of the thread first.

I'd shake the foundations of science (and make lots of money) by publishing my OWN papers, not by lettingi Randi get wind of it before I could capitalize.

[flyboy217]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Rebecca: Spot on! I think that is the way the question should be phrased: "Is there any reason those people who publicly claim to have paranormal powers would not take the JREF challenge?"


But what if that's not my question at all, and instead something that everyone here wants to read?


You could always argue that some wizard somewhere had some private evil, idealistic, or other, reason to avoid publicity, but it is VERY difficult to explain why an Uri Geller should not make a beeline for Ft. Lauderdale. ..... Except if he knows he cannot deliver.

Hans

I'm not arguing anything, or trying to explain Uri Geller. It's very simple: I can think of smarter ways of going about it than contacting Randi first.

Put it this way. If I had said magical powers, one thing can be said for certain: There is something going on in the universe observably different from what scientists know today. If I won the Randi challenge, you can damn well believe there'd be a huge effort by scientists to figure out what's going on. I'd lose my edge in being the one to make the discovery.

Similarly, you can be sure billions of people around the world would suddenly try to duplicate my powers themselves. And if I've really discovered some fundamental piece of reality that others have just been ignoring, it's very likely that someone else out there can do it, too. I've just lost another huge edge.

Essentially, "my" power would be figured out and exploited as soon as it became public. It would be stolen from right under my nose. I'd be pretty silly to go to Randi and letting others steal my thunder before exploiting it scientifically, fincancially, etc. myself.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Beleth
I'm not talking about the test, I'm talking about the scope. Clearly Carlos's claim was never within the scope of the Challenge, but the JREF decided to go ahead and process it as if it were in the scope anyway.

Really? Andrew Harter made it clear from the start that Carlos did not have a claim. What do you mean "go ahead and process it"?

Originally posted by Beleth
Carlos again. He submitted a tape as evidence, which IIRC was never watched. Instead, the person processing the claim watched a lower-res version of it which he found on the Web.

No, Andrew Harter looked at the tape, and gave an explanation.

Originally posted by Beleth
Yellow Bamboo's video. While it was hardly a perfect match to what the JREF asked for, it was more of a match to the vague parameters they were given than the JREF wants to admit to. They did the best they could with the equipment and the timeframe they had.

I found the delays highly suspicious: Filming at night is not a good idea, and the subsequent analysis of the individual frames showed very...shall we say "peculiar" things.

The parameters given by JREF were quite sufficient, but - as you say - were simply not met by YB. The behavior afterwards by YB does not speak well of their honesty: They tried to claim to have won the million.

Originally posted by Beleth
I never said it would be. That's not what we're discussing. I mention it because it would be a deciding factor for me as to whether I would apply or not.

So, it's your opinion that the there is utmost contempt for the applicant? May I suggest you read some of the Commentaries where people have been tested? Take the example of the woman who came to be tested for healing: I see no contempt there.

[steenkh]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

The parameters given by JREF were quite sufficient, but - as you say - were simply not met by YB. The behavior afterwards by YB does not speak well of their honesty: They tried to claim to have won the million.


I do not think that YB is the subject here. They are of course scammers, and just tried to grab the million. The probem with the YB case was that Randi had made very informal arrangements with an Indonesian guy that Randi had never met before, to the effect that this guy could act as Randi's intermediary. Maybe Randi never intended to give the guy the JREF authority to conduct a preliminary test, but it certainly was not clear at the time. Now, the guy was fooled by YB, and suddenly it became very important that this had not been a preliminary test. If Randi had been more careful in his wording, this dilemma would not have been created. At the time Randi was convinced that YB could not knock out a real skeptic, but he had not thought about warning the inexperienced young man against tasers ... (BTW, the suspicious delays were, AFAWK, caused by the tester, not by YB)

I also feel that JREF treats applicants with contempt. Randi is not shy of publishing his sometimes brusque letters to the applicants. But of course, we often see that the applicants write aggressive letters to JREF, and then they get back of the same coin. Sometimes Randi sends nice letters, too, so the picture is not uniform.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by flyboy217

But what if that's not my question at all, and instead something that everyone here wants to read?

Well, that's the risk in an open debate. But I accept your attempt to get back on track, below.

I'm not arguing anything, or trying to explain Uri Geller. It's very simple: I can think of smarter ways of going about it than contacting Randi first.

Put it this way. If I had said magical powers, one thing can be said for certain: There is something going on in the universe observably different from what scientists know today. If I won the Randi challenge, you can damn well believe there'd be a huge effort by scientists to figure out what's going on. I'd lose my edge in being the one to make the discovery.

Oh, for sure. That is a point. Mmm, exactly the point I made in my response to Rebekka: The individual, hitherto unknown wizard might very well have a reason not to apply for the prize. For instance to capitalize on his discovery. So the prize is evidently mostly aimed at those who have already, in public, calimed to have a paranormal ability.

Similarly, you can be sure billions of people around the world would suddenly try to duplicate my powers themselves. And if I've really discovered some fundamental piece of reality that others have just been ignoring, it's very likely that someone else out there can do it, too. I've just lost another huge edge.

Essentially, "my" power would be figured out and exploited as soon as it became public. It would be stolen from right under my nose. I'd be pretty silly to go to Randi and letting others steal my thunder before exploiting it scientifically, fincancially, etc. myself.

Certainly.But all this just means that IF paranormal abilities existed we would expect one of two scenarios:

1) Somebody steps forward, claims and wins the Randi prize (and whatever other connected prizes).

2) Suddenly somebody gets very rich and powerful, in mysterious ways.

We all know that #1 has not happened, so far.

#2 May have hapened, or be in the process of happening, but I'm pretty sure it couldn't stay secret for long.

Hans

[Jyera]

Hi All,

I have started a new thread.
"How about an X-Men School?"

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42890

I invite all to join in discussion on the viability for JREF to start an X-Men school.

With an X-men school, "mutants" need not be afraid of being kidnaped by scientists who poke needle all around you.

- Jyera

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by steenkh
Maybe Randi never intended to give the guy the JREF authority to conduct a preliminary test, but it certainly was not clear at the time.

It was very clear. It was not a preliminary test. In the letter that YB showed as evidence, it is referred to as "Yellow Bamboo demonstration".
Source (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28275&highlight=bamboo)

It is often the case that Randi asks for a demonstration, before a prelim is done. E.g. Natalie Lulova was observed by Andrew Harter before she was tested.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by steenkh


I do not think that YB is the subject here. They are of course scammers, and just tried to grab the million. The probem with the YB case was that Randi had made very informal arrangements with an Indonesian guy that Randi had never met before, to the effect that this guy could act as Randi's intermediary. Maybe Randi never intended to give the guy the JREF authority to conduct a preliminary test, but it certainly was not clear at the time. Now, the guy was fooled by YB, and suddenly it became very important that this had not been a preliminary test. If Randi had been more careful in his wording, this dilemma would not have been created. At the time Randi was convinced that YB could not knock out a real skeptic, but he had not thought about warning the inexperienced young man against tasers ... (BTW, the suspicious delays were, AFAWK, caused by the tester, not by YB)

I also feel that JREF treats applicants with contempt. Randi is not shy of publishing his sometimes brusque letters to the applicants. But of course, we often see that the applicants write aggressive letters to JREF, and then they get back of the same coin. Sometimes Randi sends nice letters, too, so the picture is not uniform. I agree. I can easily understand why Randi must be sorely fed up with all the cranks he has to handle, but he has put himself in that situation, and there is no logical reason to be angry about the "business" being full of cranks and frauds. After all, that was exactly what he set out to prove.

That does not mean that I think the Carlosses and YBs have any case at all, only that a number of inconviniences could be avoided by a more professional approach. However, we must remember that the JREF is a private organisation, run for private money. It is run exactly the way the people running it chose, and it has no obligation to do otherwise.

Hans

[steenkh]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
It was very clear. It was not a preliminary test. In the letter that YB showed as evidence, it is referred to as "Yellow Bamboo demonstration".
Source (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28275&highlight=bamboo)


It was not clear to Joko Tri who talks about the Randi Challenge, and although Randi uses the word demonstration in the notarised letter, he also uses the word test. And why all the trouble of notarising, if it is only a demonstration with no financial consequences? I also do not think Yellow Bamboo would do all this if they could not net the money by doing it.

In the email correspondence, Randi tells Joko Tri: "Yes, I would accept you as a volunteer on behalf of the JREF". Now, maybe Randi did not think this was meant to be a test, but the uncertainty is there. Randi is very careful with his choice of words in the notarised letter, but the emails to Joko Tri are more careless, especially his omission of making it clear to Joko Tri that this was not the real test.

Never mind, the point is made, and I support Randi's stand, especially because the conditions for the test were not adhered to. There is no way YB could have got away with this, but it would be much better if a proper test had been done, where JREF had a team of more than one person present, and not just an inexperienced one.

Edited to say: I agree with Hans that JREF is a privately owned organisation, and we cannot demand any changes or standards of it. Besides, the JREF has performed well for a long time, even if we can find a few things to put our finger on. When I wish for a more professional handling, it is just worries.

[Beleth]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
However, we must remember that the JREF is a private organisation, run for private money. It is run exactly the way the people running it chose, and it has no obligation to do otherwise.Yes of course. But they do have a mission, and they reap what they sow. Treating differently-opinioned people with contempt convinces no one of the truth of your views. It polarizes your audience into people that agreed with you anyway, and people that think you're both wrong and rude.

No one gets converted by rudeness.

[Anders W. Bonde]

Not that I support rudeness, but my impression is that those Randi respond to in a harsh manner always give the impression that they have 1) not taken the trouble to read the rules prior to submitting a claim and/or applying for the Challenge 2) not made the slightest effort to ensure they had also understood the rules 3) had often requested, nay required, special consideration (for instance our countryman, Eskild the hapless astrologer), thereby disqualifying themselves.

While real scams like Sylvia Browne and true arrogant loons like Zammit and Benveniste actually do deserve contempt, their antics will, to the critical thinker, provide adequate scorn on them.

But using a more courteous tone, even though a lot of the applicants more or less beg for verbal abuse, would, IMHO, at least deprive the applicants of one more excuse: In the Land of New Age and such like, people tend to focus much more on form and the presenter, rather than the content of a statement - methinks because these people run out of arguments even before they announce their fantastic notions, yet somewhere deep inside themselves they know their claims will not survive unscathed even the slightest scrutiny.

Like Dann Simonsen pointed out so eloquently on another thread, the need for the believers to have their illusions burst in a painless manner is simply a utopian impossibility; regardless of how gently it's put to them, they'll always feel hurt, offended.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by steenkh
It was not clear to Joko Tri who talks about the Randi Challenge, and although Randi uses the word demonstration in the notarised letter, he also uses the word test. And why all the trouble of notarising, if it is only a demonstration with no financial consequences? I also do not think Yellow Bamboo would do all this if they could not net the money by doing it.

The trouble of notarizing is simply to have things formalized. If "someone from JREF" saw someone falling down, and could not give an explanation, YB could easily claim that it was a real test.

......OK, they do it anyway, but with the notarization, they don't have a case at all. :)

Originally posted by steenkh
In the email correspondence, Randi tells Joko Tri: "Yes, I would accept you as a volunteer on behalf of the JREF". Now, maybe Randi did not think this was meant to be a test, but the uncertainty is there. Randi is very careful with his choice of words in the notarised letter, but the emails to Joko Tri are more careless, especially his omission of making it clear to Joko Tri that this was not the real test.

If it says "test", then it's a test. If it says "preliminary test", then that's what it is.

Originally posted by steenkh
Never mind, the point is made, and I support Randi's stand, especially because the conditions for the test were not adhered to. There is no way YB could have got away with this, but it would be much better if a proper test had been done, where JREF had a team of more than one person present, and not just an inexperienced one.

Unfortunately, it was around the globe, in the middle of nowhere. It is impossible for Randi to schedule personal appearances every time such a claim comes up. He would be as busy as Santa on Xmas day! :)

Originally posted by steenkh
Edited to say: I agree with Hans that JREF is a privately owned organisation, and we cannot demand any changes or standards of it. Besides, the JREF has performed well for a long time, even if we can find a few things to put our finger on. When I wish for a more professional handling, it is just worries.

Everything can always improve, but it also comes with a prize. Time, money, people.

[homer]

If I could bend a fork just by thinking about it , then the only way I could make money out of this would be to go on chat shows and demonstrate this talent . Of course I should have to take the test otherwise folks would suspect foul play and refuse to allow me on their programs as we all notice happens in the real world .
When you think of it what a useless talent this is . I can bend keys , forks etc with a pair of pliers . So who needs it when traditional methods work so well ?

[epepke]

Originally posted by flyboy217
I imagine this has been brought up before in the history of the forum, but I think it's interesting.

Suppose you had some incredible paranormal ability. Would you take the JREF challenge, or would you harbor the ability so that you could figure out a way to capitalize on it before people caught wind of it?

I personally would take the challenge in a nanosecond. If the challenge did not exist, I would probably hire Randi to examine my abilitiy, because the surer I was that it was genuine, the more I would want it to be examined as critically as possible. The existence of the challenge would just save me money.