Religion According To The Rev. Z

[Z]

This is an utterly meaningless post meant in part to help me clarify my stance. I often find there are those who have trouble dealing with a Skeptic/Priest/New-Age Guru. This may help them understand me better... though it may just point out that I Am A Crackpot, I don't know.

Anyway...

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In the Beginning, There was Deity. Deity was All That Was, and contained All That Might Be.

What happened Before, we cannot know. But Deity created The Universe. Deity gathered All The Mass That Is, packed it full of All The Energy That Is, and wrapped the mess up with All The Dimensions That Are and All The Laws That Will Be... then turned it loose.

So off it goes, forming a Universe in accordance with natural laws but without any purpose or design. Deity did it 'just because' or for some reason we can't fathom.

Anyway, Deity, from time to time, reaches in to 'tweak' it - adjusting probabilities and causing some unlikely things to happen - but never without sticking to the 'Original Rules'.

And, so, the Universe formed, and Deity saw that It Was Neat.

So Deity played a bit, and Lo! On one speck, probability took a wayward turn, and Life Formed. Deity was interested - here was something new! So Deity tweaked - just a bit, mind! Mustn't violate The Rules! - and Life survived. But Life got boring really quick... so Deity tweaked again - just a bit, mind! - and Life changed.

And so, through the Ages of Earth, Life continued to evolve, each step starting with a tweak - just a bit, mind! - and ending when this new Life dominated the World.

And as Life got more complex, Deity became more fascinated, and so Life continued to attract Deity's attention.

Finally, there appeared a new kind of Life - one capable of Thinking in ways that were NOT instinct, nor primal in form! Here was Life capable of considering its own existence, and its own mortality; Life capable of philosophy and theory; Life desiring not to life in accord with nature, but in SPITE of it.

And Deity was enthralled.

But here, for the first time, was a Life capable of guessing that Deity was there... So, for a long time, Deity did nothing but watch. Then, in the slightest ways, Deity made small appearances. Fascinating, but often dangerous to those Deity appeared to.

Eventually, Deity realized, that this Life was fragile of mind and spirit; Deity must appear to each as best suits them. And so, the Mythologies of our past were born.

In time, those Mythologies outgrew Deity's appearance, and wars were fought, and atrocities committed. Try as Deity might, no appearance Deity might make seemed to stop the problem, but made it worse, and worse, and worse.

So Deity set forth to inhabit mortal bodies, and teach lessons of peace and virtue - but even these lessons were perverted, and soiled, and twisted to evil purpose. So Deity gave up, for a time, and watched.

And Man developed into Modern Man, and developed Science. And Deity became enthralled once more.

And Man developed the Pagan Thinking, and began to set aside archaic notions of Deity, and began to choose a more sensible approach to Deity. And Deity was free to appear once more, though never as before. Now Deity appears - just a bit, mind! - to those who will See Deity, and Deity tweaks a bit - just a bit, mind! - but for the most part, Deity is done with the whole appearances thing.

So what does Deity care for Humans? As a whole, we fascinate Deity - and disgust Deity. For we create and destroy, we make life and take life. We are one with nature and one against it.

What does Deity care for you? Who can say? Devote your life to positive things - creation, beauty, life, love, peace - and Deity may take a personal hand. But always know that Deity will interact just a bit - and never against the Laws, mind! - and mostly know that Deity acts most often through your own mind. Your dreams - your flashes of insight - your imagination. These are the realms in which Deity reaches out to you. This is not to say your ideas aren't your own, but if you pray, don't expect burning bushes and heavenly voices, but look for your own insights to illuminate you.

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If anyone wants to read this, great... if not, I apologize for wasted space.

If anyone wants to comment, or ask questions, it would greatly help me in formulating my personal views. I know the standard Correllian Nativist Tradition theology, and teach and preach Wicca in the most generic forms possible - based on this philosophy of course - but those who lock themselves into one Theology are ultimately doomed.

Thanks for your time and patience.

[Z]

Since, in general, religion has rules to guide behavior:

1. Unless defending yourself, your family, your friends, or the 'Greater Good' (which only your judgement can determine for you), do no harm to yourself or to others, and allow no harm to come to yourself or others.

2. If you must cause harm, cause as little harm as necessary, and if you can, return that which you take. If you need wood to build a home, plant trees enough to replace the wood. If you must eat a chicken, ensure that two chickens are able to breed in peace. All if possible. If not, encourage those who can give back for you.

3. Trust that Karma exists, that every good you do adds to the good of the world, and in some form will return to you; trust that every evil you do adds to the evil in the world, and in some form will return to you.

4. Believe that the soul is immortal, but live as if each day is your last. Trust that you are 'going on' when it's over, but live your life so that you'll have no regrets when you're gone.

5. Be skeptical, but believe what you will until it's proven wrong. Always be ready to release old ideas and embrace new ideas.

6. Live life to be happy; seek pleasure; enjoy what you have, and work hard to get what you want. Remember - you can't take it with you, and there just might not be anything when it's done - so enjoy it while you can.

Again, if anyone wants to comment or add to this, or analyze and skepticize it, please do so. Thanks.

[SkepticPete]

Hi,

where is the evidence for the "tweaking" you constantly mention?

And when you say that "deity" always tweaks within the "rules" what does that mean? The laws of physics?

Isn't "adjusting probabilities" breaking the rules?

Thanks

"How many thousands of years must pass without a single shred of evidence that god exists, before it becomes a non question? All anyone would have to do to convert every person on earth to believing in god would be to put forth one single piece of proof. Not hearsay, not anecdotal, not unexplained, not conjecture, not belief, not popular vote, but one solid hard fact. So far nothing. In my opinion that should close the books and we should get on with something else.

There is no god, there never was, there never will be. End of discussion."

[Z]

Hmmm.. Interesting.

Have you ever read Douglas Adams? The 'Hitchhiker Trilogy'?

There's a starship drive (the Infinite Improbability drive) that goes into a lengthy explanation of 'tweaking probability' so that you hit the chance of being everywhere at once - or at least, of spontaneously going somewhere else instantly.

I think this is what I mean by 'tweaking' - just twisting those unseen and unobservable numbers just enough so that a 1 in one trillion chance event actually occurs. Sort of like weighting those invisible dice just enough.

Evidence? Conjecture, mostly. Heck, it could even be that what I call 'tweaking' is just the simple fact (as I've mentioned elsewhere) that in an infinite universe, every probability is not just possible, it's fact.

But, it does seem a pretty strange thing that not only does Life seem to have developed on Earth, but also that it has diversified as it did, and developed Us (the most arrogant life ever), and given us what appear to be unique circumstances allowing us to grow, expand, and learn beyond our planet. Of course, this may also be arrogant, wishful thinking - I fully grant you that - or it may be that Deity 'tweaked' probability to allow the exceedingly slim chance of life developing at all to be successfully followed by the exceedingly slim chances that led to our Evolutionary Chain and ultimately the Development of Man.

As for the Tweaks to Life - I admit to lacking the proper documentation, but I remember reading recently that every evolutionary stage is marked by a burst of new development genetically, followed by a very long time of only minor changes - the shift from single-celled to multi-celled organisms, from sea life to land life, from Dinosaur-dominance to Mammal-dominance... If there's any fact to that at all, then isn't it possible that Deity 'tweaked' Genetics just a bit so that life's evolution jumped at different stages?

As for 'breaking the rules', I expect that Deity keeps the basic Laws of Physics, etc. pretty much intact all the time, but occasionally 'bends' those rules to do some tweaking - heck, QM/QP might be the evidence of Deity's 'tweak' mechanism... or for that matter, all those darned Cosmic Particles that are rushing through us but not touching anything... I read recently that if a Cosmic Particle hits something (an exceedingly small chance), it often invokes a huge change, like a sudden mutation in a DNA chain, or even something as huge as a geological crack forming... I can't remember off the top of my head what that was about, something about particles so tiny that they pass through most everything, but moving so fast that if ever they DO hit something, you can pretty much call it quits...

Well, I obviously need to hit the books some more.

As to the proof of the non-existence of God - Well, let's face it. Some people prefer proof of existence - that is, they prefer to believe only what can be proven to them. Others prefer to believe only what hasn't been disproven to them.

Since it's essentially impossible to disprove Deity, someone will always believe in it. Unicorns were much easier to debunk, and some folks still believe in those, too.

One problem, of course, is that our Universe is Material, while Deity is undoubtably Immaterial (some claim) or of some Material we have no experience with. I have no problem with this, save only that at any point where the Immaterial has to interact with the Material, it must become Material - meaning it must then obey Material laws and Material rules. Other than this catch, I have no problem with an immaterial God... of course, this makes God immune to Science... and immune to disproof.

Also makes God darned hard to prove.

[SkepticPete]

Hmm interesting points..........unfortunately I haven't read the Hitchhiker trilogy ( though I'm sure I would enjoy it from what little I have heard).



As to the proof of the non-existence of God - Well, let's face it. Some people prefer proof of existence - that is, they prefer to believe only what can be proven to them. Others prefer to believe only what hasn't been disproven to them.

Wow I think you've really hit the nail on the head here.
This is exactly how most of my peers view things, especially religion.

However it comes back to my quote, that after all this time we still have no proof of god or deity and surely it is time to consider seriously the possibility that there is NO deity (or at least no deity that actually matters in any real sense).

Let's just for a moment wonder what our human race would now be like if we had been able to unshackle ourselves from religion in all it's forms ages ago.

[Z]

or at least no deity that actually matters in any real sense

And here's the keystone of religion today: if God exists, how much does God really matter?

That's why I think Deity works through our dreams and inspirations... because if Deity created Everything, and is in Everything, and is a part of Everything, then we are a part of Deity too... and those flashes of inspiration, those sudden insights, those dreams and crazy ideas - all from Deity via us. We are Deity, Deity is us... nothing else really matters, does it?

No more burning animals for a 'sweet savor' - no concerns about a rapture or a multi-headed beast. No looking for a crazy man in sandals and robes spouting Olde Tyme Jewish Mumbo-Jumbo.

Just life, as we know it... ad infinitum.

For me, being a Priest is as much about comforting others as it is anything else... sort of a social worker/psychological counselor kind of job. I help people with their beliefs and work the rituals because it helps them feel better, helps them to help themselves.

Anyway - keep up the comments, SPete... It's helping a lot.

As for the God debate - well, people NEED a deity. Who knows why? Probably fear of death... or some other primitive concern we can never fully shed.

Well, I think I'm off to play Vice City now - See y'alls tomorrow.

[wittgenst3in]

Nice narrative Zaayrdragon. Made me crack a smile, especially this bit:
"And, so, the Universe formed, and Deity saw that It Was Neat." :D +10 points for a hitch-hikers reference too.

The situation that you've described is obviously possible, but as you have pointed out, unfalsifiable.

Originally posted by zaayrdragon

As for the God debate - well, people NEED a deity. Who knows why? Probably fear of death... or some other primitive concern we can never fully shed.


Anthropologically speaking, I think part of every society has developed religion of one kind or another, so I understand what you mean by people needing a deity. I think it is the 'default' setting in the brain, to assume there is one. But consider this, the same thing also applies for the notion of 'luck'. Many primitive cultures, and unfortunately some people in our culture still believe in luck.

I've had discussions with work colleagues about gambling, scratch lottery tickets, etc. Along the lines of:

'You see the expensive inlaid carpeting on the casino floor?'
'Yes'
'You see the free drinks they are giving to people?'
'Yes'
'You see the expensive uniforms, neon signs, glittery furnishings? Where do you think they get the money for this?'
'From the tables, of course'
'Right. So this tells you they are making enough profit to spend a s**tload of money on cr@p to bring people in to gamble?'
'Yep'
'Do you think they could do this if the average person was walking away with more than they came with?'
'Probably not'
'Look around at these people, there would have to be a couple of hundred just in this room'
'Yes'
'So what you are betting on is being luckier than everyone else here'
'Yep, could happen'
'And do you think that everyone of them is thinking they are luckier than everyone else?'
'Probably'

You can tell people the odds, explain to them that the majority of people have to walk away in order for the house to continue to exist, and they'll continue to shovel money into these places, to the detriment of their familys, etc.

There are big psychological reasons to believe in luck. People NEED to believe in luck, but I think whether or not you NEED to believe in something is not a good reason to do so.

[Z]

Heh heh... yeah...

(hides his two-headed penny and his lucky beach stone under the chair seat)

Luck, ha ha ha...

(checks the Lunar phase to ensure positive flow of energy...)

Actually, I'm starting to formulate a theory concerning Man's need for religion, science, mythology, and superstition... The four are very closely related, you know. Probably more closely than anyone cares to admit...

EDITED cuz I cant count ...

[Zep]

Leave out the references to deities and related stuff, and you describe the average well-behaved skeptic anyway. Ergo, why do you NEED deities at all to reinforce that concept? They are superfluous.

Haven't we got enough silliness in our day without adding concerns about deities?

[Z]

Perhaps they are... but I likes Deity.

I AM a priest, after all...

ableit a skeptic priest...

But I likes Deity, and I'm stickin' to it. Just like I likes Lego and Hot Wheels.

MAYBE THAT'S IT!

Maybe I've never outgrown Deity.

He he he he

[The Cats Venm]

You have a fascinating world view. I was actually going to ask you about it when i found this post.


Some things that made me curious:

Why does 'Deity' need to tweak anything? Why couldn't it just be content with observing the natural progression of things?

Is it not believable that all mythology was simply made up, rather than assisted by a deity?

Why would humans be more interesting than other animals?

Why would a Deity feel the need to judge anything? Why would any of the things we do 'disgust' it?

I'm mostly just curious about how your views affect the way you live your life. Why do you hold them? How would you act differently if you changed them? What purpose do they serve to you?


I personally feel that there are three options for the beginning of everything:
1) It just happened. No god, no purpose, everything just inexplicably started.
2) God made everything but changes nothing. This god can never be observed or proven, and just serves as an ultimate 'cause'.
3) Nothing starts or stops. Time simply loops back on itself and everything keeps eternally chugging along.

What these all have in common is that none of them entail any supernatural, paranormal, or otherwise mysterious effects on the universe. They are simply beginnings, and have no impact beyond that. I have no belief in one over the others and cannot fathom any evidence that would allow me to ever pick.

Your beliefs seem close to 2), but you have added what seems to me to be a lot of unnecessary material on top.

[Hutch]

Interesting take, mine is very similar but even shorter:

~15 billion years ago (as we humans measure time) God(s) said "Let their be Physics" and with a big Bang there was Physics and God(s) said "Cool".

~5 billion years ago, God(s) said "Let there be Evolution" and with a binding of amino acids there was Evolution and God(s) said "Way Cool".

And somewhere in the future (between tomorrow and 20 billion years from now), God(s) will say "alright, we're shutting down for now" and in a great gathering of entropy, all will be darkness again.

I do not accept the "tweak" therory, although I do find it interesting. Just not enough evidence that what you see as 'tweaking' is just part of the cosmic roll of the dice and some nteresting social/genetic combinations that come along now and then.

[Z]

Hutch, your views are just fine. That I choose to see 'tweaking' doesn't really imply much of anything - in fact, the possibility of these things happening at all is my 'evidence' of tweaking.

In fact, you might even say that my Deity is the 'original source', the 'sum of all matter and energy', and the 'physical laws of the Universe', all combined into one. Tweaking may even be a non-action on Deity's part, inasmuchas the rules and probabilities were established IN THE BEGINNING and have unfolded thusly.

TCV, I'd swear that 90-99% of the answer to your questions are based firmly in human arrogance. As to why humans might fascinate or disgust Her (use of feminine only due to the concept that men don't usually deliver life unto the universe...), well, that's another conceit of course, but the fact is, of all creatures on Earth, Man is the most... well, peculiar.

I won't get into that here, but Man is without a doubt the CRAZIEST critter the Earth has ever spit up.

As to why I hold my views and how they affect my life... Honestly, I've spent two and a half decades fighting the concept of religion from one end or another. I've read all the tomes, studied the rites, watched the sermons and the ceremonies. In the end, I come up with the idea that something is there, but most people are being fooled by flim-flam men of the ancient world.

I've personally experienced phenomenae which would cause the average skeptic to question their senses and thinking, or at least make them search REALLY HARD for the cause... So in spite of logic and reason, I still cling to 'supernatural' phenomenae, that is, things that don't fit with Science as we know it yet.

But I never claim to know what those are :D

I live my life by the rules I outlined... and probably would, no matter what. (When I was 10, I wanted to live by the 3 Laws of Robotics, but there were complications...)