Why has the World's Smallest Political Quiz changed?

[Snide]

I noticed there's no longer a minimum wage question, and I think something else that's not ringing a bell right now.

Quiz (http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html)

Thanks to the quiz change, I'm more libertarian than ever. Not that I'm ready to vote Libertarian yet...

edited typo

[rdaneel]

I seem to recall there was a foreign policy question. Something about treaties I think.

It moved me closer to libertarian too, which means it's way off for me. The polls bias is even more obvious now.

[Earthborn]

Many items are changed, replaced or worded very differently. And it does indeed make one more likely to end up rated as libertarian.

Here are the original questions:

Personal Issues: Military service should be voluntary (no draft).
Government should not control radio, TV, the press or the internet.
Repeal Regulations on sex for consenting adults.
Drug laws do more harm than good. Repeal them.
Let peaceful people cross borders freely.(that last one was differently worded in the internet quiz. I took this from the PDF.)

Economic issues:
Businesses and farms should operate without government subsidies.
People are better off with free trade than with tariffs.
Minimum wage laws cause unemployment. Repeal them.
End Taxes. Pay for services with user fees.
All foreign aid should be privately funded.

[Earthborn]

Here (http://www.theadvocates.org/library/poll-results.html) are the results of the quiz for many Americans. The original questions are used.

[rdaneel]

Gee, what a surprise. Earthborns link shows that questions where the majority disagreed with libertarian positions were removed, and the tax removal question that most people disagreed with was modified to something more people would agree with.

Nope, no bias there, no-sir-ee bob, you can all go home now.:D

[Snide]

I notice Authoritarian has been replaced by Statist as well. Not sure of the reasoning.

[Larspeart]

Simple.

In the old survey, NO ONE said they were an authoritarian. This tells me one of two things:

1. No one knew what the hell an authoritarian is.

or. . .

2. It sounded too much like authoritarian, which makes people think that by saying they are one, they are pro-hitler or something.

[Thanz]

Interesting. The internet quiz is quite different than even the PDF version that Earthborn posted.

Some of the questions I like better. For example, I think "Repeal laws prohibiting adult possession and use of drugs" is better than "Drug laws do more harm than good. Repeal them."

On other issues, I was kind of stumped. For example, I don't know what the issues are surrounding a National ID card.

On the economic side, I thought the questions are a little more sketchy. For example, I don't believe that welfare can be replaced by private charity. Implicit in the question is that this is possible. Further, I'm not sure what they mean by "government barriers to free trade", considering that one of the Libertarian premises (as I understand it) is to have the gov't at least partially funded by tariffs, which would be such barriers.

BTW, on this quiz I moved from "Left liberal" to "Centrist", but on the border of the two.

[Cain]

This quiz is still bulls**t.

Here are the results from the three million times the quiz has been taken:

Libertarian 27.70 %
Left-liberal 25.01 %
Centrist 30.22 %
Right-Conservative 10.18 %
Statist 6.89 %

Polls regularly indicate that self-described conservatives (in America) outnumber self-described liberals 2 to 1. The intention (or at least the effect) of this quiz is to usher people into the libertarian view.

I never understood the National ID card crowd, either. I'm already identified by my driver's license. Government and major corporations have no difficulty tracking my movements.

Why, just this evening as I was walking to the corner store for Orange Juice, the LAPD showed their concern for my personal safety. I wasn't aware that there was a curfew in effect in certain neighborhoods of Los Angeles during school nights for those dastardly children under the age of 17, and being 23 I normally would not be worried about such a curfew. But the LAPD is so much the bastion of dilligence, that they stopped me on my way back from the store with my orange juice and informed me that I was out after curfew. My astounded reply was that I was 23 and the curfew did not affect me, but once more the kindly LAPD officer was so concerned for my personal safety that he asked me for identification to prove it. Shame-faced because I had forgotten that I live in a Police State where my papers are required at all times, I allowed the jovial gent in blue to follow me home where I presented him with two forms of valid ID. Thank god they're out there patrolling the street!

How I learned to stop worrying and love the LAPD (http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=739006)

[shanek]

Originally posted by Snide
I noticed there's no longer a minimum wage question, and I think something else that's not ringing a bell right now.

The stupid immigration question. That one is GONE. And Social Security was decided to be a more encompassing question than Minimum Wage.

They do this every few years. It's how the quiz has gotten to be one of the most accurate and respected of its kind. Funny thing; they want people to show up in the Libertarian quadrant when they actually are Libertarians. Some of the older questions tended to move legitimate Libertarians away, and others moved people who were more closely associated with other groups towards Libertarians.

With the old questions, about 3% of the quiz takers got put in completely the wrong place. Hopefully, these new revisions will lower that number.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Earthborn
Here (http://www.theadvocates.org/library/poll-results.html) are the results of the quiz for many Americans. The original questions are used.

Those actually aren't the original questions. The original questions, which date back to about 1986, were completely different. The quiz evolves over time to try and become more accurate.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Thanz
Some of the questions I like better. For example, I think "Repeal laws prohibiting adult possession and use of drugs" is better than "Drug laws do more harm than good. Repeal them."

Yeah, it's less in-your-face. Also, the tax question also mentions cutting spending, which was a sticking point for a lot of people.

On other issues, I was kind of stumped. For example, I don't know what the issues are surrounding a National ID card.

It's caused quite a bit of controversy in the last few years. I don't know what their reasoning was for including that specific question, but it's a lot better than the stupid immigration question. (Not that the subject isn't valid, but they could never get the wording right, and it didn't distinctly indicate liberal or conservative anymore.)

On the economic side, I thought the questions are a little more sketchy. For example, I don't believe that welfare can be replaced by private charity.

That's my least favorite of the new questions. It could be worded a lot better.

Further, I'm not sure what they mean by "government barriers to free trade", considering that one of the Libertarian premises (as I understand it) is to have the gov't at least partially funded by tariffs, which would be such barriers.

Not if there are equivalent excises on domestic goods.

BTW, on this quiz I moved from "Left liberal" to "Centrist", but on the border of the two.

Cool. From talking with you, that sounds more like where you probably are in my estimation. And again, the idea is to try and make people Centrist when they don't definitively fit one of the other four categories.

(BTW, there's no such thing as a "borderline centrist" on the Nolan Chart. If you're on the border of Centrist, you're a Centrist. The reason why is to make the area for Centrist equivalent to the other four areas.)

[shanek]

Originally posted by Cain
This quiz is still bulls**t.

Here are the results from the three million times the quiz has been taken:

Libertarian 27.70 %
Left-liberal 25.01 %
Centrist 30.22 %
Right-Conservative 10.18 %
Statist 6.89 %

Keep in mind those are the three million people who have gone to the site and taken the quiz. You can expect those to be more libertarian, and probably more liberal, too, than the general population. In fact, if you read the site you'll see that they point that out.

I never understood the National ID card crowd, either. I'm already identified by my driver's license.

That isn't national.

How I learned to stop worrying and love the LAPD (http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=739006)

Nice one. I like Tom Bailey's How the Government Cured Me of Paranoia (http://radio.weblogs.com/0137419/stories/2004/05/19/howTheDemopublicansCuredMeOfParanoia.html).

[Snide]

Originally posted by shanek


The stupid immigration question. That one is GONE. And Social Security was decided to be a more encompassing question than Minimum Wage.

They do this every few years. It's how the quiz has gotten to be one of the most accurate and respected of its kind. Funny thing; they want people to show up in the Libertarian quadrant when they actually are Libertarians. Some of the older questions tended to move legitimate Libertarians away, and others moved people who were more closely associated with other groups towards Libertarians.

With the old questions, about 3% of the quiz takers got put in completely the wrong place. Hopefully, these new revisions will lower that number.

Thanks for this and the other thoughtful responses.

I've identified myself as "socially liberal; fiscally conservative" for quite some time, and more simply-put "left-leaning moderate," which means my socially-liberal side weighs a little heavier.

So where does someone, like myself, who is really more libertarian than Democrat or Republican go (on the internet) to believe he'll be well represented by the LP? (Assume that I have a prejudice that the LP is too extreme on the social/economic scales for me.)

Sorry if you've answered this in a previous thread...you probably have.

edited to correct sentence that didn't make sense and add the last sentence.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Snide
So where does someone, like myself, who is really more libertarian than Democrat or Republican go (on the internet) to believe he'll be well represented by the LP? (Assume that I have a prejudice that the LP is too extreme on the social/economic scales for me.)

I honestly don't understand what you're asking here.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by shanek


I honestly don't understand what you're asking here.

He's asking where can he go to find information to help him get over his notion that the LP is full of crackpots and kooks that really don't represent moderate libertarians.

(I'll leave my opinion out of this as you may be aware of what I think.... then again what the heck, just a little semi-crypitic shot won't hurt anything...)

Good luck with that. :p

[Earthborn]

Originally posted by shanek
Those actually aren't the original questions.Okay, maybe I should have said: the questions as they used to be before.The stupid immigration question. That one is GONE.I didn't think it was a stupid question. Even though I am now a lot closer to Libertarian (Centrist, top left corner), the issue I consider most important of all the issues raised in the test, and the single issue that might persuade me to vote Libertarian if I could, is now gone. If I would know nothing about libertarianism and I would take the test, not being informed what the opinion of libertarians was on immigration, I would never dream of voting for them.

I think the problem is that the quiz as two different goals that can contradict eachother:The goal of the Quiz is to give a fast, fun, and accurate assessment of a person’s overall political views, and to place those views on a new multi-spectrum "political map" that is far more accurate, insightful, and thorough than older political guidelines (such as the "left-right" line).Part of the Advocates mission was to introduce and explain libertarian ideas to the public. Fritz found that Nolan’s chart was a great help in explaining how libertarianism was distinct from conservatism and liberalism.So it is both an attempt to accurately measure someone's political views, and a bit of a 'witnessing tool'.

If your goal is to accurately measure someone's political stance, then the test should be designed in such away that people end up in the area they identify with the most. If on the other hand you want to use it to help explain libertarian views, you'll have to put in questions that reflect views that are typical of libertarianism.

[Snide]

Originally posted by shanek


I honestly don't understand what you're asking here.

Ha. It looked worse before I edited it!

I just mean that if I am socially liberal and economically conservative, sounds like the LP, right? I want much more liberal drug laws and much more conservative (lower, less complicated) tax laws, for example. But the LP seems just too extreme (as if a 100/100 score on the WSPQ is the official party line). Of course, I'm sure that's not 100% accurate.

So I'm just looking for some good internet sources (of course I can Google, too, I suppose), that might make me change my mind about the LP being that extreme.

Maybe a better question is this: you've mentioned before how Libertarians can disagree amongst each other...do you have any links to good debates among Libertarians?

[Snide]

Originally posted by Suddenly


He's asking where can he go to find information to help him get over his notion that the LP is full of crackpots and kooks that really don't represent moderate libertarians.

(I'll leave my opinion out of this as you may be aware of what I think.... then again what the heck, just a little semi-crypitic shot won't hurt anything...)

Good luck with that. :p

Something like that...

What's a moderate libertarian to do? Is Jesse Ventura running for anything this year? :)

[shanek]

Originally posted by Earthborn
I didn't think it was a stupid question.

Okay, the question itself was far from stupid. But it was completely unworkable in the context of the quiz. I think they reworded that question more than any of the others, and it still never came out right. It was fine for pinpointing the libertarians; they're pretty much going to answer "yes." But it kept people from scoring in the liberal quadrant when that's what they were. Or, to put it another way, so many people who scored "liberal" answered "no" to the question that it obviously wasn't a good metric.

I think the problem is that the quiz as two different goals that can contradict each other: So it is both an attempt to accurately measure someone's political views, and a bit of a 'witnessing tool'.

Not when you consider the fact that the goal is not conversion, but identifying people who already mostly agree with us. When you're giving out materials on a low budget, you need to focus them as much as possible, and the quiz is a big help there.

If your goal is to accurately measure someone's political stance, then the test should be designed in such away that people end up in the area they identify with the most.

Well, the quiz was designed to be a one-on-one thing, where you score the person, then you explain the Nolan chart and ask them where they think they belong (or vice-versa, either order). People who might not otherwise think of themselves as libertarian can then identify themselves since they're both for freedom in personal and economic matters. The problem comes in when, after explaining it to them, they identify themselves as being in a completely different area than where they scored.

It's there to, as accurately as possible, identify people who already agree with libertarian goals, and to do it in only ten questions. That's not an easy thing. Afterwards, when you've gotten their interest, you can talk about immigration and gay marriage and all sorts of other issues. There's just no way you can hit everybody's hot button issue in only ten questions.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Snide
I just mean that if I am socially liberal and economically conservative, sounds like the LP, right? I want much more liberal drug laws and much more conservative (lower, less complicated) tax laws, for example. But the LP seems just too extreme (as if a 100/100 score on the WSPQ is the official party line). Of course, I'm sure that's not 100% accurate.

It isn't. I'll give you an anecdote as an example: radio talk show host Neal Boortz is a Libertarian, he has spoken at the conventions and has openly endorsed Libertarian candidates and issues. But he disagrees vehemently with the Libertarian stance on the Iraq war. Some convention goers didn't like that, some because it didn't make him a "pure" Libertarian, others because they felt the war was just too strong an issue to compromise on.

Anyway, they start up this campaign to boycott the Boortz breakfast at the convention, even though he wasn't going to talk about the war at all (his talk was on asset forfeiture). They make this big to-do about it, and there's no way that many convention goers didn't know about it. On the morning where Neal spoke at breakfast, I (as anti-war as I am) gladly attended the breakfast and had a blast. I heard later that the anti-war crowd had a little more than a dozen people (out of over 1000 convention attendees) at their anti-war protest thingy.

The Boortz breakfast was standing room only.

What percent do you need to be to be a libertarian? I don't pretend to know, and everyone seems to have their own opinion. Personally, if you agree with us more often than you agree with either the Democrats or the Republicans, I'll take you. :D

So I'm just looking for some good internet sources (of course I can Google, too, I suppose), that might make me change my mind about the LP being that extreme.

I really don't know. Everywhere you go, you have the more extremist (100x100 or else you ain't) variety, and you have the more reasonable people. Judging by the conventions and events that I've gone to, most Libertarians are the more reasonable kind.

(Actually, the fun part is when you get two groups of extremists&mash;say, the anarchists and the Randians—fighting it out between them over which of them are the "real" Libertarians!)

Maybe a better question is this: you've mentioned before how Libertarians can disagree amongst each other...do you have any links to good debates among Libertarians?

Well, there's a Catch-22 here. If you go onto a Libertarian list that allows participation by outsiders, then of course you're going to see a lot more unity among them, reaching out to the non-libs (and you also seem to see a lot more of the extremists there, for some reason). To see the real controversies, you need to go to the Libertarian-only groups—but, then, you'd be a Libertarian already, joining those.

[Cain]

Originally posted by shanek


Keep in mind those are the three million people who have gone to the site and taken the quiz. You can expect those to be more libertarian, and probably more liberal, too, than the general population. In fact, if you read the site you'll see that they point that out.[/quote]

True; there's a selection bias. More Libertarians are connected to the Internet, and many of them take that silly quiz. Nevertheless, the questions are still loaded, and push people toward that particular view.


That isn't national.

Well, obviously. Does that make it A-OK? What's the terrible problem (exactly) with a national ID card? Again, government and private businesse have no problem keeping track of my whereabouts.

Nice one. I like Tom Bailey's How the Government Cured Me of Paranoia (http://radio.weblogs.com/0137419/stories/2004/05/19/howTheDemopublicansCuredMeOfParanoia.html).

That one's okay but it needs cosmetic revisions.

[BillyTK]

The quiz still needs some work; I scored 100% on personal issues and 60% on economic issues, which pegs me as a Libertarian, which I'm sure Shanek would agree is a bit of a howler.

I didn't agree with the claim, "Let people control their own retirement; privatize Social Security" because the former doesn't necessarily follow from the latter, and I also didn't agree with the claim "Replace government welfare with private charity" for the reasons that Thanz outlines above. I don't this is particularly indicative of any single political position.

[Whoracle]

Shanek, you're not serious right? I consider myself a libertarian but it doesn't take long to realize the questions are loaded.

[Snide]

Originally posted by BillyTK

...and I also didn't agree with the claim "Replace government welfare with private charity" ...

Me either. I think my problem with the quiz is that it's "yes, maybe, no." Perhaps it would be better to use a 1 to 5, or even 1 to 3 numbering system, and be posed thusly: "With 1 being strongest, and 3 being weakest, how much do you agree with this statement?"

I say this because in regard to the question above, I would answer a definite "no, it should not be replaced." But my broader view on the issue is much less "liberal" than that. I would love to see government welfare downsized greatly, just not replaced altogether.

[Snide]

Originally posted by shanek


It isn't. I'll give you an anecdote as an example: radio talk show host Neal Boortz is a Libertarian, he has spoken at the conventions and has openly endorsed Libertarian candidates and issues. But he disagrees vehemently with the Libertarian stance on the Iraq war. Some convention goers didn't like that, some because it didn't make him a "pure" Libertarian, others because they felt the war was just too strong an issue to compromise on.

Anyway, they start up this campaign to boycott the Boortz breakfast at the convention, even though he wasn't going to talk about the war at all (his talk was on asset forfeiture). They make this big to-do about it, and there's no way that many convention goers didn't know about it. On the morning where Neal spoke at breakfast, I (as anti-war as I am) gladly attended the breakfast and had a blast. I heard later that the anti-war crowd had a little more than a dozen people (out of over 1000 convention attendees) at their anti-war protest thingy.

The Boortz breakfast was standing room only.

What percent do you need to be to be a libertarian? I don't pretend to know, and everyone seems to have their own opinion. Personally, if you agree with us more often than you agree with either the Democrats or the Republicans, I'll take you. :D



I really don't know. Everywhere you go, you have the more extremist (100x100 or else you ain't) variety, and you have the more reasonable people. Judging by the conventions and events that I've gone to, most Libertarians are the more reasonable kind.

(Actually, the fun part is when you get two groups of extremists&mash;say, the anarchists and the Randians—fighting it out between them over which of them are the "real" Libertarians!)



Well, there's a Catch-22 here. If you go onto a Libertarian list that allows participation by outsiders, then of course you're going to see a lot more unity among them, reaching out to the non-libs (and you also seem to see a lot more of the extremists there, for some reason). To see the real controversies, you need to go to the Libertarian-only groups—but, then, you'd be a Libertarian already, joining those.

Thanks. I ask because I first learned about the quiz maybe two-three years ago from a Libertarian at work. I had casually mentioned my "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" bit, and he right away told me I'm probably Libertarian, and directed me to the quiz. But since then it's been a bunch of mixed messages, as with the Dems and Repubs I suppose.

But as you said above, I guess it comes down to, "With which are you most alike?"

Sucks being a socially-left-leaning moderate...you get pulled in three directions! :)

edited typo

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Snide


Me either. I think my problem with the quiz is that it's "yes, maybe, no." Perhaps it would be better to use a 1 to 5, or even 1 to 3 numbering system, and be posed thusly: "With 1 being strongest, and 3 being weakest, how much do you agree with this statement?"
Or possibly "yes/maybe/no/the question is pants". :)

[shanek]

Originally posted by Cain
Well, obviously. Does that make it A-OK?

Sure, as long as participation is voluntary. Once they start forcing it on you, or saying "Papers, please" like they've been doing, that's when it begins to be a problem.

That one's okay but it needs cosmetic revisions.

Probably. It's a transcript of a live speech, though, and the speech (I've heard him deliver it) is fantastic.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Snide
Me either. I think my problem with the quiz is that it's "yes, maybe, no." Perhaps it would be better to use a 1 to 5, or even 1 to 3 numbering system, and be posed thusly: "With 1 being strongest, and 3 being weakest, how much do you agree with this statement?"

I would agree; I'd also like to see another option with each giving weight to each of the issues. (Maybe I'll write an online version that includes those options.) But their argument is that you want someone to fill it out in just a couple of minutes at a booth at a fair.

And yes, there are still aspects and points of view that it doesn't cover. It's still far from perfect. But it's getting better and better as time goes on. I think they've done an outstanding job.

[shanek]

Originally posted by BillyTK
The quiz still needs some work; I scored 100% on personal issues and 60% on economic issues, which pegs me as a Libertarian, which I'm sure Shanek would agree is a bit of a howler.

BTW, is this more or less libertarian than it scored you before?

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Cain
Well, obviously. Does that make it A-OK? What's the terrible problem (exactly) with a national ID card? Again, government and private businesse have no problem keeping track of my whereabouts.
<side-track>Moan, moan, moan. Exactly how much of your liberties will be compromised by having to carry a little piece of plastic, when you bear in mind how much that little piece of plastic is going to defend you against terrorist attack? Fact: research shows that Arab terrorists would never think to counterfeit these cards, and will stand out like, well, a very obvious standy-out thing if they ever try to infiltrate the country once ID cards have been introduced. And soon we'll have a handy subcutaneous chip, so you'll not even have to worry about carrying your card with you at all times! Then you'll have nothing to complain about!
</side-track>

[crimresearch]

I'm pretty sure you've exceeded your sarcasm minutes for this month.

Watch those overage charges.
:p

[Cain]

Originally posted by shanek Sure, as long as participation is voluntary. Once they start forcing it on you, or saying "Papers, please" like they've been doing, that's when it begins to be a problem.

See, that's a major problem with your conception of "voluntary." Driving is a necessity in California, especially southern California. Besides, you have to go to the DMV to get an ID card even if you choose not to drive an automobile.

I still don't think you answered the question about why a national ID card is so e-ville.

Billy:

:)