Feng Shui Test

[Richard]

Hi all

Here is a letter that came in to Australian Skeptics

==========================
I am intersted (sic) in a test to prove/disprove of the effectiveness of Feng Shui. I am a Feng Shui consultant and would like to take your challenge.

I do not know how to prove that Feng Shui work for you but I will be interested in any tests that you propose.
==========================

Does anyone have any suggestions for a test protocol?

[The Don]

The difficulty in testing Feng Shui is distinguishing the difference between laying out a room so as to maximise the "energy flow" and laying out a room well.

For example, Feng Shui masters may claim that applying Feng Shui to a retail space will increase sales. Their advice MAY include:

- Placing the register near the door
- Enabling people to "flow" (that's move in real money) around the store easily
- Putting lighting up in certain places to ease the energy flow
- Avoiding sharp corners and dead ends
- Avoiding dark places

None of that is particularly mysterious and just sounds like good retail practice to me. "Feeling good" in a space or achieving better productivity is a recognised result of good interior design. It just seems that the Feng Shui masters may have codified it in mystic terms.

The key, I suppose is to find some kind of objective measure of hte "energy flow" in the room

[steenkh]

It seems to me to be very difficult to test. We need a number of rooms/houses/flats which can be built/rearranged/redecorated (aargh I sound like Kumar!) and the people living in those rooms must not be aware whether they have been arranged according to Feng Shui or not.

The effect of Feng Shui is a long-term effect, so the test needs to last for a longer period, and because it is all in the heads of people, it will be very very difficult to judge whether there is an effect or not.

I think we need some concrete claims from the Feng Shui adherents before a test can be arranged, if it is at all possible.

[Stitch]

IIRC F.S. (rather than B.S. :D ) suggests that not only can things be arranged in a positive way, they can also be arranged in a negative way.

So could we not compare +ve to -ve to neutral over time and see if the neutral ones do endu up in the middle?

[Hellbound]

I think just any method to detect the energy might be best.

I'd suggest the following:

Gather a group of accepted (licensed or whatever) Feng Shuites. Have them properly arrange say, 2 rooms to maximize health, 2 to maximize wealth, etc, and arrange some to maximize something else or just to violate several principles.

Then, have your testee go into the rooms and detect:

Which rooms are already properly arranged, and for what aspect.
Which rooms are misaligned.

Just a thought, but if Feng Shui is a science and actually has some sort of detectable effect, this should be easy. However, it necessarily involves the inclusion of more than one feng shuite, which brings up the possibility of a "No True Scotsman" defense. Not sure how to get around that, as letting the testee choose the arrangers might allow for pre-arranged set-ups...not real sure.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by Huntsman
I think just any method to detect the energy might be best.

I'd suggest the following:

Gather a group of accepted (licensed or whatever) Feng Shuites. Have them properly arrange say, 2 rooms to maximize health, 2 to maximize wealth, etc, and arrange some to maximize something else or just to violate several principles.

Then, have your testee go into the rooms and detect:

Which rooms are already properly arranged, and for what aspect.
Which rooms are misaligned.

Just a thought, but if Feng Shui is a science and actually has some sort of detectable effect, this should be easy. However, it necessarily involves the inclusion of more than one feng shuite, which brings up the possibility of a "No True Scotsman" defense. Not sure how to get around that, as letting the testee choose the arrangers might allow for pre-arranged set-ups...not real sure.


Unless I am missing something here, the results from the test you suggest should be pretty impressive assuming all FS guys work to the same pricipals (whatever they may be), chair by the window for wealth for example. This is visually obvious. It doesn't follow however that the room's energy is better or worse as a result. Unless the second FS guy can "sense" then extra energy and is taken in to the room blindfold, then you may as well put a notice on the door telling them what the room is supposed to be doing.

[Sloe_Bohemian]

Penn and Teller did a test with multiple Feng Shui artists that involved comparing how each arranged the same house... obviously they each did it differently. But that just lets each one declare the others to be false.

You really need to have the Feng Shui artist state specific claims prior to learning anything about a test space. But most of what they will decide will come from their experience in the space. (I.E. these red curtains inflame the pancreas, or that side of the bed will cause the person on this side to have more anxiety and stress.) So you would need to agree beforehand how you're going to approach those claims and structure tests for them. (in very general terms) Then you can test anything with real-world predictions that is given. The more spaces you can test with and the greater variety in test goals (measure positive, negative and neutral) with plenty of placebo and/or control spaces... well, the more revealing the tests will be.

I've always wondered if the FS_artist is able to say that sleeping on one side of the bed (in it's current position) will cause a specific medical problem; why we can't just ask the owners if the person who sleeps there has that medical problem and call the experiment complete. They'll surely get it wrong, so just go to a home where the people say they haven't changed habits in their movements throughout the house for years. If they assure you they've been doing things the same way for years and the FS_artist makes a claim about their lives that isn't true... that would appear to be the whole game right there. The key is to lay the seeds of cold reading... let the FA_artist know that the occupants may have a host of medical problems, but you can't tell them which... if any even exist. Then the poor slob is sure to start predicting a host of ailments.

[sackett]

This feng hooie artist has a lot of nerve asking somebody else to design a test. He's the one claiming an effect, let him demonstrate it.

I confess I'd enjoy watching say half a dozen of these con jobbers rearrange a room, one after the other, each correcting the previous one's mistakes.

It shouldn't be too hard to assemble a bunch of them for a test. Look in the yellow pages under Bunko.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Me: What are you trying to optimize?

Shuizer: The energy flow in this room.

Me: How do you measure the energy flow?

Shuizer: I have no idea.

Me: Then I stipulate that you have optimized it.

~~ Paul

[CFLarsen]

Find out what she claims to be able to do, specifically. It has to be quantifiable and measurable, though.

[SRW]

My sister-in law is a Feng Shui, expert, when she lived with us a few years a go she Feng Shuied our house. I had to unFeng Shui it to make livable. She told me it was OK because she had hung crystals arround to house so the bad chi would flow out no matter how the house was arranged.

I have to admit I have not seen any bad chi, we did have to spray for termites, however I did not catch thier names.

I don't have a clue how to test this becuase anything good that happens is a result of Feng Shui, anyting bad is ghosts.

[WildCat]

All chi flows to Chi-cago!

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by WildCat
All chi flows to Chi-cago!

Absolutely right! That's what makes it a toddling town! :D

http://taddeo.4t.com/chicago0302b.jpg

Feng-Shui is inherently untestable in the absense of an objective manner of measuring chi directly, after having proved that it exists.

Otherwise it amounts to whether Chinese aesthetic principles are nicer. And aesthetics is the science of accounting for tastes. :p

[SezMe]

Originally posted by Richard
Hi all

Here is a letter that came in to Australian Skeptics

==========================
I am intersted (sic) in a test to prove/disprove of the effectiveness of Feng Shui. I am a Feng Shui consultant and would like to take your challenge.

I do not know how to prove that Feng Shui work for you but I will be interested in any tests that you propose.
==========================

Does anyone have any suggestions for a test protocol?
As others have pointed out, AS should start by requiring the FS guru to specify HIS/HER claim(s). After all, he claims to be a FS consultant so begin by asking what his/her services are? What benefits does his customer get? How does the customer know? You on your way to an hypothesis. THEN you can move on to test protocol. Any other approach is basackwards.

[Richard]

OK.. here is the claim...

------------

Feng Shui service in a nut shell is mainly to analyse the luck of the customer, the luck energy of his home and offering him/her suggestions such as to change the interior design of his home, the colour/types of cloths he should wear, the location and direction he should sit when working so that he can have better luck in earning more money, have better health, have better luck in his love life, etc. So it is up to the customer to tell us whether there are any improvements after feng shui remedies are implemented and we have to accept their words for it. Furthermore, most of the times, as most customers are not sure about the hour of their birth or the age of their properties, the feng shui consultants will have to tests different locations for the feng shui cures and different cures prior to obtain the required results. These can take up to 3 months.

I propose that I will provide free feng shui consultancy services for 100 customers of your choice. They or/ your group will have to pay for their own feng shui cures as suggested by me. As Feng shui is a metaphysic, the customers will have to agree to sign a type of agreements to waive their right to sue me for any consequent of their feng shui cures. They are welcome to purchase feng shui ornaments from anywhere they like as long as the qualities of these ornaments are accepted by me. Some of the houses/ business properties will not be suitable for feng shui cures as the cure will be too expensive and we will have to select other customers whose houses have better luck. I would like to know out of 100 customers, how many customers will have to advise you that they experience better luck as a result of my feng shui cures before your organisation believes that Feng shui work.

Regards,

----------------------

So there you go. We are working on a reply.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Richard
I propose that I will provide free feng shui consultancy services for 100 customers of your choice. They or/ your group will have to pay for their own feng shui cures as suggested by me.

I am a psychic attorney. I use my powers to increase the luck of my clients.

Please arrange 100 clients for me as part of a test protocol. They or your group will have to pay me for the psychic work that I will be performing. . . .

Honestly, even if the test is a dismal failure and he admits it, he gets 100 new jobs fully paid for??

Puh-lease.


N/A

[SRW]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger



Honestly, even if the test is a dismal failure and he admits it, he gets 100 new jobs fully paid for??

Puh-lease.


N/A

This sounds oddly like purchasing software from Microsoft.

[Sloe_Bohemian]

I don't know how to calculate success rate... obviously more than 50%... but people "see" the effects they are looking for... so I'd assume it has to be a good deal above 50%.

For the contestants you need to look for specific markers that the FS consul agrees to in wealth, health and love. People generally improve wealth with age naturally, so you need to account for regularly occuring raises and such. Health is naturally deteriating... a good history is needed, including any new exercise programs or diets.

You should try to place controls over the FS's ability to learn financial, medical or personal histories on clients. And you should get the FS to agree ahead of time to state specific health risks/conditions that he feels should already exist because of the current physical properties (i.e. if having the bed face South will affect the pancreas... then he must make the claim that he expects the current resident to have these conditions... and chart how often these claims are correct by having the residents checked by a doctor.)

The clients should also track the number of times they stub their toe or become irritated (emotionally stressed) because of the inconvenient fashion in which the FS has arranged their home. (Invariably these people make ridiculous decisions about where to put the furniture... and it can be hazardous, or blatant fire-code violations)



But the big issue I read in this... 100 clients!!!!

This guy wants you to do his marketing for him and create a whole new client base. He has a full 100 clients for the next few months and if only 10% are happy... they can still refer dozens more to him and get him into new markets. Taking a challenge in this fashion might just be brilliant marketing for a start-up business.

[troy jones]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger


I am a psychic attorney. I use my powers to increase the luck of my clients.

Please arrange 100 clients for me as part of a test protocol. They or your group will have to pay me for the psychic work that I will be performing. . . .

Honestly, even if the test is a dismal failure and he admits it, he gets 100 new jobs fully paid for??

Puh-lease.
As I understood it, the FS practitioner (is that the right word?) is only asking that the customers pay for their own ornaments/"cures" (e.g. wind chimes, aquariums, whatever) as recommended by the practitioner but not the actual FS consulting fee.

[JimTheBrit]

The applicant's claims emphasise an increase in luck and wealth for the customer. The first thing that springs to my mind is 'lottery'. Is the applicant stating that a customer's luck in lotteries would be greater after application of feng shui techniques than before (with the obvious improvement in regards to wealth)? Could this direction be used somehow as a basis for a much simpler test than the one proposed above?

[SquishyDave]

What about this bit?

Furthermore, most of the times, as most customers are not sure about the hour of their birth or the age of their properties, the feng shui consultants will have to tests different locations for the feng shui cures and different cures prior to obtain the required results. These can take up to 3 months.

If I have interpreted this rather badly written pasage, they must test the cures for 3 months as the client usually doesn't know how old their various possesions are, or indeed the actual hour of their birth. If these tests on the cures is used to determine something like how old the possesions are, this could be a cheap and easy way to test their claims.

It seems like a long shot, but I would ask more about this bit.

[TheBoyPaj]

His test is not blinded in any way at all. I would expect a large proportion of the customers to report success even if there was none.

[RamblingOnwards]

For blinding, you could set up a percentage of the rooms according to modern design principles that the FS expert would deem 'bad'.

Or rearrange them all up using 'standard' principles (although this would necesitate the participation of an expert in that) and have the FS expert label which would cause 'good luck' and which 'bad luck' (and in which areas).

Or tell the FS expert to only optomise for one thing (wealth/health/etc) in each case and get participants to record seperately any change in 'luck' (good or bad) in all possible areas.

That still leaves the major problem of finding volunteers and the purchase of gimicky water features/ pot plants / whatever so that everyone feels Feng Shui-ed, of course.

RO

[Paul]

It might be interesting to test the Shuists on a number of rooms or houses where the ‘luck’ or success of the occupants is already known. If a person is very successful in a certain field or aspect of life then accordingly they should have arranged their homes to facilitate this.

Clients could be found who are wealthy through various professions, who have specific illnesses or have been in perfect health for some time, who have extremely good and successful relationships or who excel in certain fields – which may or may not make them wealthy as well.

The consultant(s) would then only need to assess the effect of the Feng Shui on the occupants and this could be measured against the known data.

The most interesting clients would be those with contradictory aspects. For example, a mansion belonging to a bankrupt or an otherwise obviously successful person with health problems.

[troy jones]

I would stay away from subjective criteria such as relying on the customer to "tell us whether there are any improvements after feng shui remedies are implemented". No.

"Luck in wealth" at least could be objectively measured over the course of a few years though I think. Just have test subjects (both the "real" ones and the control group) agree to turn in a copy of their income tax returns each year for the duration of the study, then compare the improvements in income of the control group to that of the group that received the Feng Shui consultations.

You shouldn't need 100 people. 20 guinea pigs and 20 in the control group (40 total) should be enough to make people say "hmm" if there is a huge discrepency in wealth between the control group and the test subjects after 5 years I would think.

It's not double-blind in that volunteers for this test will be aware of whether they are in the control group or not, but I think that's ok since (a) devising a fake FS "placebo" indistinguishable from the real thing would be nearly impossible anyway, and (b) income tax returns should be a bit more objective than a subjective feeling of having been more lucky lately and thus less subject to placeo effects / confirmation bias / whatever.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by troy jones
I would stay away from subjective criteria such as relying on the customer to "tell us whether there are any improvements after feng shui remedies are implemented". No.

"Luck in wealth" at least could be objectively measured over the course of a few years though I think. Just have test subjects (both the "real" ones and the control group) agree to turn in a copy of their income tax returns each year for the duration of the study, then compare the improvements in income of the control group to that of the group that received the Feng Shui consultations.

You shouldn't need 100 people. 20 guinea pigs and 20 in the control group (40 total) should be enough to make people say "hmm" if there is a huge discrepency in wealth between the control group and the test subjects after 5 years I would think.

It's not double-blind in that volunteers for this test will be aware of whether they are in the control group or not, but I think that's ok since (a) devising a fake FS "placebo" indistinguishable from the real thing would be nearly impossible anyway, and (b) income tax returns should be a bit more objective than a subjective feeling of having been more lucky lately and thus less subject to placeo effects / confirmation bias / whatever.

An easier solution : Have the Feng Shui expert prepare several rearrangements for each guinea pig, one optimizing for health, one optimizing for wealth, and another optimizing for "luck," et cetera. Give each subject one of the rearrangements, without telling them what it optimizes for. After three months, subjects are asked to evaluate their lives on various categories such as "health," "wealth," "luck."

The experimental hypothesis, of course, is that people will improve (the most) in the area their living room has been optimized for. Since the subjects don't know which "improvement" they've been given, confirmation bias shouldn't be an issue. Since we've got several different categories running, each can provide a control group for the others.

[TheBoyPaj]

Anyone else worried about the possibilities for fraud over a 3 month test? What if the "Fenger" saw the configuration that was being used and told the participant what area of their life it was supposed to improve?

Possibly offering them a cut of the prize money?

[troy jones]

Originally posted by drkitten
An easier solution : Have the Feng Shui expert prepare several rearrangements for each guinea pig, one optimizing for health, one optimizing for wealth, and another optimizing for "luck," et cetera. Give each subject one of the rearrangements, without telling them what it optimizes for. After three months, subjects are asked to evaluate their lives on various categories such as "health," "wealth," "luck."
My main concern is that trying to measure things like luck and health objectively is impossible as far as I can tell. Especially luck: will test subjects attribute every life improvement to paranormal "luck" or to skill, determination, or other prosaic factors? It's up to them individually--subjectively--to decide what is meant by luck and how it applies to their lives, and that doesn't really sit well with me. I think for that reason, if at all possible, the test should avoid using questionnaires asking about the subjects' feelings of improvements, especially in fuzzy areas like "luck".

Tax returns OTOH would give us hard numbers that would allow us to calculate out to several decimal places the percent of improvement in the area of wealth for each test subject, and wealth is one area that FS supposedly improves. Obviously not all changes in wealth will be due to FS, but assuming ceterus paribus between the control group and the real group, a marked improvement in the real test subjects' bottom lines above and beyond any improvement in the control group's wealth would give us a clear enough positive result that additional tests would be warranted, while a result showing no significant difference between the two groups would be a clear negative.

In addition, a negative result would seem to me at least to be "stronger" if one group had received FS consulting and one group did not than if one group received FS "optimized" for one thing and the other group received FS "optimized" for something else. In that scenario the FS expert could of course argue after the fact that merely "optimizing" for wealth doesn't necessarily preclude FS-related improvements in health or other areas, and would interpret a slight average improvement in all areas for all groups as a positive, or at least inconclusive, result, whereas a result of slight average improvement for all groups in my system could only be interpreted as a negative result.

Also giving each subject multiple arrangements from which to choose is probably a big departure from the usual method--perhaps a big enough departure to let adherants claim that what was tested wasn't "true" Feng Shui (in the likely event of a negative result). What actually gets tested should resemble the actual FS methods used by this practitioner under normal circumstances as much as possible IMO.

And of course giving each guinea pig three different arrangements instead of just one would greatly increase the cost to whoever foots the bill for all of this. FS practitioners sometimes recommend things like aquariums and such that aren't exactly cheap, and steps should be taken to keep costs under control, at least for this preliminary test.

[garys_2k]

Luck can be objectively ascertained by having each participant buy 10 Lotto tickets every day. After six months it should be clear if anyone has statistically significant better luck than others.

[JimTheBrit]

Originally posted by garys_2k Luck can be objectively ascertained by having each participant buy 10 Lotto tickets every day. After six months it should be clear if anyone has statistically significant better luck than others. Thus the need for a crowd of participants is much reduced - a single 'customer' may be all that's needed. Further (and all in consideration of the extent of the claimed powers, of course), there doesn't need to be any significant period of testing. Purchase one single ticket (or batch, if necessary) before the principle(s) of Feng Shui is/are implemented and one after (when the applicants are sure the effects will be optimal). Compare results. A ticket every day is the other option.

Alas, I suspect that the sensitive currents of Feng Shui cannot be applied to such a blatant act of materialistic gain ;)

Edited to add:
Things that need consideration:
-Where does the Shui have to be introduced? At home only? Work environment? Both?
-How long does the 'customer' have to stay in the boundaries of the Shui-ed up area for a positive effect to be obvious? (1/2/3 hours every day? More?)

Also, it's their application for your prize. They supply the services for the duration of the testing - for free. They supply the ornaments for the duration of the testing - for free.

[gnome]

Originally posted by sackett
This feng hooie artist has a lot of nerve asking somebody else to design a test. He's the one claiming an effect, let him demonstrate it.

I confess I'd enjoy watching say half a dozen of these con jobbers rearrange a room, one after the other, each correcting the previous one's mistakes.

It shouldn't be too hard to assemble a bunch of them for a test. Look in the yellow pages under Bunko.

I think skeptical organizations should be happy to design tests for people that come to them. That is, after all, what they specialize in.

[Kitty Chan]

Its a win situation for the FS expert no matter what.

If they take a persons house and make it neat clean organized in other words cheery, of course a person is going to feel better regardless of it being FS or Ikea or whatever.

Unless the new digs are not to the taste of the occupant.

Luck is only opportunity that has been used.

And I agree, this seems like a wonderful opportunity for FS.