Seriously Folks

[Iacchus]

You know what's funny, is that in a world which has no true meaning -- of course it does, otherwise how could these very words appear before you? -- that we sure take ourselves a bit too seriously! ;) And then you want to pin me down, in all seriousness, and claim that I'm irrational. And yet what right do you have to claim anything is irrational, if there is no meaning to begin with? What a joke! :D

So, does meaning exist in the absolute sense? Yes! :D

[Lothian]

Originally posted by Iacchus
You know what's funny, is that in a world which has no true meaning -- of course it does, otherwise how could these very words appear before you? -- that we sure take ourselves a bit too seriously! ;) And then you want to pin me down, in all seriousness, and claim that I'm irrational. And yet what right do you have to claim anything is irrational, if there is no meaning to begin with? What a joke! :D

So, does meaning exist in the absolute sense? Yes! :D No one in all seriousness claims there is no true meaning. Is is well accepted by rational people that the answer is 42. Unfortunatly some people take the meaning to come from an old book that is clearly a work of fiction:( .

[wittgenst3in]

Some people say that infinity has no colour. Of course it does, otherwise these words could not appear before you!

It only remains to work out what colour it has.

Any bets? Blue is my favourite.

[Filippo Lippi]

I think it's a pinky/grey colour, on the paint colour charts it's called Shades of Spam

[Maledict]

Originally posted by Iacchus
You know what's funny, is that in a world which has no true meaning -- of course it does, otherwise how could these very words appear before you? -- that we sure take ourselves a bit too seriously! ;) And then you want to pin me down, in all seriousness, and claim that I'm irrational. And yet what right do you have to claim anything is irrational, if there is no meaning to begin with? What a joke! :D

So, does meaning exist in the absolute sense? Yes! :D

http://membres.lycos.fr/strabismo/omgrun.JPG

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Iacchus
You know what's funny, is that in a world which has no true meaning And then you want to pin me down, in all seriousness, and claim that I'm irrational.

I, for one, do not claim you are irrational. At least not unintentionally so. <---double negative intentional.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
You know what's funny, is that in a world which has no true meaning -- of course it does, otherwise how could these very words appear before you? -- that we sure take ourselves a bit too seriously! ;) And then you want to pin me down, in all seriousness, and claim that I'm irrational. And yet what right do you have to claim anything is irrational, if there is no meaning to begin with? What a joke! :D
You know what's funny? The way you dodge and weave. We (or at least I) don't take you too seriously--I rarely find anything you say coherent enough. On the rare occasion when you make an actual, verifiable (or falsifiable) statement, I have asked you to support it. You never have. Not once. And these are the easy statements; the rest of your drivel would be much, much harder for you to convince people of.

You propose grandiose visions, but when challenged on minutia, suddenly it is your critic who takes things a bit too seriously. You misunderstand and misrepresent what others say to you (insisting, for instance, on confounding two separate meanings of meaning) to suit your purposes. You post hit-and-run questions to distract from questions put to you.

I do not have to claim you are irrational.

[Z]

There is no absolute meaning - only meaning relative to one who understands.

Just as there is no absolute speed - speed only exists in relation between two objects, where one or both are in motion.

Meaning exists only where there is one to understand that meaning, and one to cause that meaning. A stone on the beach has no meaning inherent to itself, unless something comes along and places that stone somewhere. At that point, the stone has meaning to the placer; yet it may still have no meaning to anyone else.

The logic employed here is undoubtably circular - the Universe has meaning if it was placed by one capable of giving it meaning, and it was placed by one capable of giving it meaning only if it has meaning.

However, the vast majority of the Universe has very little meaning to any of us. Heck, most of our WORLD has very little meaning to most of us.

I think... what you are reaching for is truth, intent, or purpose. Even so... your man of straw is flimsy at best.

[Iacchus]

So, what does it mean to anyone if something is staring you in the face? That it doesn't exist? Certainly at the very least, this is not what it means.

[Piscivore]

Lovely. He's thought up a new catch phrase for us to be spammed with for the next fortnight.

:rolleyes:

[Marquis de Carabas]

We're all irrational at times, Cap'n. That's not the problem. Your problem is fear. You have a healthy and commendable appetite for wonder, but you are afraid to follow through. You fear that subjecting your wonder to rational scrutiny will destroy it, will leave you with some empty nihilistic view of the universe.

Even when people try to show you this is not the case, you resist. You hold back in fear. Many people on this forum hold exactly the same wonder as you, and they face the questions presented boldly, unafraid of the answers to come, assured that with knowledge comes ever more wonder.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Lothian
No one in all seriousness claims there is no true meaning. Is is well accepted by rational people that the answer is 42. Unfortunatly some people take the meaning to come from an old book that is clearly a work of fiction:( . Blasphemy I say! ;)


5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. ~ Revelation 13:5-6 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+13)

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Iacchus
You know what's funny, is that in a world which has no true meaning -- of course it does, otherwise how could these very words appear before you? -- that we sure take ourselves a bit too seriously! ;) And then you want to pin me down, in all seriousness, and claim that I'm irrational. And yet what right do you have to claim anything is irrational, if there is no meaning to begin with? What a joke! :D

So, does meaning exist in the absolute sense? Yes! :D

If there is an absolute meaning, what is it? When is it not defined through reference ?

Where is absolute meaning Iachuss? I don't believe you to be irrational.

What is the meaning of the verb systemarsi in English? It is an Italian word with no correlate in English. Just so there are words in English that have different meaning in foriegn laguages. So how is there an absolute?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Dancing David

If there is an absolute meaning, what is it? When is it not defined through reference ?That everything is relative to the absolute which, is existence (or reality) itself.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
That everything is relative to the absolute which, is existence (or reality) itself. Saved for posterity. I really don't know why, though...I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. It reminds me of Heavy Metal lyrics...all form and no substance: "superficially deep", as a friend (who was a drummer in a fairly successful band [hey, they had 2 videos on MTV!]) recently told me.

Seriously, Iacchus...could you parse this one out for the linguistically challenged among us? What exactly do you mean by the statement I quoted? Could you elaborate? ( I assume it must be important, or you would not have posted it. It must, therefore, but important enough for you to explain it in more detail if your readers did not get it the first time....)

[uruk]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dancing David

If there is an absolute meaning, what is it? When is it not defined through reference ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
reply by Iacchus
That everything is relative to the absolute which, is existence (or reality) itself.

Yea but existance is meaninless. So therefore.........

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Rob Lister

I, for one, do not claim you are irrational. At least not unintentionally so. <---double negative intentional. And I couldn't help but notice your post count is up to 666. Hmm ... Seems to coincide with the second post which brings up the number 42. The same chapter even ...

http://www.dionysus.org/images/rob_666.gif

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. ~ Revelation 13:6-18 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+13)Is this to suggest that only those who subsribe to the maintained view can ever hope to succeed? Indeed, and what if the world were still flat? ;)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by uruk

Yea but existance is meaninless. So therefore......... Really? What do you mean? Of course you do realize that if there was absolutely nothing, there would be nothing to differentiate between the relative meaning of the absolute something which, is the whole.

[Maledict]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Really? What do you mean? Of course you do realize that if there was absolutely nothing, there would be nothing to differentiate between the relative meaning of the absolute something which, is the whole.

:s2:

[uruk]

Woa! Watch out when people start quoting revelations!!!!!!!Is this to suggest that only those who subsribe to the maintained view can ever hope to succeed? Indeed, and what if the world were still flat?
Again!!! There is that IF. Wait a minute!!!! Did you just say that the world was at one time flat? Oh, and which "maintained" view would that be?

Really? What do you mean? Of course you do realize that if there was absolutely nothing, there would be nothing to differentiate between the relative meaning of the absolute something which, is the whole.

Well if there was absolutely nothing then there would be nothing and all would be moot. If, that is.

Anyhoo. I did not say that there was no existance, just stating my opinion that there is no "absolute" meaning to existance. Just relative meaning.
Besides how do you know what we consider the univers is "all" that there is and is thus the "whole"?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by RabbiSatan

:s2: You snooze you lose. :D

[Maledict]

Originally posted by Iacchus
You snooze you lose. :D

No brain, no gain, eh Iacchusdrook?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by uruk

Well if there was absolutely nothing then there would be nothing and all would be moot. If, that is.Exactly! And I only mean that in the absolute sense. :D

[uruk]

Exactly! And I only mean that in the absolute sense.

How can IF be absolute?

[Loki]

Mercutio,

It reminds me of Heavy Metal lyrics...
What, like this :
Someone said
You'll light up the universe
It's there in your head then
Crazy comes to call

Break me down
I'm only an everyone
Running from free
Running from me

And though it's not of my choosing
I'm losing my insanity
Again

Someone said
Forever was yesterday
So open your head when
Crazy comes around

Break me down
I'm only an innocent
Howl at the moon
Knowing that soon

And though it's always confusing
I'm losing my insanity

Round and round
Like the wheels in my mind
Round and round and down and down and down
And down and down

Someone said
Believe in your otherside
It's there in your head and
Waiting for a ride

Break me down
Ah once I was everything
Breaking the law
Quick on the draw

And though it's not of my choosing
I'm losing my insanity
Again

- Ronnie James Dio, Losing My Insanity

Hmmm. I think you're right Mercutio - that is pretty much exactly the same as Iacchus' posts.

Wait a minute...Iacchus is Dio!!

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas

We're all irrational at times, Cap'n. That's not the problem. Your problem is fear. You have a healthy and commendable appetite for wonder, but you are afraid to follow through. You fear that subjecting your wonder to rational scrutiny will destroy it, will leave you with some empty nihilistic view of the universe. No, the problem is it doesn't mean anything ... to me that is. ;)


Even when people try to show you this is not the case, you resist. You hold back in fear. Many people on this forum hold exactly the same wonder as you, and they face the questions presented boldly, unafraid of the answers to come, assured that with knowledge comes ever more wonder. Will be biting no poisoned apples today, thanks! Mine is not the quest for nowledge, but wisdom.

[Loki]

Mercutio,

And just to be fair and balanced, I'll present the "other side" - here's some good Heavy Metal lyrics!!!! (I've bolded a few of the more poetic moments)...

Move out it's time for someone else
Quit thinking only of yourself,
You're really a nasty piece of work,
You know you thought you were a hero but
you're really just a jerk,
On my way, you know I Won't Pay Your Price

You can't stop me dontcha even try,
Gonna stick my finger in your eye,
You don't deserve my admiration,
And I'll sling you out the window
if you give me aggravation,
On my way, you know I Won't Pay Your Price

I'm tired of listening to crap,
I'd rather stab you in the back,
I'm telling you the only real reason that
you ain't gonna get it is 'cos skunk is outta season,
On my way, you know I Won't Pay Your Price

Shut the door behind you when you go,
Why you're still here I don't really know,
I'm gonna count up to three and if you're still here
I'll get a gun and blow away your knees,
On my way, you know I Won't Pay Your Price

- Lemmy, "I Won't Pay Your Price"

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Loki
Mercutio,

And just to be fair and balanced, I'll present the "other side" - here's some good Heavy Metal lyrics!!!! (I've bolded a few of the more poetic moments)...
Um....purely out of respect for previous interactions with you, I will take you at your word...and not give these lyrics the critical examination I am tempted to give them. :D

I fully admit my prejudice. When any Metal lyrics come close to Tom Waits, I will gladly print out this thread and eat it with hot sauce. To me (again, I fully admit that this to me is an admission of bias), it all sounds like these people wrote this pap while goofing off in second-period study hall their sophomore year in high school. ("Dude, you know it doesn't have to rhyme--and forget about carrying a tune; it sounds so much cooler to just yell it...")

...and yeah, I repeat my contention that Iacchus's posts are similar to Metal lyrics. I must, however, in the interest of full disclosure, admit that my friend's band was more accurately described as a "hair band" rather than as a "metal band". But...they were on MTV, and they did suck...

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Mercutio
...and yeah, I repeat my contention that Iacchus's posts are similar to Metal lyrics.

Well, he did once answer one of my questions with a quote from "Stairway".

Originally posted by Mercutio
I must, however, in the interest of full disclosure, admit that my friend's band was more accurately described as a "hair band" rather than as a "metal band". But...they were on MTV, and they did suck...

Yeah, that narrows it down... :D

[Loki]

Mercutio,

it all sounds like these people wrote this pap while goofing off in second-period study hall their sophomore year in high school. ("Dude, you know it doesn't have to rhyme--and forget about carrying a tune; it sounds so much cooler to just yell it...")
Don't be so silly - of course it has to rhyme. Look, here's the proof :

You know it's no lie, my main alibi
It's a waste of time
You know it's the truth, the lyrics the proof
And at least it rhymes

You can have me, 'cos I'm barmy
Completely...
Over the top, over the top
- Lemmy, "Over The Top"
Well, okay, so it doesn't quite rhyme - but it's close!!

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Loki
Mercutio,

Don't be so silly - of course it has to rhyme. Look, here's the proof :

Well, okay, so it doesn't quite rhyme - but it's close!! LOL...the same can be said for my poetry on this forum...and there is near-universal agreement that it sucks!

and yet, I'd stack my most meaningless verse up against...never mind...

[Loki]

Mercutio,

..and there is near-universal agreement that it sucks
Oh. Well, that probably explains everything then - I actually thought you were quite good! Any interest in writing some lyrics for some fabulous new Heavy Metal recordings????

(Incidentally, do you think we've managed to get far enough away from Iacchus yet, or will he try to revive the original pointlessness of this thread? [with due respect given to the current pointlessness, of course])

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Loki
Mercutio,


Oh. Well, that probably explains everything then - I actually thought you were quite good! Any interest in writing some lyrics for some fabulous new Heavy Metal recordings????

(Incidentally, do you think we've managed to get far enough away from Iacchus yet, or will he try to revive the original pointlessness of this thread? [with due respect given to the current pointlessness, of course]) Dude (forgive me for refering to you thusly), I have already penned some incredibly <s>bad</s>, er, fabulous lyrics...too bad for you there is not enough alcohol in the house to get me to post them here.

shhhh...I suspect that the real question is "will anyone notice?"

[Loki]

Mercutio,

Dude (forgive me for refering to you thusly), ...
FORGIVE YOU? You ask a lot, sir. I refer you to :

Here's my story, sad but true
About a girl that I once knew.
She broke my heart, I became unglued,
It all started when she called me dude

Well today I leave the psycho ward
Cause my sentence did conclude:
I had killed a man with my bare hands
Because he called me dude

The jury said that I was insane.
Temporally insane - brain strain.
But now the doctors say I'm A.O.K.
So I start my new life today.

This story starts some years ago
As I vacationed by the sea.
In the California sunshine
Just me & my baby.

I was in love feeling sky high
When a big blonde lifeguard walked by.
He looked at her, she looked at him -
I knew it was good bye.

He took her by the hand, kicked sand in my face.
She looked & laughed & said, "Later Dude!"
They were gone without a trace
And the waves echoed her laughter
And her words...Yo Later Dude.

Later that night I was in such a bad mood
Sittin' in a bar drinkin' hard, getting stewed
Thinkin' 'bout that girl & how 'bout I'd been screwed
When some guy walks in sits next to me & says
What's up dude!

I heard the word dude & I became unglued.
Slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch
And put my hands around his neck, and I squeezed...

Don't call me dude!

So that's how I got where I am
But this ain't where it ends.
The doctors said they cured me
I said good bye to my crazy friends.

I was smiling as I left that place
My life had been renewed.
The guard at the gate, he stamped my pass
And he said, "Yo Later Dude!"

Slowly I turned...

- Scatterbrain - "Don't call me Dude"

And don't get me started on "hair bands".

(Actually, on reflection, this current topic seems strangely well suited a thread entitled "seriously folks")

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Loki
(Actually, on reflection, this current topic seems strangely well suited a thread entitled "seriously folks")

Can I play?

I have a mansion but forget the price
Ain't never been there, they tell me its nice
I live in hotels, tear out the walls
I have accountants pay for it all

They say I'm crazy but I have a have a good time
I'm just looking for clues at the scene of the crime
Life's been good to me so far

My Maseratti does one-eighty-five
I lost my license, now I dont drive
I have a limo, ride in the back
I lock the doors in case I'm attacked

I'm making records, my fans they can't wait
They write me letters, tell me I'm great
So I got me an office, gold records on the wall
Just leave a message, maybe I'll call

Lucky I'm sane after all I've been through
I cant complain but sometimes I still do
Life's been good to me so far

I go to parties sometimes until four
It's hard to leave when you can't find the door
It's tough to handle this fortune and fame
Everybody's so different, I haven't changed

They say I'm lazy but it takes all my time
I keep on goin' guess I'll never know why
Life's been good to me so far

LIFE'S BEEN GOOD (http://www.lyricsxp.com/lyrics/l/life_s_been_good_joe_walsh.html)
Joe Walsh
From: But Seriously Folks, 1978

[Loki]

Piscivore,

Can I play?
Sure!


I have a mansion but forget the price
Ain't never been there, they tell me its nice
I live in hotels, tear out the walls
I have accountants pay for it all

They say I'm crazy but I have a have a good time
I'm just looking for clues at the scene of the crime
Life's been good to me so far

My Maseratti does one-eighty-five
I lost my license, now I dont drive
I have a limo, ride in the back
I lock the doors in case I'm attacked

Did Joe just mention Maserattis? Perhaps he's been talking to Ted Nugent?


...
You know what I been talkin' about honey
It's a nice dance, we gotta a nice dance goin' here
Now what you gotta do, I'll tell you what you gotta do
You got to pretend your face is a Maserati
It's a Maserati
It's a Maserati
It's a gettin' hotty
It's a Maserati, Maserati, Maserati
It's a fast one too man, that thing's turbocharged
You feel like a little fuel injection honey?
...
- Ted Nugent, "Wango Tango"

All class, that Ted.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Loki
Did Joe just mention Maserattis? Perhaps he's been talking to Ted Nugent?

All class, that Ted.

You gotta respect a man that eats God's creatures with enthusiasm. :)

Italian cars are OK (like i've ever driven one!), but as you might guess from my avatar, I like German models:

Originally posted by Janis (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/janisjoplin/mercedesbenz.html)
Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a color TV ?
Dialing For Dollars is trying to find me.
I wait for delivery each day until three,
So oh Lord, won’t you buy me a color TV ?

Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a night on the town ?
I’m counting on you, Lord, please don’t let me down.
Prove that you love me and buy the next round,
Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a night on the town ?

Everybody!
Oh Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends,
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So oh Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

That’s it!

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Iacchus
That everything is relative to the absolute which, is existence (or reality) itself.


So you have no answer, I am disappoinyed Iachuss.

How is existance absolute? (Dodge that one as well.) Does cat equal dog? Does a bee's vision of a flower equal mine.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Dancing David

So you have no answer, I am disappoinyed Iachuss.

How is existance absolute? (Dodge that one as well.) Does cat equal dog? Does a bee's vision of a flower equal mine. Can you escape from the fact that you exist? ... not without destroying yourself (or mind) that is. If you can't then reality must be absolute.

Certainly you can't escape while you're alive and aware in the moment that is. ;)

[uruk]

Can you escape from the fact that you exist? ... without destroying yourself (or your mind) that is. If you can't then reality must be absolute.

Well if you believe Lifegazer we don't really exist. we only exist as illusions in the god mind. What I think of as "me" is not really me but the god mind. and of course that reality does not exist.
You can say absolutely that I think I exist, but not I exist absolutely.

Also if you believe in an afterlife then this reality is not absolute either but a realm created by god.

If you believe in what science says this existance is not absolute either but a derived continum of energy and matter which, according to entropy, will eventually achieve a disordered state.

So it seems the only absolute is there is no absolutes...but that could be wrong too.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by uruk

So it seems the only absolute is there is no absolutes...but that could be wrong too. I couldn't agree with you less. But that's only because I mean it in the absolute sense.

[uruk]

I couldn't agree with you less. But that's only because I mean it in the absolute sense.
Then we can absolutely agree to disagree.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by uruk

Then we can absolutely agree to disagree. Absolutely!

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Can you escape from the fact that you exist? ... not without destroying yourself (or mind) that is. If you can't then reality must be absolute.

Certainly you can't escape while you're alive and aware in the moment that is. ;)

Another nice dodge Iachuss, but the existance of perception does not equate absolute.

I am not sure you know what the word means.

For one I am a materialist so I already concede that material reality exists (or appears to exist), however what does not exist is me. There is a body, there are thoughts, there are feelings, there are sensations there are habits. But there is no me in any of them.

If you take a person's memory away then they have lost thier identity, there is no 'storage unit' of the 'soul' that holds thier identity. It is a fiction, an illusion of continuity placed upon a series of individual events.

They are all relative positions held by transitory particles of energy. They have no conception, they have cohesion, but no identitity.

I agree that there are sensation, but they are not absolute, they are relative and impermanent.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Dancing David

Another nice dodge Iachuss, but the existance of perception does not equate absolute. Oh, really? And what exactly tells you this? Your perception? By the way, did you know that eveything is absolute in the sense that it exists exactly the way it is? Reality is absolute man.

[brian0918]

Even this monkey and this dog know you're full of garbage:

http://www.macalester.edu/~fines/monkey-with-dog.jpg


That's all the proof I need.

[brian0918]

"It has become clear to me that Iacchus is unable to participate in rational debate."
-- Horace the Wombat

http://www.whitehouse-design.edu.au/images/galsyd/wombat.jpg


'Nuff said.

[brian0918]

Every okapi in the Congo agrees that Iacchus is a moron. What more evidence do we need?!?!


http://www.hedweb.com/animimag/okapi.jpg

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Oh, really? And what exactly tells you this? Your perception? By the way, did you know that eveything is absolute in the sense that it exists exactly the way it is? Reality is absolute man.

By the way, did you know that if Iacchus types a sentence that starts with or uses within "By the way", "Did you know", "If", or an italicised word, it is most likely a claim he's adamant is true, yet totally unwilling to discuss apart from the other party simply agreeing with him?

What could that mean?

[Navigator]

Reality is absolute man.

Reality is absolute as in it is different depending on the subjective understanding of 'what is reality'.
What is absolutely real to one is not necessarily absolutely real to another.
Even God concepts differ remarkably depending upon personal preference (subjective reality).

What is reality here (http://www.princeton.edu/~ppn/images/earth.jpg)

is in one way objective (to any intelligent awareness which may be viewing it) and in another way subjective (to the intelligent awareness directly involved within it's reality.

Objectively, all the seasons, night and day, different moments of personal (subjective) reality are happening at the same moment, simultaneously - that is objective truth.

Subjective reality within this reality might insist upon having different times, days of the week, years - annual celebrations, but all of these things are subjective reality which are not reality in terms of the objective reality.

Some insist that in reality - it is winter, and others at the very same moment will insist that it is summer.

Objective reality shows the truth of the matter, that it is ALL of these things...indeed it IS winter and it IS summer (etc)
but not so with 'what time, day or year it is.'

Such things as 'o'clock' 'hour' 'day' 'week' month' 'year' are subjective, and only are seen as objective in relation to those who are sharing the individual subjective realities as a collective, and agree to have these measurements as a recognised part of 'truth' in their collective objective reality.

Viewing objectively from without, there would be (what?) sense or 'truth' in the need for knowing 'day' 'month' 'year' etc...?

Absolute reality may be found within personal subjective reality, and then discarded within shared subjective reality (agreed upon by the participants) and thus, this shared reality becomes the Absolute reality, which in turn would also needed to be discarded as shared reality views itself from without (as the pic link shows) -

The common thread of the whole 'viewing of reality' has to do with intelligent awareness.

It is not impossible for intelligent awareness within an individual to move from personal subjective reality to collective subjective reality...but it is difficult.

Same applies to collective subjective reality (which tends to see itself as being 'objective') - It is not impossible for intelligent awareness to move from collective subjective reality to universal objective reality...but it is difficult.

There are as many possible individual subjective realities as there are collective subjective realities....numbers don't count... (pun intended) the absolute reality is different from "reality is absolute"

The absolute reality is that intelligent awareness exists in the physical Universe.

Another absolute reality is that this Universe cannot be FULLY understood through individual OR collective subjectivity - through instruments of physical form.

However, the Absolute Reality of this universe can be seen as absolutely REAL...through individual form

The reality of what is happening here (http://members.aol.com/imdaria6/andromeda_moo.jpg)

may well be different for any intelligent awareness experiencing subjectively (collectively and individually) within it, than from say here (http://www.c-science.com/txt/images/1999/991207unos.jpg)

so the only absolutely objective reality (regarding this universal reality) must be if Intelligent Awareness could overview the entire Universe without actually experiencing any part of the whole subjectively...totally objective.

The only certainty I can see is that the common denominator of personal subjective/ collective subjective realities, is Intelligent Awareness. itself.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Oh, really? And what exactly tells you this? Your perception? By the way, did you know that eveything is absolute in the sense that it exists exactly the way it is? Reality is absolute man.

Just a couple thoughts on the idea that reality is absolute:

1. The immaterialists sure don't think so.
2. On the microcosmic scale it is not absolute: Heisenberg Indeterminancy Principle.
3. There are no cultural absolutes to be found, each culture is a mish mash.

If an electron is a piece of energy that has the potential to exist in an area of space bounded by the speed of light and the HIP then can you say that an electron,
a. exists but is indeterminant in position and velocity vector
b. exists in some abstract sense with no physical referent.

I also refer you to this cool stuff call Bose-Einstien Condensate, when you coll down atomic matter it suddenly becomes one, in the sense that the atomic waveforms combine and can't be told apart. So where did that absolute matter go?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Navigator

Reality is absolute as in it is different depending on the subjective understanding of 'what is reality'.
What is absolutely real to one is not necessarily absolutely real to another.
Even God concepts differ remarkably depending upon personal preference (subjective reality).So what? That's like saying there's a difference between apples and oranges which, in fact there is. However, that doesn't deny that either exists in the absolute sense. In fact that's all subjectivity is, different variations (of the parts related to the whole) of the absolute reality which really does exist.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Dancing David

Just a couple thoughts on the idea that reality is absolute:

1. The immaterialists sure don't think so.
2. On the microcosmic scale it is not absolute: Heisenberg Indeterminancy Principle.
3. There are no cultural absolutes to be found, each culture is a mish mash.

If an electron is a piece of energy that has the potential to exist in an area of space bounded by the speed of light and the HIP then can you say that an electron,
a. exists but is indeterminant in position and velocity vector
b. exists in some abstract sense with no physical referent.

I also refer you to this cool stuff call Bose-Einstien Condensate, when you coll down atomic matter it suddenly becomes one, in the sense that the atomic waveforms combine and can't be told apart. So where did that absolute matter go? However, can you still imagine yourself not being here, while doing what you do in front of your computer? Which is impossible, unless you're not conscious or dead.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by brian0918

"It has become clear to me that Iacchus is unable to participate in rational debate."
-- Horace the Wombat

http://www.whitehouse-design.edu.au/images/galsyd/wombat.jpg


'Nuff said. But seriously (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43260), all I can say is you must have by-passed the original post. ;)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Piscivore

What could that mean? That everybody has their own agenda?

[Navigator]

So what?

So what if you're a Maori? So what if you're a Jew?
So what if you are European? Or come from Timbuktu

So what if you're black - So what if you're white - or yellow or red I don't mind even if you're small and grey...
....With huge eyes in you're over-large head
So what?

http://www.daryljoyce.co.uk/portfolio/images/grey.jpg

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Navigator

So what?

So what if you're a Maori? So what if you're a Jew?
So what if you are European? Or come from Timbuktu

So what if you're black - So what if you're white - or yellow or red I don't mind even if you're small and grey...
....With huge eyes in you're over-large head
So what?Looks rather humanoid if you ask me. ;)

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Iacchus
However, can you still imagine yourself not being here, while doing what you do in front of your computer? Which is impossible, unless you're not conscious or dead.

Can you imagine that all your preconcieved notions might be false.

It is not absolute that I am in front of the computer, my waveform does occasionaly exist in other frames of reference.

You are dodging again.

Where is the absolute Iachuss?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Dancing David

Can you imagine that all your preconcieved notions might be false.

It is not absolute that I am in front of the computer, my waveform does occasionaly exist in other frames of reference.

You are dodging again.

Where is the absolute Iachuss? Even in our variance we are absolute. Why? Because reality is inclusive of all there is, right or wrong.

[Z]

Because reality is inclusive of all there is, right or wrong.

Exactly. And since reality is inclusive of all there is, all that can be must be real. That which is real can be detected, either directly through the senses, or inderectly through its interactions with known real objects/energies. Anything which does not meet these criteria are unreal, and therefore non-existent. This includes angels, faeries, God, demons, and honest politicians.

[Navigator]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Looks rather humanoid if you ask me. ;)

Yes.
Which explains why they made Adam in their 'image' (humaniod)

;) <backatcha

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon

Exactly. And since reality is inclusive of all there is, all that can be must be real. That which is real can be detected, either directly through the senses, or inderectly through its interactions with known real objects/energies. Anything which does not meet these criteria are unreal, and therefore non-existent. This includes angels, faeries, God, demons, and honest politicians. However, there must be a gezillion things which Science has yet to detect.

[Z]

Just as I'm sure there are a 'gezillion' things you or I have never seen - but they are real, and CAN be detected, sensed, etc.

Science is not 'Omniscience'... but we are aware enough of our world to know with a reasonable amount of certainty that faeries, unicorns, dragons, and the like are unreal, there being no place left for such critters to hide. As for God - I'd be thrilled if 'Science' discovered God; however, I honestly think that, since God affects the world by causing the merely improbable to happen, I don't think science will ever 'detect God'. God is Unreal; God cannot be detected. The upside of which - is God isn't out to get sinners; God could care less if you commit adultery or incest or covetious behavior. God can't touch you, not the way you think. Omniscient and impotent... that's the God of today.

Science didn't know the world wasn't flat when it started out - does that mean the world was flat until we discovered otherwise?

Nonsense.

There are things Science cannot detect yet, I'm sure - yet that doesn't mean that unreal things will suddenly start popping up. Only that the very distant, very hard-to-reach, and very small have yet to be examined closely.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon

Science is not 'Omniscience'... but we are aware enough of our world to know with a reasonable amount of certainty that faeries, unicorns, dragons, and the like are unreal, there being no place left for such critters to hide. As for God - I'd be thrilled if 'Science' discovered God; however, I honestly think that, since God affects the world by causing the merely improbable to happen, I don't think science will ever 'detect God'. God is Unreal; God cannot be detected. The upside of which - is God isn't out to get sinners; God could care less if you commit adultery or incest or covetious behavior. God can't touch you, not the way you think. Omniscient and impotent... that's the God of today.Rubbish!

And yes, you really do need to stop speaking out of both sides of your mouth here.