Jeb Bush Stumped By Math Question

[Brown]

Here's one from the "Unusual Stories" file, from WCCO-TV and the AP (http://wcco.com/water/watercooler_story_197135312.html):Florida school officials hit the books after Gov. Jeb Bush was stumped by a math problem that reportedly was on the state's standardized test for high school students.
...
A teenager asked the governor a question about triangles that she said was taken from the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test, which Bush has championed.
...
Bush took the question from 18-year-old Luana Marques, who asked, "What are the angles on a three-four-five triangle?" The numbers refer to the proportions of the sides of such triangles.

Bush, hemming a bit, answered "125, 90, and whatever remains on 180." Now, this question was not really on the test, and I would not expect an average person to know this. (The report says "The correct answer was 90 degrees, 53.1 degrees and 36.9 degrees." Actually, the correct answers are 90 degrees, arcsin(4/5) degrees and arcsin(3/5) degrees.) I can't fault the governor for not knowing this. And he did get one of the angles correct! Not many people are aware that a 3-4-5 triangle is a right triangle, having one ninety degree angle.

In addition, the governor seemed to be aware that a triangle's angles should add to 180 degrees, which is also correct. Good for him!

But what does surprise me is the "125, 90, and whatever remains on 180." Hey, guv, 125 plus 90 is 215, which is greater than 180. "Whatever remains" would be an angle of negative 35 degrees. Talk about fuzzy math.

Thus, I can't fault the governor for not knowing his trig or his geometery... but for goodness' sake, he ought to have a grasp on basic addition. You might not use trig or geometry when working out a state budget, but by golly, you really ought to have a pretty good command of addition.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Brown

Thus, I can't fault the governor for not knowing his trig or his geometery... but for goodness' sake, he ought to have a grasp on basic addition. You might not use trig or geometry when working out a state budget, but by golly, you really ought to have a pretty good command of addition.

Obviously he's using Cthuluian mathematics. Maybe some of the conspiracy-theory stories about Skull and Bones were correct...

[renata]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Obviously he's using Cthuluian mathematics. Maybe some of the conspiracy-theory stories about Skull and Bones were correct...

George Bush belonged to Skull and Bones, a society at Yale University. Jeb Bush, his brother and the subject of the article, attended University of Texas.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by renata


George Bush belonged to Skull and Bones, a society at Yale University. Jeb Bush, his brother and the subject of the article, attended University of Texas.

So they want you to think...

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Brown
Here's one from the "Unusual Stories" file, from WCCO-TV and the AP (http://wcco.com/water/watercooler_story_197135312.html):Now, this question was not really on the test, and I would not expect an average person to know this. (The report says "The correct answer was 90 degrees, 53.1 degrees and 36.9 degrees." Actually, the correct answers are 90 degrees, arcsin(4/5) degrees and arcsin(3/5) degrees.) I can't fault the governor for not knowing this. And he did get one of the angles correct! Not many people are aware that a 3-4-5 triangle is a right triangle, having one ninety degree angle.

In addition, the governor seemed to be aware that a triangle's angles should add to 180 degrees, which is also correct. Good for him!

But what does surprise me is the "125, 90, and whatever remains on 180." Hey, guv, 125 plus 90 is 215, which is greater than 180. "Whatever remains" would be an angle of negative 35 degrees. Talk about fuzzy math.

Thus, I can't fault the governor for not knowing his trig or his geometery... but for goodness' sake, he ought to have a grasp on basic addition. You might not use trig or geometry when working out a state budget, but by golly, you really ought to have a pretty good command of addition.

I think the richest part is that the student gave a wrong answer. (The student said 30-60-90) AND the initial news report (revised version here (http://www.wftv.com/education/3498203/detail.html)) didn't correct the student for about a day. It seems to me to be pretty pathetic to (1) bring a question that wasn't on the test and then (2) get it wrong anyway.

"Me and a couple of my friends ... we know that the FCAT is a very important part of schooling in Florida and we were wondering if you could answer one of the questions we remember from the FCAT?" said Luana Marques, 18, who just graduated from Freedom High School in Orange County and is heading to Flagler College in the fall.

The luncheon crowd at an Orlando hotel, gathered to honor 200 students who take part in the Teen Trendsetters Reading Mentor program, laughed and Marques posed the question: "What are the angles on a three-four-five-triangle?"

The governor gave a steely grin and then stalled a bit. "The angles would be ... If I was going to guess ... Three-four-five. Three-four-five. I don't know, 125, 90 and whatever remains on 180?"

Marques had an answer, although it wasn't the right one: "It's 30-60-90."

It seems likely that in the actual test the test-takers would have scratch paper. I don't think it's unreasonable for a high-school senior with scratch paper to get pretty close numerically if they have a ruler, or get the exact analytical answer. On paper.

That having been said, of course Bush should have known better than to think he could add 125+90 and get less than 180.

Do you think it's a coincidence that 125 is only about 2 degrees away from the actual exterior angle of the triangle? Not sure my terminology is right, I mean 180-125=55~=53.1

[DangerousBeliefs]

Well, I can draw it...

And I know one angle is 90

And I know 3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2

I can't remember how to get the other two angles.

But then, I got a better education (Iowa - currently 8th) then Florida provides (currently 40th).

[Corwyn]

I am sorry but I have to chime in here just to make a correction.

ANY ONE and I MEAN ANY one who has walked into home depot
and attempted to;

build a deck,
replace a door
put in a screen door,
put a swingset together,
replace a window,
build a patio,
put in a flower garden
and about a dozen normal home improvement projects those of us in the middleclass, these phony rich spoiled snots ( on both sides) pretend to know all about, have to do on our own now to save money know that 3,4,5 is the very basics to finding out if our projects are square.
Not to metion a million other daily jobs where you might want to know if things are square.

So EVEN if you don't remember your trig or geometry and you have no clue what an arcsin is. IF you've ACTUALLY worked for a living you would instantly know that 3, 4, 5, gives a right angle triangle.

Perhaps this is great example why it is that therepublicans believe that a tax raise is a tax cut.

And of course the midle class is the one who gets the leftovers.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Corwyn
IF you've ACTUALLY worked for a living you would instantly know that 3, 4, 5, gives a right angle triangle.

I guess one doesn't have to be rich to be an elitist.

[RCNelson]

Brown:
But what does surprise me is the "125, 90, and whatever remains on 180." Hey, guv, 125 plus 90 is 215, which is greater than 180. "Whatever remains" would be an angle of negative 35 degrees. Talk about fuzzy math. He was using Republican math in which you simply borrow to make up the negative 35 degrees.

[Corwyn]

I guess one doesn't have to be rich to be an elitist.
____________________________________________

Elitist
Noun :meaning someone who believes in rule by an elite group.


WTF - I guess I need a new understanding of elitist.
Taking pride in ones knowledge and ability as opposed to being a spoil rich moron whose ivy league eductions is proven to be a total waist ( since they're incapable of doing simple sums in their head) is now elitist.

Well you learn something everyday.

Maybe that was a tax CUT after all!

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Corwyn
I guess one doesn't have to be rich to be an elitist.
____________________________________________

Elitist
Noun :meaning someone who believes in rule by an elite group.


WTF - I guess I need a new understanding of elitist.
Taking pride in ones knowledge and ability as opposed to being a spoil rich moron whose ivy league eductions is proven to be a total waist ( since they're incapable of doing simple sums in their head) is now elitist.

Well you learn something everyday.

Maybe that was a tax CUT after all!

Or perhaps he had no use for 3,4,5 triangles -- like me -- and thus completely lost that knowledge? I guess that means I never worked for a living, right?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Corwyn
I am sorry but I have to chime in here just to make a correction.

Whose statement are you correcting?


Originally posted by Corwyn
So EVEN if you don't remember your trig or geometry and you have no clue what an arcsin is. IF you've ACTUALLY worked for a living you would instantly know that 3, 4, 5, gives a right angle triangle.

When I framed houses, my boss tried to convince me that if 3,4,5 would work (which he, of course, knew by heart) then 3+2, 4+2, 5+2 would work.

It was very difficult not to laugh at him. He was very angry that the foundation man had poured a foundation so far out of square. Until I told him he was wrong, and said that if he wanted a 'bigger' square, he could measure 3*2, 4*2, 5*2.

He also couldn't build stair risers...


Also, let me concur with Grammatron - lots of people who ACTUALLY 'work for a living' have no use for 3,4,5 right triangles.

MattJ

[Hutch]

Now let it be said up front that I am no fan of "Jeb" and rather hope that the Dems win Florida out from under him in Nov 04.

However, getting hit with such a question is likely to disconcert ANYONE..I mean, go up to 100 people in the street anywhere in the US (up to and including college campuses) and if you get more than 3-4 right answers you will be near the Math and Science buildings.

He got that it was a right triangle, the 90 degree angle and the 180 total. Heck, I would have probably given them the 30-60-90 or 45-45-90 answer, although I might have referenced Pythagorus (sic). Not bad for someone (like most of us 40-50 somethings) who probably haven't cracked a math book in years.

As for the 125, 90, rest of 180 gaffe, YOU stand up in public and get hit with an unexpected question not in your field of expertise. If you took a Nobel Prize winning scientist and in the middle of a physics symposium asked him who was the winning general at the Battle of Gettysburg, it's just possible he'd stumble too.

That said, Jeb Bush is a )*(^%$%$^ scumbag and I hope he gets booted out as quicky as his brother does. But not on this.

[KelvinG]

I have no love for Jeb Bush at all, but I can say without a doubt that there is no way that I would have been able to answer any of the problems posed.
But, I work in an artsy field and didn't take trig or geometry in school.

[Batman Jr.]

It must be said that the test is obviously not working if the students get their 1 - 3^(1/2) - 2 triangle angles mixed up with their 3 - 4 - 5 angles, which aren't even inculcated into students for quick recall on account of them being irrational numbers. People rely too much on these so called "diagnostics," expecting them to make up for other deficiencies in the educational system. They often, by diverting attention in the classroom from more important things to the minutiae of test taking, do just the opposite.

[Cain]

Saying one of the angles is 125, another is 90, and the last is whatever you have left remaining from 180 is a dumb slip-up. Just 'cuz Jeb don't got no maff skills it ain't no excoose to start hatin'.

The math section of the GRE is filled with stupid geometry questions based on the same idea... but I don't recall it ever asking for angles . Only the relative proportions of the sides have ever been emphasized in my academic career.

You have a right triangle: AB measures six units; AC measures eight units. What is the length of the hypotenuse, BC?

Jeb did manage an incredible score of 96% on the Swetzer-Mayer douchenozzle exam!


_____________________________

Although, I've gotta say...

Currently I'm plodding through _The Working Poor_ by David Shippler. In one depressing anecdote a teacher and her class (which had relatively high test scores) cannot figure out the following question:

"Slippery Jake bought a pony for $50. After a week, he sold it for $60. Two weeks later, he bought it back for $70. A week later he sold it for $80. How much money did he make or lose?"

-50, +60, -70, and +80

One girl goes to the projector with a solution. "On the transparency next to the 60 she wrote, 'made 10'; next to the 70, "lost 10"; and next to the 80, "made 10'. This had enough deceptive logic to stump the class and [the teacher] as well. How could you get two different answers? [The teacher] couldn't find another way of looking at it.... Nobody could unravel the confusion. More disturbing was how quickly they stopped trying. Neither the students nor the teacher of the class on problem-solving seemed devoted to solving the problem. They dropped it and went on to something else. "

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Raise your hands if you have never had a dumb moment.


As a teacher over the years I have had some in front of my students. We worked through things together, solved problems. I have spelled things incorrectly, written wrong dates on boards (usually wrong year), and stuttered a couple times.


What is wrong with the pupil surpassing the teacher at times?

I think it presents a good opportunity for problem solving. Challenging your teacher is a good thing. Authority figures do not have absolute knowledge, and they certainly are not infallible. Thank goodness for intelligent students that can apply their knowledge I say.


edited to add...


Why would Jeb be expected to excel on the current diagnostic test (or on questions similiar to those on the test)? Hasn't he already earned his education? Does he have an engineering degree, a doctorate of some type?

Jeb's admin has a dept of education I assume.

In my Jurisdiction math teachers develop Standardised tests in cooperation with gov't officials, but the Premier (equiv to Governor) is not expected to have direct input into the develoment of it, nor to take the test and pass it.

[Chad Noles]

I think Jeb SHOULD have replied....."One angle is 90 degrees,and the other two add up to 90 degrees."
That would have shown his ability to "think on his feet",if he had that ability.:p

[hgc]

I also wouldn't have been able to answer that one off the top of my head. It's been a long time since Trig. And I know that nothing that hard is on any state's minimum competency exam.

I am a big Bush detractor, but I am just glad to know that Jeb knew that the angle total is 180° and that one of them is 90°. There is no way that his big brother would have known it. That's another reason I'm glad that Jeb isn't president. He's probably smart enough to get reelected.

[Brown]

Some politicians are very fond of calling publicly for testing of students to make sure that they have a reasonable level of education, and testing teachers to make sure they are competent.

It would therefore be, in my judgment, fair game to ask politicians to take an exam to gauge their fitness for office.

It would also be fair game to ask these same politicians to answer basic questions from the exams that young students have to take.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Corwyn

So EVEN if you don't remember your trig or geometry and you have no clue what an arcsin is. IF you've ACTUALLY worked for a living you would instantly know that 3, 4, 5, gives a right angle triangle.

In my rather short life thus far I've built two decks, one vegetable garden, cut and installed 4 interior doors, rebricked a portion of a basement wall, installed a new screen door (after re-squaring the jamb), and helped a friend build a complete bedroom extension on his house. While being aware of the 3-4-5 = right triangle trivia, I've never once employed it.

Of course, I never did any of that stuff for a living, so I suppose technically you can still claim to be correct.

[LostAngeles]

No job I've ever worked in has required me to know 3-4-5 triangles. But I know them.

I've also never been required to know that when you have a right triangle, the other two angles will always be less than 90 degrees, but I know it and could infer it from the knowledge that a triangle always ads up to 180 degrees.

Then again, I've had some damn good math teachers.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
In my rather short life thus far I've built two decks, one vegetable garden, cut and installed 4 interior doors, rebricked a portion of a basement wall, installed a new screen door (after re-squaring the jamb), and helped a friend build a complete bedroom extension on his house. While being aware of the 3-4-5 = right triangle trivia, I've never once employed it.


I think it's mostly useful for folks who are trying to square up something that's 1) too big to check with a carpenter's square, and 2) also not a perfect rectangle.

As a framer, the majority of the time I would use it would be when checking a foundation for squareness, and making an exterior wall square before adding sheathing or braces to it. (very occassionally - most walls are rectangles)


Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Of course, I never did any of that stuff for a living, so I suppose technically you can still claim to be correct.

I think you grant him too much.

MattJ

[Cain]

Originally posted by Brown
Some politicians are very fond of calling publicly for testing of students to make sure that they have a reasonable level of education, and testing teachers to make sure they are competent.

It would therefore be, in my judgment, fair game to ask politicians to take an exam to gauge their fitness for office.

Hey, aren't Republicans crazy for standardized tests? Perhaps we could make a quiz for incoming presidents. I think that if you cannot correctly name (oh, say) the Prime Minister of India, the world's largest democracy, then maybe you're not qualified to be "leader of the free world." But then Republicans also like having dumb figureheads for president .

[Brown]

Originally posted by Cain
Hey, aren't Republicans crazy for standardized tests? Perhaps we could make a quiz for incoming presidents. I think that if you cannot correctly name (oh, say) the Prime Minister of India, the world's largest democracy, then maybe you're not qualified to be "leader of the free world." The current Republican party line seems to be that testing students and teachers is a great way to assess progress and ability, and there are some Democrats who feel that way, too.

But I think it would be a great idea for all politicians who declare that others should submit to basic tests of competence should be willing to submit to tests themselves. They certainly should have no trouble at all with the basic skills tests that they think are so great for grade schoolers.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by Corwyn
Taking pride in ones knowledge and ability as opposed to being a spoil rich moron whose ivy league eductions is proven to be a total waist ( since they're incapable of doing simple sums in their head) is now elitist.
There's a difference between "pride" and "condescension". There's also a difference between "waist" and "waste".

And I don't see why this knoweledge is needed for verifying rightness. If line AB intersects line CD at point E, it suffices to check whether angle AEC is equal to angle CEB. The right angle is the only one equal to its supplement.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


In my rather short life thus far I've built two decks, one vegetable garden, cut and installed 4 interior doors, rebricked a portion of a basement wall, installed a new screen door (after re-squaring the jamb), and helped a friend build a complete bedroom extension on his house. While being aware of the 3-4-5 = right triangle trivia, I've never once employed it.

Of course, I never did any of that stuff for a living, so I suppose technically you can still claim to be correct.
I do do that for a living, and 3-4-5 is a very reliable and fast way to square a room or deck.

Of course, for larger rooms or decks 6-8-10 is better.

[Art Vandelay]

Or you could use meters.