New Zealand Cuts Diplomatic Ties with Israel

[Mr Manifesto]

NZ jails Israeli 'spies' (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1154920.htm)

New Zealand has suspended some diplomatic ties with Israel after two Israeli men were jailed for passport fraud.

New Zealand Prime Minister Helen Clark says she wants an explanation and apology.

She also says there are strong reasons to believe the men were acting on behalf of Israel's intelligence services.

Uriel Zoshe Kelman and Eli Cara last month pleaded guilty to charges which included attempting to obtain a New Zealand passport and participating in an organised crime group to obtain a false passport.

They were caught in a police sting after a tip-off from a suspicious Customs officer.

:roll: :roll: :roll: Caught out by a Kiwi Customs officer. Move over, James Bond!

I hate to have to add this, but I can hear Skeptic lunging for his keyboard already: This isn't an anti-Israeli thread, I would have said the same for any country that allowed its spies to get caught in an idiotic manner by a friendly country. Why jeopordise diplomatic ties by doing something stupid like this?

Maybe New Zealand is a silent partner in the Axis of Evil. They've been attacked by the French before, y'know...

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
NZ jails Israeli 'spies' (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1154920.htm)



:roll: :roll: :roll: Caught out by a Kiwi Customs officer. Move over, James Bond!

I hate to have to add this, but I can hear Skeptic lunging for his keyboard already: This isn't an anti-Israeli thread, I would have said the same for any country that allowed its spies to get caught in an idiotic manner by a friendly country. Why jeopordise diplomatic ties by doing something stupid like this?

Maybe New Zealand is a silent partner in the Axis of Evil. They've been attacked by the French before, y'know...

Talk about an over reaction.

[Tmy]

THe PM of New Zeland later stated that the spies were after his ring of power. "MY PRECIOUS, MY PRECIOUS!!".

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Talk about an over reaction.

If an ASIO agent was caught in Washington trying to forge an American passport without consulting the US authorities in any way, shape, or form, what would be an acceptable reaction to you? http://skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/images/smiles/icon_somewhat_confused.gif

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


If an ASIO agent was caught in Washington trying to forge an American passport without consulting the US authorities in any way, shape, or form, what would be an acceptable reaction to you? http://skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/images/smiles/icon_somewhat_confused.gif

Aside from invading them?:)

I don't know, but cutting diplomatic ties all together seems rather childish. I imagine these situations happen quite a bit in the world and somehow they don't end up on the front page.

[banquetbear]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Aside from invading them?:)

I don't know, but cutting diplomatic ties all together seems rather childish. I imagine these situations happen quite a bit in the world and somehow they don't end up on the front page.

...the suspected agents were arrested months ago. "If" these situations happened all the time, I would suspect that the Israeli government would have contacted the New Zealand government when they were arrested-and arranged to broker a deal at the time. That didn't happen. Last time we arrested foreign agents they were in the country blowing up boats and murdering innocent people-which then resulted in an absurd load of sanctions on our country which were only ended when we gave said terrorists back to their country-suffice to say, we are just a little bit TOUCHY on the issue of foreign agents working in our country ;) ...

[Zep]

Originally posted by Tmy
THe PM of New Zeland later stated that the spies were after his ring of power. "MY PRECIOUS, MY PRECIOUS!!".

HER. Her ring of power. Helen Clark is the PM of the shakey isles.

http://www.primeminister.govt.nz/

[Mr Manifesto]

What's the bet they were there to spy on the New Zealand Air Force?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
What's the bet they were there to spy on the New Zealand Air Force?
The big plane or the little one?

[Dorian Gray]

don't know, but cutting diplomatic ties all together seems rather childish. But then again, that's what happened when spies were caught in Civilization II.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by banquetbear


...the suspected agents were arrested months ago. "If" these situations happened all the time, I would suspect that the Israeli government would have contacted the New Zealand government when they were arrested-and arranged to broker a deal at the time. That didn't happen. Last time we arrested foreign agents they were in the country blowing up boats and murdering innocent people-which then resulted in an absurd load of sanctions on our country which were only ended when we gave said terrorists back to their country-suffice to say, we are just a little bit TOUCHY on the issue of foreign agents working in our country ;) ...
Which country was that, when was it and why did it result in sactions?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Kerberos

Which country was that, when was it and why did it result in sactions?

It was France, when it sank the Rainbow Warrior, a Greenpeace protest ship.

[banquetbear]

Originally posted by Kerberos

Which country was that, when was it and why did it result in sactions?

...France, 1985, and because they could...

http://www.kauricoast.co.nz/Feature.cfm?WPID=70

Sanctions

27.11.85. Just days after the sentences are handed down, the first calls come from within France for sanctions against New Zealand products if the two agents are not sent home.

30.1.86. Talks between the French and New Zealand Governments for compensation for the bombing reach a stalemate as the French Government presses for the return of the agents.

1.2.86. The masts from the Rainbow Warrior are erected at the Dargaville Maritime Museum.

21.2.86. France puts a partial ban on New Zealands $8.5 million lambs brains exports. Exporters, complain of difficulties in having their meat and vegetable products accepted in New Caledonia.

3.3.86. French retaliation escalates, a wide variety of products are now caught in the trade ban - fish, canned kiwifruit, urea and lamb.

1.4.86. Jaques Chirac, head of a right wing Gaullist party and a strong critic of New Zealand, becomes Prime Minister of France.

...yes, they snuck into our country-blew up a boat in our waters, killed a man, then applied trade sanctions on us until we released them their agents. What a shame the "War on Terror" wasn't around back then eh?

[The Fool]

Mossad was probably tipped off that they had sheep of mass destruction.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by banquetbear


...France, 1985, and because they could...

http://www.kauricoast.co.nz/Feature.cfm?WPID=70

...yes, they snuck into our country-blew up a boat in our waters, killed a man, then applied trade sanctions on us until we released them their agents.
Sounds like France.
What a shame the "War on Terror" wasn't around back then eh?
You've got it all wrong, It's only terrorism if it's done by Muslims.

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Aside from invading them?:)

I don't know, but cutting diplomatic ties all together seems rather childish. I imagine these situations happen quite a bit in the world and somehow they don't end up on the front page.

That's not what New Zealand in doing, though. From

From BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3896009.stm)
In a statement to the Auckland court trying the men, Ms Clark said she would suspend government visits to Israel, Israeli officials would need visas to enter New Zealand and foreign ministry contacts would be suspended.

Her government is also planning to refuse any request for Israel's President, Moshe Katsav, to visit next month when he is due in Australia and delay its approval for the appointment of a new Israeli ambassador to New Zealand.

So they're not "cutting diplomatic ties alltogether", but rather just curbing them for a while.

[Flo]

Originally posted by banquetbear


...France, 1985, and because they could...

France puts a partial ban on New Zealands $8.5 million lambs brains exports.

...yes, they snuck into our country-blew up a boat in our waters, killed a man, then applied trade sanctions on us until we released them their agents. What a shame the "War on Terror" wasn't around back then eh?


You've got it all wrong. All of this was in order to get a pretext for banning the import of sheep brains, so that our politicians would stop feeling outclassed ! :D

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Kerberos


[B]
You've got it all wrong, It's only terrorism if it's done by Muslims.

Since there are all kinds of terrorists all over the world with all kinds of different causes, who thinks this?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Mike B.


Since there are all kinds of terrorists all over the world with all kinds of different causes, who thinks this?

Tony. Skeptic.














(Ah, c'mon, Tony, I'm only funnin' ya! :D You're a tool, Skeptic.)

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by WildCat
The big plane or the little one? Funny...:D

Originally posted by The Fool
Mossad was probably tipped off that they had sheep of mass destruction.Funny too... :D

[demon]

NZ is a plucky but delusional little country if it thinks it can mess with a Major World Power.

Plucky and delusional?
My take on NZ`s antinuclear stance was that it was a diversion for the people while the country was privatized under their version of New Labour. The 'confirm or deny' policy on US ships visiting NZ was never applied to US planes, visiting the Christchurch US base before flying on wherever (Antartica, Pine Gap). Hell, NZ is one outpost of Echelon and has a satellite, missile, star navigation observatory.
I certainly don't believe NZ can mess with the powers that be and the vaguely social (not socialist) govt is coming under great pressure from the neocon right with the rise of Don Brash, who seems to be campaigning for govt by talkback radio from what I hear.
Hey, it must still be nice to wake up with a clear sky, relative peace, and continue the struggle and to take some heart that a small positive victory against Mossad can be claimed. At least, these two guys are now identified and it is making waves in major media world wide.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by Mike B.


Since there are all kinds of terrorists all over the world with all kinds of different causes, who thinks this?
The comment was firmly tongue in cheek, I haven't actually seen anybody exposing that particular viewpoint. I was simply making fun of anti-muslim sentiments, and the fact that some people have a tendency to regard any actions commited by westerners as honourable and legitimate, though I've mainly experienced this, when the targets weren't also westerners.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Grammatron
I don't know, but cutting diplomatic ties all together seems rather childish. I imagine these situations happen quite a bit in the world and somehow they don't end up on the front page.

The Israeli government has attempted to illegally obtain passports from a friendly foreign nation. What is the Israeli punishment for fraudsters obtaining passports illegally?

Those passports were presumably intended for use in obtaining illegal entry to other states which regard New Zealand passports as' neutral'. Why would Israel want to obtain illegal entry to other states? Presumably to carry out lawful acts in support of international law? Perhaps they want to give them to Israelis who marry Palestinians so that their spouses can enter Israel to live with their families?

This clearly demonstrates the hypocrisy of Sharon's government in its contempt both for international law and the laws of a friendly nation.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong The Israeli government has attempted to illegally obtain passports from a friendly foreign nation....This clearly demonstrates the hypocrisy of Sharon's government in its contempt both for international law and the laws of a friendly nation. Every intelligence service on earth uses passports and identities which do not belong to them. That's how the job gets done. It is the height of naïveté to be surprised at such an event or to feign outrage.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Every intelligence service on earth uses passports and identities which do not belong to them. That's how the job gets done. It is the height of naïveté to be surprised at such an event or to feign outrage.

Unless feigned outrage is part of the game -- which it is.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Rob Lister


Unless feigned outrage is part of the game -- which it is.

???

So, it's naive, apparently, to expect nations to respect the laws of other countries. Wow. Even if it is naive, does that mean that it's okay then? Maybe we should just say, "oh, well" and forget the whole thing?

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


???

So, it's naive, apparently, to expect nations to respect the laws of other countries. Wow. Even if it is naive, does that mean that it's okay then? Maybe we should just say, "oh, well" and forget the whole thing?

Maybe we should...er...what thing are we to forget? Yes, it is naive to expect nations to respect the laws of other nations, expecially when those other nations do not respect your laws in a like fashion. Intel is a game that most all nations play.

What, you don't think NZ employs spys?

Edit to add:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/new_zealand/

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/spy3.gif

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
What, you don't think NZ employs spys? Shhhh. Don't tell anyone about covert operations. All intelligence operatives around the world have a huge neon sign above their head that blinks SPY !. :D

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Rob Lister


Maybe we should...er...what thing are we to forget? Yes, it is naive to expect nations to respect the laws of other nations, expecially when those other nations do not respect your laws in a like fashion. Intel is a game that most all nations play.

What, you don't think NZ employs spys?

Edit to add:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/new_zealand/

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/spy3.gif

a) Tu quoque logical fallacy.
b) From your own link (http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/dpmc/publications/securingoursafety/sis.html) there is no indication that New Zealand gathers intellegence using illegal means.
c) Even if New Zealand did use illegal means, would they use them against a friendly country as per Israel? And, if so, see a)

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong


The Israeli government has attempted to illegally obtain passports from a friendly foreign nation. What is the Israeli punishment for fraudsters obtaining passports illegally?

As far as I read, there's no evidence that they are working for Israel. Perhaps NZ has some evidence they are not willing to disclose just yet or ever, but as of right now it doesn't apper to be the case. Yet you are taking it as gospel already.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Grammatron


As far as I read, there's no evidence that they are working for Israel. Perhaps NZ has some evidence they are not willing to disclose just yet or ever, but as of right now it doesn't apper to be the case. Yet you are taking it as gospel already.

the reason is that no reason or defense was given for the fraud. There was no reasonable excuse they could come up with. They are just going to do the time and not say a thing.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Every intelligence service on earth uses passports and identities which do not belong to them. That's how the job gets done. It is the height of naïveté to be surprised at such an event or to feign outrage.
There is nothing feigned here ZN. New Zealanders are outraged. Not that you give a **** eh?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


the reason is that no reason or defense was given for the fraud. There was no reasonable excuse they could come up with. They are just going to do the time and not say a thing.

Well we all know that criminals are always smart and full of reasonable "excuses." Therefor if they don't have one it must be they are foreign spies.

What if they just wanted to Immigrate to NZ so they can get away from their past? No that sounds WAY out there, they must be spies.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool

There is nothing feigned here ZN. New Zealanders are outraged. Not that you give a s**t eh?

I like the outrage part where some of New Zealanders desecrated Jewish graves.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
Every intelligence service on earth uses passports and identities which do not belong to them. That's how the job gets done. It is the height of naïveté to be surprised at such an event or to feign outrage.

Wrong once again. When you invent things about others with such certainty who is informing you? God? Or are you just psychic? Not a very sensible stance to take on a sceptics site perhaps?

I notice once agin that, rather than accept the simple fact that the Israeli government is engaged in illegal acts, you attempt to tar everyone else with the same brush. Unfortunately there is the simple matter of evidence for your claims. If you understand the need to support your claims with evidence can I sugest that you provide evidence from every intelligence service to support your latest claim. That is unless you are merely making things up.

The Israeli giovernment is engaged in illegal activities and flouts international law with impunity. You seem to find difficulty accepting that simple fact. Making things up in the way Mossad does, doesn't hide that fact.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong


Wrong once again. When you invent things about others with such certainty who is informing you? God? Or are you just psychic? Not a very sensible stance to take on a sceptics site perhaps?

I notice once agin that, rather than accept the simple fact that the Israeli government is engaged in illegal acts, you attempt to tar everyone else with the same brush. Unfortunately there is the simple matter of evidence for your claims. If you understand the need to support your claims with evidence can I sugest that you provide evidence from every intelligence service to support your latest claim. That is unless you are merely making things up.

The Israeli giovernment is engaged in illegal activities and flouts international law with impunity. You seem to find difficulty accepting that simple fact. Making things up in the way Mossad does, doesn't hide that fact.

You accuse zn of having no evidence, that may be true. However, where is the evidence for you conclusion?

[demon]

Hey, they were just going to NZ to get away from their pasts...obvious really.

[E.J.Armstrong]

[I]originally posted by grammatron[/]
As far as I read, there's no evidence that they are working for Israel. Perhaps NZ has some evidence they are not willing to disclose just yet or ever, but as of right now it doesn't apper to be the case. Yet you are taking it as gospel already.
I am taking the words of Israel at face value. I know that is a dodgy position to take because the world knows they will lie when it suits them but let me quote them to you from http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1154920.htm.

'Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom told public radio: "Israel has a long tradition of excellent relations with New Zealand."

"We will do everything necessary - together with the New Zealand government - to restore relations.

"Of course, we regret this response, but we think this decision is a decision that can be fixed."'

Perhaps I am missing something but I see no denial that Israel was involved in those words. I do see an expression of intent to try to rectify relations. THere were reports that 4 people were involved. It prompts the question 'How many Mossad agents does it take to fail to illegally obtain a false passport?'

The following comes from http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/452378.html
'Yahad MK Yossi Sarid is demanding that the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee investigate the Mossad's failed operation in New Zealand. Sarid said Saturday that the recent unsuccessful operation joins a series of failures by Israel's intelligence service over the past several years.'

It appears it is not just the NZ government which is convinced of the illegal activity of Sharon's men.

I notice that no-one has told us what Israel's punishment is for illegally trying to get a false passport.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Well we all know that criminals are always smart and full of reasonable "excuses." Therefor if they don't have one it must be they are foreign spies.

What if they just wanted to Immigrate to NZ so they can get away from their past? No that sounds WAY out there, they must be spies.

They weren't after a passport to live there, they were after a passport to use for travel. The government appears to believe they are spies, not just criminals.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by grammatron
You accuse zn of having no evidence, that may be true. However, where is the evidence for you conclusion?
I have already offered you the words of an Israel spokesman.What has zenith-nadir offered but his usual inventions? Are you saying you can't believe an Israeli government spokesman either?

So many lies. So much illegality.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Grammatron
I like the outrage part where some of New Zealanders desecrated Jewish graves.

And your point is what exactly? Like certain fundamentalists in New Zealand are you trying to imply that the New Zealand government had no right to take action against the illegality of the two Israeli men?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong

I am taking the words of Israel at face value. I know that is a dodgy position to take because the world knows they will lie when it suits them but let me quote them to you from http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1154920.htm.

'Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom told public radio: "Israel has a long tradition of excellent relations with New Zealand."

"We will do everything necessary - together with the New Zealand government - to restore relations.

"Of course, we regret this response, but we think this decision is a decision that can be fixed."'

Perhaps I am missing something but I see no denial that Israel was involved in those words. I do see an expression of intent to try to rectify relations. THere were reports that 4 people were involved. It prompts the question 'How many Mossad agents does it take to fail to illegally obtain a false passport?'

The following comes from http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/452378.html
'Yahad MK Yossi Sarid is demanding that the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee investigate the Mossad's failed operation in New Zealand. Sarid said Saturday that the recent unsuccessful operation joins a series of failures by Israel's intelligence service over the past several years.'

It appears it is not just the NZ government which is convinced of the illegal activity of Sharon's men.

I notice that no-one has told us what Israel's punishment is for illegally trying to get a false passport.

Your first link shows nothing much, wanting to fix relations is in no way admitting the guilt.

Your second link may have a point. However, it's dated today so I am curious how you reached your conclusion with out this information?

[a_unique_person]

Israel's response is pretty clear that they are Mossad. Ordinary criminals would have just been given a flat, 'do what you want with them' response.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Israel's response is pretty clear that they are Mossad. Ordinary criminals would have just been given a flat, 'do what you want with them' response.

It is my understanding, and perhaps Cleopatra can correct me on this, that Israel cares about each of its Citizens particularly if they are Jewish. So if they are charged with a crime there will be never be a "do what you want with them" response.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Grammatyron
Your first link shows nothing much, wanting to fix relations is in no way admitting the guilt.

Au contraire. Most normal people, when confronted with invalid accusations, take the opportunity to deny it.

The Israeli government deliberately chose not to say they didn't do it.

Can I ask why you believe they didn't say they didn't do it? Perhaps you have another reason.Your second link may have a point. However, it's dated today so I am curious how you reached your conclusion with out this information? See above.

I am curious as to why you don't apparently.

Are you claiming the members of the Knesset are wrong? Are you saying that Mossad are not spying on people around the world? Are you claiming that the men involved weren't Israeli agents engaged on illegal activities when even the Israeli government has not denied it?

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Grammatron
So if they are charged with a crime there will be never be a "do what you want with them" response.

Perhaps you have some justification for that impression?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong Wrong once again. When you invent things about others with such certainty who is informing you? God? Or are you just psychic? Not a very sensible stance to take on a sceptics site perhaps?

I notice once agin that, rather than accept the simple fact that the Israeli government is engaged in illegal acts, you attempt to tar everyone else with the same brush.....blah...blah...blah....blah... Every intelligence service on earth uses alternate IDs and alternate passports. To deny that reality exposes your vast ignorance on the subject. You are just too busy trolling with your childish accusations, baseless ad homs and your tired old "Israel is evil" tirade.

Have a nice day trolling E.J. :w2:

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Every intelligence service on earth uses alternate IDs and alternate passports. To deny that reality exposes your vast ignorance on the subject. You are just too busy trolling with your childish accusations, baseless ad homs and your tired old "Israel is evil" tirade.

Have a nice day trolling E.J. :w2:

I suppose you're right. There are agents from other countries busted every second day of the week obtaining false passports.








Not.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I suppose you're right. There are agents from other countries busted every second day of the week obtaining false passports.
Not. Yes, you are right a_u_p. You and E.J. know all there is to know about covert operations. In fact just the other day a CIA operative-friend was asking me, "Hey, I need to ask a_u_p and E.J. for some advice, everytime our agents go undercover into Iran or Pakistan or North Korea or Lybia they get fingered because of their A-M-E-R-I-C-A-N passports and their A-M-E-R-I-C-A-N IDs. Is their something we are doing wrong?"....

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Yes, you are right a_u_p. You and E.J. know all there is to know about covert operations. In fact just the other day a CIA operative-friend was asking me, "Hey, I need to ask a_u_p and E.J. for some advice, everytime our agents go undercover into Iran or Pakistan or North Korea or Lybia they get fingered because of their A-M-E-R-I-C-A-N passports and their A-M-E-R-I-C-A-N IDs. Is their something we are doing wrong?"....

Yeah, anyone who wants to go to NK quietly just goes there on a NZ passport.

As a person who is not a professional spy, all I know is that the amount of fuss this has caused in NZ is on a par with that which was caused when the French agents sank the Rainbow Warrior and caused the death of someone.

I leave it to the New Zealanders to display the appropriate sense of rage. It is clearly not something they are at all happy with.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Yeah, anyone who wants to go to NK quietly just goes there on a NZ passport.If they are U-N-D-E-R-C-O-V-E-R they just might einstein, or they could use a Chinese passport or a Japanese passport or even a South Korean passport.Originally posted by a_unique_person
As a person who is not a professional spy,'nuff said.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
I am taking the words of Israel at face value. I know that is a dodgy position to take because the world knows they will lie when it suits them but let me quote them to you from http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1154920.htm.

'Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom told public radio: "Israel has a long tradition of excellent relations with New Zealand."

"We will do everything necessary - together with the New Zealand government - to restore relations.

"Of course, we regret this response, but we think this decision is a decision that can be fixed."'

Perhaps I am missing something but I see no denial that Israel was involved in those words. I do see an expression of intent to try to rectify relations. THere were reports that 4 people were involved. It prompts the question 'How many Mossad agents does it take to fail to illegally obtain a false passport?'

The following comes from http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/452378.html
'Yahad MK Yossi Sarid is demanding that the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee investigate the Mossad's failed operation in New Zealand. Sarid said Saturday that the recent unsuccessful operation joins a series of failures by Israel's intelligence service over the past several years.'

It appears it is not just the NZ government which is convinced of the illegal activity of Sharon's men.

I notice that no-one has told us what Israel's punishment is for illegally trying to get a false passport.

Think of this as well, Grammy: What was the first thing the US did when the Boo-Yah Boys were caught with their little private prison in Iraq? Did they;

a) Say nothing at all
b) Issue a tame statement about 'this is regrettable but we'll try to fix relations with Afghanistan ASAP' without confirming or denying that they were working for the US government
c) Immediately and unequivocally deny that they were working with the US government.

Think abooooout iiiiit.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Every intelligence service on earth uses alternate IDs and alternate passports. To deny that reality exposes your vast ignorance on the subject. You are just too busy trolling with your childish accusations, baseless ad homs and your tired old "Israel is evil" tirade.

Have a nice day trolling E.J. :w2:

Sure they do. Do they obtain them illegally from friendly countries?
Eg, I'm sure Australia uses fake passports- maybe even ones from hostile countries that they've obtained illegally from those nations (you wouldn't expect Malaysia to say, "Sure, you can use one of our passports so you can see if we're planning to attack you"). Does Australia break American or Israeli laws obtaining passports from them?

If you can think of a country that does this sort of thing, a) provide evidence, b) tell me why this isn't a tu quoque logical fallacy.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originallty posted by zenith-nadir
Every intelligence service on earth uses alternate IDs and alternate passports. To deny that reality exposes your vast ignorance on the subject. You are just too busy trolling with your childish accusations, baseless ad homs and your tired old "Israel is evil" tirade.Quack alert.

It is interesting to watch zenith-nadir when simply asked to justify the truth of his claims. Does he justify them as most sensible people might? Why no. What does he do? Remarkably there appears to be a method here of sorts and it is very humourous to highlight it.

1/ He reasserts his claim without justtification.
This appears to be in the belief that those who shout loudly enough must be right.
2/ He declines to justify them.
Why should he? After all he seems to believe that everything zenith-nadir claims is intrinsically true.
3/ He starts calling people names or making false claims about them.
This is a very common technique with zenith-nadir. Sad but common.
4/ He makes up things that people never said.
This is a common tactic with people like him and Skeptic (no relation). Perhaps they think if they make it up and make the lie big enough more people will believe them.
5/ He starts to predict the future.
He seems to think that what he believes is the truth without, it appears, the necessity of reality intruding.
6/ He uses unmoderated claims with words such as all, every etc.
It seems that moderators such as, some, possibly, and maybe are alien to him on occasion.
7/ He makes yet more unsubstantiated claims. Possibly the key ingredient in a zenith-nadir post.

Does he use any of these tactics in his latest post. Let us have alquick look.

Straight out of the box he uses tactic number 1. No ifs, no buts. Facts are irrelevent to zenith-nadir. Then he goes into tactic number 2. Look no justification. He then charges straight into tactic number 3. He is nothing if not consistent in his contempt for the truth. No content with using tactics 1, 2 and 3, what does he do next? Why it is straight into tactic number 4. Here we have a mix of tactics with number 7 making its regular appearance.

Let us remember where this has all come from. he was asked to justify a claim he made. Surprising what a simple question can do to an idiot.

I am tired of asking zenith-nadir to justify his claims because history tells me he has great difficulty doing so or even apparently wanting to do so, as he has just demonstrated. At the risk of his venting yet more disreputable tactics on me let me challenge him one more time to see if he really is interested in the truth or not.

zenith-nadir - you have refused to support your last claims but let me try to get you to understand the necessity to back up your claims and stop running away from them.

Please support your claim that I have ever claimed that Israel is evil.

Are you going to carry on running away from your own claims?

Have a nice day trolling E.J. Tactic number 7 once again. You just cannot make this stuff up. Right out of the Jedi Knight school of 'debate'. Perhaps you and he are related?

I hope your school teacher never asks you a simple question if this is the way you behave.

Have a nice day.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
a) Tu quoque logical fallacy.
b) From your own link (http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/dpmc/publications/securingoursafety/sis.html) there is no indication that New Zealand gathers intellegence using illegal means.
c) Even if New Zealand did use illegal means, would they use them against a friendly country as per Israel? And, if so, see a)

You are a silly penguin, and I say that in a nice way.

a) 'you do it too!' fallacy: perhaps but perhaps not. My intent was not to refute your claim but to support my own; it is naive to think that all countries, including your country, do not engage in such practices.

b) Given that such an organization exists in your country is certainly strong evidence that they use means that are, while legal in the nation that is NZ, illegal in the target nation, whatever those nations and means may be. The organization does not exist without purpose. Sure, no NZ laws are being broken by NZ spies but that's beside the point, and part of the game.

c) I don't know? Would they? I think most certainly YES! Mostly because there are no friends, only interests. While NZ may, or may not employ spys or operatives in Israel, I bet they employ many 2000 klicks or so to the east. If Israel is in a position to make economic, political, or social policy that directly impacts NZ, then yes, I bet you do have some spys there.

[banquetbear]

Originally posted by Grammatron
I like the outrage part where some of New Zealanders desecrated Jewish graves.

...one, maybe two, possibly three, people desecrated those Jewish graves. There are stupid people everywhere-they are not representitive of our population.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Quack alert.Quack alert indeed... :D

[Taffer]

zenith-nadir, exactly how does that help the argument?

I'd have to say that if there were some actual reason behind the claims by our government, then there must be at least some truth in it. Why? Simply because the New Zeland government is very careful with it's political allies. We are small contry, with (as someone has already pointed out) an all-together useless (well, some might argue that) Air Force, and an nearly laughable Army. When the ess aich eye tee (oh come on, use your imagination...) hits the fan, then we will need all the help we can get.

And re our anti nuclear stance, while I might not agree with it, I find it impressive that we can order ships out of our waters from such "global power-houses" as the U.S and Japan. It is nice, in my humble opinion, to finally find a country standing up for what it believes in, even against impossible odds. Note, I do not include the "War on Terror" under this lable, as any simpleton will realise that few countries in our world can stand up to the full weight of the American Military might. Maybe China, but that is simply through attrition...(sp?)

EDIT: Changed to spell a particular 'S' word out in words, to make it more 'appropriate'. :rolleyes:

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Taffer
zenith-nadir, exactly how does that help the argument?

I'd have to say that if there were some actual reason behind the claims by our government, then there must be at least some truth in it. Why? Simply because the New Zeland government is very careful with it's political allies. We are small contry, with (as someone has already pointed out) an all-together useless (well, some might argue that) Air Force, and an nearly laughable Army. When the S-H-I-T hits the fan, then we will need all the help we can get.

And re our anti nuclear stance, while I might not agree with it, I find it impressive that we can order ships out of our waters from such "global power-houses" as the U.S and Japan. It is nice, in my humble opinion, to finally find a country standing up for what it believes in, even against impossible odds. Note, I do not include the "War on Terror" under this lable, as any simpleton will realise that few countries in our world can stand up to the full weight of the American Military might. Maybe China, but that is simply through attrition...(sp?)

Hi, Taffer. Welcome to the forum.

The mods and admins on this board are very precious when it comes to cusswords. They will probably jump down your neck for even spelling out bad swears. You're better off simply typing s***. It'll save you an assache* in the long run.

















*'Ass' as in 'mule'- for an aching ass is no good for carrying loads

[Taffer]

Thanks, my friend. :) I appreciate the advice. Having been a mod on other boards around the internet, I didn't think that it would cause many problems, but if I'm wrong then I'm happy to change it. Just so everyone knows, I spelt it out that way because it's easier then doing the way I have just changed it too. If you have no clue what I'm talking about, then don't worry ;).

EDIT: I will refrain from launching into my regular rant about why I feel the need to lable such 'bad' words as 'swear words' is silly, mainly because I am new to this forum and am enjoying it greatly, and would hate to be kicked off so soon ;).

...maybe later...:)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
If they are U-N-D-E-R-C-O-V-E-R they just might einstein, or they could use a Chinese passport or a Japanese passport or even a South Korean passport.'nuff said.

Smartarse. You then blithely ignore, although you did read, the next part, where I said I would take the response from the New Zealanders themselves as the indication of how serious this response is. The Government is not at all happy, and has made it clear it is not, quite vociferously. As far as they are concerned, it is not an everyday event that is just to be ignored.

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The Government is not at all happy, and has made it clear it is not, quite vociferously. As far as they are concerned, it is not an everyday event that is just to be ignored.


Not an everyday event huh?

Ronald Noble, Interpol's secretary general (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/27/terror/main602722.shtml) , told The Associated Press that only 34 countries of 181 members have agreed to share their data. But, together, they report 80,000 missing passports.

James Sullivan, U.S. national central bureau director for Interpol (http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2004-06-24-fake-passports_x.htm) , estimated there are more than 10 million stolen or lost passports in circulation, many of them from European countries where international travel is more common, he said.

The Sunday Age (http://www.theage.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2003/07/06/1057179212905.html) last week reported continuing concern about dozens of new Australian passports that were continuing to be lost or stolen in the mail, despite attempts to tighten procedures after more than 2000 were lost in the mail in 12 months. More than 14,000 Australian passports - a prime identity document under Australia's 100 points Proof of Identity system used by government departments, agencies and financial institutions - were reported lost or stolen in the five months to May this year.

The Marshall Islands government (http://abc.net.au/ra/newstories/RANewsStories_574409.htm) is continuing an investigation into stolen and forged passports after a man was sentenced in the U.S. last month in connection with the sale of documents ...which sold 15-hundred passports between 1994 and 1996.

So a couple spies get caught trying to get two Kiwi passports and the New Zealand "explodes". What the Israelis did is not lawful, but this entire episode has been blown totally out of proportion.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Not an everyday event huh?

Ronald Noble, Interpol's secretary general (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/27/terror/main602722.shtml) , told The Associated Press that only 34 countries of 181 members have agreed to share their data. But, together, they report 80,000 missing passports.

James Sullivan, U.S. national central bureau director for Interpol (http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2004-06-24-fake-passports_x.htm) , estimated there are more than 10 million stolen or lost passports in circulation, many of them from European countries where international travel is more common, he said.

The Sunday Age (http://www.theage.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2003/07/06/1057179212905.html) last week reported continuing concern about dozens of new Australian passports that were continuing to be lost or stolen in the mail, despite attempts to tighten procedures after more than 2000 were lost in the mail in 12 months. More than 14,000 Australian passports - a prime identity document under Australia's 100 points Proof of Identity system used by government departments, agencies and financial institutions - were reported lost or stolen in the five months to May this year.

The Marshall Islands government (http://abc.net.au/ra/newstories/RANewsStories_574409.htm) is continuing an investigation into stolen and forged passports after a man was sentenced in the U.S. last month in connection with the sale of documents ...which sold 15-hundred passports between 1994 and 1996.

So a couple spies get caught trying to get two Kiwi passports and the New Zealand "explodes". What the Israelis did is not lawful, but this entire episode has been blown totally out of proportion.

wow...Mossad has been busy;)

[Taffer]

No, zenith-nadir, in our contry it is not an everyday thing. That is why we are not happy. I bet the first time this kind if thing was cought in the US they were very pissed.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
Quack alert indeed...

He is indeed going to carry on running away from his own claims. He has been challenged publicly to support a claim. He has chosen not to do so. Until he does it can be taken that he made it up.

As to the contents of your latest post. I extensively justified my use of the term with the example of one of your own posts. It seems that justifying your claims is alien to you. And you still haven't seen fit to justify your original claim. You are nothing if not consistent in your anti-sceptical approach to debate. Perhaps one day you will see the point of justifying all your claims. Until then, QED.

[demon]

F.B.I. Investigating Whether Pentagon Official Spied for Israel
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: August 27, 2004


ASHINGTON (AP) -- The FBI is investigating whether an aide to the Pentagon's No. 3 official acted as a spy for Israel, giving the Jewish state classified materials about secret White House deliberations on Iran, two federal law enforcement officials said Friday.

No arrests have been made, said the officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the investigation is continuing.

The officials refused to identify the Pentagon employee who is under investigation, but said the person works in the office of Douglas J. Feith, the undersecretary of defense for policy at the Pentagon.

Feith is a key aide to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, working on sensitive policy issues, including U.S. policy toward Iraq and Iran.

The investigation centers on whether the employee in Feith's office passed secrets about Bush administration policy toward Iran to the main pro-Israeli lobbying group in Washington, the American-Israeli Political Action Committee, which then allegedly gave them to the Israeli government, one official said.

David Siegel, a spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington, said: "We categorically deny these allegations. They are completely false and outrageous.".....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/27/politics/27WIRE-ISRAEL.html
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