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Commonwealth Cousin
16th July 2004, 06:00 PM
Picked up from another Newsgroup - Comments please.

By Annie Jacobsen A WWS Exclusive Article Note from the Editors: You are about to read an account of what happened during a domestic flight that one of our writers, Annie Jacobsen, took from Detroit to Los Angeles. The WWS Editorial Team debated long and hard about how to handle this information and ultimately we decided it was something that should be shared. What does it have to do with finances? Nothing, and everything. Here is Annie's story.

On June 29, 2004, at 12:28 p.m., I flew on Northwest Airline flight #327 from Detroit to Los Angeles with my husband and our young son. Also on our flight were 14 Middle Eastern men between the ages of approximately 20 and50 years old. What I experienced during that flight has caused me to question whether the United States of America can realistically uphold the
civil liberties of every individual, even non-citizens, and protect its
citizens from terrorist threats.

On that Tuesday, our journey began uneventfully. Starting out that morning in Providence, Rhode Island, we went through security screening, flew to Detroit, and passed the time waiting for our connecting flight to Los Angeles by shopping at the airport stores and eating lunch at an airport diner. With no second security check required in Detroit we headed to our gate and waited for the pre-boarding announcement. Standing near us, also waiting to pre-board, was a group of six Middle Eastern men. They were carrying blue passports with Arabic writing. Two men wore tracksuits with Arabic writing across the back.
Two carried musical instrument cases - thin, flat, 18 long. One wore a yellow T-shirt and held a McDonald's bag. And the sixth man had a bad leg -- he wore an orthopedic shoe and limped. When the pre-boarding announcement was made, we handed our tickets to the Northwest Airlines agent, and walked down the jetway with the group of men directly behind us.

My four-year-old son was determined to wheel his carry-on bag himself, so I turned to the men behind me and said, You go ahead, this could be awhile.
No, you go ahead, one of the men replied. He smiled pleasantly and extended his arm for me to pass. He was young, maybe late 20's and had a goatee. I thanked him and we boarded the plan.

Once on the plane, we took our seats in coach (seats 17A, 17B and 17C). The man with the yellow shirt and the McDonald's bag sat across the aisle from us (in seat 17E). The pleasant man with the goatee sat a few rows back and across the aisle from us (in seat 21E). The rest of the men were seated throughout the plane, and several made their way to the back.

As we sat waiting for the plane to finish boarding, we noticed another large group of Middle Eastern men boarding. The first man wore a dark suit and sunglasses. He sat in first class in seat 1A, the seat second-closet to the cockpit door. The other seven men walked into the coach cabin. As aware Americans, my husband and I exchanged glances, and then continued to get
comfortable. I noticed some of the other passengers paying attention to the situation as well. As boarding continued, we watched as, one by one, most of the Middle Eastern men made eye contact with each other. They continued to look at each other and nod, as if they were all in agreement about
something. I could tell that my husband was beginning to feel anxious.

The take-off was uneventful. But once we were in the air and the seatbelt sign was turned off, the unusual activity began. The man in the yellow T-shirt got out of his seat and went to the lavatory at the front of coach -- taking his full McDonald's bag with him. When he came out of the lavatory he still had the McDonald's bag, but it was now almost empty. He walked down the aisle to the back of the plane, still holding the bag. When
he passed two of the men sitting mid-cabin, he gave a thumbs-up sign. When he returned to his seat, he no longer had the McDonald's bag.

Then another man from the group stood up and took something from his carry-on in the overhead bin. It was about a foot long and was rolled in cloth. He headed toward the back of the cabin with the object. Five minutes later, several more of the Middle Eastern men began using the forward lavatory consecutively. In the back, several of the men stood up and used the back lavatory consecutively as well.

For the next hour, the men congregated in groups of two and three at the back of the plane for varying periods of time. Meanwhile, in the first class cabin, just a foot or so from the cockpit door, the man with the dark suit - still wearing sunglasses - was also standing. Not one of the flight crew
members suggested that any of these men take their seats.

Watching all of this, my husband was now beyond anxious. I decided to try to reassure my husband (and maybe myself) by walking to the back bathroom. I knew the goateed-man I had exchanged friendly words with as we boarded the plane was seated only a few rows back, so I thought I would say hello to the man to get some reassurance that everything was fine. As I stood up and turned around, I glanced in his direction and we made eye contact. I threw out my friendliest remember-me-we-had-a-nice-exchange-just-a-short-time-ago smile. The man did not smile back. His face did not move. In fact, the cold, defiant look he gave me sent shivers down my spine.

When I returned to my seat I was unable to assure my husband that all was well. My husband immediately walked to the first class section to talk with the flight attendant. I might be overreacting, but I've been watching some really suspicious things... Before he could finish his statement, the flight attendant pulled him into the galley. In a quiet voice she explained
that they were all concerned about what was going on. The captain was aware. The flight attendants were passing notes to each other. She said that there were people on board higher up than you and me watching the men.
My husband returned to his seat and relayed this information to me. He was feeling slightly better. I was feeling much worse. We were now two hours into a four-in-a-half hour flight.

Approximately 10 minutes later, that same flight attendant came by with the drinks cart. She leaned over and quietly told my husband there were federal air marshals sitting all around us. She asked him not to tell anyone and explained that she could be in trouble for giving out that information. She then continued serving drinks.

About 20 minutes later the same flight attendant returned. Leaning over and whispering, she asked my husband to write a description of the yellow-shirted man sitting across from us. She explained it would look too suspicious if she wrote the information. She asked my husband to slip the note to her when he was done.

After seeing 14 Middle Eastern men board separately (six together, eight individually) and then act as a group, watching their unusual glances, observing their bizarre bathroom activities, watching them congregate in small groups, knowing that the flight attendants and the pilots were seriously concerned, and now knowing that federal air marshals were on board, I was officially terrified.. Before I'm labeled a racial profiler
or -- worse yet -- a racist, let me add this. A month ago I traveled to India to research a magazine article I was writing. My husband and I flew on a jumbo jet carrying more than 300 Hindu and Muslim men and women on board. We traveled throughout the country and stayed in a Muslim village 10 miles outside
Pakistan. I never once felt fearful. I never once felt unsafe. I never once had the feeling that anyone wanted to hurt me. This time was different.

Finally, the captain announced that the plane was cleared for landing. It had been four hours since we left Detroit. The fasten seat belt light came on and I could see downtown Los Angeles. The flight attendants made one final sweep of the cabin and strapped themselves in for landing. I began to relax. Home was in sight.

Suddenly, seven of the men stood up -- in unison -- and walked to the front and back lavatories. One by one, they went into the two lavatories, each spending about four minutes inside. Right in front of us, two men stood up against the emergency exit door, waiting for the lavatory to become available. The men spoke in Arabic among themselves and to the man in the yellow shirt sitting nearby. One of the men took his camera into the lavatory. Another took his cell phone. Again, no one approached the men.
Not one of the flight attendants asked them to sit down. I watched as the man in the yellow shirt, still in his seat, reached inside his shirt and pulled out a small red book. He read a few pages, then put the book back inside his shirt. He pulled the book out again, read a page or two more, and put it back. He continued to do this several more times.

I looked around to see if any other passengers were watching. I immediately spotted a distraught couple seated two rows back. The woman was crying into the man's shoulder. He was holding her hand. I heard him say to her, You've got to calm down. Behind them sat the once pleasant-smiling, goatee-wearing man.

I grabbed my son, I held my husband's hand and, despite the fact that I am not a particularly religious person, I prayed. The last man came out of the bathroom, and as he passed the man in the yellow shirt he ran his forefinger across his neck and mouthed the word No.

The plane landed. My husband and I gathered our bags and quickly, very quickly, walked up the jetway. As we exited the jetway and entered the airport, we saw many, many men in dark suits. A few yards further out into the terminal, LAPD agents ran past us, heading for the gate. I have since learned that the representatives of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD), the Federal Air Marshals
(FAM), and the Transportation Security Association (TSA) met our plane as it landed.
Several men -- who I presume were the federal air marshals on board -- hurried off the plane and directed the 14 men over to the side.

Knowing what we knew, and seeing what we'd seen, my husband and I decided to talk to the authorities. For several hours my husband and I were interrogated by the FBI. We gave sworn statement after sworn statement. We wrote down every detail of our account. The interrogators seemed especially
interested in the McDonald's bag, so we repeated in detail what we knew about the McDonald's bag.
A law enforcement official stood near us, holding 14 Syrian passports in his hand. We answered more questions. And finally we went home.

Home Sweet Home The next day, I began searching online for news about the incident. There was nothing. I asked a friend who is a local news correspondent if there were any arrests at LAX that day. There weren't. I called Northwest Airlines' customer service. They said write a letter. I wrote a letter, then followed up with a call to their public relations department. They said they were aware of the situation (sorry that happened!) but legally they have 30 days to reply.

I shared my story with a few colleagues. One mentioned she'd been on a flight with a group of foreign men who were acting strangely -- they turned out to be diamond traders. Another had heard a story on National Public Radio (NPR) shortly after 9/11 about a group of Arab musicians who were having a hard
time traveling on airplanes throughout the U.S. and couldn't get seats together. I took note of these two stories and continued my research. Here are excerpts from an article written by Jason Burke, Chief Reporter, and published in The Observer (a British newspaper based in London) on February 8, 2004:

Terrorist bid to build bombs in mid-flight: Intelligence reveals dry runs of new threat to blow up airliners Islamic militants have conducted dry runs of a devastating new style of bombing on aircraft flying to Europe, intelligence sources believe.

The tactics, which aim to evade aviation security systems by placing only components of explosive devices on passenger jets, allowing militants to assemble them in the air, have been tried out on planes flying between the Middle East, North Africa and Western Europe, security sources say.

...The... Transportation Security Administration issued an urgent memo detailing new threats to aviation and warning that terrorists in teams of five might be planning suicide missions to hijack commercial airliners, possibly using common items...such as cameras, modified as weapons.

...Components of IEDs [improvised explosive devices]can be smuggled on to an aircraft, concealed in either clothing or personal carry-on items... and assembled on board. In many cases of suspicious passenger activity, incidents have taken place in the aircraft's forward lavatory.

So here's my question: Since the FBI issued a warning to the airline industry to be wary of groups of five men on a plane who might be trying to build bombs in the bathroom, shouldn't a group of 14 Middle Eastern men be screened before boarding a flight?

Apparently not. Due to our rules against discrimination, it can't be done.
During the 9/11 hearings last April, 9/11 Commissioner John Lehman stated that ...it was the policy (before 9/11) and I believe remains the policy today to fine airlines if they have more than two young Arab males in secondary questioning because that's discriminatory.

So even if Northwest Airlines searched two of the men on board my Northwest flight, they couldn't search the other 12 because they would have already filled a government-imposed quota.

I continued my research by reading an article entitled Arab Hijackers Now Eligible For Pre-Boarding from Ann Coulter (www.anncoulter.com):

On September 21, as the remains of thousands of Americans lay smoldering at Ground Zero, [Secretary of Transportation Norman] Mineta fired off a letter to all U.S. airlines forbidding them from implementing the one security measure that could have prevented 9/11: subjecting Middle Eastern passengers
to an added degree of pre-flight scrutiny. He sternly reminded the airlines that it was illegal to discriminate against passengers based on their race, color, national or ethnic origin or religion.

Coulter also writes that a few months later, at Mr. Mineta's behest, the Department of Transportation (DOT) filed complaints against United Airlines and American Airlines (who, combined, had lost 8 pilots, 25 flight attendants and 213 passengers on 9/11 - not counting the 19 Arab hijackers). In November 2003, United Airlines settled their case with the DOT for $1.5 million. In March 2004, American Airlines settled their case with the DOT for $1.5
million.
The DOT also charged Continental Airlines with discriminating against passengers who appeared to be Arab, Middle Eastern or Muslim. Continental Airlines settled their complaint with the DOT in April of 2004 for $.5 million.

From what I witnessed, Northwest Airlines doesn't have to worry about Norman Mineta filing a complaint against them for discriminatory, secondary screening of Arab men. No one checked the passports of the Syrian men. No one inspected the contents of the two instrument cases or the McDonald's
bag. And no one checked the limping man's orthopedic shoe. In fact, according to the TSA regulations, passengers wearing an orthopedic shoe won't be asked to take it off. As their site states, Advise the screener if
you're wearing orthopedic shoes...screeners should not be asking you to remove your orthopedic shoes at any time during the screening process.

I placed a call to the TSA and talked to Joe Dove, a Customer Service Supervisor. I told him how we'd eaten with metal utensils moments in an airport diner before boarding the flight and how no one checked our luggage or the instrument cases being carried by the Middle Eastern men. Dove's response was, Restaurants in secured areas -- that's an ongoing problem. We
get that complaint often. TSA gets that complaint all the time and they haven't worked that out with the FAA. They're aware of it. You've got a good question.
There may not be a reasonable answer at this time, I'm not going to BS you.

At the Detroit airport no one checked our IDs. No one checked the folds in my newspaper or the content's of my son's backpack. No one asked us what we'd done during our layover, if we bought anything, or if anyone gave us anything while we were in the airport. We were asked all of these questions (and many others ) three weeks earlier when we'd traveled in Europe -- where passengers with airport layovers are rigorously questioned and screened before boarding any and every flight. In Detroit no one checked who we were or what we carried on board a 757 jet liner bound for American's largest metropolis.

Two days after my experience on Northwest Airlines flight #327 came this notice from SBS TV, The World News, July 1, 2004:

The U.S. Transportation and Security Administration has issued a new directive which demands pilots make a pre-flight announcement banning passengers from congregating in aisles and outside the plane's toilets. The directive also orders flight attendants to check the toilets every two hours for suspicious packages.

Through a series of events, The Washington Post heard about my story. I talked briefly about my experience with a representative from the newspaper.
Within a few hours I received a call from Dave Adams, the Federal Air Marshal Services (FAM) Head of Public Affairs. Adams told me what he knew:

There were 14 Syrians on NWA flight #327. They were questioned at length by FAM, the FBI and the TSA upon landing in Los Angeles. The 14 Syrians had been hired as musicians to play at a casino in the desert. Adams said they were scrubbed. None had arrest records (in America, I presume), none showed up on the FBI's no fly list or the FBI's Most Wanted Terrorists List. The
men checked out and they were let go. According to Adams, the 14 men traveled on Northwest Airlines flight #327 using one-way tickets. Two days later they were scheduled to fly back on jetBlue from Long Beach, California to New York -- also using one-way tickets.

I asked Adams why, based on the FBI's credible information that terrorists may try to assemble bombs on planes, the air marshals or the flight attendants didn't do anything about the bizarre behavior and frequent trips to the lavatory. Our FAM agents have to have an event to arrest somebody.
Our agents aren't going to deploy until there is an actual event, Adams explained. He said he could not speak for the policies of Northwest Airlines.

So the question is... Do I think these men were musicians? I'll let you decide.
But I wonder, if 19 terrorists can learn to fly airplanes into buildings, couldn't 14 terrorists learn to play instruments?

ssibal
16th July 2004, 06:15 PM
Sounds like exaggerated paranoia to me....... if the story is even real.

RCNelson
16th July 2004, 07:09 PM
Interesting article. FWIW, it seems to have originated from THIS WEBSITE (http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/article_landing.aspx?titleid=1&articleid=711).

Nasarius
16th July 2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by ssibal
Sounds like exaggerated paranoia to me....... if the story is even real.

I agree. I stopped reading after she mentioned Ann Coulter.
Don't you think that people who actually are up to something would take a little more care to not act suspiciously? She mentioned it's a four hour flight. So why the need for them to stand around by the bathroom? I can think of other ways to build a bomb out of parts from 14 people that would arouse less suspicion. For one thing, you can give all the parts to one person BEFORE you get on the plane, as long as you all get through the security checkpoint. No need for more than 2-3 people to get on the same flight. The others could just hand off their parts and get on a different flight.

The story doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Nasarius
16th July 2004, 08:04 PM
Heck, why not just build the darn bomb in the bathroom at the terminal? Much easier. Just get to the airport a couple hours before your flight. I've flown back and forth from JFK to Buffalo Niagara International several times in the past year, and I've never had more than an ID check after my bags were past the checkpoint. You could carry on a fully-functioning bomb that you built before getting on the plane, and no one would know it.

I hope I'm not giving anyone any ideas :)
But again, the story doesn't add up unless we're dealing with exceptionally stupid terrorists.

LostAngeles
16th July 2004, 08:36 PM
Also, there are no checks when you do a stopover for a reason.

You've been on a plane for x number of hours. Unless you're capable of teleporting your gun/bomb/whatnot, there's no reason to search you again.

Overblown paranoia seems to be it. If they were putting together a bomb, why is this woman here to tell her tale?

LostAngeles
16th July 2004, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Commonwealth Cousin
Picked up from another Newsgroup - Comments please.
...
There were 14 Syrians on NWA flight #327. They were questioned at length by FAM, the FBI and the TSA upon landing in Los Angeles. The 14 Syrians had been hired as musicians to play at a casino in the desert. Adams said they were scrubbed. None had arrest records (in America, I presume), none showed up on the FBI's no fly list or the FBI's Most Wanted Terrorists List. The
men checked out and they were let go. According to Adams, the 14 men traveled on Northwest Airlines flight #327 using one-way tickets. Two days later they were scheduled to fly back on jetBlue from Long Beach, California to New York -- also using one-way tickets.
...
So the question is... Do I think these men were musicians? I'll let you decide.
But I wonder, if 19 terrorists can learn to fly airplanes into buildings, couldn't 14 terrorists learn to play instruments?

I have a few more niggling points.

It may have been cheaper for them to fly that way. When you book on Orbitz you can fly different airlines.

And WTF is that last line supposed to mean?

shuize
17th July 2004, 12:05 AM
And WTF is that last line supposed to mean?I suppose the author means to say that if highjackers could learn to fly planes, potential highjackers could also learn to play instruments as a cover.

How much faith to put in this story? I don't know. Although I do think it's crazy that airlines spend more time checking grandma and grandpa at the gate than young middle eastern looking men.

It's also very stupid that, as this story points out, passengers can eat with metal utensils in airport resturants without any additional pre-boarding screening, and yet the security officers saw fit to confiscate my wife's eyelash tweezers on a recent flight.

My feeling is that the next terrorist attack is a matter of when not if. It will be interesting to see how many more such attacks it takes before we get serious about security. To me it is just common sense to give young middle eastern men a second look.

And before I'm accused of being racist, let me say I have no problem submitting to every extra security check I've been put through because of my last name -- (no it's not shuize) -- but it's got to be on a list somewhere for as many times as I've been asked to "Please step over here, Sir."

Tex
17th July 2004, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by LostAngeles

Overblown paranoia seems to be it. If they were putting together a bomb, why is this woman here to tell her tale?

To play devil's advoicate...

Maybe because they were just doing a dry run?

Ladewig
17th July 2004, 09:12 AM
Approximately 10 minutes later, that same flight attendant came by with the drinks cart. She leaned over and quietly told my husband there were federal air marshals sitting all around us. She asked him not to tell anyone and explained that she could be in trouble for giving out that information. She then continued serving drinks.

Yes. She told him that there were federal air marshals on board. She felt that the risk of losing her job if one of the air marshals overheard her or the risk of tipping off the suspicious-looking middle eastern men was much less important than trying to calm a passenger by letting him know that there were armed men all around him.

About 20 minutes later the same flight attendant returned. Leaning over and whispering, she asked my husband to write a description of the yellow-shirted man sitting across from us. She explained it would look too suspicious if she wrote the information. She asked my husband to slip the note to her when he was done.

Again, we seem to be straying from reality. Why would a written description of the man be needed if there were air marshals all around them? Even if it were needed. Couldn't she just look at him and return to the galley to write the description (which was to be given to who?). Also, wouldn't whispering to a passenger (twice) be somewhat suspicious?

The last man came out of the bathroom, and as he passed the man in the yellow shirt he ran his forefinger across his neck and mouthed the word No.
Because if Syrians wanted to send a covert message to each other they would mouth words in English while people across the aisle watched them.


I'll just wait until the story shows up on Snopes.

Ladewig
17th July 2004, 09:24 AM
Ann Coulter:
On September 21, as the remains of thousands of Americans lay smoldering at Ground Zero, [Secretary of Transportation Norman] Mineta fired off a letter to all U.S. airlines forbidding them from implementing the one security measure that could have prevented 9/11: subjecting Middle Eastern passengers
to an added degree of pre-flight scrutiny.

How the ***k would 9/11 been prevented if the hijackers had been subjected to additional screening. Box cutters were legal then. One-way tickets paid for with cash were legal then (as they are now). They had legitimate ID that matched the names on the tickets. How would additional screening have helped?

it was the policy (before 9/11) and I believe remains the policy today to fine airlines if they have more than two young Arab males in secondary questioning because that's discriminatory.

Secondary screening before 9/11? What U.S. airport engaged in any type of secondary screening before 9/11?

daenku32
17th July 2004, 10:47 AM
We all know that if we just forbid all middle-eastern looking people from flying on the planes, it will also prohibit Jihad Johnny and the like from doing so.

What next? Swearing on bible before entering the plane?

Rob Lister
17th July 2004, 10:59 AM
Unless I missed it in another's post to this thread, let me be the first to point out the obvious: The writer of this tale, be it true or false, greatly exceeds the description 'talented'. I'm not sure what that means but...well, I am sure what that means but not quite sure enough to explicitly state it. I'd rather allow implicit to do it's distasteful duty.

Edit to add: there is at least one flaw in the story that renders it as my implication suggests [sic].

Rob Lister
17th July 2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Rob Lister
Unless I missed it in another's post to this thread, let me be the first to point out the obvious: The writer of this tale, be it true or false, greatly exceeds the description 'talented'. I'm not sure what that means but...well, I am sure what that means but not quite sure enough to explicitly state it. I'd rather allow implicit to do it's distasteful duty.

Edit to add: there is at least one flaw in the story that renders it as my implication suggests [sic].

Sorry to post separately rather than just editing (again) my original, but lets turn this into a game. Since my last post I have discovered not one, but three written descriptions within the original post that make me seriously doubt the entire content. I'll give you the first one I discovered. How many can you find?

My first, which was only touched on by another poster:

She leaned over and quietly told my husband there were federal air marshals sitting all around us.

Does anyone else see the error(s!) of that assertion?

Skeptic
17th July 2004, 11:40 AM
My four-year-old son was determined to wheel his carry-on bag himself, so I turned to the men behind me and said, You go ahead, this could be awhile.
No, you go ahead, one of the men replied. He smiled pleasantly and extended his arm for me to pass. He was young, maybe late 20's and had a goatee. I thanked him and we boarded the plan.

The implication of this part being, apparently, that the "middle eastern man"'s politeness merely makes his sinister, shifty-eyed appearance even more suspicious?

Her strory seems to be that she boarded the plane with a dozen secret homocidal terrorists, but luckily they noticed the zillion air federal marshalls who were also secretly taking that flight, so nothing happened.

Well, that's one of two possiblities...

Mycroft
17th July 2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Ladewig
Again, we seem to be straying from reality. Why would a written description of the man be needed if there were air marshals all around them? Even if it were needed. Couldn't she just look at him and return to the galley to write the description (which was to be given to who?). Also, wouldn't whispering to a passenger (twice) be somewhat suspicious?


To play devil's advocate, if I were an airline steward and wanted to keep a passenger calm when they were letting their paranoia run wild, I might give them a task like that just to occupy them. Write down a description of these men, be sure to make it as detailed as possible. It gives them something to do other than spread their panic to other passengers, and if it turns out there is some justification to the fears, it might come in useful later.

Ditto with the air marshals. It's beyond belief that by coincidence there would be a large number of them aboard this aircraft, but a quick-thinking stewardess might say there were to head off a panicked passenger from doing something stupid. Someone convinced they’re in mortal peril from a danger only they can see is likely to do something that would endanger everyone (like confront one of the men and starting a brawl in the sky), but that same person told that the authorities are aware of the “situation” and were watching carefully is far less likely to.

Overall I'd dismiss the article as fear-mongering. Everything probably happened as described from the perspective of the writer, but nothing the writer describes is anything more than innuendo. Mysterious McDonalds bag? Using the bathroom? Talking to each other? A cold, defiant look in response to a friendly smile? It all adds up to nothing.

Musicians acting suspiciously around a bathroom? That’s drugs, not terrorism.

Rob Lister
17th July 2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Mycroft
Everything probably happened as described from the perspective of the writer,...

No, it almost certainly did not.

To witt...

As we sat waiting for the plane to finish boarding, we noticed another large group of Middle Eastern men boarding. The first man wore a dark suit and sunglasses. He sat in first class in seat 1A, the seat second-closet to the cockpit door.

Have you flown lately. This is just one of the many (ten so far by my count...but I'm still counting) statements that exceed unlikely and boarder on incredulous.

Mycroft
17th July 2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Rob Lister
Have you flown lately. This is just one of the many (ten so far by my count...but I'm still counting) statements that exceed unlikely and boarder on incredulous.

Help me out, Rob. What do you see wrong with this?

plindboe
17th July 2004, 02:11 PM
Paranoid idiocy. I bet these people just used the lavatory so often to pray, and these frequent visits is what fused the paranoia.

Why use 14 people on a suicide mission? That's just absurd.

Ladewig make some good points, there's stuff in the story that just doesn't fit at all.

This is a nice example that shows how unreliable anecdotes are.

Chaos
17th July 2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Rob Lister


No, it almost certainly did not.

To witt...



Have you flown lately. This is just one of the many (ten so far by my count...but I'm still counting) statements that exceed unlikely and boarder on incredulous.

Doesn´t the boarding procedure go from front to back - so someone on row one would have boarded before, not after, them?

Also, isn´t there a separating wall between the first rows (Business Class?) and the rest of the passenger rows (Economy Class?)? So they would not have seen this man anyway.

Rob Lister
17th July 2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Mycroft


Help me out, Rob. What do you see wrong with this?

What is the boarding order. No, forget that for the sake of argument. Often people board late.

Where did the guy with the sunglasses sit? Where was 'the teller of the story' sitting at the time of his boarding? What can you see from that position? What encombers your view? What encombers the view of the other party in 'we'? How does the teller know what the other 'noticed'?

These are only minor discrepancies and not even fully examined.

Removed a 't'.

Nasarius
17th July 2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Chaos
Doesn´t the boarding procedure go from front to back - so someone on row one would have boarded before, not after, them?

Nope, it's back to front (at least in my experience). Makes sense if you think about it, because everyone enters from the front. Lots of people spend a few minutes putting their stuff in the overhead compartments, so if you start from the front, they'd block everyone. The exception is "pre-boarding", where young children and their parents, and the handicapped go on first.

Again, I have to make the point that there's just no likely reason why a bomb would be built mid-flight rather than beforehand.

Nasarius
17th July 2004, 03:48 PM
Yet another reason why racial profiling is an incredibly bad idea:

Al Qaeda could try to recruit non-Arabs, FBI warns (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/07/17/fbi.bulletin/index.html)

Skeptic
17th July 2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Nasarius
Yet another reason why racial profiling is an incredibly bad idea:

Al Qaeda could try to recruit non-Arabs, FBI warns (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/07/17/fbi.bulletin/index.html)

Not necessarily. When they recruit as many non-Arabs as Arabs, then, maybe, a bad idea.

I mean, suppose you're looking for members of the Russian Mafia. Surely you're going to be looking for Russians first and foremost; this won't become an unresonable policy just because someone found out they are trying to recruit [/I]some[/I] non-Russians.

The Central Scrutinizer
17th July 2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Commonwealth Cousin
Picked up from another Newsgroup - Comments please.

By Annie Jacobsen A WWS Exclusive Article Note from the Editors:

....SNIP....

So the question is... Do I think these men were musicians? I'll let you decide.
But I wonder, if 19 terrorists can learn to fly airplanes into buildings, couldn't 14 terrorists learn to play instruments?


/Start Mr Rogers
Can you say "Urban Legend (http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp) "? I knew you could....
/End

RCNelson
17th July 2004, 04:51 PM
Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day at specific times, and before these prayers they are supposed to perform a ritual of washing up.

This could explain why they were all using the washroom at the same time.

CapelDodger
17th July 2004, 05:03 PM
"Picked up from another newsgroup" ... like a nasty itch. So there are these guys pirouetting about like extras in a training video, and there are air marshals about. What kind of dreams cause air marshals to dampen the sheets? And yet they do nothing. I'll go hands up : I don't buy it.

Mycroft
17th July 2004, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Rob Lister
What is the boarding order. No, forget that for the sake of argument. Often people board late.

Where did the guy with the sunglasses sit? Where was 'the teller of the story' sitting at the time of his boarding? What can you see from that position? What encombers your view? What encombers the view of the other party in 'we'? How does the teller know what the other 'noticed'?


Eh, too small a nit to pick. Maybe she saw him seated at boarding, maybe she noticed his seating at some other time in the four hour long flight and filled in the detail later.

Nasarius
17th July 2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Skeptic


Not necessarily. When they recruit as many non-Arabs as Arabs, then, maybe, a bad idea.

I mean, suppose you're looking for members of the Russian Mafia. Surely you're going to be looking for Russians first and foremost; this won't become an unresonable policy just because someone found out they are trying to recruit [/I]some[/I] non-Russians.

Sure, but again, terrorists aren't stupid. The second you start racial profililng at airports is the second they start using exclusively non-Arabs to do their real work.

LostAngeles
17th July 2004, 09:56 PM
In my short experience, on an all-coach flight boarding is from back to front, with disabled passengers being the very first to board. My (one-way) flight out here to L.A. had first-class and coach. The first-class passengers were boarded, then came us peons.

Another two cents into this jar.

Regnad Kcin
17th July 2004, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
/Start Mr Rogers
Can you say "Urban Legend (http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp) "? I knew you could....
/End Snopes clearly says, "Undetermined." So it might turn out to be an urban legend, and might not.

The Fool
17th July 2004, 10:33 PM
I believe every word of it.

Last time I flew there were 86 people on board 70 terrorists 15 Air Marshalls and me.... Luckily I had the presence of mind to jump to my Just before takeoff and scream "don't bother trying anything, I'm on to you". This proved so effective that there was no problems for the entire flight... everyone just sat there staring at me and looking a little nervous....Think I may start doing that every time.

Ladewig
17th July 2004, 10:45 PM
Once on the plane, we took our seats in coach (seats 17A, 17B and 17C). The man with the yellow shirt and the McDonald's bag sat across the aisle from us (in seat 17E). The pleasant man with the goatee sat a few rows back and across the aisle from us (in seat 21E). The rest of the men were seated throughout the plane, and several made their way to the back.

As we sat waiting for the plane to finish boarding, we noticed another large group of Middle Eastern men boarding. The first man wore a dark suit and sunglasses. He sat in first class in seat 1A, the seat second-closet to the cockpit door.

If you are sitting in 17 A,B, or C and you can see someone board after you and sit in seat 1A, (which is on the same side of the plane) then you must have the type of x-ray vision that rivals Superman's. As the seating plan for a 757-300 (http://www.seatguru.com/northwest/B753.shtml) shows, there is a lavatory between rows 17 and 1.

Ladewig
17th July 2004, 10:52 PM
To play devil's advocate, if I were an airline steward and wanted to keep a passenger calm when they were letting their paranoia run wild, I might give them a task like that just to occupy them. Write down a description of these men, be sure to make it as detailed as possible. It gives them something to do other than spread their panic to other passengers, and if it turns out there is some justification to the fears, it might come in useful later.

Ditto with the air marshals. It's beyond belief that by coincidence there would be a large number of them aboard this aircraft, but a quick-thinking stewardess might say there were to head off a panicked passenger from doing something stupid. Someone convinced they’re in mortal peril from a danger only they can see is likely to do something that would endanger everyone (like confront one of the men and starting a brawl in the sky), but that same person told that the authorities are aware of the “situation” and were watching carefully is far less likely to.

Yeah. I could buy all that. On the other hand, later on we are told..
Several men -- who I presume were the federal air marshals on board -- hurried off the plane and directed the 14 men over to the side.

[visions of Gomer yelling, "citizen's ARREST, citizen's ARREST]

Rob Lister
18th July 2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Ladewig
If you are sitting in 17 A,B, or C and you can see someone board after you and sit in seat 1A, (which is on the same side of the plane) then you must have the type of x-ray vision that rivals Superman's. As the seating plan for a 757-300 (http://www.seatguru.com/northwest/B753.shtml) shows, there is a lavatory between rows 17 and 1.

Don't forget the curtain. There is nothing more distasteful than having to look at coach class while sipping your slightly iced Bayley's. I suppose they enjoy looking at us -- who wouldn't -- but the curtain remains closed in any case.

Hutch
18th July 2004, 05:36 PM
Interesting thread. Just to contribute, I checked travelocity.com and there is an actual Northwest Flight 327 from Detroit to LA with a scheduled departure of 12:22pm. And the Detroit area is home to a large number of Arab-Americans.

Otherwise, I am skeptical. A casino hiring a Syrian band all the way from Syria? For a 2-day performance? Surely there are Middle Eastern bands from closer than that.

And considering our relations with Syria, I would bet a tattered Egyptian pound that even if they somehow acquired Visas, they were thoughly checked out when they arrived in the US.

Otherwise, I concur that the stewardess showed the most intelligence of the bunch.

Commonwealth Cousin
18th July 2004, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Nasarius
Sure, but again, terrorists aren't stupid. The second you start racial profililng at airports is the second they start using exclusively non-Arabs to do their real work.

Isn't it likely that non-Arab terrorists don't have a death wish and would hardly volunteer to be martyrs for such a cause? The 400 virgins theory wouldn't apply to them and anyway, if you do the math since the start of civilisation, the ratio of a minimum 400 females to one male doesn't add up.

This is merely an observation and I wouldn't like to change the main subject matter of the thread.

Cleon
18th July 2004, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Commonwealth Cousin
Isn't it likely that non-Arab terrorists don't have a death wish and would hardly volunteer to be martyrs for such a cause? The 400 virgins theory wouldn't apply to them and anyway, if you do the math since the start of civilisation, the ratio of a minimum 400 females to one male doesn't add up.

This is merely an observation and I wouldn't like to change the main subject matter of the thread.

Religious fundamentalism knows no skin color or language. Non-Arabs can just as easily become nutcases as Arabs. Hell, Iran isn't an Arab country. Nor is Afghanistan.

Nasarius
18th July 2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Commonwealth Cousin
Isn't it likely that non-Arab terrorists don't have a death wish and would hardly volunteer to be martyrs for such a cause? The 400 virgins theory wouldn't apply to them and anyway, if you do the math since the start of civilisation, the ratio of a minimum 400 females to one male doesn't add up.

This is merely an observation and I wouldn't like to change the main subject matter of the thread.

Ah, but "real work" does not have to involve suicide. In this case, by "real work" I meant smuggling explosives/weapons through airport security, which can then be handed off to the real fanatic. That would render racial profiling worse than useless.

(edit) Oops, I wrote customs when I meant airport security in general.

The Central Scrutinizer
18th July 2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Snopes clearly says, "Undetermined." So it might turn out to be an urban legend, and might not.

Lee Harvey Oswald never stood trial for shooting Kennedy. So he might have done it, and he might not.

Occams razor says this is an UL. And that LHO killed JFK.

Regnad Kcin
18th July 2004, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Lee Harvey Oswald never stood trial for shooting Kennedy. So he might have done it, and he might not.

Occams razor says this is an UL. And that LHO killed JFK. Meanwhile, back at the thread...

You chimed into this discussion with a clear allusion, accompanied by a link to Snopes, which implies that they would provide further details to bolster your point. They did nothing of the sort.

Snopes may yet still give this their blessing or disregard, but as of right now, "Undetermined" means undetermined.

The Central Scrutinizer
18th July 2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Meanwhile, back at the thread...

You chimed into this discussion with a clear allusion, accompanied by a link to Snopes, which implies that they would provide further details to bolster your point. They did nothing of the sort.

Snopes may yet still give this their blessing or disregard, but as of right now, "Undetermined" means undetermined.

Well, given that in the 8 years and 3 months I have been on the Internet, I have received hundreds, if not thousands, of these "true" stories. In that time, exactly zero, yes ZERO, of them has been true. This one is an Urban Legend. If you choose to believe it, that is fine.

Mycroft
19th July 2004, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Nasarius
Sure, but again, terrorists aren't stupid. The second you start racial profililng at airports is the second they start using exclusively non-Arabs to do their real work.

That sounds like a good argument for racial profiling. If they have to recruit exclusively non-Arab agents, they are slowed down considerably.

Mycroft
19th July 2004, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Well, given that in the 8 years and 3 months I have been on the Internet, I have received hundreds, if not thousands, of these "true" stories. In that time, exactly zero, yes ZERO, of them has been true. This one is an Urban Legend. If you choose to believe it, that is fine.

I've expressed my own doubts, but I have to point out this story has provenance. We know who wrote it, and we know the publication it was printed in. That it later becomes circulated on the Internet doesn't take anything away from that.

Cleon
19th July 2004, 04:26 AM
For those interested, snopes' take is here (http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp) .

Status: Undetermined.

richardm
19th July 2004, 05:39 AM
Got this one on your list, Rob?


The man in the yellow T-shirt got out of his seat and went to the lavatory at the front of coach -- taking his full McDonald's bag with him. When he came out of the lavatory he still had the McDonald's bag, but it was now almost empty. He walked down the aisle to the back of the plane, still holding the bag. When he passed two of the men sitting mid-cabin, he gave a thumbs-up sign.


Oh dear. To an Arab, a thumbs-up translates to "up yours" - the equivalent of the middle finger, or two fingers in British vernacular. As many a Western hitchhiker in the Middle East has discovered to their cost.

Perhaps the plot wasn't going as well as they hoped - or perhaps the whole thing was just invented by the writer.

richardm
19th July 2004, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by Rob Lister
Don't forget the curtain. There is nothing more distasteful than having to look at coach class while sipping your slightly iced Bayley's. I suppose they enjoy looking at us -- who wouldn't -- but the curtain remains closed in any case.

Isn't the curtain usually tied back for takeoff and landing, though? I agree it's important to get it closed as rapidly as possible after that, to make sure you don't get looked at by the cattle class people {shudder}

Mycroft
19th July 2004, 09:12 PM
She's written a sequel to her article:

Last Tuesday morning, WomensWallStreet.com (WWS) published my first-person account of a recent Northwest Airlines flight that I took from Detroit to Los Angeles called "Terror in the Skies, Again?" A heads up about this article went out in our Daily Cents email -- our subscriber newsletter which primarily features financial tips and information for women.

On Wednesday morning, the WWS page views were unusually high, something like 10 times the normal amount. Apparently our readers had been emailing the article to their friends, family and colleagues and everyone was reading it.

By Thursday morning, that number had again multiplied ten-fold. It felt like the shampoo commercial from my youth: they told two friends, then they told two friends, then they told two friends. We sat in the WWS offices reading through your emails, taking stock of what you had to say. As the afternoon went on, the number of people reading the article continued to increase and the telephone was ringing off the hook.

And then a powerful thing happened. The mainstream media started calling...

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/article_landing.aspx?titleid=1&articleid=714

Regnad Kcin
20th July 2004, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Well, given that in the 8 years and 3 months I have been on the Internet, I have received hundreds, if not thousands, of these "true" stories. In that time, exactly zero, yes ZERO, of them has been true. This one is an Urban Legend. If you choose to believe it, that is fine. I don't believe or disbelieve it. Just as Snopes indicates (in the link you posted), it can't yet be determined. We'll see.

Regnad Kcin
20th July 2004, 08:21 AM
Well, I just posted, having missed the follow-up article that Mycroft linked to immediately above. So it seems the piece is on the level, more or less. I say more or less because both articles are filled with speculation and hearsay and unconfirmable points. I'd very much enjoy questioning Ms. Jacobsen directly without the buffer of her writing getting in the way.

Jaggy Bunnet
20th July 2004, 08:34 AM
How big does the conspiracy need to be for this not to have hit the mainstream media from multiple sources?

Was she the only one on the plane who noticed anything wrong? (Not according to her report)

Were the crew in on it as well? (Only she claims that the crew were willing to talk to her about it - but not apparently to any media outlet.

Did nobody on the ground notice? (That would include all those "suits" who met the plane, the air marshalls, immigration etc, etc plus air traffic control staff)

Why did the plane land at a (presumably) busy airport? (All those people acting suspiciously, air marshalls on the plane, "reception committee" on the ground and they didn't divert it to a remote air force base?

Maybe she's right and everyone is involved in the cover up or.....

c0rbin
20th July 2004, 08:51 AM
The Author of the article is lucky that super Dane Claus wasn't aboard.

There would have been blood running down the aisle for sure!

gnome
20th July 2004, 09:01 AM
All I have to say is...if I was a federal marshal and saw a group of people behaving that way... arab or not... it would occur to me that maybe I should check out the bathroom, maybe interfere with what's going on in some way?

Nasarius
20th July 2004, 10:38 AM
Annie and her husband were on "Scarborough Country" on MSNBC. Here's the transcript:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5465847/

There are also a couple videos:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/

Which MSNBC won't let me view because I'm not using Windows. :rolleyes:

Nasarius
20th July 2004, 11:03 AM
Given that fully half of the second story is devoted entirely to more arm-waving about how we need racial profiling, my guess is that this is a true story that was embellished and is now being used to draw attention to and push a political agenda.

I've read through a few blogs (why can't anyone just have a normal website anymore? :mad: ) that I found through Google, talking about this article, but I found surprisingly few people who took issue with the "dry run" theory. Can anyone defend it, given what I and others have already posted on this thread?

Mycroft
22nd July 2004, 08:50 AM
It seems some enterprising young man decided to do some research and found the casino where the Syrian musicians were playing.

Annie Jacobsen's recent piece for WomensWallStreet.Com made waves. Her account of flying with her family while 14 Middle Eastern passengers acted in a threatening and apparently coordinated manner makes for a terrifying read. Her article captures her sickening sense of both uncertainty and inevitability as what might possibly have been the next 9/11 unfolded around her.

Fortunately, nothing of the sort happened. On June 29, Northwest Airlines Flight 327 landed safely in Los Angeles and a phalanx of law enforcement greeted the suspicious passengers, whisking them away for some intense interviews. Jacobsen noted a pile of Syrian passports in the hand of a law-enforcement official.

But the men checked out, and Jacobsen was told that they were "hired as musicians to play at a casino in the desert." She was not told the name of the band, nor the name of the casino. And as her story made the rounds through the Internet and beyond (the Dallas Morning News printed a condensed version earlier this week), a note of skepticism about her story crept in. Had she imagined the whole thing? Or was the government covering up a "dry run" for another terrorist attack?

.....

Well, I am nominally the "news director" for Stanford University's student radio station, KZSU, and I figured I'd help the Times out. There aren't that many casinos in southern California, so I had my research assistant, Mr. Google, take a look at some. An hour later I was talking to the nice folks at Sycuan Casino & Resort, near San Diego. Unlike most casinos where it's all Elvis impersonators, Paul Anka, and Linda Ronstadt — oh, wait, scratch that last one — Sycuan books the occasional "ethnic music" show, too. In August, for example, they'll have a Vietnamese night.

"Oh, do you mean Arab music?" inquired Angie, who answered Sycuan's phone. Yes, they had had an Arab act perform on July 1, an artist named Nour Mehana. Terry, Angie's supervisor at Sycuan, confirmed that he was there and that there was probably a backup band brought in, since there's no house band at Sycuan. In fractions of a second, Mr. Google found a website for Sycuan's event promoters, Anthem Artists, whose archive confirms Nour Mehana performed at Sycuan on 7/01/04.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/taylor200407211921.asp

pgwenthold
22nd July 2004, 09:00 AM
"...Mehana comes across not as an angry jihadi, but rather more like the Syrian Wayne Newton.

Much more like Wayne Newton:"

Take a look at the pics. What a riot.

Ladewig
22nd July 2004, 09:40 AM
A student at a college radio station was able to provide facts that the professional journalist missed. Well, I can't have that much respect for Annie Jacobson.

Jabberwock
22nd July 2004, 03:25 PM
A pilot's perspective. It doesn't really add anything new, but does find some of the logic holes. You may have to watch a commercial to read it

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2004/07/21/askthepilot95/index.html

gnome
22nd July 2004, 03:55 PM
There were how many other passengers on that plane? How come she's the only one the news media took testimonial from?

Could it be because the other passengers' stories were... boring?

Liberal media, indeed.

Regnad Kcin
22nd July 2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Jabberwock
A pilot's perspective. It doesn't really add anything new, but does find some of the logic holes. You may have to watch a commercial to read it

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2004/07/21/askthepilot95/index.html He [the pilot and commentator] comes across like a good skeptic, doesn't he?

a_unique_person
22nd July 2004, 05:34 PM
FWIW, Snopes now says false. Maybe they have been following this thread.

The woman is supposed to be a writer, and she did no real journalism on this story, other than state the obvious.

Reminds of the poor bastards who were medical students making there way across the US the hard way, by road, and were suspected of being terrorists by a waitress. Understandable, perhaps, after 9/11, but what they experienced would have been terrifying.

Nasarius
22nd July 2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Jabberwock
A pilot's perspective. It doesn't really add anything new, but does find some of the logic holes. You may have to watch a commercial to read it

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2004/07/21/askthepilot95/index.html

I loved this quote:
"Soon after 9/11 we were in a local McDonald's and a group of Middle Eastern men came in and got carry-out. They sat in their van for a while then headed North. I felt scared out of my wits. I wrote down a description of the vehicle and license, but never did anything with it. Guess next time I won't be so stupid."
Wow. Xenophobia at its finest.

LostAngeles
23rd July 2004, 12:54 PM
You know, reading that Salon article I wondered:

How do the musicians in question feel about this? Think anyone's interviewed them yet?

Bjorn
23rd July 2004, 10:32 PM
San Diego, 10 minutes ago, KPBS in the background and the story got a new political angle:

According to Tucker Carlson the reason nobody else reacted or deared to anything at all was the fear of being accused of racism. That's how far we have come in America these days.

He raised no doubts about the story itself (as far as one trusts my memory).

"Shouldn't we tell the police about that black guy placing a bomb across the aile, dear?" "Are you crazy? This is an equal oportunity airline!"

PygmyPlaidGiraffe
24th July 2004, 05:54 PM
A black eye (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3910965.stm)

this incident was unprecedented

Benguin
26th July 2004, 04:45 AM
Snopes now has it false

Babs is sure now (http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp)

pgwenthold
26th July 2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Benguin
Snopes now has it false

Babs is sure now (http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp)

I like this part

"'They (Air marshalls) have to be very cognizant of their surroundings," spokesman Adams confirmed, "to make sure it isn't a ruse to try and pull them out of their cover.'"

So by flying off the handle, Jacobson almost set the whole plane into panic, but the best part was, her actions caused her to become suspect herself!

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

The writeup on Snopes seems to give some perspective. This woman was basically hysterical, to the point of being disruptive to real security. I don't expect her to write a dispassioned account of what happened.

TragicMonkey
26th July 2004, 12:30 PM
Sounds like the woman made quite a spectacle of herself on the plane. Guess the worst blow is that the feds suspected HER of being a terrorist, trying to get the air marshals to identify themselves.

Her whole story read too much like what a naive American would imagine a terrorist plot to be like. Throat-cutting gestures? Sounds like describing bank robbers as wearing black and white stripes and carrying big sacks labelled with a dollar sign.

Five bucks says the "young guy with the goatee" thought she was flirting with him, and froze in horrified panic. Who wouldn't?

Some Friggin Guy
28th July 2004, 01:43 AM
Listneing to the Glenn Beck show this morning (shoot me), the guest host was saying something about "new evidence" about this story. I didn't get to hear what he was touting, but I imagine it's something incredibly trivial that he embellished.

Anyone hear the show and can fill us in?

RCNelson
28th July 2004, 06:54 AM
Some Friggin Guy:
Anyone hear the show and can fill us in? I didn't hear the show, but maybe it was this:
The Washington (Moonie) Times:
Almost all of the Syrian musicians who were questioned by law-enforcement officials after exhibiting suspicious behavior aboard a Northwest Airlines flight were traveling on expired visas.
The 14 men in the band were questioned by several agencies that make up the Joint Terrorism Task Force after the pilot aboard Flight 327 from Detroit to Los Angeles on June 29 radioed for law-enforcement assistance.
A spokesman for the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) confirmed that 13 of the 14 musicians entered the country May 30 and the visas expired June 10, but the men were not detained. The 14th musician is a U.S. resident and citizen.
The backup band was hired to play with Nour Mehana, widely referred to as Syria's Wayne Newton, and were flying on one-way tickets with a return trip on JetBlue.

gnome
28th July 2004, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
Listneing to the Glenn Beck show this morning (shoot me), the guest host was saying something about "new evidence" about this story. I didn't get to hear what he was touting, but I imagine it's something incredibly trivial that he embellished.

Anyone hear the show and can fill us in?

I tune out when there are guest hosts...

But I know Glenn Beck was all over the story, uncritically, when it first broke.

zakur
5th August 2004, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by Jabberwock
A pilot's perspective. It doesn't really add anything new, but does find some of the logic holes. You may have to watch a commercial to read it

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2004/07/21/askthepilot95/index.html Ad-free version here: http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/salon30.htm

Tony
5th August 2004, 04:33 AM
Glenn Beck has got to be the biggest pud on the radio.