A testing time for Homeopathic medicines

[Benguin]

From plans for development of health provision in India
Pharmacopoeial Standards

3.6.19 Pharmacopoeial standardisation of Ayurveda, Siddha and Unani Medicine, both for single and compound drugs, is essential. The Department had taken up the task of developing Pharmacopoeial Standards through Pharmacopoeia Committees. Four Pharmacopoeial Committees are working for preparing official formularies/pharmacopoeias to maintain uniform standards in preparation of drugs of Ayurveda, Unani, Siddha and Homoeoapathy and to prescribe working standards for single drug as well as compound formulations. The Pharmacopoeia Committees in Ayurveda, Siddha, Unani and Homoeopathy are headed by experts in their respective fields.

3.6.20 Pharmacopoeial Laboratory for Indian Medicine,Ghaziabad, was established in 1970 as standards setting-cum-drug testing laboratory for ISM at the National level. The standards worked out are published in the form of monographs. During the Ninth Plan period the ongoing pharmacopoeial work, development of pharmacopoeial standards, listing essential drugs and formulations will be completed expeditiously . The work of pharmacopoeial laboratories attached to the Department will be supplemented by laboratories of CCRAS and university/college departments of Chemistry and Bio-chemistry. Strengthening of State Drug Testing Laboratories will also be taken up to ensure quality of drugs used in ISM&H. In addition GMP for production of drugs of good quality and strengthening of quality control laboratories will be encouraged .



Do I read that right? Are they suggesting they are going to be able to do quality (by which I understand compliance) tests on prepared homeo potions?

I'm sure the million dollars they'll be getting will help loads with healthcare provision ...

Taken from here (http://planningcommission.nic.in/plans/planrel/fiveyr/9th/vol2/v2c3-6.htm)

edited to add:
ISM & H stands for Indian system of medicine & homeopathy, it includes yoga, ayruvedic, traditional herbal, and a few other things. That research acknowledges (more recently) that the students going to the colleges teaching these things are predominantly failed entrants to regular medical college.

[Prester John]

GMP and quality control don't mean they will be testing stuff. Just form filling.

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Prester John
GMP and quality control don't mean they will be testing stuff. Just form filling.

I suspected that to be true, but then why is it a 'laboratory', rather than just an office or inspectorate?

[Quasi]

Just remember, science cannot understand love or quantum medicine, therefore there is no need to test.
Seriously, this is another quack diversion to claim that it is "scientific" because it is approved by people who have an economic stake in the outcome (conflict of interest anyone?) They will not test it because it will be a failure, so here they are giving it the facade of respectability by inventing non-rules and putting some pharmacopeia stamp on it. Same thing in the US, the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia does not list any information on use or efficacy as the USP does. In other words, it is Indian taxpayer supported product marketing.

[Prester John]

Originally posted by Benguin
I suspected that to be true, but then why is it a 'laboratory', rather than just an office or inspectorate?

I'd guess because the "remedies" are made in a "laboratory". The form filling and production control is done in the laboratory.

Where i work we operate to GMP, have a Quality Control system and a Quality Assurance Lab which actually tests products for compliance with the regs.

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Quasi
Just remember, science cannot understand love or quantum medicine, therefore there is no need to test.
Seriously, this is another quack diversion to claim that it is "scientific" because it is approved by people who have an economic stake in the outcome (conflict of interest anyone?) They will not test it because it will be a failure, so here they are giving it the facade of respectability by inventing non-rules and putting some pharmacopeia stamp on it. Same thing in the US, the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia does not list any information on use or efficacy as the USP does. In other words, it is Indian taxpayer supported product marketing.

I'd put money on it being donor-supported in a large part. That plan smells of foreign consultant to me!

No idea what their vested interest might be, other than the usual 'say what the client wants said' and 'for god's sake, win future work'.

[Quasi]

As with Prester J, I also worked in a GMP/QC/QA position in a biotech company and actually made pharm drugs for a human clinical trial, and did the QC work for FDA approval of a medical device in the US (it was approved.) It would be humorous if they could be pressured into making actual claims and setting about one manufacturing standard for homeopathic stuff. Of course, no two homeopaths practice the same way, so this is impossible. As in the other threads here, there are no solid homeopathic facts or principles at all. If the Indian government could be pressured into just one concession (single manufacturing method, use, etc.) it would be big because then it could be disproven. It is too bad that the law will likely be cradled by homeopathic apologists from draft to approval.

[Sarah-I]

I have just been reading the most recent edition of the American Journal of Homeopathic Medicine and very good reading it is too. It is published by the American Institute of Homeopathy.

In this edition there is a famous British homeopath who has been interviewed. He was asked what homeopathy had done for him and it cured him of peritonitis. He went to see a doctor and was diagnosed with peritonitis. He was advised to undergo abdominal surgery and receive intravenous metronidazole. He refused and was labelled as insane for ignoring medical advice. He escaped from the hospital barely able to stand and staggered home and took Some PYROGEN and then later CHINA and made a full recovery.

At another time he was rushed to hospital with kidney stones. Before any surgeon could get to him, he took a dose of CALCAREA CARBONICA and started to pass the stones. He then took the remedy CALCAREA RENALIS and this finished off the cure.

So, homeopathy really does work in serious and acute cases, as can be demonstrated by this article.

Of course there is a philosophy in homeopathy. What do you think Hahnemann was doing all his life? He was experimenting with different remedies and writing 6 editions of the Organon and also Chronic Diseases and Materia Medica Pura.

[Rolfe]

Hello, NHCoraHS. I see they airbrushed you at H'pathy too.

You know the JREF rule about sock puppets still applies, don't you? You'd do better to ask Darat to change your user name, you know.

Rolfe.

[Sarah-I]

I have just come here to have a look as a proponent of homeopathy. I have never visited the Hpathy forums until just a minute ago when I clicked on your link. It seems very interesting and I may well join up to start posting.

All very interesting stuff.

[Rolfe]

Yes, you said that last time. We remember.

Rolfe.

[Prester John]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
I have just been reading the most recent edition of the American Journal of Homeopathic Medicine and very good reading it is too. It is published by the American Institute of Homeopathy.

In this edition there is a famous British homeopath who has been interviewed. He was asked what homeopathy had done for him and it cured him of peritonitis. He went to see a doctor and was diagnosed with peritonitis. He was advised to undergo abdominal surgery and receive intravenous metronidazole. He refused and was labelled as insane for ignoring medical advice. He escaped from the hospital barely able to stand and staggered home and took Some PYROGEN and then later CHINA and made a full recovery.

At another time he was rushed to hospital with kidney stones. Before any surgeon could get to him, he took a dose of CALCAREA CARBONICA and started to pass the stones. He then took the remedy CALCAREA RENALIS and this finished off the cure.

So, homeopathy really does work in serious and acute cases, as can be demonstrated by this article.

Of course there is a philosophy in homeopathy. What do you think Hahnemann was doing all his life? He was experimenting with different remedies and writing 6 editions of the Organon and also Chronic Diseases and Materia Medica Pura.

When i was a boy i found some magic beans and a giant beanstalk grew in my garden...

Oh sorry i thought this was a Jackanory thread.

So no homeopathy doesn't work and therr isn't any evidence that it does, apart from stories of course.

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by Benguin
Do I read that right? Are they suggesting they are going to be able to do quality (by which I understand compliance) tests on prepared homeo potions?

So they need to prove that there is nothing in them before they can be sold?

*rimshot*

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
So, homeopathy really does work in serious and acute cases, as can be demonstrated by this article.
Since when does an interview "demonstrate" anything in science?

Of course there is a philosophy in homeopathy. What do you think Hahnemann was doing all his life? He was experimenting with different remedies and writing 6 editions of the Organon and also Chronic Diseases and Materia Medica Pura.
Science isn't interested in "philosophy." Science is interested in demonstration by carefully designed and controlled experimentation.

This is what we are after here. Scientific demonstration that this water somehow defies the laws of physics and chemistry and manages to perform magical cures on organisms. We here at JREF would be satisfied with some homeopath somewhere stepping up to take the simple Randi test proposed long ago: reliably distinguish between bottles of water and bottles of homeopathic nostrums. Of course, no homeopath is interested in earning a million dollars and putting an end both to the controversy and the whines about a lack of available funds.

If you love us, use us.

[Sarah-I]

Well, have just been reading about Dr Richard Pitcairn the American homeopathic vet about his journey to homeopathy.

What a truly inspirational story. You could all learn a lot by reading this.

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
What a truly inspirational story. You could all learn a lot by reading this.

Inspiration is all well and good, but I think what would satisfy the posters here is:

* Experimental evidence showing homeopathy works better than a placebo.

Shouldn't be too hard to dig up evidence on a technique that has been used as long as homeopathy has ... right?

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Well, have just been reading about Dr Richard Pitcairn the American homeopathic vet about his journey to homeopathy.

What a truly inspirational story. You could all learn a lot by reading this.
More "stories?" More anecdotes? More interviews?

Got Science?

[RabbiSatan]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Well, have just been reading about Dr Richard Pitcairn the American homeopathic vet about his journey to homeopathy.

What a truly inspirational story. You could all learn a lot by reading this.

Stories don't mean anything - I can easily dig up "stories" where people have seen Elvis still alive, people who "swore" that they saw Nessie for just a few seconds, and where people saw those pesky UFOs comming to earth to make patterns in our wheat fields.

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Well, have just been reading about Dr Richard Pitcairn the American homeopathic vet about his journey to homeopathy.

What a truly inspirational story. You could all learn a lot by reading this.

I would only seek inspiration from someone who's proved something. Homeopaths can't even prove they are convincing fraudsters. So no, I shan't read it just yet thank you.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
I have just come here to have a look as a proponent of homeopathy. I have never visited the Hpathy forums until just a minute ago when I clicked on your link. It seems very interesting and I may well join up to start posting.

All very interesting stuff.

So, is the plan to defeat us by making us extend your identity indefinitely, NHCoraHSarah?

It ain't gonna work. Your stories are just that, stories.

Remember, the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
NHCoraHSarahOK, I was gonna ask you what we should call her now, but that'll do.

Except that Sarah is that poor little cat's name and I just can't get her out of my mind.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
OK, I was gonna ask you what we should call her now, but that'll do.

Except that Sarah is that poor little cat's name and I just can't get her out of my mind.

Rolfe.

I also have her down as another candidate for creator of pseudoBSM at Hpathy, but the motives would contradict her apparent general aims.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
I have just come here to have a look as a proponent of homeopathy. I have never visited the Hpathy forums until just a minute ago when I clicked on your link. It seems very interesting and I may well join up to start posting.

All very interesting stuff. Aw, c'mon... we don't get a creative back story to go with this latest sock? That's the funnest part of the game... seeing how long you can stick to your story.

-The concerned skeptic seeking information to save a wayward wife who was dabbling in homeopathy.

-The classically trained medical doctor who had seen the light, and converted to homeopthy.

Those were a hoot. This one...

A proponent of homeopathy.

Blah... that's just boring. Let's punch it up a little. How about...

-A mild-mannered reporter for a large metropolitan newspaper, who, disguised as Sarah-I, fights a never-ending battle for truth, justice, and the homeopathic way?

Or maybe...

-A steel town girl on a Saturday night looking for the fight of her life. You're a maniac....MANIAC!!!?

Use your imagination. I'm sure you'll come up with something.

***No sock puppets were harmed during the editing of this post... unfortunately.***

[Zep]

I-Sarah / NHCoraHS / whoever,

Here's a table of information for determining how "true" your anecdotal evidence is. Use it with my blessing:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?s=&postid=1870550878

[LostAngeles]

Zep. if I hadn't just finished my iced tea, you so would have owed me.

[Zep]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
Zep. if I hadn't just finished my iced tea, you so would have owed me. Sorry! Here, have a homeopathic iced tea...

http://www.nims.go.jp/water/images/cupwater1.gif

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by Zep
Sorry! Here, have a homeopathic iced tea...

http://www.nims.go.jp/water/images/cupwater1.gif

Some of us are trying to cut down on homeopathic caffeine. Can I get a homeopathic water?

[Benguin]

Would that mean a homeopathic decaff would have me buzzing more than a hand full of pro-plus?

[The Don]

Do you have that leather bound bible handy ? If not then I guess no

[geni]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist
So they need to prove that there is nothing in them before they can be sold?

*rimshot*

Not quite. 6X should still contain measureble quantities of the orginal substance (at a dilution of a million to one).

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist
Can I get a homeopathic water?

Wouldn't you bloat and then be at the urinal all night long? :D

[geni]

Helios sell homeopathic water

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

I realize this may not be the place to post this... but I just did not want to start another homeopathy thread -- and Benguin started this with comments about India.

Anyway, the folks at H'pathy replied back on some thread that real medicine was bad by posting the "Virusmyth" website --- a webstite that seems to think HIV and AIDS are not real or a conspiracy.

I saw this today in the Washington Post, "Rights Group Cites Bias Against India's AIDS-Affected Children":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25637-2004Jul29.html

and: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/world/main632654.shtml

(in case you do not want to register for the Washington Post).

I thought it would be interesting to note that the place where homeopathy is works is not doing so well with AIDS.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Hi Hans,

I have just seen a few of your posts at Hpathy.

Ok, that would be great. Any ideas for the craniosacral therapy too?

Well, you'll have to explain what CT is about:
Basic thesis, way of application, claims of effect.

I am genuine and serious about this by the way.

Good, so am I.

I will go and find the full references for the papers asap and will definitely post these. There is not a lot of research on the topic of craniosacral therapy. I discovered this after hours sitting in the library searching many databases for information. The few that I did manage to find, I got full references for or the full texts themselves.

Thanks [/B]Fine. Now, for the homeopathy protocol, what scope are you thinking about?

1) Single-person self-test (perhaps with some assistance from a helper). Would look fine in a study essay together with references to other studies. Estimated cost: 50$

2) Small level test with a few volunteers. Would probably suffice for an exam paper. Estimated cost: 1000$

3) Full-scale scientific protocol for publication in international peer-reviewed journals. Estimated cost: 10,000$

Note: The costs are rough estimates of the cost of carrying out each protocol. I will make protocols for any of the levels free of charge, as promised.

(I would recommend #1 before you allocate ressources for anything else, but to each her own).

Hans

[geni]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
I have read both the full text articles on Craniosacral Therapy that you have quoted. The first one is a bit out of date now, being from 1994. I have also read the other, however, I have to hand in a 10,000 word piece of research before I qualify, so to that end, I have been looking for more up to date research articles. I have found some more recent ones that show a positive result for Craniosacral therapy. These articles are from 2003 and 2004.


There are no medline indexed clincal trial that fit your description.

[Rolfe]

Is this this daft thing where that "osteopath" put the tips of her fingers on my forehead and moved them by about a millimetre (well less than the amont of play in the skin of my face anyway) while spouting off the most amazing rubbish that showed she had literally no idea at all about the actual anatomy of the actual head?

I mean, if they're going to do this stuff, shouldn't they do at least one dissection during their training? And maybe figure out the strength of the structures they're claiming to manipulate?

Dammit, if they can't get the cadavers, they could use animal bodies surely. Yesterday I had to decide whether a bite to a cat's head had caused its death. I had to get into the skull and take the brain out. It's little games like that that make you realise exactly how little effect the finger-tip movements are going to have on a human more than 10 times the weight.

Maybe she didn't like it when I left the session saying "oh it's sort of homoeopathic massage, I see."

Rolfe.

[Lisa Simpson]

I had it done a couple of weeks ago--the massage therapist wanted to try it on me to help cure my migraines--it was a light touch along either side of my neck and the knobby bones at the base of my skull. It sort of tickled, but did nothing for the migraines. The best thing about it? It was free.

[geni]

Originally posted by Rolfe

Dammit, if they can't get the cadavers, they could use animal bodies surely. Yesterday I had to decide whether a bite to a cat's head had caused its death. I had to get into the skull and take the brain out. It's little games like that that make you realise exactly how little effect the finger-tip movements are going to have on a human more than 10 times the weight.

Getting through a rat skull with a blunt scaple isn't easy either.

[Rolfe]

You need a bone saw. Seriously. James must have got a new one since the last time he went on holiday and I had to do the PMs, and it was dead easy.

So how come that cat had a tiny hole in the middle of his forehead? It was a bite abscess that was treated (as an outpatient) by being lanced, and I think the vet gave an antibiotic injection, but then we think the owners had trouble giving him his tablets. But really it shouldn't have mattered, the injury was trivial. Everybody thought.

Two days later he turned up with neurological signs, even though the abscess was healing nicely. He was admitted, put on a drip, given more antibiotics and steroids, and he died overnight. Lovely semi-longhair red non-pedigree. His owners were distraught.

So I get this body, and a set of the most impeccable case notes you've ever seen, not a foot put wrong, and just before I start the PM my office gets a phone call from another practice saying that the owner has turned up there and he wants them to handle the case from now on.

Ever felt like piggy in the middle?

Fortunately vet #1 was telling the truth when she said she had nothing to hide, she really had not only done everything right, she'd documented it too. And by the time I'd brokered the thing a bit she was getting ready to send vet #2 a bottle of wine if she could get the distraught owner off her back.

We began to think maybe the bite abscess had been a coincidence and maybe the cat had contracted toxoplasmosis or something like that. Then I found this little hole in the skull right under the bite wound.

What the heck could have done that? There was only the one injury, no sign of an opposing tooth-mark or anything. It was originally thought just to have been the usual results of the usual cat-spat. Could a cat get a canine tooth through a cat's skull? Fox, maybe?

Helluva unlucky pussycat. Death by misadventure I think.

But skulls are damn hard and damn solid.

Manipulating the cerebrospinal fluid by tiny movements of the skin over the skull? I think not.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
If this is the new, civil version of Naturalhealth, I suppose we should be delighted.

Yes, but the surface has hardly been scratched, as yet. My bet is that NHCoraHS will re-emerge once we start challenging some of the erroneous ideas.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
I had it done a couple of weeks ago--the massage therapist wanted to try it on me to help cure my migraines--it was a light touch along either side of my neck and the knobby bones at the base of my skull. It sort of tickled, but did nothing for the migraines. The best thing about it? It was free.

Then it has changed. I read something in the Skeptical Inquirer about a dozen years ago where someone was using it on kids in a school... and actually caused some harm.

(and I cannot find the reference, rats!)

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide
Then it has changed. I read something in the Skeptical Inquirer about a dozen years ago where someone was using it on kids in a school... and actually caused some harm.

(and I cannot find the reference, rats!) I think you may be referring to N.O.T. or Neural Organization Technique- Just one more bastard spawn in the legion of crackpot Chiropractic/Applied Kinesiology offshoots.

Some details:

http://www.chirobase.org/06DD/ak.html

Neural Organization Technique (NOT) includes the notion that the skull is an "extension of the spine." [17] It deserves mention because it is often directed at handicapped children. NOT's proponents claim that "blocked neural pathways" caused by misaligned skull bones can cause learning disorders, cerebral palsy, schizophrenia, Down's syndrome, colorblindness, bedwetting, nightmares, and various other problems. Its practitioners claim that "adjusting" these bones by applying pressure to various structures of the head can cure these problems. This claim is not only unsubstantiated but clashes with the fact that the bones of the skull are tightly fused by age two. NOT's originator, Carl A. Ferreri, D.C., of New York City, says he has trained hundreds of chiropractors in the use of his techniques. NOT came to public attention in 1988 when chiropractors subjected children to it in a "research" program sponsored by school officials in Del Norte County, California. For five months, dozens of children from age four to sixteen, with epilepsy, Down's syndrome, cerebral palsy, dyslexia, and various other learning disorders, were "treated" by having their skull compressed with viselike hand pressure. The children were also forced to endure painful thumb pressure against the roof of the mouth and finger pressure against their eyes. According to news reports, the children struggled, cried, and screamed as they were forcibly restrained. One reportedly experienced his first seizure when his eye sockets were "adjusted." Some of the children became violent, explosive, rebellious, uncontrollable, and lacking in self-motivation and drive [18,19]. In 1991, a jury ordered Ferreri to pay $565,000 in damages to seven children and their parents who had filed suit for physical and emotional pain related to the treatment. Two other chiropractors involved in the case settled out of court for a total of $207,000.Hey, when you get to make it up as you go along, it's inevitable that just about every kook out there is going to come up with their very own special "technique".

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Originally posted by Psiload
I think you may be referring to N.O.T. or Neural Organization ....SNIP..
Hey, when you get to make it up as you go along, it's inevitable that just about every kook out there is going to come up with their very own special "technique".

Yes, I believe you are correct. And you are also correct about them making it up as they go along.

Still, craniosacral as a technique was deemed worthless by the the organization in British Columbia that determines whether their health program should cover it.

I've explained this often to the disability listserv I participate on... there is NO way that a head massage NOR any waving of fingertips around the head is going to affect neurological damage an inch or more under the skull.

Just like magic water is not going to reduce the blood pressure differential across the mitral valve for a kid with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, nor reduce the infection from strep, nor stop tonic-clonic seizures (which may or may not have caused the neurological damage that is part of my kid's speech/language disability).

[Sarah-I]

Thanks Hans,

Could you design a protocol for 1. for me then? I have found a friend of mine who would be willing to undertake this.

There is more to cranioscral therapy than just putting your hands on someones head, a lot more. Also, Rolfe, I do know the anatomy of the skull and all its structures, but I have always found it better to view living tissue rather than cavaveric tissue.

Thanks

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Thanks Hans,

There is more to cranioscral therapy than just putting your hands on someones head, a lot more.

Thanks

So what else is there to cranio-sacral therapy? Exactly what else please, and some evidence of efficacy might be nice, too.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
So what else is there to cranio-sacral therapy? Exactly what else please, and some evidence of efficacy might be nice, too. Well, for starters there is the craniosacral "rhythm" which the therapists are supposedly able to detect. They claim it's not related to the heart or respiratory systems, and it can only be detected by a "sensitive" therapist, and not by any sort of instrumentation. I repair clinical equipment for a living, and I consider this claim to be absolutely ludicrous. Just the other day I was calibrating an electronic laboratory balance that can tell you the difference between two human eyelashes to within .0001 gram. The scale is so sensitive, it has to rest upon a quarter ton slab of granite so the vibrations of nearby footsteps don't throw it off. Show me a human that can do the equivalent of a lab balance, and maybe I'll consider the "sensitivy"claims of craniosacral therapists to be something other than a jumbo batch of wishful thinking.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=8090842&dopt=Citation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2173359&dopt=Abstract

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Psiload
Well, for starters there is the craniosacral "rhythm" which the therapists are supposedly able to detect. They claim it's not related to the heart or respiratory systems, and it can only be detected by a "sensitive" therapist, and not by any sort of instrumentation. I repair clinical equipment for a living, and I consider this claim to be absolutely ludicrous. Just the other day I was calibrating an electronic laboratory balance that can tell you the difference between two human eyelashes to within .0001 gram. The scale is so sensitive, it has to rest upon a quarter ton slab of granite so the vibrations of nearby footsteps don't throw it off. Show me a human that can do the equivalent of a lab balance, and maybe I'll consider the "sensitivy"claims of craniosacral therapists to be something other than a jumbo batch of wishful thinking.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=8090842&dopt=Citation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2173359&dopt=Abstract

Can I say "Magnetic fields" and "resonance" before Sarah does?

Thank you.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Benguin
Can I say "Magnetic fields" and "resonance" before Sarah does?

Thank you. And you may as well throw a "quantum" in there too for good measure.

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Psiload
And you may as well throw a "quantum" in there too for good measure.

bugger ... forgot that one.

Haven't mentioned 'flux' yet.

Can we play keyword bingo?

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
..There is more to cranioscral therapy than just putting your hands on someones head, a lot more. Also, Rolfe, I do know the anatomy of the skull and all its structures, but I have always found it better to view living tissue rather than cavaveric tissue.
..

So how does it affect either Broca's or Wernicke's areas of the brain? How does it repair damage due to seizures?

I've run across parents who have been convinced that it does by folks who take their money with promises of fixing their kids speech.

I found it instructive to put the work "craniosacral" in this search box: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi ... the first page has papers and letters going back to 1992... and the ones from 1995 on were not favorable.

It is a made up "therapy", just like homeopathy... which is doing great things in India for HIV/AIDS (not):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3886883.stm
and http://www.kashmirtelegraph.com/0804/seven.htm
and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25637-2004Jul29.html

I do this since this thread started about India... and because the one of the standard chants against real medicine in H'pathy was touting the "Virusmyth" website (Homeopath Syad of Pakistan), which implied homeopathy was doing a better than real medicine when it came to AIDS (see http://www.homeopathyforums.hpathy.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1716&PN=1&TPN=2 )

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Also, Rolfe, I do know the anatomy of the skull and all its structures, In that case, what makes you think that putting rather less pressure or movement on the skin of the head than is involved in washing your hair or even just running your fingers through it in despair at the nonsense some people believe, can possibly influence anybody's health?

Rolfe.

[Sarah-I]

Well, from my experience I have felt it. I have felt the changes for myself and others that I have worked on have felt these changes too. I do not just go to the head either. I work on all parts of the body that includes the cervical area, the thoracic area, the lumbar sacral area and the feet and have had some quite remarkable responses to treatments.

Perhaps you should read some of John Upledger's books. They are well worth the read and extremely scientific. He is an American DO. Also, go and check out his Institute in Palm Beach. www.upledger.com.

Perhaps you should go and get a proper treatment before deciding whether it works or not. When I say a proper treatment, I mean a practitioner who will give you a craniosacral therapy treatment exclusively and not just a massage therapist who will do predominantly massage with a little cranial work mixed in with it. This is not a proper craniosacral therapy treatment at all.

If you do it, do it properly and then decide.

The results of a proper treatment are quite amazing.

[Rolfe]

Oh, the one I went to had a BSc in it. It was my massage therapist who referred me to her. I've never heard so much BS in my life. How can anyone get a university science degree and come out with so many false beliefs about how the body works?

I'm sure the results are just as amazing as those of homoeopathy. Amazing anyone falls for it.

(Come on, NHCoraHSarah, we're been through this before. Evidence of efficacy? Controlled trials? Evidence that it's actually possible to feel anything at all of what you describe in an objective manner? Just saying that it's wonderful doesn't cut it. People thought Perkins tractors were wonderful.)

Rolfe.

[Psiload]

Sarah-I wrote:

Perhaps you should read some of John Upledger's books. They are well worth the read and extremely scientific. He is an American DO. Also, go and check out his Institute in Palm Beach. www.upledger.com.

I offer you the following selected passages form John Upledger's book CranioSacral Therapy Touchstone for Natural Healing:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1556433689/102-4628674-5264937?v=glance

By connecting deeply with a patient while doing CranioSacral Therapy, it was possible in most cases to solicit contact with the patient's Inner Physician. It also became clear that the Inner Physician could take any for m the patient could imagine -- an image, a voice or a feeling. Usually once the image of the Inner Physician appeared, it was ready to dialog with me and answer questions about the underlying causes of the patient's health problems and what can be done to resolve them. It also became clear that when the conversation with the Inner Physician was authentic, the craniosacral system went into a holding pattern Regarding "Dr." Upledger's treatment of a four-month-old French infant who was, "as floppy as a rag doll":

I requested aloud in English that the craniosacral rhythm stop if the answer to a question was "yes" and not stop if the answer was "no." The rhythm stopped for about ten seconds. I took this as an indication that I was being understood. I then asked if it was possible during this session for the rhythm to stop only in response to my question and not for other reasons, such as body position, etc., The rhythm stopped again. I was feeling more confident. I proceeded. Oh, it's certainly sounds very... something. Scientific isn't the first word that comes to mind however.

Look at some of the claims "Dr." Upledger makes in regards to his "technique":

Craniosacral therapy improves the central nervous system, strengthens resistance to disease, enhances overall health, and treats a wide range of ailments, including learning disabilities, autism, post-traumatic stress, and cancer.How about this doozy:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556434618/qid=1091535072/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-4628674-5264937

Osteopath and teacher John Upledger -- a pioneer of craniosacral therapy -- believes bodily tissues have individual memory and that traumatic memories can be stored in the body and disrupt bodily function. In Cell Talk, he shows how to treat disease and dysfunction at the cellular level by uncovering these memories and following the healing path they suggest. Anecdotes from Upledger's life and practice support his goal of facilitating self-healing. There you have it, this is what some would consider extremely scientific.

[Psiload]

Oh, brother...

I just stumbled upon this:

http://www.massagetoday.com/archives/2003/04/10.html

You've got to see this to disbelieve it:

Cell Talk
By John Upledger, DO, OMM

I helped Kayla's body break down all those blocked areas. I don't remember if it was the second or third time I saw her, but it struck me that if I could talk to organs, why couldn't I talk to immune cells? I put my hand or her thymus (a gland in the upper chest and lower throat that's responsible for directing and producing immune cells) and said, "Thymus, will you talk with me?"

I said to Kayla, "Just let the voice of your thymus come through. Don't censor it or change it or feel obligated to answer. Just go with whatever comes." Immediately, "Yes" came through from the thymus.

I said, "Thymus, I think there are viruses hidden around in this body that are so clever, you might need my help to find them. Would you be willing to send a whole bunch of monocytes and macrophages (types of immune cells) to the places where I put my hand?"

"Yes."

It seemed best to send a unique signature energy that was just mine, so I said, "Can you tell that this is my energy?"

"Yes." It goes on like this.

Classic. :D

I am Psiload's raging bile duct.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Perhaps you should read some of John Upledger's books. They are well worth the read and extremely scientific.

O, right, NHCoraHSarah, at all.

O, now we've had some time to digest these little nuggets of Mr Upledger can you explain what is so scientific about it? Were you just not paying attention when people discussed the scientific basis of medicine while you were a nurse? at all

O, I think what would be very interesting to all of us is an answer to the perennial question of how someone can go through a modern medical education then latch on to this pseudo stuff. Why have you been convinced by it? at all

[Rolfe]

It's back to the question I was asking earlier in the thread. How can anyone who has a decent basic education in biology possibly believe a word of this nonsense? As Corallinus, Sarah demonstrated a fair knowledge of physiology. How is it possible to reconcile that knowledge with either believing that content-free sugar pills are physiologically active, or that it's possible to talk to somebody's thymus?

And what definition of "scientific" does Upledger's mystical ravings come under? If this is what NHCoraHSarah thinks is scientific, I fear we may not have much of a dialogue here.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
It's back to the question I was asking earlier in the thread. How can anyone who has a decent basic education in biology possibly believe a word of this nonsense? As Corallinus, Sarah demonstrated a fair knowledge of physiology. How is it possible to reconcile that knowledge with either believing that content-free sugar pills are physiologically active, or that it's possible to talk to somebody's thymus?

O don't tell anyone else, but remember it's a great way for someone who can't get into medical school to gratify their desire to play doctor. All it takes is that you leave your critical faculties at the door when you walk into the woo-zone and you'll be 'helping' people in no time at all, at all.

[Rolfe]

O sorry, BSM, didn't see your post before I posted mine.

Nurses can get to play doctor almost legitimately if they want to. Badly, by training as a nurse practitioner and then being totally unable to cope with diagnosis, or well, by training as a specialist nurse working directly with patients with a specific condition, like diabetes or asthma. And hospital nurses (which Sarah said she was) usually have quite a lot of responsibility.

So she didn't need to go woo to be in a reasonably responsible para-medical position. This doesn't really explain it for me.

She came up with some perfectly sensible physiological knowledge. How can she retain that and the great steaming heaps of woo that are homoeopathy and cranial osteopathy in one mind at the same time?

I have a sort of theory that it might be simple lack of critical thinking skills. Someone stands up and tells them stuff in physiology class and they believe it and learn it. Then later, someone stands up in cranial osteopathy class or homoeopathy class and tells them stuff, and they believe that just as uncritically.

Why should a sensible student believe one lot and challenge the other?

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
I have a sort of theory that it might be simple lack of critical thinking skills. Someone stands up and tells them stuff in physiology class and they believe it and learn it. Then later, someone stands up in cranial osteopathy class or homoeopathy class and tells them stuff, and they believe that just as uncritically.

Why should a sensible student believe one lot and challenge the other?

I think that's right, which is why that nonsense of Upledger's can be called 'scientific': it contains scientificky words.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
I think that's right, which is why that nonsense of Upledger's can be called 'scientific': it contains scientificky words.

I'd say Upledger lacks some critical thinking skills if he really thinks he can talk to someone's thymus gland.

When I had the cranio-sacral therapy recently, my cranial blood vessels must have been incommunicado since it didn't work. Lousy cranial blood vessels!

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Also, Rolfe, .... I have always found it better to view living tissue rather than cavaveric tissue.Just noticed this one. How scary is that? Is she into brain surgery now? :eek:

Naturalhealth, do you seriously think you can understand the anatomy of the head (or any other body part) without seeing inside it? Do you really see no relevance in looking closely at the very bones themselves that you're claiming to manipulate, without their covering of skin?

Do you understand that the skull sutures you're claiming to be able to move are solidly, irrevocably fused in adolescence? Yes, in life as well as in cadaver material? Do you understand that washing your hair, or scratching your head, or even wearing a hat or a headscarf put more force on the skull than cranial osteopathy?

Do you realise that these light tickles on the head have no possibility whatsoever of doing anything the body is even going to notice?

If not, you really need to do some serious dissection.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

It might be useful to be reminded as to NHCoraHSarah's complete cluelessness as to what constitutes science.

http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//forum_posts.asp?TID=1076&KW=kidney+failure&PN=0&TPN=7

"Mr Obvious
Newbie



Joined: 26Â_MarchÂ_04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1


Posted: 26Â_MarchÂ_04 at 22:52 | IP Logged
Â_




Bmw,



Your entire point falls down because its not that hard to actually measure if people get better or they don't.



Its very simple: You have a group of sick people (your choice of group), you divide them into 2 groups, you treat one with homeopathy, the other you treat exactly the same but give them water (!!!!) instead of homeopathic remedy. Then you see if there is any difference between the two groups in recovery from their illness.



And no there isn't a difference.



Back to Top


Â_

Naturalhealth
Senior Member



Joined: 08Â_MarchÂ_04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 402


Posted: 26Â_MarchÂ_04 at 23:25 | IP Logged
...

O, this is where your argument falls down - take two groups and give one group the indicated and correct homepathic remedy and they will recover within 24 hours. Do not treat the other group and it will take them a lot longer to recover.

Your FACTS are incorrect. Opinions are yours but FACTS are not. Get these straight before you post again.

... "

So, she already knows the answer based on her presumption that homeopaty works and this invaldiates any test of it because she knows the homeopathically treated group will get better quicker.

If you look back through that thread you find her making very bold claims about homeopathy allegedly being able to "cure" kidney failure then seeming to reach for the dog-ate-her-homework tactic when asked to come up with some evidence to back up this fantastical assertion. Apparently we should all be e-mailing some Indian quack, but she herself can't quite come up with any evidence to show us. Funny that, yet it was she who made the wild claim.

Also she makes a lot of claims to have cured people and to be in possession of several different homeopatic qualifications, but here she's back to being a third year student of homeopathy. So, she lies to other homeopath apologists, very commendable...not.

O, "Sarah", do you care to defend the nonsense you spout, at all?

[Psiload]

I did it. It wasn't easy. It was downright painful, but I did it.

I slogged my way through each and every article written by Upledger:

http://www.massagetoday.com/columnists/upledger/articles.html

Each one was wackier than the one before. I can only marvel that there exists a mind that could construe this lunacy as "scientific". The man is a case study in pathological delusion.

Here are a few of my favorites:

My Dolphin Mentor

During the morning of my second day there, I was working with a young boy who had suffered from cerebral palsy since birth. I encountered a very strong resistance to physiological motion in his head. This resistance was in the horizontal component of the intracranial membrane system (the dura mater of the tentorium cerebelli). Since I was working in a train-of-thought mode, I said aloud, "I'm going to use some dolphin energy here." The therapeutic energy input increased significantly at this time.Dolphin energy? :con2:

The Consciousness of Organ Transplants

Unless the therapist is in a strong state of denial, he or she has felt the energy of emotions that reside in these tissues There you have it... anyone who doesn't buy into the "energy of emotions" theory must be in denial.

Magnets: A Cause for Pause

For a simple example of how we are affected by subtle changes in the earth's magnetic field, consider what happens during a full moon: some people report experiencing irrational thoughts or malaise. The ol' full moon myth.

The man is certifiable.
:jaw:

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Psiload
The man is certifiable.


Nah, he was just dropped on his head as a baby. Unfortunately he later heard his mother lying to a social worker saying that she had just been giving his skull a light massage and 'Bingo' a whole new field of woo is born.