Is Magic OK For Christians?

[Radrook]

The biblical answer is a resounding NO!



Acts 19
19And many of those who had practiced curious, magical arts collected their books and [throwing them, [1] book after book, on the pile] burned them in the sight of everybody. When they counted the value of them, they found it amounted to 50,000 pieces of silver ([2] about $9,300).

AMP


In the inspired book of Revelation Saint John tells us that the practice of magic is grouped right along with murder sexual immorality, cowardice, idolatry, lying and theft.

Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.



Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."



Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


NIV


Ever wonder WHY GOD takes such a dim view of attempts at magic? There are good reasons.

[Benguin]

What's a miracle?

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Radrook
Ever wonder WHY GOD takes such a dim view of attempts at magic? There are good reasons.

Assumes facts not in evidence. If you had asked, 'Ever wonder why the writers and editors of these texts take such a dim view or attempts at magic?' I would have answered, "No, I never much cared."

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Benguin
What's a miracle?

You are missing the whole point.
Jesus, Moses, Peter, and others performed miracles and they were not condemned because the SOURCE of the power was God. It is not the miracle itself that is offensive.


Exodus 7:21
The fish in the river died, and the water became so foul that the Egyptians couldn't drink it. There was blood everywhere throughout the land of Egypt.

22
But again the magicians of Egypt used their secret arts, and they, too, turned water into blood.....

Obviously it wasn't God who was empowering the magicians to imitate on a limited scale. It was something sinister.

So it is the SOURCE of the power from whence it comes that is offensive.

Miracles are used by demons to deceive.
That's why Jesus said that though certain people who clsimed to be Christians performed great works, he still rejected them and called them lawless or evildoers.

Matthew 7
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Obviously if these people were evildoers, and were still able to perform miracles, then the source of their power for their miracles was evil. In fact, demons were even cooperating by feigning being cast out in order to convince people that these evildoers were good.

The Devil is like Organized crime.
He hides behind a respectable front in order to operate efficiently.

Thus the Wicca and other such fronts have emerged.


The magic practicing priests of Egypt were able to imitate Moses up to a certain point. The source of their power was evil. S

So they are condemned while Moses is not.

Because there are forces out there striving to deceive us--we are told not to delve into such things for our own safety.

Does that clear it up a little?

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
Assumes facts not in evidence. If you had asked, 'Ever wonder why the writers and editors of these texts take such a dim view or attempts at magic?' I would have answered, "No, I never much cared."

I am aware that this place is crawling with Wiccans, skeptics, atheists, agnostics, and Satanists. So I am not at all expecting agreement.

I am just expressing.
I hope you don't mind.


BTW
Actually, God's hatred of witchcraft goes back before the Christian arrived as is evident by the following declarations:


2 Kings 9:22
When Joram saw Jehu he asked, "Have you come in peace, Jehu?" "How can there be peace," Jehu replied, "as long as all the idolatry and witchcraft of your mother Jezebel abound?"



2 Chronicles 33:6
He sacrificed his sons in [ 33:6 Or [ He made his sons pass through ] ] the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD , provoking him to anger.

Micah 5:12
I will destroy your witchcraft and you will no longer [b]cast spells.

Nahum 3:4
all because of the wanton lust of a harlot, alluring, the mistress of sorceries, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her witchcraft.

NIV

So you see, when Christianity arrived it was the same God repeating what he had already been saying for thousands of years.

[Benguin]

Well I was just asking for clarification.

I'm sure you'll understand that from my perspective it is all just magic (ie, paranormal or trickery). But thanks for pointing out how you differentiate.

Would it be impossible for any of these wicca to perform magic equitable with moses should be coherent with an aim or cause you have sympathy with?

[Skeptical Greg]

The source of their power was evil. And we all know who created evil, don't we?

[Scot C. Trypal]

Sure you could say that God was the source for his followers, but, correct me if I’m wrong, I think witches feel the same way about their god(s).

If a pagan has supernatural power from invoking their god(s), and a Christian does too, how do you call one magic and the other not?

I mean, Moses strikes a rock with a stick and water flows out. As you said, he performs miracles right along with pharos’s magicians (On an aside Radrook, do you think pagan witches, if skilled enough, can today do stuff like turn rivers into blood as they do in Exodus?). Samson has hair that gives him strength. Balaam talks with his donkey. Jesus spits in a man’s eyes and his blindness is cured. Those with strong faith are to be able to do all sorts of supernatural acts from resisting poison to a sort of tree telekinesis ;). All this to me, a person who doesn’t believe in Christianity or Wicca, falls into the category of magic.

In this way, though I'd think it odd, isn't there room left for Christian "witches" who perform their miracles with God as their source?

[Wolrab]

Why bother asking the question?

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Benguin
Well I was just asking for clarification.

I'm sure you'll understand that from my perspective it is all just magic (ie, paranormal or trickery). But thanks for pointing out how you differentiate.

Would it be impossible for any of these wicca to perform magic equitable with Moses should be coherent with an aim or cause you have sympathy with?

I understand that others have different perspectives and I respect everyone's right to decide what or what not he will or will not believe. I also do appreciate the calm logical inquiry you submit about whether those practicing magic can perform miracles with God's power. From a Christian viewpoint the answer must be no.

Why?
Because God does not work through those who do things contrary to his clear instructions. Since he clearly instructs us not to practice the magical arts, then to do so is disobedience. God takes a very dim view of disobedience to clear instructions.


King Saul lost his kingship because was repeatedly disobedient. He refused to listen to military instructions. He did not wait for Samuel to arrive in order to offer sacrifice but offered it up himself. Later after his kingship was lost anyway, he compounded his error by consulting a spirit medium.

Saul was never forgiven for it.

Samuel 15:22
But Samuel replied: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.


This obedience requirement is still in effect.
Jesus told us that if we love him we will obey what he tells us to do.

John 14:15
"If you love me, you will obey what I command.

We are also told tat those receiving the holy spirit through which miracles are performed are persons who are obedient to God .

Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

So based on all these factors, I am forced to say the answer is no.

[thaiboxerken]

LOL. This is silly. It's like a discussion on the proper use of the Force.. what exactly is Dark usage vs. Light usage.

[MRC_Hans]

Radrook: Provide evidence for your point without citing the bible.

Hans

[Brahe]

Originally posted by Radrook
Ever wonder WHY GOD takes such a dim view of attempts at magic? There are good reasons.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that god does take a dim view of attempts at magic. Let's hear those good reasons. When I've asked Christians before, they usually respond with one of the following:

(1) It just is, stop asking questions and accept my assertions uncritically! Ah, good ol' christianity.com.

(2) The source of magic is Satan. This assumes magic is nothing more than a prayer to Satan. Which is ironic, considering that nearly all Christians will vehmently oppose the characterization of prayer as "magic."

(3) Magic is inherently evil. This is truly a bizarre answer as magic is depicted as nothing more than a tool that is morally neutral by itself. Our knowledge of chemistry can also be used to make bombs and bullets, but it'd be difficult to find someone stupid enough to characterize chemistry as inherently evil and thus against god, so why should magic be characterized this way?

One more related question, Radrook: what do you think of the efficacy of magic? When I've asked this question of Christians before, few of them believe that it works (and thus do not believe god has much view at all on the subject). Those that do are unwilling and unable to produce evidence supporting this claim, and fall back on, "if magic didn't work, then why would god oppose it?" So what's your position on the issue?

[thaiboxerken]

I think mutants should have to register with the government because their superpowers are inherently evil!!

[Brahe]

Originally posted by Radrook
I also do appreciate the calm logical inquiry you submit about whether those practicing magic can perform miracles with God's power. From a Christian viewpoint the answer must be no.
Is anyone capable of performing miracles with god's power? What is the difference between performing miracles with god's power and magic?

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
I think mutants should have to register with the government because their superpowers are inherently evil!!

I agreed with this when I thought you said "mullets" instead of "mutants".

People with mullets should be required to register. Mutants, so far as they are a different class, I don't know.

So nevermind.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
LOL. This is silly. It's like a discussion on the proper use of the Force.. what exactly is Dark usage vs. Light usage.

:D :D :D

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Brahe
... but it'd be difficult to find someone stupid enough to characterize chemistry as inherently evil and thus against god, so why should magic be characterized this way?

Amish.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Radrook
You are missing the whole point.
Jesus, Moses, Peter, and others performed miracles and they were not condemned because the SOURCE of the power was God. It is not the miracle itself that is offensive.


Exodus 7:21
The fish in the river died, and the water became so foul that the Egyptians couldn't drink it. There was blood everywhere throughout the land of Egypt.

22
But again the magicians of Egypt used their secret arts, and they, too, turned water into blood.....

Obviously it wasn't God who was empowering the magicians to imitate on a limited scale. It was something sinister.

So it is the SOURCE of the power from whence it comes that is offensive.

Miracles are used by demons to deceive.
That's why Jesus said that though certain people who clsimed to be Christians performed great works, he still rejected them and called them lawless or evildoers.

Matthew 7
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Obviously if these people were evildoers, and were still able to perform miracles, then the source of their power for their miracles was evil. In fact, demons were even cooperating by feigning being cast out in order to convince people that these evildoers were good.

The Devil is like Organized crime.
He hides behind a respectable front in order to operate efficiently.

Thus the Wicca and other such fronts have emerged.


The magic practicing priests of Egypt were able to imitate Moses up to a certain point. The source of their power was evil. S

So they are condemned while Moses is not.

Because there are forces out there striving to deceive us--we are told not to delve into such things for our own safety.

Does that clear it up a little?


Ooops Radrook, you just fell for the classic dualitic trap, perhaps unknowing.

A. The devil is as powerful as god.

B. The devil recieves his power from god.

C. God wishes for humans to fail and therefore puts obstacles in thier way.

D. God does not care about what the devil does.

E. God wants the devil to do what he does.

These are just some thoughts about the inherent nature of dualism, in option A. the devil becomes as powerful as god, not a very good idea. Then why doesn't god stop the devil.

B> God wants the devil to decieve people and therefore gives the devil the power to do so.

C> God may want us to love him of our own free will but testing people's love is the hall mark of an abusive personality. Asking people to not have sex and then making it so pleasurable , that is a barrier to enligytenment.

D> This gets god off the hook, maybe he doesn't care what people think or believe and tehre is no heaven or hell. So maybe god is indifferent to the evil caused by the devil

E> Goes along with the devil recieving his power from god.


The simple solution is there, god creates the universe but refuses to interfere after that.

All other solution end up making god so weak that he can't defend himself from the devil, or uncaring or deliberatly abusive.

Gnosticism is born, the god of Jesus is not the god of the OT.

[Blue Monk]

Boy, this is a dumb thread so naturally I have to throw in my two cents.

There’s no such thing as magic.

Problem solved.

That is unless you mean to imply that God really hates parlor tricks.

[chance]

Radrook Ever wonder WHY GOD takes such a dim view of attempts at magic? There are good reasons. How would the likes of Sylvia Brown, John Edwards, etc be classified i.e. would they be considered to be performing magical acts?

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Blue Monk
Boy, this is a dumb thread so naturally I have to throw in my two cents.

There’s no such thing as magic.

Problem solved.

That is unless you mean to imply that God really hates parlor tricks.

Uhmm.. no such thing as gods either. Problem solved twice.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Uhmm.. no such thing as gods either. Problem solved twice.

Hehe.

So the question is, "Does an imaginary being hate an imaginary power?"

Well, that certainly is food for thought indeed.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Piscivore
Amish.

You may be right but I think you are mistaken. I thought the Amish reluctance to adapt technology had more to do with the social implications.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
You may be right but I think you are mistaken. I thought the Amish reluctance to adapt technology had more to do with the social implications.

I probably am incorrect.

[Lothian]

It is wrong to say the bible does not support magic.

from acts
1:9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, Jesus spread his arms and rose from the ground.

1:10
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two scantily dressed women stood by next to him in white apparel holding a woven screen.

1:11
As he floated there They said, Ye men of Galilee, this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1:12
They two assistants carried forth the raised screen to obscure Jesus. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

1:13
And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

1:14
These all continued with one accord that they all agreed the balducci levitation had never been better performed

[Kitty Chan]

OK question I remember way back maybe 70ish the the Magicians union or whatever they are called officially announced that they are removing themselves from the "black arts" or witchcraft or ? and that they were just entertainers.

I did think that did make sense as David Blaine, John Edwards, Ole Sylvia, Penn and Teller all there stuff is simply tricks it is not actual magic.

Does anybody remember this announcement or whatever it was called?

I remember when David Blaine was doing his stuff and everybody was ooooo hes got the devils powers, nah hes just a really good showman that has ;) nothing up his sleeve.

But Radrook is expressing the difference between a christian and a for instance wicca view. Perhaps one day there will be actual events that are not staged. But I expect and hope JREF will be right in there to determine if its "real" and if true then they will be out that million.

Battle of the ages stuff :D

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

LOL. This is silly. It's like a discussion on the proper use of the Force.. what exactly is Dark usage vs. Light usage. Depends on what you intend to get out of it, and which side of yourself you appeal to.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Blue Monk
Boy, this is a dumb thread so naturally I have to throw in my two cents.

There’s no such thing as magic.

Problem solved.

That is unless you mean to imply that God really hates parlor tricks.

What about "Magic" as in the card game?

Can Xians play that?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Blue Monk

Hehe.

So the question is, "Does an imaginary being hate an imaginary power?"

Well, that certainly is food for thought indeed. Well imagine that. ;)

[Ladewig]

Brahe
One more related question, Radrook: what do you think of the efficacy of magic? When I've asked this question of Christians before, few of them believe that it works (and thus do not believe god has much view at all on the subject). Those that do are unwilling and unable to produce evidence supporting this claim, and fall back on, "if magic didn't work, then why would god oppose it?" So what's your position on the issue?

Yeah. What Brahe said.

[thaiboxerken]

Since when does Rad actually answer questions that are challenging to his silly beliefs?

[dmarker]

Sorry but prayers in an attempt to change me from an atheist to a believer is still mind control magic.

And what you are saying is that all Wiccans are murderers, is that right?


Originally posted by Radrook
The biblical answer is a resounding NO!



Acts 19
19And many of those who had practiced curious, magical arts collected their books and [throwing them, [1] book after book, on the pile] burned them in the sight of everybody. When they counted the value of them, they found it amounted to 50,000 pieces of silver ([2] about $9,300).

AMP


In the inspired book of Revelation Saint John tells us that the practice of magic is grouped right along with murder sexual immorality, cowardice, idolatry, lying and theft.

Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.



Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."



Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


NIV


Ever wonder WHY GOD takes such a dim view of attempts at magic? There are good reasons.

[Marquis de Carabas]

IS magic OK for Christians?

Well, I never thought it was magic, but I guess OK could be for Christians. VA is still for lovers, though.

[thaiboxerken]

Is using the Force OK for christians?

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
VA is still for lovers, though. [/B]

You are badly mistaken about Virginia. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29660)

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Is using the Force OK for christians?

What if they are Christian Libertarians? Would initiation of The Force be right out?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by Suddenly
You are badly mistaken about Virginia. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29660)
Hey, don't blame me. I just mindlessly accept what the commercials tell me. Now excuse me while I chew this stick of gum and wait for the scantily clad females to descend upon me en masse.

[Virgil]

I've known some Xtians that think stage magic (think Randi) is the work of the devil.


Virgil

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Is using the Force OK for christians?
No. The Force is Satanic, as exposed here (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1008.html)
The relevant passage from that link:

All occultists, including Freemasons, Illuminists, and Satanists, teach that God is not a person, or a being; rather, he is a "Force". The movie which did most to popularize this Satanic concept is the movie, "Star Wars", where Black Magic duel White Magic, both of whom were using the "Force" to try to win the war. The phrase, "May the Force Be With You" was on everyone's lips after that movie. This is classic witchcraft, and yet, most Americans are not aware.

[BobM]

So.. wait.. God hates people who pull rabbits out of hats?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Wait. Are these cud-chewing rabbits we're talking about?

[zakur]

Magic is not OK for Christians. How do I know this? Jack Chick tells me so.

[Z]

Assuming magic to be real:

The Christian (Judaic, Muslim) God says magic is OK, IF He is the Source of the Magic. Otherwise, it is wrong.

This implies that magic can come from other sources. If so, what sources are these?

The Christian and Muslim implies that the alternate source of magic is the Devil - thus, not OK.

The earliest Judaic view was that power could come from other Gods in God's pantheon. Since the Jewish God is notoriously jealous, this is not OK.

However, since the majority of non-Abrahamist faiths either claim there are a) multiple gods, b) one God with many, many faces, or c) no gods at all, then this relegates the argument into a different slant.

To those believing in multiple Gods, it is OK for a follower of the Christian God to do magic if the Christian God tells them to, but not OK if they do it on their own- after all, they would then be required to draw power from a different God. However, the same view is then held by each group based instead on their own God. A strict Zeusian would believe he could only perform magic using Zeus' power, but would be wrong to draw on YHWH as a source.

To those who believes God is one God with many faces, the argument is silly, as all Magic stems from the power of God - unless we suggest that power can stem from an individual's own power, in which case we have to wonder why we would have the power to do magic if it were against God's driect will. But, even in this case, the argument could stand, since God is saying, "Use your power if I direct, otherwise you're wrong."

To those who do not believe in God, the argument is moot, since no God exists to make such an edict.

For the modern Wiccan, numerous views as to the nature of Deity (Deities) exist. My own path, the Correllian Nativist Tradition, holds that there is only one Deity, but that this Deity is revealed through many faces, like facets of a diamond. Thus, when a Wiccan calls upon Diana in one ritual, and Il in another, and Jupiter in a third, she is still calling upon the same Deity. She sees no problem with Christians performing magic, or anyone else for that matter. The argument from the Bible becomes moot, because all magic comes from Deity. (And, the Devil doesn't exist, to most forms of Wicca - thus, he cannot be a source of power.)

Therefore, the argument from the Christian (Jewish, Muslim) standpoint involves a denial for the follower from practicing unauthorized magic, but really makes no notes against those who do not follow God and their behaviour, since one expects that the person who does not follow God is also not likely to follow God's specific instructions. To then persecute those who do not follow God's instructions, who are also not followers of God, denotes a specific form of bigotry, and is a means of hate propogation.

This then brings in the ethics of forcing others to follow your own faith. What does the Bible say about forcing other people to become Christians, Rad? This becomes the pivotal point in this argument, after all else is considered.

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Blue Monk
Boy, this is a dumb thread so naturally I have to throw in my two cents.

There’s no such thing as magic.

Problem solved.

That is unless you mean to imply that God really hates parlor tricks.

That's as far as your brain takes you?

[Radrook]

Originally posted by Dancing David
Ooops Radrook, you just fell for the classic dualitic trap, perhaps unknowing.

A. The devil is as powerful as god.

B. The devil recieves his power from god.

C. God wishes for humans to fail and therefore puts obstacles in thier way.

D. God does not care about what the devil does.

E. God wants the devil to do what he does.

These are just some thoughts about the inherent nature of dualism, in option A. the devil becomes as powerful as god, not a very good idea. Then why doesn't god stop the devil.

B> God wants the devil to decieve people and therefore gives the devil the power to do so.

C> God may want us to love him of our own free will but testing people's love is the hall mark of an abusive personality. Asking people to not have sex and then making it so pleasurable , that is a barrier to enligytenment.

D> This gets god off the hook, maybe he doesn't care what people think or believe and tehre is no heaven or hell. So maybe god is indifferent to the evil caused by the devil

E> Goes along with the devil recieving his power from god.


The simple solution is there, god creates the universe but refuses to interfere after that.

All other solution end up making god so weak that he can't defend himself from the devil, or uncaring or deliberatly abusive.

Gnosticism is born, the god of Jesus is not the god of the OT.


I was expressing the Christian viewpoint.
I never denied the existence of other viewpoints.
Neither was I trying to sway you to abandon yours and adopt mine. Why do you folks interprete every statement as a challenge to your world views?

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
OK question I remember way back maybe 70ish the the Magicians union or whatever they are called officially announced that they are removing themselves from the "black arts" or witchcraft or ? and that they were just entertainers.

I did think that did make sense as David Blaine, John Edwards, Ole Sylvia, Penn and Teller all there stuff is simply tricks it is not actual magic.

Does anybody remember this announcement or whatever it was called?

I remember when David Blaine was doing his stuff and everybody was ooooo hes got the devils powers, nah hes just a really good showman that has ;) nothing up his sleeve.

But Radrook is expressing the difference between a christian and a for instance wicca view. Perhaps one day there will be actual events that are not staged. But I expect and hope JREF will be right in there to determine if its "real" and if true then they will be out that million.

Battle of the ages stuff :D

Im gonna quote me again :D

doesnt anyone know the answer to this or do I need to look in Virginia?? Im gonna go pout and post this in the magicians threads . . . .

[Ladewig]

I was expressing the Christian viewpoint.
I never denied the existence of other viewpoints.
Neither was I trying to sway you to abandon yours and adopt mine.

Why do you folks interprete every statement as a challenge to your world views?


You started a new thread in a forum devoted to discussing religion and philosophy from a skeptical point of view. You have participated in this forum long enough to know that all posters are challenged to provide evidence for their viewpoints. When asked to do things like clarify your position (Radrook: what do you think of the efficacy of magic?) you either ignore the question or claim we are misinterpreting your position as a challenge.


I have been a member since late 2001 and you, Radrook, are the very first poster to make my ignore list. Have fun with your Christianity and buh-bye. If I ever respond to one of your posts again, I will invite everyone on the board to address me as "Mr. Poopyhead" for one year.

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Radrook
I was expressing the Christian viewpoint.
I never denied the existence of other viewpoints.
Neither was I trying to sway you to abandon yours and adopt mine. Why do you folks interprete every statement as a challenge to your world views?

You assume that you speak for all Christians when I suspect many would be mortified by many of your posts.

And this thread is a clear response to assertions that Christians attempt to use magic when they pray.

I'll ask you directly, Rad. When Christians say that they are going to pray so God will change my mind about my atheism are they attempting to subvert my free will with divine magic?

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Radrook
That's as far as your brain takes you?

Is there anything more to add? Magic and gods don't exist, what's the point in arguing if a god likes or dislikes magic? Are you trying to figure out how a god would act in your roleplaying game or something?

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by dmarker
You assume that you speak for all Christians when I suspect many would be mortified by many of your posts.

And this thread is a clear response to assertions that Christians attempt to use magic when they pray.

I'll ask you directly, Rad. When Christians say that they are going to pray so God will change my mind about my atheism are they attempting to subvert my free will with divine magic?

If ya want I will answer but I can wait for Rad, curious myself

[dmarker]

Originally posted by dmarker
You assume that you speak for all Christians when I suspect many would be mortified by many of your posts.

And this thread is a clear response to assertions that Christians attempt to use magic when they pray.

I'll ask you directly, Rad. When Christians say that they are going to pray so God will change my mind about my atheism are they attempting to subvert my free will with divine magic?




Originally posted by Kitty Chan
If ya want I will answer but I can wait for Rad, curious myself

You'd better answer for him, for Rad cannot answer.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by dmarker
Originally posted by dmarker
You assume that you speak for all Christians when I suspect many would be mortified by many of your posts.

And this thread is a clear response to assertions that Christians attempt to use magic when they pray.

I'll ask you directly, Rad. When Christians say that they are going to pray so God will change my mind about my atheism are they attempting to subvert my free will with divine magic?

You'd better answer for him, for Rad cannot answer.

Im trying to get some paperwork done today too but I will answer quick, ya got me tied up on the other thread;)

There is no magic mind control if I pray for you, especially on my part. I could ask God to speak to you about being a atheist and that is probably something He would want me to do so therefore in His will but there is the other side of how He would talk to you and show you something.

What would that be ?dont know, maybe a sunset would get to you, maybe the old guy on the bus may something to give you pause. But what would happen . . . .say the old guy says something and gets you to thinking about a possibility that maybe there is something to God not the junk yapped at you by tv preachers but something that is a actual consideration of a thought, then God has spoken to you.

Then you are gonna chew it over in your head and decide if you like the idea or whatever it is and decide one way or another about it.

No mind control because the ultimate decision on any idea is yours.

Everybody gets God mixed up in magic and Hes not otherwise He would just go ping and you would be a yes man. He dont want yes men He wants a guy that chews it over and struggles with the thought and decides finally to follow what God wrote in the scriptures.

From what was said in Matthew in the other thread if one believes in Christ its not sunshine and lollypops from the rest of the world, even your own spouse could hate you. I know a muslim woman who hides her christian beliefs as she is afraid of her husband.

[dmarker]

You don't have to answer this one quickly for I'm going away soon and it will be a day or two before I can read your response so take some time to ponder your words.

You are asking God to speak to me?

The thing is that you're asking god to alter my mind so I would see a sunset or hear an old guy's words differently.

And if I get to decide, then why pray? I've been an atheist for two thirds of my life and I doubt that a sunset would make me change my mind.

For the apostles, yes, but what do you have to fear now that most of North America is Christian?

It's the atheists that are being told to sit down and shut up.


Originally posted by Kitty Chan
Im trying to get some paperwork done today too but I will answer quick, ya got me tied up on the other thread;)

There is no magic mind control if I pray for you, especially on my part. I could ask God to speak to you about being a atheist and that is probably something He would want me to do so therefore in His will but there is the other side of how He would talk to you and show you something.

What would that be ?dont know, maybe a sunset would get to you, maybe the old guy on the bus may something to give you pause. But what would happen . . . .say the old guy says something and gets you to thinking about a possibility that maybe there is something to God not the junk yapped at you by tv preachers but something that is a actual consideration of a thought, then God has spoken to you.

Then you are gonna chew it over in your head and decide if you like the idea or whatever it is and decide one way or another about it.

No mind control because the ultimate decision on any idea is yours.

Everybody gets God mixed up in magic and Hes not otherwise He would just go ping and you would be a yes man. He dont want yes men He wants a guy that chews it over and struggles with the thought and decides finally to follow what God wrote in the scriptures.

From what was said in Matthew in the other thread if one believes in Christ its not sunshine and lollypops from the rest of the world, even your own spouse could hate you. I know a muslim woman who hides her christian beliefs as she is afraid of her husband.

[Brahe]

Originally posted by Brahe
One more related question, Radrook: what do you think of the efficacy of magic?
Radrook, I'm still interested in hearing an answer to this question. Please feel free to let me know your position on this issue! Also, what are those "good reasons" that supports god's dim view of magic you mentioned earlier?

[Kitty Chan]

If I Was to pray it would be that the Lord would speak to you and show you Himself that the possibility exists that He is there.

Sure He could go ahead and do it without my asking.

But thats not His point with me, He wants me to be concerned about you not myself. So thats why He would want me to ask Him.

I ask but I have no idea how He will speak to you, a easy one is something dramatic happens in your life. And you think there should be something else to it.

Or possibly something as simple as the old guy on the bus talks to you and something about what he says gets you to thinking about the possibility of maybe God is there.

But even if you do really deeply consider the possibility (then God has spoken to you) then its what you do with it is your decsion.

These are all possibilities that I can think of how a prayer would work. There is no mind control because the ultimate decision is yours.

maybe that is clearer I think perhaps Im too abstract sometimes.

[Bubbles]

Regarding the prayer discussion, I would argue the following:

Prayer does not change God's will, but rather fulfills it. It is not that God had decided to do A and, when you brought it up, decided instead to do B (very anthropomorphic), but rather that God wills to do B and wills that someone's intercessory prayer should be part of the process. In truth, while intercessory prayer can be difficult to rationally accept, it is really no worse than action. There is no good reason that, if God wishes the hungry to be fed, he should need my help.

I think the question of whether praying for a conversion for someone else is a prayer for the altering of someone's mind misses a key destinction. Not every influence is a subversion of free will. I am a graduate student (just starting). I expect to learn a great deal in the next few years. Each of my professors will lead me to see things differently, to understand things differently, and to think different thoughts. They are not, however, subverting my free will. They are educating me. I think the difference to be a very important one. I believe Kitty Chan is asking God to do something far more similar to education than to mind control.

As for magic, I think that the problem from a Christian perspective would be something like this:

Every interaction can be seen as a circle. The interaction can be a sacrament, a circle that begins with God, passes through the thing interacted with (lunch, a person on the street, whatever), to oneself, and returns to God. In this the thing is appreciated first for God's sake, second for its own sake, and lastly for one's own sake.

The second option I would term idolatry. In it, the circle begins with oneself, passes through the object, and returns to oneself. In this interaction, the thing is valued primarilly for ones own sake. This path is, seen next to the other, autotheism.

Magic as Wiccans practice it (as a understand Wicca, which isn't well), really is far more sacramental than idolatrous. I would argue that magic would be wrong from a Christian perspective when it becomes idolatrous: when it ceases to reverence the transcendent and instead sees the only value of things in their usefullness.

[Silicon]

Bubbles, and kittychan,

Very insightful. Thanks for sharing. I'll have to think on that circle of sacrament. I find that very poetic.


I think that my questions that would follow Bubbles' comments would be off-topic in a way. But since this is the first salient point I've seen in this thread, I guess I'm not really trashing it.


The default Skeptical question at this point would be, Bubbles, do you believe magic to exist, and can you show it to actually exist? After all, why argue the properties, causes and effects of a force which doesn't exist? You might as well argue about the mating habits of unicorns.

But besides the default Skeptic question, as I understand idolatry, it's not that people who follow idols have no sense of what you call "the transcendent". The problem with it, as far as JudeoChristianity holds, is that it allows for the adherant to fashion gods at will, from wood or stone or gold. It is a polytheism borne of the power that a carved image holds over us. It asserts that objects are magical, and interact with the supernatural world.

I would not say an idolater is someone who is more concerned with the value of things for their own sake than their transcendent nature. I think someone who carves a Tiki or a fetish or whatever is fashioning a physical form for their God out of a need for physical nearness and attachment. This is a spiritual quest, to be sure.

As a skeptic and atheist, I can equally claim that theists fashion gods all the time, but usually out of words and legends rather than stone.

Perhaps you are using a modern version of the term idolater to refer to people who "worship" money or luxury items. I would say that the word "worship" is applied unfairly by the labeler in order to prove his chosen point.

My interaction with inanimate objects is extremely secular. I don't praise and give thanks to a god when I operate a computer, nor do I beseach his mercy and guidance and thank him after I operate my motor vehicle. The object is inanimate, and does not require me to invoke heavenly authority in its operation. In this interaction, the value of the thing is in its usefulness.

I obviously do not worship my car, as I do not pray to it, nor do I interact with it in any spiritual way. I do not have any evidence my car has any interaction whatsoever with the supernatural, and so operating it requires none from me.

I contend that envisioning my car as part of a circle from god to me and back to god as attempting to imbue a supernatural quality to my car. It's "puttin a little god in the car", if you will. Whether by putting a plastic saint on the dashboard or just saying a little prayer inside.

Objects are inanimate. Envisioning them as part of a supernatural food-chain IS fashioning an idol out of them, in some sense... yes?

Or does it not count as idolotry if you say that all the tiki's you are creating are from the "real" "one and only" god?