What you WON'T hear in mainstream media:

[King of the Americas]

"America Attacked..."

....but not 'invaded'. Well, not invaded by a foreign occupying army, persay. We are invaded daily by illegal aliens, that big business loves because it means tons of cheap labor. On 9-11 we were 'attacked'. Well, actually I'd characterize what happened as a group sought to attack in an attempt to destroy several large symbols of what they believe to be responsible for THEIR oppression and invasion. I would even go as far as to call it a symbolic attack, not focused on an individual, but on several pieces of America making sure that it would kill- civilians, elected officials, and military personnel. However, I wouldn't call such a thing, or repeated attempts of the same thing, a 'death blow' for the United States.

'We' are not a building or structure or individual person. We are an idea, a concept of what each of us are due from God. America is the everlasting notion of Freedom, and that each of us should be Free to do what we want where ever we want, just so long as we don't infringe on other people's right to do just the same.

America as written is the Right of each to Life, Liberty, Property, and the Pursuit of Happiness. These things can't be surrendered to any attacking army.

I believe the 9-11 attacks were in response to an action or behavior of our's OUTSIDE of our borders, and LESS to do with what we do inside our borders. I liken this directly to the relationship anyone would have with a neighbor. Say your neighbor likes to throw parties, get togethers, and other outdoor events with lots of people. Well, just so long as they always keep it out of your yard and confined to the weekends with lowered noise levels at night, you'd probably not complain too much. That being said, if there were naked people dancing in your flower bed in front of your kid's open window, while he is sitting there smoking a cigarette that they gave him...then you gotta pretty good reason to get hostile with the neighbors.

Now ask yourself, "Who are the ones being a bad global neighbors, by overextending their borders?"

Folks I can't say I've seen a foreign army quartered in my town lately. That doesn't mean I haven't seen S.W.A.T & D.E.A teams busting down some old person's door and take him to jail for smoking and growing a little herb, but that is another subject all together and we'll get to that later. People are pissed off because we've set up OUR businesses on their street corners, and we are claiming an absolute right to free trade in their countries, whether they like it or not. Moreover, we quarter soldiers in lands where they are NOT wanted, and are deemed 'invaders' and or referred to as 'foreign occupation'.

The interesting hypocrisy is that we are pushing the sale of our drug crops, like alcohol and tobacco, killing off hundreds of thousands a year in our country and possibly millions globally. THEN we turn around and demonize and make illegal those crops from regions that grow those 'desirable crops' that we can not, and even claim righteousness in attacking their supply, while injuring innocent civilian farmers.

Can you imagine another country going to War on our tobacco farmers?

You wanna have 'Homeland Security', then keep your party inside YOUR yard, and out of other people's. Other nation's don't really care how Free, We are. But when someone starts trying to show my kids how free they should be...well they or you crossed the line. I'll take care of the stuff in my yard, you take care of the stuff in your yard, and we'll get along just fine.

By the way, 'I' plan to go along with MY good neighbor style and say that I plan to grow some fruit and vegetables this year. I would gladly share any overproduction I suffer.

Better ways to better days, people.

King,
North Texas

[Jocko]

I still want to know what the hell you were talking about when you left and said something about refrigerator doors.

No, wait a second, I really don't want to know.

[Psiload]

King of the Americas posted:

What you won't hear in the mainstream media

"America Attacked..." ....but not 'invaded'. Well, not invaded by a foreign occupying army, persay.

Sooo... I won't hear the mainstream media reporting that America was attacked, but not invaded? Or... I will hear that America is attacked, but not invaded? Or... I won't hear the mainstream media reporting that America has been attacked and invaded, but not by a foreign occupying army? Or... I will hear the mainstream media reporting that America has been attacked, and invaded by a foreign occupying army... but only per se?

And what does all this have to do with refrigerator doors?

[King of the Americas]

What you won't hear is a discussion of the root causes of Terrorism, and the very nature of our foreign policy that provokes these attacks. Moreover, any attempt to do so will immediately be labeled part of the "Blaim America first crowd".

And I'm not sure I make a connection between this issue and refrigerator doors staying closed by use of gravity.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by King of the Americas
What you won't hear is a discussion of the root causes of Terrorism, and the very nature of our foreign policy that provokes these attacks. Moreover, any attempt to do so will immediately be labeled part of the "Blaim America first crowd".

You're a confirmed terrorist sympathiser who's upset that the media won't report on your whacked-out theory of the root cause of terrorism? Imagine that. I prefer my media outlets to be comprised of news, not a daylong version of visiting hours at the psych ward.

Why not just admit that you're starving for attention and you need your ass kicked around a little? Have THAT much integrity, at least.

And I'm not sure I make a connection between this issue and refrigerator doors staying closed by use of gravity.

Neither do we. You're the one who said it (or has the pot erased that memory too?)

Answer up, Albert. Are you saying that Bush is holding the refrigerator door open?

[Jocko]

My Departing Thought:
"If your house suffers from a slant, make sure you use it to keep the refrigerator door closed."


So the slant is the inexorable French obstructionism, and the refrigerator is the World Trade Center, and gravity is inversely proportional to the length of bin Laden's beard? Am I reading this right?

[Psiload]

I don't know about you, but whenever I hear someone spouting about What you won't hear from the mainstream American media!, I just assume that person lives under a rock, or in an Amish community with a single rotary telephone connecting them to the outside world. Especially when they're referring to the events of Sept. 11th, and the pending American war with Iraq. Anyone who has access to basic cable, a radio, or a newspaper with a larger circulation than the Elksnout Pennsyltucky Evening Record, has got to have seen and heard EVERY single theory, opinion, notion, rant, rave, etc... from every imaginable angle, position, and trajectory... hashed out and flogged for the umpteenth time by now.

If this is a conspiracy of silence, I wish it would shut up already... it's making one hell of a deafening racket.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Psiload


If this is a conspiracy of silence, I wish it would shut up already... it's making one hell of a deafening racket.

Oh, fine, just ignore the refrigerator door. Some American you are. I mean, I watch CNN and Fox most nights and neither one of them have even mentioned the refrigerator door. It smells of conspiracy, I tell you!

[King of the Americas]

Okay, you are right, in that you'd be hard pressed NOT to find someone somewhere talking about this issue.

However, I would argue that this is an issue that gets FAR less airtime than most of the hawks' arguments.

Moreover, this argument is one that gets the least airtime, and 'I' believe the one that deserves the most airtime.

Like it or not, we are a society of sound bites, and this is an issue that gets shouted down or censored altogether.

[Troll]

I think the lesson here is to but the back of the fridge along the slanted wall so as to keep the door shut or prevent it from swinging wide open.

So when the house (UN) develops a slant (French opposition) you should turn your back on them so they don't ruin anything else for ya. :D

[Psiload]

Originally posted by King of the Americas
Okay, you are right, in that you'd be hard pressed NOT to find someone somewhere talking about this issue.

However, I would argue that this is an issue that gets FAR less airtime than most of the hawks' arguments.

Moreover, this argument is one that gets the least airtime, and 'I' believe the one that deserves the most airtime.

Like it or not, we are a society of sound bites, and this is an issue that gets shouted down or censored altogether.
Correct... you've stumbled upon the shocking truth; most mainstream media outlets are *gasp* :eek: for-profit businesses whose secondary mission is to report the truth, the whole truth, and nuttin' but the truth. It's no use crying about it, or insisting it's some kind of conspiracy of censorship... all you've got to do is consider the notion that the loudest opinion isn't necessarily correct. The trick, as I've told you before, is to be smarter than your TEEVEE.

And if you can't manage that, you've got bigger problems than keeping score of which opinions garner more sound bites.

[King of the Americas]

Agreed.

The problem is that at least 50% of Americans are only half as smart as the programs they get their sound bite arguments from.

When I see programs like "Street Smarts", I am not surprised to see further that now 45% of Americans believe Saddam was responsible for the 9-11 attacks.

Interestingly enough about half of America proclaims "Love America or leave it!", when someone like me raises the issue of the root causes of terrorism.

Why did you choose to remark on the title of my post rather than the content of it?

Moreover, what IS your response to the content herein?

[Psiload]

Originally posted by King of the Americas
Agreed.

The problem is that at least 50% of Americans are only half as smart as the programs they get their sound bite arguments from.

When I see programs like "Street Smarts", I am not surprised to see further that now 45% of Americans believe Saddam was responsible for the 9-11 attacks.

Interestingly enough about half of America proclaims "Love America or leave it!", when someone like me raises the issue of the root causes of terrorism.

Why did you choose to remark on the title of my post rather than the content of it?

Moreover, what IS your response to the content herein? Sure... What the hell, why not? It's not like I'm sitting here at work splitting the atom, or curing cancer.

As far as your notion that there would be no terrorism against the U.S. if we would just adopt a foreign policy that was strictly hands-off, isolationism, and warm, fuzzy kittens towards the Middle East...

Yeah, if we all lived in gumdrop houses on lollipop lane, that policy would work just fine. Here in the real world though, we've got to be involved, and we've got to protect our interests, because, as amply demonstrated by current world opinion, no one else is going to do it for us.

As far as your "noisy neighbor" analogy...

One night, back when I was living in California, a guy broke into my apartment, pointed a gun at me, and proceeded to rob me of just about everything I had...which wasn't much. And guess what? I had never danced naked on my front lawn, nor had I given his kid a cigarette. My guess is that the guy probably wasn't even my neighbor. The point...

There are people out there that may not share your 'live and let live' philosophy. Some people actually have more of a 'you scratch my back, I'll stab yours' thing going on. Look how the Chinese rewarded the pacifist peoples of Nepal for there neighborly respect and kindness.

To be continued...

[King of the Americas]

Look, I have no problem with my neighbors who don't trust me to play nice nice, so they build a huge ass fence with motion detector lights, and arm their entire family so that IF my party does spill over into their yard, or God forbid some does try to break in to their home, that they have every ability to defend their borders with force.

We we have ****** global neighbors that use violence to get what they want, why aren't we concerned with actually keeping them at bay!?

Our military forces are off in some OTHER country protecting our economic interests instead of our immediate safety.

THIS is where I have a problem with our foreign policy, and is also where I believe most of the hostility toward us comes from.

It 'appears' as though our military isn't trying to protect us from invasion, but rather provoking others to attack us by occupying their lands against the wishes of the native people.

You wanna poke fun and say that an isolationist position is a far off dream, I say this is only true because there are those dedicated to the proposition that we are to be the next global rule, a "Novus Ordo Seclorum" our moneys would suggest.

Meanwhile we ARE the bad global neighbors hell bent on pissing off any and every country that crosses us, and NOW the U.N. itself.

I am not saying this can be changed, that 'I' alone can do it, or even that thousands upon millions could do it. I just wish to relay the truth of the matter, and let others know and understand why it is we are being and will continue to be attacked. And that it is NOT because we are Free, and it is not due to our actions inside our borders, but is 'mainly' caused by that which we do OUTSIDE our borders.

[Mike B.]

So I take it KOA that you are angry that "Kafir" and "Crusader" women were allowed to be in Western armies where the "prophet received his revelation?"

You can sympathize and understand why that is a justifiable grievance...

I mean that is what Ossama himself said...

Or do you believe he was concerned that the US was not signing the Kyoto protocols? :rolleyes:

Also, please stop looking down on people about not being "half as smart" as the news programs with sound bytes. You have yet to say a cogent thing, and your syntax is so fractured it is almost impossible to understand you at times.

[King of the Americas]

I believe this is a mis-characterization of my stance.

The issue at hand is our behavior, and their reaction to i t.

I don't think this is JUST about us being in their Holy Land, but rather is in response to our 'seemingly' imperalistic tendencies, and our use of our superior military forces to secure our economic needs, even when it infringes on a foreign citizenery.

Why just this morning I heard a U.S. Elected Official answer the question of "What is the root cause of Terrorism?" and give this answer:

"Envy."

His arguemnt is that they envy how Free way are, and they just want to drag us down with them...

I guess if this is true Canada, Amsterdam, and Austeralia should watch out.

In any case, this is where the falacy lies.

They don't care how Free we are, they are pissed at what some have done with their freedom in THEIR countries.

There is hypocrisy in our foreign policy, and it is THIS that is the root cause of Terrorism.

I guess I could best explain this by offering you this:

Remember the board game "RISK", each player is given a number of armies and a selection of territories in which to place them. The more territories you aquire the more armies you get, the more you get the easier it is to take over the world and win.

Well, if you were to apply the current events to a simulation in this game, you would see massive numbers cannons and horses all over the board controlled from North America set ready to make a run at glaobal donimation.

We have bases occupied with ARMED soliders, daily practicing arms play, and even destorying environmental habitats in Cuba, Germany, France, Korea, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and any number of other locations. And yet I do NOT see foreign solider quartered HERE...

Therefore, I ask who is the invader?

We ARE a Free people, because we kicked out our Kings and Queen. We fought for our freedom, and like Salvation it has to be desired before it can be aquired. Years ago people and armies sought to force Christianity upon pagan lands, when they didn't want it. Today, we are no less wrong in using military force to bring Democracy into uninvited lands.

The actual 'hypocrisy' can be found in who and when we decide to use our military force. If we are enforcing U.N. Resolution, then why aren't we bust'n down Israel's front door? If we support Democracies, then why are we in Saudia Arabia and Kuwiat, neither of which are Democracies but both of which have our full military support? Why are OUR drug crops 'allowed' to be sold of the Free Market, but South America's are NOT?

Arrogant, Imperialistic, and Hypocritical...and now about to go to war to 'displace' yet another regeim that has fallen out of our favor.

And to what end? Increased Homeland Security?

I think NOT!



-His Majesty, Albert James Knabe, King of the Americas

[Jocko]

Okay, I'll cut you some slack and play nice. I have about 4 and a half hours before I'll be glued to the TV anyway.

Originally posted by King of the Americas
I believe this is a mis-characterization of my stance.

The issue at hand is our behavior, and their reaction to i t.

Well, that's the issue of your thread, but not the issue at large. Which I suppose is why you've raised the point.

I don't think this is JUST about us being in their Holy Land, but rather is in response to our 'seemingly' imperalistic tendencies, and our use of our superior military forces to secure our economic needs, even when it infringes on a foreign citizenery.

If they are justified in misinterpreting our actions as imperialistic, then how are we not justified in "misinterpreting" their actions as nothing more than the lashings-out of savages who cannot be bargained with?

If you give the benefit of the doubt to one side it's only fair that you give it to the other.

Why just this morning I heard a U.S. Elected Official answer the question of "What is the root cause of Terrorism?" and give this answer:

"Envy."

His arguemnt is that they envy how Free way are, and they just want to drag us down with them...

That is a simplistic but accurate answer that most people accept as true, or at least partly true. I still don't see any evidence from you that there is a likely alternative explanation.

I guess if this is true Canada, Amsterdam, and Austeralia should watch out.

America is and has always been the symbol of all freedom loving states. If you're going to make a statement against "western ideals," where better to make it than with number one?

In any case, this is where the falacy lies.

They don't care how Free we are, they are pissed at what some have done with their freedom in THEIR countries.

Serious point of order there, kid. You haven't proved any fallacy. Sure, you have bin Laden saying that his stated gripe with the US is our presence on Saudi soil, but even a right-winger like me knows bin Laden does not speak for all, or even many, muslim extremists.

Plus, you have detailed how Saudi Arabia is NOT a free state, and languishes under an unpopular monarchy. This is true. So how can we violate "freedoms" they don't even have?

There is hypocrisy in our foreign policy, and it is THIS that is the root cause of Terrorism.

What you call hypocrisy most people would call pragmatism. We can't take on the world all at once, and we have to look after our own interests. No one else is going to do it for us, as the UN has amply demonstrated.

Everyone does it, and no sane nation would expect anything different. While I agree there are problems- even BIG problems- with US foreign policy, the course of action you describe would only be applicable in certain circumstances at certain times. It's not a viable philosophy for an entire nation's priorities, especially when they are as complex as America's.

[Mike B.]

UMMMM KOA,

Australia was the victim of terrorists in Bali...Southern Sudanese people are being killed by people with connections to Al Queda. The Phillipines is as well.

So your fallacy does not work.

You say hypocrisy is the cause, yet again you have failed to show any alternative reason that Bin Laden and others do what they do beyond being motivated by fundamentalist Islamic bigotry.

[King of the Americas]

I edit my previous response before reading your last, in which I address several of the points you raised.

[King of the Americas]

...here?