Israel Setting up worlds largest prison?

[a_unique_person]

will this be the worlds largest prison, or ghetto? the fence is a monster that dwarfs the berlin wall. It will totally encirlce the palestinians. It will be under Isreali control. It will remove the remaining good farmland. It will remove large sections of the existing palestinian land. It cuts into existing palestinian land.

The section along the border with jordan, which has nothing to do with terrorism, just shows that the purpose of the fence is much more than what it is presented as having.



Sharon plans to encircle Palestinian state with wall

Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has told his cabinet that he plans to extend the "security fence" Israeli is building along the length of the West Bank to encircle any Palestinian state.

The revelation immediately drew fire from Palestinians, who accused Mr Sharon of trying to turn the occupied territories and a future Palestinian state into a huge prison.

Mr Sharon made his announcement on Sunday while taking his cabinet on a secret tour of the fence - a six-metre wall topped with barbed wire.

The 370-kilometre wall under construction will extend the length of the West Bank, going deep inside Palestinian territory for long stretches. It will almost surround one city, probably two.

Now Mr Sharon is proposing to link the two ends with an additional section along the length of the Jordan Valley.

He denied it was intended to define the borders of a Palestinian state ahead of the implementation of the US "road map".

[Richard G]

Great idea. I imagine the Palesinians will resort to killing themselves when they can no longer get out to blow up other innocent people. Criminals one and all.

[hammegk]

Yeah, Australia still holds the "biggest prison" title. I'm starting to think the Brits sent more nut-cases than criminals though.

[Skeptic]

will this be the worlds largest prison, or ghetto? the fence is a monster that dwarfs the berlin wall. It will totally encirlce the palestinians. It will be under Isreali control.

The palestinians should have thought of that before they started sending dozens of suicide bombings from palestinian areas into israel with the goal of killing as many israelies as possible. It goes without saying that nobody in israel even considered bulding such a fence before that.

[corplinx]

How is it a prison with only a wall on one side?

[originalgagster]

Originally posted by Skeptic
will this be the worlds largest prison, or ghetto? the fence is a monster that dwarfs the berlin wall. It will totally encirlce the palestinians. It will be under Isreali control.

The palestinians should have thought of that before they started sending dozens of suicide bombings from palestinian areas into israel with the goal of killing as many israelies as possible. It goes without saying that nobody in israel even considered bulding such a fence before that.

You cant punish an entire people for the crimes of a few.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by hammegk
Yeah, Australia still holds the "biggest prison" title. I'm starting to think the Brits sent more nut-cases than criminals though.
Biggest prison title ? Who awarded this one?

Maybe the description could be "descendants of European rejects " but that may make us sound too much like the USA?

How about poor white trash looking for a home at the expense of the native inhabitants.....nope, too close again.

One thing you could do for me hammy....could you PM RichardG an origional thought once in a while?. He's really struggling if the topic is not guns....

[hammegk]

Originally posted by The Fool

....could you PM RichardG an origional thought once in a while?. ....

Sure, be glad to if you could explain what "origional" means. Is it an Aussie thing? Something Aboriginal? I give up!

[The Fool]

Originally posted by hammegk


Sure, be glad to if you could explain what "origional" means. Is it an Aussie thing? Something Aboriginal? I give up!

Its original with an extra o in it, as I didn't charge you for the extra o I don't see that you have grounds for complaint.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by corplinx
How is it a prison with only a wall on one side?

RTFL. The wall is going to surround them.

[crackmonkey]

Yeah, a big encircling wall is just mean. I propose that they go with landmines.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
will this be the worlds largest prison, or ghetto? the fence is a monster that dwarfs the berlin wall. It will totally encirlce the palestinians. It will be under Isreali control.

The palestinians should have thought of that before they started sending dozens of suicide bombings from palestinian areas into israel with the goal of killing as many israelies as possible. It goes without saying that nobody in israel even considered bulding such a fence before that.

no, they thought they would just surrender without a fight

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
Yeah, a big encircling wall is just mean. I propose that they go with landmines.

your prayers have been answered, it comes with them too.

[Tony]

Screw the palestinians.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Tony
Screw the palestinians.

I await those accusing me of anti-semitism to reply to this comment.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


no, they thought they would just surrender without a fight

Yes, I keep forgetting that blowing up jewish babies on buses is a "legitimate war of liberation", while the jews attempting to stop this is "imprisoning" the palestinians.

[crackmonkey]

When you think about it, encircling Palestine in land-mines is like an express lane to heaven for would-be suicide bombers. The martyr-o-matic... step one foot outside your land and you will be face-to-face with Allah. No need to worry about faulty fuses or bad wiring, my friend! Paradise is merely a step away.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I await those accusing me of anti-semitism to reply to this comment.
Lol. "Anti-Palistinianism" just doesn't have the same ring to it. Maybe if Mexicans started building settlements on his texas ranch he would have a different attitude....After all, wasn't texas all Mexican land originally? They should be entitled to bulldoze his house and build a settlement.

[Ben Shniper]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I await those accusing me of anti-semitism to reply to this comment.

False reasoning. I am not responsible for his words, and his views don't necessarily apply to mine.

Do Palestinians have a right to be free? Just as much as any other group. Can they lose this right by being nasty enough to their neighbors? I guess we will find out. This is just the inevitable consequence of perpetuating 50 years of terrorism against men, women and children and the long denial of the rights of a fellow civilization to exist alongside themselves.

Had Arafat any foresight, he could have seen that no group, not even Jews, can forever be on the receiving end of terrorism without response. Arafat has for years been using terrorism to destroy a state he doesn't like. He's from Egypt. He calls himself a "freedom fighter" even as he fights over land that's never NOT been disputed. He claims to have the only legitimate ownership of that same land Jews lived on for millenia, and others have lived there quite a while as well.

Unfortunately, the current thinking appears to be that this same process to the rest of the world. The process of conquest through terrorism is still in process, making things harder for everyone. The problem is that the Israelis refuse to lay down and die, or leave their only homeland, just because of the worst terrorism imaginable.

Turnaround is fair play:
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15761&pagenumber=2#post383640

Arguments taken from your own "non-racist" posts.

-Ben

AUP, I was wondering if you had a link to the story you quoted at the top of this topic.

I am also curious to know if the Israelis are planning on any more settlements.

[Tony]

Originally posted by The Fool

Lol. "Anti-Palistinianism" just doesn't have the same ring to it. Maybe if Mexicans started building settlements on his texas ranch he would have a different attitude....After all, wasn't texas all Mexican land originally? They should be entitled to bulldoze his house and build a settlement.

:rolleyes:

So what, I showed contempt for an inferior culture that teaches thier children to blow-up themselves to kill innocent people, is that wrong?

I take the side of freedom and democracy, in this case the Israelis. The so-called palestinians are muslim fanatics of the same stripe as bin laden. And as far as im concerned the "palestinians" squandered what sympathy I might of had for them when they cheered on 9/11, they could all be killed tomorrow and I wouldnt give a ****.


As for your comments, the first wet-back that steps foot on my property with intentions of its destruction, will be met with a bullet in the head.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by LukeT
AUP, I was wondering if you had a link to the story you quoted at the top of this topic.

I am also curious to know if the Israelis are planning on any more settlements.

my aplogies.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/18/1047749768826.html

[renata]

Originally posted by LukeT
AUP, I was wondering if you had a link to the story you quoted at the top of this topic.

I am also curious to know if the Israelis are planning on any more settlements.

This has been going on since the summer
Here is a link
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/06/17/kessel.otsc/index.html

And I am not strictly speaking only of a fence, because there will be a melange of obstacles, including a very tall wall in some places near where Palestinian towns are right alongside that border between Israel and the West Bank. Also ditches, also patrol roads, also electronic surveillance devices, all coming together in what the Israelis are calling a fence along the West Bank-Israel border.

This has become almost a political imperative in Israeli politics, as each time a suicide bomber gets through, the public demand for such an obstacle, a barrier, increases. And that has led to the fact that this fence is now becoming a political reality.

But there is something more than the fence. ... That is the conception [that] perhaps this is the first stage of what the Israelis call unilateral separation from the Palestinians. That could be what's causing the fuss among the right-wing opponents, who don't want this to be a political fence, a political border in the future.


Nothing about mines here, though

There was an outcry over suicide bombers sneaking through the border, and the fence was the solution. It is heavily opposed by Palestinians, and by right wing Israelis, who are afraid they will have to give up settlements left on the Palestinian side of the fence. My understanding at the time was that this was an attempt to seal the border to prevent infiltrations. Furthermore, I understood that this was one of the steps to creating an independent Palestine. It is kind of like Israel saying- we tried negotiation, we tried force, nothing worked- the heck with them, we will build a fence, withdraw our people they will live their lives how they want and we will live ours.
Not a good solution, but better than some.

[a_unique_person]

more info

http://www.gooff.com/news/read.asp?ID=1831

from a 'lefty' source, but i don't think the basic facts would be in dispute.



It has been estimated that construction of the wall will entail the seizure of a further 10 percent of the West Bank. It is not only land that Israel is seizing, but other vital resources such as the western mountain aquifer that is situated under the 1967 green line. The aquifer presently supplies West Bank Palestinians with over 50 percent of their water.

Jamal Juma of the Palestinian Environmental Network said, “Once the wall is up it will cripple Palestinian agriculture and economic activity, and turn the West Bank into a series of disconnected, dependent entities or Bantustans. It will make life unliveable and cause the Palestinians to leave, which is what Israel, currently clamouring for transfer or ethnic cleansing, wants.”

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by renata


This has been going on since the summer
Here is a link
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/06/17/kessel.otsc/index.html



Nothing about mines here, though

There was an outcry over suicide bombers sneaking through the border, and the fence was the solution. It is heavily opposed by Palestinians, and by right wing Israelis, who are afraid they will have to give up settlements left on the Palestinian side of the fence. My understanding at the time was that this was an attempt to seal the border to prevent infiltrations. Furthermore, I understood that this was one of the steps to creating an independent Palestine. It is kind of like Israel saying- we tried negotiation, we tried force, nothing worked- the heck with them, we will build a fence, withdraw our people they will live their lives how they want and we will live ours.
Not a good solution, but better than some.

except that it appears sharon is planning a complete encirlement, with large, strategic chunks taken out of palestinian land.

You are correct, I can't find a mention of mines, though. there will be watch towers with armed guards every 300 metres, with high tech surveillance devices.

[Tony]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


except that it appears sharon is planning a complete encirlement, with large, strategic chunks taken out of palestinian land.

You are correct, I can't find a mention of mines, though. there will be watch towers with armed guards every 300 metres, with high tech surveillance devices.

I hope you're right, something has to be done to stop the menace emanating from palestine. The free people of Israel should not be subjected to the violence wrought by a few disgruntled fanatics.

[Cleopatra]

These are rather old news Mr.Unique, I wonder what made you remember of this now.

This Wall is a insult to the victims of Holocaust and it won't help Israel at all.It's exactly what I was saying to Segnosaur to another thread. The Wall will block every "educational procedure" towards Democracy.

You see, if we spend time quoting Finkelstein, we offer time to the extremists, to built Walls...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
These are rather old news Mr.Unique, I wonder what made you remember of this now.

This Wall is a insult to the victims of Holocaust and it won't help Israel at all.It's exactly what I was saying to Segnosaur to another thread. The Wall will block every "educational procedure" towards Democracy.

You see, if we spend time quoting Finkelstein, we offer time to the extremists, to built Walls...

i still don't quite see what you are getting at. i have heard about the wall before. I did not realise until today that the aim is to completely encircle palestine.

the more sharon does, the more you realise he has plans that totally disregard any semblance of respect for palestinians as human beings.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


i still don't quite see what you are getting at. i have heard about the wall before. I did not realise until today that the aim is to completely encircle palestine.

Don't be so suspicious...give me the benefit of the doubt...

Did you read anything new about this in the papers or did you hear anything at the News lately?

the more sharon does, the more you realise he has plans that totally disregard any semblance of respect for palestinians as human beings.

Sharon was elected to protect the interests of his people, you cannot blame him or criticize him of what he is doing to the Palestinians since he is in War with them. Criticize Sharon for what he does to serve his country.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Don't be so suspicious...give me the benefit of the doubt...



no, i really didn't see what you were getting at. a little too cryptic for me.



Did you read anything new about this in the papers or did you hear anything at the News lately?



yep, todays paper, total encirclement.



Sharon was elected to protect the interests of his people, you cannot blame him or criticize him of what he is doing to the Palestinians since he is in War with them. Criticize Sharon for what he does to serve his country.

he was elected to do one thing, but he was elected on a lie. his idea of bringing security has never brought greater insecurity. suicide bombers are only a relatively recent phenomenon. He has only ever shown contempt for the peace process and palestinians. he has planned for the whole settlement process and detruction of palestine for years, from his time in the army. he is a psycopath with no morality. he is everything arafat is described as being, but worse, as he is much more effective.

[Shane Costello]

The Arabs constructed the world's largest prison ages ago. It's called fundamentalist Islam.

[Reginald]

LOL reading all these posts, I just cant see why a reasonable settlement is so diffecult on this Palestine/Israel isuue!

:rolleyes:

Flood the place with blue helmets (ohh matron!) from that United erm thingy that was around at one point.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
The Arabs constructed the world's largest prison ages ago. It's called fundamentalist Islam.

ha ha ha, ho ho ho, now, how about some actual logical argument

[Drooper]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
will this be the worlds largest prison, or ghetto? the fence is a monster that dwarfs the berlin wall. It will totally encirlce the palestinians. It will be under Isreali control. It will remove the remaining good farmland. It will remove large sections of the existing palestinian land. It cuts into existing palestinian land.

The section along the border with jordan, which has nothing to do with terrorism, just shows that the purpose of the fence is much more than what it is presented as having.



Do you have a reference for this?

[ssibal]

Yes, Israel is building the world's largest prison. After the wall is done, every Palestinian will have to trade in their regular clothes for striped prison uniforms....

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
will this be the worlds largest prison, or ghetto? the fence is a monster that dwarfs the berlin wall. It will totally encirlce the palestinians. It will be under Isreali control. It will remove the remaining good farmland. It will remove large sections of the existing palestinian land. It cuts into existing palestinian land.

The section along the border with jordan, which has nothing to do with terrorism, just shows that the purpose of the fence is much more than what it is presented as having.



....and if the Palestinians did not embrace terrorism, and openly call for genocide against the Jews and the destruction of the state of Israel they'd be living in peace, and not inside a self imposed ghetto. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Nothing to do with terrorism....what a joke...do you actually believe this $hit? No, you don't...just a leftie troll you are....

[hammegk]

The Israeli money would be better spent developing a neutron bomb, although there may be nothing tangible worth saving in the Palestinian ghettos.

Or better yet, just ship the whole bunch to Australia.

[Wile E. Coyote]

If Israel negotiates and concedes land to Palestine in exchange for a stop to the terrorism, then we all lose.

The Palestinians are not reacting in a way that is beneficial to humanity, regardless of what Israel has done. If we let it be shown that terrorism is an effective way to resolve conflicts, then terrorism will be used by every interest group without an army, as well as some that do have armies.

Palestinian children are conditioned to hate. The time for diplomacy is over. The Israelis want peace, and the Palestinians want every Jew dead. There is no "love your neighbor" solution left.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


he was elected to do one thing, but he was elected on a lie. his idea of bringing security has never brought greater insecurity. suicide bombers are only a relatively recent phenomenon. He has only ever shown contempt for the peace process and palestinians. he has planned for the whole settlement process and detruction of palestine for years, from his time in the army. he is a psycopath with no morality. he is everything arafat is described as being, but worse, as he is much more effective. [/B]

You are not talking seriously, right?

She almost forgot!!!
Claps hands impatiently and orders Charmion to go get from the basement the boxing sac with the photo of PM Sharon on it, the one she uses her self when she decides to spend the pre-electoral period in Israel …
She orders to be sent immediately to Mr. A Unique Person with her Royal compliments…
This boxing sac has saved her many times from over-reacting in public forums...

[renata]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


You are not talking seriously, right?


Many of us have asked that question after reading AUP's posts. I still wonder, but AUP insists he is serious.

By the way, welcome to the forum!

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by rikzilla


....and if the Palestinians did not embrace terrorism, and openly call for genocide against the Jews and the destruction of the state of Israel they'd be living in peace, and not inside a self imposed ghetto. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Nothing to do with terrorism....what a joke...do you actually believe this $hit? No, you don't...just a leftie troll you are....

the hypocricy.

No one is allowed to dare mention 'The Jews'. That is anti-semitic. But the 'The Palestinians' and 'The Arabs', who are all evil, extremist muslims and suicide bombers, and have no right to expect anything, are fair game for anyone and everyone, and not a word of dissent will be raised. They all conspire to kill jews, they all want violence. No one dissents, all are in on the conspiracy. They eat jewish flesh at moonlight BBQs.

[Cleopatra]

Thanks Renata.

I have just asked because I have guessed wrong twice so far with Unique.I wouldn't want to repeat a fallacy...

[Tony]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


the hypocricy.



Its only hypocracy if you give moral equivilance to Israel and the arabs living in palestine. I do not, the arabs in palestine are muslim fanatics, the state of Israel is a secular democracy.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


You are not talking seriously, right?

She almost forgot!!!
Claps hands impatiently and orders Charmion to go get from the basement the boxing sac with the photo of PM Sharon on it, the one she uses her self when she decides to spend the pre-electoral period in Israel …
She orders to be sent immediately to Mr. A Unique Person with her Royal compliments…
This boxing sac has saved her many times from over-reacting in public forums...

I can still remember that picture of sharon walking up to the temple mount with that big grin on his face, anticipating the deaths of thousands. he knew he was provoking the palestinians.

As for his desire to take over the west bank and not ever really offer anything to the palestinians, that is also documented.



Sharon Orders Launching 3 New Desert Settlements: Official
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has ordered officials to begin planning three new settlements in the Halutza Dunes area of the Western Negev desert in southern Israel, in an effort to foil any future attempt to cede the area to Palestinian control, Army Radio reported Monday.

During the administration of Sharon's predecessor Ehud Barak, Israeli and Palestinian officials raised the possibility of trading the unpopulated dunes area to Palestinian control under a deal that would thus allow more Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories to remain in place.

Shmulik Hitman, head of Ramat Hanegev Regional Council in southern Israel, told the radio that under plans being formulated, 20,000 Israelis would live in the Halutza bloc by 2010.

Barak had vowed to keep 80 percent of Jewish settlements under Israeli sovereignty while indicating willingness to evacuate small and scattered ones.

However, Sharon, who took power two months ago, has said that he has no intention whatsoever of evacuating any settlements from the Palestinian land.



http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200105/07/eng20010507_69377.html

yes, it is the people's daily, but i think that facts are not in dispute.

http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/uavnery2.htm



If Ariel Sharon were to formulate his intentions as a military operations order, like he used to do in the army, instead of hiding them behind a host of smoke screens, it would look like this:

1. Aims
To bring the Zionist Revolution to its conclusion, by turning all of Eretz-Israel, from the sea to the Jordan river, into a Jewish state, with a minimum of non-Jewish inhabitants (if any at all).

2. Information
The 1948 War of Independence [al-naqba] was broken off before achieving its aim. The State of Israel was established only on 78 per cent of the land, which brought about the removal of only 64 per cent of the Palestinians. In the 1967 Six Day War we conquered the remaining 22 per cent of the territories, but successive Israeli governments lacked the necessary willpower to conclude the Zionist revolution by annexing the territories and removing the remaining Arab population.

Now a window of opportunity has opened for concluding the job. Only one superpower (the US) remains; all the other powers (the UN, Europe, Russia and others) have in effect been eliminated.

The US is now lending us unlimited and unqualified support. It is to be hoped that it will continue to do so even when we employ harsh methods in the pursuit of our national aims. Experience shows that even when somebody in the American administration resists the implementation of our aims, this resistance collapses when faced with our determined stand (Operation "Defensive Shield"). Our control over both houses of the Congress and our decisive influence on most of the American media guarantee us freedom of action.

3. Methods
Our task will be achieved by the following methods, to be employed simultaneously:

a. Military operations, to break the armed Palestinian resistance.

b. Economic pressure, to cause mass Arab emigration from the country.

c. Settlement activity, to cut up the territories and prepare them for annexation to Israel.

d. Political action, to break the Palestinian political and social institutions.

4. Implementation
(a) Military operations: These will be conducted incessantly, without long pauses. The whole army, including the reserves, will be employed for this task, even if this necessitates a weakening of our preparedness vis-a-vis the Arab states and limiting training.

The IDF [Israeli Defence Forces] will occupy the Palestinian territories as needed, for long and short periods, in order to catch, arrest or execute all Palestinian militants who could organize resistance to our policy. For this purpose, there is no difference between terrorists and political leaders, between armed or civil resistance, between Hamas and Fatah. Maximal destruction of property will cause deterrence. This will be a repeated action, in order to eliminate every new set of leaders as it emerges.

Our actions will necessarily increase the motivation for terrorists to execute suicide bombings in Israel. These will provide us - both in the domestic and the international arenas - with reasons for our military action, which will be seen as a response.

The IDF will also assume a central role in exercising economic pressure (as follows).

It must be ensured that no officer who does not wholeheartedly support this task attains a senior position (chief of staff, officer in charge of regional commands, chief of departments, commander of divisions and brigades). For fulfilling a historic mission, hardness and cruelty are needed; there can be no place for bleeding hearts.

(b) Economic pressure: Mass expulsion, like in 1948, can be effected only in a special situation, such as a fully-fledged war or during an exceptional international event that draws away world attention.

Until this eventuality occurs, Palestinians must be induced to leave the country by economic pressure that makes their life intolerable. Such pressure will be achieved through closures and blockades that will prevent the movement of merchants and workers, teachers and pupils, doctors and patients. The whole economic life in the territories must be gradually brought to a standstill, so that the ability of the heads of families to feed their children is effectively destroyed.

IDF actions will enclose the Palestinians in small enclaves, where they will receive some kind of limited local autonomy, so as to relieve us of any formal responsibility for their situation.

In the prosecution of this policy, international public opinion and international aid agencies must be taken into account. From time to time, exceptions must be made to prevent extreme situations from arising.

(c) Settlement activity: This is a central tool for fulfilling the historic task. In spite of the fact that all Israeli governments since 1967 have understood this and acted accordingly, the tempo was slow. While more than 30 per cent of Judea and Samaria are part of the town planning areas of the settlements, hardly more than 1 per cent is actually settled. This is an intolerable scandal which must be speedily rectified. All ministries must take part in this urgent effort, devoting a considerable part of their resources to it.

Existing settlements must be enlarged and new ones set up by all possible means (takeovers after terrorist attacks, new neighbourhoods far from the existing settlements, etc.) The network of bypass roads must be expanded rapidly in order to cut off Palestinians towns and villages, to annex more land to the settlements and strengthen our control on the ground. All this must be done according to the existing strategic plan, which prevents Palestinian territorial continuity and tightens the economic blockade.

For the settlement effort, the economic resources of all ministries must be centralized and all other tasks must take second place. More people, including new immigrants, must be encouraged to join the settlements. If necessary, young couples should be offered villas at zero cost. The flight of the factories from the settlement industrial parks, following threats by the European community, must be stopped.

The IDF will devote the necessary resources to the protection of the settlements and the roads leading to them, even if this means calling up the reserves and ordering a whole battalion to protect one single isolated settlement.



sorry, this was written by a jew, how could i have let that slip past?



From MIFTAH

Israeli Settlements Continue to Crush Palestinians and International Law
19 June 2002

The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and Democracy (MIFTAH) implores the daily construction and expansion of Israeli settlements on seized Palestinian territory to end immediately for it is a vital part of Israel's concrete strategy to suppress the Palestinian people indefinitely.

The Israeli settlements that are being built daily under Ariel Sharon's hard line government are illegal for they contravene strict international law treaties. Article 49, paragraph 4 of the Fourth Geneva Convention on the Protection of Civilian Persons, provides that the "occupying power (Israel) shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into territories it occupies (Palestine)." The provisions contained in the 1907 Hague Regulations protecting public and private property in occupied territory prohibits the confiscation of land for settlement construction.

Continued illegal Israeli settlement construction and expansion is discordant with the notion of a just and lasting peace called for by the United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 465. Israel's customary practice of settling parts of its population along with new immigrants constitutes a serious obstruction to achieving a lasting peace in the Middle East. The Council has fruitlessly called upon Israel to "dismantle the existing settlements and in particular to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction of planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem."

We, the Palestinian people oppose these illegal settlements because they are in violation of legal, historic, geographic and demographic factors. Cities and villages such as east Jerusalem and Ramallah are prevented from growing in any direction due to the encroachment of the settlements. These criminal settlements disable the Palestinian ability to strive, for they stunt the growth of the Palestinian population by sucking dry the land and water that is reserved for the future state of Palestine.

Over 35 new hilltop settlements have sprung up under Ariel Sharon's government, but Israel failingly tries to convince and appease the international community by insisting that these hilltops are merely extensions of existing settlements. Sharon has over-willingly approved these hilltops at an unprecedented rate, five new hilltops on the very night he was elected. Sharon, who has a long history of supporting the expansion of settlements stands in defiance of international law by reiterating his unwillingness to uproot a single one of these illegal communities.



http://www.pengon.org/new/new9.html



Return of the warrior
Author: Ed O'Loughlin
Date: 01/02/2003
Words: 1354
Publication: Sydney Morning Herald
Section: News And Features
Page: 34

Despite his half-century record of aggression towards the Palestinians, many Israelis feel the re-elected Ariel Sharon is their best hope for peace. Ed O'Loughlin reports.

Like de Gaulle, they say, Sharon has somehow become a national icon in a time of crisis. This explains how his Likud party almost doubled its seats this week, despite a major influence-peddling scandal and revelations that Sharon secretly benefited from a $US1.5 million ($2.54 million) offshore ``loan". Like de Gaulle, Sharon has a formidable military record, which is how he remains a comfortingly strong father figure despite having presided over two years of Palestinian violence and terror.

Above all, some Israelis hope that, like de Gaulle, Sharon will do what nobody expected, and exploit his formidable reputation to push through concessions that would be impossible for Israel's doves.

Recalled from retirement to help the French crush the Arab colonial revolt in Algeria, de Gaulle took a long look at the situation and to the violent opposition of elements within his own armed forces brought the troops back home.

Could it be that the 74-year-old Sharon will use his new mandate to end Zionism's 80-year war with the Arabs? Or does he, as the Palestinians believe, plan to secretly pursue a cause he once championed openly, the gradual exile of all the Holy Land's remaining Arabs and the seizure of their remaining land?

The answer would seem obvious, if you could only judge by form.

In 1953 unknown Arab infiltrators murdered a Jewish woman and her two children just inside the fledgling state of Israel. General Moshe Dayan ordered a youthful major called Ariel Sharon to carry out a reprisal raid on the nearby Jordanian village of Qibya. When Sharon's ``special operations" Unit 101 withdrew, the village was in ruins and 69 civilians, two-thirds of them women and children, were dead. A UN investigator concluded the villagers had been forced by gunfire to remain in their homes, which were then blown up.

Promoted to senior rank, Sharon subsequently won a reputation for aggression, tactical flare and maverick action in the Arab-Israeli wars of 1967 and 1973. In the latter conflict he dramatically turned the tables in Israel's favour by driving his forces through the gap between two Egyptian armies and crossing the Suez Canal to cut them off from the rear.

It was a daring operation, but some lustre was lost to allegations from within the Israeli Defence Forces that Sharon had deliberately exceeded his orders, at the risk of his soldiers' lives. The following year Sharon quit the army to co-found the Likud (Unity) party, subsequently losing the leadership to Menachem Begin.

In 1982 most Israelis believed their army's incursion into Lebanon was intended solely to push exiled Palestinian Liberation Organisation forces out of artillery range of the Galilee. It soon transpired that Sharon, the defence minister, had more ambitious plans.

Unbeknown to most of his cabinet colleagues, Sharon had secretly been scheming to entice Lebanon's Maronite Christian minority into a new anti-Muslim alliance, destroying Syria's military influence and expelling Lebanon's Palestinian refugees into Jordan. There, they would rebel against the Jordanian royal family to form a Palestinian state outside the Holy Land. The Palestinians within the occupied West Bank and Gaza could then be forced into Jordan, clearing Eretz Israel (the biblical land of Israel) of its Arab inhabitants.

Launching the invasion, Sharon told the Israeli public and his fellow ministers that his troops would go no further than 40 kilometres into Lebanon. But they kept going, laying bloody siege to Beirut and fighting pitched battles with the Syrians in the Bekaa Valley.

It soon became clear that Sharon's grand plan for Lebanon was not just reckless but also deluded. Israel's chosen ally, Bashir Gemayel, could not dominate fractious Lebanon and was soon assassinated. The next day the Israelis occupied Muslim west Beirut and Sharon sent allied Maronite militiamen to ``clean up" the Palestinian refugee camps of Saba and Shatila.



source - http://newsstore.f2.com.au/apps/viewDocument.ac;jsessionid=xplad8dgq2?rc=10&sid=24026411&so=relevance&dt=selectRange&dr=1year&docID=SMH030201AAS9E27RTAN&sf=all&rm=200&kw="unit%20101"&sy=age&pb=all_ffx&clsPage=1&st=nw&ss=AGE

you have to pay to see this, but the information is available free from other sources.

what do we see, a man who provokes terror, so he can benefit from the fear he has generated.

[renata]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I can still remember that picture of sharon walking up to the temple mount with that big grin on his face, anticipating the deaths of thousands. he knew he was provoking the palestinians.


Cleopatra- See, I told you AUP was not kidding. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

AUP: I am so impressed with your psychic abilities! Quick, what am I anticipating......now!

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by renata


Cleopatra- See, I told you AUP was not kidding. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

AUP: I am so impressed with your psychic abilities! Quick, what am I anticipating......now!

you are not sharon. if you read my previous post, he has pretty good 'form' for using whatever means are necessary to achieve what he wants, the state of israel stretching from the sea to jordan. he has never been afraid to risk everything, and lives, to do that. his walk up to the temple mount was exactly to provoke a reaction, a reaction that he knew would result in death. he had a smile on his face.

http://www.theworld.org/archive/mideast/me24c.jpg

[a_unique_person]

Sharon blames Arafat for violence
The violence erupted Thursday after Israel's hawkish opposition leader Ariel Sharon made a visit to a contested shrine in disputed east Jerusalem. The shrine is known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as Al Haram al-Sharif, or Noble Sanctuary.

Palestinians said the visit "defiled" the site.

At least 52 people have been killed in the fighting.

Sharon, interviewed on CNN, defiantly said he had the right to go wherever he wished and blamed Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat for the escalating violence and the deaths.



palestinians, however, have no rights to go where they want. in fact, they will all soon be in jail.

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/10/03/mideast.violence.04/

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Palestinians said the visit "defiled" the site.

At least 52 people have been killed in the fighting.

Non-Muslims "defile" mosques by their mere presence.

It's hard to feel sympathetic toward persons who espouse this sort of reasoning.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by DrBenway


Non-Muslims "defile" mosques by their mere presence.

It's hard to feel sympathetic toward persons who espouse this sort of reasoning.

in a highly charged and tense situation like the middle east, i would not go out and push someones buttons like that.

i would also not feel right entering any religious site that i did not feel i would be welcome in. many religions do not want non believers in their temples. the question is, did sharon know he was provoking a reaction. by the number of body guards around him, he knew he was. he could have gone and played that golf that day if he wanted something better to do.

[ssibal]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
he had a smile on his face.

http://www.theworld.org/archive/mideast/me24c.jpg

You call that a smile?

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
in a highly charged and tense situation like the middle east, i would not go out and push someones buttons like that.

Maybe it wasn't clear just how much Muslims loathe non-Muslims. The non-believer is so hated, his mere presence makes anyone or anything near him, dirty. Killing a non-believer for touching a "holy place" isn't just an understandable response, it's a Muslim's duty.

I cannot respect the Muslim's psychotic belief system toward non-Muslims.

[a_unique_person]

http://www.cjr.org/year/02/4/leibovitz.asp

here is an interesting article. someone who has wrestled with their conscience over the actions of isreal, and has no easy answers. I find this sort of talk refreshing, rather than the one sided pro israeli spin i read here a lot of the time. if everyone had this attitude, i think a solution could be reached that is much more humane than the direction that israel is heading in now.



In addition, I had my own personal politics as an Israeli citizen to reckon with, adding additional ambiguity to this mix. One thing that placated me was that Israel’s government, then headed by Ehud Barak, seemed determined to make peace with the Palestinian Authority. In July 2000, when the summit in Camp David was announced, I bought myself a little notebook; I needed, so I thought, to write all of this down, to document this great moment in my country’s history.

And then it all went to hell.

The summit failed, a result of misguided Israeli zeal to end an age-old conflict instantaneously, and of Palestinian reluctance to grasp real opportunities through a veil of demagoguery. The Palestinians, thus, prepared for an armed conflict, killing an Israeli soldier in the Gaza strip in September even before the official beginning of the Intifada. Ariel Sharon, then the leader of the Israeli opposition, added fuel to the fire with his ill-conceived visit to the Temple Mount. Violence escalated, the framework of the peace accords rapidly crumbling with every Palestinian suicide bomber and every Israeli military incursion into Palestinian territory. In February 2001, Barak lost his seat to Sharon, who was for years a pariah to members of the Israeli left, myself included. Gradually, the daily briefings and talking points sent by the ministry in Jerusalem began addressing not peace but retribution, not coexistence but conflict.

[Baker]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

suicide bombers are only a relatively recent phenomenon.

So far this has been your only resonce to the main problem.
And one that you have faled to justify.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by DrBenway


Non-Muslims "defile" mosques by their mere presence.

It's hard to feel sympathetic toward persons who espouse this sort of reasoning.

I am not a Muslim, I am an Atheist. I have visited Numerous Mosques in Australia to participate in meetings and debates. The fact that I am an Atheist is known to the Muslims at the mosque. I have never been accused by anyone at these mosques of"defiling" anything.
Your constant claims that the fundie extremist statements in Muslim teachings are representative of the beliefs of anything other than a loonie fringe are False. Just as false as the idea that the blood, thunder and mass killings of the old testament are part of the objectives of Christians.

So why am I not Dead?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by DrBenway


Maybe it wasn't clear just how much Muslims loathe non-Muslims. The non-believer is so hated, his mere presence makes anyone or anything near him, dirty. Killing a non-believer for touching a "holy place" isn't just an understandable response, it's a Muslim's duty.

I cannot respect the Muslim's psychotic belief system toward non-Muslims.

We have a muslim family friend who is nothing like your description of 'muslims' at all. I think you need to recondsider if your views are based on bigotry and not facts.

i have no doubt there are muslim extremists, just as there are xian, jewish, and hindu extremists. they all frighten me.

sharons visit to the temple mount was, however, meant purely as a provocation. why didn't he just go down the shop and buy some milk instead?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Baker


So far this has been your only resonce to the main problem.
And one that you have faled to justify.

they have only recently been used in the palestinian context, since the beginning of the current intifada, IIRC, or about 4 years.. i do not know about all history. presumably, if isreal was not so intent on formally taking over the west bank and gaza, they may also stop, such as it is now, the pressure for resistance would stop.

In looking up some history on this subject, i found an article by thomas friedman that claimed that suicide bombing was an act of choice, and that if the palestinians had any morals and brains they would choose passive, non violent resistence. I think the thread on the woman run over by the bulldozer shows how much that strategy has achieved.



In the Middle East, suicide bombing was first used by the Hezbollah in Lebanon. From November 1982, when a suicide bomber destroyed a building in Tyre, killing seventy-six Israeli security personnel, through 1999, the year the Israelis withdrew from Lebanon, the Hezbollah carried out fifty-one suicide attacks. In October 1983 it took only two suicide explosions —one killing 241 American servicemen, mostly Marines, and the other killing 58 French paratroopers—to force the Americans and the French out of Lebanon. It wasn't until ten years later that the first Palestinian suicide bombing took place.



that would put the first palestinians suicide bombing as 1993, ten years ago. it has been under military occupation for about 35 years.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15979

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by The Fool
So why am I not Dead?

Because your Muslim friends do not follow the Shariah. You live not because of but in spite of Islamic law.

Try going to a mosque in Mecca and see what happens.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by DrBenway


Because your Muslim friends do not follow the Shariah. You live not because of but in spite of Islamic law.

Try going to a mosque in Mecca and see what happens.

and nobody follows the bible, or anything else completey either.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by DrBenway


Because your Muslim friends do not follow the Shariah. You live not because of but in spite of Islamic law.

Try going to a mosque in Mecca and see what happens.
And I have no doubt there is some obscure writing that says I could be put to death for farting in the vatican .... Where are all the dead bodies doc? I have seen numerous televised instances of non muslims tramping through mosques in mecca. I personally know of 2 people who have worked in Saudi Arabia and have visited mosques and managed to get back out alive..... Nobody murdered them, nobody accused then of defiling anything. Passages of the bible refer to the disabled not being allowed into Christian churches because they are an "abomination" in the eyes of God. Do people in wheelchairs currently enter church because of or in spite of Christian teachings? What If some Muslim was reciting this fact to other mulims and saying how nasty christians are because of this teaching...would it be fair, accurate, reasonable?

In My humble opinion approximately the same proportion of muslims are extremist fundie nutcases as any other religion.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by The Fool
Where are all the dead bodies doc?
The Taliban used a football stadium for their executions, which happened daily.

In My humble opinion approximately the same proportion of muslims are extremist fundie nutcases as any other religion.
Does "any other religion" include Scientologists? How about Branch Davidians? Jehovah's Witnesses? Mormons? the Heaven's Gate? Hare Krishnas?

When will you allow that the explicit beliefs and practices of a religious group are to be opposed?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by DrBenway

The Taliban used a football stadium for their executions, which happened daily.

Does "any other religion" include Scientologists? How about Branch Davidians? Jehovah's Witnesses? Mormons? the Heaven's Gate? Hare Krishnas?

When will you allow that the explicit beliefs and practices of a religious group are to be opposed?

yep, the taliban were a bunch of fundie kooks. as were the spanish inquisition. have you heard about the women who tried to pray at the wailing wall, or the jewish fundie who shot his own democratically elected PM. As far as he was concerned, he was obeying the will of his godl

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
yep, the taliban were a bunch of fundie kooks.
Would you consider other Islamic regimes "a bunch of fundie kooks"? I'm thinking of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, particularly.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by DrBenway



When will you allow that the explicit beliefs and practices of a religious group are to be opposed?

Any time you like. However you want to go much further than that. You do not wish to simply oppose or criticize certain muslim extremist teachings, you wish to propose that they are practiced by the mainstream. As this is clearly not the case, reality will continue to contradict your claims.

I live next door to the largest Muslim country in the world. Why are they not following your claims and butchering us? For as long as reality fails to match your image of islam you will continue to be wrong.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by The Fool
I live next door to the largest Muslim country in the world. Why are they not following your claims and butchering us? For as long as reality fails to match your image of islam you will continue to be wrong.
Until quite recently, it was forbidden for Indonesian political parties to use Islamic names or symbols as identifiers. Since this rule was changed, Islamic political groups have been gaining power. Yet the country is still a long way from universal Shari'at.

Malaysia, on the other hand, is closer to putting Islamic law into real practice.

Islamic law is fairly explicit. There are many reasons why it is not fully put into practice in much of the world. That doesn't mean that a majority of Muslims don't still believe the Shari'at is valid and ought to be practiced widely.

[The Fool]

Ok Doc, call me when all these things that may happen, are close to happening, could, should or might happen actually do......

Criticise the teachings, Condemn those that actually put them into practice.

Try to avoid deciding what other people believe.

[Cleopatra]

I have had the pleasure , many times so far, to debate serious anti-semites, scholars mostly, that they base their knowledge to studies and not to Google...

We have debated everything. History, Politics and we have even visited the Dark Sides of the issue. Yes, I have debated Biology and Blood Libels as well...

Mr.Unique. I assure you ,Sir ,that you are very far away from debating Israeli policy seriously.

In fact, you seem to me that you don't know what do you debate.

Please decide. Are you objecting to the Policy or to the existence of the State of Israel or do you object the Race ( Hey! Don't be afraid, it happens you know and I am willing to discuss about races as well...), do you despise Israeli people for voting for Sharon? What makes you think that you are smarter than the average Israeli?

What gives you the right, Sir, to mock at a democratically elected Prime Minister?

I haven't voted for Sharon but you see, I am not a follower of Saddam's mentality as well. I believe in Democracy, I respect the decision the majority has taken and I fight for a better world.

Keep in mind that I am not like other here who despise their country and they wished they were something else.

I don't allow to you and to anybody that sits comfortably on his chair, miles away from Israel, to make such comments for an elected PM.

You don't care about my palestinian fellow-citizens, you don't care about my Arab neighbours and I can prove it to you by using your own words.

First, you decide on what you object and I will be glad to have any kind of discussion with you. Don't expect me to participate in discussion that will blacklash outcomes of free elections, though.

[davefoc]

I am sure that nothing I say here can change the mind of anybody on such a longstanding issue. But, the complete inability of some people in this thread to understand the frustrations of the Palestinian people to the continued incursions into what the world tells them is their land is disheartening.

Does anybody that has posted to this thread have the slightest doubt that more Jews and more Palestinians have been killed because of Sharon's actions? Sharon, wants settlements. and Sharon doesn't want anthing resembling Palestinian autonomy. Sharon has acted as a naked provacateur to accomplish these goals. No amount of racist bashing of the Palestinians can hide this fact.

Of course, the death of innocent Israeli's is terribly sad. But Isn't it true that Palestinian deaths continue to far outnumber Israeli deaths? Israel continues to knock down homes, businesses and orchards as a way of controlling the suicide bombers. Can any of Israel's defenders not see how those measures might do nothing but piss off the Palestinian population to the point that they feel that there is little choice but to attack Israel in any way they can.

This is a link to an article about the settlements by a Jewish group opposed to the settlements.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Land_Grab_2002.asp#anchor-Background

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I have had the pleasure , many times so far, to debate serious anti-semites, scholars mostly, that they base their knowledge to studies and not to Google...



i have a family, job and other obligations. i do not see myself as an anti semite, for reasons i have stated many times. this is a forum for discussion, not a think tank for paid experts.



We have debated everything. History, Politics and we have even visited the Dark Sides of the issue. Yes, I have debated Biology and Blood Libels as well...



well, bully for you



Mr.Unique. I assure you ,Sir ,that you are very far away from debating Israeli policy seriously.

In fact, you seem to me that you don't know what do you debate.



i could say the same for you.



Please decide. Are you objecting to the Policy or to the existence of the State of Israel or do you object the Race ( Hey! Don't be afraid, it happens you know and I am willing to discuss about races as well...), do you despise Israeli people for voting for Sharon? What makes you think that you are smarter than the average Israeli?



dear me, did you read anything I wrote. Sharon has the israeli people just where he wants them, terrified.

I am willing to debate anything, but please don't accuse me of debating something i am not.

In what way have I claimed i am smarter than the 'average' israeli? i have the luxury of living in a distant land. sometimes, when you are right in the middle of something, it is hard to get a sense of perspective. i can understand that. skeptic, for example, was a member of the IDF. once you have been a member of a military force, you often keep that loyalty for life. If you wanted to see the shape of a mountain, you cannot see that shape when you are on that mountain.

I think i have said it many times before, but for your benefit, i will say it again. i am against the current policy of israel, the state, towards palestinians, the people.



What gives you the right, Sir, to mock at a democratically elected Prime Minister?



i am not mocking sharon. he is not someone to mock. i mock my own prime minister. he is the perfect target for such an act.



I haven't voted for Sharon but you see, I am not a follower of Saddam's mentality as well. I believe in Democracy, I respect the decision the majority has taken and I fight for a better world.



the majority needs to be informed. as i have shown before, the state of israel, as it is involved in a war, manipulates the media for it's own ends. truth is the first casualty of war. the majority is also influenced by emotions, and the current reigning emotion appears to be one of fear. sharon does not know fear, so they feel he is the best person to handle it.

there are many israelis, as i have also shown before, who do question what their government is up to, and do not approve. those who are willing to go to this effort are in the minority.

israel also suffers from one of the vagaries of democracy, the state that needs fragile co-alitions between disparate groups to form a majority. this in itself is not so bad, except when you get groups such as the extremists who wield influence out of proportion to their numbers. this is part of the reason for the settlement policy, which i believe is a major part of the reason for the current problems.



Keep in mind that I am not like other here who despise their country and they wished they were something else.



you can love your country, and not approve of the government's actions.



I don't allow to you and to anybody that sits comfortably on his chair, miles away from Israel, to make such comments for an elected PM.

You don't care about my palestinian fellow-citizens, you don't care about my Arab neighbours and I can prove it to you by using your own words.



?????



First, you decide on what you object and I will be glad to have any kind of discussion with you. Don't expect me to participate in discussion that will blacklash outcomes of free elections, though.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

. this is a forum for discussion, not a think tank for paid experts.


Lifts left eyebrow with wild sarcasm...

The fact that some people do not Google to get informed but they study, doesn't make them paid experts...

Sharon has the israeli people just where he wants them, terrified.

You are wrong. It was the Arabic fanatism that made Barak look ridiculous for participating in the Peace Talks...
From the moment Israelis started participating in peace talks and they have started giving back lands, the violence against Israeli civilians multiplied.This is a fact and it brought all of us who belive in peace, look ridiculous.

In what way have I claimed i am smarter than the 'average' israeli?

In a very simple way. You make comments about the sanity of a newly elected PM. Not very flattering for those who voted for him, don't you think?

i have the luxury of living in a distant land.

Why do you have to be so melodramatic? Say it in a simple way. You leave in your country, why on earth you should be living in Israel????

I don't live in Israel too. I have a life in my other half country.But I visit at least every 3 months and I have served the Israeli army as well.

sometimes, when you are right in the middle of something, it is hard to get a sense of perspective. i can understand that.

Hmmm... Interesting thought. So, do you suggest to the Israelis to ask from citizens from other countries to vote in their place?


the majority needs to be informed. as i have shown before, the state of israel, as it is involved in a war, manipulates the media for it's own ends.

I am afraid that you are rather misinformed your self. I asked you, in another thread, what do you know about Israeli peace activists and I didn't get a reply.Why?

Maybe because "The Guardian"doesn't report anything on them... It spoils the image of the blood thirsty Israelis who kill innocent civilians...

truth is the first casualty of war. the majority is also influenced by emotions, and the current reigning emotion appears to be one of fear.

Influenced by emotions? Emotions? Have you ever been to the funeral of your best friend? have you ever been to the funeral of your neighbour? Have you ever heard the shouts of injured people?

Have you ever seen blood on the streets?

Close your eyes and try to imagine it! You take your coffee with your wife and suddenly you hear a noise and the walls of the coffee shop turn red and it's human blood...

Israelis, of all people, are in the position to understand how the Palestinians feel. That's why they have difficulties in accepting lectures by ambitious illuminators...

there are many israelis, as i have also shown before, who do question what their government is up to, and do not approve. those who are willing to go to this effort are in the minority.

Really? What exactly do you know? Spare me with the vague referencies you read in Media... Do you know who share prison cells with Palestinians? Do you know why young Israelis are sent to prison? Have you heard about the Israeli human shields that have made life in the refugee camps a bit more tolerable? What do you know?

israel also suffers from one of the vagaries of democracy, the state that needs fragile co-alitions between disparate groups to form a majority. this in itself is not so bad, except when you get groups such as the extremists who wield influence out of proportion to their numbers. this is part of the reason for the settlement policy, which i believe is a major part of the reason for the current problems.

Montesqieu or Rousseau-I don't remember right now who- has once said that the best way to abolish a Law is to obey to it. You focus on the settllements because this is where the Media focus.

No, the settlements is not the cause for the current situation.
If you are interested in this topic we can discuss about it.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Lifts left eyebrow with wild sarcasm...

The fact that some people do not Google to get informed but they study, doesn't make them paid experts...



You are wrong. It was the Arabic fanatism that made Barak look ridiculous for participating in the Peace Talks...
From the moment Israelis started participating in peace talks and they have started giving back lands, the violence against Israeli civilians multiplied.This is a fact and it brought all of us who belive in peace, look ridiculous.



In a very simple way. You make comments about the sanity of a newly elected PM. Not very flattering for those who voted for him, don't you think?



Why do you have to be so melodramatic? Say it in a simple way. You leave in your country, why on earth you should be living in Israel????

I don't live in Israel too. I have a life in my other half country.But I visit at least every 3 months and I have served the Israeli army as well.



Hmmm... Interesting thought. So, do you suggest to the Israelis to ask from citizens from other countries to vote in their place?




I am afraid that you are rather misinformed your self. I asked you, in another thread, what do you know about Israeli peace activists and I didn't get a reply.Why?

Maybe because "The Guardian"doesn't report anything on them... It spoils the image of the blood thirsty Israelis who kill innocent civilians...



Influenced by emotions? Emotions? Have you ever been to the funeral of your best friend? have you ever been to the funeral of your neighbour? Have you ever heard the shouts of injured people?

Have you ever seen blood on the streets?

Close your eyes and try to imagine it! You take your coffee with your wife and suddenly you hear a noise and the walls of the coffee shop turn red and it's human blood...

Israelis, of all people, are in the position to understand how the Palestinians feel. That's why they have difficulties in accepting lectures by ambitious illuminators...



Really? What exactly do you know? Spare me with the vague referencies you read in Media... Do you know who share prison cells with Palestinians? Do you know why young Israelis are sent to prison? Have you heard about the Israeli human shields that have made life in the refugee camps a bit more tolerable? What do you know?



Montesqieu or Rousseau-I don't remember right now who- has once said that the best way to abolish a Law is to obey to it. You focus on the settllements because this is where the Media focus.

No, the settlements is not the cause for the current situation.
If you are interested in this topic we can discuss about it.

if you do not want to know my opinion, that is fine.

[Cleopatra]

Why did you quit Mr.Unique?



author: A Unique Person
the majority needs to be informed


Who will carry out this mission, if you quit?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Why did you quit Mr.Unique?



author: A Unique Person



Who will carry out this mission, if you quit?

it was never going to be my mission, i am not going to be the guy who solves the middle east problem. all i am doing is stating my opinion.

sharon has a history of extreme violence.

I know there is an israeli peace movement, i have read some of their information. you have assumed i don't know anything about them. i read just recently of a village that was bombed by a suicide bomber. the reason the village was bombed was it was a rare one, where the israelis and arabs had got on well with each other. the bombing was meant to end that.

from what i have seen of the IRA, what happens is a movement gets hijacked by a few people who, in other lives, would have been serial killers, but in these situations, find they are heroes. this happens on both sides of such conflicts.

[Cleopatra]

If you haven't been so harsh in your criticism, I wouldn't expect you or anyone to know anything about what Israeli civilians do for peace.

But you seem so sure and persuaded!

PEACE NOW! This is the name of the movement. When a suicide bomber explodes and kills OUR people, Israelis take candles in their hands and go out to the streets,circulate the area the bomber exploded and ask the government and the general public not to respond to the attack...And it's not only that!!

Check here :PEACE NOW! (http://www.peacenow.org.il/English.asp)

There will be a day that they will listen...

Last April, when the Jenin events took place and the Army refused to let the Red Cross to get into the camps, Israeli women, mothers of soldiers, created human shields and BROKE the forces of the Israeli Army and helped Red Cross to reach those people.

Many young Israelis soldiers prefer to go to prison than to take part in demolishing houses and properties of Palestinian civilians...

Israeli people don't really need the Zionists that drink their coctails in NY , miles away from the zone of War and expect from Israelis to realize the dream of Zion but they don't need easy and sterile criticism of Sharon government as well. This kind of criticism doesn't promote the peace process. It makes pacifists look rediculous.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by a_unique_person:
from what i have seen of the IRA, what happens is a movement gets hijacked by a few people who, in other lives, would have been serial killers, but in these situations, find they are heroes.

The raison d'etre of the IRA is the expulsion of the British presence in Ireland by force. They weren't suddenly taken over by a few psychopaths, murdering people has always been part of their philosophy.

And exactly regards the IRA as "heroes"? A few dimwits no doubt, but most people are able to see them for what they are.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
If you haven't been so harsh in your criticism, I wouldn't expect you or anyone to know anything about what Israeli civilians do for peace.

But you seem so sure and persuaded!

PEACE NOW! This is the name of the movement. When a suicide bomber explodes and kills OUR people, Israelis take candles in their hands and go out to the streets,circulate the area the bomber exploded and ask the government and the general public not to respond to the attack...And it's not only that!!

Check here :PEACE NOW! (http://www.peacenow.org.il/English.asp)

There will be a day that they will listen...

Last April, when the Jenin events took place and the Army refused to let the Red Cross to get into the camps, Israeli women, mothers of soldiers, created human shields and BROKE the forces of the Israeli Army and helped Red Cross to reach those people.

Many young Israelis soldiers prefer to go to prison than to take part in demolishing houses and properties of Palestinian civilians...

Israeli people don't really need the Zionists that drink their coctails in NY , miles away from the zone of War and expect from Israelis to realize the dream of Zion but they don't need easy and sterile criticism of Sharon government as well. This kind of criticism doesn't promote the peace process. It makes pacifists look rediculous.

there has been more than one general from the army who has gone on to try to achieve a political solution rather than a military one. Sharon has never shown any such inclination.

If you bother to search back through my posts you will see that i have referred to peace movements. don't worry, the pacifists are seen as being ridiculous without me.

i don't know why you think that they will listen some day. Sharon is doing very well with his current plan. as the heading to this topic states, this wall is not intended to keep palestinians apart so they can no longer attack each other. it is intended to imprison the palestinians. they will have a fraction of the land they had in the first place.

as for the zionists living is the US, they probably serve just the same function as the IRA living in the US, propagating death while not having to get their hands today.

[Cleopatra]

First of all. I didn't mean that you make pacifists look ridiculous.
It's the Palestinians with their attitude that make Israeli pacifists look ridiculous.

When we try to persuade people for the need to stop this War, another one explodes and kills 20 civilians and then people have this look in their face when you talk to them about peace...

You know, fear turns people into animals, however strong you might be, you cannot always control your fear. So don't expect so civilized reactions by " animals" ( she just hopes that she won't see the word "animals" mocked and used... )

What makes me think that both sides will understand? History and mathematics.

All societies in crisis, when they hit the bottom they stop. Also, crime and violence, any form of crime and violence ,have a periodical circle, in Middle east this circle lasts about 10-14 years.
The second circle comes to an end.

Of course , as a friend has once pointed out to me, circles are not good for crime, because they begin where they end...

what happens is a movement gets hijacked by a few people who, in other lives, would have been serial killers, but in these situations, find they are heroes.

This is very true and it applied to many situations. It has to do with the nature of crime and the way a society perceives Justice but this can be a topic for another thread...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
First of all. I didn't mean that you make pacifists look ridiculous.
It's the Palestinians with their attitude that make Israeli pacifists look ridiculous.



i think you will also find it was the israeli govt who made the palestinian pacifists look ridiculous long ago.



When we try to persuade people for the need to stop this War, another one explodes and kills 20 civilians and then people have this look in their face when you talk to them about peace...



if northern ireland and the balkans are anything to go by, even if peace is made, there will still be bombings.



You know, fear turns people into animals, however strong you might be, you cannot always control your fear. So don't expect so civilized reactions by " animals" ( she just hopes that she won't see the word "animals" mocked and used... )



agreed. that is part of the point of terror, which both sides have used in this context, to provoke fear and an irrational reaction.



What makes me think that both sides will understand? History and mathematics.

All societies in crisis, when they hit the bottom they stop. Also, crime and violence, any form of crime and violence ,have a periodical circle, in Middle east this circle lasts about 10-14 years.
The second circle comes to an end.


Of course , as a friend has once pointed out to me, circles are not good for crime, because they begin where they end...



yet the world has made progress, even if it is painfully slow.



This is very true and it applied to many situations. It has to do with the nature of crime and the way a society perceives Justice but this can be a topic for another thread...