Separation of church and state: a good idea?

[Jay GW]

Should all reference to religion be removed from government?

No more "In God We Trust", no moments of silence, no prayers.

All laws changed to reflect only a secular perspective?

Remove all references bar none?

[wollery]

Well I'm not American, but I voted anyway. Religion has no place in government. The government of any nation should represent all the people of that nation, and religion in the government workings automatically introduces a bias towards one set of people, i.e. those that hold to that religion.

More specifically to America, the founders of the US risked the long ocean voyage (a real risk in those days) and settled in a wild and dangerous land in order to escape the persecution of a government based on religion. That the vast majority of Americans seem to have forgotten this fact is, I think, very sad.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Jay GW
Should all reference to religion be removed from government?

No more "In God We Trust", no moments of silence, no prayers.

All laws changed to reflect only a secular perspective?
Part of the problem with "In God We Trust" and "Under God" is simple to understand: The very act of capitalizing "God" points to a particular type of god. The acts of saying that we "trust in" this god and that America is "under" are statements of a particular type of relationship with this god, a relationship which not all believers and nonbelievers in "God" will agree on.

We dont establish laws of certain religious beliefs, because that would easily qualify as a form of religious tyranny.

Wallace v. Jaffree (1985) established that a mandatory one minute period of "silent meditation or voluntary prayer" was unconstitional. Engel v. Vitale (1962), the Supreme Court ruled 7 to 1 that it was unconstitutional for a government agency like a school or government agents like public school employees to require students to recite prayers.

Remove all references bar none?
The government does not have the authority to promote nor deny religion, religious beliefs, or religious doctrines. No god is being taken off and out of everything, just official government documents.

The American government exists for all citizens, no matter what their religion or even if they have no religion at all. Its only people ignorant of this fact and theocrats who seem to have a problem with the concept seperation of church and state.

[Jay GW]

Wallace v. Jaffree (1985) established that a mandatory one minute period of "silent meditation or voluntary prayer" was unconstitional. Engel v. Vitale (1962), the Supreme Court ruled 7 to 1 that it was unconstitutional for a government agency like a school or government agents like public school employees to require students to recite prayers.

Texas public schools require a 1 minute of silence at the start of each day. This is from GW Bush's home state, now governed by his protege, Rick Perry (the next president?).

[Denise]

Originally posted by Jay GW
Texas public schools require a 1 minute of silence at the start of each day. This is from GW Bush's home state, now governed by his protege, Rick Perry (the next president?). What if my religion said I should bang a gong ever half hour? Should that be allowed in school? What if it was every five minutes? Still allowed? At what point should it be realized that faith should be practiced at home.

[American]

Hey. My reverse-psychiatry worked.


I use the eye-roll index for any crowd. If they, like, get all huffy and say "what-eveeeer", then you should go home and not offer public cadence to Allah.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Denise
What if my religion said I should bang a gong ever half hour? Should that be allowed in school? What if it was every five minutes? Still allowed? At what point should it be realized that faith should be practiced at home. I agree, Denise--I have told my son that if NH mandates prayer in school (as is proposed every legislative session!) I will write out a prayer for him, to be shouted at the top of his lungs, full of obsceneties that would make a stevedore blush. If he is called to the office, I would support him completely, shouting the same prayer on his behalf in any meeting I had with officials.

He likes the idea.

[wollery]

Originally posted by Jay GW
Texas public schools require a 1 minute of silence at the start of each day. This is from GW Bush's home state, now governed by his protege, Rick Perry (the next president?). What's wrong with a minute of silence? The religious can use it to pray to any god they so desire, the non-religious can use it to collect their thoughts before the hectic school day starts. Provided it isn't announced as a minute for personal prayer there's no problem.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by wollery
What's wrong with a minute of silence? The religious can use it to pray to any god they so desire, the non-religious can use it to collect their thoughts before the hectic school day starts. Provided it isn't announced as a minute for personal prayer there's no problem. Do we get a rebate for that minute wasted from doing what they are contracted to do?

(sorry, I just never liked minutes of silence. I have written about it elsewhere on the forum...)

[Marquis de Carabas]

While I do think the separation of church and state is a grand idea, it does get carried to extremes. Prayer in schools--definitely not. That's a direct endorsement. Moments of silence are just silly, imo.

As for "In God We Trust" on the money and such, I couldn't honestly care less. The bills could say "The Marquis de Carabas is a Dunderhead" and I'd still spend them. It just doesn't seem to me to be all that important.

Please don't kick me out of the evil atheist conspiracy or anything. It's not that I think it's "right" that the references to God abound. There are just far more worthwhile causes to devote one's energies towards (says the poster to an internet message board :D). Pick your battles, that's what Puss told me.

[jimmygun]

Religion is by its very nature exclusive. We don't pray to that god, we don't pray that way, we don't allow this, our group doesn't allow that, etc.

A democratic government by its very nature is inclusive and cannot support anything that would divide its people into this (supported) and that (non supported).

[c4ts]

Yes, dammit! It prevents other religions from taking over and enforcing political agenda through the persecution of non members. However, none of the questions you asked have to do with seperating church and state unless you take it too far to be reasonable or practical, so I don't need to answer them. Rather some of your questions would actually be more relevant in describing theocratic rule. Seperating church and state does not mean forbidding the practice of different religions among citizens, as you seem to imply, merely that there is no one "Church of America" to which everyone must belong. This hypothetical church would be integrated with government, so that laws could be passed banning all other religions, and then your questions would be relevant.

[Jay GW]

Why are capitalist countries Christian?

A democratic government by its very nature is inclusive

I don't know that democracies are immune to radicals.

[wollery]

Originally posted by Jay GW
Why are capitalist countries Christian?
They're not. Japan is Buddhist (Shinto), Saudi Arabia is Muslim, Israel is Jewish, to name but a few.

You probably mean western capitalist countries, except that France is Secular (although the majority of citizens are christian). In fact Frances secular laws are currently causing a bit of unrest among the muslim community because their girls aren't allowed to wear headscarfs to school.