Tariq Azizz Defection?

[rikzilla]

Fox is now reporting that Iraq's foreign minister Tariq Azizz has defected. I haven't seen it anywhere else. Is it true??

Originally posted by rikzilla
Fox is now reporting that Iraq's foreign minister Tariq Azizz has defected. I haven't seen it anywhere else. Is it true??
Fox says it, of course it's true! :D

If it is true, WOW.

[headscratcher4]

Ah, here's the moral question, can a man who has been the official mouthpiece of terror, torture, murder, and war etc. for so many years be allowed to defect? If Saddam is a war criminal, isn't Aziz? This man has no credibility -- regardless of whether you believe the war is a good or bad idea -- if he has defected, he should be arrested, confined, his ill-gotten goods confiscated, and turned over to the next government of Iraq to be dealt with like all who kissed the murder's boots...but that is just my opinion.

[Brown]

ABC News and Reuters (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters20030319_345.html) say no.U.S. officials on Wednesday said rumors that Iraq's Deputy Prime Minister Tareq Aziz had either defected to U.S. authorities or was shot trying to flee Baghdad were untrue.

[rikzilla]

Yahoo says maybe

"We do have reports that are as yet unconfirmed that Tariq Aziz has defected to northern Iraq to Kurdish Democratic Party territory," said Mike O'Brien, a junior Foreign Office minister. "It would be very useful to have a statement if that is confirmed."


link (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030319/ap_wo_en_po/me_gen_iraq_aziz_1)

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
Ah, here's the moral question, can a man who has been the official mouthpiece of terror, torture, murder, and war etc. for so many years be allowed to defect? If Saddam is a war criminal, isn't Aziz? This man has no credibility -- regardless of whether you believe the war is a good or bad idea -- if he has defected, he should be arrested, confined, his ill-gotten goods confiscated, and turned over to the next government of Iraq to be dealt with like all who kissed the murder's boots...but that is just my opinion.

Aziz's complicity in Saddam's war crimes will have to be investigated.

Some mitigation (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021014&s=hitchens):

I suppose I can just about bear to watch the "inspections" pantomime a second time. But what I cannot bear is the sight of French and Russian diplomats posing and smirking with Naji Sabry, Iraq's foreign minister, or with Tariq Aziz. I used to know Naji and I know that two of his brothers, Mohammed and Shukri, were imprisoned and tortured by Saddam Hussein--in Mohammed's case, tortured to death. The son of Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz was sentenced to twenty-two years of imprisonment last year; he has since been released and rearrested and released again, partly no doubt to show who is in charge. Another former friend of mine, Mazen Zahawi, was Saddam Hussein's interpreter until shortly after the Gulf War, when he was foully murdered and then denounced as a homosexual. I have known many regimes where stories of murder and disappearance are the common talk among the opposition; the Iraqi despotism is salient in that such horrors are also routine among its functionaries. Saddam Hussein likes to use as envoys the men he has morally destroyed; men who are sick with fear and humiliation, and whose families are hostages.

MattJ

[renata]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
Ah, here's the moral question, can a man who has been the official mouthpiece of terror, torture, murder, and war etc. for so many years be allowed to defect? If Saddam is a war criminal, isn't Aziz? This man has no credibility -- regardless of whether you believe the war is a good or bad idea -- if he has defected, he should be arrested, confined, his ill-gotten goods confiscated, and turned over to the next government of Iraq to be dealt with like all who kissed the murder's boots...but that is just my opinion.


Ditto

Without people like Aziz, people like Saddam could not exist. The answer "everybody was doing it" does not wash- not everybody had to be at the senior levels of a corrupt government. He could have chosen not to participate in government altogether. He is the Goebbels of the Iraqi regime, and should be treated accordingly. Giving him reprieve because he decided to join the winning team at the last minute (if the story is true) is repugnant.

[aerocontrols]

National Review says that Aziz just appeared live on television from Baghdad.

[richardm]

It didn't save Rudolf Hess.

[headscratcher4]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/32/31/5m/story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=615&e=1&u=/nm/20030319/pl_nm/iraq_usa_rumors_dc

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
Ah, here's the moral question, can a man who has been the official mouthpiece of terror, torture, murder, and war etc. for so many years be allowed to defect? If Saddam is a war criminal, isn't Aziz? This man has no credibility -- regardless of whether you believe the war is a good or bad idea -- if he has defected, he should be arrested, confined, his ill-gotten goods confiscated, and turned over to the next government of Iraq to be dealt with like all who kissed the murder's boots...but that is just my opinion.

Azizz is the only real career diplomat left in Iraq's government. I've heard some speculation that Saddam kept him on because he was respected in the international community, and kept him on a leash by way of his family.

-z

[Barkhorn1x]

"Saddam Hussein likes to use as envoys the men he has morally destroyed; men who are sick with fear and humiliation, and whose families are hostages."

It appears that Azziz's son has been arrested and released a couple of times.

We'll know in a week or so how loyal the "inner circle" turn out to be. My guess is not very - which will mean a bunch of these guys singing like canaries to save their own skins.

I also believe that these tales will prove to be quite embarrasing to certain centrally located, obstructionist European countries (and probably the US as well to some extent - although that news won't prove to be nearly as "fresh" as the rest of it).

Regards,
Barkhorn.

[Brown]

CNN says no, (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/19/sprj.irq.aziz/index.html) and so (apparently) does Aziz.

[Cleopatra]

According to Media sources, this was a British trick to force Azizz to appear and see where he was hiding…

Those who remember the events of WWII, will agree that this, looks British enough!!!



bows deeply, to the direction of the island of Great Britain; the only real Empire of Modern Era…

Sighs and wishes she could boast that in her career she has seduced (and then abandoned) Sir Winston too…
Julius Caesar, Mark Anthony, Sir Winston, Tom Ford...( Stop here!!!!)
THIS would be a royal collection….

[iain]

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x
I also believe that these tales will prove to be quite embarrasing to certain centrally located, obstructionist European countries (and probably the US as well to some extent - although that news won't prove to be nearly as "fresh" as the rest of it).

Regards,
Barkhorn. Surely we already have a good idea of how nasty Saddam's regime is. I guess we might find out some more details but I can't imagine anything will be discovered that will make people say "wow, and I thought Saddam was quite a nice guy."

I can't see why it would embarass the European countries or the US : none have claimed that Saddam is a nice guy; the debate has been about the best way to deal with him.

[headscratcher4]

I can't see why it would embarass the European countries or the US : none have claimed that Saddam is a nice guy; the debate has been about the best way to deal with him.

Indeed, until he invaded Kuwait, no one in the West (the US included) was particularly worried or embarassed by Saddam, his henchmen or his murderous ways...but, of course, we now know evil and will never be fooled again...at least until the next time it happens.

[Reginald]

Originally posted by iain
Surely we already have a good idea of how nasty Saddam's regime is. I guess we might find out some more details but I can't imagine anything will be discovered that will make people say "wow, and I thought Saddam was quite a nice guy."

I can't see why it would embarass the European countries or the US : none have claimed that Saddam is a nice guy; the debate has been about the best way to deal with him.

No but we may find things that make us say "I didn't realise he was that bad". Wait till they find the graves.

As for Tariq "Dr Strangelove" Aziz, who would want him?

[iain]

Originally posted by Reginald


No but we may find things that make us say "I didn't realise he was that bad". Wait till they find the graves. True. We found those last time too, of course (e.g. Iraqi soldiers pulling babies out of incubators and leaving them to die) before finding out that much of it was invented by the allies.

Time will tell...

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by iain
True. We found those last time too, of course (e.g. Iraqi soldiers pulling babies out of incubators and leaving them to die) before finding out that much of it was invented by the allies.

Time will tell...

Remember tho....we had no firm evidence how big and invasive the East German Stasi was until all their files were recovered intact in E. Berlin....

[UnrepentantSinner]

I was too busy watching the lucious Kelly O'Donnell in NBC to catch this. But despite the apparent (or obvious if you're an O'Reilly Factor watcher) error on Fox News, I can't say that I'd be surprised that if there was going to be any of the highest echelons of Iraqi leadership that Trariq Aziz would be one of the first.

He's been to New York after all. Surely he's had a Nathan's and knows how wonderful democracy really is.

[Brown]

Is it too far-fetched to suggest the following?

The coalition forces spread the rumor that Aziz was dead. The rumors were given some credence. The rumors forced Aziz to come forward to make a public appearance. From this, the coalition forces confirmed that rumors could be spread inside Iraq.

Later in the day, the coalition forces took a pot shot at Saddam, but didn't know whether they'd gotten him. Perhaps rumors were quickly circulated that Saddam was dead, too, and Saddam would have to be a complete idiot not to realize that, if these rumors were believed, his forces might lay down their arms. So Saddam was forced to make a public appearance, too.

As a result, the coalition forces found out whether or not they'd gotten him (they didn't) and also might have acquired some intelligence about his location.

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by Brown
Is it too far-fetched to suggest the following?

The coalition forces spread the rumor that Aziz was dead. The rumors were given some credence. The rumors forced Aziz to come forward to make a public appearance. From this, the coalition forces confirmed that rumors could be spread inside Iraq.

Later in the day, the coalition forces took a pot shot at Saddam, but didn't know whether they'd gotten him. Perhaps rumors were quickly circulated that Saddam was dead, too, and Saddam would have to be a complete idiot not to realize that, if these rumors were believed, his forces might lay down their arms. So Saddam was forced to make a public appearance, too.

As a result, the coalition forces found out whether or not they'd gotten him (they didn't) and also might have acquired some intelligence about his location.

Though it is likely part of the misinformation campaign, there seems to be "official" doubt as to whether the Saddam who appeared was the real Saddam or not (he is known to have many doubles). ALso, say you got him last night (I doubt it, but...) and you're one of the Hussien boys, might you not put up a fake-dad to keep things going? Or a Baathist, about to be slaughtered by the populace when the regieme falls, might you not use a fake Saddam to buy time?

Anyway, I don't think they got him...but watching the mis-dis- information war will be interesting...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60695-2003Mar20.html

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by iain
True. We found those last time too, of course (e.g. Iraqi soldiers pulling babies out of incubators and leaving them to die) before finding out that much of it was invented by the allies.

Time will tell...

I have to point out that the Iraqi/incubator story was a fabrication, the "witness" in the congressional hearings was the daughter of a Kuwaiti embassador.

This regime has done enough bad things, but we do not want to perpetuate falsehoods.

[renata]

CNN reporting Aziz is in US custody. This time for real. They promise.

Edited to add the CNN link http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/24/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html

[Bearguin]

WSJ says the same thing.

BUSINESS ALERT
from The Wall Street Journal


April 24, 2003

Tariq Aziz, Iraq's deputy prime minister, is in U.S. custody, Pentagon
officials said Thursday. By many measures Mr. Aziz, the only
Christian in Saddam Hussein's inner circle, was the second most famous
person in the regime. Defiant to the end, in early April Mr. Aziz said
the U.S. wouldn't be able to capture Baghdad.

For the full story see:
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB105118858091846000,00.hmtl

(you may need to subscribe)

[compjan]

Sweet!

Where's minister Al-Sahaf when we need to get the truth? I just can't believe those infidels at CNN.