Historical precedence vis-Ã_-vis the DALTON legal challenge

[Major Billy]

Precisely 25 years ago today, the Institute for Historical Review, a sleazy bunch of holocaust deniers (http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/bothsides.shtml) and anti-Semites (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html) held a conference at Northrop University in Los Angeles where they offered a reward of $50,000 to anyone who could prove that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.

Much to their surprise Mr. Mel Mermelstein, a gentlemen with some familiarity of Nazi concentration camps applied for the reward (http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/denial/mervsIHR.txt) in 1980.

Unsurprisingly the IHR refused to pay the reward or to examine Mr. Mermelstein's evidence.

Mr. Mermelstein sued them and won (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/m/mermelstein.mel/mermelstein.order.072285) the $50,000 bucks, an apology, and another $40,000 for legal costs.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Major Billy
Precisely 25 years ago today, the Institute for Historical Review, a sleazy bunch of holocaust deniers (http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/bothsides.shtml) and anti-Semites (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html) held a conference at Northrop University in Los Angeles where they offered a reward of $50,000 to anyone who could prove that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.

Much to their surprise Mr. Mel Mermelstein, a gentlemen with some familiarity of Nazi concentration camps applied for the reward (http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/denial/mervsIHR.txt) in 1980.

Unsurprisingly the IHR refused to pay the reward or to examine Mr. Mermelstein's evidence.

Mr. Mermelstein sued them and won (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/m/mermelstein.mel/mermelstein.order.072285) the $50,000 bucks, an apology, and another $40,000 for legal costs.

1. I don't recall a DALTON legal challenge. Do you have a link?

2. I admire your ability -- nads even -- in implicity linking Randi with Hitler. It's a stupid and weak linkage, but you did manage it. Perhaps you should consider of a career in politics.

3. Unlike 'that group', Randi uses third parties to substantiate claims.

[Hand Bent Spoon]

So to you, DALTON's rock is every bit as extraordinary as he claims, just as the Holocaust is every bit as real as historians and survivors have proven? Because that's what you are suggesting.

[Major Billy]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
I don't recall a DALTON legal challenge.
1. Do you have a link?Yes - Scroll down about two inches (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45149) and you'll see it.

2. I admire your abilityIt's not that good a post - :th: - Something's wrong with one of us...


2. I admire your nadsSomething's wrong with you.


2. I admire your implicity linking Randi with Hitler.I never "implicity" linked Randi with Hitler! I'm not even sure what "implicity" means.


2. It's a stupid and weak linkage,And you still admire me! Despite my stupid weaknesses. Your a Saint.

3. Unlike 'that group', Randi uses third parties to substantiate claims.You have convinced me. I'll be donating $100 to the JREF tonight.

[Major Billy]

Originally posted by Hand Bent Spoon
So to you, DALTON's rock is every bit as extraordinary as he claims?Damn straight! We agree with Carl Sagan's: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/aliens/carlsagan.html)."

[Loon]

Originally posted by Major Billy
Damn straight! We agree with Carl Sagan's: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/aliens/carlsagan.html)."

Are you implying that you have seen proof of the extraordinary nature of DALTON's rock?

[Major Billy]

Originally posted by Loon
Are you implying that you have seen proof of the extraordinary nature of DALTON's rock?

No.

[Zep]

Then what ARE you saying, MB? That DALTON is going to file a legal challenge against Randi on some grounds? That there is completely verifiable proof of DALTON's chunk of concrete doing what he claims? Whatever? Perhaps you had better explain yourself clearly so we can all understand what you are saying.

[Carn]

Originally posted by Major Billy
Precisely 25 years ago today, the Institute for Historical Review, a sleazy bunch of holocaust deniers (http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/bothsides.shtml) and anti-Semites (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html) held a conference at Northrop University in Los Angeles where they offered a reward of $50,000 to anyone who could prove that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.

Much to their surprise Mr. Mel Mermelstein, a gentlemen with some familiarity of Nazi concentration camps applied for the reward (http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/denial/mervsIHR.txt) in 1980.

Unsurprisingly the IHR refused to pay the reward or to examine Mr. Mermelstein's evidence.

Mr. Mermelstein sued them and won (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/m/mermelstein.mel/mermelstein.order.072285) the $50,000 bucks, an apology, and another $40,000 for legal costs.

I cannot see what the problem is, in this case the IHR lost, because Mermelstein did prove the holocaust.

So if DALTON can prove his rock is para normal before the judge falls over laughing he gets his million, just as he could have goten it via normal challenge.

Only its very bad manner to go to court on such a fraud(if his rock is not working as claimed) or bad manner not to try to solve this without going to court. Poor JREF:(

Wait, i see a reason, via court DALTON has a chance to get a high energy expert investigating the thing and let later pay JREF the bill:D .

Carn

[Sujay]

Thankfully, any judge will have better sense and a higher IQ than that of Major Billy, to clearly see the difference between idiotic Dalton's stupid claims, and the denial of the holocaust. As I said, this case is headed to be the fastest dismissal ever. Dalton is going to deservedly lose every penny he put on this case, and not only that, after that I'd like to see JREF contersue Dalton, for wasting their precious time, money and energy. Dalton is going to be on the streets very soon, and he deserves it every bit!!!

[Zep]

Hello? Is this thing on? SOMEBODY!

What is this thread about? Has DALTON decided to sue Randi? I sort of gather by inference he has, but it would be good to see some real facts for a change...

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Zep
Hello? Is this thing on? SOMEBODY!

What is this thread about? Has DALTON decided to sue Randi? I sort of gather by inference he has, but it would be good to see some real facts for a change...
Come on, Zep. Try to keep up. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45149) ;)

I think Major Billy has provided some excellent information about what can happen when "offer of reward for proof" claims go to court. I don't think his "implicity" is that Dalton's claim is remotely similar to that of the holocaust survivor.

Personally, I would love to see Dalton have his day in court. I don't believe there is a jury in the world that stupid. But I admit, the limits of jury stupidity have never been established.

[rppa]

Originally posted by Tricky
Come on, Zep. Try to keep up. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45149) ;)

Every time I try to view that thread, Mozilla crashes. Is anyone else experiencing anything like that, and does anyone have any insight?

[steenkh]

Originally posted by rppa
Every time I try to view that thread, Mozilla crashes. Is anyone else experiencing anything like that, and does anyone have any insight?
My Mozilla does not crash. Perhaps it is because you are located closer to the high energy stone than I am?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by steenkh
My Mozilla does not crash. Perhaps it is because you are located closer to the high energy stone than I am?
No, it's because your Mozilla was crushed by my Ming Mong.
Oh, wait... :p :D

[Major Billy]

Originally posted by Sujay
any judge will have better sense and a higher IQ than that of Major BillyWell, you're not exactly setting them a very high threshold to beat: :dio:
(Although GW Bush appointees might have a problem :bricks: )

[Sujay]

Well, you're not exactly setting them a very high threshold to beat:
(Although GW Bush appointees might have a problem)


Well it doesnt take great intelligence to figure out the difference between Dalton's claims and the denial of the holocaust, so threshold in this case is so low, even a judge appointed by the great GWB will have little to no problem in discerning how laughably weak Dalton's claims are.

Infact Dalton's claims will make even the judges appointed by George W. Bush unlax in misconceptions of their intelligence. :p :p :p

[scratchy]

The only thing shown here is that it is unwise to put up a "lots-a-bucks"-challenge promising a reward to anyone who can disprove an absurd pseudoscientific claim.

[exarch]

Originally posted by rppa
Every time I try to view that thread, Mozilla crashes. Is anyone else experiencing anything like that, and does anyone have any insight?Upgrade ...

(My FireFox didn't have any problem).

[Major Billy]

Originally posted by Sujay
Well it doesnt take great intelligence to figure out the difference between Dalton's claims and the denial of the holocaust.It also takes little intelligence to post childish ad-homonym attacks.

Sujay’s shrill and emotional defense of holocaust deniers contains no reasoning and no evidence. If she really believes in the denier’s case she should make a reasoned case for it, instead of blindly attacking those who do not believe as she does.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Major Billy
It also takes little intelligence to post childish ad-homonym attacks.

If you are pretentious enough to write in Latin, please learn how to spell hominem.

Sujay’s shrill and emotional defense of holocaust deniers contains no reasoning and no evidence. If she really believes in the denier’s case she should make a reasoned case for it, instead of blindly attacking those who do not believe as she does.
I have read what Sujay has written. I have read what you say that Sujay has written. You are lying or insane. Sujay has not defended holocaust deniers. Sujay does not "believe in the denier's case". Sujay is not "blindly attacking" people who believe that the Holocaust took place.

Please do not make vicious, hideous, hate-filled attacks on new posters, especially if you have to lie from beginning to end in order to do so, as this makes you look like a vicious, hideous, hate-filled liar.

[Kimpatsu]

Where are the moderators when ou need them? :(

[Major Billy]

Originally posted by Dr Adequite
You are lying or insane. You look like a vicious, hideous, hate-filled liar. Your mean.

Well, maybe I'm wrong here, and Adequite is right. Wouldn't be the first time.

Here's what Sujay said:Thankfully, any judge will have better sense and a higher IQ than that of Major BillyHere's what Adequite said:Sujay is not "blindly attacking" people who believe that the Holocaust took place.Please explain to this "low-IQ" guy how that was not an "ad-homonim attack"?

...edited to say that I can spell neither "pretentious" nor "ad-homonim".

[Major Billy]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
please learn how to spellI'm not surprised that Mr Adequate is afraid to respond directly to my challenge, as he is pretty much the master of childish personal attacks himself:Originally posted by Dr Adequate
Are you some sort of fascist? And now I'm criticising what you've written. Next thing you know I'll be burning books and having people shot. If you have any criticisms of what I've posted ---- keep them to yourself, you filthy StalinistOriginally posted by Dr Adequate
Look up "censorship" before you are vulgar and stupid enough to accuse M.E.S. of itOriginally posted by Dr Adequate
It takes this woman at least three minutes to detect soundOriginally posted by Dr Adequate
Fnarf, snort

[Anders]

Originally posted by Major Billy
Precisely 25 years ago today, the Institute for Historical Review, a sleazy bunch of holocaust deniers (http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/bothsides.shtml) and anti-Semites (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html) held a conference at Northrop University in Los Angeles where they offered a reward of $50,000 to anyone who could prove that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.

Much to their surprise Mr. Mel Mermelstein, a gentlemen with some familiarity of Nazi concentration camps applied for the reward (http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/denial/mervsIHR.txt) in 1980.

Unsurprisingly the IHR refused to pay the reward or to examine Mr. Mermelstein's evidence.

Mr. Mermelstein sued them and won (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/m/mermelstein.mel/mermelstein.order.072285) the $50,000 bucks, an apology, and another $40,000 for legal costs.
This post shows that it is possible to win a prize if it is based scientific investigation of the claims. In this case it was of course a slam dunk, as tons on scientific evidence exist of the atrocities committed by the nazi regime in Germany.

The JREF prize works the same way, by scientific investigation of the claims.

But I guess that the Major has other intentions.

[Anders]

Oh, this is about the Dalton rock! I understand!

Interesting woo-woo page, that alienrockwherediditcomefrom.com. I haven’t read the whole thing, but the non-lionizing radiation bit just cracks me up :D . Talk about the worst case of misunderstanding and conspiracy belief.

From the page about non-lionizing radiation:

“When this beam was intensified and ice was introduced to
this beam, the radiation beam instantly stopped ice melting at
room temperature. The ice went into a state of suspended
animation. The charged density pulse test attempted to explain
this phenomenon.�

So, it seems that some sort of beam is coming from the rock, and it makes ice not melt?

Well, that’s testable, so what’s the problem? Oh, I guess that the people behind that rock, don’t want to apply for the JREF challenge, or they don’t commit to the rules.

[exarch]

Originally posted by Anders
So, it seems that some sort of beam is coming from the rock, and it makes ice not melt?

Well, that’s testable, so what’s the problem? Oh, I guess that the people behind that rock, don’t want to apply for the JREF challenge, or they don’t commit to the rules.That's what the JREF said, except Mr Dalton wanted to have a high energy scientist present (if you know what that is, you know more than the rest of us).

Our argument was that you didn't need a scientist of any kind to determine if ice was melting (or not melting).
Not wanting to allow Dalton to weasel out this way, Randi in the end assured Dalton he was allowed to bring his own "high energy scientist" (if he can even find one) along to the testing. In fact, this was never against the rules anyway. Except JREF won't be paying for that scientist to be there.

I think most of the hoopla on this thread was about Dalton's misinterpretation of a statement by Randi to mean that scientists would have to be present for the test to be according to the rules, and that Randi would invalidate the protocol by refusing to have one there. Other people merely suggested that one wasn't needed.

Frankly, it looked as though Dalton was trying to weasel out of the test by coming up with some nonsense excuse (as most of the applicants do). Only to be able to put on his website that he wasn't able to win the JREF million because Randi wouldn't let him try :rolleyes:

[Anders]

Thanks exarch! In other words, the Dalton case is business as usual for JREF.

[exarch]

Originally posted by Anders
Thanks exarch! In other words, the Dalton case is business as usual for JREF.Pretty much, yes :)

[Dr Adequate]

Your challenge?
Originally posted by Major Billy

Here's what Sujay said:
Thankfully, any judge will have better sense and a higher IQ than that of Major Billy

It is for you, you flaming woo, to show that this statement, which appearts to be 100% true, constitutes a "shrill and emotional defense of holocaust deniers" as you posted. Off you go.