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1inChrist
7th September 2004, 01:23 AM
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?

Maledict
7th September 2004, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?

Which lord? God? G-D? Shiva? Jehova? Yahweh? Ed? I can't repent to something that I do not think has evidence to substantiate that it exists.

The Cats Venm
7th September 2004, 01:32 AM
No

No, because God does not exist.
No, because everything I've heard tells me it wouldn't work anyway.
No, because I can't imagine an eternal afterlife that would appeal.
No, because the very idea of judgement is rediculous.
No, because I'm sick of being asked such a dumb question.

Zep
7th September 2004, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven? Which heaven would that be? There seem to be so many on offer currently... There's even jokes about tall brick walls in heaven to keep the separate denominations apart so they don't fight.

And what's the alternatives? I'm sure you are thinking of "Hell" as the only alternative to "Heaven", but that's blinkered thinking, surely. What about the concept of simply dying and ceasing to exist, except as pleasant memories in your descendants' minds. Or your "spirit" walking the earth unseen. There's so many alternatives people have imagined already, so who's to say that your idea of "heaven" is the same as anyone else's at all?

And let's, for sake of argument, allow that this last-minute repentance is real, and you receive complete divine forgiveness regardless of your whole life's indiscretions. Would that not mean there's years yet for me to be indiscrete? You see, I don't plan on dying any time soon, so why should I worry yet?

Anyway the chances are I'll never know when my "last minute" will start (it could be right now as I type - the building might suddenly collapse on me right now.......{looks up, listens}........nope, that wasn't it :) ). And I don't know how long this repentance process takes (clearly less than 60 seconds, it seems). Maybe it's just that split-second before I die...and I think I can manage that if I have to.

Well, overall I'd say it seems the whole idea you pose has issues that need to be resolved a lot better before you think it is viable. Work on it, let us know what you think!

Oleron
7th September 2004, 02:05 AM
I'll assume you're talking about a protestant christian god.
No I would not repent.
Any god that would be fooled by such a cheap meaningless gesture isn't worth repenting for.

If this god exists then he made me intelligent, with a curious and inquiring mind. The least he can do is treat me like an adult instead of playing silly semantic games.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 02:29 AM
?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Let me rephrase this.............

If you had 1 minute left to live would you repent to the Lord just incase He is real and Hell does exist.

Flo
7th September 2004, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by Oleron

Any god that would be fooled by such a cheap meaningless gesture isn't worth repenting for.


What Oleron said.

bjornart
7th September 2004, 02:35 AM
Who knows. Having one minute to live and being aware of the fact might drive anyone insane.

Wudang
7th September 2004, 02:35 AM
Let me ask you ....
If you had 1 minute left to live would you repent to the Invisible Pink Unicorn just in case He is real and Hell does exist?

And to answer your question:
No, I'd spend it saying goodbye to my wife.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 02:37 AM
Why not repent to Him, what do you have to lose?

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Wudang
Let me ask you ....
If you had 1 minute left to live would you repent to the Invisible Pink Unicorn just in case He is real and Hell does exist?

And to answer your question:
No, I'd spend it saying goodbye to my wife.

Invisible pink unicorn? How can something be pink and invisible? Sorry I have never heard of invisble pink unicorn that sends people to Hell.

Flo
7th September 2004, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why not repent to Him, what do you have to lose?

Are you here to debate a philosophical point, or to preach ?

The Cats Venm
7th September 2004, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why not repent to Him, what do you have to lose?

The last minute of your life.

Zep
7th September 2004, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why not repent to Him, what do you have to lose? Ho hum - Pascal's Wager has been done to death here a few times over. Please go look for it, then report back.

wittgenst3in
7th September 2004, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist

Let me rephrase this.............

If you had 1 minute left to live would you repent to the Lord just incase He is real and Hell does exist.

Can you please define exactly what you mean by 'repent'?

If you just mean being sorry for bad things that I've done, then I'm 'repentent' now. The notion of god dosen't enter into it.

The Cats Venm
7th September 2004, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Sorry I have never heard of invisble pink unicorn that sends people to Hell.

You have now.

Start repenting, the IPU demands at least 5 minutes of your life, not neccesarily at the end. That will give you time to start on all the other gods. Wouldn't want to miss one - just in case.

Zep
7th September 2004, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Invisible pink unicorn? How can something be pink and invisible? Sorry I have never heard of invisble pink unicorn that sends people to Hell. Wow. You have the beginnings of a skeptical thought right there! Well done!

Now we take another step, OK?

By what means can a non-believer determine if God exists? Is there ANYTHING he could measure - touch, mass, heat, transparency, whatever - that would physically demonstrate God's personal existance to a non-believer?

Stimpson J. Cat
7th September 2004, 02:50 AM
1inChrist,

Let me rephrase this.............

If you had 1 minute left to live would you repent to the Lord just incase He is real and Hell does exist.

First of all, I cannot repent to a God I don't believe exists. Even if I thought there was some non-zero chance of the Christian God existing, and that my repenting to him might get me into Heaven, since I don't actually believe that this is the case, my repentance would not be sincere, so what would be the point?

Second, I do not consider Christian mythology to be any more likely to be correct than any other mythology man has dreamed up. I am no more concerned that I will go to the Christian Hell when I die, than I am that will go to Valhalla.

Let me ask you something. If somebody came up to you and told you that they could give you testicular cancer with the power of their mind, and demanded that you give them 1 dollar, or they will do so, would you give them the dollar?

You probably think that the above question is rather silly, but I assure you that, as an atheist, your question sounds just as silly to me.


Dr. Stupid

Wudang
7th September 2004, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Invisible pink unicorn? How can something be pink and invisible? Sorry I have never heard of invisble pink unicorn that sends people to Hell.

Old argument, see also the references to Pascal's Wager, which your question is a variant of. There are a number of so-called proofs of God for which you can replace the word "God" with the phrase "Invisible Pink Unicorn" without changing the argument. Therefore such "proofs" are also "proofs" of the IUP.

Piscivore
7th September 2004, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
?????????????????????????????????????????????????

I think, 1, that your confusion stems from making a common error that christians often make about what "atheist" means; you seem to think that "atheists" are just in "rebellion" against a god that is assumed to exist. This is not the case. There are several recent threads addressing this issue, you would do well to look for them.

My answer; no. For all the reasons the others have said. I might as well appeal to the Tralfamadorians- both they, and the "god" of the bible are characters in fiction.

Ceinwyn
7th September 2004, 03:15 AM
Only if he showed me, in one minute, why I should.

Ceinwyn
7th September 2004, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by Piscivore
My answer; no. For all the reasons the others have said. I might as well appeal to the Tralfamadorians- both they, and the "god" of the bible are characters in fiction. Aha, another Vonnegut fan. Very good.

CFLarsen
7th September 2004, 03:22 AM
I wouldn't spend my last minute on Earth wondering if I had anything to be sorry for.

I would spend it drinking the last glass of Amarone, looking at Canaletto for the last time, while listening to Bach.

And smile.

Lord Emsworth
7th September 2004, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?



No, I don't think so.

Would you reject Christ if I made up something about people being thown to hell for being a Chrsitian?

wittgenst3in
7th September 2004, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by CFLarsen

I would spend it drinking the last glass of Amarone, looking at Canaletto for the last time, while listening to Bach.

And smile.

Nice.

I'd choose Beethoven's 7th Symphony.

Ceinwyn
7th September 2004, 03:30 AM
I do love when the fundiies--I mean trolls show up. They're so interesting.

CFLarsen
7th September 2004, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by wittgenst3in
Nice.

Thank you.

Originally posted by wittgenst3in
I'd choose Beethoven's 7th Symphony.

Well, that's a contendah. Which movement?

Brian the Snail
7th September 2004, 03:32 AM
Pffttt...amateurs. Look, I'm the hardest of the hardcore atheists, and I know what I would do.

I'd kick God in the nuts.

Donks
7th September 2004, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist

If you had 1 minute left to live would you repent to the Lord just incase He is real and Hell does exist.

Conversion through fear...
Would you believe in God if there was no penatly for not doing so? In other words, would you believe in God if you ended up in heaven depending on how you lived your life and not if you "repented"?

Cleopatra
7th September 2004, 03:39 AM
Which lord? God? G-D? Shiva? Jehova? Yahweh? Ed? I can't repent to something that I do not think has evidence to substantiate that it exists.

It's amazing how much energy all of you spend in order to address trollish posts but I found this reply really interesting because it demonstrates that most of you when it comes to Religion you do not really know of what you are talking about.

Buddha, Christ, Jehova, Yahweh, Zeus are names people use to describe the same feeling or the same experience. The fact that there are as many words as the languages in order to describe love, joy, fear doesn't mean that those experiences do not exist.

So,this logic is totally fallacious and personally I cannot distinguish it from religious fundamentalism.

CWL
7th September 2004, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Let me rephrase this.............

If you had 1 minute left to live would you repent to the Lord just incase He is real and Hell does exist.

Let me put rephrase the answers given thus far.

There are and have been more gods invented/imagined than the one that you are referring to.

Why repent to your god, "He" is - as far as has been proven thus far - no less real than the other ones.

Would you repent and ask Thor and Odin to let you into Valhalla if you had 1 minute left to live, just in case they are real and the deathrealm of Hel exists?

Brian the Snail
7th September 2004, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
Buddha, Christ, Jehova, Yahweh, Zeus are names people use to describe the same feeling or the same experience. The fact that there are as many words as the languages in order to describe love, joy, fear doesn't mean that those experiences do not exist.

But how does one repent to a feeling or an experience? And what would be the point?

neutrino_cannon
7th September 2004, 03:44 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?

If I knew that I would expire within the next sixty seconds, I would first fill the air with curses at Lovecraft or whatever crank author had put me in such a regrettable position.

As an interesting aside, what if I'm moving at relativistic speeds, whose reference time is used to determine my last remaining minute?

With that out of the way (or more accurately, into the way), the next question would become that of avoiding my demise within the next sixty seconds. If it involves emptying a full magazine from any submachine gun into nearby guards operating a bond-esque deliberately slow execution device, I'm all for it.

Assuming however (and I'm good at assuming), that I can do nothing about my impending death, I'd probably say something I thought was witty through all the adrenaline to anyone who happened to be passing by.

The thought of the Lord would not be particularly pressing, since I don't believe in him. If I did believe in Him/Her(which seems more likely somehow), and also believed that a ritual repenting of my assorted sins could bestow upon me eternal partying time with the Almighty, then I would have done so long ago.

The fact that it is possible that there is a being who looks unfavorably upon those that don't lick his boots, follow his every command, and generally act like His groupies does not much perturb me. I find it equally possible that there is a deity who hates groveling and despises those who repent, especially when they never pented in the first place.

In short, I do not repent to the Lord because I do not consider it a valuable expenditure of my time. If the last moments of my life were imminent, I would be even less inclined to do so because the laws of supply and demand just made it imperative that my life be enjoyed to its fullest. Brown nosing to some unverifiable being in the hopes that it will somehow improve my standing in the cosmic hereafter is an activity that receives very low priority under such circumstances.

edit:

D'oh!

Welcome to the forum 1inChrist


-The insomniac, amiable and always impressionable master cannon

Ceinwyn
7th September 2004, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
It's amazing how much energy all of you spend in order to address trollish posts but I found this reply really interesting because it demonstrates that most of you when it comes to Religion you do not really know of what you are talking about.

Buddha, Christ, Jehova, Yahweh, Zeus are names people use to describe the same feeling or the same experience. The fact that there are as many words as the languages in order to describe love, joy, fear doesn't mean that those experiences do not exist.

So,this logic is totally fallacious and personally I cannot distinguish it from religious fundamentalism. Oh, okay Cleo. How about you get a bunch of Christians, Buddhists, Muslims and Jews in a room together and tell them how they're all having the same experience.

That'll work, right?

wittgenst3in
7th September 2004, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by CFLarsen
Well, that's a contendah. Which movement?
Uhh..... I don't know :(
The only recording I've got isn't split into tracks, and I'm not sure. (And I've been through 2 record stores trying to find a better version, plenty of 9's but no one likes the 7th.)

6:29-7:29 out of the 39 minutes of my recording is probably what I'd choose in one of those unlikely scenarios that involve exactly one minute to live, and access to a well stocked stereo.

Cleopatra
7th September 2004, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by Ceinwyn
Oh, okay Cleo. How about you get a bunch of Christians, Buddhists, Muslims and Jews in a room together and tell them how they're all having the same experience.

That'll work, right? Probably you haven't heard much about the dialogue that is taking place among different religions lately.

Ceinwyn
7th September 2004, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
Probably you haven't heard much about the dialogue that is taking place among different religions lately. I guess not. Are they all deciding on one god now? Which god did they pick? Is Jesus going to be a runner-up, with a sash and a trophy that says "Best Saviour for the last 2000 years"?

Zep
7th September 2004, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
Probably you haven't heard much about the dialogue that is taking place among different religions lately. But alas, not among some major religionists...

Cleopatra
7th September 2004, 04:12 AM
Ceinwyn:

You have to decide if you wish to discuss seriously, when you take up this decision I will address your post. Untill then I suggest you address the posts of the troll who started the thread especially if you feel that he is within your calibre.

Cleopatra
7th September 2004, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by Zep
But alas, not among some major religionists... Hmmm wrong, unless you do not consider the Pope to be one of the major religionists. I mentioned the dialogue between religions to point another very common fallacious reasoning of this forum; that people from diffirent religions automatically are not aware of the fact that in reality they believe in the same notion. Of course one can encounter the same fallacious reasoning in the Politics Forum where people seem to believe that today people are involved in wars because of religion where in reality religion is just the pretense.

I expected better from people who claim that approach critically the opinions that are en vogue...

MRC_Hans
7th September 2004, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
Probably you haven't heard much about the dialogue that is taking place among different religions lately. Assuming you are not referring to the "dialogue", the results of which fill a large part of the news, I would venture to say that once a constructive dialoque between different religions is carried to its conclusion, that conclusion will be agnosticism.

Which, incientially, is a conclusion I would applaud ;).

Hans

Ceinwyn
7th September 2004, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
Ceinwyn:

You have to decide if you wish to discuss seriously, when you take up this decision I will address your post. Untill then I suggest you address the posts of the troll who started the thread especially if you feel that he is within your calibre. I was quite serious, Cleo. I find your ideas naive and simplistic, which is odd because I used to enjoy your posts.

Cleopatra
7th September 2004, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Assuming you are not referring to the "dialogue", the results of which fill a large part of the news, I would venture to say that once a constructive dialoque between different religions is carried to its conclusion, that conclusion will be agnosticism.

Which, incientially, is a conclusion I would applaud ;).

Hans

I know what you mean and you are right of course but I think that we have to distinguish between the religious notion or feeling or phaenomenon and the churches/religious institutions. There is no way for the latter to agree on what you propose the same way that national parliaments of different countries( that have replaced the religious institutions in western democracies) will never agree to let aside their differences.

But to return to the religion and push the discussion a bit further I do not see why perceiving deity in a different way is a problem. You, Hans grew up by playing with the snow , I grew up in the desert, I see difficult for the two of us to have similar idea of what constitutes deity.

The opening post while was phrased in a silly manner posed a question. Is fear an enough reason for an atheist to resort to deity? I guess that only atheists who have faced danger and fear can give an accurate answer.

Ceinwyn
7th September 2004, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
IThe opening post while was phrased in a silly manner posed a question. Is fear an enough reason for an atheist to resort to deity? I guess that only atheists who have faced danger and fear can give an accurate answer. The opening post was a very obvious gambit that religious people sometimes use because they are convinced, convinced that atheists are merely wayward children who don't know what's best for them.

You know what? I'm not a wayward child. I have faced death. I have faced fear. I got through both without calling to any god.

I know that's probably astonishing, but it's true.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?
No.
I would not waste my time muttering under my breath to a sky fairy that does not exist. Nor would I waste that time talking to Leprechauns, unicorns, chimera, the invisible friend I had when I was five years old, Lucius Malfoy, or any other imaginary being, either.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Let me rephrase this.............

If you had 1 minute left to live would you repent to the Lord just incase He is real and Hell does exist.
Which lord? Shiva? Buddha? Allah? Yahweh? The pixie with tiny silver bells in his toecaps? Oh, yeah, and then there's wossisname, the Xpian god. But then, the Catholics reckon I've got a better chance of entering Heaven if I pray to god's mother, Mary, as she'll intercede on my behalf. I can't possibly pray to them all in one minute. (Besides, if Allah is the One True God and he only speaks Arabic, I'm screwed anyway...)
So, the answer is still no. With bells on. (Like the pixie.)

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why not repent to Him, what do you have to lose?
I might be addressing the wrong god, and be sent to Hell anyway. After all, if I pray to Allah or the Xpian god, and Yahweh is the one true god, I'm going to Hell. If I pray to Yahweh or Allah and the Xpain god is the one true god, I'm going to Hell. If I pray to the Xpian god or Yahweh and Allah is the one true god, I'm going to Hell. And even if I get the right god, what about all the different sects? Sunni, Shi'ite, Orthodox, Liberal, Protestant (Methodist, CofE, High Anglican, Wesleyan, Lutheran, Calvinists, Baptists, AnaBaptists...), Catholic... And these options are all merely Abrahamic. We still haven't touched Buddha, Shiva, Kali, Set, Bast, Osiris, Quezlcotl, Stovokor, or the one true religion: Liverpool Football Club.

Wudang
7th September 2004, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
I know what you mean and you are right of course but I think that we have to distinguish between the religious notion or feeling or phaenomenon and the churches/religious institutions. There is no way for the latter to agree on what you propose the same way that national parliaments of different countries( that have replaced the religious institutions in western democracies) will never agree to let aside their differences.

But to return to the religion and push the discussion a bit further I do not see why perceiving deity in a different way is a problem. You, Hans grew up by playing with the snow , I grew up in the desert, I see difficult for the two of us to have similar idea of what constitutes deity.

The opening post while was phrased in a silly manner posed a question. Is fear an enough reason for an atheist to resort to deity? I guess that only atheists who have faced danger and fear can give an accurate answer.

What has this got to do with Buddhism? Buddhism does not preach any form of deism unless heavily corrupted. It can be described as spiritual for certain values of "spiritual" but I think you misapprehend Buddhism.
The fearful situations I have been in seem to leave me rather cold and concentrated rather crying for daddy.

Darat
7th September 2004, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Let me rephrase this.............

If you had 1 minute left to live would you repent to the Lord just incase He is real and Hell does exist.

Why? The Christian God my family believes in is "all forgiving" and "all loving" and there is no way he'll condemn one of his children to eternity without him no matter what the chid has done.

Darat
7th September 2004, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
Probably you haven't heard much about the dialogue that is taking place among different religions lately.

Yet the current Pope has been quite clear that even other denominations of Christianity are "wrong". I somehow doubt that he's going to suddenly say "Hey the Protestants are wrong but I agree with the Hindus".

MRC_Hans
7th September 2004, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
*snip*
The opening post while was phrased in a silly manner posed a question. Is fear an enough reason for an atheist to resort to deity? I guess that only atheists who have faced danger and fear can give an accurate answer. Given sufficient fear, I suppose anybody would resort to practically anything. Which proves exactly nothing.

However, that was not the question I read in the initial post. First of all, it was presumably the Christian god that was in question (since the poster uses the handle 1inChrist). Secondly, it contained a clear refernce to ye olde Pascal's Wager: Would you deliberately choose to declare beleif just to be sure? (as if that could fool God :rolleyes:).

So my answer is very clear: While I do not know exactly how I would react in such a situation, I would certainly not try to cheat a hypothetical god by suddenly declaring myself a believer.

I think believers ask this kind of questions because they keep thinking that atheists are just believers trying to deny their belief.

Hans

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
It's amazing how much energy all of you spend in order to address trollish posts but I found this reply really interesting because it demonstrates that most of you when it comes to Religion you do not really know of what you are talking about.

Buddha, Christ, Jehova, Yahweh, Zeus are names people use to describe the same feeling or the same experience. The fact that there are as many words as the languages in order to describe love, joy, fear doesn't mean that those experiences do not exist.

So,this logic is totally fallacious and personally I cannot distinguish it from religious fundamentalism.
This is complete rubbish. For starters, Christ and Jehovah are mutually exclusive; either Christ was the messiah, or he wasn't.
Buddha was a man who taught enlightenment through the four noble truths; he explicitly demanded that his followers not deify him after his death, but some of them did so anyway, and became Southern schools of Zen. (Northern schools still cling to Buddhism as a moral philosophy, and nothing else.)
Zeus ate his father to remove the threat of deistic rivalry, so if Zeus were real, there would have been a titanic struggle (pun intended) between him and the other gods by now.
Feelings do not need to be anthropomorphised in order to be expressed or experienced.

wollery
7th September 2004, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
the one true religion: Liverpool Football Club. :clap: Come pray with me at the altar of the great prophet Shankly! :clap:



Seriously though, 1inChrist asked earlier;

Why not repent to Him, what do you have to lose?

Simple answer; my self respect.

LW
7th September 2004, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra

Buddha, Christ, Jehova, Yahweh, Zeus are names people use to describe the same feeling or the same experience. The fact that there are as many words as the languages in order to describe love, joy, fear doesn't mean that those experiences do not exist.

If you are saying that all religions are essentially equivalent, I agree with you. However, I probably place them into a different equivalence class than you do.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 06:02 AM
1inChrist,

How did you happen to find our discussions here at the JREF?

Are you truly a Christian, who wishes to share your heartfelt beliefs with a bunch of non-believers, or are you just the troll that our dear Cleopatra says you are?

I have to believe you are a troll, because I don't believe a true Christian would use a name like " 1inChrist ", just to stir up controversy among what they perceive to be just a bunch of Atheists.

Upchurch
7th September 2004, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by RabbiSatan
Which lord? God? G-D? Shiva? Jehova? Yahweh? Ed? I can't repent to something that I do not think has evidence to substantiate that it exists. Pardon me? We've got a forum full of evidence for the existance of Ed. And Yahweh, for that matter, although that may be a case of mistaken identity.

Let's get this over with.

Ed, Yahweh, I'm really, really sorry. Honest.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by Cleopatra
Hmmm wrong, unless you do not consider the Pope to be one of the major religionists.

Is the Pope going to give up his silly hat, or do you think he will demand that everyone else wear one?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
Is the Pope going to give up his silly hat, or do you think he will demand that everyone else wear one?
I think the Pope is a Catholic.
Oh, and that bears defecate in woods.

Tricky
7th September 2004, 06:33 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what a hardcore atheist is. Is it someone who has been an atheist all their life? Is it someone who has thought about religion deeply and decided on atheism? Is it someone who wouldn't believe in God if he came farting and tap-dancing into the room and proceeded to work miracles in front of him?

(Kudo's to any of you Vonnegut fans who get that reference.)

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by Tricky
(Kudo's to any of you Vonnegut fans who get that reference.)
Kudo's what to any of us who get the reference? And wouldn't Kudo like his whatever-it-is back?

Upchurch
7th September 2004, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
I have to believe you are a troll, because I don't believe a true Christian would use a name like " 1inChrist ", just to stir up controversy among what they perceive to be just a bunch of Atheists. Ya know, so what? When has it ever hurt anyone to have their ideas challenged by someone who thinks differently? I mean, granted, it was a really weak, logically lopsided, and easily deconstructed challenge, but what is hurt in the attempt?

If he had come in with "all atheists are pansies", then maybe I'd be with you on the troll thing.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch
Ya know, so what? When has it ever hurt anyone to have their ideas challenged by someone who thinks differently? I mean, granted, it was a really weak, logically lopsided, and easily deconstructed challenge, but what is hurt in the attempt?

If he had come in with "all atheists are pansies", then maybe I'd be with you on the troll thing.


Shhhhhhhh.. I'm trying to engage here.. ( Either encite the troll into freshening their bait, or bring the true believer into meaningfull dialogue ) ...

Upchurch
7th September 2004, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
Shhhhhhhh.. I'm trying to engage here.. ( Either encite the troll into freshening their bait, or bring the true believer into meaningfull dialogue ) ... Ah. Right, then. Away I go.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
Either encite (incite or entice?) the troll into freshening their bait, or bring the true believer into meaningfull (meaningful only has one "l") dialogue...
Yours in trolldom... ;) :p :D

Marquis de Carabas
7th September 2004, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Tricky
I'm still trying to figure out what a hardcore atheist is. Is it someone who has been an atheist all their life? Is it someone who has thought about religion deeply and decided on atheism? Is it someone who wouldn't believe in God if he came farting and tap-dancing into the room and proceeded to work miracles in front of him?
I've no idea what a hardcore atheist is. I've always thought of myself as a bit of a Red Shoe Diaries atheist.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
I've no idea what a hardcore atheist is. I've always thought of myself as a bit of a Red Shoe Diaries atheist.
Does that also imply the existence of Bridget Jones atheists? And will any epistemiological novel do? How about Dracula atheists? Carrie atheists? Or Edgar Allen Poe atheists? ;)

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 07:45 AM
Wow, I never dreamed I would get so many replies!

Let me find out where to begin..........

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Which lord? Shiva? Buddha? Allah? Yahweh? The pixie with tiny silver bells in his toecaps? Oh, yeah, and then there's wossisname, the Xpian god. But then, the Catholics reckon I've got a better chance of entering Heaven if I pray to god's mother, Mary, as she'll intercede on my behalf. I can't possibly pray to them all in one minute. (Besides, if Allah is the One True God and he only speaks Arabic, I'm screwed anyway...)
So, the answer is still no. With bells on. (Like the pixie.)

I'm talking about the God of the Holy Bible. I am not Catholic and I don't believe that anyone but Jesus Himself can save you from Hell. Not mary, not anyone.

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 07:50 AM
Wow, just let me say I was the hardest of the hardcore here. I was into it all. Anal atheism, bondage atheism, vampiric atheism, chiropractic atheism, foxhole atheism. Just so long as it was atheistic I was totally into it. Totally.

But your incisive opening post has changed my mind. Totally.

H'ethetheth
7th September 2004, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I'm talking about the God of the Holy Bible.

I think the next question will be: Why him, and not any of those mentioned, including the Pink Invisible Unicorn?
You know what? It is the next question. :D

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by Darat
Why? The Christian God my family believes in is "all forgiving" and "all loving" and there is no way he'll condemn one of his children to eternity without him no matter what the chid has done.

He does love everyone but can only save those who want to be saved. If you don't choose Him, you cannot enter Heaven. This doesn't mean he hates you or doesn't love you, just that YOU must make the choice.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I'm talking about the God of the Holy Bible. I am not Catholic and I don't believe that anyone but Jesus Himself can save you from Hell. Not mary, not anyone.
Why that particular god? Why not Shiva or Allah or the Invisible Pink Unicorn? What reason do you have for preferring an interpretation of the Biblical god over any other? And, why do you believe that Mary can't save me from Hell? Millions of Catholics do.

roger
7th September 2004, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I'm talking about the God of the Holy Bible. I am not Catholic and I don't believe that anyone but Jesus Himself can save you from Hell. Not mary, not anyone. But why wouldn't you pray to her anyway? You know, just to be safe. After all, you could be wrong about the Jesus thing. It may be Mary that is the savior.

Answer that, and you will know why we atheists aren't praying to a God we don't believe in.

Maledict
7th September 2004, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I'm talking about the God of the Holy Bible. I am not Catholic and I don't believe that anyone but Jesus Himself can save you from Hell. Not mary, not anyone.

But then the people holding the myriad of other beliefs and believe that only their methods are the "One-True-Method" to attaining salvation.

Classic Example:

Christianity: Believe in us, or go to hell.

Islam: Believe in us, infidel, or roast.

Religion of the invisible prancing pink unicorn: Believe in me, or I'll stomp you to death and send you to hell.

So who is correct then? They cannot all be correct. They are, and claim to be, mutually exclusive.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I'm talking about the God of the Holy Bible. I am not Catholic and I don't believe that anyone but Jesus Himself can save you from Hell. Not mary, not anyone.
How does Jesus save one from hell?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
He does love everyone but can only save those who want to be saved. If you don't choose Him, you cannot enter Heaven. This doesn't mean he hates you or doesn't love you, just that YOU must make the choice.
Where is your evidence for this bald assertion?
BTW, if your god is that anal retentive, I don't want to go to heaven. Hell, with Bertrand Russell, Douglas Adams, Einstein, amnd, when he gets there, Richard Dawkins, is going to be so much more fun and intellectually stimulating.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
1inChrist,

How did you happen to find our discussions here at the JREF?

I was exploring the Sylvia Browne/James Randi controversy and I saw there was a pretty active message board here and decided to stop by.

Are you truly a Christian, who wishes to share your heartfelt beliefs with a bunch of non-believers, or are you just the troll that our dear Cleopatra says you are?

I would call myself a Christian, yes. I live my life according to His word.

I have to believe you are a troll, because I don't believe a true Christian would use a name like " 1inChrist ", just to stir up controversy among what they perceive to be just a bunch of Atheists.

What's a troll? I got my name ''1inChrist'' because I feel that since I have been Saved, Jesus and I are one.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
He does love everyone but can only save those who want to be saved. If you don't choose Him, you cannot enter Heaven. This doesn't mean he hates you or doesn't love you, just that YOU must make the choice.

So, the only condition for getting into heaven is to choose god? It doesn't matter how you behave ?

Saying you love someone and at the same time saying you would send them to hell, sounds like a bit of a contradiction..

It surely doesn't fit any definition of love I have come to understand.. And I am a hardcore atheist..

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
So, the only condition for getting into heaven is to choose god? It doesn't matter how you behave ?

Yes, accepting Christ is your Get-out-of-Hell free card. Salvation by grace is really awesome in that aspect.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:03 AM
Yes, accepting Christ is your Get-out-of-Hell free card. Salvation by grace is really awesome in that aspect.

That's one way to look at it I suppose.

H'ethetheth
7th September 2004, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
That's one way to look at it I suppose.

It's settled then.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
So, the only condition for getting into heaven is to choose god? It doesn't matter how you behave ?

And live a life according to His Word.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
That's one way to look at it I suppose.

What would be another way?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I would call myself a Christian, yes. I live my life according to His word.
In other words, you sell your sister into slavery, murder those who disagree with you, and think that the world should have ended 2,000 years ago?
Originally posted by 1inChrist
What's a troll? I got my name ''1inChrist'' because I feel that since I have been Saved, Jesus and I are one.
That's called a bipolar disorder. I recommend you seek psychiatric treatment immediately.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
And live a life according to His Word.


How can you live life according to his word if you only have one minute left to live? Or, is just one minute ' according to his word ' all it takes ?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
And live a life according to His Word.
Which version? Catholic, Calvinist, Presbyterian, CofE, Anglican, Mormon...?

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
That's one way to look at it I suppose.

Okay, so here's your chance to do an empirical study of God's forgiveness through Christ. You can see just how much sin God will tolerate and still let you into heaven thanks to acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal savior. Right? You have faith, right? Maybe the true test of faith here by God is seeing just how much sin you are willing to perform in order to test the boundaries of God's infinite forgiveness.

Let us know how it goes.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I got my name ''1inChrist'' because I feel that since I have been Saved, Jesus and I are one.

One what?

And Mary can too save people from hell. She can intercede, because she was Immaculately Conceived, and Assumpted into Heaven while still alive. That makes her stronger than the Powerpuff Girls, and equal with Jesus. Which is why people built so many cathedrals and churches and statues in her honor. You summon her with the rosary, and plead with her to do your bidding and overrule her son's decisions.

Duh.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by RabbiSatan
But then the people holding the myriad of other beliefs and believe that only their methods are the "One-True-Method" to attaining salvation.

Classic Example:

Christianity: Believe in us, or go to hell.

Islam: Believe in us, infidel, or roast.

Religion of the invisible prancing pink unicorn: Believe in me, or I'll stomp you to death and send you to hell.

So who is correct then? They cannot all be correct. They are, and claim to be, mutually exclusive.

In my opinion Islam is just a cheap rip-off of Christianity.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
In my opinion Islam is just a cheap rip-off of Christianity.

Stick around.. You will be surprised at the documented evidence that shows where Christianity was ripped from..:wink:


Of course only your opinion matters.. Millions of other people must be wrong..

Marquis de Carabas
7th September 2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
In my opinion Islam is just a cheap rip-off of Christianity.
In my opinion, Jesus is just a cheap rip-off of Mithras.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Where is your evidence for this bald assertion?
BTW, if your god is that anal retentive, I don't want to go to heaven. Hell, with Bertrand Russell, Douglas Adams, Einstein, amnd, when he gets there, Richard Dawkins, is going to be so much more fun and intellectually stimulating.

Hell is not fun. According to the Word, Hell is a place of great pain and torture. This is why Jesus warned of the horrors of Hell and why He died so we could escape.

What would you consider evidence? There's many things:

Bible Code
Biblical Prophecy
Near Death Experiences

There is a great ammount of evidence for the Truth of the Gospels.

H'ethetheth
7th September 2004, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
In my opinion Islam is just a cheap rip-off of Christianity.

In my opinion, christianity is just a crazy sect of jewish religion. What is your point? Why is the christian god the only true god?

MLynn
7th September 2004, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Donks
Conversion through fear...
Would you believe in God if there was no penatly for not doing so? In other words, would you believe in God if you ended up in heaven depending on how you lived your life and not if you "repented"?
Not all Xians came to Christianity thru fear - I did not become a Xian because of penalty. And, I don't make excuses for my screwups. I take responsiblity for my actions and how I treat people - every day. It's why I'm a misfit and don't seem to belong anywhere...:)

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
In my opinion Islam is just a cheap rip-off of Christianity.
Which makes Xpianity a cheap rip-off of Judaism.
Which, in turn, is a cheap rip-off of Yahvism.
Which is a cheap rip-off of Henotheism.
Which is a cheap rip-off of the Egyptian pantheon.
Which is a cheap rip-off of Zoroastrianism.
Which is a cheap rip-off of Mithraism...

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by TragicMonkey
One what?

And Mary can too save people from hell. She can intercede, because she was Immaculately Conceived, and Assumpted into Heaven while still alive. That makes her stronger than the Powerpuff Girls, and equal with Jesus. Which is why people built so many cathedrals and churches and statues in her honor. You summon her with the rosary, and plead with her to do your bidding and overrule her son's decisions.

Duh.

Is there any Scripture that supports the claim that Mary can cleanse sins?

Ipecac
7th September 2004, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
And live a life according to His Word.

Wait just a minute! You said that all I have to do is believe. The Bible says that as well.

So where does living a life according to his word come in? That's a SECOND condition.

So which is it?

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Which makes Xpianity a cheap rip-off of Judaism.
Which, in turn, is a cheap rip-off of Yahvism.
Which is a cheap rip-off of Henotheism.
Which is a cheap rip-off of the Egyptian pantheon.
Which is a cheap rip-off of Zoroastrianism.
Which is a cheap rip-off of Mithraism...

The Egyptian gods got their start long before Mithras showed up. Some of them go all the way back to the Neolithic. Which means...they win!

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Which version? Catholic, Calvinist, Presbyterian, CofE, Anglican, Mormon...?

It's up for every person to read exactly what Jesus said and form their own opinions.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Hell is not fun. According to the Word, Hell is a place of great pain and torture. This is why Jesus warned of the horrors of Hell and why He died so we could escape.
Hell has only been "not fun" since Yahvism incorporated Mithraic dualism, which insists upon requitement of sins in the next life. Prior to that, the proto-Xpian view of the afterlife ("Sheol") was much like the Greco-Roman version: just a hole in the ground.
Originally posted by 1inChrist
What would you consider evidence? There's many things:

Bible Code
Biblical Prophecy
Near Death Experiences

There is a great ammount of evidence for the Truth of the Gospels.
If you consider that evidence, you're deluded. The Bible Code is nonsense, no biblical prophesy has ever come to pass, and near-death experiences (note the hyphen!) are merely descriptions of hypoxia.
In other words, your "evidence" is zilch.

Ipecac
7th September 2004, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
In my opinion Islam is just a cheap rip-off of Christianity.

Learn some history. Most christians have a very poor understanding and knowledge of history, including that of their own religion.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Is there any Scripture that supports the claim that Mary can cleanse sins?

Who says "the Scripture" is the sole source of determining Christian doctrine? That's why we have an infallible Pope.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by Ipecac
Wait just a minute! You said that all I have to do is believe. The Bible says that as well.

So where does living a life according to his word come in? That's a SECOND condition.

So which is it?

You can't just go out and sin in the day and come home and repent at night. You must repent and from that day on live a life according to His Word.

Lisa Simpson
7th September 2004, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Is there any Scripture that supports the claim that Mary can cleanse sins?

Don't know. But there is Biblical scripture that says one should stone disobedient children. My two sons have been squabbling all morning long. Despite the fact that I have told them to stop over and over and over again. Should I stone them?

Ipecac
7th September 2004, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
What would you consider evidence? There's many things:

Bible Code
Biblical Prophecy
Near Death Experiences

There is a great ammount of evidence for the Truth of the Gospels.

What Kimpatsu said. This is not evidence, it's nonsense.

Open your mind, look at these things with a little critical thought. You might challenge your world view, but the reward is enlightenment.

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Hell is not fun. According to the Word, Hell is a place of great pain and torture. This is why Jesus warned of the horrors of Hell and why He died so we could escape.

What would you consider evidence? There's many things:

Bible Code
Biblical Prophecy
Near Death Experiences

There is a great ammount of evidence for the Truth of the Gospels.

You know what's going to be the best part up in Heaven with the golden streets and warm glow emanating from God? It's going to be the laugh at the atheists and infidel parties with free drinks. God will wipe away the sorrows so you can even laugh at family members who weren't saved by Christ. It's going to be one awesome party.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
It's up for every person to read exactly what Jesus said and form their own opinions.
The trouble is, we can't do that. Unlike Shakespeare, or Ben Johsnon, or John Hancock, we have absolutely nothing written by Jesus. We don't even have any contemporary accounts of him! To be accurate, your statement should read, "It's up to every person to read what various English translations of unsubstantiated Maccabean and, later, non-Judean propaganda would have us believe was said by a man for whom there is absolutely no proof of his existence".

Marquis de Carabas
7th September 2004, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
It's up for every person to read exactly what Jesus said and form their own opinions.
Since many, if not all, of the posters to this thread have done just this, why should anyone recant that decision on their deathbed?

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
You can't just go out and sin in the day and come home and repent at night. You must repent and from that day on live a life according to His Word.


So how do we become saved in the last minute of our life, as you suggested in your original post?

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
Don't know. But there is Biblical scripture that says one should stone disobedient children. My two sons have been squabbling all morning long. Despite the fact that I have told them to stop over and over and over again. Should I stone them?

Definitely.

Ipecac
7th September 2004, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
You can't just go out and sin in the day and come home and repent at night. You must repent and from that day on live a life according to His Word.

But that's not what you said. You said I just have to believe in him. Isn't that the sole way to heaven?

You are being inconsistent (as are most christians who discuss this topic).

Do I have only to believe? Or do I have to believe AND act?

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Hell has only been "not fun" since Yahvism incorporated Mithraic dualism, which insists upon requitement of sins in the next life. Prior to that, the proto-Xpian view of the afterlife ("Sheol") was much like the Greco-Roman version: just a hole in the ground.

What are you talking about!?

If you consider that evidence, you're deluded. The Bible Code is nonsense, no biblical prophesy has ever come to pass, and near-death experiences (note the hyphen!) are merely edscriptions of hypoxia.

What about the findings of Creation scientists?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
You can't just go out and sin in the day and come home and repent at night. You must repent and from that day on live a life according to His Word.
This from a man who kills innocent children because they're born Egyptian? :rolleyes:

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
What about the findings of Creation scientists?

There are so many things wrong with that, I cannot even begin.

Maledict
7th September 2004, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Hell is not fun. According to the Word, Hell is a place of great pain and torture. This is why Jesus warned of the horrors of Hell and why He died so we could escape.
Circular Logic (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#circulus)

What would you consider evidence? There's many things:
God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent, Omnimax, by that definition, the proof would be self ubiquitous. It isn't

Bible Code
Nope (http://www.skepdic.com/numology.html)

Biblical Prophecy
Such as....?

Near Death Experiences
What about them? Funny how people in different cultures swore that they were going to join their particular dieties when they are going to die.

If there is a "One True Gpd(Tm)" - Why do people not have the same NDE experiences of the same God?

There is a great ammount of evidence for the Truth of the Gospels.

Which, unfortunately, don't stand up to scrutiny.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Ipecac
Learn some history. Most christians have a very poor understanding and knowledge of history, including that of their own religion.

I know enough history to know Islam came after Christianity.

Marquis de Carabas
7th September 2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist

What about the findings of Creation scientists?
You mean when they discovered that if you whine long enough and loud enough, you can delude millions of people accross the nation? Thanks, but we already knew that.

Maledict
7th September 2004, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I know enough history to know Islam came after Christianity.

If you're arguing from the age of the religions as proof of their validity - Hinduism wins. All hail Shiva!

Ipecac
7th September 2004, 08:23 AM
The whole "I'm saved and you're not" aspect of christianity is deeply disturbing.

1inChrist, do you love your family? What would you do if you found yourself in heaven and someone you love and care deeply about didn't make it into heaven? Could you be happy knowing your spouse/children/parents/friends were being tortured for eternity? I presume that if terrorists captured your family here on earth you'd be pretty broken up at what they might be going through. Do you really think that you could be happy knowing that your family was suffering for all eternity? Or do you believe that somehow you won't care?

Why would you worship a being who would put you and your loved ones in such a situation?

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
What are you talking about!?



What about the findings of Creation scientists?

Findings?

That pi = 3?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
Don't know. But there is Biblical scripture that says one should stone disobedient children. My two sons have been squabbling all morning long. Despite the fact that I have told them to stop over and over and over again. Should I stone them?
Wait till they're teenagers, Lisa; they'll get stoned by themselves, without any prompting. :D

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:23 AM
Sorry; duplicate post; my PC threw a wobbly.
God must have cursed it... :D

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
Don't know. But there is Biblical scripture that says one should stone disobedient children. My two sons have been squabbling all morning long. Despite the fact that I have told them to stop over and over and over again. Should I stone them?
Wait till they're teenagers, Lisa; they'll get stoned by themselves, without any prompting. :D

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
What are you talking about!?



What about the findings of Creation scientists?

Is this Candid Camera ?:eek:

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
This from a man who kills innocent children because they're born Egyptian? :rolleyes:

Jesus killed egyptian children? Where in the Bible does it say that?

Do you really live in Japan?

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:26 AM
1inChrist, do you love your family? What would you do if you found yourself in heaven and someone you love and care deeply about didn't make it into heaven? Could you be happy knowing your spouse/children/parents/friends were being tortured for eternity? I presume that if terrorists captured your family here on earth you'd be pretty broken up at what they might be going through. Do you really think that you could be happy knowing that your family was suffering for all eternity? Or do you believe that somehow you won't care?

I would be saddened but it was their choice to reject the Lord.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Jesus killed egyptian children? Where in the Bible does it say that?

The Tenth Plague.

Of course, Mary could have saved them, had they asked.

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by Ipecac
The whole "I'm saved and you're not" aspect of christianity is deeply disturbing.

1inChrist, do you love your family? What would you do if you found yourself in heaven and someone you love and care deeply about didn't make it into heaven? Could you be happy knowing your spouse/children/parents/friends were being tortured for eternity? I presume that if terrorists captured your family here on earth you'd be pretty broken up at what they might be going through. Do you really think that you could be happy knowing that your family was suffering for all eternity? Or do you believe that somehow you won't care?

Why would you worship a being who would put you and your loved ones in such a situation?

God's got that taken care of! (http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq384.html)

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
So how do we become saved in the last minute of our life, as you suggested in your original post?

If you choose to come to Him, even in the last minute of your life, he would accept your apologies for your sins and let you in Heaven. Afterall, that's what our Lord suffered and died for. Have you seen Mel Gibson's, ''The Passion of the Christ''?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:28 AM
Sorry; triplicate post.
This is my equivalent of the holy trinity... :p

Lisa Simpson
7th September 2004, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Sorry; triplicate post.
This is my equivalent of the holy trinity... :p

I just figured you were speaking about "stoning" from experience. :D

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Have you seen Mel Gibson's, ''The Passion of the Christ''?

Yes. It seemed to me an excellent argument against believing in religions, mixing religions with politics, and made me angry that anyone would deliberately choose a course designed to make his mother upset.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by RabbiSatan
If you're arguing from the age of the religions as proof of their validity - Hinduism wins. All hail Shiva!

What proof is there that Hinduism is true?

Ipecac
7th September 2004, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I know enough history to know Islam came after Christianity.

Which isn't the point.

Check out Mithraism. Check out paganism. Both of these predate Christianity.

1inChrist, this thread is moving very quickly. There are some previous posts that you may be missing because the pages are updating so rapidly. Please go back and respond to some of the questions being asked.

Here's another. Do you believe in questioning your beliefs and taking an honest look at the answers? Or do you believe that Satan provides all contradictory information and that anything that might lead you to question your faith is satan-inspired and thus not worth heeding? I hope it's the former. If the latter, then you probably should just quit right now because you're wasting everyone's time.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
What proof is there that Hinduism is true?

Same as the proof that Christianity is true, plus a few thousand years more history.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I know enough history to know Islam came after Christianity.
...Which came after Judaism.
You should become a pagan.

Lisa Simpson
7th September 2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
What proof is there that Hinduism is true?

What proof is there that Christianity is true?

Maledict
7th September 2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
What proof is there that Hinduism is true?

I can ask the same question of Christianity - and all religions in general. Simply put, as I stated in my first post in this thread back on the first page, that there isn't any evidence at all that any of the world's religions are true.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
I just figured you were speaking about "stoning" from experience. :D
Hey, I went to college. ;) :p :D

Ipecac
7th September 2004, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I would be saddened but it was their choice to reject the Lord.

Wow. I find that sad and cold. I would never, NEVER, accept my family, especially my children, being tortured. I would never worship a being who would threaten to torture my family.

You can say it's the non-believers fault, but if you're right then god set up the system. He gets the blame. The non-believers are the victims.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Have you seen Mel Gibson's, ''The Passion of the Christ''?


No, I haven't bothered to see that snuff film..

I really don't understand the entertaiment value of watching someone being beaten to a bloody pulp and then nailed to a cross.

Doesn't seem to be a good way to spend my money..


Why do you think a message from Mel Gibson would be valid, when he believes all the ' Mary ' stuff; which you say is not true?

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
How can you live life according to his word if you only have one minute left to live? Or, is just one minute ' according to his word ' all it takes ?

Well you wouldn't have time but the Lord would still save your soul if you repent and are truley sorry.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Ipecac
Which isn't the point.

Check out Mithraism. Check out paganism. Both of these predate Christianity.

1inChrist, this thread is moving very quickly. There are some previous posts that you may be missing because the pages are updating so rapidly. Please go back and respond to some of the questions being asked.

Here's another. Do you believe in questioning your beliefs and taking an honest look at the answers? Or do you believe that Satan provides all contradictory information and that anything that might lead you to question your faith is satan-inspired and thus not worth heeding? I hope it's the former. If the latter, then you probably should just quit right now because you're wasting everyone's time.

A little of both. I am always cautious of Satan's tricks but still like to keep an open mind.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Well you wouldn't have time but the Lord would still save your soul if you repent and are truley sorry.
What is a soul? The thing on the bottom of my shoe? Or is it that of which only the likes of James Brown is possessed?

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
Why do you think a message from Mel Gibson would be valid, when he believes all the ' Mary ' stuff; which you say is not true?

Gibson's Marianism will be more obvious in the sequel, "Passion II: Mary's Revenge". They're doing the fight scenes just like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
What proof is there that Christianity is true?

Well how about the fact that many people converted to Christianity on the set of The Passion? Some of them were Muslims! It may not be ''proof'' but I would toss it in the evidence bin.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
No, I haven't bothered to see that snuff film..

I really don't understand the entertaiment value of watching someone being beaten to a bloody pulp and then nailed to a cross.

Doesn't seem to be a good way to spend my money..


Why do you think a message from Mel Gibson would be valid, when he believes all the ' Mary ' stuff; which you say is not true?

Well we may believe different things but Mel and I are both Men of the Lord.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Well you wouldn't have time but the Lord would still save your soul if you repent and are truley sorry.


So, it is not really about living a good life, it is just about being sorry afterwards..

Do you have any children? Do you teach them they can behave any way they want, just as long as they repent at the end?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Jesus killed egyptian children? Where in the Bible does it say that?
Exodus 13:15 (King James Version) : "And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt..."
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Do you really live in Japan?
Yes.

Marquis de Carabas
7th September 2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Well how about the fact that many people converted to Christianity on the set of The Passion? Some of them were Muslims! It may not be ''proof'' but I would toss it in the evidence bin.
Hmmm. People as mindless sheep. I'm afraid that really does constitute evidence for Christianity.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Ipecac
Wow. I find that sad and cold. I would never, NEVER, accept my family, especially my children, being tortured. I would never worship a being who would threaten to torture my family.

You can say it's the non-believers fault, but if you're right then god set up the system. He gets the blame. The non-believers are the victims.

God gives us two choices - Heaven and Hell. Which do you want?

He forces no one to choice Hell and He forces no one to choose Heaven. Pretty fair in my opinion.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Well we may believe different things but Mel and I are both Men of the Lord.

You are contradicting some of your earlier statements..

Maledict
7th September 2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Well how about the fact that many people converted to Christianity on the set of The Passion? Some of them were Muslims! It may not be ''proof'' but I would toss it in the evidence bin.

I know that people definitely converted to Hinduism after the mass hysteria of the Ganesh Milk "miracle" event a while back. I'm sure that counts as evidence that Hinduism is true, using your logic.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Well how about the fact that many people converted to Christianity on the set of The Passion? Some of them were Muslims! It may not be ''proof'' but I would toss it in the evidence bin.
That's evidence of hysteria and peer pressure, not for the existence of any deity.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God gives us two choices - Heaven and Hell. Which do you want?

He forces no one to choice Hell and He forces no one to choose Heaven. Pretty fair in my opinion.

Why not let everyone into Heaven, then? Petty spite because people didn't worship him? That's some ineffable ego, there.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
So, it is not really about living a good life, it is just about being sorry afterwards..

Do you have any children? Do you teach them they can behave any way they want, just as long as they repent at the end?

I have two daughters who are in college. I raised them to know the Lord but they have lost their Faith in these last few years.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Well we may believe different things but Mel and I are both Men of the Lord.
And here at the JREF, we are men and women of reason.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Exodus 13:15 (King James Version) : "And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt...

I think in cases of the Old Testament that what many people believed to be God was just nature. People used to believe illness was an act of God but we know now that it has natural explainations.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I have two daughters who are in college. I raised them to know the Lord but they have lost their Faith in these last few years.

Shows you the danger of education, there. People might learn!

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I have two daughters who are in college. I raised them to know the Lord but they have lost their Faith in these last few years.

Remember, God will wipe away those tears and you'll get to laugh at them up in Heaven at the party!

Amen!

Ipecac
7th September 2004, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Well how about the fact that many people converted to Christianity on the set of The Passion? Some of them were Muslims! It may not be ''proof'' but I would toss it in the evidence bin.

Toss it in the garbage bin. It's not evidence.

If people on the set of Ghandi converted to Hinduism, would that be considered by you to be proof of Hinduism?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God gives us two choices - Heaven and Hell. Which do you want?

He forces no one to choice Hell and He forces no one to choose Heaven. Pretty fair in my opinion.
You really should preface this bifurcation with the caveat that, "If the Xpian god exists..."
Anyway, as I said, I'll take Hell. It'll be more fun, and the company will be better.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I think in cases of the Old Testament that what many people believed to be God was just nature. People used to believe illness was an act of God but we know now that it has natural explainations.

So, we can discard the Old Testament? What about the Bible being the Word of God? Is it just the bits you like, then, that are the Word of God?

H'ethetheth
7th September 2004, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I have two daughters who are in college. I raised them to know the Lord but they have lost their Faith in these last few years.

Did you ask them why, or did you tell them they would go to hell?

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Hmmm. People as mindless sheep. I'm afraid that really does constitute evidence for Christianity.

How do you know they are mindless? How do you know they didn't feel the Lord?

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I have two daughters who are in college. I raised them to know the Lord but they have lost their Faith in these last few years.

You ignored my question. Surely your god has given you wisdom to answer the questions of non believers..

Do you know what ' circular logic ' is ?

Marquis de Carabas
7th September 2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I have two daughters who are in college. I raised them to know the Lord but they have lost their Faith in these last few years.
Give me their numbers. I'd be happy to help them look for it. :D

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Why not let everyone into Heaven, then? Petty spite because people didn't worship him? That's some ineffable ego, there.

That would interfer with people's free will.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
Remember, God will wipe away those tears and you'll get to laugh at them up in Heaven at the party!

Amen!

I hope they come back to Him. I worry because I get the feeling their teachers are liberals.

Ipecac
7th September 2004, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God gives us two choices - Heaven and Hell. Which do you want?

He forces no one to choice Hell and He forces no one to choose Heaven. Pretty fair in my opinion.

Evidence of the existence of a soul. Evidence of the existence of god, heaven and hell.

Not remotely fair. Most of the population of earth, going back through history, were not born christians. They were born of other faiths. How fair is it to ask them to reject everything they were ever taught while people born into christianity get a free pass?

Christianity posits perhaps the most UNFAIR determination of the afterlife conceivable.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I have two daughters who are in college. I raised them to know the Lord but they have lost their Faith in these last few years.
In other words, they've learned to think, rather than emote.
Good for them.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
That would interfer with people's free will.

So would removing the bottle of drain cleaner that baby is drinking. God follows the Prime Directive?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I think in cases of the Old Testament that what many people believed to be God was just nature. People used to believe illness was an act of God but we know now that it has natural explainations.
As do all the claims of the New Testament. So, we can now toss the whole Bible in the bin (where it belongs).

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I hope they come back to Him. I worry because I get the feeling their teachers are liberals.

So God's a Republican? I guess that makes sense since He chose Bush to be prez of the USA.

1inChrist
7th September 2004, 08:48 AM
You all have great questions about the Bible and Jesus and I would like to answer all of them but they are coming pretty fast and my head is spinning and hurting right now.

I'll come back later to answer some more.

Since you all have many questions for the Lord, you should ask Him. You would be amazed that if you just asked Him to show you the way, He will.

Ipecac
7th September 2004, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
That would interfer with people's free will.

Isn't god omniscient? Didn't god determine each persons physical, mental and spiritual makeup while creating them? Doesn't god know, before he even creates us, whether or not we'll go to heaven or hell?

If he knew I would go to hell when he created me, then he's responsible for me going to hell. After all, he could have created me differently, couldn't he?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
You all have great questions about the Bible and Jesus and I would like to answer all of them but they are coming pretty fast and my head is spinning and hurting right now.

I'll come back later to answer some more.

Since you all have many questions for the Lord, you should ask Him. You would be amazed that if you just asked Him to show you the way, He will.
Great! Just give me his phone number and I'll ask him right now!
Hello...? Hello...? Operator...?

Lisa Simpson
7th September 2004, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by TragicMonkey
So, we can discard the Old Testament? What about the Bible being the Word of God? Is it just the bits you like, then, that are the Word of God?

That would mean we could throw out the 10 Commandments, right? No more worries about stealing, killing, coveting thy neighbor's wife, etc.

Ipecac
7th September 2004, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Since you all have many questions for the Lord, you should ask Him. You would be amazed that if you just asked Him to show you the way, He will.

To God:

Do you exist?


::crickets::

Nope. Didn't think so.

Darat
7th September 2004, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
He does love everyone but can only save those who want to be saved. If you don't choose Him, you cannot enter Heaven. This doesn't mean he hates you or doesn't love you, just that YOU must make the choice.

Nope sorry my family would strongly disagree with you they would say we are all his creations since he is our father and like all good parents he will forgive all our sins.

You seem to think God is not perfect and could have created a person that he cannot redeem - strange belief. I'll stick with the all loving, all compassionate, all forgiving description I was brought up with if I have to pick one.

You can keep your imperfect, capricious curmudgeon.

Marquis de Carabas
7th September 2004, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
How do you know they are mindless? How do you know they didn't feel the Lord?
Oh, I'm sure they felt it. I'm just not so sure they gave much thought to the source of their feelings. They jumped on the Jesus bandwagon because it was the closest one around. It's OK, really. I worship Gretzky for similar reasons.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
That would mean we could throw out the 10 Commandments, right? No more worries about stealing, killing, coveting thy neighbor's wife, etc.

I covet your avatar. "I'm dancing like a monkey!"

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
That would mean we could throw out the 10 Commandments, right? No more worries about stealing, killing, coveting thy neighbor's wife, etc.
Hey, Lisa, I'll fornicate with you if you'll fornicate with me.
That'll definitely piss off god, right?

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Ipecac
Isn't god omniscient? Didn't god determine each persons physical, mental and spiritual makeup while creating them? Doesn't god know, before he even creates us, whether or not we'll go to heaven or hell?

If he knew I would go to hell when he created me, then he's responsible for me going to hell. After all, he could have created me differently, couldn't he?

d00d, that's why He gave you free will, so He could feel okay about sentencing you to eternal torment.

Darat
7th September 2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Hell is not fun. According to the Word, Hell is a place of great pain and torture.

...snip...

Any links or quotes to this hell, from the bible?

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Darat
Any links or quotes to this hell, from the bible?

No....but it may have been in Mel Gibson's movie. That counts as evidence, right?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 08:55 AM
The riddle of Epicurus:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Darat
7th September 2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you choose to come to Him, even in the last minute of your life, he would accept your apologies for your sins and let you in Heaven. Afterall, that's what our Lord suffered and died for. Have you seen Mel Gibson's, ''The Passion of the Christ''?

And you doubt intercession as a doctrine and want biblical support for it?

You do know that Mel's film was made up? At best only some of the dialogue could be said to be “biblically” accurate. Everything else was made up.

H'ethetheth
7th September 2004, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Darat
Any links or quotes to this hell, from the bible?

it's called center parcs (http://www.centerparcs.com)

I can't remember reading anything about it in the bible, but then I havent read all of it yet.

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
The riddle of Epicurus:

Well the way of solving the whole omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresent problem is to make God wholly amoral and evil. Christians can't seem to figure that out, and insist on insisting that their omniscient omnipotent God is wonderfully good when in fact he would have to be an completely evil deceiver.

Darat
7th September 2004, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God gives us two choices - Heaven and Hell. Which do you want?

He forces no one to choice Hell and He forces no one to choose Heaven. Pretty fair in my opinion.

Biblical references?

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
Well the way of solving the whole omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresent problem is to make God wholly amoral and evil. Christians can't seem to figure that out, and insist on insisting that their omniscient omnipotent God is wonderfully good when in fact he would have to be an completely evil deceiver.
If I had known about 9/11 in advance, I would have stopped it. That makes me more moral than god.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
Well the way of solving the whole omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresent problem is to make God wholly amoral and evil. Christians can't seem to figure that out, and insist on insisting that their omniscient omnipotent God is wonderfully good when in fact he would have to be an completely evil deceiver.

Or make him insane. In that case, his actions don't have to mesh with his inclinations.

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Or make him insane. In that case, his actions don't have to mesh with his inclinations.

So maybe he just needs some Prozac? Or would he need anti-psychotic medications?

H'ethetheth
7th September 2004, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
Well the way of solving the whole omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresent problem is to make God wholly amoral and evil. Christians can't seem to figure that out, and insist on insisting that their omniscient omnipotent God is wonderfully good when in fact he would have to be an completely evil deceiver.

Exactly! God would never dislike satan, because satan does god's bidding in hell. They might be one and the same.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by H'ethetheth
Exactly! God would never dislike satan, because satan does god's bidding in hell. They might be one and the same.
According to Mithraic dualism, upon which the whole heaven/hell and god/satan myths are based, they are one and the same.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
So maybe he just needs some Prozac? Or would he need anti-psychotic medications?

I don't think medication is enough. The guy has serious Freudian issues--impregnating a virgin with his own split personality to be raised as a human? And all that business with Eve and a big snake? I think God's got serious hangups with women as a result of his unresolved Freudian conflicts. Possible latent homosexuality? If there are any therapists willing to take on the job, they're going to need eternal life to work out all of God's issues.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
According to Mithraic dualism, upon which the whole heaven/hell and god/satan myths are based, they are one and the same.

No, just "good friends". See my speculation on God's possible latent homosexuality...

dmarker
7th September 2004, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?

No, because your god may be stupid enough to con; but a real deity wouldn't be.

H'ethetheth
7th September 2004, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
According to Mithraic dualism, upon which the whole heaven/hell and god/satan myths are based, they are one and the same.

Strange thing then that christianity forgot about this wisdom. Then again, they also forgot that the world is round, and other such trinkets.

dmarker
7th September 2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why not repent to Him, what do you have to lose?

Just because your deity may not be the right deity. What if I repent to yours then die only to discover that I've angered the real one? My best defense (hey, I didn't worship those other guys either) is gone.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by dmarker
Just because your deity may not be the right deity. What if I repent to yours then die only to discover that I've angered the real one? My best defense (hey, I didn't worship those other guys either) is gone.

And what if you choose the right one, but he gets mad because you only picked him because you happened to be born into a culture that specifically worships him, and not because you chose him from a wide selection? If I were God, and you picked me from a limited ballot, I'd be pissed off that you didn't make the effort to really study the issues and weigh me against those false gods to my advantage. Really, you're taking me for granted!

Good thing I'm not God, eh? I'd only send my own worshippers to Hell. Serve 'em right, really, for worshipping such a nasty god.

BillHoyt
7th September 2004, 09:20 AM
Did anybody see the warning posted by the admins about a xian trollbot virus? They said that it jumps onto boards, starts up a thread from the git-go and then ignores any responses to its lame Repent! preaching program. It Tell Him you're sorry... oh....

Read the word of Gawd!oops...

...oh, my...


anybody have trollbot anti-virus software?

Ossai
7th September 2004, 09:36 AM
1inChrist
Hell is not fun. According to the Word, Hell is a place of great pain and torture. This is why Jesus warned of the horrors of Hell and why He died so we could escape.

What would you consider evidence? There's many things:
Let’s take them one at a time.

Bible Code What code? The popularized one which is basically a letter search until they get it to say what they want?
The Bible (or Torah) Code (http://www.skepdic.com/bibcode.html)

Biblical ProphecyWhat prophecies? The multitude of ones that didn’t come about, or the forced ones that have nothing to do with what is being predicted?

Near Death Experiences Then why do Muslims, Buddhist, Mormons, Christians, Hindi, etc have NDEs that match their beliefs.

There is a great ammount of evidence for the Truth of the Gospels. I suppose that depends on how you define ‘evidence’.

What about the findings of Creation scientists? Are you sure you want to open that can of worms? Creation scientists are neither scientists nor honest. Search a few past threads.

Ossai

Upchurch
7th September 2004, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by dmarker
Just because your deity may not be the right deity. What if I repent to yours then die only to discover that I've angered the real one? My best defense (hey, I didn't worship those other guys either) is gone. Or, alternatively, what if the goal of this life is to shed ourselves of superstition and live our lives by reason and logic rather than blindly adhering to +/- 2000 year old documents written piecemeal and tacked together by Charlemagne(sp?) who picked and chose which books best fit his needs at the time? That last minute "repentance" could end up ruining an entire lifetime of work towards rationality.

1inChrist, were you aware that Charlemagne wasn't Christian until the very end of his life and that his "death-bed conversion" was most likely made up by his successors to add legitimacy to his Bible? If you know anything about Biblical history (that is, the history of the Bible itself, not the history depicted within the Bible), you'd know it's mostly been a tool of politics.

Heck, Jesus wasn't even considered divine by most Christians until the Council of Nicia (again sp?). There was a big contingent of Christians that considered Jesus just a really important prophet, like Islam considers Mohammad.

Having faith in scripture is kind of like have unprotected sex, you are having faith in every single person who has ever manipulated the scripture.

Scot C. Trypal
7th September 2004, 09:39 AM
God gives us two choices - Heaven and Hell. Which do you want?

He forces no one to choice Hell and He forces no one to choose Heaven. Pretty fair in my opinion.

So… some people just want to burn in Hell forever. They hate the Christian God sooo much that eternal torment seems like a better choice than an eternity in His loving company.

Why? Because of something called free will (it’s that special something that makes human actions not determined by our past, but not random either, and it just so happens to make this theology more palatable).

If God makes two spirits, and one goes to Hell and the other does not, they do it by free will? God doesn’t program each with unique desires, and decision-making processes that cause their choices, religious or otherwise; their upbringing doesn’t affect their free will either... In each of my children I see a preprogrammed personality that affect every choice they make. Am I wrong?

Why then worry about liberal teachers altering what is supposed to be free will, and, if these teachers could in fact do that and were the factor that switched the Saved switch from on to off in your daughters, how could God fault your children?

Eh, I’m just glad to see another poster who still capitalizes pronouns when they refer to God. Thought I was the only one still doing that.

Lisa Simpson
7th September 2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch

Having faith in scripture is kind of like have unprotected sex, you are having faith in every single person who has ever manipulated the scripture.

That is the funniest Bible-related analogy I have ever read.



BTW, it's Nicea.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch
Having faith in scripture is kind of like have unprotected sex, you are having faith in every single person who has ever manipulated the scripture.

Eww. Now I don't even want to touch that book, thinking of all those priestly manipulators before the era of latex....

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
7th September 2004, 09:46 AM
1inChrist said:
Let me rephrase this.............

If you had 1 minute left to live would you repent to the Lord just incase He is real and Hell does exist.
Surely the Lord can see through such a ridiculous scam, no?

~~ Paul

T'ai Chi
7th September 2004, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?

How would I know I had exactly one minute to live?? To know that I'd have to be a god.

Anyway, you are making a gamble of your own by thinking that your Christian mythology is correct over all the other hundreds of thousands of mythologies all over the world, past and present.


Why not repent to Him, what do you have to lose?


Sanity? Money? Time? Opportunity cost?


Hell is not fun. According to the Word,


Referring to bad fiction is not proof.

Besides the utter lack of evidence, I don't believe in a god because I am not a violent person. Just look at the mess in the middle east; truly sad.

Upchurch
7th September 2004, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
That is the funniest Bible-related analogy I have ever read.Thanks. It's funny 'cause it's true.
BTW, it's Nicea. Thanks. It's funny 'cause I can't spell.

Chanileslie
7th September 2004, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?

Nope.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Surely the Lord can see through such a ridiculous scam, no?


Of course, just like he sees through those people who lived their whole lives being good and doing holy works for the wrong god. The Lord sees right through their scam and sends them to Hell for trying to pull the wool over his eyes. "I was born Hindu a thousand years before Christ"? Yeah, he's heard that excuse before and didn't buy it. Scam artists! Sheesh.

Chanileslie
7th September 2004, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Let me rephrase this.............

If you had 1 minute left to live would you repent to the Lord just incase He is real and Hell does exist.

The answer is still no. If I had one minute left to live, I would like to spend that time on something useful such as telling my husband and children how important and special they are and how much I love them, not wasting my time on fantasies.

Chanileslie
7th September 2004, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why not repent to Him, what do you have to lose?

Precious time doing things much more conducive to my and my families happiness. That is what stands to be lost.

sackett
7th September 2004, 09:55 AM
Someplace in this jackrabbit of a thread, Cleopatra declared, "Buddha, Christ, Jehova, Yahweh, Zeus are names people use to describe the same feeling or the same experience." (Funny thing, my girl friend remarked just last night, "Religious feeling came before there was anything religious to associate with it." My GF doesn't know about Cleopatra, so I must ask all of you to keep this quiet. Thanks.)

So I'm ready to sum it up this way: Religion is a feeling. Feelings take place in your head, and nowhere else. (To be sure, they're accompanied by somatic experiences that a naive person or a poet might describe as a swelling heart.) A person undergoing an intense religious experience may cast around for something to embody it, i.e., to contain and keep it for him. He may hit on a rock outcrop, or the sun, or a river, or a cave, and there are examples of this from all over the world. But an invisible, intangible, unknowable, ineffable godling will work better than anything for the purpose, because it can't be reached, it's indestructible. Then hey! we're off to the religion races! with increasingly bloody-minded competition to see who can generate the most fervor! (The most tithes and the plumpest virgins too, but that comes later.) Nothing in all this internal moiling, this activity literally inside a human head, constitutes a speck of evidence for any kind of supernatural being. It tells us things about the human mind, good things and things we'd rather weren't true, but it doesn't make anybody 1inchrist.

I once started a thread on the religious experiences of atheists, using the term "religious" as C. G. Jung did, to mean a feeling of the numinous and transcendental. Not too many posted to that thread, but one of them was Bluegill, a good man who's seldom seen around here. He described a clearly religious experience of "the beauty and strangeness of the world" (thanks for the words, Black Elk) - and there was no chickenshite god in it anywhere.

Upchurch
7th September 2004, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Chanileslie
The answer is still no. If I had one minute left to live, I would like to spend that time on something useful such as telling my husband and children how important and special they are and how much I love them, not wasting my time on fantasies. I never actually answered the question, but this is what I'd do too. (Only my loved ones rather than Chanileslie's)

How selfish is it to spend your last moment alive on a random attempt to save your own backside rather than to provide your loved ones with one last happy memory? Something they can carry with them after you are gone?

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 10:02 AM
I think I would like to spent my last minute gasping out "all the money is hidden in the....argh." That should provide plenty of interesting conversation at the funeral.

Kimpatsu
7th September 2004, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by BillHoyt
anybody have trollbot anti-virus software?
Yes; it's called a sense of humour... ;)

uruk
7th September 2004, 10:15 AM
God gives us two choices - Heaven and Hell. Which do you want?

He forces no one to choice Hell and He forces no one to choose Heaven. Pretty fair in my opinion.

choose me or burn in hell. That's some fair choice.
That's like someone coming up to you and saying "give me all your money or I'll kill you."

Chanileslie
7th September 2004, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
What proof is there that Hinduism is true?

The exact same proof you have that Christianity is true. But to use your argument that Islam came after Christianity, so isn't as good then Christianity that came after Hinduism, so Hinduism must be better and more true! Now put down that hamburger.

Marquis de Carabas
7th September 2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by uruk
choose me or burn in hell. That's some fair choice.
That's like someone coming up to you and saying "give me all your money or I'll kill you."
More like someone coming up and saying "give me all your money or this guy three blocks down will kill you. Really, he's over there, I promise. Better believe me or you'll be sorry." :D

Nyarlathotep
7th September 2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch
I never actually answered the question, but this is what I'd do too. (Only my loved ones rather than Chanileslie's)



You wouldn't want to spend your last minute on Earth telling me how special I am to you?

I'm crushed, Upchurch:(

;)

Nyarlathotep
7th September 2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?

Lovely rephrasing of Pascal's wager you have there. Besides, when I was a younger and still a churchgoing young man, I was taught that your deathbed was too late and that only a sincere repentance meant anything. By that logic, a "just in case" conversion would be meaningless. It does, however, quite nicely demonstrate the fundamental error in your question.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by dmarker
Just because your deity may not be the right deity. What if I repent to yours then die only to discover that I've angered the real one? My best defense (hey, I didn't worship those other guys either) is gone.


Good time to trot out the wisdom of Homer Simpson.

" What if I'm going to the wrong church, and God is just getting madder and madder ? "

Gastric ReFlux
7th September 2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
Good time to trot out the wisdom of Homer Simpson.

" What if I'm going to the wrong church, and God is just getting madder and madder ? "

Isn't that's what's happening in Florida? So that's why God keeps sending those hurricanes as punishment?

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
Isn't that's what's happening in Florida? So that's why God keeps sending those hurricanes as punishment?

No, it's because Disney World allows "Gay Day". Pat Robertson said so, so it must be true.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by TragicMonkey
No, it's because Disney World allows "Gay Day". Pat Robertson said so, so it must be true.

But how does that account for hammering the sh-- out of the Bahamas while your at it?

Marquis de Carabas
7th September 2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Diogenes
But how does that account for hammering the sh-- out of the Bahamas while your at it?
Did anyone in the Bahamas lift a finger to stop Gay Day? No? Then they are just as responsible.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Did anyone in the Bahamas lift a finger to stop Gay Day? No? Then they are just as responsible.

Lol. They could have prayed for Mary to intercede.

kuroyume0161
7th September 2004, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Darat
And you doubt intercession as a doctrine and want biblical support for it?

You do know that Mel's film was made up? At best only some of the dialogue could be said to be “biblically” accurate. Everything else was made up.

I'll agree that it was made up. But by whom. Not Mel baby. No, this is worse than an elaborative script just to make money. This is REVELATION in its worst form: uncorroborated and totally BS. The source of Mel's film is a book:

"The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ"
by Anne Catherine Emmerich, published in 1833 after her death.

She was a nun in an Austrian convent in the late 18th to early 19th centuries. The entire account is drawn from the N.T. with elaborate elaborations drawn from revelation and nothing more.

Check out this info on her:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05406b.htm

Kuroyume

Upchurch
7th September 2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
You wouldn't want to spend your last minute on Earth telling me how special I am to you?

I'm crushed, Upchurch:( Who ever said that tenticaled Elder Gods aren't my "loved ones"?

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch
Who ever said that tenticaled Elder Gods aren't my "loved ones"?

Cthulhu fhtagn! Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl to all, and to all a good night!

Upchurch
7th September 2004, 12:27 PM
I'm afraid we may have overwelmed 1inChrist with our rather numerous, and sometimes hostile, responses.

The fact of the matter is, 1inChrist presents a false dilemma (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html) argument. There are simply more options than just (1) believe in Jesus or (2) go to Hell. Further, the false dilemma, itself, is based on an appeal to authority (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html) fallacy on the nature of reality, namely one interpretation of the Christian Bible. In other words, in order to establish the false dilemma, we must first accept the Christian Bible as a source of authority.

Given the Christian Bible's origins and the variations of interpretation of its meaning, it is unlikely that it is a creditable source of information on the nature of reality and, therefore, there is no reason to believe that the two options given above are the only options available to us.

So facing immenent death, I have no more reason to accept Jesus Christ with the expectation of escaping Hell than I do to spontaniously appeal to any other religious figure in a moment of fear and panic. Further, the question is addressed to "the hardest of hardcore atheists" (which I am not), who would have even less reason to do so, given their philosophical stance.

jj
7th September 2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Cthulhu fhtagn! Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl to all, and to all a good night!

Hey, stop that! It took 3 months to get rid of the rotten seaweed smell the last time my daughters chanted that! And we are still trying to figure out what to do with the tentacles that they chopped off. They're in the back yard, but they are rotting oh so slowly!

jj
7th September 2004, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?

How would I know that?
What lord would I "repent" to?
What Heaven would I aspire to?
Why should I even presume that there is a heaven?
Again, what "lord"? YHWH? Allah? "Of the Flies" The spirit of the dreamtime? The Raven? Coyote? The Lord of the Fox spirits? (shudder) The Moon Goddess?

I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific, and explain which superstition I'm being asked to acknowledge.

A man's retch should exceed his gasp, or what's a heavin' for!

Piscivore
7th September 2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Upchurch
I'm afraid we may have overwelmed 1inChrist with our rather numerous, and sometimes hostile, responses.


What's too bad is that I bet he sees the situation as being just that simple- we (atheists) for some reason persist in disbelief given the "facts" of Heaven and Hell. Why not just pick the "good" one? He, like many Xtians before him, seem unable to comprehend the situation may be radically different that that.

Even the title of his posts suggest this; I imagine his "hardcore atheists" huddled in the basement of an abandoned tenement, making spiritual pipe-bombs, penning angry, anti-theist manifestos, and discussing an agenda to overthrow belief. Since most American right-wing Protestants tend to equate atheism and Communism, I can see where they get this idea, but really, 1inC, it's incorrect. Granted, I bet you could find a couple like Newdow, trying to restore the Pledge; but then again Jesus people have abortion clinic bombers. Most of us "atheists" are just regular people, for whom "God" is no more a factor in our lives than Ahab. We pay taxes, send our kids to school, obey the law, and complain about the weather. Some of us are even Republicans. Almost every one of us has been to church- many of us have been deeper into it than your average Easter pew-warmer. If we were harsh with you, myself especially; I apologise. But realise your OP was pretty purile.

Upchurch
7th September 2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by jj
And we are still trying to figure out what to do with the tentacles that they chopped off. A little oregano and garlic in a marinade goes a long way with Cthulhu tentacles...


I do so love Elder Gods.

Tricky
7th September 2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by jj

What lord would I "repent" to?
What Heaven would I aspire to?
Why should I even presume that there is a heaven?
Again, what "lord"? YHWH? Allah? "Of the Flies" The spirit of the dreamtime? The Raven? Coyote? The Lord of the Fox spirits? (shudder) The Moon Goddess?
All of them (just in case). And all the others you can think of. Can't be too careful with your eternal soul.

Problem is, each repentance could only take less than a second in order to fit them all in. Then wouldn't you know it, the one you forgot would be the REAL God, and he'd be supremely p!ssed.

TragicMonkey
7th September 2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Piscivore
Even the title of his posts suggest this; I imagine his "hardcore atheists" huddled in the basement of an abandoned tenement, making spiritual pipe-bombs, penning angry, anti-theist manifestos, and discussing an agenda to overthrow belief.

It sounds exciting! When do we start?

CWL
7th September 2004, 01:15 PM
I won't repent to Crom. No point. He will not listen anyway.

sackett
7th September 2004, 01:17 PM
I've lived such a boring, excuse me, blameless life that I'd be hard put to think up anything to repent. It would take me longer than a minute, that's for sure.

Skeptical Greg
7th September 2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Piscivore
.......

We pay taxes, send our kids to school, obey the law, and complain about the weather. Some of us are even Republicans. Almost every one of us has been to church- many of us have been deeper into it than your average Easter pew-warmer. If we were harsh with you, myself especially; I apologise. But realise your OP was pretty purile.

You forgot:

A lot of us probably know more about his Bible and it's origins than he will ever know ( assuming he is not really looking for answers ), and one of the main reasons we have come to be ( the hardest of the hardcore ) atheists, that we are..

Flaherty
11th September 2004, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I hope they come back to Him. I worry because I get the feeling their teachers are liberals.

Oh no! Liberal teachers! Run away!!!!

Flaherty
11th September 2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?

No.

A more interesting group to ask that question is soldiers because during wartime they routinely face the prospect of sudden death. Specifically, why not ask these guys? Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (http://maaf.info/). Turns out, there really are atheists in foxholes.

Flaherty
11th September 2004, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you choose to come to Him, even in the last minute of your life, he would accept your apologies for your sins and let you in Heaven. Afterall, that's what our Lord suffered and died for. Have you seen Mel Gibson's, ''The Passion of the Christ''?

Here are the two biggest fundamental problems with Christian theology.

The first is the injustice of this form of entry requirement into heaven. An athesit who was kind and generous his whole life will be barred from heaven, while a murderer/rapist who repents at the last minute gets by the velvet rope. The atheist helped make the world a better place for his fellow humans through his kindness and generosity, while the other guy made it more hellish. The latter gets through the Pearly Gates and the former does not. Indeed, the former is punished eternally.

This fundamental incongruity proves to me that Christian theology is purely a human construct. No benevolent, wise, and just God would design a system with such a perverted incentive structure. Humans certainly could and would, but not the sort of deity commonly advertised by Christians. If any human exhibited this sort of sense of justice I would abhore it. I cannot logically admire in a deity things I despise in humans.

The second major problem with Christian theology again relates to justice. The notion that God would require an innocent person to die for the sins of others is absurd. CS Lewis tried to explain it as a hopeless debtor (humanity) being bailed out by a benefactor (Jesus) and thus spared the wrath of the collection agency (God). Jesus paid the debt we could not, God is now happy (or at least less angry), and humanity is off the hook.

Lewis' analogy is silly because the crimes of humanity are far more serious than a mere bad credit rating. A better analogy is this. The state (God) is set to execute a convicted murderer (humanity). At the last minute an innocent person (Jesus) voluntarily steps up and offers to be killed in the place of the condemned. The result is that an innocent person is executed and a murderer is let back out onto the streets. If the government actually did this, people would be outraged. Justice would not have been served, in fact, society would be worse off.

If you could explain this with something other than a vacuous "The Lord moves in mysterious ways" slogan, I would appreciate it.

thaiboxerken
11th September 2004, 10:29 AM
If you choose to come to Him, even in the last minute of your life, he would accept your apologies for your sins and let you in Heaven. Afterall, that's what our Lord suffered and died for. Have you seen Mel Gibson's, ''The Passion of the Christ''?

LOL!! This is hilarious!!! Obviously, this guy is just pulling our collective leg. I mean, really, a god and a jesus? Who actually believes in that kind of nonsense?

MLynn
11th September 2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by thaiboxerken
If you choose to come to Him, even in the last minute of your life, he would accept your apologies for your sins and let you in Heaven. Afterall, that's what our Lord suffered and died for. Have you seen Mel Gibson's, ''The Passion of the Christ''?

LOL!! This is hilarious!!! Obviously, this guy is just pulling our collective leg. I mean, really, a god and a jesus? Who actually believes in that kind of nonsense?
Statistics: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Polux
11th September 2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you knew you had exactly 1 minute to live, would you repent to the Lord so you could enter Heaven?

OK, I'm not among "the hardest of hardcore atheists"... but the answer is NO anyway.

Ratman_tf
11th September 2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I hope they come back to Him. I worry because I get the feeling their teachers are liberals.

This is where the thread went all Trollish, I think.

"Damn hippy, homosexual, liberal intellectuals! Smokin' pot and hatin' God!"