Suffragette City

[zenith-nadir]

A woman runs for office in Saudi Arabia - Thu Sep 16, 2004 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&ncid=721&e=5&u=/usatoday/20040916/ts_usatoday/awomanrunsforofficeinsaudiarabia) Last week, the 37-year-old architect and mother of two made a bid to clear the air with a daring step of her own: She declared herself a candidate for elected office - the first woman in Saudi history to do so.

Bakhurji's candidacy is part of a campaign by women who make up Saudi Arabia's embryonic suffrage movement.

Educated in England until high school, Bakhurji got her Bachelor's degree in interior design in Saudi Arabia. She was encouraged to run for office by her suffragette peers because of her professional experience in managing her own firm and staff for the past 10 years.

As part of its reform efforts, the Saudi government in recent months has allowed women to participate in a series of forums, set up by Crown Prince Abdullah, to discuss challenges facing the country.

Many Saudi women consider these major steps in a country where women are not allowed to drive, travel without permission from a male guardian, appear in public without being covered, nor work alongside men.

Bakhurji doesn't consider herself a radical. If the Saudi government doesn't grant women the right to vote, she'll drop her candidacy. You go girl!

[geni]

Strangly the saudi ruling body has always been slighlty ahead of public opion in terms of treating women as equal to men (see the fuss when they started funding schools for girls).

[The Fool]

Its all gods fault. Deities have a really bad habit of giving men lists of things women are not allowed to do.....

[evildave]

Now there's a nice gesture.

[BPSCG]

Do you think her chances of getting beaten to death are better than her chances of winning?

I take my hat off to her - this is genuine courage.

[evildave]

I don't think she'll be beaten to death, and it's improbable that she'll win anything besides a point or two. But there is the slimmest of chances they'll let her run. That would be more symbolic than anything, but it would be a beginning.

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by evildave
I don't think she'll be beaten to death, and it's improbable that she'll win anything besides a point or two. Likelihood of being beaten to death - 5%.

Likelihood of being elected to anything - 0.00%.

Does anyone doubt she's as brave as this guy at Tiananmen Square?

http://www.moulik.com/weblog/tank.JPG

[evildave]

Nope. No doubt at all that it takes courage. I just hope they don't shut the whole 'women talking' group down as a result.

I wouldn't place the likelihood of her being beaten to death as high as 5%, or even set her odds of winning at zero.

In a way, winning could be a more difficult challenge than running for the office.

With Saudi Arabia containing the very heart of Islamic faith, it would send some interesting shockwaves through the rest of Islam. It's probably begin already.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
You go girl!

Couldn't agree more and here as well.

'However we are still not satisfied with the number of women who serve in the Knesset.

In reality, in spite of the increase of women members in the Parliament during the last years, they still only number 18 out of 120 members. It is our sincere desire to see many more women in leadership positions in every sphere of life in our country.'
from http://www.israel-un.org/ecosoc/main_commissions/csw2004_modai.htm

Way to go girls - all over the world.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by George W. Bush
Consistent with my pro-life beliefs, I must emphasize that I disapprove of Saudi Arabia's embryonic suffrage movement.

Embryos should be protected, not made to suffrage.


On a more serious note, that Fraudi Arabia is planning elections at all is a step forward, and I welcome it.

MattJ

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Couldn't agree more and here as well. 'However we are still not satisfied with the number of women who serve in the Knesset. TRANSLATION: "Saudia Arabia has never had a woman in recorded history running for government...ya...whatever...now back to the eeeeeeevil jews!"


You're always good for a laugh E.J. ;)

[c0rbin]

Originally posted by BPSCG
Likelihood of being beaten to death - 5%.

Likelihood of being elected to anything - 0.00%.

Does anyone doubt she's as brave as this guy at Tiananmen Square?

http://www.moulik.com/weblog/tank.JPG

I wonder what Palistine would be like if those who felt truly oppressed by Isreal had this kind of courage (as opposed to the "courage" of sending a young man into a market place with explosives strapped to his body).

[Cleon]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
On a more serious note, that Fraudi Arabia is planning elections at all is a step forward, and I welcome it.

MattJ

Saudi Arabia has had elections for quite a while.

Needless to say, the Saud family decides who can run, who can vote, and what powers the "elected" have. So in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty much just for show.

[Skeptic]

Couldn't agree more and here as well.

'However we are still not satisfied with the number of women who serve in the Knesset.

(snort)

Saudi Arabia gets praise for the very fact that a woman might be allowed to run for public office, and this reflexively makes Mr. Armstrong remember he hasn't criticized israel for not having a 50%-female legistlative body for a long time now...

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Cleon
Saudi Arabia has had elections for quite a while.

Needless to say, the Saud family decides who can run, who can vote, and what powers the "elected" have. So in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty much just for show.

If that is true - help me out:

Who has run?

Who has voted?

What powers do the "elected" have?



I don't believe there has even been such a show since municiple elections were ended in the last province to hold them in the 1960s. I stand ready to be corrected, however.

MattJ

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Saudi Arabia gets praise for the very fact that a woman might be allowed to run for public office, and this reflexively makes Mr. Armstrong remember he hasn't criticized israel for not having a 50%-female legistlative body for a long time now...


He is a kick, isn't he? :)

[Charlie Monoxide]

Are women starting to get "uppity" in Saudi Arabia? Next they'll start accepting Israel as a soveriegn state.

Charlie (little hope, mostly gloom) Monoxide

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Couldn't agree more and here as well.

'However we are still not satisfied with the number of women who serve in the Knesset.

(snort)

Saudi Arabia gets praise for the very fact that a woman might be allowed to run for public office, and this reflexively makes Mr. Armstrong remember he hasn't criticized israel for not having a 50%-female legistlative body for a long time now...

Reminds me of when Demon showed that the student/teacher ratio was slightly higher among Arabs in Israel as proof of the "Nazi" government in Israel.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Reminds me of when Demon showed that the student/teacher ratio was slightly higher among Arabs in Israel as proof of the "Nazi" government in Israel.

The funniest part about that was that the difference wasn't even large--something in the order of, I believe, two or three more Arab students per class as opposed to jewish students, far smaller than (for instance) the difference between black and white students in the USA. Yes, that's nazism for you right there, yesiree Bob...

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Skeptic
The funniest part about that was that the difference wasn't even large--something in the order of, I believe, two or three more Arab students per class as opposed to jewish students, far smaller than (for instance) the difference between black and white students in the USA. Yes, that's nazism for you right there, yesiree Bob...

And, IIRC, the Israeli-Arab student/teacher ratio was better than at the school my kid goes to, which is a nice school.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Couldn't agree more and here as well.

'However we are still not satisfied with the number of women who serve in the Knesset.

In reality, in spite of the increase of women members in the Parliament during the last years, they still only number 18 out of 120 members. It is our sincere desire to see many more women in leadership positions in every sphere of life in our country.'
from http://www.israel-un.org/ecosoc/main_commissions/csw2004_modai.htm

Way to go girls - all over the world.

You do realize that in the year 2000 only 10% of the people in the FRENCH national legistlature were women.

In Israel it appears to be 15% which is higher of course.

You did not mention France?

Why not?

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
TRANSLATION: "Saudia Arabia has never had a woman in recorded history running for government...ya...whatever...now back to the eeeeeeevil jews!"

Is that how to do it in your quack Uri Geller world? Make up things that the other person never said.

I wondered if you were really concerned about women issues. It seems not, when the simple factual words, not of me, but of women from another Middle Eastern country drive you to such a torrent of abuse.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by ScepticSaudi Arabia gets praise for the very fact that a woman might be allowed to run for public office, and this reflexively makes Mr. Armstrong remember he hasn't criticized israel for not having a 50%-female legistlative body for a long time now...
Perhaps you failed to notice that they were not my words but those of the women themselves. Are their views not as important to you as the words of women from other countries?

I support the attempts of women all around the world to get their fair and legal rights where ever that may be. Do you?

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
He is a kick, isn't he?
Perhaps you feel that the women's views I reported are factually incorrect in some way or that women all over the world should not assert their rights?

[zenith-nadir]

Now you are the JREF advocate of womens rights in the Middle East...brilliant stuff E.J. ....I hate to rain on your parade but women don't have rights in the Middle East...hence this thread I started...

[E.J.Armstrong]

You did not mention France?

Why not??
France is not in the Middle East.

I did however refer to women all over the world. Last time I looked, the world included France.

Let me say once again that I support womens rights all over the world, whether in the Middle East, Europe, UK, USA, Russia or China etc. I make no differentiation whatsoever. I would love it if the male bastions in the arab countries such as France, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc were more representative of their populations. I suspect that they would be very much better places than they are now.

[gnome]

Originally posted by c0rbin
I wonder what Palistine would be like if those who felt truly oppressed by Isreal had this kind of courage (as opposed to the "courage" of sending a young man into a market place with explosives strapped to his body).

Absolutely! They'd have their own state and a UN seat by now.

[Skeptic]

You know, Mr. Armstrong, for someone who is "for the rights of woman in the middle east" and more general "makes no differentiation" between the rights of women all over the world, you seem to be rather over-focused on the rights of women in a country that takes up 0.5% of the middle east and 0.05% or so of the world in general.

It's not, after all, as if you post about women right's everywhere. You post about women's rights virtually ONLY in israel, for the obvious purpose of showing how "evil" israel is. It is just when your rather obvious obsession with "proving" israel is evil is pointed out, that you CLAIM to "care about women all over the world".

This is clearly a lie. As your posting history makes clear, your real point isn't women's rights--it's israel-bashing. Who do you think you're fooling with your protests, I have no idea.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
Now you are the JREF advocate of womens rights in the Middle East

I see you are still at it. Making things up others didn't say. Are you and Uri relatives perhaps?I hate to rain on your parade but women don't have rights in the Middle East I thought they had many rights in Israel that they do not have in other Middle Eastern countries. I welcome that.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Sceptic
So? Why do you feel that the rights of French women are less important than those of women in the middle east? Why are their voices not important to you?
So?
I don't.
They are.
Why is posting the words of Israeli women apparently such a problem for you?

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
So?
I don't.
They are.

So where are your posts in this forum talking about the awful, awful fate of the French women? Or Indonesian women? How about Chinese women? Gallic? Australian? Rwandan? Argentinian? Tibetian? Yemenite? Bantu? Eskimo? WASP?

If you are "making no distinction" about where in the world women's rights are protected and where in the world their voices are heard, it seems rather odd that you ONLY post about the "awful fate" of israeli women, ignoring the other 99.95% of the world's women virtually completely (let alone ignoring the fact that just about the only place in the middle east were women have rights IS israel).

Care to explain this rather, shall we say, odd discrepancy, where 99.5% of your posts about women's rights deal with 0.05% of the world's women? Call me paranoid, but I think that might just possibly have something to do with you trying to bash israel.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Perhaps you feel that the women's views I reported are factually incorrect in some way or that women all over the world should not assert their rights?

Or perhaps I feel it's disingenuous of you to advocate women's rights by highlighting the supposed shortcomings of the one nation in the Middle East that has the best record of advancing women's rights while simultaneously drawing attention away from a country that doesn't even allow a vote, much less a women's vote.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Sceptic
So where are your posts in this forum talking about the awful, awful fate of the French women? Or Indonesian women? How about Chinese women? Gallic? Australian? Rwandan? Argentinian? Tibetian? Yemenite? Bantu? Eskimo? WASP?
Perhaps you missed the point where I referred to women all over the world. Unless I am msitaken the last time I looked the world included France, Indonesia, China, Australian, Rwandan, Argentina, Yemen, Bantustan, Artic and all White anglo saxon protestant people - unless you know different.If you are "making no distinction" about where in the world women's rights are protected and where in the world their voices are heard, it seems rather odd that you ONLY post about the "awful fate" of israeli women, ignoring the other 99.95% of the world's women virtually completely (let alone ignoring the fact that just about the only place in the middle east were women have rights IS israel). THere you go again misrepresenting things. Perhaps you could indicate where I used the words ' awful fate'? Just for once can you stand by your claim?
Why are the factual worsd of Israeli women apparently driving you to distraction? Are they not allowed to ask for improvements. I whloe heartedly support them and the woman in Saudi Arabia. Good luck to them all.

PS if you read this thread you will find where I stated ' I thought they had many rights in Israel that they do not have in other Middle Eastern countries. I welcome that.' Perhaps you missed that. I am glad to help you.Care to explain this rather, shall we say, odd discrepancy, where 99.5% of your posts about women's rights deal with 0.05% of the world's women? Call me paranoid, but I think that might just possibly have something to do with you trying to bash israel. Do you want me to call you paranoid? If you believe that is the right diagnosis who am I to disagree.

Unfortunately you are telling porkies again. For the record, I mentioned women in Saudi Arabia, the Middle East, Israel and in countries all around the world. In my first post I supported the woman in Saudi Arabia. Including this post, I have made 8 contributions to this thread. In 7 I have referred to women from places other than Israel. I'm sorry but your statistics are simply bogus.

You know, Mr. Armstrong, for someone who is "for the rights of woman in the middle east" and more general "makes no differentiation" between the rights of women all over the world, you seem to be rather over-focused on the rights of women in a country that takes up 0.5% of the middle east and 0.05% or so of the world in general. YOu know Mr Sceptic, you don't seem to know how to calculate simple numbers. Perhaps I can suggest a good maths primer?It's not, after all, as if you post about women right's everywhere. You post about women's rights virtually ONLY in israel, for the obvious purpose of showing how "evil" israel is. It is just when your rather obvious obsession with "proving" israel is evil is pointed out, that you CLAIM to "care about women all over the world". This of course is a lie. Perhaps you would care to actually look at the thread? You are also making things up again as Uri Geller is wont to do. I never used the word "evil". As you know, that is your invention and it marks you out as a serial poster of fantasy but, same old, same old.. This is clearly a lie. As your posting history makes clear, your real point isn't women's rights--it's israel-bashing. Who do you think you're fooling with your protests, I have no idea. Wrong again of course. I notice that you are affronted by facts. If you were actually concerned with the rights of women you would endorse my sentiments. You do know I am laughing at your fantasies don't you? Good.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
Or perhaps I feel it's disingenuous of you to advocate women's rights by highlighting the supposed shortcomings of the one nation in the Middle East that has the best record of advancing women's rights while simultaneously drawing attention away from a country that doesn't even allow a vote, much less a women's vote.
It seems that if someone has the temerity to post the actual words of Israelis it cannot be allowed to stand on its own.

Now for some facts.

The first words I used were 'Couldn't agree more...' about the Saudi Arabian women.
When zenith-nadir made one of his factually incorrect claims I corrected him by stating ' I thought they had many rights in Israel that they do not have in other Middle Eastern countries. I welcome that.'

Sorry you appear to have missed them. Much like Sceptic apparently.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
The first words I used were 'Couldn't agree more...' about the Saudi Arabian women.
When zenith-nadir made one of his factually incorrect claims I corrected him by stating ' I thought they had many rights in Israel that they do not have in other Middle Eastern countries. I welcome that.'


Oh, so when you quoted an article saying, "However we are still not satisfied with the number of women who serve in the Knesset." you meant to praise Israel for being so advanced on women's equality.

You might want to work on your communication skills.

[Skeptic]

Perhaps you missed the point where I referred to women all over the world. Unless I am msitaken the last time I looked the world included France, Indonesia, China, Australian, Rwandan, Argentina, Yemen, Bantustan, Artic and all White anglo saxon protestant people - unless you know different.

Yes, but you only add the "oh, and I care about women all over the world" before you completely ignore all of them EXCEPT those in israel. You post one line "caring" about 99.95% of the world's women... and now that you "established" that you "really" care about all women equally, since you said the magic words, it's OK to then post message after message detailing the cruel, cruel faith of israeli ones.

It's as if I said, "oh, actually, I do care about the mentally retarded all over the world, for eample, poor Mr. Armstrong"--and then have post after post showing examples of your none-too-intelligent behavior, never bothering to mention anybody else as mentally retarded. That might cause you to think I have something against you in particular, and that the "I care about 'em all" is not much more than an obvious smokescreen to pretend it isn't really Armstrong-bashing, wouldn't you say?

Who do you think you're fooling with your "but I said the magic words!" defense here, I have no idea.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
Oh, so when you quoted an article saying, "However we are still not satisfied with the number of women who serve in the Knesset." you meant to praise Israel for being so advanced on women's equality.

You might want to work on your communication skills.
I find this fascinating. Not only do you seem unable to post without ad hominem attacks but it appears to have escaped you that the words I quoted are not my words. They are the words of the President of the of Israeli Women Organisations. I could be wrong, but the mere fact of me posting the words of Israeli women appears to be a problem in some way for you, zenith-nadir and Skeptic.

Let us have a look at what happened here.

As youand he so often do on this site, zenith-nadir started yet another thread with a connection to Muslims countries, Muslim groups or Islam.

I actually agreed with his original point for once, posted the words of the President of Israeli Women Organisations and added support for women all over the world.

What happened next was fascinating.

zenith-nadir almost immediately used the word 'evil' and referred to Jews despite the simple fact that I never used the word 'evil' nor referred to Jews. Putting words in quotes that were never used is an interesting tactic of his and its similar use by Skeptic will be discussed later in this post.

It may have also escaped zenith-nadir's attention that the words I posted were from the President of the Israeli Women Organizations. In the link I publicly quoted, she referred to both Arabs and Jews. Unlike her decent, honourable and presumably factual contribution, zenith-nadir appears once agin to try to equate Israeli with Jew. Perhaps he really does believe the Council of Israeli Womens Organistions excludes non-jews or that Israeli women are 'evil' for expressing their own concerns. I don't.

Skeptic also used the word 'evil' in quotes, yet failed to show where I used them in reference to Israel. Others will perhaps recognise this as one of his approaches to debate. He demonstrated an inability to use simple mathematics when he misrepresented the statistics of my posts. I believe that lie was deliberate. He also implied that he knew what was in my mind when he stated 'This is clearly a lie.' about my reference to my attitude to women all over the world. As he does not know my mind he appears to have bee drawing once again from the Uri Geller big book of sceptical arguments.

I asked him a simple question i.e. 'Why is posting the words of Israeli women apparently such a problem for you?' He didn't answer. He also put "awful fate" in quotes as though they were mine, then when asked to show where I used them, won't do so. This refusal to justify claims is a recognisable tactic which you also employ when you have refused to define who your are talking about in your own claim about the famous UTG (unidentified tiny group).

It is clearly not necessary to mention the failures of every country in the world when mentioning the shortcoming of one country. Although we have few things in common, this also appears to be the same approach you and zenith-nadir take when you start your many threads on things Muslim or Islamic.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Sceptic
Yes, but you only add the "oh, and I care about women all over the world" before you completely ignore all of them EXCEPT those in israel.

Tut tut Skeptic. You are lying once again.

You have put words in quotes that I never used as quoted. In other words, you have invented something, as you so often do.

Your propensity for fantasy has been noted before. I am noting it again here.

Before I deal with any more of your make believe, could I simply ask you to rectify this latest false implication?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Let us have a look at what happened here. As youand he so often do on this site, zenith-nadir started yet another thread with a connection to Muslims countries, Muslim groups or Islam.I started a thread about Saudi Arabia not Islam. The subject was about a 37-year-old architect and mother of two not Islam. Then you brought up Israel in some bizzare derail which ironically has nothing to do with Islam, Saudi Arabia or a 37-year-old architect and mother of two.

End of story.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
I started a thread about Saudi Arabia not Islam. The subject was about a 37-year-old architect and mother of two not Islam. Then you brought up Israel in some bizzare derail which ironically has nothing to do with Islam, Saudi Arabia or a 37-year-old architect and mother of two.

End of story.

Not quite the 'end of story'. EJA successfully derailed the thread and made it about Israel. He is talented. There is nothing you can do now to bring it back on track.

What I don't understand about EJA regard his motive for doing this. This was an interesting topic. Why did he feel he needed to derail it?

Anyway, back to the original topic, this is where it starts. If women there really get the right to both run for office (without being killed) and vote (without having their husbands present in the booth with them) then you'll see a real cultural change there for the better. Heck, being able to run for office isn't nearly as important as being able to vote. Still, it's going to take at least a hundred years before they can catch up to western liberalism.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
I started a thread about Saudi Arabia not Islam. The subject was about a 37-year-old architect and mother of two not Islam. Then you brought up Israel in some bizzare derail which ironically has nothing to do with Islam, Saudi Arabia or a 37-year-old architect and mother of two.

End of story.

Unfortunately you don't seem to have read my post. I also mentioned Muslim countries. Saudi Arabia is predominantly a Muslim country. I assumed that when you started this thread one of the areas of relevance was women's rights in the Middle East in general. It appears that wasn't your intention because when I posted the words of the head of a non-sectarian body from a nearby country you made this statement.

' TRANSLATION: "Saudia Arabia has never had a woman in recorded history running for government...ya...whatever...now back to the eeeeeeevil jews!"'


despite the simple fact that the organisation she represents was neither uni-religious or evil.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Rob Lister
Not quite the 'end of story'. EJA successfully derailed the thread and made it about Israel. He is talented. There is nothing you can do now to bring it back on track.
That is an interesting analysis given the final paragraph of your post.
What I don't understand about EJA regard his motive for doing this. This was an interesting topic. Why did he feel he needed to derail it? Unfortunately the presumption behind the question is erroneous. It seems that zenith-nadir was not interested in the wider issue of women's rights in the Middle East as his response to the words of another Middle Eastern woman seems to suggest. Anyway, back to the original topic, this is where it starts. If women there really get the right to both run for office (without being killed) and vote (without having their husbands present in the booth with them) then you'll see a real cultural change there for the better. Heck, being able to run for office isn't nearly as important as being able to vote. Still, it's going to take at least a hundred years before they can catch up to western liberalism. Perhaps.

Should western countries such as the UK and the USA promote womens' right in Saudi Arabia or should we just carry on supporting the people who preside over this lack of western liberal values and wait for the one hundred years to pass.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by EJ Armstrong:
I would love it if the male bastions in the arab countries such as France, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc were more representative of their populations. I suspect that they would be very much better places than they are now.

Like the UK after 11 years of Mrs T? Couldn't agree more.

BTW since when has France been an Arab country? I'd heard that the ethnic birthrate there was on the up, but never figured it was happening that fast.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Shane Costello
Like the UK after 11 years of Mrs T? Couldn't agree more.

BTW since when has France been an Arab country? I'd heard that the ethnic birthrate there was on the up, but never figured it was happening that fast.

Spot on. We are more representative now than we were then. I voted for a woman in an all women's candidate list from the party of my choice. We still have some way to go though. That's one of the reasons I mentioned women all around the world.

You got me fair and square. France is not an Arab country. No excuses. It's a fair cop.