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1inChrist
28th September 2004, 05:20 AM
People always ask ''If God is loving, why does He send people to tell knowing before He created them that their eternal home would be the Lake of Fire?''

Simple. Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him. Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God! If God decides not to do something because of evil that means God has been defeated by evil and that cannot happen. He HAD to create us or evil would of defeated God.

Why reject Him and the Truth found in His Word? Yes the Lake of fire is a terrible place of horror, torture and pain but He gives us a chance to escape.

Ossai
28th September 2004, 05:40 AM
1inChrist
Why reject Him and the Truth found in His Word? Yes the Lake of fire is a terrible place of horror, torture and pain but He gives us a chance to escape.

Which version of your god are you talking about?

If it’s the omni-god, then god could have indeed created everyone to know about and accept god, no exceptions.

If you want to limit your god and claim that human’s have freewill, then you may have a case about god creating people and not interfering but then you have the added conundrum of people not knowing about god.

Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? How can some people reject god when they have never been offered him in the first place?

Ossai

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 06:06 AM
Which version of your god are you talking about?

Don't play that typical sceptical nonsense with me. You know very well which God I am talking about. I am talking about the one True God who's Word is contained in the Holy Bible. What other God condemns people to an eternal Hellfire? Stop trying to compare the one True God with those pagan idols.

If it’s the omni-god, then god could have indeed created everyone to know about and accept god, no exceptions.

He did. Want to know His Word?The Holy Bible (www.biblegateway.com)

If you want to limit your god and claim that human’s have freewill, then you may have a case about god creating people and not interfering but then you have the added conundrum of people not knowing about god.

They all know Him. They just choose to reject Him. How can you not know Him? I have been informing you all of the Truth of Christ. You have just chosen to reject this Truth.

How can some people reject god when they have never been offered him in the first place?

I'm telling you! You have two choices:

#1: Reject His Word and suffer in the eternal Hellfire.

#2: Accept the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross and spend eternity in Heaven with God, the Angels and the Saved.

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 06:10 AM
My question on this situation is not "why create us if He knew we would not believe in Him", but rather, "Why punish anyone for not believing in Him?"

First, it isn't like God's existence is totally obvious. If it were totally obvious, people of both reason and faith would agree that God exists. As it is, there just isn't enough information. The decision on whether or not to believe might as well come down to a coin flip (or multiple coin flips given how many god-beliefs there are to choose from). It is the equivalent of saying, "I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 1000. Here are a thousand groups, each telling you it is a different number. Guess it or suffer in agony forever." It's like Russian Roulette in reverse, only one chamber is empty.

Second, how vain is it on God's part to punish those who didn't randomly choose the "right" god-belief? "Believe in me, and only me, or I will go medieval on you." Does that make any sence whatsoever? What is the point, to boost God's ego?

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I'm telling you! You have two choices:

#1: Reject His Word and suffer in the eternal Hellfire.

#2: Accept the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross and spend eternity in Heaven with God, the Angels and the Saved. So you say. They guy down the street says something different, and the next guy after that.

Stimpson J. Cat
28th September 2004, 06:13 AM
1inChrist,

People always ask ''If God is loving, why does He send people to tell knowing before He created them that their eternal home would be the Lake of Fire?''

Simple. Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him. Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God! If God decides not to do something because of evil that means God has been defeated by evil and that cannot happen. He HAD to create us or evil would of defeated God.

Bad logic. The question you posed was "why does god send people to Hell?", not "why does god create bad people?". What purpose is served by tormenting the bad ones for all eternity? Why not just cast them away? Or destroy them outright? Does god not have the power to do this? If he does, and chooses to torture them instead, then he is cruel and evil. There is no way to get around that conclusion. Torturing people, even bad people, is wrong. Besides, human beings have only finite power. Even if you believe in the naive notion of vengeance-as-justice that the Bible advocates, nothing a human being could do could ever make him deserving of infinite punishment. Even the most cruel and vile bastard the Earth has ever seen, would be getting infinitely more punishment than they could possibly deserve.

Another flaw in your logic is the notion that only the evil ones go to hell. Unless your definition of "evil" is simply "anybody who doesn't accept Jesus", this makes no sense. According to the Bible, most who have ever lived are in Hell right now. This includes lots of good people who either never even heard of your god, or were not convinced by the idiotic arguments presented by his followers, and therefore did not believe.

Why reject Him and the Truth found in His Word? Yes the Lake of fire is a terrible place of horror, torture and pain but He gives us a chance to escape.

No, he gives a chance to avoid it, but only if we are lucky enough to hear about it, and gullible enough to believe what we have heard with no evidence to back it up. There is no escape once you are there. Not according to your Bible.


Dr. Stupid

Skeptical Greg
28th September 2004, 06:19 AM
Isn't your God supposed to be just?


What is just about infinite punishment for a finite crime?

I can understand a God that wants to be popular, but why not just leave people alone if they don't want to play. Why does he need to torture them. Doesn't sound like anyone I want to know.

What kind of person are you, that you think such behaviour is justified?

MRC_Hans
28th September 2004, 06:23 AM
This hell you talk about. How do you make people suffer in hell? Torture applies pain to a physical body. In hell, people arrive only as souls. How do you make an immortal soul suffer?

Hans

TragicMonkey
28th September 2004, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him.


Why does God need his creations to "bathe" in his "glory"? He desires a fan club? And for not joining you will be tortured forever? Sounds like God has a Streisand complex.


Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God! If God decides not to do something because of evil that means God has been defeated by evil and that cannot happen. He HAD to create us or evil would of defeated God.

So, God is playing some sort of game? Why? If he's all-powerful, he can win any time he wants to. Clearly, he wants the fun of gambling, and if that means sending billions into eternal torment he's okay with that. Remember, he's all-powerful. He could stop playing and rescue the missing pieces whenever he chooses. The torment is also of his devising.

No wonder he needs to threaten people with an eternity of torment in order to get some enrollment into his fan club!

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 06:52 AM
I think the best justification is that you'll get to laugh up in heaven listening to the "Holy Holy Holy Holy" chant while the depraved heathen unbelievers burn forever and ever.


"Unrepentant heathens will be lit on fire for all eternity!!! They will have resurrected bodies that can never die. However, they will be on fire and burn in intense unimanginable pain and suffering!!! Screaming from the tops of their lungs for trillions and trillions of googles!!! Never, ever, not even for one (1) minute having rest from being on fire!!!... There are not long enough graphs to put the equation of eternal Suffering and pain on.

Think of being in your garage and accidently having the gas can fall on you and spill all over you and your clothes. Then your nieghbor throws his cigarette over the fence and fffrrrooommmmm!!! You've just been lit on fire! You start screaming and yelling for help! Your eyes are burning with fire so you can't see, therefore you run into the outside wall of your house and fall down and just keep burning and screaming in pain!!! Well that would be a vacation to those who will burn in the lake of fire!!!

What's my point? Even if the homoSEXuals, liars, ABORTIONists, and all haters of GOD, succede in their political whoredom, who do they really wind up burning in the end??????? "
- Sola Gratia, Christianity.com forums (http://forums.christianity.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=617699;page=1;sb =post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=10913080#617 699)

Sounds like your daughters will end up extra crispy, huh? But I suppose that's just a temptation from Satan to make you wonder why a just and loving God would do such a thing.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 06:57 AM
My question on this situation is not "why create us if He knew we would not believe in Him", but rather, "Why punish anyone for not believing in Him?"

The original parents decided to disobey the Lord which is why we are all destined to the eternal Hellfire. However, Jesus Christ who died on the Cross will give us eternal Salvation and all we have to do is accept Him as our Lord and Savior.

First, it isn't like God's existence is totally obvious. If it were totally obvious, people of both reason and faith would agree that God exists.

It is obvious. Biblical prophecy proves God exists. (http://www.cjf.org/pages/fulfilled.htm)

As it is, there just isn't enough information. The decision on whether or not to believe might as well come down to a coin flip (or multiple coin flips given how many god-beliefs there are to choose from). It is the equivalent of saying, "I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 1000. Here are a thousand groups, each telling you it is a different number. Guess it or suffer in agony forever." It's like Russian Roulette in reverse, only one chamber is empty.

I am right now telling you about the Lord and His plan of Salvation. You cannot claim on judgement day that you were never warned.

Second, how vain is it on God's part to punish those who didn't randomly choose the "right" god-belief? "Believe in me, and only me, or I will go medieval on you." Does that make any sence whatsoever? What is the point, to boost God's ego? [/B]

God gave you a choice. It's YOUR choice, not His. He gave you free will. I am telling you right now you have to choices. Follow the Lord or go to Hell. What is your desicion?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 06:58 AM
So you say. They guy down the street says something different, and the next guy after that.

Other religions cannot be trusted as The Word warns of false prophets, idols and gods.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:02 AM
Bad logic. The question you posed was "why does god send people to Hell?", not "why does god create bad people?". What purpose is served by tormenting the bad ones for all eternity? Why not just cast them away? Or destroy them outright? Does god not have the power to do this? If he does, and chooses to torture them instead, then he is cruel and evil. There is no way to get around that conclusion. Torturing people, even bad people, is wrong. Besides, human beings have only finite power. Even if you believe in the naive notion of vengeance-as-justice that the Bible advocates, nothing a human being could do could ever make him deserving of infinite punishment. Even the most cruel and vile bastard the Earth has ever seen, would be getting infinitely more punishment than they could possibly deserve.

I do not know why God has chosen what He has but I do not question God. If God does it, He has His reasons. Fact: God=Good. If God does it, it's good whether we humans agree or not. God can not do evil.

Another flaw in your logic is the notion that only the evil ones go to hell. Unless your definition of "evil" is simply "anybody who doesn't accept Jesus", this makes no sense. According to the Bible, most who have ever lived are in Hell right now. This includes lots of good people who either never even heard of your god, or were not convinced by the idiotic arguments presented by his followers, and therefore did not believe.

You are evil in the eyes of God if you reject Him and live a life of sin and are a servant to the Beast.

No, he gives a chance to avoid it, but only if we are lucky enough to hear about it, and gullible enough to believe what we have heard with no evidence to back it up. There is no escape once you are there. Not according to your Bible.

You have heard about His Word. Gullible? Is it Gullible to accept Christ as your Savior? No. Is it Gullible to want to go to Heaven and not Hell? No.

Skeptical Greg
28th September 2004, 07:02 AM
You still haven't explained why a God who would torture people for eternity is an O.K. thing with you?

DaveW
28th September 2004, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist

It is obvious. Biblical prophecy proves God exists. (http://www.cjf.org/pages/fulfilled.htm)

Funny, the Bible also disproves itself several times. Here's some failed/erroneous/questionable prophecies related to Matthew (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/pr_list.html). And that's just one book.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:05 AM
Your excuse for your god's regime of eternal torture boils down to 'my god is a petulant child, deal with it.' Well, I'm not dealing. I'll take torture before I kowtow to someone's ego trip.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:06 AM
Isn't your God supposed to be just?

He is Just.

What is just about infinite punishment for a finite crime?

In the eyes of God ONE sin is worth an eternity of suffering. Sin is BAD BAD BAD. Sin in God's eyes is horrific and NOT tolerated.

I can understand a God that wants to be popular, but why not just leave people alone if they don't want to play. Why does he need to torture them. Doesn't sound like anyone I want to know.

Sorry but we humans don't make the rules. God does.

What kind of person are you, that you think such behaviour is justified?

Whatever God does is Just. If you disagree it's YOUR opinion that is false, not God's.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:07 AM
This hell you talk about. How do you make people suffer in hell? Torture applies pain to a physical body. In hell, people arrive only as souls. How do you make an immortal soul suffer?

God can do anything.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God can do anything.
Comforting to know that God brings all the might of ominpotence to bear on the problem of how to torture people. We wouldn't want him to do a sloppy job, now, would we?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:10 AM
Why does God need his creations to "bathe" in his "glory"? He desires a fan club? And for not joining you will be tortured forever? Sounds like God has a Streisand complex.

God created us because He wanted us to praise and love Him. Sadly, the original parents turned away from Him which damned all us to the Hellfire.

So, God is playing some sort of game? Why? If he's all-powerful, he can win any time he wants to. Clearly, he wants the fun of gambling, and if that means sending billions into eternal torment he's okay with that. Remember, he's all-powerful. He could stop playing and rescue the missing pieces whenever he chooses. The torment is also of his devising.

God doesn't gamble. He knows all. Past, present, future and eternity.

No wonder he needs to threaten people with an eternity of torment in order to get some enrollment into his fan club! [/B]

He doesn't threaten anyone. He lays out the facts: Follow my commands or go to Hell.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God created us because He wanted us to praise and love Him.
That may be the single saddest thing I've ever heard.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:12 AM
Comforting to know that God brings all the might of ominpotence to bear on the problem of how to torture people. We wouldn't want him to do a sloppy job, now, would we? [/B]

Why try and fight an omnipotent being? You can never win, not even with Satan on your side. Yes, Satan is a very powerful demon but even he and his army of Angels cannot compare to the power of God.

Skeptical Greg
28th September 2004, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
He is Just.



In the eyes of God ONE sin is worth an eternity of suffering. Sin is BAD BAD BAD. Sin in God's eyes is horrific and NOT tolerated.



Sorry but we humans don't make the rules. God does.



Whatever God does is Just. If you disagree it's YOUR opinion that is false, not God's.

Why can't you answer the question?


Why do YOU think it is O.K. for any being to torture someone?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:13 AM
That may be the single saddest thing I've ever heard.

Why is it sad?

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why try and fight an omnipotent being? You can never win, not even with Satan on your side. Yes, Satan is a very powerful demon but even he and his army of Angels cannot compare to the power of God.
A. There is no such omnipotent being for me to fight.
B. Refer to the post previous to the one you quote, in which I call your God a petulant child, and imply that if He exists as you describe Him, He is utterly unworthy of worship. Furthermore, He is the most contemptible being in the universe.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:15 AM
Why do YOU think it is O.K. for any being to torture someone?

God is the creator and destroyer of life. We exist because of His will and we will cease to exist because of His will. He is the master, creator and God of all mankind. He can do what He wishes with us as He created us.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God created us because He wanted us to praise and love Him.



Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
That may be the single saddest thing I've ever heard.

I don't know. I find it vaguely amusing. The idea of a god, completely powerful, yet so insecure he has to create his own fanclub. Then give the "fans" free will, so if they don't keep playing in the fanclub, they go to hell.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why is it sad?
You don't find it sad that lonely ol' God had to create us to keep Him company and feed His ego? Like we're some perverse little deific fantasy?

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
I don't know. I find it vaguely amusing. The idea of a god, completely powerful, yet so insecure he has to create his own fanclub. Then give the "fans" free will, so if they don't keep playing in the fanclub, they go to hell.

That doesn't inspire you to worship? :confused:

Geeze, what does it take people for you to believe?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:17 AM
A. There is no such omnipotent being for me to fight.

Yes there is.

B. Refer to the post previous to the one you quote, in which I call your God a petulant child, and imply that if He exists as you describe Him, He is utterly unworthy of worship. Furthermore, He is the most contemptible being in the universe.

Fine. Choose to reject Him because you disagree with His actions. Just be prepared to face the consequences of your choice in the End.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
That doesn't inspire you to worship? :confused:

Geeze, what does it take people for you to believe?
Free Chee-tos would do it for me. But I hear heaven only stocks generic snacks.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:19 AM
You don't find it sad that lonely ol' God had to create us to keep Him company and feed His ego? Like we're some perverse little deific fantasy?

He also gives us so much in return! He gives us a chance to bathe in His Glory for eternity in Heaven!

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:20 AM
Free Chee-tos would do it for me. But I hear heaven only stocks generic snacks.

Heaven is said to be LUXURIOUS.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Free Chee-tos would do it for me. But I hear heaven only stocks generic snacks.

Not for me...I don't like Cheetos. You get that yucky orange powder all over your fingers. I can't imagine dealing with that for all eternity. Now, if you are talking an eternity of chocolate...

Skeptical Greg
28th September 2004, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God is the creator and destroyer of life. We exist because of His will and we will cease to exist because of His will. He is the master, creator and God of all mankind. He can do what He wishes with us as He created us. And this is your idea of love?

El Greco
28th September 2004, 07:22 AM
God used to exist but I destroyed him during a duel. It was a hard fight but I was better prepared. I also destroyed Hell. I wanted to spare Paradise, but I thought "what the Hell" and I destroyed that too.

There is no God anymore. Just look around, you will see no signs of him. I'm looking for his son right now, but I think he's hiding.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:23 AM
And this is your idea of love?

My idea of love is a God who creates us and gives us a chance to recieve a reward of eternal happiness in Heaven. All we have to do is follow Him and reject Satan.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Heaven is said to be LUXURIOUS.

Perhaps, but it would also be (theoretically) filled with the very same narrow-minded bigots I can't stand in life. Why would I want that for eternity?

DaveW
28th September 2004, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
He doesn't threaten anyone. He lays out the facts: Follow my commands or go to Hell.

How is this not a threat?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:24 AM
God used to exist but I destroyed him during a duel. It was a hard fight but I was better prepared. I also destroyed Hell. I wanted to spare Paradise, but I thought "what the Hell" and I destroyed that too.

You cannot destroy God for He is eternal and omnipotent.

There is no God anymore. Just look around, you will see no signs of him. I'm looking for his son right now, but I think he's hiding.

Yes He is. You just put your hands over your ears and say ''There is no God. There is no God. There is no God. There is no God.'' However rejecting and ignoring Him won't make Him magically go away.

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
My idea of love is a God who creates us and gives us a chance to recieve a reward of eternal happiness in Heaven. All we have to do is follow Him and reject Satan.

But if all your other assumptions were correct, then it would be only logical that a person would choose to believe. Unfortunately, your own brilliant slaying of logical presuppositions shows that Satan must be behind this, so you best get out your salt shaker and start flinging salt over your left shoulder.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
He also gives us so much in return! He gives us a chance to bathe in His Glory for eternity in Heaven!
Oh, didn't realise that. Bathe in his glory forever? Sounds like gobs of fun. Where do I sign up?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:27 AM
Perhaps, but it would also be (theoretically) filled with the very same narrow-minded bigots I can't stand in life. Why would I want that for eternity?

Your alternative. (http://www.av1611.org/hell.html)

Mercutio
28th September 2004, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God doesn't gamble. He knows all. Past, present, future and eternity.

He doesn't threaten anyone. He lays out the facts: Follow my commands or go to Hell. So this god of yours already knows whether or not I will be frying in hell for all eternity. He already knows that this little experiment of his will result in billions of souls in eternal torment, and he's just fine with that?

Actually, I am writing for a clarification of something somebody told me years ago. You see, 1inchrist, I am a former born-again christian, but am now firmly an atheist. However, I was told by a proselytizer once that the door to heaven is a one-way door, that since I was saved decades ago, I am safe now, even if I no longer believe there is any evidence whatsoever that a god exists. So tell me...am I saved? Can I really go around telling people not to believe, telling people that the bible is fiction, arguing against your message, and then still go to heaven? Like I say, I was assured that this is the case, and I am just looking to see whether another firm believer like yourself agrees with this other guy.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
Not for me...I don't like Cheetos. You get that yucky orange powder all over your fingers. I can't imagine dealing with that for all eternity. Now, if you are talking an eternity of chocolate...
Well, when I run heaven, free chocolate for you. Not generic crap either. And you don't even have to feed my ego to get in. Just pay the $5 cover, and remember the two drink minimum.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:29 AM
Oh, didn't realise that. Bathe in his glory forever? Sounds like gobs of fun. Where do I sign up?

:) (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/2_heaven.htm) Click on the smiley face. Today is truley a Glorious day if you repent for your sins.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Your alternative. (http://www.av1611.org/hell.html)

Actually, that is YOUR alternative. Mine is nothingness.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:31 AM
So this god of yours already knows whether or not I will be frying in hell for all eternity. He already knows that this little experiment of his will result in billions of souls in eternal torment, and he's just fine with that?

Actually, I am writing for a clarification of something somebody told me years ago. You see, 1inchrist, I am a former born-again christian, but am now firmly an atheist. However, I was told by a proselytizer once that the door to heaven is a one-way door, that since I was saved decades ago, I am safe now, even if I no longer believe there is any evidence whatsoever that a god exists. So tell me...am I saved? Can I really go around telling people not to believe, telling people that the bible is fiction, arguing against your message, and then still go to heaven? Like I say, I was assured that this is the case, and I am just looking to see whether another firm believer like yourself agrees with this other guy.

God will ask you in the End ''Why did you turn away from Salvation?'' See you turned away from Him meaning no, you are NOT saved.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by DaveW
How is this not a threat?

God is only laying out the law. Don't like it? Tough. You didn't write the rules, He did.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
:) (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/2_heaven.htm) Click on the smiley face. Today is truley a Glorious day if you repent for your sins.
What about cats? Do they get into Heaven? I ain't going without Puss. (Oh, he's a Bastist. Will that be a problem?)

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
Actually, that is YOUR alternative. Mine is nothingness.

No you will be sent to the eternal Flame if you do not repent.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
What about cats? Do they get into Heaven? I ain't going without Puss. (Oh, he's a Bastist. Will that be a problem?)

Animals do not have souls.

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
What about cats? Do they get into Heaven? I ain't going without Puss. (Oh, he's a Bastist. Will that be a problem?)

Cats don't have souls, so no they won't be there. I also think that makes it all right to torture them. If they don't have souls, they're just meat puppets and don't really feel anything.

DaveW
28th September 2004, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God is only laying out the law. Don't like it? Tough. You didn't write the rules, He did.

Great. That still doesn't make it not a threat.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
No you will be sent to the eternal Flame if you do not repent.

So your god will send me to hell because I don't kowtow to him, even though I have led an entirely moral life? More moral than many so-called Christians, I might add.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
But if all your other assumptions were correct, then it would be only logical that a person would choose to believe. Unfortunately, your own brilliant slaying of logical presuppositions shows that Satan must be behind this, so you best get out your salt shaker and start flinging salt over your left shoulder.

Satan is real. God is real. Humans are real.

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist

all we have to do is accept Him as our Lord and SaviorIsn't there a belief requirement as well?

God can not do evil
So, is this part wrong?:

"...and God repented of the evil that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." -Jonah 3:10

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Animals do not have souls.
Oh, that's going to be a problem. No Chee-tos, no Puss, no Marquis. Give God my regards.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
So your god will send me to hell because I don't kowtow to him, even though I have led an entirely moral life? More moral than many so-called Christians, I might add.

God is not just my God, He is EVERYONE'S God whether they reject Him or not. You cannot be moral without Jesus.

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Satan is real. God is real. Humans are real.

Proof enough for me! Woo hoo heaven here I come!

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God is not just my God, He is EVERYONE'S God whether they reject Him or not. You cannot be moral without Jesus.
We're going to need some evidence on that one. No morals without JC? Just to pull a random example out of the air...Gandhi wasn't moral??

Stimpson J. Cat
28th September 2004, 07:40 AM
Oh, my mistake. Haven't been following the board closely for a while, and did not check around before posting. If I had realized that 1inChrist was a complete nutjob, I would not have bothered. Sorry for accidentally feeding the troll.

Dr. Stupid

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by DaveW
Great. That still doesn't make it not a threat.

It's a CHOICE you must make.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God is not just my God, He is EVERYONE'S God whether they reject Him or not. You cannot be moral without Jesus.


Here's a book for you:


Science of Good and Evil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805075208/qid=1096382492/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-2541807-2092707?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

Try reading it. You might start thinking for a change.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:43 AM
Isn't there a belief requirement as well?

Yes you must believe He is your Savior.

So, is this part wrong?:

"...and God repented of the evil that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." -Jonah 3:10

He just said He would but never did it.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
We're going to need some evidence on that one. No morals without JC? Just to pull a random example out of the air...Gandhi wasn't moral??

I'd like to add The Dalai Lama.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
We're going to need some evidence on that one. No morals without JC? Just to pull a random example out of the air...Gandhi wasn't moral??

No Gandhi did not accept Christ as His Savior. He was not Saved.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
It's a CHOICE you must make.
Many threats give you a choice. Does this make kidnapping for ransom just? I mean, it's not like anyone has to pay. They can just let you off their kids. No problem.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
I'd like to add The Dalai Lama.

Nope. Without Jesus these men do not stand a chance at entering the gates of Heaven.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
No Gandhi did not accept Christ as His Savior. He was not Saved.

You said a person without Christ couldn't be moral. Are you saying Ghandi wasn't moral? Not asking about being saved here, just morality.

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
It's a CHOICE you must make.

A serial killer locks you in his basement. He then gives you a free will choice to love him, or he gets to keep you alive and pour acid on your various body parts as punishment for not loving him. This will last for all eternity if you do not worship him. If you do worship him, you'll get to sit on the comfy beanbag and watch all the television you want.

What do you do?

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
No Gandhi did not accept Christ as His Savior. He was not Saved.
But was he moral? If no, why not? (Note that saying because he was not saved isn't going to cut it here.)

edit: ah, scooped by Lisa...so, um, what she said.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Many threats give you a choice. Does this make kidnapping for ransom just? I mean, it's not like anyone has to pay. They can just let you off their kids. No problem.

False analogy. Kidnappers do not control the universe or make the rules, God does.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
A serial killer locks you in his basement. He then gives you a free will choice to love him, or he gets to keep you alive and pour acid on your various body parts as punishment for not loving him. This will last for all eternity if you do not worship him. If you do worship him, you'll get to sit on the comfy beanbag and watch all the television you want.

What do you do?
Does he have cable?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
You said a person without Christ couldn't be moral. Are you saying Ghandi wasn't moral? Not asking about being saved here, just morality.

No Gandhi was not moral. You cannot be moral without Jesus Christ.

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist

So, is this part wrong?:

"...and God repented of the evil that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." -Jonah 3:10

--------------------------------------------------------

He just said He would but never did it.
The question remains: Is God capable of evil?

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
It is obvious. Biblical prophecy proves God exists. (http://www.cjf.org/pages/fulfilled.htm) Oh, this is fun

Prophecy: Israel would be partitioned by the nations of the world (compare Joel 3:2).

Fulfillment: On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly approved a motion to partition Palestine into two separate states.
So let's compare with Joel 3:2, "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land." I suppose it could loosely fit, but did the UN go on to "And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink." as it says in Joel 3:2? In other words, did the UN trade children for women and booze? No? hm.
Prophecy: Israel would be voted into existence by the nations of the world (compare Ezekiel 38:8).

Fulfillment: On May 16, 1949, Israel was accepted as a member nation of the United Nations.Ezekiel 38:8, "After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them."

The problem is that God is speaking specifically to Ezekiel and this prophesy is what would happen to him. So, unless Ezekiel was there on May 16, 1949 (a great stretch of the phrase "after many days"), this didn't come to pass but was taken out of context to justify the author's position.

As an aside, you think Israel is "dwelling safely" with the nations? :eek:
Prophecy: Israel would regain her land through warfare (compare Ezekiel 38:8).

Fulfillment: Four major wars have been fought in the Middle East since 1948. Israel’s highly trained and well-equipped armed forces have successfully defended her territory each time, even against overwhelming odds. The Middle East remains the most volatile and unpredictable region on the globe.A possible hit, if you ignore that none of this managed to actually happen to Ezekiel. (It's amazing how much you can make fit into one passage if you ignore the context.)
Prophecy: Once Israel returned to her Land, she would not be removed from it (compare Amos 9:15).

Fulfillment: Attempts by the Palestine Liberation Organization to remove Israel from her land have failed miserably—so much so, in fact, that Israel has effectively wiped out the PLO’s stronghold in southern Lebanon and west Beirut. Even many of her Arab neighbors, like Jordan and Egypt, have officially recognized Israel’s right to exist as a free nation.Amos 9:15, "And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God. "[/quote]Questionable since conflict isn't exactly over. Plus, didn't Sharon just make a deal to remove illegal Israeli settlers from Palestinian territory?
Prophecy: Israel would regain the city of Jerusalem (compare Obadiah 1:20).

Fulfillment: On June 7, 1967, the Old City of Jerusalem came under Jewish control for the first time in almost 2,000 years.Obadiah 1:20, "And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south."

I'll grant you that my geography is weak, but have they managed to "possess" all of the terratories listed or just the one? I honestly don't know where those areas are in modern times.
Prophecy: Israel would possess the West Bank and regain the regions of Samaria, the Gaza Strip, and the Sinai (compare Obadiah 1:19-20).

Fulfillment: In June 1967, and October 1973, Israel successfully captured back all of the land that was partitioned by the United Nations in 1947. Small portions of this area were returned in the spring of 1982, under the provisions of the Camp David Peace Accords. Since then, Israel has returned other portions of the land along the Jordan River’s West Bank to the Palestinians. The current peace talks hinge on Israel’s giving away even more land, and that which she will promise. However, in the final analysis, Israel would have no trouble reoccupying these areas if she so desiredThat's interesting, didn't Amos 9:15 supposedly just claim that once the land was returned to Isreal, Isreal would not be removed from it? I guess that's okay since "Isreal would have no trouble reoccupying ... if she so desired" :rolleyes: I think the author needs to play closer attention to the news.
Prophecy: The Jewish people would return from all the countries where they had been scattered (compare Ezekiel 36:24, Isaiah 49:12).

Fulfillment: After 50 years, Israel has a Jewish population approaching five million.yeah, I know lots of Jewish people that have no intention of leaving the US. I wouldn't count this as a hit.



Gotta run. Can't finish, I'm afraid, but all I see here is cherry picking and stretching events to fit predicitons that are out of context.

Ipecac
28th September 2004, 07:48 AM
Man, 1inC, reason has absolutely no truck with you, does it?

Why christians insist on worshipping some vain, hateful, violent, self-centered child who would create and torture others for simply not believing in him is beyond me.

Here's a question. What of the billions of people who existed between 100 AD and, say 1900 AD who had no contact, absolutely none, with the bible and who never heard of Jesus? I'm talking Indians, Chinese, Japanese, American Indian, South Americans, Aleutians, Africans, and millions of others.

We KNOW that the bible didn't reach these people until centuries after Jesus supposedly laid down the law. Billions died without ever hearing the word. So did they go to heaven or hell?

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Does he have cable?

Of course, this serial killer has an infinite number of channels. They all play "Holy Holy Holy Holy" though.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
A serial killer locks you in his basement. He then gives you a free will choice to love him, or he gets to keep you alive and pour acid on your various body parts as punishment for not loving him. This will last for all eternity if you do not worship him. If you do worship him, you'll get to sit on the comfy beanbag and watch all the television you want.

What do you do?

Not the same. You see, in the eyes of God our sins DEMAND punishment. In reality God was VERY merciful in sending down Jesus to die for our sins. He could of just sent everyone to Hell for the sins of the original parents but He sent His only Son to die for our sins.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Dymanic
The question remains: Is God capable of evil?

I suppose He can be evil since He is omnipotent but He is not evil and does not peform evil actions.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
False analogy. Kidnappers do not control the universe or make the rules, God does.
We're not talking about ruling anything. If someone in power over you says "Do x or y will happen," it is a threat. God, kidnappers, terrorists, or Amish buggymen.

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Not the same. You see, in the eyes of God our sins DEMAND punishment. In reality God was VERY merciful in sending down Jesus to die for our sins. He could of just sent everyone to Hell for the sins of the original parents but He sent His only Son to die for our sins.

Okay, the serial killer tosses his dead kid into the basement. Will you worship him now?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by Ipecac
[B]Man, 1inC, reason has absolutely no truck with you, does it?

Why christians insist on worshipping some vain, hateful, violent, self-centered child who would create and torture others for simply not believing in him is beyond me.

You are presupposing that your judgement on morality is correct.

Here's a question. What of the billions of people who existed between 100 AD and, say 1900 AD who had no contact, absolutely none, with the bible and who never heard of Jesus? I'm talking Indians, Chinese, Japanese, American Indian, South Americans, Aleutians, Africans, and millions of others.

They too knew of Jesus. The Word states all peopl have the Holy Spirit in them. Some choose to reject it.

We KNOW that the bible didn't reach these people until centuries after Jesus supposedly laid down the law. Billions died without ever hearing the word. So did they go to heaven or hell?

How do you know God didn't visit these people and tell them of His plan of Salvation?

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I suppose He can be evil since He is omnipotent but He is not evil and does not peform evil actions.
Define evil. Show how this does not apply to your God's alleged activities.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
Okay, the serial killer tosses his dead kid into the basement. Will you worship him now?
Ow. Cherry coke through nose. Ow ow ow. :D:D:D

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
We're not talking about ruling anything. If someone in power over you says "Do x or y will happen," it is a threat. God, kidnappers, terrorists, or Amish buggymen.

God may be threatening but it is justified.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Define evil. Show how this does not apply to your God's alleged activities.

Evil = anything anti-God.

El Greco
28th September 2004, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
You cannot destroy God for He is eternal and omnipotent.

That's what he used to say, but you should see him begging for his life.

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Yes He is. You just put your hands over your ears and say ''There is no God. There is no God. There is no God. There is no God.'' However rejecting and ignoring Him won't make Him magically go away.

You have a point here. He kept pestering me with his obsessions about heaven and hell, that's why I arranged the duel. Now that he's dead I feel much better.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:57 AM
That's what he used to say, but you should see him begging for his life.

GOD CANNOT DIE!

You have a point here. He kept pestering me with his obsessions about heaven and hell, that's why I arranged the duel. Now that he's dead I feel much better.

God does not take part in duels.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:58 AM
Listen you are sinners and you need Jesus Christ to save your souls from the eternal Hellfire. Whether you realize it or not you are servants of the Beast and are in DANGER of the eternal Hellfire! Don't wait until it's too late to come to Him.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
No Gandhi was not moral. You cannot be moral without Jesus Christ.

Why not? Specifically list things Ghandi or the Dalai Lama have committed that are not moral.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
Okay, the serial killer tosses his dead kid into the basement. Will you worship him now?

No. God is the only one worthy of worship.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Evil = anything anti-God.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was afraid you were using circular logic. :rolleyes:

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Evil = anything anti-God. Is slavery, being advocated by God, good?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
Why not? Specifically list things Ghandi or the Dalai Lama have committed that are not moral.

They did not lead a life according to His Word.

Scot C. Trypal
28th September 2004, 08:01 AM
Let us quote from Homer:

Ak : If the Lord is all-powerful, why does He care whether we worship Him or not? Ak just saying.
Homer : Well, Ak, it's because God is powerful, but also insecure, like Barbara Streisand before James Brolin. Oh, he's been a rock.

Anyway, can’t believe I read another one of these. Where is my self-control? :)

One serious curiosity though: 1inChrist, if history was rewound, do you think that, because of free will, a whole different set of souls would be sent to hell fire than will in our future?

However you imagine it can happen, our choices are made “freely”, right? So I’d think, if I believed in free will, I’d not be destined to make the same choice again even with the same initial conditions for my life. So, in one lifetime I’d choose Christianity and get heaven, where I could just as easily choose to worship my neighbor’s hamster in the rewound life and get hell. It seems kind of arbitrary.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Listen you are sinners and you need Jesus Christ to save your souls from the eternal Hellfire. Whether you realize it or not you are servants of the Beast and are in DANGER of the eternal Hellfire! Don't wait until it's too late to come to Him.
Are you calling Puss a beast? He's a refined feline. I think you should apologise.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch
Is slavery, being advocated by God, good?

???????????????????????????

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
No. God is the only one worthy of worship.

d00d, he just sacrificed his own son for you! Isn't that worth something to get out of having acid poured on parts of your body?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
d00d, he just sacrificed his own son for you! Isn't that worth something to get out of having acid poured on parts of your body?

He may have killed his son but it doesn't matter. Only Jesus can save you.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
They did not lead a life according to His Word.

That answer would be not-specific. Try again.

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
He may have killed his son but it doesn't matter. Only Jesus can save you.

How do you know he is not god? How do you know that isn't the only way you might be saved, by washing yourself in his son's blood?

wollery
28th September 2004, 08:07 AM
I'll start with a pedantic grammar lesson, albeit one that has been pointed out to you before.

It isn't would of or could of, it's would've or could've, which are contractions of would have or could have, where have is the past participle of the verb to be.

Okay, now on to your thoroughly flawed logic. You say that god had to give humans free will or evil would have triumphed. But you then say that god can do anything, which means that it didn't have to do anything of the sort and could eradicate evil without expending effort.

Of course, the bible itself demonstrates that god isn't omnipotent, after all it couldn't drive out the tribes from the plains because they had iron chariots (never can remember the chapter and verse for that, someone else could tell you though, I'm sure).

Next, you're correct, the bible does warn about false idols, false prophets and the lies of satan. It does so in the old testament, which begs the question, how can you be sure that Jesus wasn't a false prophet or a messenger of satan? That, after all was why the Jews rejected him, they simply looked at the ten commandments which say "though shalt have no other gods before me". (btw I always thought that that was an odd choice of words, they kind of imply that there are other gods, why not just say "Do not worship any other gods because there are no other gods".)

Onto the assertion that all humans have a choice, I merely point out that even as late as the mid 20th century there were tribes in the Amazon jungle that had had no contact with the western world and certainly had never heard of Jesus or christianity. Were they condemned to eternal hellfire? If so then how can that possibly be just? And don't simply say that anything god does is just, think about it.

Then there are the Jews. They live by the word of the same god as you, you share a part of the bible with them. Many of them live lives that are every bit as moral and free of sin as any christian. Are they condemned to eternal hell for a minor difference in belief?

Futher to that there are also many people who, although not religious, live lives that are, by any christian standard, moral and good. Are they condemned merely for not believing in Jesus?

God created us because He wanted us to praise and love Him. Sadly, the original parents turned away from Him which damned all us to the Hellfire.Sounds pretty petulant and childlike to me. God creates humans with free will and curiosity, gives them a garden full of beauty and then puts a tree in it which they are told they must not touch. Talk about setting someone up for a fall!

Which brings me to another point, if god is all knowing then how come he was so shocked when he discovered that Adam and Eve had eaten from the fruit of the tree? Didn't he already know? If he did know, then why didn't he stop them? If he didn't know then why not?

And as for the whole question of evil, you say that god does not do anything evil, but you also maintain that he's omnipotent, the creator of everything, including evil! he created satan and he must have put evil in him and all of us too. So god does do evil, by proxy!

Sorry 1inChrist, but your arguments are among the most flawed and poorly thought out I've ever come across.

Skeptical Greg
28th September 2004, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
My idea of love is a God who creates us and gives us a chance to recieve a reward of eternal happiness in Heaven. All we have to do is follow Him and reject Satan. If this is your idea of love, then I think you are perverted.

Look at the title of your thread..

<center>" Justifying the eternal Hellfire."</center>

Perverted!

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
??????????????????????????? Sure, Laviticus 25:45-46
25:45
Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

25:46
And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.Is slavery good?

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist

Yes you must believe He is your Savior.
Mercutio asked an important question earlier, but I didn't see your response. As a former Christian, I recieved salvation when I accepted Christ years ago (with utmost sincerity). However, I was never able to really truly believe, despite years of trying to believe, pretending to believe, and claiming to believe. I could never eliminate my doubts. How exactly does one force oneself to believe something he does not believe? If belief is a matter of choice, can you demonstrate that by changing some deeply held belief?

Am I on the bus, or off the bus?

uruk
28th September 2004, 08:34 AM
If god is all powerful and can defeat all evil. Why does he continue to allow it to exist? You will no doubt say that we are the ones who allow it to exist. But isn't god more powerfull than us? God can prevent us from doing evil. Why does he continue to let us do it?
Also god created satan. Why does he keep satan around? Why did god not eliminate satan before he rebeled against him? If god is all knowing, why did god not see satan's rebellion comming?

If he knew Adam And Eve were going to fail, why did he not stop it.
Why are we being punished for the sins they did? Isn't that that like saying if your father committed a crime then you should aslo go to jail along with your decendants?

If it is good for god to kill and torture, is it good for us to kill and torture in god's name?

And if god created everything then that means god created evil also. god created satan and allows him to continue to exist then even the evil things are good because god = good.
So when I reject god and am thus evil, then I am being good because god created evil and evil is good because god = good.

And also you said that god knows that there are going to be people that are going to hell. If I am one of those people then that means god already knows I am goin to hell. If I repent that would mean that god made a mistake and god does not make mistakes, so that means that he created me to go to hell. Why would god do that to me? Oh right, god can do anything he wants. But that sucks for me. Then if I was made to go to hell, then why are you tring to convert me? aren't you going against god's will trying to covert those whom he slated to go to hell to begin with? Shame on you for committing this grievious sin against god's will. Oh wait maybe he meant for you to commit this sin and go to hell too. Welcome to the group!

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 08:35 AM
I won this debate.*










Using the criteria found in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45714)

Atlas
28th September 2004, 08:37 AM
1inC,

Some of these people may not know the distinction between Hell where Jesus took a holiday rather than lie in the tomb and the Lake of Fire (which is the second Death). Could you explain the difference so we're all on the same page.

And then without giving Dante's interpretation could you quote some scripture that shows that people actually burn forever. I don't mean that the Lake burns forever, I mean people or souls. Why do they call it the 2nd Death if you live forever in it?

I'm of the opinion that the Bible doesn't say what you say it says. But I'm not an expert. I heard Garner Ted Armstrong on the TV tell it that you're chucked into the Lake and then you are gone.

That was well over 30 years ago so things might have changed. Anyway, I've always wanted to ask an expert about it. What does the Bible really say on the subject.

Lord Emsworth
28th September 2004, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Heaven is said to be LUXURIOUS.


Don't be so greedy!

Oleron
28th September 2004, 08:40 AM
According to strict christian tradition, the earth was created around 4004BC. God sent his son JC to die for us around 30AD. It is now 2004AD (I feel like I have to point that out).

Most 'end-times' christians believe that god will wrap things up for the human race pretty soon.

So lets say judgement day is next Thursday. God shows up and starts judging. Lets also say that I was someone who was alive before the birth of christ.

I go before god and he says "You never accepted Jesus"

"Jesus who?" I say.

God slaps my ears and shouts "My son! Thats who."

"But I was dead centuries before he arrived! Thats cheating!"

"So?", says god, "It's my game and I make the rules. You're stuffed mate."

"But I was a good Jew."

"Backed the wrong horse there, I'm afraid!". God laughs and pulls the trapdoor lever. He clearly enjoys his job.

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Oleron
Most 'end-times' christians believe that god will wrap things up for the human race pretty soon.Not that it will matter for the vast majority of us. From Revolations:14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.So unless you're one of the 144,000 virgin men who are going to be saved, it's the lake of fire for you.

I'm married, so I'm screwed. pun intended

Lord Emsworth
28th September 2004, 08:48 AM
And what is "God" anyway? I mean what should I believe in?

:con2:

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch
I won this debate.*










Using the criteria found in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45714)
Sorry, you didn't win. You forgot to use links and instead made your own arguments. That disqualifies you.

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch

So unless you're one of the 144,000 virgin men who are going to be saved, it's the lake of fire for you.
There it is.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world..." - Ephesians 1:5

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Sorry, you didn't win. You forgot to use links and instead made your own arguments. That disqualifies you. what? no.... see, I.... that is....

Wait, that's logic!!!! You're Satan in disguise. I refuse to listen to anything you say. I won this debate.

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Sorry, you didn't win. You forgot to use links and instead made your own arguments. That disqualifies you.

Also there's been just too much arguing going on. Let the thread die for a few months then come back to it and claim victory.

We need some sort of Dear 1inChrist thread where we can ask him for advice.

:cs:

T'ai Chi
28th September 2004, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
People always ask ''If God is loving, why does He send people to tell knowing before He created them that their eternal home would be the Lake of Fire?''

Simple. Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him. Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God!


If God created everything as claimed, he created evil too. If evil can beat God, that means God is not all powerful as claimed.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch
what? no.... see, I.... that is....

Wait, that's logic!!!! You're Satan in disguise. I refuse to listen to anything you say. I won this debate.
I'm only honouring this drivel with a response to prevent you from winning this debate as well. Loser. :D

sackett
28th September 2004, 09:07 AM
Perhaps .001inChrist doesn't quite know whether he's a troll or not. His simple-minded theology suggests that he's just cruising for attention, but his persistence and his earnest tone make him sound like an honest-to-pete old time religionist. I dunno; tough call.

But you can see where he's coming from: the Bronze Age, when supernatural beings damn well -were- cruel, capricious, childish, and vindictive. Consolidating your gods into one obviously didn't help, because bad things went right on happening: the Assyrians came down like the wolf on the fold, crops failed, locusts ate up the land, disease laid waste kine and kindred. Old Testament man had no reason to suppose that Yehuowau was anything but an illogical savage, and that's the way He was written into that Holy Word that .001inChrist keeps citing.

I'm grateful to the poor fellow for illustrating a point I like to make, viz., that monotheism is a tough theological stance to maintain, probably because it's so unsatisfying. .001inChrist introduces a powerful God of Evil, Satan, to account for all the stuff his God of Good really shouldn't be doing; in other words, .001inChrist is a de-facto dualist, like many another Christian, and not all of them fans of hell fire. (Hell is a first-rate stick for whipping converts into church, and it's been borrowed by Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and, I think, Cargo Cultists. It seems to have worked fine on.001inChrist; he gets a thrill out of just talking about it.)

That's another point: 1 in C's honest about the appeal of religion. It's emotional, not logical; it stirs the heady passions, not the boring old intellect; it's primitive art, not civilized science; it tramples on the yes-but-we-must-define-your-terms timidity of the theologians; it sees a world of blood and pain and it wants an ETERNITY of blood and pain! And you milk and water doubters can get aboard or get trampled!

I have no doubt that 1 in Cursed is enjoying his religionism.

DaveW
28th September 2004, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
It's a CHOICE you must make.

A choice at gunpoint (ie, Hell) is not a choice, it's coercion.

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by DaveW
A choice at gunpoint (ie, Hell) is not a choice, it's coercion.

Not if it's done with Love.

:cs:

DaveW
28th September 2004, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
Okay, the serial killer tosses his dead kid into the basement. Will you worship him now?

ROFLMAO!

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 09:29 AM
I will be back to answer EVERY post.

God bless,
1inChrist

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I will be back to answer EVERY post.

God bless,
1inChrist Good, becaue I'm really interested in finding out whether or not slavery is evil, given that God explains the proper method of obtaining and keeping slaves.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I will be back to answer EVERY post.

God bless,
1inChrist
EVERY post?

OK, if God leaves Birmingham, Alabama at 6:15pm on a bus travelling 62mph heading NNE, and Satan leaves Little Rock, Arkansas os a skateboard, travelling 10mph heading S, who has the cooler watch? Justify your answer.

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 09:39 AM
Dear 1inChrist,

I have seizures sometimes. Should I see an exorcist?

Thanks,
Gastric ReFlux

Atlas
28th September 2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by sackett
Perhaps .001inChrist doesn't quite know whether he's a troll or not. His simple-minded theology suggests that he's just cruising for attention, but his persistence and his earnest tone make him sound like an honest-to-pete old time religionist. I dunno; tough call.

But you can see where he's coming from: the Bronze Age, when supernatural beings damn well -were- cruel, capricious, childish, and vindictive. Consolidating your gods into one obviously didn't help, because bad things went right on happening: the Assyrians came down like the wolf on the fold, crops failed, locusts ate up the land, disease laid waste kine and kindred. Old Testament man had no reason to suppose that Yehuowau was anything but an illogical savage, and that's the way He was written into that Holy Word that .001inChrist keeps citing.

I'm grateful to the poor fellow for illustrating a point I like to make, viz., that monotheism is a tough theological stance to maintain, probably because it's so unsatisfying. .001inChrist introduces a powerful God of Evil, Satan, to account for all the stuff his God of Good really shouldn't be doing; in other words, .001inChrist is a de-facto dualist, like many another Christian, and not all of them fans of hell fire. (Hell is a first-rate stick for whipping converts into church, and it's been borrowed by Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and, I think, Cargo Cultists. It seems to have worked fine on.001inChrist; he gets a thrill out of just talking about it.)

That's another point: 1 in C's honest about the appeal of religion. It's emotional, not logical; it stirs the heady passions, not the boring old intellect; it's primitive art, not civilized science; it tramples on the yes-but-we-must-define-your-terms timidity of the theologians; it sees a world of blood and pain and it wants an ETERNITY of blood and pain! And you milk and water doubters can get aboard or get trampled!

I have no doubt that 1 in Cursed is enjoying his religionism. I liked this Sackett. I'd like to add that when Abraham invented his God he didn't think to invent an afterlife. For Abraham, God was the God of the living. Your reward was blessings here on Earth and also the grave when you died.

Someone else pointed out in some thread awhile back that no one in the old testament ever stood by a grave and said, I'll see you when my time comes - or any words to that effect.

By the time of Jesus the afterlife was still murky. I think Jesus used several mythic symbols like, the Bosom of Abraham, and to the good theif - This day you shall be with me in Paradise, and I think heaven was referred to in a question to Jesus about which brother who took the same woman in marriage gets her in heaven?

I think translations of hell are from 3 distinct concepts as well. Gehenna - the garbage dump outside the city that was constantly aflame, as well as sheol and hades.

Atlas
28th September 2004, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch
Good, becaue I'm really interested in finding out whether or not slavery is evil, given that God explains the proper method of obtaining and keeping slaves. You're thinking about going Christian aren't you? If you get the answer you're looking for... you're gonna leave us, aren't ya. Remember not to beat them everyday unless, of course, they won't obey.

Wait... I'm thinking of the religious marriage. (http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/13336034?source=Reuters)

sackett
28th September 2004, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Atlas
[B]I liked this Sackett. . . ./B]

Thankee kindly, brother. Although it's been observed of me that I'm at my best when knocking down some poor little kid's playhouse, a habit I developed as a fourth-grader when they let the second-graders out for recess.

There's also a northern element to Hell. The Scandinavians appear to have had a Hel where condemned souls suffered eternal cold. (Valhalla kept a nice warm fire going.) Dante used the idea of eternal freezing for one of the circles of his Inferno.

Dante! You couldn't ask for a better -- or lengthier -- illustration of the sick religious mind! TinChrist isn't anywhere near being in that league!

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by sackett

I'm grateful to the poor fellow for illustrating a point I like to make, viz., that monotheism is a tough theological stance to maintain, probably because it's so unsatisfying
I have no doubt that 1 in Cursed is enjoying his religionismI feel obliged to point out a contradiction there.

Ipecac
28th September 2004, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
You are presupposing that your judgement on morality is correct.

They too knew of Jesus. The Word states all peopl have the Holy Spirit in them. Some choose to reject it.

How do you know God didn't visit these people and tell them of His plan of Salvation?

A human being who treated his children as "god" treats his children (according to your beliefs) would be put in jail for life. Our worst serial killers don't behave as badly as your description of "god". If god doesn't even measure up to human morals, then he is not worthy of worship. You cannot just exempt him from moral standards.

Do you have any evidence that ALL PEOPLE have had access to Jesus and god? You'd think some of these billions of people would have written it down. Or told someone.

sackett
28th September 2004, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Dymanic
I feel obliged to point out a contradiction there.

My point is that 1 in C is not a monotheist at all, he's a dualist at the least. He might object that his Satan is a demon, not a deity, but that distinction cuts little or no ice in descriptive terms. He also appears to recognize an indeterminate number of lesser hants 'n sperrits, i.e., Satan's demons. Betcha he believes in angels too; any takers?

In short, our old pal Polly Theism has come around yet again to beguile the believers. And boy do they eat that stuff up.

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by sackett

My point is that 1 in C is not a monotheist at all, he's a dualist at the leastYou seem to be using 'dualism' here to refer to belief in more than one deity (specifically, two). The assumption I usually make is the the word refers to mind versus matter.

Beerina
28th September 2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Don't play that typical sceptical nonsense with me. You know very well which God I am talking about. I am talking about the one True God who's Word is contained in the Holy Bible. What other God condemns people to an eternal Hellfire? Stop trying to compare the one True God with those pagan idols.


So at the end days, God will resurrect a man, giving him an indestructable body, then immediately heave him into a lake of molten lava where he will live in indescribable agony for all eternity -- because he took a cock up the ass?

This is a kind God?!?!?!

Why would someone worship such a piece of ******

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 11:28 AM
sackett, the contradiction I was referring to is from comparing these two statements:

monotheism is a tough theological stance to maintain, probably because it's so unsatisfying

I have no doubt that 1 in Cursed is enjoying his religionism

In attempting to understand a proselytizing fundamentalist, I can only refer to my own experiences as a former Christian. I feel that I have a better understanding of my own motivations in retrospect than I did at the time, and I cannot help but assume that these insights are a helpful guide to understanding others. This method is admittedly prone to error. An unavoidable assumption is that my experience was not particularly unique, and the results may also be affected by psychological projection. Despite these drawbacks, I not only see no alternative, but I don't see any way to stop myself from doing this. Having aired that disclaimer:

The energy and determination 1inChrist demonstrates in attempting to defend his position suggest a level of emotional commitment beyond what is offerred by one deserving to be labeled 'troll'. He does not appear to be engaging in these discussions for the entertainment value. The feeling I get is one of desperation, and it is a desperation I think I understand. Being a fundamentalist Christian isn't all sweetness and light. It is torment. The contradictions are too numerous and too glaring to be ignored, yet doubt must not be expressed -- it must not even be felt. Keeping that joyous smile on your face gets to be real work after a while. Dedicating your life to trying to think and feel the way the book (the pastor, the group) says you should think and feel is practically a lake of fire in itself. Personally, I felt a lot better once I quit trying to play that game and decided to be honest with myself about what I feel and what I believe.

I don't think 1inChrist is enjoying his religionism. I think he was driven here by the torment of his own doubt. It may be that none of us will ask him questions he has not asked himself, and immediately felt guilty for asking. It is not our doubts that bother him, it is his own.

Of course, that's just one guess. There is another aspect to fundamentalism, which is its utility as a weapon. If intimidation is what you're about, surprisingly good results can be had by bopping your subjects over the head with a nice, thick book.

EdipisReks
28th September 2004, 11:36 AM
something tells me that when 1inchrist dies, Xipe Totec is going to want to have a long, long, long, painful conversation with him.

Dragonrock
28th September 2004, 11:41 AM
A god who says that Anne Frank is deserving of the same eternal punishment as Hitler is not one who deserves my praise. It seems to me that the only sin that 99.44%inChrist's god pays attention to is whether or not you kiss his a*s. In fact, if what 69inChrist says is true; it's possible that during his last breath Hitler asked Jesus to become his personal savior and is now spending eternity with his lips permanently afixed to Jehovah's butt while Anne Frank, sweet innocent jew that she was, is burning in hell fire for not saying the magic words.

Tony
28th September 2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
It's a CHOICE you must make.

No it's not. It's a threat and it shows how much of a pussy your god really is. Cowards threaten, real leaders inspire devotion. Someone who says, "Love me, worship me and follow me on my terms or face eternal torture by my hand" is a piece of **** not worthy of worship, respect or regard.

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Dragonrock
...Hitler...and thus we have reached the upper bound of the thead, via Godwin's Law (http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html). Pity, I was hoping for an explination for God's approval of slavery (thus, making slavery "good").

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 11:55 AM
2 hours and 20 minutes since your last post, Upchurch? I so won.

Piscivore
28th September 2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by EdipisReks
something tells me that when 1inchrist dies, Xipe Totec is going to want to have a long, long, long, painful conversation with him.

In his "end"? :D

Piscivore
28th September 2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Tony
No it's not. It's a threat and it shows how much of a pussy your god really is. Cowards threaten, real leaders inspire devotion. Someone who says, "Love me, worship me and follow me on my terms or face eternal torture by my hand" is a piece of s**t not worthy of worship, respect or regard.

In which case we should all worship Jareth (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091369/):
I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave.

Beerina
28th September 2004, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Upchurch
and thus we have reached the upper bound of the thead, via Godwin's Law (http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html). Pity, I was hoping for an explination for God's approval of slavery (thus, making slavery "good").

Then there's that comedy calendar page that has pictures and pithy captions. One such is a picture of a sinking ship with the caption, "It's possible your purpose in life is to serve as a lesson to others."

I'm waiting for why it's "good" for God to create a badly deformed child who will have a difficult, painful life, just to give someone else an opportunity to care for them.

Not so fast! There's more.

And the ultimate result for the good person who cares for them: being sent to live in some perfect heaven, where "caring for people skill" is perfectly useless.

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
2 hours and 20 minutes since your last post, Upchurch? I so won. You win this time, wee bull. (http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/bull.htm)

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Upchurch
You win this time, wee bull. (http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/bull.htm)
:D:D:D That should not have been nearly as funny as it was. I must need sleep.

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
:D:D:D That should not have been nearly as funny as it was. I must need sleep.

What you need is Jesus. Only Jesus can save you from the Eternal Hellfire. Accept Jesus now and he'll cure you of your sleepyness.

Dragonrock
28th September 2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Upchurch
and thus we have reached the upper bound of the thead, via Godwin's Law (http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html). Pity, I was hoping for an explination for God's approval of slavery (thus, making slavery "good").

I thought that the problem was comparing the opposing side to Hitler, not just mentioning them. In my post I was looking for moral opposites who were in some way related. I did not equate 1inChrist or his god to Hitler.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 12:20 PM
If you need moral opposites in the future, might I suggest Ashley, wholesome paragon of light and virtue, and Mary Kate, sultry temptress of the vile and unrepentant?

edited for the post was 2 vile...Puss: Bad pun, miller boy, I rebuke thee!

Skeptical Greg
28th September 2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
If you need moral opposites in the future, might I suggest Ashley, wholesome paragon of light and virtue, and Mary Kate, vile temptress of the vile and unrepentant?

Amusing, but doesn't really apply to the " Evil murderer is reunited with victim in heaven " meme.

I like to go with Andrea Yates and her 5 children.. Do you think they will be happy to see mom?

http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/special/01/drownings/index2001.html

Dragonrock
28th September 2004, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
If you need moral opposites in the future, might I suggest Ashley, wholesome paragon of light and virtue, and Mary Kate, vile temptress of the vile and unrepentant?

Good choice, but next time I'm gonna go with Bert and Ernie.

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Dragonrock
I thought that the problem was comparing the opposing side to Hitler, not just mentioning them. In my post I was looking for moral opposites who were in some way related. I did not equate 1inChrist or his god to Hitler. I thought any mention of Hitler would do, but after reviewing the link I posted above, it does seem to require a "comparison" (although it doesn't necessarily have to be of one's opponent).

I blame the head cold and the Dayquil. and Hitler. Hitler and Dayquil made me do it.

Time for Upchurch to take a nap.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Diogenes
Amusing, but doesn't really apply to the " Evil murderer is reunited with victim in heaven " meme.

I like to go with Andrea Yates and her 5 children.. Do you think they will be happy to see mom?

http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/special/01/drownings/index2001.html
Good choice, and no, I doubt they will. I hope if there is a god, those kids grilled him on that whole "honour thy father and thy mother" bit.

As an aside, I like the way I repeated "vile" up there...I must have used up my adjectives for the day. Sheesh.

Skeptical Greg
28th September 2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Good choice, and no, I doubt they will. I hope if there is a god, those kids grilled him on that whole "honour thy father and thy mother" bit.

As an aside, I like the way I repeated "vile" up there...I must have used up my adjectives for the day. Sheesh.

I think if you replace the first ' vile ' with ' sultry ', we can let you go.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Diogenes
I think if you replace the first ' vile ' with ' sultry ', we can let you go.
Done, thanks.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Upchurch


I blame the head cold and the Dayquil. and Hitler. Hitler and Dayquil made me do it.

Time for Upchurch to take a nap.

Dayquil and Hitler and Satan. You forgot to add Satan in there. Jeez, you really do need a nap.

Yaotl
28th September 2004, 01:09 PM
1inChrist's god seems scarily similar to the god in the Preacher comics. Nice and all when you're grovelling, but when you question anything, he kills your girlfriend.

Dragonrock
28th September 2004, 01:10 PM
I've decided to go with the Andrea Yates/Yates children idea. Here is the updated version and please ignore the other post.

A god who says that the Yates children are deserving of the same eternal punishment as their mother, Andrea, is not one who deserves my praise. It seems to me that the only sin that 99.44%inChrist's god pays attention to is whether or not you kiss his a*s. In fact, if what 69inChrist says is true; it's possible that at some point Andrea can ask Jesus to become her personal savior and would spend eternity with her lips permanently afixed to Jehovah's butt while her children, sweet innocent but perhaps at that time not saved, are burning in hell fire for not saying the magic words.

Better?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
That answer would be not-specific. Try again.

It answers it perfect. One is not moral without Christ.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by jzs


If God created everything as claimed, he created evil too. If evil can beat God, that means God is not all powerful as claimed. [/B]

Evil cannot beat God that's why He created us.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
How do you know he is not god? How do you know that isn't the only way you might be saved, by washing yourself in his son's blood?

He is not God because the only God is the God who's Word is found in the Holy Bible.

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Evil cannot beat God that's why He created us.

So he can beat on us and call us evil? Sweet.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
It answers it perfect. One is not moral without Christ.

No, it doesn't. What exactly did they do that was not moral that proves that without Christ one cannot be moral? Not a difficult question.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by DaveW
A choice at gunpoint (ie, Hell) is not a choice, it's coercion.

It's a choice. God lays down the law. Choose Him or go to Hell.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Evil cannot beat God that's why He created us.
So, since evil couldn't beat God, God created us to beat Him? So He's not a petulant child, just a masochist? Does he prefer stinging nettles? Riding crops?

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
He is not God because the only God is the God who's Word is found in the Holy Bible.

How do you know he's not the one who wrote the Bible? What do you have to lose by believing in the serial killer? If you do, you go free and sit on the beanbag. If you don't, he keeps pouring acid on you when he pleases.

Invocation of Pascal's Wager, I win.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Dymanic
Mercutio asked an important question earlier, but I didn't see your response. As a former Christian, I recieved salvation when I accepted Christ years ago (with utmost sincerity). However, I was never able to really truly believe, despite years of trying to believe, pretending to believe, and claiming to believe. I could never eliminate my doubts. How exactly does one force oneself to believe something he does not believe? If belief is a matter of choice, can you demonstrate that by changing some deeply held belief?

Am I on the bus, or off the bus?

Simple. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
It's a choice. God lays down the law. Choose Him or go to Hell.
This is what (Puss: you're about to repeat yourself, dear boy) kidnappers do. Choose to pay the ransom or (Puss: just a broken record) have your kid offed.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Simple. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you.
Whoa, a masochist and a flasher? I'm starting to think this God chap might not be half-bad after all.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by uruk
If god is all powerful and can defeat all evil. Why does he continue to allow it to exist? You will no doubt say that we are the ones who allow it to exist. But isn't god more powerfull than us? God can prevent us from doing evil. Why does he continue to let us do it?
Also god created satan. Why does he keep satan around? Why did god not eliminate satan before he rebeled against him? If god is all knowing, why did god not see satan's rebellion comming?

God gave us free will. To answer your second question see my first post on why God created us knowing about the Fall of Man.

If he knew Adam And Eve were going to fail, why did he not stop it.

Read original post.

Why are we being punished for the sins they did? Isn't that that like saying if your father committed a crime then you should aslo go to jail along with your decendants?

That's the way it is and if you don't like it TOUGH! You don't write the rules, God does.

If it is good for god to kill and torture, is it good for us to kill and torture in god's name?

God does not kill or torture anyone except if they have it coming due to consequences of their actions.

And if god created everything then that means god created evil also. god created satan and allows him to continue to exist then even the evil things are good because god = good.
So when I reject god and am thus evil, then I am being good because god created evil and evil is good because god = good.

Huh!?

And also you said that god knows that there are going to be people that are going to hell. If I am one of those people then that means god already knows I am goin to hell. If I repent that would mean that god made a mistake and god does not make mistakes, so that means that he created me to go to hell. Why would god do that to me? Oh right, god can do anything he wants. But that sucks for me. Then if I was made to go to hell, then why are you tring to convert me? aren't you going against god's will trying to covert those whom he slated to go to hell to begin with? Shame on you for committing this grievious sin against god's will. Oh wait maybe he meant for you to commit this sin and go to hell too. Welcome to the group!

God knows your eternal fate. Will you go to Heaven? Will you be consumed by the flames of the Hellfire? That choice is up to you.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Diogenes
If this is your idea of love, then I think you are perverted.

Look at the title of your thread..

<center>" Justifying the eternal Hellfire."</center>

Perverted!

I am not perverted. I am a servant of the Lord spreading the Glorious news of His Sacrifice.

TragicMonkey
28th September 2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I am not perverted. I am a servant of the Lord spreading the Glorious news of His Sacrifice.

I'm sure God appreciates it: She seems to need good press. I wonder why, being omnipotent and all...

daenku32
28th September 2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
It answers it perfect. One is not moral without Christ.

In that case Moral doesn't equate Good.


If Bible is 'Good', then I want to be bad.

Lord Emsworth
28th September 2004, 01:36 PM
:cs:


(I just wanted to see this smilie again)

Ipecac
28th September 2004, 01:38 PM
When I was a christian, I looked forward to having all the mysteries of the universe revealed to me when I died. What happened to the Jamestown colony, where is Jimmy Hoffa buried, who killed JonBenet, etc. One of the things I actually thought about was how it would be interesting to know what the biggest practical joke/con job/lie of all time was.

Turns out, I know the answer. The biggest practical joke in human history was religion. And Christianity is the biggest lie of them all. Billions of humans tricked into living their lives according to a fairy tale. And a fairly harmful one at that.

Timble
28th September 2004, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I am not perverted. I am a servant of the Lord spreading the Glorious news of His Sacrifice.

How do we know?

It says in the Bible:


Matthew 7:15-23,

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Could this be you?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:39 PM
You are all foolish in the eyes of the Lord. A fool says in his heart there is no God.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:40 PM
Could this be you?

No. I am a True Christian. God speaks to me directly and I am a servant to Him.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
You are all foolish in the eyes of the Lord. A fool says in his heart there is no God.
I say it in my liver, actually. My heart's Hindu. Go figure. Anyway, you were making excellent progress answering EVERY post. Please go on.

Ipecac
28th September 2004, 01:42 PM
Hey 1inC, you said you would respond to ALL posts. You haven't addressed my follow up post about those billions who died not knowing god. So did you lie?

Timble
28th September 2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
No. I am a True Christian. God speaks to me directly and I am a servant to Him.


Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? [there is] more hope of a fool than of him.

Proverbs 26:3-16

Lord Emsworth
28th September 2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
You are all foolish in the eyes of the Lord. A fool says in his heart there is no God.



A fool say it in his heart, and a clever person aloud.

Scot C. Trypal
28th September 2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
You are all foolish in the eyes of the Lord. A fool says in his heart there is no God.

“whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” Jesus, 30 AD ;)

I can see you're skipping posts, understandably, but…

I am genuinely curious about how you think freewill would work in a rewound history. If my will is free, then, with the same starting point and influences, could I have made the choice to be Christian in one life and not in the other? Would a different group of people go to hell and heaven if time were started over? The only other option I can see is that will is not “free”, but I don’t really even understand what freewill would be.

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by 1inchrist

Simple. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you.You can't honestly suppose I didn't try that. Besides, it doesn't answer my question. It was a simple question: On the bus, or off the bus?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Ipecac
Hey 1inC, you said you would respond to ALL posts. You haven't addressed my follow up post about those billions who died not knowing god. So did you lie?

The Holy Word states that all know of God through experiencing the Holy Ghost. So just because people haven't heard of Christ through other people doesn't mean they haven't heard of Christ.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Dymanic
You can't honestly suppose I didn't try that. Besides, it doesn't answer my question. It was a simple question: On the bus, or off the bus?

What do you mean are you off or on the bus?

Skeptical Greg
28th September 2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
No. I am a True Christian. God speaks to me directly and I am a servant to Him.

Funny.. This woman says the same thing..

Jury Weighs Case of Mom Who Killed 2 Sons (http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/photos/8343158.htm?1c)

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Scot C. Trypal
“whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” Jesus, 30 AD ;)

I can see you're skipping posts, understandably, but…

I am genuinely curious about how you think freewill would work in a rewound history. If my will is free, then, with the same starting point and influences, could I have made the choice to be Christian in one life and not in the other? Would a different group of people go to hell and heaven if time were started over? The only other option I can see is that will is not “free”, but I don’t really even understand what freewill would be.

First off I did not call you a fool I said you are a fool in the Lord's eyes.

Second, I don't know it's a good question. Ask Him when you meet Him in the End.

AWPrime
28th September 2004, 01:55 PM
The only logical reason for hell, if it exist.


God(father): You obey me or I will sent you to my friend mr. Satan, capice?

;)

control_zape
28th September 2004, 01:56 PM
Satan is real. God is real. Humans are real

... and you are amusing...

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Diogenes
Funny.. This woman says the same thing..

Jury Weighs Case of Mom Who Killed 2 Sons (http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/photos/8343158.htm?1c)
Well, obviously God never tells people to do bad things, so she's lying.

God prefers to handle the dirty deeds personally.

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist

What do you mean are you off or on the bus?
I accepted Christ, but was unable to believe. Am I saved, or not?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Diogenes
Funny.. This woman says the same thing..

Jury Weighs Case of Mom Who Killed 2 Sons (http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/photos/8343158.htm?1c)

I can't read the link unless I sign up. Anyway is this the story of the woman killing her two sons after they accepted Christ as their Savior?

Timble
28th September 2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
The Holy Word states that all know of God through experiencing the Holy Ghost. So just because people haven't heard of Christ through other people doesn't mean they haven't heard of Christ.

So mightn't they know him as Baldur, or Osiris or Dionysis for example?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Dymanic
I accepted Christ, but was unable to believe. Am I saved, or not?

Do you live a life according to His Word?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Timble
So mightn't they know him as Baldur, or Osiris or Dionysis for example?

No those are FALSE idols.

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist

Do you live a life according to His Word?
What could that possible have to do with it? Is salvation something one earns?

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 02:01 PM
So, might they know Him as a real idol? You know, like Justin Guarini or William Hung?

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Dymanic
What could that possible have to do with it? Is salvation something one earns?

If you accept Him as your Savior and follow His commands you will be Saved. That's Faith.

Lord Emsworth
28th September 2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
No. I am a True Christian. God speaks to me directly and I am a servant to Him.



How do you know it is God?

And what is "God?"

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
So, might they know Him as a real idol? You know, like Justin Guarini or William Hung?

No those are pop icons.

Ipecac
28th September 2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
The Holy Word states that all know of God through experiencing the Holy Ghost. So just because people haven't heard of Christ through other people doesn't mean they haven't heard of Christ.

Yeah, right. That's why they were pretty much uniformly of whatever religion happened to be popular in their region of the world. That's why christianity didn't spontaneously spring up around the world.

It's a wonder you don't fall down more.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Lord Emsworth
How do you know it is God?

And what is "God?"



Because when I call on Jesus's name the voice keeps talking. What is God? God is the Creator of the universe.

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Because when I call on Jesus's name the voice keeps talking. What is God? God is the Creator of the universe.

So...you are hearing voices?

Scot C. Trypal
28th September 2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
First off I did not call you a fool I said you are a fool in the Lord's eyes.

Ah, you speak for God but disagree with Him on this point? Otherwise, it did sound like you were calling people fools.

Still, no big harm in that, unless you think that Jesus quote is applicable.

Second, I don't know it's a good question. Ask Him when you meet Him in the End.

[letdown sigh]

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 02:07 PM
So you do earn salvation, by having faith? That doesn't seem consistent with these passages:

And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed -Acts 13:48

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified -Romans 8:29-30

He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. -Ephesians 1:4-5

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. -2 Timothy 1:9

Where did you get the idea that it was a choice? The bible says whether one is saved is predestined. Obviously, I simply wasn't chosen.

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
So...you are hearing voices?

I hear the thundering voice of the Lord.

Anders
28th September 2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
If you accept Him as your Savior and follow His commands you will be Saved. That's Faith.
Saved from what? I don't follow his or any others command! In fact I try to blasphemy as often as I can, and I still haven’t experienced any wrath from Yaweh or Ganesha (I kinda like Ganesha, he has a cute trunk). Ah, I gonna be punish in hell that’s it. But than again, which hell? As a born protestant, for me there is no hell. But if I were born a catholic, I would have to go through the purgatory, right?

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I hear the thundering voice of the Lord.


:D

Skeptical Greg
28th September 2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I can't read the link unless I sign up. Anyway is this the story of the woman killing her two sons after they accepted Christ as their Savior?

No. It's about a woman who was told by Jesus to kill her sons.

She was just as sure as you are...

Lord Emsworth
28th September 2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Because when I call on Jesus's name the voice keeps talking. What is God? God is the Creator of the universe.


A voice? Very interesting ... But how do you know it is Jesus God?

And what is the Creator of the universe? I mean, you have to have something more fleshy that you believe in than those platitudes.

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Because when I call on Jesus's name the voice keeps talking. What is God? God is the Creator of the universe.
There's nothing wrong with having an imaginary friend. Hell, I've got Puss. (Puss: Heh, the poor boy still thinks I'm the imaginary one.) Trying to convince other people your IF is real is not likely to secure your place among the sane, however.

Anders
28th September 2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I hear the thundering voice of the Lord.
Nope, it's not the Lord, nor the King. Well, the King of Sweden lives just 10 min from where I'm living, but I still can't hear his voice. Well sometimes, when he yells at his daughters (of one is the crow princess) you can sometimes hear him......

1inChrist
28th September 2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Dymanic
So you do earn salvation, by having faith? That doesn't seem consistent with these passages:

And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed -Acts 13:48

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified -Romans 8:29-30

He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. - Ephesians 1:4-5


Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. -2 Timothy 1:9

Where did you get the idea that it was a choice? The bible says whether one is saved is predestined. Obviously, I simply wasn't chosen.

I don't know the answer to this question.........let me get back to you.

Dymanic
28th September 2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist

I don't know the answer to this question.........let me get back to you.An excellent response. Take as much time as you need.

Ossai
28th September 2004, 02:17 PM
Not enough time to catch up on the entire thread right now so I’ll get what I can.

1inChrist
Don't play that typical sceptical nonsense with me. You know very well which God I am talking about. I am talking about the one True God who's Word is contained in the Holy Bible. What other God condemns people to an eternal Hellfire? Stop trying to compare the one True God with those pagan idols. There are 34,000 different sects of Christianity. My question is still valid, which version of god?

They all know Him. They just choose to reject Him. How can you not know Him? I have been informing you all of the Truth of Christ. You have just chosen to reject this Truth. What of the millions that lived before Jr was even born. What of the millions living on the other side of the world when Jr was alive and kicking? What of the millions that never heard of Christ after his death?

Ossai

Lisa Simpson
28th September 2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Anders
Nope, it's not the Lord, nor the King. Well, the King of Sweden lives just 10 min from where I'm living, but I still can't hear his voice. Well sometimes, when he yells at his daughters (of one is the crow princess) you can sometimes hear him......

I'm watching The Empire Strikes Back in SurroundSound, so the thundering voice I hear is Darth Vader. And really, there are a lot of similarities between god and Darth. Both require blind obedience, get rather testy when the obedience is not met and both have their roots in fiction.

DaveW
28th September 2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
It's a choice. God lays down the law. Choose Him or go to Hell.

Right. I think we have a broken record now.

DaveW
28th September 2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
God knows your eternal fate. Will you go to Heaven? Will you be consumed by the flames of the Hellfire? That choice is up to you.

If he knows our eternal fate, how is the choice up to us? :confused:

Marquis de Carabas
28th September 2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by DaveW
If he knows our eternal fate, how is the choice up to us? :confused:
Whoa, hold up. Looks like you're trying to use logic, tool of Satan.

Cosmo
28th September 2004, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by 3.14159inChrist
Because when I call on Jesus's name the voice keeps talking.

You know, some people rightly classify that as insanity.

jan
28th September 2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Animals do not have souls.
Oh, that's going to be a problem. No Chee-tos, no Puss, no Marquis. Give God my regards.
Originally posted by Bill Watterson

<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Calvin</span>: Do you think Tigers go to the same heaven that people go to? I mean, in heaven, everyone is supposed to be happy, right? But people wouldn't be happy if they were always being in danger of being eaten by tigers! On the other hand, heaven wouldn't be very nice without tigers, either. I wouldn't be happy if there weren't any tigers. I'd miss them. Maybe tigers just don't eat people in heaven.

<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Hobbes</span>: But then we wouldn't be happy.

Upchurch
28th September 2004, 03:21 PM
Before my question gets too lost in the fray:

In Leviticus (quoted a few pages back), God lays down the proper method for obtaining and keeping slaves. 1inChrist, is slavery good or evil?

jan
28th September 2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why reject Him and the Truth found in His Word? Yes the Lake of fire is a terrible place of horror, torture and pain but He gives us a chance to escape.

What if I prefer Nothingness? Since heaven doesn't have cats of any size, it doesn't sound like a nice place, and hell sounds uncomfortable too. Is there any road I can take to reach nonexistence?

And what if I would prefer to be never been born?

jan
28th September 2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
Evil = anything anti-God.

Position of the Evil Hateful Atheists:

Deliberately killing little children is always evil.


Position of the Wonderful Good Christs:

Whether killing little children is evil or not completely depends on the opinion of God. If God tells us that it is a good thing, it is a good thing. If he tells us that it is an evil thing, it is an evil thing. Abraham didn't hesitate.


(Apologies to those Christs not sharing 1inChrist's views if they feel offended by this description of the Christian position; I guess it means they are not true "Wonderful Good Christs")

Gastric ReFlux
28th September 2004, 04:00 PM
Can we call this thread a

http://www.ticon.net/~beloiths/Newsletter/Images/photoessay/trainwreck.jpg

yet?

Whyatica
28th September 2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
I'm watching The Empire Strikes Back in SurroundSound, so the thundering voice I hear is Darth Vader. And really, there are a lot of similarities between god and Darth. Both require blind obedience, get rather testy when the obedience is not met and both have their roots in fiction.
And they both tend to punish the wrong people :D

Atlas
28th September 2004, 05:39 PM
Boy, mention Garner Ted Armstrong around here and it's like, "Forget You!" Yah, he wasn't perfect. A little more frisky than Swaggart and Jim Baker (ok combined).
But he's dead. Doesn't that help any? 1inC, I know these guys are pestering you but the thread is about eternal hellfire. I've also heard that the Bible never uses the term immortal soul. Like it is a reward that God gives the good but it's more of a tradition to make the unrewarded burn forever. What I'm getting at is that there may be many things about Chrstianity that you may believe that are more traditional interpretations rather than factual statements in the Bible. I may be off base but if you get a chance I'd like a response to my earlier post (I have not researched it myself so perhaps you may disabuse me of these long held suspicions.)....
<iframe width="100%" height="400" src="http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&action=showpost&postid=1870615455"></iframe>

jaderook01
28th September 2004, 06:59 PM
1inChrist,

Simple. Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him. Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God! If God decides not to do something because of evil that means God has been defeated by evil and that cannot happen. He HAD to create us or evil would of defeated God.

In creating people that He knew would reject him, didn't God knowingly bring sin into the world? It would seem that He created evil and consigned a segment of humanity to damnation. I don't understand why a loving God would do such a thing.

Hazelip
28th September 2004, 07:02 PM
Atlas, the only reference to being consumed by fire is by god. Dt.9:3
Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

1inC. Please provide evidence of this magical skydaddy. If not, my invisible unicorn and I will be having a bourbon and eating dragon steaks.

Ratman_tf
28th September 2004, 09:28 PM
This thread reeks of troll.

spejic
28th September 2004, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
I hear the thundering voice of the Lord. Mr. 1inChrist, this is an unique and amazing opportunity to do something that has never been done before - convert atheists on this forum to Christianity. And it can be done because you have an actual connection to God. As God testifies through signs and wonders (Heb 2:4), it should be no problem for you to ask God for answers to questions that he would know easily, but that you could not know. You know, something like the location of Bin Laden, or tomorrow's lottery numbers, or how to get managed Direct3D indexed primitives working in a game I am working on. God knows exactly what it would take to get us to convert, and he can do it without effort.

RamblingOnwards
29th September 2004, 02:42 AM
I have a question (well, a series of questions, actually):

If you and five friends commit an offense and get caught, would you agree that you all deserve punishment?

Now, suppose that because your parents are famous they'll let you go with a warning (but inflict the punishment on the other five) if you ask them to. Would it be moral for you to do so?

Would you accept that the vast overwhelming majority of people stay in the religion they were born into?

Now according to conventional christian thought, God doesn't punish us because he wants to, but because we all commited the offense. Would it be moral for you to accept heaven because you happen to have been born christian when a shintoist who commited the exact same offense will suffer external suffering?

Why are you trying to exploit a loophole to get out of paying for your sins?

H'ethetheth
29th September 2004, 03:16 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I didn't go through all of the thread. Doesn't the bible (John's Revelations) say that only 144000 people will bathe in the glory of god?
That's like a mid-size town. I'm never going to get in there. What if more than 144000 people accept God? What if heaven is allready full?

TragicMonkey
29th September 2004, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by H'ethetheth
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I didn't go through all of the thread. Doesn't the bible (John's Revelations) say that only 144000 people will bathe in the glory of god?
That's like a mid-size town. I'm never going to get in there. What if more than 144000 people accept God? What if heaven is allready full?

Heaven's going to be like "Survivor" --to stay there, you have to compete against everyone else. And you get to vote people into Hell if they don't win immunity in a challenge. If I get there, I'm going to form an alliance and vote Jesus himself into Hell. That should spike the ratings, and possibly earn me a book deal afterwards.

Upchurch
29th September 2004, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by Hazelip
Atlas, the only reference to being consumed by fire is by god.Actually, there is also Revelations 20:14-15
20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Of course, this is supposed to take place after the Rapture/Apocalypse thingie.

edited to add:
Interestingly, in the verse just before the two above, we learn that:20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.I say interesting because this says that at the Apocalypse we will be judged, not by our faith, but what we have done with our lives. Granted, that's a pretty wide field and ambiguous criteria. Still, faith alone, it seems, is not enough.

Gastric ReFlux
29th September 2004, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch
Actually, there is also Revelations 20:14-15
Of course, this is supposed to take place after the Rapture/Apocalypse thingie.

edited to add:
Interestingly, in the verse just before the two above, we learn that:I say interesting because this says that at the Apocalypse we will be judged, not by our faith, but what we have done with our lives. Granted, that's a pretty wide field and ambiguous criteria. Still, faith alone, it seems, is not enough.

So can we just agree at this point that the Christians or the thousands of sects who call themselves Christians can't really agree on the whole Bible interpretation thingy which rather detracts from the argument of it being God-inspired since it seems to lack an ability to make its believers agree on what the Bible means?

But I gotta admit it could be fun to go out, burn and slay heathens.

:k:

sackett
29th September 2004, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by Dymanic
. . . In attempting to understand a proselytizing fundamentalist, I can only refer to my own experiences as a former Christian. . . .
I don't think 1inChrist is enjoying his religionism. . . . It is not our doubts that bother him, it is his own. . . .

A good and thoughtful post. I will of course defer to your insights; I fear I was callous and superficial when I said that poor 1 in C is enjoying himself. In fact, he may well be a soul in torment, and if so then he deserves our pity and compassion. It would be criminal to mock him.

Now: How do we reach him? The fundamentalist must make his mind small, as small as possible in order to hide from the contradictions you rightly identify as a source of pain. What arguments can we use to locate and penetrate so small and hidden a thing as 1 in C's reason? - I want to say, his better nature.

Your experience in escaping from the place where fundamentalists hide may be of some help, although obviously your mind is of a quite different order than 1 in C's. Have you seen other, perhaps simpler folks cured of these delusions? Have you yourself ever succeeded in helping them out of their hell? Your further insights will be of real value in this and other cases.

Dymanic
29th September 2004, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by sackett

How do we reach him?
Perhaps a better question is: "Why do we want to?"

If we conclude that the proselytizer is externalizing his own doubt in an attempt to eliminate it by proxy, then we must also acknowledge that atheists are eligible too. I have come to realize that the things about other people that bother me the most -- the things I am most likely to notice -- are the things I am least willing to recognize in myself. But maybe that's just me. The key seems to be in making peace with my own doubts.

For me, I think Christianity was sort of like a zen koan. I struggled to resolve the paradoxes until something in me just got tired and gave up. I finally decided that what I believe is just whatever I believe, and what I doubt is whatever I doubt, and if anybody has a problem with that, it's their problem. As a bonus, I am somewhat less troubled by the fact that other people don't always believe what I believe (or doubt what I doubt).

Attempting to cure others of their delusions most often ends up being a roundabout way of addressing my own. (As I recall, that Jesus dude said something to that effect).

Ossai
29th September 2004, 08:56 AM
1inChrist
I'm telling you! You have two choices:

#1: Reject His Word and suffer in the eternal Hellfire.

#2: Accept the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross and spend eternity in Heaven with God, the Angels and the Saved.
Sounds like a mafia protection racket. Do what I say or I’ll send you to hell, especially since god is the one that created hell.

The original parents decided to disobey the Lord which is why we are all destined to the eternal Hellfire. However, Jesus Christ who died on the Cross will give us eternal Salvation and all we have to do is accept Him as our Lord and Savior. Sorry tried it, didn’t work.

Other religions cannot be trusted as The Word warns of false prophets, idols and gods. Like Jesus, since he fulfilled none of the messiah prophecies.

I do not know why God has chosen what He has but I do not question God. If God does it, He has His reasons. Fact: God=Good. If God does it, it's good whether we humans agree or not. God can not do evil. Then god is not omnipotent.

In the eyes of God ONE sin is worth an eternity of suffering. Sin is BAD BAD BAD. Sin in God's eyes is horrific and NOT tolerated. Which is why your god does it so often, correct?

God doesn't gamble. He knows all. Past, present, future and eternity. Since god is all knowing and all powerful, then freewill is an illusion and god knows whether or not you will go to heaven or hell before you’re even born. God created the world the way it is, therefore god deliberately creates people to go to hell. Must be because god likes the smell of burnt offerings, after all he created hell, fire and brimstone, and tosses people in and makes it so they burn forever.

You just put your hands over your ears and say ''There is a God. There is a God. There is a God. There is a God.'' However chanting and praying won't make Him magically appear.


You have a point here. He kept pestering me with his obsessions about heaven and hell, that's why I arranged the duel. Now that he's dead I feel much better.
God does not take part in duels. You’re right, it really wasn’t much of a duel. El Greco won easily, he just played with god a while to give the spectators more of a show.

Simple. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you. Did, still didn’t work.

Ossai

Atlas
29th September 2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Upchurch
Actually, there is also Revelations 20:14-15
Of course, this is supposed to take place after the Rapture/Apocalypse thingie.

edited to add:
Interestingly, in the verse just before the two above, we learn that:I say interesting because this says that at the Apocalypse we will be judged, not by our faith, but what we have done with our lives. Granted, that's a pretty wide field and ambiguous criteria. Still, faith alone, it seems, is not enough. Thanks for the post. I believe Hazelip must have specifically looked for "consumed by fire", which arguably is the inference one makes when talking about the destruction of the soul when it is thrown into the lake of fire. I think Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed by fire too.

I've never understood what else "the second death" would mean if not the death of the soul. I think medevalists and religionists fell in love with the concept of eternal torture as a winning argument for fearing God's all lovingness.

Good insight on the "interesting" catch you made. Judged by works. I never saw that one when I read it long ago. I guess I'd spin it this way if I were back in that box. You are saved by faith, the Bible says so... but you will be judged by works... so in the house of many mansions you may end up as a stable boy, but thats still pretty good while you await the end of eternity. Better than being judged first into the lake. Being tossed in toward the middle or end is surely preferred.

sackett
29th September 2004, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Dymanic
Perhaps a better question is: "Why do we want to?" . . .

Because it's human nature to try to set somebody straight when we see him going wrong.

If you met a Cargo Cultist (and they still exist, make no doubt of that) you'd try to clue him in to the fact that glass beads and iron and canned beef don't come from the spirit world, they're made by real men living on a real earth, and his frantic mumbo-jumbo accomplishes nothing. Surely the same goes for any other kind of ignorant believer in bullsh**t.

I'm glad you mentioned Zen. Buddhism, especially Zen, recommends compassion as a good thing to practice. There's even a specialized "Buddhist Compassion," which entails trying to bring enlightenment to the deluded.

The enlightenment we're trying to pound into 1 in C's head is elementary stuff: primitive Christian fundamentalism is unworthy of a thinking being. I doubt that anyone here feels particularly smug or sanctimonious about such an elementary endeavor - and I certainly don't think any of us are struggling with any sort of delusions of our own.

Dynamic, we only disagree in this: I don't think 1 in C and his fellows are beyond help, or that the effort to help them isn't worth making.

Atlas
29th September 2004, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by H'ethetheth
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I didn't go through all of the thread. Doesn't the bible (John's Revelations) say that only 144000 people will bathe in the glory of god? I think others will merely recieve washcloths.
That's like a mid-size town. I'm never going to get in there. What if more than 144000 people accept God? What if heaven is allready full? Expect long lines to get in... Bring donuts.

c4ts
29th September 2004, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by 1inChrist
People always ask ''If God is loving, why does He send people to tell knowing before He created them that their eternal home would be the Lake of Fire?''

Simple. Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him. Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God!
Your idea of winning differs greatly from mine. Had He simply created a universe in which evil was impossible (and kept it that way, all of it being possible though omnipotence), He could do anything, including create man, and evil could not beat Him. Surely if an omniscient being is aware of his mistakes and their consequences, and he is capable of preventing them, he will not make them. To say otherwise is to admit to the existence of a power higher than God, because you are saying this power forced God into making mistakes He knew about. Or, you are saying God let evil win on purpose, which would make God evil.

If God decides not to do something because of evil that means God has been defeated by evil and that cannot happen. He HAD to create us or evil would of defeated God.
Why? Who was making God create a version of man capable of evil, or a universe that can support evil for that matter? Free will is still free will, even if you can't do certain things. In our universe you cannot do certain things such as eat yourself until you turn inside out or suddenly transform into a glass of lemonade for no apparent reason, and yet humans are still able to have free will without the ability to make such decisions, so why not make evil a similar impossibility? God didn't have to create the devil. Do you think evil could have won if He didn't?

Why reject Him and the Truth found in His Word?

Because you just proved that your "Truth" is a load of idiotic drivel!

Dymanic
29th September 2004, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by sackett

Because it's human nature to try to set somebody straight when we see him going wrong.
I agree. But that really isn't an explanation, it's just an observation. I think it is also part of human nature that we often do things without realizing why we do them.
I certainly don't think any of us are struggling with any sort of delusions of our own. 'Delusion' is a pretty strong word. I'd feel confindent in suggesting that there may be one or two things about which one or two of us are mistaken.
Dynamic, we only disagree in this: I don't think 1 in C and his fellows are beyond help, or that the effort to help them isn't worth making.I don't think we disagree on that at all. I just don't see it as a strictly one-directional process.

The GM
29th September 2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by sackett

Dynamic, we only disagree in this: I don't think 1 in C and his fellows are beyond help, or that the effort to help them isn't worth making.

Amen.

I had prepared a somewhat lengthy reply to this, but alas it got wiped in transit.
Here’s the short version.
I don’t feel the need to convert 1inC to atheism (cause I’m not one) or agnosticism, or to any –ism. What I support is his search for the thing he’s looking for. Think about it guys, 1inC isn’t here because he’s especially fond of being called a moron or having his ego bashed. Nor is he here to evangelize. He is here because his daughters, who it sounds like he loves very much, have rejected religion. This scares him. The thought of them being choice logs for the fire of Hell *is* scary. So he gets on the internet to find out what their thinking might be, perhaps to convince them to come back into the fold. In the meantime, he reads, he learns, he questions. Perhaps he has ‘forbidden’ thoughts like, ‘Hey, RabidAtheist21 has a point there.’ He squelches those pesky thoughts like a bug, but the seed is already there. Maybe it’s even been there for awhile, waiting to be watered. So now he wonders, is it Satan? Is he trying to trick me into turning away from God and losing my soul? It must be, because otherwise why would I be so conflicted?
So he prays, and he professes his belief to anyone who may listen, hoping like hell that God will send him a sign, a sign that everything will be ok. In the meantime…quiet desperation. He goes to church, he says the Lord’s prayer, he waits in anxious fear.

Here’s the deal. I hope that 1inC challenges his views. I hope he questions the crap outta his pastor, his daughters, his wife, us, and anyone who can help add to the puzzle pieces. I hope he finds what he is looking for…peace. I support his efforts to become comfortable in his own skin, and to realize that rejection of religion is not a rejection of God. There’s a whole other world waiting for those strong enough, and I dare say, brave enough to shake off the cloak of fear that religion often is. I wish 1inC the best of luck in his endeavors.

c4ts
29th September 2004, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by sackett
Because it's human nature to try to set somebody straight when we see him going wrong.

If you met a Cargo Cultist (and they still exist, make no doubt of that) you'd try to clue him in to the fact that glass beads and iron and canned beef don't come from the spirit world, they're made by real men living on a real earth, and his frantic mumbo-jumbo accomplishes nothing. Surely the same goes for any other kind of ignorant believer in bullsh**t.

I'm glad you mentioned Zen. Buddhism, especially Zen, recommends compassion as a good thing to practice. There's even a specialized "Buddhist Compassion," which entails trying to bring enlightenment to the deluded.

The enlightenment we're trying to pound into 1 in C's head is elementary stuff: primitive Christian fundamentalism is unworthy of a thinking being. I doubt that anyone here feels particularly smug or sanctimonious about such an elementary endeavor - and I certainly don't think any of us are struggling with any sort of delusions of our own.

Dynamic, we only disagree in this: I don't think 1 in C and his fellows are beyond help, or that the effort to help them isn't worth making.

Not to mention that 1 in C thinks he is trying to set us straight...

Dragonrock
29th September 2004, 10:29 AM
GM, if you and I ever meet I'm gonna buy you a beer for that post. Well said and a hearty "Here! Here!"

The GM
29th September 2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Dragonrock
GM, if you and I ever meet I'm gonna buy you a beer for that post. Well said and a hearty "Here! Here!"

Heh. Boulevard Wheat Ale with a slice of orange, please.