Karate tricks

[thaiboxerken]

So a guy claims that Ki is real.. Nothing new here. But he does make a claim about a demonstration that he participated in.

How would you explain that one elderly man could push over over 60 black belt, well coordinated students, lined up in a row, with one hand?

And here is my initial assessment of how the trick is done.

"Body mechanics plus the belief of the students that they will be pushed down. 60 people can not effectively coordinate to actually put their force onto the old guy. The first one or two people are effective, the rest are just getting in each other's way. The first couple of people fall, and the rest fall like a domino effect. It is a trick, although an impressive one."



Anyone have any other explanations besides "ki"?

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=193477#193477

[crimresearch]

Martial arts is one of the greatest repositorys of trickery this side of the 'healing' arena.

Ki/Qi/Chee is handy because it can be used as an 'explanation' for any phenomena...and people in the business of separating students from their money are going to work it till it bleeds.

Board breaking, twirling antique weapons, pushing people over...all revolve around the concept of training the body to do something slightly unusual, and then dressing it up to appear more than it is...

[JSFolk]

For what it's worth, when I was in karate, we didn't discuss board breaking as anything "mystical", just as a proper application of force and technique. Of course, it also helps you train a bit for aiming, since you get a very strong negative feedback if you hit the edge of the board, not the center.

Completely agree that many of the claims seen in martial arts arenas are pretty damn woowoo, though.

[thaiboxerken]

Yep, the bleevers in Ki/Chi seem to use the exact same arguments and excuses that bleevers in psi, god or other paranormal things do. I'm closed and won't understand until I experience it for myself.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

"Body mechanics plus the belief of the students that they will be pushed down. 60 people can not effectively coordinate to actually put their force onto the old guy. The first one or two people are effective, the rest are just getting in each other's way. The first couple of people fall, and the rest fall like a domino effect. It is a trick, although an impressive one."


I agree thai. I've also simply seen some people take down some other people by 'hanging' on them as they fall.

There is also the related feat of a taijiquan person demonstrating his/her ability to not be pushed over; rooting, or just having a good stance in taijiquan. For example, see the "Lining up for the grand push" photo at http://www.wuweitaichi.com/photo-picnic.php.

It seems to me that the taijiquan person is simply resisting the push of the first person, possibly the second, but not the rest. They seem to think, perhaps, that the forces of all the people pushing are additive, so that by the time the push travels to the practicioner, the force is huge! Realistically, however, and I'm not knowledgeable in physics, I'd bet all the forces get dissapated, except the force of the person closest to the practicioner.

Since I believe a pull from the back has the same effect as a push from the front, I'd challenge the practicioner to having all these people pulling a rope that was tied to the practicioner, and see if the practicioner could withstand it by "rooting".

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by JSFolk
For what it's worth, when I was in karate, we didn't discuss board breaking as anything "mystical", just as a proper application of force and technique. Of course, it also helps you train a bit for aiming, since you get a very strong negative feedback if you hit the edge of the board, not the center.

Completely agree that many of the claims seen in martial arts arenas are pretty damn woowoo, though.

Board breaking is a part of the training process that helps the student get over the fear of injuring their hands...it helps somewhat with focus as well.

Once it has been done, the student should be ready to move on to better methods (heavy bags and force pads for example) in their training, and not stack up more and more boards (sometimes with spacers betweeen them) in preparation for a multiple board breaking demonstration at a tournament, test, or at the mall.

If you were in a karate school that eschewed all of the demo/testing multiple board breaking showmanship, you were in a rare one.

[thaiboxerken]

Ahh.. a tug of war test. Nah, that wouldn't work, the chi can't travel along the rope.........

I suggested that he push a car with it's parking brake on.

[thaiboxerken]

I've never done a board break. But, then again, boards have never really offended me.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
I've never done a board break. But, then again, boards have never really offended me.

Yeah, but don't try to convince me that you haven't done the coconut break on your forehead at least a hundred times...
:p

[T'ai Chi]

Forget boards, James Lacy uses his '18 Daoist Palm' system to break coconuts: http://www.ironpalm.com/. WTF.

[thaiboxerken]

Remember, don't try this at home! LOL

This cocunut guy is nutty. Watching the creative coconut break clip, I was laughing a bit. He's sitting there karate chopping the coconut and he fails to break it the first few hits. I can almost hear his thoughts "holy jesus freaking christ this hurts!".

[NoZed Avenger]

This reminds me of the "magnetic girls" that paraded through the midwest back around the turn of the century -- incredible feats of strength, etc., based entirely on leverage and body mechanics.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally posted by JSFolk
For what it's worth, when I was in karate, we didn't discuss board breaking as anything "mystical", just as a proper application of force and technique.

It also helps if you cut the wood across the grain, and then bake in in an oven beforehand to make it nice and dry.

Roof tiles are good too, because although they're really quite big and brittle how many people have ever tried to break one with their hand?

When I was doing Southern Mantis Kung Fu they occasionally broke roofing tiles at demonstrations. I was too junior to be allowed to break tiles on stage myself, so I amused myself by breaking up the broken bits into smaller bits afterwards. I'm no Bruce Lee (although I'd been doing martial arts on and off for a decade or so by this point), and it's much harder to break a small bit than a big bit, and I had little difficulty.

Two anecdotes that arose from this.

#1. I was a mere yellow belt. I showed an orange belt from another branch of the school how easy it was to pop small chunks of roof tile, and he popped a bit himself. I then pointed out to the small crowd of kung fu students around us that this act of breaking was actually significantly harder than the ones our seniors had performed on stage. Dead silence, feeble excuses, let's move right along now guys.

#2. One of the purple belts couldn't even break her two tiles. My sifu later claimed to the class that this was because they were extra-special, wire-reinforced roof tiles. Funny, because I broke the bits of tile up into smaller bits with my own hands and I never once saw a wire anywhere.

[Zep]

Having had to do roof repairs with tiles, it's actually obvious that you need to be careful NOT to break tiles - they are actually quite brittle, and will break with little pressure at all. I was carrying two, one in each hand, and one banged against my knee accidentally - a corner broke off, and I had to get a replacement. Poop.

Heading into our 9th year in karate (brown belt), Zeplette and I have both done a few board breaks. They are much easier than they appear IF you hit them square and along the grain. One of the 20-something lower-grades actually broke one over his knee by simply leaning on the edges!

[crimresearch]

As a youth, I spent a summer as a brick mason's helper.
Those guys could grab a red brick from a pile and pop them in half like they were candy...pure physics, no 'Cheee' required.

[Bikewer]

Randi had an anecdote about buying some "karate boards" from a supplier for a demonstration he wanted to do; the guy warned him to be real careful with them.....

There are all sorts of such tricks; breaking big blocks of ice is a common trick at demonstrations. You can cut the block in two, dose the cut ends with salt, then re-freeze. Looks good, but quite fragile.
Same with rocks/bricks. Rocks can be almost invisibly rejoined, and look quite authentic.

Another popular item is arrow-catching. One guy used to do this fairly often...but he used arrows with "flu-flu" fletching, which really slows the arrow down.

And, as some wag noted, nothing is made stronger by setting it on fire....

[crimresearch]

And, as some wag noted, nothing is made stronger by setting it on fire....

Including Richie Barathay?

;)

[thaiboxerken]

Here is a post by a bleever at the karate forum.

"thaiboxerken thinks only science can prove anything. Science can only make determinations from the information that it has already "proven" to itself. According to science, physics in particular, any movement at all is impossible.
I also happen to believe that science with a closed mind is not science at all. If we all went around thinking things this way then nothing new would ever be discovered.
Some people like to camouflage a closed mind as a logical, scientific mind. However, it's mostly these individuals simply fooling themselves."

Can you notice the similarities to arguments given by other types of paranormal believers?

[El Greco]

In case you missed this old post of mine: Collecting Ki from the furthest galaxy (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=31494)

Oh boy, how much of this crap had I had to endure :D

[epepke]

Originally posted by crimresearch
As a youth, I spent a summer as a brick mason's helper.
Those guys could grab a red brick from a pile and pop them in half like they were candy...pure physics, no 'Cheee' required.

Bricks, tiles, wood with the grain as opposed to against it, and concrete have relatively little tensile strength.

That's how rebar works. If you look at a piece of rebar, it has little ridges on it. Just sticking it into concrete helps a bit. However, to do a real job, you stretch the rebar and cast the concrete around it. Then you let the rebar go. The little ridges compress the concrete just a bit so that moderate strain just relieves compression rather than causing tension.

That's also why quenching, case hardening, and tempering work. They put the material at the surface in compression.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
How would you explain that one elderly man could push over over 60 black belt, well coordinated students, lined up in a row, with one hand?

If they were not standing "glued together" (chest to back, chest to back), it would be the domino effect. If they were, I would assume a collaboration of tricksters.

As for tiles: When the wind blows, tiles are lifted from the roofs and smashed to pieces on the pavement. Try dropping a rock from the roof, and you get a hole in the ground.

[Bikewer]

One thing to take into account when viewing these demonstrations is "who is participating?"

If the "master" is surrounded by his own students, one can readily suspect collaboration, or at least the fact that they are probably true believers who are doing what's expected of them.

Much the same thing happens in religious revivals and tent shows. Individuals who are "slain by the spirit" ( a simple tap on the forehead) fall to the floor quite convincingly (or into the arms of helpers-wouldn't want a lawsuit) not only because they believe, but because it's expected behaviour.

[thaiboxerken]

It's amazing how this believer in Ki refuses to acknowledge the mundane explanations for the tricks he's seen.

Then again, I guess believers of anything paranormal aren't all that different.

[epepke]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
It's amazing how this believer in Ki refuses to acknowledge the mundane explanations for the tricks he's seen.

Maybe not.

Ki or Qui or whatever it is is a nice short word. And if someone asks you for a scientific-sounding explanation, you can always say "energy."

Physics has a a lot more words. There's energy and work and force and torque and linear and angular momentum and kinetic energy versus various kinds of potential energy. Also, in materials science there's tensile strength and compressive strength and stress and strain and torsion and slip and crystal lattices and adhesion and cohesion and static friction and moving friction and turbulence and all sorts of other whatnot.

If you had a tiny little brain that could only keep track of so much, which would you pick?

[thaiboxerken]

You're not entirely correct. The Ki people have used all of those words the psychics use. They also keep changing the definition of Ki, just like psychics do.. from energy, to body mechanics, to understanding of the body, to understanding of the spirit.. etc.

[thaiboxerken]

Hehhe.. they banned me. Said that I was too insultive and eluded to profane language...by posting things like STFU and BS.

Oh well. They are stupid karate people.

[Anathema]

During my stint with martial arts, I experienced the "go along with the sensei" phenomenon many times. Dojo-decorum forbids any contradiction of the sensei, and you make an implicit pledge to check your own brain and credibility at the door.

The demonstrations of chi feats was a joke. The whole "rooting" demonstration in which the humongous sensei "pretends" he can't pick you up when "focus on making yourself heavy" was the most obvious. Then there were the magic "meridian touches" for incapacitating an opponent with 6" swipe of the finger down the back of his neck. Students would fall over themselves to be the "victim" for the sensei's demonstration of that one --- and give their full cooperation.

Still, BS aside, there were some practical self-defense concepts thrown in, and overall the training (between eye-rolls) was worthwhile.

[thaiboxerken]

Yep, among all the bullshido in martial arts, there are some actually useful concepts and approaches. I am one to challenge authority, and I've told a few instructors how I felt about chi.

[Phrost]

We had a hilarious article written by one of our more 'antagonistic' members over at Bullshido about James Lacy...

The guy claims to be able to teach "Cancer Palm" from what I've read.

I'll have to dig it up. It's mean, and not exactly up to journalistic standards, but pretty funny in context.

[Phrost]

Since I own the copyright on this, I'm just going to paste it here.

I think the author has considerately changed the spelling of several words to bypass profanity filters. Not that he needed to on Bullshido, because we don't recognize the irrational concept of such a thing as a "bad" word.

It apparently never got carried over from the old version of our site:

Jim Lacy

This guy has been on my hit list for quite awhile boys and girls. I had always knew that he had, in my own humble opinions, views and beliefs about his martial art that I would call "fukking crazy" but in the 11/02 Black Belt Magazine he really talks about the "more interesting" side of his art.

Jim Lacy is a Grandmaster of Five Elder Monk Mew Hing's 18 Daoist Palm system. This basically means that Jim Lacy would probably try and convince you that he could fly if his Chi was strong enough and he had enough Dit Da Jow. Lacy uses his Iron Palm to perform the very impressive act of breaking coconuts with hsi bare hands. Im not sure what exactly the value of destroying food IS in the martial arts world but whatever it is, Lacy has got in up his Ying Yang. Good Old Grandmaster Jim looks like a weird hybrid of a Hell's Angel and a Shaolin Monk. Big bushy beard, odd ball tattoos, and in one picture a long black robe. If he and Jim Arvanitus ever had a kid it would look like the Elephant Man.

In his article for Black Belt Grandmaster Jim Lacy (or just Jimmy Palms if you want to feel like you know him) says ALOT of stupid shiit. He treats readers to a vast wealth of knowledge about such things as "Tibetian lama burning palm":


quote:
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To prove proficiency, up to nine people could be lined up belly-to-back. The master could leave a complete hand print on any one of them without harming the others. In modern times this is considered too dangerous to demonstrate.
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Believe it or not, this maniac is serious.

During his article he also mentions how his instructor used "shaky/vibrating palm" to "...move liquid in my stomach from a half foot away." He also babbles about "Springy Palm" which can cause cancer. He never mentions if there is an H.I.V. palm. He probably keeps all the GOOD STUFF for himself. I'd hate to go up against a guy with H.I.V. palm. And even shaking HANDS with a pratitioner of Hairy Palm would be traumatic.

Pyrokenesis anyone? Lacy also claims that practitioners of the "Fire Palm" can cause substances to ignite. He says that he has seen a video of his former teacher igniting a small peice of paper.


quote:
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If your lucky and dilligent enough to spend at least a few hours every day training at the same time, you might learn how to do it in 10 years. However, being able to do it is said to require some sexual abstinence-not much. It also requires a strict diet and certain herbal liniment preperations like mountain yam to be rubbed all over your body to keep you from overheating.
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Its the year 2002 and there is someone NOT in a mental institution which believes that you can make yourself into a fukking flamethrower. Do people really believe this shiit? They MUST because the guy sells videos and books on all of this crap. Some of you may or may not know a guy by the name of Wickersnatch from ADCC Forum. If you know him already then you KNOW that he would want to pork Jim Lacy in the worst way. This guy is RIGHT up his alley. He could use the vibrationg palm on him.

Lacy wrote an article about Grappling asking how a Grappler could withstand a blow that

quote:
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.... cracked his skull or severely damaged his central nervous system or even ruptured a vital organ? There is no defense to this type of technique, and that is why you don’t see it happening in the NHB competitions.
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He also says that there are many fighters who could accomplish this. Of COURSE there is Jim! Has anyone called the fukking asylum yet? I think our ol' boy Jim needs a visit from the men in the white coats. Lets break this down a bit. This guy belives, amongst ALOT of other nonesense, that a person can:

1. Cause Cancer by touching you.

2. Shoot his palm strike through 6 fukking people and hurt only YOU.

3. Make the chili dog you had for lunch jump around in your stomach from half a foot away.

4. Turn a man into the fukking Firestarter.


All of this is what makes me want to label Jim Lacy a fruitcake. If you want to read more about him go to www.ironpalm.com. Its like browsing thru the martial arts version of an old time freak show. Theres more wacky shiit in that site than nearly any other I've seen. And thats saying alot. I can't believe that people like this are allowed to roam the street with the rest of us. If I tell you I can fly, or that I'm the Pope, I would get locked away. THIS nut OPENLY says that people can have fire super powers and that certain strikes can cause cancer and people PAY him for his knowledge!

Amazing.

The next time someone tells you Kung Fu is a realistic art send them to Jim Lacy's site. They'll thank you later for the comedy.

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by jzs
There is also the related feat of a taijiquan person demonstrating his/her ability to not be pushed over; rooting, or just having a good stance in taijiquan. For example, see the "Lining up for the grand push" photo at http://www.wuweitaichi.com/photo-picnic.php.


I can just imagine if these guys went to leave and discovered one of their cars stuck in some mud. "We'll have to push it out - everybody line up."

[Bikewer]

There's a fairly-well documented tale ( I think it was on some Asian TV station) of Bruce Lee confronting one of these "rooted stance" types.
He invited Lee to push him over, and Lee simply knocked him out...

[crimresearch]

Folks would do well to study up on the history of China, particularly the reputation of the Southern Chinese for extreme 'salesmanship', circus trickery, and taking advantage of the gullible and superstitious. It isn't just a family and cultural tradition, it is a point of honor to be good at such things.

And guess which part of China was responsible for most of the interaction with the West in things like martial arts, etc?

Nor are the other Asian societies blameless either.

The Okinawans deliberately sent the Japanese a childrens version of their art, which they promptly turned into 'Karate', and peddled to the Americans and let the Koreans make an even more defective copy of, as TKD.

And let us not forget Hollywood.
Dog breeders are well aware that the kiss of death for the integrity and health of any breed is to be featured in a movie, resulting in huge demand, resulting in unscrupulous breeding...
And Hollywood has the same effect on martial arts...whatever the flavor of the month is, your local strip mall school is sure to add that to the list of styles taught by the 30 year old 'master'.


Basically there are a very limited number of effective ways to hit someone, to kick properly and safely, to twist someone's arm and so forth...but there are myriad ways to dress that up into a profitable package.

When one considers the millions of people who pay money to get that martial arts 'package', it would be good to remember the whole of the 'Sucker born every minute' saying...."And two to take him".
(Another useful item would be to research the meaning of the phrase 'eat bitter'.)

[Anathema]

Originally posted by crimresearch


The Okinawans deliberately sent the Japanese a childrens version of their art, which they promptly turned into 'Karate' This statement conflicts with what I've heard in Okinawan martial arts schools (Isshin-ryu and Shuri-ryu, with a dash of Shotokan) --- do you have any sources I could view? I know there was no love lost between the Japanese and the Okinawans for a long period of their history, but I hadn't heard of any organized plan to feed them a whopper while holding the "truth" back from them.

IIRC, Gichin Funakoshi moved to Japan in the 1920's, with the stated purpose of bringing the essence of Okinawan martial arts to the Japanese people. Again, IIRC, he says about as much in his autobiography (which I don't have unpacked at present, so I can't verify).

I have heard a lot of conflicting stories about "the early days", when various Okinawan masters interacted with the "outside world", but all of them seem to indicate total generousity in teaching the "heart" of Okinawan Karate-do to anyone sincere about learning. If you have any more authoritative records, I'd like to learn more.

[crimresearch]

Well, the simplest way would be to compare the forms and particularly the applications from the original Okinawan styles such as Naha-Te and Suri-Te with Shotokan. They are as different as night and day.

(And you can make a similar comparison of the older Korean poomse forms with the Shotokan versions).

The Japanese/modern full rotation of the fist, inclusion of blocks, stiff thrusting high kicks, and kihon bunkai are all part of an evidently changed curriculum.

Funakoshi's story seems to be that he was changing the system to give the Japanese something in which they could focus on traditional Japanese values...

The Japanese claim that Funakoshi improved upon the old stuff, and there are Okinawans who claim that there was a meeting of high ranking instructors before Funakoshi left, during which he was told not to teach 'oyo' bunkai...only kihon, kata and later kumite..all childrens' activities, similar to 'boffer' weapons today.

I sold off hundreds of martial arts books a few years ago, and don't have the references in front of me...check the Uechi forums, someone over there probably keeps up with those things.

[Bikewer]

Talking about that "kiss of death" phenomenon....I recall back when "Kung Fu" hit the TV with an oh-so-inscrutable David Carridine doing the Paladin bit...

Dozens of "karate" instructors sent off to Paladin press for a couple of kung fu books and hung out shingles as Shaolin (or whatever of some 200 styles) schools.

Same thing happened with the Ninja craze.

Tis' kind of interesting being more of an overall observer rather than a particpant. Martial arts styles seem to generally grow up in a rather isolated environment, frequently rather secret. (as in the above Okinawan case, where the Okinawans were denied weapons by the occupying feudal Japanese.)

It's only when these styles began to bump up against one another (as it were) that they change and adapt. I recall the beginnings of "full contact" Karate here in the states, with participants manfully trying to use the classic hand techniques they'd been studying for so many years.
It rapidly became apparent that those lovely fully-chambered punches were just too inefficient in the ring, and the more successful fighters began to use Western boxing techniques.
(thus learning a lesson, perhaps, from Savate, which preceded them by many years.)
In fairly short order, "kickboxing" was the name of the game, and even the rather stodgy TKD guys were teaching their students some boxing technique.
Then along comes the UFC, and suddenly grappling is the hot item..... And so it goes.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by jzs
It seems to me that the taijiquan person is simply resisting the push of the first person, possibly the second, but not the rest. They seem to think, perhaps, that the forces of all the people pushing are additive, so that by the time the push travels to the practicioner, the force is huge! Realistically, however, and I'm not knowledgeable in physics, I'd bet all the forces get dissapated, except the force of the person closest to the practicioner.

If not, then the person closest has the force of fifty-nine people pushing on him one way, and a guy with the strength of sixty people pushing the other way. So who's the real miracle worker here?

Let's see the tajiquan person get his head down and push back a rugby scrum. Solo.

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
Let's see the tajiquan person get his head down and push back a rugby scrum. Solo.

Well put.

[Wudang]

I tried this with some of my students years back and confirmed my suspicions. Try lining up to push a wall - or better as we did the horizontal iron rail of a fence. try being the second or third guy and feel how much struggling your stabilising muscles have to do - the ones that hold your joints in place etc. While these are struggling they act as brakes on the main muscles becuase we're designed not to overstress those muscles - one reason that people who use over-isolating nautilus style equipment can't lift anything like the same weight free style. As someone once said, if you want to push start a car do you go in a line or go across the car?

Years back a guy called Bill Knittle (memory?) used to post good stuff about how a lot of these tricks were achieved. Baking board as KL said - once he saw a board that crumbled when a guy lined up on because it was so overbaked. Ice blocks loaded with salt so they are more fragile - apparently they also look more spectacular.

[gnome]

I was engaged in a few martial arts classes when I was somewhat younger.

The first was a Mang Chuan Kung Fu school. I loved the style, and it was interesting to be the only Chinese stylists at tournaments dominated mostly by Japanese styles. I ultimately had to quit for two reasons...

1. My Sifu, an American who had studied under a chinese instructor, was a fine instructor of the techniques themselves, but was quite racist if you happened to speak to him outside of his school. That cost me respect for him, and it just doesn't work to study under someone you don't respect.

2. The cost behame prohibitive.

This class said much about what application of "Chi" could do, and I heard many anecdotes but saw little in practice. But even without amazing Chi demonstrations, it was a beautiful style.

Later I wound up in a group of students studying Nin-Po (something like Ninjitsu that was not quite the same in a subtle way that eludes my memory)... the instructor's name was David Held, taught a small group out of his home, and I would love to find him again for my kids. He taught simple, practical techniques with moves and countermoves as elegant as a chess game. He promised nothing supernatural, gave sound advice about handling opponents with guns, and was very good with kids.

[Hellbound]

Originally posted by gnome
Later I wound up in a group of students studying Nin-Po (something like Ninjitsu that was not quite the same in a subtle way that eludes my memory)... the instructor's name was David Held, taught a small group out of his home, and I would love to find him again for my kids. He taught simple, practical techniques with moves and countermoves as elegant as a chess game. He promised nothing supernatural, gave sound advice about handling opponents with guns, and was very good with kids.

As I understand it, Ninjutsu is the name for the whole range of things that went intop a Ninja's training; Taijutsu is the name for the hand-to-hand combat that is part of ninjutsu. I could be wrong, though :)

My brother took a martial arts course that sounds a lot like what you described, though. They focused on real-world situations, like defending against baseball bats, two by fours, knives, guns, and other things you're likely to run into. Seriously, how many times are you going to defend against a sword, kama, tonfa, or bo? Or have one available to defend yourself? He thought it was a good course, and it apparantly taught him something (he's had to defend himself several times, and been very successful so far).

On the other side, he joined an ATA TWD place in Florida, just so he could get into competitions. He didn't mention his other martial arts training (he had a black belt in Kung Fu, in addition to his earlier training), and just went along with the course. He used to laugh about having an orange belt try to correct him on his style. He also mentioned how ATA created a lot of extra belts, to get more money from students. Your next belt is based as much on time as ability, so by creating more belts they get students to stay longer. They had a "camo" belt, for Ed's sake!

He's now in a Special Forces unit in Florida, and was recently offered a position as an instructor for SF courses. He's Guard, though, and the instructor position would've been full-time, so he turned it down.

[Skep]

Originally posted by epepke
Bricks, tiles, wood with the grain as opposed to against it, and concrete have relatively little tensile strength.

That's how rebar works. If you look at a piece of rebar, it has little ridges on it. Just sticking it into concrete helps a bit. However, to do a real job, you stretch the rebar and cast the concrete around it. Then you let the rebar go. The little ridges compress the concrete just a bit so that moderate strain just relieves compression rather than causing tension.

That's also why quenching, case hardening, and tempering work. They put the material at the surface in compression.

I'd love to replace the usual softwood boards with boards that have the grain perpendicular to the suspension and see what happens. While I've no doubt that some people could still break a single board this way, those stacks of boards would stay stacks of boards.

[thaiboxerken]

I'd like to see them break 2X4's from Lowe's.

[Skep]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
I'd like to see them break 2X4's from Lowe's.

Yeah, especially using short lengths of 2x4. They do do tricks with long 2x4's, though, where they take an 8' 2x4 and whack it over someone's leg or back in a way that breaks it with about 1/2 to 2/3’s of the board breaking off. Oddly enough, I have found that many trees and lampposts have enough chi for me to perform this trick on them. A similar trick is done with carefully selected and marked, thin-handled baseball bats--it looks rather painful but not magical and more of an endorsement of physics than chi. I've also seen similar feats done in one of those Musclemen for God type shows.

[crimresearch]

I may be misremembering this, but don't Hatusme's people claim that 'Ninpo' is the proper name for the art/system, and that 'Ninjutsu' doesn't exist, while Taijutsu refers to the fighting techniques?

[gnome]

Originally posted by crimresearch
I may be misremembering this, but don't Hatusme's people claim that 'Ninpo' is the proper name for the art/system, and that 'Ninjustsu' doesn't exist, while Taijutsu refers to the fighting techniques?

That may be it...! Thank you...

[Wudang]

Here (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22bill+knittle%22+martial&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&selm=19930604095412EIW8MSD%40MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU&rnum=6) is an old post by the aforementioned Bill Knittle from years gone by. I'm also reminded of a book a magician martial artist described called "Body tricks" or "body magic" which explained how to do tricks like the magnetic girl which he said, with some evidence, were also some good examples of how some internal MA stunts worked.

More Bill exploding bottles (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl459954826d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&selm=19930611101337EIW8MSD%40MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU&rnum=45)
breaking (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22bill+knittle%22+martial+breaking&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&selm=19931012092017EIW8BUK%40MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU&rnum=4)

[stingy get]

Thanks for the links Wudang

I've got several Kung fu books at home with pictures of 'chi' demonstrations and I've often wondered how they did the selective breaking feat - i.e breaking one brick in a pile.

Now I know!

[thaiboxerken]

http://www.mindboxing.com/frames.html

Now here is more nonsense in the martial arts. Check out the "Zero hit" video.

These people are just silly.

[thaiboxerken]

Bill Knittle is awesome, I notice that several believers don't care for his explanations though.

[Hellbound]

Originally posted by crimresearch
I may be misremembering this, but don't Hatusme's people claim that 'Ninpo' is the proper name for the art/system, and that 'Ninjutsu' doesn't exist, while Taijutsu refers to the fighting techniques?

You may well be right. However, considering that both words use the same root (Nin, meaning invisible..or something similar) makes me wonder if the two words aren't really equivalent, perhaps differnt dialects or descriptions. The "jutsu" suffix means "The art of", I wonder if "po" likewise means something like "Way of" or "Life of" or something along those lines. While the phrase "Ninjutsu" might not have been used historically, I don't know that I'd necessarily call it incorrect.

Just my two cents worth (actually, due to depreciation of the Huntsman Mental Currency, it's only about .4 cents worth. But it's all you're getting. Deal with it. :D)

[crimresearch]

The suffixes like 'jutsu' are supposed to be all important to those who buy into the various style rivalries and origination myths.

In the case of the the Ninja craze I quit trying to sort out the competing lineage/authenticity claims around...oh about Andy Adams.

I did enjoy the Glenn Morris book on Martial Arts Madness, and I believe that is where I got the idea that knowing the correct term was ninpo was a litmus test of sorts.
(Again, for those who care).

Of course, the number of 'karate' instructors who think the word means 'empty hand', or the number of Taichi instructors who think that it means 'Ultimate Fist' (or that it has something to do with Chi) is a good buyer beware tool, so there may be something to the ninpo/ninjutsu distinction.

[Bikewer]

The historian, Turnbull, wrote a very nice book on the ninja

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1841765252/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/102-9904791-4045715

Which exposed many of the mythic elements of Ninjutsu as creations of the idealized Feudal Period, made popular in plays and writings well after the "reformation".

Hatsume even did a nice forward to the book, saying that "Turnbull knows more about the Japanese than the Japanese do."

True believers think he was just being polite....


Turnbull's other books on Japanese history are excellent as well, BTW.

[T'ai Chi]

wudang, from the first post you linked too, the coin grab is even better when you first palm a penny, say, and at the same time you take the quarter, you drop the penny in their hand, which they then clench. You've not only grabbed the quarter, you've replaced it with a penny you are that quick. :)

[Operaider]

As a black belt in Kenpo and Tai Kwon Do, these parnarmal claims always pissed me off. It's similar to Randi and the psychics. If Randi can do the same things without the use or Psi power, then why would you think that the psychics arn't using the same technique. Likewise, if I can knock someone over with (what only appears to be) light force, then why would you believe that Chi is needed.

So far I've read every post on this subject, and you've all pretty much figured it out. Keep in mind that these types of claims go back thousands of years. It was used as a way of intimidating the competition. 90% of all fighting is mental, and being able to get that edge over the compedition is essential. In feudal japan, where your power directly coresponded to the skills of your warriours, it came in very handy to spread rumors of supernatural powers. These claims instilled fear and respect among rivals. It's psychological warefare. These same myths still being used today to talk up senseis. Only difference is, now it's being used to promote a buisness instead of scare off the competition

EXAMPLE: While practicing Kenpo in California our dojo competed in several tournaments, which we did very well in. The tournaments have several different divisions fighting, team fight, forms, showmanship, weapons, etc. My specialty was fighting. Now, I am not very big and many of the matches I won were against people with more skill than I had. The one advantage I had was that I could frighten the apponent. I would growl when I attacked, intentionally knock the apponent out of the ring, stare him down, and smile after receaving his hardest hits. If I could have gotten away with claiming supernatural powers I would have :D. The whole point is to convince someone that you are something more than human. People fear that, and they pay good money to learn it

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Skep
I've also seen similar feats done in one of those Musclemen for God type shows.
Please, please, tell me you just made that concept up. Fakirs for Jesus?

Please, someone shoot me in the head...

[Operaider]

sad but true.

They claim that god gives them the power to break chains, wooden bats, and tear phone books in half. Which I might believe if they weighed 110 and had the physique of a 14yr old boy. Instead they tend to look so filled with steroids that the could easily bench press my Ford Explorer.

P.S. there is a trick to tearing the phone books in half, that allows almost anyone to pull it off.

[Bikewer]

I saw these guys featured on some news show, doing their schtick in front of an audience of impressionable kids.

I'd have been more impressed if they were built more like skinny litte Jewish lads from the Middle East....

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Operaider


P.S. there is a trick to tearing the phone books in half, that allows almost anyone to pull it off.

Would it be an infringement on magician's if you told us how?

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Would it be an infringement on magician's if you told us how?

since i'm not a magician would i be able to explain it without anyone jumping down my throat?

[Dr Adequate]

I think if non-magicians already know it, it's in the public domain, it's not like a magician telling all. But I defer to any magicians reading this.

[Skep]

Originally posted by Operaider
sad but true.

They claim that god gives them the power to break chains, wooden bats, and tear phone books in half. Which I might believe if they weighed 110 and had the physique of a 14yr old boy. Instead they tend to look so filled with steroids that the could easily bench press my Ford Explorer.

P.S. there is a trick to tearing the phone books in half, that allows almost anyone to pull it off.

This vaguely reminds me of the medieval judicial dueling system where two claimants would battle to the death to decide who was lying. The idea was that the righteous one would win the battle and the one disfavored by god would loose. However, god seemed to favor seasoned fighters and big guys for some completely mysterious reason—I guess they were just much more honest than meeker, smaller people…

As for phone books, since that is also a physics based stunt with a world record attached to it, it shouldn’t be a problem to mention a few important points. The I think the most important thing is not to try to tear all of the pages at once; instead, the book is curved so the pages are fanned enabling you to tear a smaller number of pages to start. I imagine there may be other tips that could help.

I doubt those bodybuilders need to use baking as a trick since they actually are pretty strong guys. I just have to think that god would have better things to do than help people tear phonebooks in half…

[Operaider]

You are correct on how the trick is done, or atleast on how I was able to do the trick. It realy doesn't require anything else. When I was 19 and working at a resturaunt my manager bet me that he could do it. He won my 5 dollars and I payed him another 5 to learn the trick to it. If I could do it as a 19 yr old who didn't work out, I'm sure anyone can. Just make sure you get a good start, it gets harder to tear as you go.

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by Skep
This vaguely reminds me of the medieval judicial dueling system where two claimants would battle to the death to decide who was lying. The idea was that the righteous one would win the battle and the one disfavored by god would loose. However, god seemed to favor seasoned fighters and big guys for some completely mysterious reason—I guess they were just much more honest than meeker, smaller people…

As for phone books, since that is also a physics based stunt with a world record attached to it, it shouldn’t be a problem to mention a few important points. The I think the most important thing is not to try to tear all of the pages at once; instead, the book is curved so the pages are fanned enabling you to tear a smaller number of pages to start. I imagine there may be other tips that could help.

I doubt those bodybuilders need to use baking as a trick since they actually are pretty strong guys. I just have to think that god would have better things to do than help people tear phonebooks in half…

and it just so happens the world record holder was "doing it for jesus" :D

[Anathema]

I was watching some breaking/freestyle event on cable a few weeks ago, and the winner there broke around 15 concrete blocks with an elbow strike. He told the inteviewer afterward his technique was based on both "visualizing some bad things that happened in his life" and "because I'm a Christian, I use the Lord".

Apparently, God places a priority on assisting one martial artist to do something relatively insignificant in the big picture....

[crimresearch]

If it was The Power Team. or one of the other evangelical stunt troupes, then the Lord also approves heartily of steroids...

[skeptikat]

Originally posted by Anathema
I was watching some breaking/freestyle event on cable a few weeks ago, and the winner there broke around 15 concrete blocks with an elbow strike. He told the inteviewer afterward his technique was based on both "visualizing some bad things that happened in his life" and "because I'm a Christian, I use the Lord".

Apparently, God places a priority on assisting one martial artist to do something relatively insignificant in the big picture....

What do you mean, he has a great career lined up in the demolition business.:p

[Skep]

Originally posted by Anathema
I was watching some breaking/freestyle event on cable a few weeks ago, and the winner there broke around 15 concrete blocks with an elbow strike. He told the inteviewer afterward his technique was based on both "visualizing some bad things that happened in his life" and "because I'm a Christian, I use the Lord".

Apparently, God places a priority on assisting one martial artist to do something relatively insignificant in the big picture....

Nice to know that people believe that their god will help them break bits of concrete for fun but will let multitudes of people linger in the agony of disease and starvation...now that's an all loving god I can really get behind. I'm disappointed that people will credit god (or chi, for that matter) for their successes but blame themselves for their failure. I'd like to see people be more consistent on that point.

[Skep]

While it isn’t exactly martial arts, I’d like to point out that the stunt shows for god include archery trick shots, thanks to http://ontargetforchrist.com/ If trick shots with a bow and arrow don’t prove that Christ is your savior, I don’t know what does.

God is clearly very involved in the entertainment industry more so than in the keep people from suffering industry…

Should I hold my breath for Conjurors and Prestidigitators for Christ?

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by Skep
Should I hold my breath for Conjurors and Prestidigitators for Christ?

Like walking and water and turning water into wine? :D

[Operaider]

HOW TO BREAK BOARDS / BRICKS / ICE BLOCKS WITHOUT GODS HELP

This is pretty simple, and doesn't involve invoking god. I figure he's got better things to do than help you destroy timber. This is basically the same technique I taught students when I was a practicing marital artist. All of my directions are assuming that you are right handed. If some of the steps don’t make sense, I apologize. I’ve just come from the bars and typing is kinda difficult.

1. First cut the boards so that the grain runs parallel to the bricks you place it on

2. Place the boards so that they are resting on 2 bricks, about a foot and a half off the ground. Space the bricks out so that they are barely suspending the boards. Bake the boards if needed. I'm not sure if this is even necessary

3. If breaking multiple boards / bricks / whatever place two number 2 pencils between each block. This provides a spacer between the items your breaking. If you try multiple boards without a spacer be prepared to wear a cast for the next couple months

4. Position yourself so that you can throw the weight of your body towards the boards. Place your left foot to the left of the brick supporting the boards. Space your legs out, and bend you knees. This will allow you to put your entire weight on the boards at the moment of impact. At the moment you strike you’re right nee should almost be touching the ground. If the boards are being held; make sure you’re leading foot is to the side and behind of the board. Also make sure that the person holding the board has his elbows locked straight.

5. Aim your punch a couple of inches below the boards. If you aim for the boards your hand will unconsciously slow down before impact, and your hand will bounce off. It will hurt. God, will it hurt

6. Swing your striking hand in the same way you would swing an axe. Arc your hand. Starting at your right side, then over your head, and finally down through the boards on your left side. While doing this you should be shifting you weight from the back to the front.

7. Be sure to let out a loud yell when while breaking the boards. This will impress observers. Next shout "That's right, Mother F@&%er!!! Who wants a piece!?!" Then run.