Lack of respect?

[Azrael 5]

In a discussion on Ghosts UK i brought up the topic of Soham medium Derek Mcenzie and was slammed down by a member who was connected-he says-to one of the families.He claims I showed no respect and that the medium had brought great comfort.
I respect peoples opinions on here and so I ask should I continue the discussion or was he right?
Thanks

[RebeccaBradley]

When people put themselves in the public eye, they have to accept that they are automatically subject to scrutiny, assessment, and sometimes criticism. As long as you remained civil, fair in your comments, and not abusive, you had every right to express your opinion.

[RebeccaBradley]

Oops - forgot to say: the claim that this psychic "brings comfort" should not be relevant. Cigarettes "bring comfort", but I'd hardly recommend them. And if it could be argued that the psychic was bringing false comfort, why would he/she still be deserving of immunity from criticism? No, go for it, just keep cool and stay polite.

[Azrael 5]

Thanks,I appreciate your replies.Probably looking at forum ban number three.....

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Azrael 5,
Here is what Jamie Whyte has to say in his book " Bad Thoughts: a guide to clear thinking " about appeals to decorum:
" If you start to feel during a discussion that you are not so much incorrect as insensitive then you are probably dealing with a respectable bigot.
Only a thug would expose him."
Sounds good to me!

[Paul]

In total agreement with Rebecca here.

Plus, if this is the kind of thing they ban you for on Ghosts UK then you should be proud of the bans.


Lord Muck,

I don't think Whyte applies here, even if I agreed, because Azrael was not feeling incorrect and was accused point blank of insensitivity. A bigot is a bigot, respectable or not.

[Lord Muck oGentry]

Paul,
Thanks for the thought. But you've got me scratching my head in puzzlement now. Are we disagreeing or merely at cross-purposes? Like you, I agree with RebeccaBradley's comments ( although I hadn't read them both when I posted). Like you, I think that Azrael was given no good reason to think that he was in the wrong; on the contrary, he had every right to ask questions and offer criticism. The accusation of insensitivity is beside the point and a mere diversion. Like you (and Whyte), I think that a respectable bigot is still a bigot. Whyte's " Only a thug would expose him" is, of course, heavily ironical.
If I've misunderstood you, feel free to put me right! :-)
Regards.

[Paul]

I think it's more likely that i've misunderstood Whyte, having not been aware of him before your post. I found an interview with him on the New Scientist site and he seems like a very interesting man. I will probably get the book, I'm just glad he doesn't post here :)

[Grendel]

Ends do not justify means. A comforting lie remains a lie. "Is it cancer Doctor?" "No, just a little cough" (when it really is cancer) would be comforting.

There is the dimension of time to consider. Comfort experienced at a point in time may change to a realization of having been had soon after, and comfort turns to a sense of betrayal, of having one's grief used so some charlatan can award himself superhuman powers. Such victimization for personal gain is despicable and deserving of criticism at least.

Psychics know well this time component as they practice their scams -they know weeks or months shall pass and the check will have long since cleared before the mark realizes the worthlessness of their 'readings' and 'predictions'.

I say go into it firmly, well-prepared, willing to take the misplaced heat, and ready to point out that lying to people in need is the far greater 'insensitivity'. Truth will out.

[Azrael 5]

I fell foul of this particular member at Ghosts UK previously for the same reason(using the Soham case as proof against mediums)even had admin on my case! So I left them for a while(plus they all ganged up on me)they have a resident medium as well(whoopee).I didnt say anything offensive or disrespectful,it seems merely mentioning Soham is enough! He claims the affected party may see the site by accident when checking emails(this confuses me,I presume they share a house?)So its obviously not either of the Soham parents(the member has his location up)therefore I could just upset some third cousin twice removed.Odd.Anyway Ill see how it goes,as per usual they dont take kindly to skepticism and have no answers.

[Grendel]

It's a truism -make them doubt and they will hate you for it. A primary sign of bunk is the unwillingness to examine it.

[thaiboxerken]

Simply questioning the beliefs that they have such an emotional anchor to is enough to insult those folks. I wouldn't worry about it.

[Dr Adequate]

CAn't find anything on this guy. Is he making money out of it, or is it just an ego trip?

The shortest reply is that many, many people must have brought comfort to the families involved --- without lying to them.

[Azrael 5]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
CAn't find anything on this guy. Is he making money out of it, or is it just an ego trip?

The shortest reply is that many, many people must have brought comfort to the families involved --- without lying to them.
theres nothing on the net regards him,he only came to prominence during the Soham investigation(not heard of him previously)As for making money I guess so,some TV company flew him to the states recently on some murder case(there's a thread on here somewhere).He's really as low as you can go on the fake psychic scale!;)

[Ashles]

Please check out this thread:

Dennis Mckenzie is in the US now, the disgusting wretch (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46071)

This man deserves no respect whatsoever.

Please check out my links on that thread concerning his other reported involvement in a child killing.

April 2004:
Child is run over and killed, witnesses see van involved. Police have little else to go on.
Dennis starts meddling, decides from his readings that it is a car and sends the police off to investigate in that direction (screw what the actual WITNESSES saw).
Side note, sadly many children are run down by cars each year sometimes they don't catch the driver, but how many of these cases have a reward of £55,000 for help in apprehending the criminal like this case did? Dennis certainly picks the right cases.

August 2004:
Case is still unsolved. Police wanting help in the crime. Dennis? Nowhere to be found.



This man should actually be actively banned from any criminal investigations in England or the US. He appears to be nothing but a media hungry glory hound.
I hate the way he keeps getting mentioned because of his 'great help' in the Soham case.
Anyone mentioning this on any forum should be able to provide a link to a Police account of what help he gave them. If they can't then frankly they can shut up about it.
The Police followed their procedures and apprehended the suspect - Dennis had NOTHING to do with this. If he happened to guess that someone involved might have short hair and a car then, very well done. I'm sure no-one else could have done this.

Psychics are not trained grief councillors and have no way of knowing the effect their lies can have. Sure they feel great while they tell the crying parents that their little ones are at peace and can see them still and are happy on the other side, while the parents thank the medium profusely for their help.
Then they wander out of the parents life with not a backward glance or a thought for how the parents might now deal with the loss, without their special conduit to their children.


I feel Dennis is a special threat - he seems to target particularly vulnerable parents and likes the media stories.

Please check the links on the other thread.

[Azrael 5]

He seems to get a fair bit of UK media coverage.He was in one yesterday with regards the Witicha killings.Also he reared his ugly head when a French student was murdered in a London park,stating the murder weapon wasnt a hammer(she had been hit over the head).A hammer was later found,although not proven to be the weapon as yet.;)