Answering the Atheists: Why did God allow 9/11 to happen?

[1inChrist]

Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''

Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.

Also I must ask you atheists: Why do you care about 9/11? I mean to you a human is just an animal so 3,000 humans dying is the same as the thousands of insects you kill on the road when you drive your car, isn't it? Why should you care?

[Lothian]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''Atheists don’t ask that question nearly as much as the religious.
Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.I think that the religious would disagree with your answer. They would rule that god can override freewill. Surely otherwise prayers are useless.

Also I must ask you atheists: Why do you care about 9/11? I mean to you a human is just an animal so 3,000 humans dying is the same as the thousands of insects you kill on the road when you drive your car, isn't it? Why should you care? Why should atheists care. Why do the religious care surely it is 3000 people going to better place (Gee this strawman game is fun)

[Scot C. Trypal]

Weeee!

Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''

This one’s that popular?

I mean, if you’re going to take this track it’d seem best to use the recent string of life-ruining hurricanes, and skip the magical explanation of free will. Maybe it’s the free will of butterfly wings…

Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.

I don’t see how that’s an answer until we have a definition for free will. As your answer to my last question to you indicated to me, it seems it’s something you believe will be understood later, in heaven?

Also I must ask you atheists: Why do you care about 9/11? I mean to you a human is just an animal so 3,000 humans dying is the same as the thousands of insects you kill on the road when you drive your car, isn't it? Why should you care?

Oh, atheists don’t care; they don’t love fellow humans; they’re all a bunch of amoral murderous thugs. ;) Come on 1inChrist, you’re telling us you’d think of other humans as insects that you’d kill like flies if you didn’t believe in a God?

[Dogwood]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''

Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.

Also I must ask you atheists: Why do you care about 9/11? I mean to you a human is just an animal so 3,000 humans dying is the same as the thousands of insects you kill on the road when you drive your car, isn't it? Why should you care?

What a strange person.

[Psiload]

Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''

Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.

So then what is the point of prayer? If God does not intercede in the affairs of man, then what use is there in beseeching His assistance?

Also I must ask you atheists: Why do you care about 9/11? I mean to you a human is just an animal so 3,000 humans dying is the same as the thousands of insects you kill on the road when you drive your car, isn't it? Why should you care?

Because, as a human being, I place a greater value on human life than the lives of insects. I do this because I am a compassionate person, not because I fear reprisal by a higher power.

Any compassion shown by a 'true believer' is ultimately a selfish act. I, as an agnostic, am far less self-centered.

[c4ts]

How did God get away with not shutting 1 in C up? This guy does more damage to God's name than the atheists.

[McFunley]

I think you should answer the many excellent issues brought up in your Hellfire thread before moving on to arguments that nobody has made.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why do you care about 9/11? I mean to you a human is just an animal so 3,000 humans dying is the same as the thousands of insects you kill on the road when you drive your car, isn't it? Why should you care?

Why do I care? Because I lived in New York on 9/11.

Now tell me why 3,000 people not only died, but were crushed, pulverized, burned to cinders, melted - because of "Original Sin and Free Will."

To me, humans are not just an animal. They are also my family and friends. Does compassion enter your world? Or your god's?

[Psiload]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Why do I care? Because I lived in New York on 9/11.

Now tell me why 3,000 people not only died, but were crushed, pulverized, burned to cinders, melted - because of "Original Sin and Free Will."

To me, humans are not just an animal. They are also my family and friends. Does compassion enter your world? Or your god's?

1 in C has got to show compassion... or else.

Or else 1 in C's compassionate God will surely subject 1 in C to eternal torment and misery...

out of compassion, of course.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''

Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.


Wasn't it possible to create the world in such a way that both people have free will and always choose the right thing?

Moreover does this answer not mean that free will (necessarily entailing evil?) is more important (to an omnibenevolent God!) than no evil?


Originally posted by 1inChrist
Also I must ask you atheists: Why do you care about 9/11? I mean to you a human is just an animal so 3,000 humans dying is the same as the thousands of insects you kill on the road when you drive your car, isn't it? Why should you care?


I don't believe in free will at all and I would say that you hardly have a choice in the matter of whether to care for other people or not. We evolved to care (to some extend at least) so to speak.

Of course you could turn the question around and ask why theists think this (finite) life is so important. It is after all nothing compared to the eternal heavenly bliss that is yet to come ...

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Also I must ask you atheists: Why do you care about 9/11? I mean to you a human is just an animal so 3,000 humans dying is the same as the thousands of insects you kill on the road when you drive your car, isn't it? Why should you care?

Or, in a more general phrasing: "What is the atheist's basis for morality?"

If there is no afterlife, then the short time we have to live incredibly precious. It is logical to express outrage when the lives of others are taken lightly, as we are afraid of our own lives being similarly cheapened. To put a finer point on it, in the case of 9/11, lives were taken lightly by those who believed there was some higher purpose to their actions.

People who don't care about senseless murder are obviously not conducive to the survival of our species. Any societies that contained such individuals to a certain degree would soon perish. Our ancestors, on the other hand, passed on both the genetic instinctive tendency to care, as well as traditions of morality that continue to ensure our survival. We are then, biologically programmed to be horrified by immoral behavior.

[1inChrist]

So then what is the point of prayer? If God does not intercede in the affairs of man, then what use is there in beseeching His assistance?

If someone prays for something that does not conflict with Free Will. Because the person who prays has exercised her/his right to ask God to intercede. The terrorists did not pray to God to stop them.

Because, as a human being, I place a greater value on human life than the lives of insects. I do this because I am a compassionate person, not because I fear reprisal by a higher power.

Where do you think compassion and love come from?

Any compassion shown by a 'true believer' is ultimately a selfish act. I, as an agnostic, am far less self-centered.

No selfish would be rebeling against God and doing whatever I want.

[1inChrist]

Atheists don’t ask that question nearly as much as the religious.

Christians do not ask this question because they already know the answer.

I think that the religious would disagree with your answer. They would rule that god can override freewill. Surely otherwise prayers are useless.

Some religious people would disagree with me but not CHRISTIANS.

Why should atheists care. Why do the religious care surely it is 3000 people going to better place (Gee this strawman game is fun)

Not all of them. Some are consumed by the flames of the Hellfire.

[1inChrist]

This one’s that popular?

I mean, if you’re going to take this track it’d seem best to use the recent string of life-ruining hurricanes, and skip the magical explanation of free will. Maybe it’s the free will of butterfly wings…

Maybe God had a reason for the hurricanes.

I don’t see how that’s an answer until we have a definition for free will. As your answer to my last question to you indicated to me, it seems it’s something you believe will be understood later, in heaven?

We cannot understand everything. However the Saved will know ALL when we enter Heaven.

Oh, atheists don’t care; they don’t love fellow humans; they’re all a bunch of amoral murderous thugs. ;) Come on 1inChrist, you’re telling us you’d think of other humans as insects that you’d kill like flies if you didn’t believe in a God?

If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Dogwood
What a Saved person.

I corrected your post.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If someone prays for something that does not conflict with Free Will. Because the person who prays has exercised her/his right to ask God to intercede. The terrorists did not pray to God to stop them.


Nope but they quite probably prayed to him to make them successful. And what do you know, they were. As the muslim and christian gods are supposedly one and the same, looks like the muslims chose the right prophet on that occasion. Mind you the "true" musilms would no doubt claim that the 9/11 perpatrators had nothing to due with Islam. So I guess there is "another" god out there who won that day, or maybe Satan is just more powerful huh? Or maybe there is no god and some people just do evil stuff?



No selfish would be rebeling against God and doing whatever I want. [/B]
That's called free will - doing as you choose. God gave you that gift, is it not a sin to discard his gift and not use it?

[1inChrist]

Why do I care? Because I lived in New York on 9/11.

You experienced all that and you STILL reject God?

Now tell me why 3,000 people not only died, but were crushed, pulverized, burned to cinders, melted - because of "Original Sin and Free Will."

And you STILL reject God?

To me, humans are not just an animal. They are also my family and friends. Does compassion enter your world? Or your god's?

My world IS God's world.

[1inChrist]

Nope but they quite probably prayed to him to make them successful. And what do you know, they were. As the muslim and christian gods are supposedly one and the same, looks like the muslims chose the right prophet on that occasion. Mind you the "true" musilms would no doubt claim that the 9/11 perpatrators had nothing to due with Islam. So I guess there is "another" god out there who won that day, or maybe Satan is just more powerful huh? Or maybe there is no god and some people just do evil stuff?

This is silly. Allah and God are not the same. Allah is a FALSE god.

That's called free will - doing as you choose. God gave you that gift, is it not a sin to discard his gift and not use it?

If you choose to reject Him and do whatever you want you will have to pay the eternal price.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Maybe God had a reason for the hurricanes.


Would this not make the hurricanes something good?


Originally posted by 1inChrist
If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun.


So your belief in God is interfering with you free will, or what?

[Stitch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Maybe God had a reason for the hurricanes.

Just a guess, but I expect most christians (and probably believers from other faiths too) all prayed that the hurricanes would not kill anybody. As this prayer would not affect free will, why did god not listen?


We cannot understand everything.

Agreed


However the Saved will know ALL when we enter Heaven.

I think you may find yourself in for a real let down at some point in the future!


If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun. [/B]
Odly enough we don't need the fear of a supreme being to act in a moral way. We choose to for the good of mankind overall. It seems as a believer your thoughts are darker than ours. Let's just hope god doesn't start telling you to "cheat, lie, steal and kill"

[wollery]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun. You clearly have a different definition of fun from the vast majority of atheists then!

[Stitch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
This is silly. Allah and God are not the same. Allah is a FALSE god.

I thought the god was the same, but the prophets, christ and mohammed differed. Well there ya go!


If you choose to reject Him and do whatever you want you will have to pay the eternal price.
So why have free will if you can't use it?

[toddjh]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun.

In other words, you are a sociopath kept in check only by fear of punishment. Fortunately, a lot of humans are better than that and can think of many reasons to behave like compassionate adults besides the chest-beating of a big alpha male in the sky.

Jeremy

[wollery]

Originally posted by Stitch
I thought the god was the same, but the prophets, christ and mohammed differed. Well there ya go!Jesus is a prophet of Islam, number 5 in importance if I recall correctly, after Mohammed, Moses, Abraham, and someone else whose name I can't remember.

Edit to add - According to christianity Jesus wasn't a prophet but God made flesh.

[Lothian]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Christians do not ask this question because they already know the answer. You are wrong. I have stood in a church where with a vicar stating he did not know why god took the life of a 2 year old child. Certainly free will had nothing to do with it. Atheists do not ask about why god allows things to happen any more than they ask how santa delivers all his presents at the same time.

Some religious people would disagree with me but not CHRISTIANS. So CHRISTIANS believe god is not powerful enough to override free will ? Can he no longer affect anything in the world ? Which prayers work. Which ones don't work?

Not all of them. Some are consumed by the flames of the Hellfire. That does not worry you. So are you bothered by 9/11 and why if the good go to a better place and the evil get what they deserve

[Scot C. Trypal]

Maybe God had a reason for the hurricanes.

and

We cannot understand everything. However the Saved will know ALL when we enter Heaven.

This is why you are wasting your time here, seriously. This is just recreation.

You’ve picked a conclusion to be Truth, even without adequate evidence or understanding of how it can be true. Any argument or evidence presented to the contrary will be dismissed or assumed to be understandable later, in heaven, as there can be no evidence to the contrary for you, right?

If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun.

I don’t believe you. I think, sadly, you’re willing to demean your morality for the sake of your faith, but I’m near sure you’re a better person than how you predict you’d behave without a god.

I think a truly moral person is moral for morality’s sake. That’s just who they are, by design by God, nature, or whatever created them. They are not moral for fear of punishment or hope for paradise, not for pleasing a God or anyone else. They are moral because, for them, such things as compassion generosity and love are their own rewards.

[Marquis de Carabas]

If you, 1inC, had had advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, and had the power to thwart them, with no risk to yourself, would you have done so? Would you feel a moral responsibility to do so? Or would you allow them to have their free will and kill 3000 people?

This is the same situation your God was supposedly in. If He exists, He is utterly reprehensible for His failure to act, free will be damned.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by wollery
Jesus is a prophet of Islam, number 5 in importance if I recall correctly, after Mohammed, Moses, Abraham, and someone else whose name I can't remember.

Edit to add - According to christianity Jesus wasn't a prophet but God made flesh.

I wasn't too far off!! Thanks for the clarification :)

[Stitch]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
free will be damned.

It already is, because if you excercise it, you are going straight to hell apparently.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
This is the same situation your God was supposedly in. If He exists, He is utterly reprehensible for His failure to act, free will be damned.

Indeed. God doesn't seem to have any trouble smiting people in the Bible. And in modern times, he seems content to kill people with the occasional bolt of lightning or cerebral hemhorrage without worrying too much about their free will. One wonders why he didn't lift a finger to stop those terrorists from getting on the planes, when he's happy to inflict so many awful things on perfectly decent people.

What about the flood, 1inChrist? God had no problem taking extreme measures to stop the wicked then, free will be damned. Your argument doesn't even hold water in your own fantasy world.

Jeremy

[c4ts]

Allah is another word for "God." You might as well say God is a FALSE Yaweh.

[Cosmo]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''

Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.


Some excellent points so far in this thread. :)

Now, 1inC, if your God were indeed all-powerful, he could stop the terrorists without conflicting with their free will. Sounds odd, doesn't it - like it's not possible? Sure it's possible - your God can do anything, right?

Are you beginning to see how an all-powerful, all-good, all-knowing god is inherently contradictory? He simply wouldn't work.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by c4ts
Allah is another word for "God." You might as well say God is a FALSE Yaweh.

Which is like the argument I overheard about whether Gollum was a Hobbit or an Elf.

I love the blindly-religious viewpoint that equates all ethics with religion, and assumes to lack the one is to lack the other. I went to a rather religious college, and in the course of class discussions sooner or later someone would bring that up. I was once asked "What's stopping you from killing all of us right now, if you don't believe in God and hell?" I suggested that perhaps I was simply awaiting my opportunity. That seemed to make them uncomfortable for some reason.

The sort of person who thinks atheists are unethical by definition is the sort of person who as a child behaved only when the teacher was in the room.

[gnome]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun.

I think this tells a lot about you, 1inChrist... so you do good things because you fear the consequences, not because you are good in your heart?

[Psiload]

1 in C wrote:

If someone prays for something that does not conflict with Free Will. Because the person who prays has exercised her/his right to ask God to intercede. The terrorists did not pray to God to stop them.

How about the passengers on board the planes? Surely some of them must have been praying to the RIGHT God for their own safety? God refused to answer their prayers because he didn't want to interfere with the "free will" of a bunch of murdering terrorists who worship a false God?

Alrighty then... good luck with that God.

Where do you think compassion and love come from?

From a God that will subject me to perpetual torture if I dare doubt him? Is that the right answer? Because it just doesn't seem to ring true to me.

No selfish would be rebeling against God and doing whatever I want.

No, according to your God's rules, that wouldn't be selfish, it would be exceedingly stupid...

to trade eternal torment for eternal bliss just to experience a few fleeting moments of forbidden pleasure here on Earth. That would be plain dumb.

Face it... you are a horrible person who cares not for the welfare of others:

If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun.If you were not motivated by fear of punishment, and greed for reward, you would have no qualms about maltreating, or even murdering your fellow man. If that isn't the very definition of self-serving, then what is? Your evil is only held in check by your fear for YOUR own well-being.

I have no such divine motivation, yet I choose NOT to maltreat my fellow man. I am a better, kinder, more compassionate person than yourself.

This is quite obvious.

[richardm]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If someone prays for something that does not conflict with Free Will. Because the person who prays has exercised her/his right to ask God to intercede. The terrorists did not pray to God to stop them.


Yet there would be many people on the planes in question who were praying that they wouldn't be killed. And God still didn't stop the terrorists. Why not?

[Fizzer]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Christians do not ask this question because they already know the answer.

Unfortunately, you'll get a handful of different, even conflicting, answers when asking random Christians about this.

[Ladewig]

I'd love to respond to your posts 1inChrist, but I fear that I'd have to use reason and logic and I wouldn't want to expose you to those things that you refer to as tools of the devil.

Besides I'm late for a meeting of the Evolution sub-committee of the International Atheist Cabal. This week we are working on getting the U.S. postal service to issue a stamp commemorating Evolution. We are also working on having an national Evolution Day. I'm supposed to bring some bids to the committee on the costs of having bumper stickers printed that say "Monkeys are people, too."

I'm off to hell in a handbasket, see you later.

[jimmygun]

I posted a comment in 1 in c's other thread without reply. Perhaps I can ask the same thing here. When you are wisked away to heaven will it be you that goes there or a ringer to take your place?

I sense more and more from reading your posts that you might just go there intact, without the need to erase your memory. It seems to me that you are okay with the torture and death dealt out by god indiscriminantly.

How you slough off three thousand lives with no more feeling than if they were locust killed by the cold is beyond me. I am an atheist hard and true but I cannot watch video of the towers being hit nor can I forget about the lives snuffed out in a blink.

Three thousand families ripped apart, three thousand mothers crushed, fathers, sons, daughters, aunts, uncles, friends that live on in sorrow because of .....

Your answer blaming the victims is as repugnant to me as the terrorists claim to be doing god's work. When it comes time for you to depart this life I hope you have time to reflect on what you callously shrug off as the human lives that were lost. Perhaps you might find it in your humanity to ask forgiveness of those you hurt.

[Fizzer]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun.


I consider myself a Christian, yet even I see that as basically a stupid statement. Atheists are just as interested in peace and security as Christians. Most atheists would say they don't lie, cheat, and steal because it's against societal norms and inhibits the betterment of mankind.

I feel sorry for those Christians like yourself who apparantly are in morbid fear of God and his threat of eternal punishment.

When I read the Bible, I learn of a compassionate, merciful God who instead of holding the threat of eternal puinishment over non-believers, holds the promise of eternal life for his worshippers. Either eternal life, or eternal death.

[Anathema]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
This is silly. Allah and God are not the same. Allah is a FALSE god.
False? Or one who responds to the most ardent prayers (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/10/01/archive/main313163.shtml)? According to around 1 billion devout Muslims there is only One God. Please refute the entire body of Islamic apologetics point for point before claiming this again. If it's so simple as to be "silly" it shouldn't take you long to knock it down. You can start here (http://www.submission.org/).

Among all the people who believe they were praying to the historical God of Abraham on 9/11, the prayers of the box cutter wielders won out.

Edit: fixed hosed URL link

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''

Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.



SO WHAT? Why is the free will of apparent lunatics all that more important than the lives of 3000 people brutally destroyed?

Besides, "free will" is something that God has apparently chosen to give, not something that he must give (an omnipotent being cannot be compelled to do anything). Therefore, he is the one who allowed the free will, and he is the one who bears the responsibility of the actions of the people who use it. I never asked for free will (apparent free will would be more than sufficient).

Of course, the problem is that God really didn't give us free will. It was just attributed to God by his followers to try to explain how an omni-benevolant being could allow evil and tragedy to happen.

[Ipecac]

1inC, so far you've posted a half dozen threads, all of which started with simplistic, poorly reasoned, conclusions without any evidence. People here have responded (more or less) politely and pointed out countless holes in the little you've put forward as your "arguments". What's the point of this? Are you really as small-minded as you're coming across? You do know that you're not coming off too well here don't you?

[Upchurch]

Since we're answering questions from atheists:
Given that God has put forth the methods by which we may collect and maintain slaves, thus condoning slavery itself, is slavery good?

(Sorry for the slight derail, but I don't believe my question was ever answered in the other thread. If it helps, I could reword: Why does God condone slaver?)

[Robin]

1inChrist
This is silly. Allah and God are not the same. Allah is a FALSE god.

Let's get this clear. Allah is the Arabic word for God. Arabic Christians (and Maltese) also use this word for God.

It is like saying that Gott or Dieu are false gods. Different language, same concept.

[Ratman_tf]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
[B]
Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.


If god cannot make a world with free will and without evil, then he is not omnipotent and therefore not god. (The popular Christian god, anyway.)

[Ratman_tf]

Originally posted by Ipecac
1inC, so far you've posted a half dozen threads, all of which started with simplistic, poorly reasoned, conclusions without any evidence. People here have responded (more or less) politely and pointed out countless holes in the little you've put forward as your "arguments". What's the point of this? Are you really as small-minded as you're coming across? You do know that you're not coming off too well here don't you?

Small dogs like to bark a lot. ;)

[Ratman_tf]

Originally posted by 1inChrist

If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun.

So at heart you're a cheater, liar, thief and murderer, and you only pretend not to be so you can get into heaven?

Don't you think your god would KNOW THIS?

[Disco]

If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun.


Wow, you have quite a warped sense of morality. As an Atheist myself, I get a really nice feeling from treating others as I feel they would like to be treated.

Your kind of social rule makes me sick. I like being able to trust my community to do what's right-if I lived near you, I'd be paranoid beyond belief.

:con2: :con2:

MHB

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
You experienced all that and you STILL reject God?

Which "God"? Your God? Why your god?

I don't "reject" deities, I just haven't seen any evidence that any exists.

Originally posted by 1inChrist
And you STILL reject God?

Please answer the question: Why did 3,000 people not only die, but were crushed, pulverized, burned to cinders, melted - because of "Original Sin and Free Will?

Originally posted by 1inChrist
My world IS God's world.

How can you be so sure?

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If I was an atheist and evolutionist, yes. I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun.

If this was the case, then you wouldn't have anyone to speak with here. We'd all be in jail.

So, why aren't we? (In fact, there is nothing that points to atheists/agnostics being more in jail than other people)

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''

Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.


So Free Will is more powerful than God? I thought God was all powerful? Oh well.

You can attempt to justify it all you'd like, but if your God created everything, he is directly responsible for all the violence in the world.


Why do you care about 9/11? I mean to you a human is just an animal so 3,000 humans dying is the same as the thousands of insects ...


Hardly.

Because we are humans, we have more compassion for humans. We also realize that it was because of religion, because people were acting in the name of their God, killing the "infidels" and hoping to get into heaven and be rewarded, that innocent humans got killed.

[DarkMagician]

Ooh, looks like someone needs to read about the twelve officers (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/five.html).

[SezMe]

Originally posted by Stitch
Nope but they quite probably prayed to him to make them successful...snip
Oh, God, open all doors for me. Oh God who answers prayers and answers those who ask you, I am asking you for your help. I am asking you for forgiveness. I am asking you to lighten my way. I am asking you to lift the burden I feel.

Oh God, you who open all doors, please open all doors for me, open all venues for me, open all avenues for me.

God, I trust in you. God, I lay myself in your hands....

There is no God but God, I being a sinner. We are of God, and to God we return.

-- Mohamed Atta (attributed), in a five-page hand-written document found in luggage belonging to Atta which had been placed on the wrong plane, in a section of the document titled "When you enter the plane," quoted from Bob Woodward, "Hijacker Leaves Behind Sheaf Of Prayers And Instructions," Washington Post (September 28, 2001)

Now, 1inC, I'll bet you would have whole heartedly approved of that prayer before you knew it's author.

[Paul]

I wrote this last night, but decided to leave it to see how I felt this morning. Well, I feel the same.

I’m not going to try to debate, or even argue, with 1inC, because that seems to be entirely fruitless and I don’t have the patience of some of you.

Instead I will merely say my piece, beginning with my partial summation of 1inC’s position:


god is super, really, really super

god is true but also false

god does bad things but that’s OK because he has a reason

if you want to kill someone, and do not pray to be stopped, your free will override any intercessionary prayer made by the victim, even if they are a believer

you have free will but are not allowed to use it to make your own mind up about anything

christains are good, not because they are good people but because they are afraid

god can do anything, except when that would be inconvenient for 1inC’s argument

1inC can use the tools of satan and consort with necromancers, presumably because his absolute blind faith in, and adherence to, selected parts of his book make him somehow immune to the hellfire

1inC is the sole arbiter of what it means to be christian

1inC thinks that capitalising random words makes then important

1inC thinks that lying, stealing and killing are fun

1inC appears to think that god kills people to encourage us to believe in him and his benevolent ways

This post is not particularly well written or indeed well intentioned, but I am afraid I have had enough of 1inC’s arrogant, nasty, wilfully ignorant and foolish posts. On a (more) personal note I will also say that I find 1inC’s morally bankrupt attitudes disgusting.

OK, I feel a little better now.

[Flo]

Originally posted by Paul

This post is not particularly well written or indeed well intentioned, but I am afraid I have had enough of 1inC’s arrogant, nasty, wilfully ignorant and foolish posts. On a (more) personal note I will also say that I find 1inC’s morally bankrupt attitudes disgusting.

OK, I feel a little better now.


I've found out long ago that we tend to read far too much into what this kind of lunatics are writing, and are getting all worked up over not much. Calling them *wilfully* ignorant is an oxymoron, for a start ... :D

As someone has already noticed, they tend to be rather insecure about their faith, and need therefore to attack others in order to reassure themselves. Angry reactions comfort them in their victim roles, rational arguments make them believe they are taken seriously.

What they mainly need is a healthy dose of sarcasm (http://home.olemiss.edu/~djr/pages/writer/books/html/addictions/pdr-sar.html). I also suggest this (http://home.olemiss.edu/~djr/pages/writer/books/html/addictions/pdr-ont.html)

[Zep]

Folks, 1inC is just a'yankin' yer chain...

http://www.bathandmore.com/Images/Products/99-ht_sml.jpg

[TragicMonkey]

I spent my collegiate years surrounded by very religious people experiencing their first ventures into critical thought (which is definitely discouraged until you get to college, in this country). Most of them were perfectly nice people who weren't equipped to examine, analyze, or defend their lifelong beliefs. Some reacted by retreating into their corner and refusing to think, while others seized the mantel of Defender of the Faith and proceeded to inexpertly debate all and sundry. But most were willing to venture a ways into the scary realm of critical thinking, and if they didn't wind up discarding their faith at least they lobbed a few questions at it.

It's when people refuse to consider questions to their faith that faith becomes dangerous. 1inC may seem like a fanatic relative to an atheist perspective, but really by appearing here at all he's proven he's not completely rigid in his thought.

(edited to add: I want to say "mantle", but isn't that a layer of the Earth? One's the thing over the fireplace, the other's a cloak, and the third is the region between core and crust. Damn, I shall have to look that up or it will bother me all day.)

(edited again: Interesting. I tried three online dictionaries, and they all say that "mantle" is for all three definitions, and "mantel" is just an alternate spelling for the fireplace definition. I could have sworn there was a rule about it, but I guess not.)

[Zep]

TM, your argument would be valid IF 1inC didn't keep on chucking the same old holy hand-grenades into the forum to try to stir us up. Myself, I've learned to treat them for what they are - damp squibs.

[MRC_Hans]

1inC tries to do "hit and run" trolling here. Actually, it turns out to be "**** and run" :rolleyes:. With friends like that, God needs no enemies.

Hans

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
1inC tries to do "hit and run" trolling here. Actually, it turns out to be "s**t and run" :rolleyes:. With friends like that, God needs no enemies.

Hans


True. I doubt that 1inChrist hears much of anything said here. On the other hand, there may be lurkers on the board that find the responses posted to 1inChrist's threads useful.

[Brahe]

Originally posted by DarkMagician
Ooh, looks like someone needs to read about the twelve officers (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/five.html). I hadn't seen that piece before, and found it excellent. It's interesting in that the article isn't a rebuttal of the various solutions to the problem of evil so much as a demonstration that such excuses wouldn't fly if given by humans, let alone a being supposedly held to higher standards. Thanks, DarkMagician.

It's unfortunate, but I doubt that 1inChrist could read such an article even if he clicked on the link. The poor man has a case of Morton's Demon (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb02.html) that seems to apply not only to biology, but philosophy and reason in general.

[Brahe]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
1inC tries to do "hit and run" trolling here. Actually, it turns out to be "s**t and run" :rolleyes:. With friends like that, God needs no enemies.I'm in agreement. Someone who starts threads claiming that, among other things, *logic* is the tool of the devil just isn't someone whom one can hold a meaningful discussion with. As the old saying goes, one can't reason a person out of a position he didn't reason himself in to.

Incidentally, who's more destructive to the Christian religion? A dozen competent non-Christian philosophers making valid arguments against Christianity, or one Christian apologist using terrible arguments to bolster the faith?

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''

Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.

Also I must ask you atheists: Why do you care about 9/11? I mean to you a human is just an animal so 3,000 humans dying is the same as the thousands of insects you kill on the road when you drive your car, isn't it? Why should you care?

A completely incorrect reading of Scripture...God has already dealt with the issue of Original Sin in a manner that any Christian versed in the Bible can explain to you, 1inChrist...
(Hint -starts with a 'J' ).

Don't assume that just because you are posting on a skeptic's board that everyone here is as unfamiliar with Christian doctrine as you seem to be.

As far as 'allowing' something to happen, you don't understand the purported transendence and immanence of God...he isn't helpess in the face of free will, as (again) a cursory reading of Scripture would have taught you.

No, if you want to accept Biblical interpretations of the interaction between God and mankind, events such as 9/11 are most properly seen for what they are...a test...an opportunity for God's people to show that they are at long last coming into compliance with God's plan for them.

It is a test that people have always failed before, leading to various OT punishments, but at least those who ascribe to the Bible will recognize it as such, and not make the infidel's mistake of attributing petty revenge, and impotence to a deity, like 1inChrist has.

If you want to be a Xtian troll, at least do a little freakin' homework on the subject.
:rolleyes:

[Giz]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''

Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.



What about the free will of the 3000 people in the WTC? They didn't have a choice, but I guess your God only grants free will to terrorists, serial killers, rapists and the like....

[crimresearch]

And who do we all know that would allow faithless non-Christian terrorists to blow up a building full of Amurrican Christians?


Could it be.....



S A T A N ???


Well!! Aren't we special Mister NoneinChrist? Coming in here with your devil friend pretending to be a real Xtian. Hmmmphh!!

:p :p :p

[EdipisReks]

i think a better question than "why did god let 9/11 happen" is "why did got end the syndication of the Snorks."

[c4ts]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Which is like the argument I overheard about whether Gollum was a Hobbit or an Elf.

I love the blindly-religious viewpoint that equates all ethics with religion, and assumes to lack the one is to lack the other. I went to a rather religious college, and in the course of class discussions sooner or later someone would bring that up. I was once asked "What's stopping you from killing all of us right now, if you don't believe in God and hell?" I suggested that perhaps I was simply awaiting my opportunity. That seemed to make them uncomfortable for some reason.

The sort of person who thinks atheists are unethical by definition is the sort of person who as a child behaved only when the teacher was in the room.

Actually I was refering to Dr. Morris's botched archaelogical expedition, where a pre-Islamic deity was mistransliterated as something that sounded kind of like "Allah." Certain Christians jumped to conclusions, and spread his findings among fundamentalist communities, attempting to link the god with the flag of Constantinople, which never changed since pre-Byzantine rule and ended up as the flag for the Ottomon Empire, which eventually became the unofficial symbol of Islam. Since there was a moon on the flag, every fundamentalist familiar with a certain cartoonist and his like-minded pundits is trained to point at this flag flying over a mosque and shout things like "Moon Goddess!" and "false God!" It's funny how quickly misinformation can spread among the uneducated.

[Bruce]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I would cheat, lie, steal and kill. Why not? There is no God. May as well have some fun. [/B]

Pro 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD

HA! Take that! Guess you'll be burning in hell with the rest of us.:p

[monkboon]

Originally posted by Paul
...On a (more) personal note I will also say that I find 1inC’s morally bankrupt attitudes disgusting.

Will a former lurker be permitted a heartfelt Amen here?

Sorry, not much more to add, really, but I found long ago that trying to explain to an xian why I'm an atheist, happy about it, and not the least bit worried, thank you very much, is like pissing up a rope, only not as fulfilling. Paul's closing comment struck an harmonious chord, and I felt he should know.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Giz
What about the free will of the 3000 people in the WTC? They didn't have a choice, but I guess your God only grants free will to terrorists, serial killers, rapists and the like....

They used their free will to be in New York City that day. They chose to be on the streets, in the planes and in the buildings.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Bruce
Pro 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD

HA! Take that! Guess you'll be burning in hell with the rest of us.:p

Nope I have already repented. This is the true Glory of the Lord. When you Sin you can repent to Him and He forgives you.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by crimresearch
And who do we all know that would allow faithless non-Christian terrorists to blow up a building full of Amurrican Christians?


Could it be.....



S A T A N ???


Well!! Aren't we special Mister NoneinChrist? Coming in here with your devil friend pretending to be a real Xtian. Hmmmphh!!

:p :p :p

What are you talking about?! I have come to call be Beast out! To reveal his nature! To expose his secrets!

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
1inC tries to do "hit and run" trolling here. Actually, it turns out to be "(censored) (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870531930#rule8) and run" :rolleyes:. With friends like that, God needs no enemies.

Hans

Stop with the troll nonsense. I have been returning to threads and debating you people. I have pointed out condradictions in science. You just ignore my points and pick on me.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by jzs


So Free Will is more powerful than God? I thought God was all powerful? Oh well.

No nothing is more powerful than God but God's gift to us is Free Will.

You can attempt to justify it all you'd like, but if your God created everything, he is directly responsible for all the violence in the world.

No. You see God can do anything so He created a system (free will) that would control itself and lead itself down any number of directions. God is simply watching the results, not influencing them.

Hardly.

Because we are humans, we have more compassion for humans. We also realize that it was because of religion, because people were acting in the name of their God, killing the "infidels" and hoping to get into heaven and be rewarded, that innocent humans got killed.

Do you admit that in the big picture of the universe human's are just as important as a beetle?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
You just ignore my points

I am not ignoring you. You, OTOH, seem to ignore my questions.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
I am not ignoring you. You, OTOH, seem to ignore my questions.

Why do you devote your time to a anti-God website? Haven't you hurt God enough by rejecting the gift His Son died to give you? Do you really need to further preach against Him?

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Nope I have already repented. This is the true Glory of the Lord. When you Sin you can repent to Him and He forgives you.

You really are pretending that you don't know anything about Christianity aren't you?

Repenting of your sins to God is NOT the requirement that will save you from burning in hell, according to the Bible that you claim to be supporting. Many have repented of their sins to God and perished.

One more time, "starts with a 'J'...."

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by crimresearch
You really are pretending that you don't know anything about Christianity aren't you?

Repenting of your sins to God is NOT the requirement that will save you from burning in hell, according to the Bible that you claim to be supporting. Many have repented of their sins to God and perished.

One more time, "starts with a 'J'...."

What is with you? In my above post I was speaking of Jesus! Who do you think the Lord is? LORD JESUS CHRIST!

[Lord Emsworth]

1inChrist, is it possible for God to give free will in such a way that only good things are chosen?

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
...
LORD JESUS CHRIST!


My reaction to most of your posts exactly. Except I'd probably add

"ON A POGO STICK!!"

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
God is simply watching the results, not influencing them.

So why pray?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why do you devote your time to a anti-God website? Haven't you hurt God enough by rejecting the gift His Son died to give you? Do you really need to further preach against Him?

Here's how it works. I answer your questions, you answer mine. Fair, eh?

I don't "devote" my time to an "anti-God" website. This is not such a website.

I don't know if I have "hurt" God, or any other deity. How do you know how God thinks?

I don't "preach" against any deity.

Here are my questions:

Which "God" are you talking about? Your God? Why your god?

Why did 3,000 people not only die, but were crushed, pulverized, burned to cinders, melted - because of "Original Sin and Free Will?

How can you be so sure that your world is God's world?

Why aren't we in jail, if we are "atheists" and would therefore cheat, lie, steal and kill?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Why aren't we in jail, if we are "atheists" and would therefore cheat, lie, steal and kill?

Careful there, Claus, you might be giving Ashcroft ideas....

[Morwen]

Claus is right. I'm watching this thread from afar and it's fairly obvious that you, 1inChrist, is the one doing the ignoring. The few questions you don't ignore you answer with non-sequiturs, and you leave untouched the most interesting points posed to you.

No surprise there, of course. Just thought I'd point it out. It probably escaped your limited attention span.

Oh, and you're not doing any good here. Just so you know.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Why aren't we in jail, if we are "atheists" and would therefore cheat, lie, steal and kill?
Well, I can't speak for all atheists, but in my case, the answer is simply I'm that damned sneaky. :D

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth
1inChrist, is it possible for God to give free will in such a way that only good things are chosen?



God can do anything.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
God can do anything.

Did you not hear the *splat* when you walked into that logical wall? Care to try again, and to reason it out this time?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
God can do anything.
Man, I almost feel bad for you, 1inC. You walked straight into this one, eyes open and all. Get that Shield of Faith nice and shiny.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
God can do anything.


Is this a "yes" to this question: Is it possible for God to give free will in such a way that only good things are chosen?

Merely asking for confimation here. Next question:

Why didn't he do it then?

[monkboon]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
God can do anything.

Oh, yeah? Let's see him cure AIDS, or do something really useful, like removing Jar Jar from Episode 1.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
Careful there, Claus, you might be giving Ashcroft ideas....

I'm not living in the US... ;)

[Anathema]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
I'm not living in the US... ;)
Ha! You think that will save you?

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
What is with you? In my above post I was speaking of Jesus! Who do you think the Lord is? LORD JESUS CHRIST!

No, heathen infidel, according to Scripture, Jesus is the Savior, God is his father, the Creator... You referred to God in terms of original sin and free will...Jesus didn't create that, God did.

And that wasn't the 'J' I was referring to..try reading Scripture sometime...

If you really do wish to become a Christian why aren't you studying the Bible, or getting someone who believes to explain the tenets of their faith to you, instead of trolling here with untrue statements about the Bible, and having atheists explain Christian doctrine to you?

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by monkboon
Oh, yeah? Let's see him cure AIDS, or do something really useful, like removing Jar Jar from Episode 1.

god gave us the phantom edit?!?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
God can do anything.

Yet he chose to give us free will in such a way that the vast majority of us will be tortured for eternity for utilizing that free will.

Interesting God you worship....

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
I'm not living in the US... ;)

At least not until Bush decides to "liberate" Denmark....

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
So why pray?

He can influence things if you exercise you Free Will and call on Him.

[Anathema]

Still squirming, eh? Please start addressing my unanswered questions..

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Anathema
Ha! You think that will save you?

Good point.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
[B]Here's how it works. I answer your questions, you answer mine. Fair, eh?

Ok.

I don't "devote" my time to an "anti-God" website. This is not such a website.

I'm talking about www.skepticreport.com

I don't know if I have "hurt" God, or any other deity. How do you know how God thinks?

You have hurt Him by turning away and being a rebel.

I don't "preach" against any deity.

There is a world of difference between Jehovah/Jesus and other dieties. Stop trying to compare them!

Here are my questions:

Which "God" are you talking about? Your God? Why your god?

The God's whose Word is contained in the Holy Bible.

Why did 3,000 people not only die, but were crushed, pulverized, burned to cinders, melted - because of "Original Sin and Free Will?

Because man has chosen evil.

How can you be so sure that your world is God's world?

The Holy Spirit tells me.

Why aren't we in jail, if we are "atheists" and would therefore cheat, lie, steal and kill?

Maybe you know He is watching so you don't do those things. Also you COULD be doing them and getting away with it. Atheists are usually clever (as all Satan's agents are) so I wouldn't doubt you'd be able to murder people and get away with it. I've also read articles about how atheists specifically steal and cheat the system since they do not fear a higher authority.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by crimresearch
No, heathen infidel, according to Scripture, Jesus is the Savior, God is his father, the Creator... You referred to God in terms of original sin and free will...Jesus didn't create that, God did.

And that wasn't the 'J' I was referring to..try reading Scripture sometime...

If you really do wish to become a Christian why aren't you studying the Bible, or getting someone who believes to explain the tenets of their faith to you, instead of trolling here with untrue statements about the Bible, and having atheists explain Christian doctrine to you?

I know the Bible. Your interpretation of everything is wrong.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
He can influence things if you exercise you Free Will and call on Him.
So, the Almighty Creator of Everything, with the Perfect Universal Plan, may decide to intervene, against His normal policy, on a whim, if I ask Him nicely?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist

I've also read articles about how atheists specifically steal and cheat the system since they do not fear a higher authority.

Since all you have is anectdotes (unles you can show me some reliable data that shows atheists to be more dishonest over all, as opposed to some stories of particualr atheists being dishonest), I'll counter with my own anectdote.

I have been cheated and lied to by Christians more times than I can count. As far as I know, I have never been cheated or lied to by an atheist.

You may think my anecdote means nothing. If so, you are correct, but then neither does yours.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I know the Bible. Your interpretation of everything is wrong.

So you claim but you give nothing to back up that claim. You can't just say "You're wrong" if you want to be taken seriously here. You need to provide a REASON why the person is wrong.

"Because I say so" isn't a reason, by the by.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Maybe you know He is watching so you don't do those things. Also you COULD be doing them and getting away with it. Atheists are usually clever (as all Satan's agents are)
This helps to tell them apart from God's agents.
so I wouldn't doubt you'd be able to murder people and get away with it. I've also read articles about how atheists specifically steal and cheat the system since they do not fear a higher authority.
I've read articles about vampire babies. What's your point?

[The GM]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Ok.


Maybe you know He is watching so you don't do those things. Also you COULD be doing them and getting away with it. Atheists are usually clever (as all Satan's agents are) so I wouldn't doubt you'd be able to murder people and get away with it. I've also read articles about how atheists specifically steal and cheat the system since they do not fear a higher authority.

I think you oversimplify the nature of people and grossly stereotype what an atheist is or is not. I've noted that this sort of thing happens a lot when the religious and non religious mix, I've heard someone call this kind of miscommunication 'talking through someone'.
Now, I may not agree w/ Claus philosophically, but that's a far cry from assuming he's a murdering bastard w/out any sort of proof whatsoever. Sorta like I may not agree w/ you philosophically, but it would be unfair for me to assume that you perpetuate crimes like bombing abortion clinics (as a random example.)

Why, oh why do you not take this opportunity to ask some of these people *why* they believe what they do instead of *assuming* you already know the answer?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
So, the Almighty Creator of Everything, with the Perfect Universal Plan, may decide to intervene, against His normal policy, on a whim, if I ask Him nicely?

No. God's ''policy'' is every human has Free Will. If someone prays for something they are exercising their Free Will.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I know the Bible. Your interpretation of everything is wrong.

LOL!!! You are so busted...John 3:16 (the 'J' I've been telling you to look for) is the 'wrong interpretation' for redemption?
I'm sure you'll be able to back THAT one up with some expert citations, won't you?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Next time you want to troll, do a little homework on whatever it is you are trying to pass yourself off as.

And if you really do think you are a Christian, go back and tell all your friends that the atheists and skeptics had to school you on *your* basic Scripture.

But my bet is on the trolling sockpuppet theory...no one who cared could be so ignorant of the Bible that they wouldn't know the most basic tenet of all Xtianity.

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
No. God's ''policy'' is every human has Free Will. If someone prays for something they are exercising their Free Will.

How is that not interfering then?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
[B]This helps to tell them apart from God's agents.

:mad:

I've read articles about vampire babies. What's your point?

You believe in vampires but reject God? Where is your justification for this?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
No. God's ''policy'' is every human has Free Will. If someone prays for something they are exercising their Free Will.
So what factors does God consider when deciding whether to grant a prayer request?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth
Is this a "yes" to this question: Is it possible for God to give free will in such a way that only good things are chosen?

Merely asking for confimation here. Next question:

Why didn't he do it then?



Yes since He can do anything.

[Anathema]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I know the Bible. Your interpretation of everything is wrong.
So then please, Please, PLEASE finally address my bible question. Why does God, in Isaiah 1:18 insist:

"Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD
The bulk of the chapter refers to humans who have rebelled, and God is instructing them on how their sins may be forgiven --- by "reasoning together". Now, God doesn't provide much of an argument to reason with/against, but he certainly doesn't portray reason as a tool of the Beast, as you insist.

Reconcile your position.

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Yes since He can do anything.

Answer the second question in what you quoted.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I'm talking about www.skepticreport.com

Ah. In what way is it "anti-God"? I have authors who believe in God.

Originally posted by 1inChrist
You have hurt Him by turning away and being a rebel.

How can I turn away from something I haven't seen evidence of?

Originally posted by 1inChrist
There is a world of difference between Jehovah/Jesus and other dieties. Stop trying to compare them!

I am not comparing them. I am asking why we should believe in your god and not others.

Originally posted by 1inChrist
The God's whose Word is contained in the Holy Bible.

But god's word is not contained in the bible. It is a collection (chosen rather politically) of religious books, and certainly not written by god. They often contradict each other.

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Because man has chosen evil.

Has he? I haven't. I don't think you have a right to say that the 3,000 people had either.

Originally posted by 1inChrist
The Holy Spirit tells me.

Oh, you talk to the HS? I am sure you will share with us some heavenly thoughts. Can you ask the HS questions?

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Maybe you know He is watching so you don't do those things.

Nope. I don't believe that he exists, so I cannot fear him.

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Also you COULD be doing them and getting away with it.

Perhaps, though not in Denmark. Killers are generally caught.

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Atheists are usually clever (as all Satan's agents are) so I wouldn't doubt you'd be able to murder people and get away with it.

Not here. And I don't like the sight of blood.

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I've also read articles about how atheists specifically steal and cheat the system since they do not fear a higher authority.

Do you have any scientific studies that show how atheist specifically steal and cheat the system?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
:mad:
:rub: I'm sorry. That was just too good to pass up. You really shouldn't go around placing temptations in my way. Not very Christian of you.
You believe in vampires but reject God? Where is your justification for this?
I think I'm going to have to start leaning toward the sockpuppet theory. There is no way you can be so cataclysmically dense to think I said anywhere that I believed in vampires.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
No. God's ''policy'' is every human has Free Will. If someone prays for something they are exercising their Free Will.

But if he intervenes, he is affecting someone ELSES freewill. If my mother were very religious but dying of cancer, and I prayed to God to cure her, and he did, would he not be undercutting her free will if she wanted to die and go to heaven.

What happens when two people ask God for mutually excludive things? One of them is having there free will undercut by the other.


Of course these logical dillemas are easily explained if there is no God to begin with....

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by crimresearch
LOL!!! You are so busted...John 3:16 (the 'J' I've been telling you to look for) is the 'wrong interpretation' for redemption?
I'm sure you'll be able to back THAT one up with some expert citations, won't you?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

What are you on about? There are many J's stop trying to play games with me.

Next time you want to troll, do a little homework on whatever it is you are trying to pass yourself off as.

What is your problem? I am not a troll.

And if you really do think you are a Christian, go back and tell all your friends that the atheists and skeptics had to school you on *your* basic Scripture.

I know people like you. Atheist liberals who like to take the Bible out of context and put their own meaning on it based on what atheist biblical scholars say.

But my bet is on the trolling sockpuppet theory...no one who cared could be so ignorant of the Bible that they wouldn't know the most basic tenet of all Xtianity.

I'M NOT A TROLLING SOCK PUPPET!

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I've also read articles about how atheists specifically steal and cheat the system since they do not fear a higher authority. I've read articles where Chrisitians lie, cheat, steal, etc. For example, people like Jim Bakker, Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart, and Catholic priests, off the top of my head. I could probably come up with more with a simple google search.

They supposedly fear a higher authority and yet also commit similar crimes. One might be led conclude that morality isn't necessarily dependent on belief in a higher authority....

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
:rub: I'm sorry. That was just too good to pass up. You really shouldn't go around placing temptations in my way. Not very Christian of you.

Temptations? I just used an emotion thingy to show you I didn't like your comment.

I think I'm going to have to start leaning toward the sockpuppet theory. There is no way you can be so cataclysmically dense to think I said anywhere that I believed in vampires.

FOR THE LAST TIME I AM NOT A SOCK PUPPET OF ANYBODIES! You said you read an article about vampire babies and this implied you believed it. Also I read that scientists have found fossils of supposed vampires. I thought perhaps you do believe in vampires since some scientists found them. Excuse me if I can't read minds.

[The GM]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I know people like you. Atheist liberals who like to take the Bible out of context and put their own meaning on it based on what atheist biblical scholars say.


Again w/ the gross oversimplification of people and general stereotypes. Why?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
But if he intervenes, he is affecting someone ELSES freewill. If my mother were very religious but dying of cancer, and I prayed to God to cure her, and he did, would he not be undercutting her free will if she wanted to die and go to heaven.

What happens when two people ask God for mutually excludive things? One of them is having there free will undercut by the other.

Of course these logical dillemas are easily explained if there is no God to begin with....

If God interfers with someone else's life because of a prayer that means it's still Free Will. If someone prays for you God can interfer with your life and still hold up His gift of Free Will.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
:mad:
Nice one, Carabas! :D

Originally posted by 1inChrist
:You believe in vampires but reject God? Where is your justification for this?

Um, not all of us believe everything we read- or in your case, "hear about from others".

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist

I'M NOT A TROLLING SOCK PUPPET!

If not then youa re the most pathetically dense individual I have ever seen. Take for example your conclusion that MDC believes in vampires from his comment that he read about them.

So take your pick, 'troll' or 'utter moron', I see no third alternative.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If God interfers with someone else's life because of a prayer that means it's still Free Will. If someone prays for you God can interfer with your life and still hold up His gift of Free Will.

I don't see how. Let's take my hypothetical dying religious mother again for example. She wants to die and move on to a better place, God has chosen to keep her alive as a result of My prayers. Her desires, her wishes and her prayers had naught to do with it. How can anyone say she ahd any free will in the matter

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Temptations? I just used an emotion thingy to show you I didn't like your comment.
My aim must be off. I really try to throw these points low enough for you to grasp them; I just never seem to quite pull it off.

The temptation I referred to was your...oh, sod it. Everyone else got the joke... ask one of them.

FOR THE LAST TIME I AM NOT A SOCK PUPPET OF ANYBODIES!
Then you admit to being cataclysmically dense?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
You believe in vampires but reject God? Where is your justification for this? For the nuance-challenged, he was saying that you can find studies/articles that back almost any idea. It is then that you must look at who is writing those studies/articles, what their credentials are, and what their motivations might be.

An article in the National Inquirer about vampire babies holds very little weight just like an article about evolution from "Dr. Dino" does.

He doesn't believe in vampires. He is saying, in short, don't believe everything you read.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by a trolling sockpuppet
I'M NOT A TROLLING SOCK PUPPET!

Only a true trolling sockpuppet would deny his trolling-sockpuppetness.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
If not then youa re the most pathetically dense individual I have ever seen. Take for example your conclusion that MDC believes in vampires from his comment that he read about them.

So take yout pick, 'troll' or 'utter moron', I see no third alternative.

See. The fact that you call me a moron proves you are living in a closed minded world. You believe just because I don't believe in your ideas that I'm stupid.

My argument all along has been this:

You cannot question God as He has His reasons. You must start with the Word and build everything around that. Anything outside of the Words of the Bible is infested by Evil from the Beast. If you look to material things for spiritual comfort you will only let Satan into your heart. He will fill you with ''intellect'' which is only a smoke screen to keep Jesus out of your heart.

Calling me stupid only proves that I am right.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
He will fill you with ''intellect'' which is only a smoke screen to keep Jesus out of your heart.

Calling me stupid only proves that I am right.

:D

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
<SNIP>I know people like you. Atheist liberals who like to take the Bible out of context and put their own meaning on it based on what atheist biblical scholars say.

'Atheist biblical scholars' like every ordained minister in every Christian denomination?

But hey, feel free to show us the error of our ways by posting links or verifiable quotes from 'scholars' who agree with you that redemption and John 3:16 *aren't* related in the manner everyone else thinks.
:rolleyes:

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
See. The fact that you call me a moron proves you are living in a closed minded world. You believe just because I don't believe in your ideas that I'm stupid.

My argument all along has been this:

You cannot question God as He has His reasons. You must start with the Word and build everything around that. Anything outside of the Words of the Bible is infested by Evil from the Beast. If you look to material things for spiritual comfort you will only let Satan into your heart. He will fill you with ''intellect'' which is only a smoke screen to keep Jesus out of your heart.

Calling me stupid only proves that I am right.

No. I did not call you a moron because you don't beleive in my ideas. Lots of very smart people don't agree with some or all of my ideas. I called you a moron because yo took a comment that someone had read about vampires to mean to mean that that person belived in vampires. I don't see how a person could come to that conclusion unless they were a moron or a troll. You calim that you are not a troll so what does that leave?

[The GM]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
See. The fact that you call me a moron proves you are living in a closed minded world. You believe just because I don't believe in your ideas that I'm stupid.


Aren't you doing the same? I believe that's called hypocricy.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by The GM
Aren't you doing the same? I believe that's called hypocricy.

Yes you atheists are stupid as you don't accept Him as your Savior but your smart as in material smart. I'm sure most of you could tell me the square root of my house and the psychology behind me being a Christian. In that sense I have found atheists are smart but in spiritual Truth you are as dumb as a doorknob.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
"...You cannot question God as He has His reasons. You must start with the Word and build everything around that.".

Nice try...you are the one who has repeatedly and publicly rejected the Word, denied Jesus, and refuted John 3:16, and you are the one questioning God, portraying Him as helpless against the actions of non-Christian terrorists and free will.

So it would seem that you either follow a Christian doctrine that only exists in your head (given your inability to show sources that agree with your rejection of John 3:16), or you are an ill-prepared troll (whether by design, or no).

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by crimresearch
Nice try...you are the one who has repeatedly and publicly rejected the Word, denied Jesus, and refuted John 3:16, and you are the one questioning God, portraying Him as helpless against the actions of non-Christian terrorists and free will.

So it would seem that you either follow a Christian doctrine that only exists in your head (given your inability to show sources that agree with your rejection of John 3:16), or you are an ill-prepared troll (whether by design, or no).

What is it I believe that you don't think Scripture supports?

Does Scripture not support eternal Salvation?

Hellfire?
Heaven?

Yes it does. Everything I have said has been perfectly in line with Scripture unless you take it out of context.

[The GM]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Yes you atheists are stupid as you don't accept Him as your Savior but your smart as in material smart. I'm sure most of you could tell me the square root of my house and the psychology behind me being a Christian. In that sense I have found atheists are smart but in spiritual Truth you are as dumb as a doorknob.

Again w/ the assumptions! You have no clue if I'm an atheist or not! But I bet a bunch of people in this thread know what I am because they took the time to *listen to me* and find out where I come from. They questioned, commented, learned!
Wowzers.

So again, why don't you ask these people why they believe what they believe instead of assuming you already have the answers?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by The GM
Again w/ the assumptions! You have no clue if I'm an atheist or not! But I bet a bunch of people in this thread know what I am because they took the time to *listen to me* and find out where I come from. They questioned, commented, learned!
Wowzers.

So again, why don't you ask these people why they believe what they believe instead of assuming you already have the answers?

You have to be an atheist. Why else would you speak so harshly against your Lord and Master? I am willing to bet that I am the only Christian on this website.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Yes you atheists are stupid as you don't accept Him as your Savior but your smart as in material smart. I'm sure most of you could tell me the square root of my house and the psychology behind me being a Christian. In that sense I have found atheists are smart but in spiritual Truth you are as dumb as a doorknob.

So 'smart' and 'stupid' mean what you want them to mean. "smart in spiritual truth'='Agrees with 1in Christ' and 'dumb as a doorknob' (presumably in spiritual truth)='disagrees with 1inChrist'. Very convenient definitions.

Someone in another thread (I don't remember who or which) used the phrase 'creeping Humpty-Dumptyism". I get a definate sense of that here.

BTW, since I assume that you don't live in a number, I doubt very much that your house has a squre root.

[The GM]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
You have to be an atheist. Why else would you speak so harshly against your Lord and Master? I am willing to bet that I am the only Christian on this website.

Yep, he's a troll.
I grew up a Christian, I associate with Christians, and you sir are no Christian.

Edit: I'm bowing out of this discussion now. Discussion with someone who is trying to discredit any faith by pretending to be an oversimplified moron of that faith gains no respect from me.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Yes you atheists are stupid as you don't accept Him as your Savior but your smart as in material smart. I'm sure most of you could tell me the square root of my house and the psychology behind me being a Christian. In that sense I have found atheists are smart but in spiritual Truth you are as dumb as a doorknob.
Spiritually dumb? Let me tell you a little something about spirituality. I wake up every morning more awestruck by the world I inhabit than the day before. Despite all the hardship and woe, it's a breath-takingly wonderful world we inhabit. I revel daily in the world around me. I marvel at the accomplishments we've made. I am struck dumb often by the depths of love and kindness we are capable of.

You inhabit this same world with me, and you behold many similar wonders, I'd wager. Yet you are satisfied to chalk it all up to some thousands-year-old fairy tales. If that slakes your spiritual thirst, you have a weak spirit indeed. I choose not to ignore the mysteries, but to question them, to question and to study and to learn. That is my spirituality. Yours is dead.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I'm sure most of you could tell me the square root of my houseI can honestly say that I can not calculate the square root of your or anyone's house and I have a degree in physics. :(
In that sense I have found atheists are smart but in spiritual Truth you are as dumb as a doorknob. The thing about education is that it not only imparts facts to the learner but it also teaches skills and strategies for thinking. While facts have limited use outside of the field they come from, good thinking skills are applicable to a wide range of subjects.

As such, I think you'll find that a great many of us on this board tend to be well versed in a wide variety of religious scripture and spiritual practices. The difference, I think, between skeptics and believers is not a difference of knowledge, but a difference of faith. Believers are content to accept their particular religious dogma without questioning its foundation (and I'm using "dogma" in the literal sense, not the negative connotation it tends to have). Skeptics, on the other hand, tend to question everything.

So, it really doesn't have to do with intellegence so much as a need to ask questions.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
What is it I believe that you don't think Scripture supports?

Does Scripture not support eternal Salvation?

Hellfire?
Heaven?

Yes it does. Everything I have said has been perfectly in line with Scripture unless you take it out of context.

Not necessarily. I have heard several Christians espouse the theory that the 'lake of fire' mentioned in the Bible is strictly for Satan and the angels who rebelled against him and that people who die 'in their sins' will just stay dead and not be ressurected. And they can back it up too.

I can already anticipate your response, they are not true Christians....

'Creeping humpty-Dumptyism' again.

[control_zape]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I've also read articles about how atheists specifically steal and cheat the system since they do not fear a higher authority.

Curious. I've also read articles about how christians (well, at least one) steal & cheat.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind.html

and don't forget the appendix

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind-decision.html

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by The GM
Yep, he's a troll.
I grew up a Christian, I associate with Christians, and you sir are no Christian.

Whatever helps you reject the Truth I guess. Does God really put that much fear into your heart? If so you really need to come to Hi now.

Edit: I'm bowing out of this discussion now. Discussion with someone who is trying to discredit any faith by pretending to be an oversimplified moron of that faith gains no respect from me.

Maybe you need to learn about your Faith. Hell is real. Hell is so real that Jesus died to Save you from it. Don't let your liberal pastor tell you anything different.

[Tony]

Originally posted by 1inChrist

You cannot question God as He has His reasons.


Translation: God is above the notions of justice he imposes onto us.

You're pretty much admitting that your god is a ruthless and maniacal dictator.

Anything outside of the Words of the Bible is infested by Evil from the Beast.

So the US constitution and the american ideal is evil from the beast?

He will fill you with ''intellect'' which is only a smoke screen to keep Jesus out of your heart.

You admit that "Satan" uses logic and education and "Jesus" uses ignorance?

If your god was really the lover of humanity you claim him to be, it seems that the reverse would be true.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
Not necessarily. I have heard several Christians espouse the theory that the 'lake of fire' mentioned in the Bible is strictly for Satan and the angels who rebelled against him and that people who die 'in their sins' will just stay dead and not be ressurected. And they can back it up too.

I can already anticipate your response, they are not true Christians....

'Creeping humpty-Dumptyism' again.

They aren't Christians. They are influenced by Satan. Satan will mix Truth with lies (like the unsaved are not tortured for eternity). He does this so you he can run his trickery right past you.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Hell is real. Hell is so real that Jesus died to Save you from it. Don't let your liberal pastor tell you anything different.

Prove it. It's that simple, just prove it.

Oh and why would her pastors politcs have anything to do with the discussion?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
Prove it. It's that simple, just prove it.

Oh and why would her pastors politcs have anything to do with the discussion?
Only baby-killing, terrorist-coddling leftists would deny the existence of Hell.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
They aren't Christians. They are influenced by Satan. Satan will mix Truth with lies (like the unsaved are not tortured for eternity). He does this so you he can run his trickery right past you.

So to recap:

'Christian'='Agrees with 1inChrist'

Again, that's a very convenient definition you have.

I say 'Christian'='Agrees with Nyarlathotep'

My definition is no more or less valid than yours, but by mine, you are not a Christian. Bummer for you.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
Prove it. It's that simple, just prove it.

Oh and why would her pastors politcs have anything to do with the discussion?

I did in another thread entitled ''The reality of the eternal Hellfire.''

[agnostic_god]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Since 9/11 a very popular argument against God is ''If He exists, why did He allow 9/11 to happen?''

Answer: Because of Original Sin and Free Will. If God were to stop the terrorists He would be conflicting with their Free Will.



I suppose I should jump in and answer the original question before this thread goes too far off the deep end. But I'm sorry 1 in C, you are incorrect. I allowed 9/11 to happen because I was having a party that day and I created the events of 9/11 to provide entertainment for my party guests.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Only baby-killing, terrorist-coddling leftists would deny the existence of Hell.

You sounded so much like our 'esteemed guest', that I almost missed your avatar and responded to you like him. :D

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I did in another thread entitled ''The reality of the eternal Hellfire.''
Would that be the one you abandoned shortly after it was revealed your God was a slave-owner? Just curious.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
You sounded so much like our 'esteemed guest', that I almost missed your avatar and responded to you like him. :D
:D Yeah, I probably should have thrown a smiley at the end of that one.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Christ
I did in another thread entitled ''The reality of the eternal Hellfire.''

You did no such thing. You merely posted more unsubstantiated claims. Including a story from the 'Weekly World News', a publication of such unparalleled journalistic integrity that it keeps its readers up to date on the latest adventures of 'Batboy' and tells us which presidential candidate the space aliens endorse.

This does not constitute proof.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Would that be the one you abandoned shortly after it was revealed your God was a slave-owner? Just curious. Not a slave-owner, God just approves of humans being sold into forced servitude and becoming the property of other humans and, therefore, it is Good.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by agnostic_god
I suppose I should jump in and answer the original question before this thread goes too far off the deep end.

Before?

For a diety, you sure have a funny sense of 'Before';)

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Not a slave-owner, God just approves of humans being sold into forced servitude and becoming the property of other humans and, therefore, it is Good.
Granted. Perhaps it would have been more accurate of me to say "...abandoned once I tried to show your God was a slave-owner."

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
What is it I believe that you don't think Scripture supports?

Does Scripture not support eternal Salvation?

Hellfire?
Heaven?

Yes it does. Everything I have said has been perfectly in line with Scripture unless you take it out of context.

By YOUR own words in this thread, you said that :

Original sin is not paid for by the sacrifice of Jesus, but instead must be atoned for by having God punish people with events like 9/11...*you* said that not someone else..and it directly contradicts Scripture.

> You said that God was helpless against the free will of the terrorists. That contradicts the Christian doctrine of God's power.

> You rejected John 3:16 by saying that the way to redemption was to repent to God, and NOT that it was to accept Jesus

Do you even have a clue as to why it is called **Christ**ianity?

These aren't 'wrong' interpretations of minutiae from Scripture, or out of context semantics about the Bible, these are the most basic tenets of the whole religion
AND YOU REJECTED THEM... in print....repeatedly...

So as those with knowledge of Christian doctrine have correctly pointed out, you are no Christian. Even an atheist can see that.

That leaves other possibilities:

> You *think* you are a Christian, but you have made up your beliefs without bothering to study actual Christian doctrine, and have substituted your own divinity for the Word.

> You think you are a Christian, but have completely misunderstood the Word, and are arguing with accepted teachings.

> You know that you aren't a Christian, and enjoy having atheists and skeptics argue Christian doctrine for you.
(Which would fit the troll label).

> You know that you aren't a Christian, and are portraying yourself as one who doesn't even know the basics of Scripture, by making incorrect statements in order to make Christians look uninformed about their own beliefs
(Which would fit the sock puppet label).

Have I forgotten any?

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
I can already anticipate your response, they are not true Christians....

If you had only worded that differently you might be eligible for one million dollars.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Not a slave-owner, God just approves of humans being sold into forced servitude and becoming the property of other humans and, therefore, it is Good. I should probably also clarify that slavery is Good only if (1) the Bible is the absolute word of God and is 100% true for all times and all cultures and (2) everything God commands is Good, by definition. If the two above conditions are true, than slavery is Good, albeit morally wrong.

Although it is odd that God would promote an amoral act even if it is Good.

[Tony]

Originally posted by crimresearch
Have I forgotten any?

He smoked crack 1 time too many.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Yaotl
If you had only worded that differently you might be eligible for one million dollars.

I predicting the responses of bible-thumpers, trolls, or bible thumping trolls could win me the million, I'd have taken it long ago.

It is a rare day that they ever throw out a new argument. They throw out the same ones, over and over and over and over again. Oddly, they never seem to realize this and they often think that these arguments, which were refuted a million times before I was even born, are some new and devastating stroke of logic that will bring us atheists to our knees, begging for God's mercy.

It's kind of sad, when you think about it.

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
:rub:
I think I'm going to have to start leaning toward the sockpuppet theory. There is no way you can be so cataclysmically dense to think I said anywhere that I believed in vampires.

I second that emoticon.

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
But if he intervenes, he is affecting someone ELSES freewill. If my mother were very religious but dying of cancer, and I prayed to God to cure her, and he did [not] (added by me)

...

Of course these logical dillemas are easily explained if there is no God to begin with....

Precisely what happened to me, and the start of my road to clear thinking.

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
...
What is your problem? I am not a troll.
...
I'M NOT A TROLLING SOCK PUPPET!

If you feel required to say "I am not a troll" (twice in one post no less), chances are high that you very probably are one.

Exactly how many accusations of sock-puppetry are necessary to get a moderator to suspect as much? Sure, the term gets thrown around all the time, but something's really beginning to smell fishy here. (Maybe it's because I started with two fish and ended up with 5000? Sorry...)

[alfaniner]

And the award for most consecutive posts, without a reply, in the longest time span, in a formerly very active thread, goes to ME!!

I won this debate.

















Either that, or I'm a thread-killer...

[Marquis de Carabas]

Aha! I've figured it out. 1inC is your sockpuppet alfaniner. You used it to get this thread going strong, then abruptly abandoned it, started another one as a distraction, all so you could sneak back in here all ninja-like and claim the victory in this thread.

Absolutely brilliant. :clap::clap::clap:

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by alfaniner
And the award for most consecutive posts, without a reply, in the longest time span, in a formerly very active thread, goes to ME!!

I won this debate.

















Either that, or I'm a thread-killer...

Neither, our 'guest of honor' (which is, I beleive, what you call the target of a roast) had his 'hard question alarm' go off and moved to another thread.

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by alfaniner
[B]

I won this debate.



There is a waiting list for winning debates with 1inChrist. I shall add you to it. :)

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
There is a waiting list for winning debates with 1inChrist. I shall add you to it. :)

Me too please, I just need to be told when my time comes...that sounds a little ominous.

[Fizzer]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
You have to be an atheist. Why else would you speak so harshly against your Lord and Master? I am willing to bet that I am the only Christian on this website.

You're not the only one here who considers themselves a Christian. Just don't assume that the others here agree with your particular flavor of Christianity, agree with all of your statements, or approve of your methods.

[Fizzer]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Maybe you need to learn about your Faith. Hell is real. Hell is so real that Jesus died to Save you from it. Don't let your liberal pastor tell you anything different.

My Bible tells me different.

[Fizzer]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
They aren't Christians. They are influenced by Satan. Satan will mix Truth with lies (like the unsaved are not tortured for eternity). He does this so you he can run his trickery right past you.

Maybe he's run his trickery right past you.

[Z]

I am willing to bet that I am the only Christian on this website.

And I'm willing to bet that, by your definition, there's even one less than that.

[Zep]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
There is a world of difference between Jehovah/Jesus and other dieties. Stop trying to compare them!Oh, so there ARE other deities then?

[Z]

Actually, Jehovah has roots in the Jewish deities of el/il and (of course) JHVH, who in turn can be traced from various Northern European deities. The ancestry of God shows that Jehovah is not very different from other deities, and in fact comparison is very suitable in most cases.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by agnostic_god
I suppose I should jump in and answer the original question before this thread goes too far off the deep end. But I'm sorry 1 in C, you are incorrect. I allowed 9/11 to happen because I was having a party that day and I created the events of 9/11 to provide entertainment for my party guests.

Now there's something closer to a real sock puppet! Notice the use of humor and role playing, often present in sock puppets.

1inC is just a genuine Southern Baptist or something along those lines.

[Anders]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Actually, Jehovah has roots in the Jewish deities of el/il and (of course) JHVH, who in turn can be traced from various Northern European deities. The ancestry of God shows that Jehovah is not very different from other deities, and in fact comparison is very suitable in most cases.
Can you recommend any good litterature on that subject?

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Tony
He smoked crack 1 time too many.

"1inCrack"?

[UserGoogol]

1inChrist is playing a specially unpleasant form of the "Brains-in-vats" concept. The universe that we see is more or less false, corrupted by Mr. Devil. Add to this that you can observe the real universe through the "Holy Spirit," which I will optimistically assume to be a combination of warm fuzzies and his own thoughts. (Although it could just be insanity, in which case we should remember Formosa's Law (http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/Formosas-Law.html).)

So it's just another unfalsifiable epistemological theory. Any evidence can be trivially waved away by saying, "No, that's just the devil's work." As a result, debating 1inChrist is of debatable usefulness, although I admit there's some fun to just explore his unorthodox viewpoints.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

1inChrist said:
Also I must ask you atheists: Why do you care about 9/11? I mean to you a human is just an animal so 3,000 humans dying is the same as the thousands of insects you kill on the road when you drive your car, isn't it? Why should you care?
I'm an atheist, so I must value the life of a human identically with the life of an insect.

I wrote many things after that sentence, but I edited them all away.

~~ Paul

[Zombified]

Originally posted by UserGoogol
1inChrist is playing a specially unpleasant form of the "Brains-in-vats" concept. The universe that we see is more or less false, corrupted by Mr. Devil.
If I recall correctly, and I am not expert, wasn't it established that this is a heretical view sometime in the early history of the Church? It would seem to elevate Old Scratch to the level of the Demiurge of some Gnostic sects.

[Z]

Originally posted by Anders
Can you recommend any good litterature on that subject?

Not at the moment - It's been years since I was researching the Il/El-JHVH construct's history, and I think I've loaned out most of my books on the subject. There is Merlin Stone's When God was a Woman, but it is a decidedly slanted view of events. Still, the book's bibliography contains numerous reasonably good references on the subject, and it has an interesting take on the Adam & Eve myth, among other interesting tidbits. I only hesitate to recommend it because the author is a Feminist Pagan, and I can't help but feel that objectivity was not the author's prime goal.

For an interesting read, you might also consult The Complete God and The Complete Goddess, though once again these books are slanted toward the Pagan viewpoint. However, they also have some mention of the origins of Deity figures throughout history, and references to how Deities transmigrate from culture to culture, becoming what they are today.

I'm pretty sure the Religious Tolerance website (see my sig line) also has some info on the Origins of Yahweh, but seeing as how so many of their topics are 'under construction' the article in question may not exist yet.

Good luck, and good reading.