The L.D.S

[Scot C. Trypal]

Maybe it’s just because my “in-laws� are devout LDS, but it seems odd to me the Mormons don’t get much press or spend much time on this forum.

Did anyone else even know they just had their conference? I’ve seen very little coverage of it. They just picked two new members of the Quorum of the Twelve, a modern day flock of disciples for their “Living Prophet�.

God supposedly dictates these sorts of choices through the Prophet. This time, in a rare step, God picked one of the guys (they are all guys) from outside the US, a German.

Anyway I was wondering this forum’s take on the LDS.

Personally, I find it to be one of the more promising religions ever created. Sure, it has clear (sometimes comical) blunders in its sacred texts with regards to science and history, but that never stopped the Bible :). I’d even say the Book of Mormon, D&C, and The Pearl of Great Price have one up on the Bible for being written by one hand, thus limiting the internal contradictions.

The best thing though has got to be the living prophet; they put him to good use.

Polygamy is part of your sacred texts, but The Man says drop it or you won’t become a state? Fine! God sends a message to your prophet to change the dogma and that’s the end of that.

Your religion won’t let blacks have the priesthood, but those bleeding-heart liberals are crying bigotry? Fine! Another message sent and blacks can be priests.

They have the strong, pleasing, and seemingly ancient and eternal truths of their scriptures and the Bible. But they mix it with the flexibility of a living prophet. That mix makes, in my mind, the LDS faith one of the strongest contenders of the future religious landscape.

What do you think?

[Chanileslie]

Well, I used to be Mormon, and actually, if it weren't for the inherent sexism and the whole believing in god thing, I loved the Mormon church. It was a great place. I always felt warm and accepted, and a part of the group. The Mormon community was great! It didn't matter if one were a social outcast outside the church, within the church one was important and had plenty of friends. Also, the church was very supportive. If one needed something, or even just needed a shoulder to cry on, there was somebody always ready and willing to supply these things. The social functions were great - I had so much fun at these from the Rock-a-thon to the dances to the horse riding to the cooking classes. It was absolutely great.

Also, of many religions, the Mormons tend to be scientifically supportive.

Of course, I admit that although I new the General Conference was taking place, I didn't know any more than that. I haven't kept up with the church since Spencer T. Kimble was the Prophet.


Speaking of the Prophet, who is supposedly choosen by god, how was it determined god has choosen soandso, and I was told that the highest elder on the Quorum of 12 would be moved into the Prophet position, and so I said, but how is that god's choice? What if god wanted the guy who was 10 highest to be the Prophet? The anwer was, "Well then god would take the Prophet to heaven until the correct Prophet was in place!" I felt that was a rather inefficient way to get one's messages across!

[Soapy Sam]

I was a tad surprised many years back, to learn that my town had a resident Mormon Bishop. As I had never actually met a single LDS member here, it seemed to me that a priest or minister would have sufficed for the apparently tiny local flock.

I mentioned this to my father who commented that when U.S. troops first arrived in the UK in WW2, they already had medals, and that the U.S. Army seemed to have more colonels and generals than the British, German and Russian forces put together. He found this amusing.

My "take" on the LDS has been coloured by that half-joking comment ever since- ie typically American, typically over-the-top, typically faintly ridiculous, but probably with good dentistry and plenty money. The Osmonds later confirmed this, as did a visit to the Tabernacle Visitor Centre in Salt Lake City. (Fascinating, but slightly screwy).
I wonder what their god is like? Does he have epaulettes? And medals?

[Scot C. Trypal]

Well, I used to be Mormon, and actually, if it weren't for the inherent sexism and the whole believing in god thing, I loved the Mormon church.

I was too for a brief period, and, I agree, there really is much to enjoy. As you describe, their strong focus on a sense of community is great. Their focus on both small and large charity and strengthening families is also admirable to me (save for where they deal with families containing homosexuals).

This is another way in which I see the LDS faith taking off; it kind of did to the NT what the NT did to the OT. It updated the religion and continues to do so. With the NT there are some verses which are very distasteful to modern sensibilities. For example, the arguably family-hostile or dismissive verses like:

“For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.�

And

“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.�

But, with the LDS, all the sudden your marriage and family is divinely important. It is now in fact a ticket to the highest realm of heaven.

The LDS also have a more just afterlife, with 3 heavens into which most all humanity will make it. I was told even the lowest kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom where even non-LDS criminals go, would be so pleasant you’d kill yourself just to get there.

Speaking of the Prophet, who is supposedly choosen by god, how was it determined god has choosen soandso, and I was told that the highest elder on the Quorum of 12 would be moved into the Prophet position, and so I said, but how is that god's choice? What if god wanted the guy who was 10 highest to be the Prophet? The anwer was, "Well then god would take the Prophet to heaven until the correct Prophet was in place!" I felt that was a rather inefficient way to get one's messages across!

:)

This is why I wish some LDS would post here; I’d like to understand this better as well (Also, I generally find them to have a more pleasant temperament than average). I remember being told the highest elder was most always to be the next prophet but God could instruct the Quorum to pick someone else, without knocking off disciples.

I was a tad surprised many years back, to learn that my town had a resident Mormon Bishop. As I had never actually met a single LDS member here, it seemed to me that a priest or minister would have sufficed for the apparently tiny local flock.

I mentioned this to my father who commented that when U.S. troops first arrived in the UK in WW2, they already had medals, and that the U.S. Army seemed to have more colonels and generals than the British, German and Russian forces put together. He found this amusing.

The LDS do give out impressive sounding titles pretty liberally. Even I’m an “elder� and a “priest� (well I was until I asked to be excommunicated a couple years ago).

I wonder what their god is like? Does he have epaulettes? And medals?

It’s an odd God to be sure. He has a physical body on which to hang medals. He has a wife; lives on a distant planet of “glass and fire�; and (I’m not sure how popular this still is) was once mortal, with His own God… Why not metals and epaulettes?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
I was a tad surprised many years back, to learn that my town had a resident Mormon Bishop. As I had never actually met a single LDS member here, it seemed to me that a priest or minister would have sufficed for the apparently tiny local flock.

I mentioned this to my father who commented that when U.S. troops first arrived in the UK in WW2, they already had medals, and that the U.S. Army seemed to have more colonels and generals than the British, German and Russian forces put together. He found this amusing.

My "take" on the LDS has been coloured by that half-joking comment ever since- ie typically American, typically over-the-top, typically faintly ridiculous, but probably with good dentistry and plenty money. The Osmonds later confirmed this, as did a visit to the Tabernacle Visitor Centre in Salt Lake City. (Fascinating, but slightly screwy).
I wonder what their god is like? Does he have epaulettes? And medals?

Another Ex-Mormon chiming in....

Your father's comment actually wasn't too far off the mark. The priesthood in the LDS church is very unique, basically every male member of the church has some rank in the priesthood. If you have grown up in the church you can probably take the title of Elder by the time you are 18. A Bishop isn't really that high in the hierarchy, though if your local Mormon population was so small it would seem more likely that you would have a 'Branch President' who would answer to a Bishop in a larger community, but it may be that there were no large communities of LDS memeber near you so one of the 'Branch Presidents' is in fact a Bishop.

As for the original post, while I think there are some tings in Mormon Doctrine that would make it more attractive to people than conventional Christian doctrine (The LDS idea of the afterlife, for example, avoids things like the idea of infinite punishment for finite sins and gives you an actual reason for the whole thing) but I don't see it becoming much more of a player in the world of religion than it already is.

The reason for this is simply tradition. People tend to pick up the religion of their parents, i.e. if you were brought up Catholic you will tend to see the Catholic Church as being the right one. Sure there is some trade off, but I think the fact that most people are brought up in other churches will act as a limit to how far the LDS Church can grow. You might have the occasional die-hard methodist converting to Mormonism but then you have the occasional Mormon becoming a Methodist and most people are going to stay with what they were brought up in.

Just my $0.02

[Loon]

It is my understanding, based on conversations with a Mormon friend (who would make a GREAT addition to the forum- maybe I'll see if he's interested) that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in the world. I think the missionaries all over the world, the general positive image and the (stereotype) of large families all contribute to a growing religion.

[EdipisReks]

my family, on both sides, is mormon, though my parents are lapsed. i find them irritating, especially when members of the clergy visits every month despite having been told to stay the **** away.


Edited for breach of Rule 8.

[SezMe]

Originally posted by Loon
It is my understanding, based on conversations with a Mormon friend (who would make a GREAT addition to the forum- maybe I'll see if he's interested) that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in the world. I think the missionaries all over the world, the general positive image and the (stereotype ) of large families all contribute to a growing religion.
My added emphasis.

What, you're saying the average-sized Mormon family is statistically the same as all of the USA. Got evidence?

[Scot C. Trypal]

Nyarlathotep:
The reason for this is simply tradition. People tend to pick up the religion of their parents, i.e. if you were brought up Catholic you will tend to see the Catholic Church as being the right one. Sure there is some trade off, but I think the fact that most people are brought up in other churches will act as a limit to how far the LDS Church can grow. You might have the occasional die-hard methodist converting to Mormonism but then you have the occasional Mormon becoming a Methodist and most people are going to stay with what they were brought up in.

I see your point, and, as you surely know as an ex, the LDS church does too. Families are encouraged to be large. One of my relatives claims to live “higher� LDS law and that means, among other things, no birth control at all and 7 children, at the time of this post :) .

The LDS also have one of the most aggressive missionary programs I know of. All men are expected to serve for two years, and a good portion of the women serve as well. Heck (to use the LDS lingo), even my better half went on a mission and converted nearly a dozen Buddhists to Mormonism. That’s a force to reckon with.

Of course you’re right that people are still going to tend to stick with the familiar, but that’s also the cleverness of the LDS religion. Sort of like the NT, the LDS scriptures don’t try make something out of thin air. They piggyback on older, more credible and familiar faiths. Sure, as a Methodist you worship Jesus, read the Bible, and Jesus loves you, but you weren’t getting the full picture. There’s more to it; a better relationship with the Christian God; a better heaven; eternal family… Like some new toothpaste, it’s Methodist Plus.

Maybe I’m way off on this but it seems to me the LDS faith is smartly made to be competitive.

Loon:
who would make a GREAT addition to the forum- maybe I'll see if he's interested

Please do; I think this forum would benefit by a Mormon or two.

EdipisReks:
i find them irritating, especially when members of the clergy visits every month despite having been told to stay the **** away.

:) Tell them you’re gay. That works like a charm.

SezMe:
What, you're saying the average-sized Mormon family is statistically the same as all of the USA. Got evidence?

I think you’re right. It’s more than a stereotype. From:

http://governor.utah.gov/dea/ERG/ERG2004/08PersIncome.pdf

Utah has the youngest population, as well as the largest family size in the nation.

Not direct evidence but Utah is around 80% LDS.

Edited for breach of Rule 8.

[cbish]

Scott,

We've had several Mormon threads here but I believe it was before your time. I believe the last mormon thread was yours last year when you brought up the book, Under the Banner of Heaven.

Randfan is a ferrel mormon as well as Michael Redman. Me, I'm not mormon but all of my wife's family is. We've had some excellent discussions and people have been very helpful in providing coping skills.

[Scot C. Trypal]

Originally posted by cbish
Scott,

We've had several Mormon threads here but I believe it was before your time. I believe the last mormon thread was yours last year when you brought up the book, Under the Banner of Heaven.

I lurked here for quite a while and do remember a few topics on the LDS faith, but I was not the one who created the Under the Banner of Heaven thread :confused:. Searching… It was Marc.

Randfan is a ferrel mormon as well as Michael Redman. Me, I'm not mormon but all of my wife's family is. We've had some excellent discussions and people have been very helpful in providing coping skills.

My father in-law was a bishop and I've had a bit of a different experience. I love my in-laws like family and we respect each other greatly, but I think we all see the LDS religion as just too risky of a topic to discuss, save for the occasional (and appreciated) attempts at consoling during a crisis. In fact it has seemed to me, perhaps incorrectly, that debate and confrontation is to be left to the missionaries, if at all.

I'd simply like to see the LDS faith discussed more (it surprised me that little to no mention of there conference could be found on the forums I frequent, or the news). As I’ve expressed, I have a kind of pragmatic hope for the religion.

[cbish]

Scott wrote:
My father in-law was a bishop and I've had a bit of a different experience. I love my in-laws like family and we respect each other greatly, but I think we all see the LDS religion as just too risky of a topic to discuss

I've had the exact same experiences. My wife is the only person on her paternal side (out of 100+ people) who is not active. Prior to meeting my wife, I had no experience with the LDS. It was very trying and difficult the first half dozen years or so, but I have a pretty good understanding based on observation and my own hypothesis about the church.

One thing I have always found interesting, though, is how ex-mormons, no matter how critical they become of the church, will defend it. Randfan and I have agreed that there is a "fondness" for the church that is still entrenched in the mormon psyche. I have witnessed on the board as I have accused Randfan, and he admitted some truth to it, that he can be somewhat of an apologist. My wife, and a close friend, are the same way.

I've never witnessed this with other denominations. From my experiences, when someone leaves 'the church', it's usually a bad divorce. With mormons, even if they are completely inactive and rejectful of it's teaching, I find there's always the ....."yeah, but"....

I find this odd.

[sackett]

It's good to hear some voices from the inside of Mormonism. I've often wondered what rewards believers of any denomination could possibly find in their cults, in particular LDS. It lacks just about everything you'd want in a religion. It has no poetry, no charisma, no glamour, no spectacle, and surely the dullest succession of prophets the world has ever seen. (Well, maybe I should qualify that in the case of J. Smith, who appears to have been a lot of fun, a genial con man who could wrangle some high times in just about any circumstances.) Now I understand LDS better: it's comforting to be an insider, to be accepted just as you are, as long as you say you believe. Not all protestant cults are like that.

I still can't fathom how modern-day Mormons, people who've been to school and use reason vigorously in every other aspect of life, can comfortably ignore the goofy blatherings that Smith put over on those 19th. century hayseeds. Perhaps there's a meta-Mormonism, a theology that explains all that stuff away? Or maybe most Saints just can't be bothered with that dullest of holy books, the Book of Mormon?

Let me assure you, my prickly language about Mormonism is NOT intended to disparage you individual believers and former believers; I'm not here to antagonize you in any way. It's just hard for a gentile born and raised in the West to keep his cool when the subject comes up.

[Soapy Sam]

Seems to me that what you in the know liked best about LDS is the extended family social network.

It is precisely that role that I feel is most important for any church . It is the aspect I am saddest to see being lost from much of western society as traditional religion declines.

I can't help wondering how much of what goes on at this board is born out of a desire for just such a shared network.

(I see nothing at all wrong with that by the way, so long as we don't lose sight of the primary aims of the board itself. It's a plus, not a minus.)

[cbish]

sackett & soapy sam,

I think you're both on to something.

I still can't fathom how modern-day Mormons, people who've been to school and use reason vigorously in every other aspect of life, can comfortably ignore the goofy blatherings that Smith put over on those 19th. century hayseeds

Seems to me that what you in the know liked best about LDS is the extended family social network.

This is a point that also fascinated me when I first met my wife. Mormons are extremely gregarious.......with, and only with, other mormons. One criticism I've had of the church is that they are isolationists. Extreme isolationists IMO. I think the reason is, is because mormons are constantly seeking validation. How could anyone whose educated and reasonable believe that dribble? Easy! Surround yourself with people who are desirous of the same things you are and develop you own 'mutual masturbation society'.;)

[thaiboxerken]

I shudder at the thought of the Mormons gaining dominant control of a country. What messages will their living prophets recieve from God then?

No, living prophets are a bad thing.

[sackett]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
I shudder at the thought of the Mormons gaining dominant control of a country. What messages will their living prophets recieve from God then?
No, living prophets are a bad thing.

Any cult that finds itself in the majority tends to get overbearing. A friend of mine once worked for the power company in Cody, Wyoming, a heavily Mormonised region of the earth. He was told by his Mormon supervisor that, no, he didn't have to convert to Saintism if he didn't want to, but it would be wise of my friend to give money to LDS - to tithe, in effect -- if he hoped for promotion. All quite unashamed and inyerface this was.

Religious government is a bad, bad thing. We can be damn glad the LDS only controls Utah. If they'd managed to establish their independent country of Deseret, today we'd have an Iran or Saudi Arabia smack dab in the middle of North America. Not that Mormonism is anything but a mild-mannered protestant cult, either. It's just that power sanctioned by holiness is too strong a drink for human nature.

Joseph Smith was a reformed alcoholic, by the way.

[TeaBag420]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam

I mentioned this to my father who commented that when U.S. troops first arrived in the UK in WW2, they already had medals, and that the U.S. Army seemed to have more colonels and generals than the British, German and Russian forces put together. He found this amusing.

My "take" on the LDS has been coloured by that half-joking comment ever since- ie typically American, typically over-the-top, typically faintly ridiculous, but probably with good dentistry and plenty money. The Osmonds later confirmed this, as did a visit to the Tabernacle Visitor Centre in Salt Lake City. (Fascinating, but slightly screwy).
I wonder what their god is like? Does he have epaulettes? And medals?

DUMBASS. Perhaps they had medals from the LAST TIME THEY SAVED YOUR SORRY ASSES, IN A LITTLE ENGAGEMENT CALLED WORLD WAR I. If your father was really the retart you present him as, you have my sincere condolences.

Or perhaps Nicaragua, Cuba, or the Philippines.

And you have to admit, a couple of our generals were pretty good at their jobs. Patton and Eisenhower come to mind. As well as one of yours, MacArthur.

Your anti-American comment has been noted.

[TeaBag420]

Originally posted by sackett


Let me assure you, my prickly language about Mormonism is NOT intended to disparage you individual believers and former believers; I'm not here to antagonize you in any way. It's just hard for a gentile born and raised in the West to keep his cool when the subject comes up.

Why do you feel the need to identify yourself as a "gentile"?

It doesn't mean "non-Mormon" so why is it relevant?

Mormons are gentiles.

You're GIVING THE IMPRESSION that you're saying "I'm no Jew."

Got a problem?

[TeaBag420]

Originally posted by sackett
Any cult that finds itself in the majority tends to get overbearing. A friend of mine once worked for the power company in Cody, Wyoming, a heavily Mormonised region of the earth. He was told by his Mormon supervisor that, no, he didn't have to convert to Saintism if he didn't want to, but it would be wise of my friend to give money to LDS - to tithe, in effect -- if he hoped for promotion. All quite unashamed and inyerface this was.

Religious government is a bad, bad thing. We can be damn glad the LDS only controls Utah. If they'd managed to establish their independent country of Deseret, today we'd have an Iran or Saudi Arabia smack dab in the middle of North America. Not that Mormonism is anything but a mild-mannered protestant cult, either. It's just that power sanctioned by holiness is too strong a drink for human nature.

Joseph Smith was a reformed alcoholic, by the way.


Most new religions (and all religions are new at one time or another) are simply thinly disguised excuses for pedophilia.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by sackett
Any cult that finds itself in the majority tends to get overbearing. A friend of mine once worked for the power company in Cody, Wyoming, a heavily Mormonised region of the earth. He was told by his Mormon supervisor that, no, he didn't have to convert to Saintism if he didn't want to, but it would be wise of my friend to give money to LDS - to tithe, in effect -- if he hoped for promotion. All quite unashamed and inyerface this was.

Hmm, that is really quite interesting especially since tithing is kept completely anonymous. Yes, in the Mormon religion, one is requested to donate 10% of one's income, but it isn't like in many religions where a collection plate is passed around nor is this an overt act, and if one doesn't donate, the Bishop isn't about to send goons to break one's legs. One takes an envelope, which are readily available, places the tithe amount in the envelope and then gives that envelope to the Bishop. What and how much if anything is in that envelope is no one's business. Pay stubs and proof of income are not requested. It is a matter of doing what god wishes, not of one-up-manship.

Now, if this person insisted that your friend hand over this tithe to him personally, then perhaps your friend should have contacted not only the authorities, but the church because extortion can be grounds for excommunication from the church.

Originally posted by sackett
Religious government is a bad, bad thing. We can be damn glad the LDS only controls Utah. If they'd managed to establish their independent country of Deseret, today we'd have an Iran or Saudi Arabia smack dab in the middle of North America. Not that Mormonism is anything but a mild-mannered protestant cult, either. It's just that power sanctioned by holiness is too strong a drink for human nature.

Joseph Smith was a reformed alcoholic, by the way.

Actually had the Mormons kept a private nation, I imagine it wouldn't be any different than Utah already is. Well, except for instead of being tightly controlled, I think alcohol wouldn't be available at all. And polygamy would probably still be practiced. Polygamy was only pushed out because Utah wanted to be admited to the Union.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by TeaBag420
Why do you feel the need to identify yourself as a "gentile"?

It doesn't mean "non-Mormon" so why is it relevant?

Mormons are gentiles.

You're GIVING THE IMPRESSION that you're saying "I'm no Jew."

Got a problem?

Actually in the Mormon religion those who are not a member are referred to as gentiles, even Jews.

From Websters Online:

Main Entry: 1gen·tile
Pronunciation: 'jen-"tIl
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation
1 often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew
2 : HEATHEN, PAGAN
3 often capitalized : a non-Mormon

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by sackett
It's good to hear some voices from the inside of Mormonism. I've often wondered what rewards believers of any denomination could possibly find in their cults, in particular LDS. It lacks just about everything you'd want in a religion. It has no poetry, no charisma, no glamour, no spectacle, and surely the dullest succession of prophets the world has ever seen. (Well, maybe I should qualify that in the case of J. Smith, who appears to have been a lot of fun, a genial con man who could wrangle some high times in just about any circumstances.) Now I understand LDS better: it's comforting to be an insider, to be accepted just as you are, as long as you say you believe. Not all protestant cults are like that.

I still can't fathom how modern-day Mormons, people who've been to school and use reason vigorously in every other aspect of life, can comfortably ignore the goofy blatherings that Smith put over on those 19th. century hayseeds. Perhaps there's a meta-Mormonism, a theology that explains all that stuff away? Or maybe most Saints just can't be bothered with that dullest of holy books, the Book of Mormon?

Let me assure you, my prickly language about Mormonism is NOT intended to disparage you individual believers and former believers; I'm not here to antagonize you in any way. It's just hard for a gentile born and raised in the West to keep his cool when the subject comes up.

Quite frankly, I don't think the LDS belief system is any more silly than any other belief system, and it is hard for me to fathom how anyone can believe any of that mystical crap. But I think belief is strong and wanting to believe plays a very big role in that. I think a lot of people find comfort in their beliefs and therefore it makes it all the stronger for them and the easier to ignore the irational crap.

And actually, in terms of bible and Book of Mormom knowledge, Mormons are pretty good at that. One is encouraged to read the bible and the BOM, not just selected passages and if one grew up in the church, one would attend in depth bible study courses during weekdays called Seminary. And one is supposed to continue the Seminary education through college. I attended Seminary, and I got to go to Disneyland because I read the bible all the way through. I was Bible Jeopardy Champion! Nobody could beat me at it in Seminary. I remember on Friday's, we would play Bible Jeopardy, and I was usually given a pretty hefty handicap. I hated our interstake competitions because part of the rules was that a person on a team could only answer every 3rd question to give other team members a chance to answer.

While in High School, there are 4 years of Seminary - one year focuses on each part of the scriptures. One year the Old Testament, the next year the New Testament, the next year the Book of Mormom, the next year the Doctrines and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price.

Here are some interesting facts about the Mormon belief system:
Mormon's do not believe in original sin. It is believed that with placing the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden, god was providing Adam and Eve a choice - innocence and eternal life, or knowledge, understanding and a finite life.
The Mormons are not a monotheistic religion - they are headed by 3 gods - God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Ghost with God the Father being the most powerful of the three.
Mormons also believe that Jesus is only the god of this planet, Earth and that other planets most likely have their own gods and saviors.
It is untrue that Mormons are not permitted to drink caffiene. The BOM specifically states hot liquids. So, while a ice coffee would be okay, a hot cup of coffee is not. I never quite understood this or how it applied to soup and tea.
The only benefit to being a woman in the Mormon church is that only men of the priesthood (all men above a certain age in the Mormon church obtain the priesthood: first the Aaronic and then the Mechelzdik (sp?)) can baptise, so a girl can pick any hottie she wants. :D

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by TeaBag420
Why do you feel the need to identify yourself as a "gentile"?

It doesn't mean "non-Mormon" so why is it relevant?

Mormons are gentiles.

You're GIVING THE IMPRESSION that you're saying "I'm no Jew."

Got a problem?

Mormon's refer to non-Mormons as gentiles. Thus to a Mormon, Jew is a gentile too.

Pretty weird huh?

[roger]

Originally posted by Chanileslie

The Mormons are not a monotheistic religion - they are headed by 3 gods - God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Ghost with God the Father being the most powerful of the three. I am not LDS, but after reading this thread I googled to find the Book of Mormon. In The Tesimony of Three Witnesses it states And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God.

It sounds more like the catholics trinity=one. Does LDS generally state that it is polytheistic, or is this more your take on it?

[Nyarlathotep]

And you have to admit, a couple of our generals were pretty good at their jobs. Patton and Eisenhower come to mind. As well as one of yours, MacArthur.
[/B]

I don't know how to break this to you but MacArthur was one of ours too.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by roger
I am not LDS, but after reading this thread I googled to find the Book of Mormon. In The Tesimony of Three Witnesses it states

It sounds more like the catholics trinity=one. Does LDS generally state that it is polytheistic, or is this more your take on it?

Yeah, that's a little contradictory, but I remember it being drilled into my head in Sunday School that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were in fact three seperate entities, not one entity like all those apostate churches taught.

[cbish]

chanileslie wrote:
Here are some interesting facts about the Mormon belief system:

Interesting. Any more?

The only benefit to being a woman in the Mormon church is.......

There's a thread starter!!:p

Since I had no experience with mormonism prior to meeting my wife, most of my beefs with the church involve social issues rather than religious ones. Even though there may published doctrines to mormonism, from my experiences, there appears to be many, many more 'unwritten rules'. ( I think the titheing story from Cody could be credible.) This is why I find these threads difficult because people here want evidence and all we can really discuss are antedotes.

There are definite gender roles in mormonism. Think pre WWII USA. All my sister-in -laws, my mother-in-law, my wife's mormon friends are all stay at home moms. (and pathetic, depressed, pill poppers.........not that correlation has causation but.........)

[Kitty Chan]

What is the living prophet? Is it just one guy ? Sounds like the pope. If like the pope does he do like the pope does sort of?

[Marquis de Carabas]

More importantly, does he have a Pope hat?

[Stitch]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

No, living prophets are a bad thing.

Not sure that dead ones are much better - people are still interpreting what Jesus wants them to do almost 2000 years after his death (assuming he ever existed).

[sackett]

Originally posted by TeaBag420
Why do you feel the need to identify yourself as a "gentile"?

It doesn't mean "non-Mormon" so why is it relevant?

Mormons are gentiles.

You're GIVING THE IMPRESSION that you're saying "I'm no Jew."

Got a problem?

My use of the word "gentile" in this context is way-out-West-specific: Old-time Mormons called non-Mormons "gentiles." (I don't know if contemporary Mormons still do; hope so; it's a quaint practice.) My intent was to signal to the Westerners here that I grew up in Mormon country (more or less) and was familiar with that usage. I'm not 100% sure, but I think LDS considers even Jews to be gentiles!

Jeeze, I'd hate to get crossways of YOU after a couple of boilermakers.

[Loon]

Originally posted by sackett
My use of the word "gentile" in this context is way-out-West-specific: Old-time Mormons called non-Mormons "gentiles." (I don't know if contemporary Mormons still do; hope so; it's a quaint practice.)

Some of them do. My Mormon friend and I often trip up on discussions because we have different meanings for the word "Gentile," what with me being Jewish and all.

To say nothing of the time when, as a very young boy, I confused "gentile" and "genital" in the telling of a dirty joke. Not quite the repsonse I expected.

[sackett]

If the kingdom of Deseret had been established (I like the phrase "private kingdom" BTW: that's exactly what the territory was in the days of Brigham Young) it would most certainly NOT look like modern-day Utah. Ever heard of the Avenging Angels? They were Brigham's fellahs; they went around dealing with people the Prophet didn't approve of -- and I believe they'd work for any Elder who had need of them and could slip them a little fee. If some goaty old Saint had his eye on a tasty-looking girl, the Angels would make sure that any young suitors she might have would pack their gear and ride out -- if they still could after the A's were done with them.

With statehood and the coming of constitutional law, that kind of thing lapsed, especially after Brigham's day, when a lot of rough-hewn frontier attitudes died with the original Mormons. But who can doubt that a full-grown religious tyranny would have propagated itself if it had had a free hand? No, I'm with T Boxer on this one: down with holy governments.

And yet, it's true that Mormons tend to be comfy, unoffending country folks - old-timey folks who keep the cellar full of good canned vegetables. I have no beef with non-doctrinal Mormons.

[sackett]

Originally posted by Chanileslie
Quite frankly, I don't think the LDS belief system is any more silly than any other belief system, and it is hard for me to fathom how anyone can believe any of that mystical crap. . . .
Yes, but: We know so much about Joe ("Oh the Carnal Mind!") Smith, and his effusions are such achingly transparent claptrap. (I've heard the BOM called a novel; well that's charitable.) It's not really mystical, or let's say it's p-poor mysticism. Smith's make-believe knowledge has been exposed so thoroughly and the origins of his doctrine are so clearly a con that I find it especially baffling that anybody this side of Lacchus or Ian or LifeGazer could accept even one syllable of it as true.

IOW, I fear that I must disagree: the LDS belief system -is- sillier than many others. My Jack Mormon uncle Bill would probably second that.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
What is the living prophet? Is it just one guy ? Sounds like the pope. If like the pope does he do like the pope does sort of?

yes he is just one guy, and he is rather like the pope in the sense of being the head of the church and is considered to have sort of a special connection to God from whence he draws his inspiration to lead. He is called a living prophet because he is literally considered to be a prophet . He does have a 'quorum' of twelve 'apostles' to assist him though.

He doesn't get the silly hat though. In every picture I have ever seen of him he was wearing a business suit.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by sackett
My use of the word "gentile" in this context is way-out-West-specific: Old-time Mormons called non-Mormons "gentiles." (I don't know if contemporary Mormons still do; hope so; it's a quaint practice.)

They still did when I was active in the church, some 20 years ago.

[Scot C. Trypal]

cbish
One thing I have always found interesting, though, is how ex-mormons, no matter how critical they become of the church, will defend it. Randfan and I have agreed that there is a "fondness" for the church that is still entrenched in the mormon psyche. I have witnessed on the board as I have accused Randfan, and he admitted some truth to it, that he can be somewhat of an apologist. My wife, and a close friend, are the same way.

I've never witnessed this with other denominations. From my experiences, when someone leaves 'the church', it's usually a bad divorce. With mormons, even if they are completely inactive and rejectful of it's teaching, I find there's always the ....."yeah, but"....

Man, I just had this conversation a couple days ago and I’m glad to see I’m not imagining the trend.

Get this, we’re friends with a gay couple, devout Episcopals, been together 15 years, but one was once a Mormon and even endured their “reparative� therapy. The LDS church fights vigorously on the side of the religious right, but he’ll still defend it as through he just got back from his mission yesterday. He’s even expressed a desire to have their children baptized LDS. I don’t understand it.

I think the reason I don’t get it is found in what has been discussed by you and Soapy Sam, the integration of the religion into the family life, and the social insulation. Our friend was raised LDS, while I converted from plain old protestant.

I’d recommend anyone take the LDS up of their offer of “visitors welcome� in their churches, at least once. Everyone, from children to adults, is encouraged to “bear their testimony�. This is a long emotional speech in front of the whole congregation that always starts with “I know this church is true and…� What follows is an emotional list of gratefulness for family, life, and god. It’d make a lasting impression on anyone raised in that church.

How could anyone whose educated and reasonable believe that dribble? Easy! Surround yourself with people who are desirous of the same things you are and develop you own 'mutual masturbation society'. ;)

Yes, they know what they’re doing. They want something to be true and, as you say, they’ll surround themselves with likeminded folks.

I’m more on Chanileslie’s side here, I don’t think they’re stupid, just self-pleasuring ;). When I think of the apologetics for the Bible, made by some very bright believers, I can see areas where the LDS scriptures are worse off, but others where they fare better (for example again, the relative few internal contradiction).

Thaiboxerken:
I shudder at the thought of the Mormons gaining dominant control of a country. What messages will their living prophets recieve from God then?

No, living prophets are a bad thing.
I’d certainly not want to live in their theocracy; I’m just saying I’m rooting for them to take a good chunk of the religious scene, if there must be one.

I can see how the “living prophet� looks like a monarch and in some ways he is. It can be dangerous.

Still, and as Stitch said, he’s better than an immovable dictatorship of dead guys from a long gone and brutal culture. Look at the history. The LDS prophets have taken a racist, sexist, group of pale polygamists and, by the supposed direction of God, made a bunch of largely pleasant, family friendly Protestants (and they’re even slightly less sexist ;) ). It’s been a large positive change for them, and, while the LDS may attribute it to God, I think it was, in fact, the society controlling the religion through the prophet. More modern and more humane morals can be more easily accommodated into the religion because there is a figurehead who speaks for God. He is not completely bound by the texts, nor does he need to stretch flimsy “interpretations� to fit modern morals as the more liberal protestant churches do, further risking their credibility.

Also, unlike groups like the Baptists, there’s a guy who is in control of the religion and who can be held accountable by his society. You’re not going to see a Fred Phelps Mormon because there is centralized control in the LDS church, and Brother Phelps would be excommunicated, if not for his cruelty, then for the bad publicity he brings.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by roger
I am not LDS, but after reading this thread I googled to find the Book of Mormon. In The Tesimony of Three Witnesses it states

It sounds more like the catholics trinity=one. Does LDS generally state that it is polytheistic, or is this more your take on it?

Each is believed to be a seperate individual, not one and the same, but serving the same purpose. They act in accord. In the church, there was the long running joke about other religions of a christian bent who had a god with three heads, six arms and six legs because of the trinity thing. They are three, yet one!! The Mormon's are very polytheistic, even believing that there are more gods than the ones they worship. God had to be created by someone, eh? They believe God had a father as well. And each planet has its own set of gods.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
What is the living prophet? Is it just one guy ? Sounds like the pope. If like the pope does he do like the pope does sort of?

It is just one guy. And he has 12 Apostles from which when the one guys die, the new prophet will be chosen, usually the guy who has been an apostle the longest.

Like the Pope, the Prophet actually runs the Mormon Church, sets doctrines, makes decisions. I don't believe he has a Popemobile and he tends to wear plain suits, not fancy gold and jewel encrusted robes for him and no strange hats either.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
What is the living prophet? Is it just one guy ? Sounds like the pope. If like the pope does he do like the pope does sort of?

Nope, no Pope hat....well okay, he could have a pope hat, but it isn't a part of his office. :D

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by sackett
Yes, but: We know so much about Joe ("Oh the Carnal Mind!") Smith, and his effusions are such achingly transparent claptrap. (I've heard the BOM called a novel; well that's charitable.) It's not really mystical, or let's say it's p-poor mysticism. Smith's make-believe knowledge has been exposed so thoroughly and the origins of his doctrine are so clearly a con that I find it especially baffling that anybody this side of Lacchus or Ian or LifeGazer could accept even one syllable of it as true.

IOW, I fear that I must disagree: the LDS belief system -is- sillier than many others. My Jack Mormon uncle Bill would probably second that.

Why does anyone believe in any silly thing? Why does John Edwards who has been shown time and time again to be an oportunistic fraud have such a following?

I don't really think the LDS belief system is sillier than any others. They are all extremely absurd with ridiculous beliefs.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by cbish
chanileslie wrote:


Interesting. Any more?


Sure,

Mormon's keep a years supply of food at all times, so they are prepared for Armageddon. One month out of the year, Mormons are not supposed to do any grocery shopping, and exist of their years supplies. The purpose of this is so that they oldest supplies are used and then can be replenished with new supplies.

A good Mormon should also have a vegetable garden, so that they can have fresh foods in the event of a tragedy or cataclysm. If you have a major disaster, and rescuers can't get supplies to you for a while, hope that you live near a good Mormon or two because they will have plenty of food, water, flashlights, blankets and possibly a generator, not to mention fuel.

I have never drank so much Kool-aide or ate so much Jello as when I was in the Mormon church - they are dietary musts, I think.

Many Mormon couples will have two wedding ceremonies - one in the Temple to consecrate their vows and one they can invite their non-Mormon and less devote Mormon friends to. Nyarlathotep and I, although we are both pretty hardcore atheists, could actually qualify to consecreate our marriage in the Temple if we just attended church for a years time. :D

One Sunday of the month is fasting Sunday - I can't recall if it is the first or last Sunday of the month. During that day, one is supposed to fast from sunrise to sundown. The savings from that fasting (not eating two meals) are supposed to be donated to charity.

President Daniels, my seminary teacher and a member of my Ward, was one of the best people I ever knew, all religion aside. He was kind, considerate and generous to everyone, of the Mormon religion or not. It is people like President Daniels and my friend, Gale's, parents that leave me with such a good feeling about the Mormon church because these were good, genuinely wonderful people who didn't just pay lip service to caring for everyone, but actually did.

The developementally disabled have a free ride into the inner circle of heaven and don't require baptism because the Mormon's believe that these individuals are the chosen of god, and are here to teach us a lesson.

[sackett]

Tell about the spiritual garment. I love that one.

[Bruce]

Chanileslie,

May I ask what drove you to leave the LDS? What was the reaction of family and friends? Thnx.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Bruce
Chanileslie,

May I ask what drove you to leave the LDS? What was the reaction of family and friends? Thnx.

Not friends or family. My mom and friends although they didn't really like the Mormon church, were actually very supportive. I left the church for several reasons:

One, I didn't really believe in god. I tried. I really tried. I wanted so much to belong, and the church was a pretty safe place to be.

Also, I really couldn't stand the sexism that was part and parcel in the religion, and the whole: Women can't hold office in the church because they have the more important task of being mothers, never washed well with me.

The Anti-homosexual thing drove me batty - it just didn't make sense.

Racism - why were blacks not allowed to obtain the Priesthood until 1977? Does god not know what he wants? What's the deal? Also, some other very racist comments made by people in the church, really bothered me. A lot of Mormons honestly believe that blacks are one of the 13 Tribes that went bad, and are dark in coloration to show that they are inherently evil. This was taught by the church, but that is now and even when I was a member, falling by the way side. It is one of the cool things about having a living prophet, there is a viable reason to make major changes in doctrine!

The church's stance on suicide - that it was evil and anyone who killed themself would be punished for it, unless it was understood they had a problem - hello, nobody just becomes bored one day and say, "Hey, I'm going to kill myself!"

The pre-marital sex thing - although Mormon's do have a pretty lax view on sex within marriage. Unlike the misconception that sex is only for procreation and that is why Mormon's have so many kids, sex is according to Mormon doctrine a gift to married people for them to enjoy each other. I disagree. Sex is an act, a pleasurable act and nobody should be shunned or looked down on because they had sex, unless it was not consensual on their partner's side.

Masturbation - I was floored when President Kimble said in the General Conference that masturbation is wrong and people who practice it would be condemned. What a silly thing!

Reading the bible and the BOM just convinced me how looney this whole religion thing is. It was insane, not to mention a very dull read! Blech!

None of those hot, sexy Mormon boys were interested in me! :D

And last, and not least: I don't believe in god. (Yes, I know I already mentioned that, but it is really the primary reason). If I believed in god and the religion, I probably could have rationalized away the other crap.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by sackett
Tell about the spiritual garment. I love that one.

Temple garments? They are special garments worn under the clothes, and they supposedly provide some type of protection. I never obtained these and it is my understanding that more information is given on them once one reaches an age when they are to be worn. I do remember that in Hayward, CA on Mission Blvd., across from a huge cemetary is shop that specialize in these garments.

[TeaBag420]

Originally posted by Chanileslie
Actually in the Mormon religion those who are not a member are referred to as gentiles, even Jews.


1 often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew
2 : HEATHEN, PAGAN
3 often capitalized : a non-Mormon

I stand corrected. Thank you. But how many people do I have to get to agree to call cats "gentiles" before it makes it into the dictionary? Interesting. One word with two contradictory definitions. Jews are gentiles, yet Jews are not gentiles. Mormons are gentiles, yet Mormons are not gentiles. I propose that we discard the Mormon definition.


Creeping Humpty-Dumptyism.

If Jesus appeared to the Indians, how come the Indians weren't Mormons when the Pilgrims came here? Mormonism makes even less sense than Catholicism.

[TeaBag420]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
I don't know how to break this to you but MacArthur was one of ours too.

Yeah, I'm aware of that, DA. Look at the context.

He loved his mamooo.

[Scot C. Trypal]

Chanileslie,
They are special garments worn under the clothes, and they supposedly provide some type of protection.

Their efficacy is questionable at best. From my teen years, I know they don’t even slow down evil seducers who’re after those “sexy Mormon boys�. :)

Your split with the LDS church sounds similar to mine. But, as I was raised plain protestant, I kind of see my LDS phase as the last death throws of my Christianity.

TeaBag420,
If Jesus appeared to the Indians, how come the Indians weren't Mormons when the Pilgrims came here? Mormonism makes even less sense than Catholicism.

I understand they are supposed to be of the tribe that went evil (thus the dark skin you see :rolleyes: ).

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by TeaBag420

If Jesus appeared to the Indians, how come the Indians weren't Mormons when the Pilgrims came here? Mormonism makes even less sense than Catholicism. [/B]

According to the stories (and it ahs been a long, long time since I read them so I can't remember a lot of detail), the Indians we know today were the descendants of a group called the 'Lamanites' who worshipped false gods and broke away from the folowers of the God of the bible (This group is called 'Nephites'). Warfare between these groups wiped out the Nephites until only the Lamanites were left on this side of the Atlantic.

Sadly, this story has led to a lot of prejudice towards Indians from Mormons through the ages. Even today, Mormons tend to be either prejudiced or patronizing towards them, in my opinion.

[sackett]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
....Sadly, this story has led to a lot of prejudice towards Indians from Mormons through the ages. Even today, Mormons tend to be either prejudiced or patronizing towards them, in my opinion.
Not just Mormons, but Western whites in general. But then Westerners tend to look down on Mormons, Mexicans, blacks, Jews, Catholics, and easterners. Believe me, it's tough to find a friend when you come from way out West.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by sackett
Not just Mormons, but Western whites in general. But then Westerners tend to look down on Mormons, Mexicans, blacks, Jews, Catholics, and easterners. Believe me, it's tough to find a friend when you come from way out West.

Well, I was born and raised in Nevada and I don't think it's that bad today (though as far as blacks go, Nevada had a reputation as the 'Mississippi of the West' up until the '70s, as I have heard it)

Of course, I tend to notice and react to prejudice towards Indians since most of my family is Paiute (I am white, but I grew up on a reservation. It's a long story), so even the indian thing could just be my perception.

[cbish]

chanileslie wrote:
I have never drank so much Kool-aide or ate so much Jello as when I was in the Mormon church - they are dietary musts, I think.

Mormon dietary musts......potatoes and Cream of Mushroom soup.:D

This was one of my coping hypothesis that I've developed; 'Mormons won't spend money on food.'

I've found the Mormon diet to be very basic. Meat (usually pot roast) and potatoes. Very bland I might add. Feed a Buffalo Wing to a mormon and you'll kill him. I thought it was just my in-laws but so far, it's been universal.

Ice Cream. I'll eat more ice cream on one weekend than I will for the rest of the year combined. I met my wife while she was still attending BYU. I went to visit her one weekend and we attended a basketball game. After the game, instead of going to a bar (which I would've done), we went to the largest ice cream palor I've ever seen. It was the size of a WalMart. There had to be 3,000 people there. All eating ice cream. That's when I knew I was on another planet.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by cbish
chanileslie wrote:


Mormon dietary musts......potatoes and Cream of Mushroom soup.:D

This was one of my coping hypothesis that I've developed; 'Mormons won't spend money on food.'

I've found the Mormon diet to be very basic. Meat (usually pot roast) and potatoes. Very bland I might add. Feed a Buffalo Wing to a mormon and you'll kill him. I thought it was just my in-laws but so far, it's been universal.

Ice Cream. I'll eat more ice cream on one weekend than I will for the rest of the year combined. I met my wife while she was still attending BYU. I went to visit her one weekend and we attended a basketball game. After the game, instead of going to a bar (which I would've done), we went to the largest ice cream palor I've ever seen. It was the size of a WalMart. There had to be 3,000 people there. All eating ice cream. That's when I knew I was on another planet.

Oohh, yeah, I forgot about the ice cream. We must have had ice cream socials at least once to twice a month!

I don't remember the food being all that bland, only that Kool-aide and Jello seemed pervasive!

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
yes he is just one guy, and he is rather like the pope in the sense of being the head of the church and is considered to have sort of a special connection to God from whence he draws his inspiration to lead. He is called a living prophet because he is literally considered to be a prophet . He does have a 'quorum' of twelve 'apostles' to assist him though.

He doesn't get the silly hat though. In every picture I have ever seen of him he was wearing a business suit.

Thanks Nyarlathotep and Chani

Interesting I didnt know that. Im not big on the prophet term but I understand some form of church government.

But do either of you know what his spriitual side is ie is it like when a catholic recognizes the pope as Gods rep here on earth?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan


But do either of you know what his spriitual side is ie is it like when a catholic recognizes the pope as Gods rep here on earth?

I would say that is accurate. What the Prophet says is supposed to be coming straight from Upstairs. I.e. when the church banned Polygamy it wasn't just a decision made by the Prophet, it was considered a decision made by God and passed down through the prophet.

[cbish]

Chanileslie wrote:

I don't remember the food being all that bland,

Food happens to be one of my passions. I love to cook. My mormon family has been a great strain in this area.

They have very simple tastes. My brother-in-law refused to eat his spaghetti in marinara after one bite at a fine Italian restaurant (I told him he wouldn't like it.) and pronounced to the table, "Just give me some Rague!" Salad = iceberg lettuce & ranch dressing (yum).

They buy the cheapest food possible. They want me to cook for them, but I can't have them go to the grocery store with me. I thought my mother-in-law was going to have an aneurism when I bought steaks that were over $5.00 a pound.

If you "define" a food, it had better be as advertised. I made a white bean chili once. Because I called it a chili, it should have been Dennison's out of the can. They wouldn't eat it. I have to call it 'spicey bean soup'.

Again, I thought it was my querky family, but I've been validated at every other mormon function I've attended.:D

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by cbish
Chanileslie wrote:


Food happens to be one of my passions. I love to cook. My mormon family has been a great strain in this area.

They have very simple tastes. My brother-in-law refused to eat his spaghetti in marinara after one bite at a fine Italian restaurant (I told him he wouldn't like it.) and pronounced to the table, "Just give me some Rague!" Salad = iceberg lettuce & ranch dressing (yum).

They buy the cheapest food possible. They want me to cook for them, but I can't have them go to the grocery store with me. I thought my mother-in-law was going to have an aneurism when I bought steaks that were over $5.00 a pound.

If you "define" a food, it had better be as advertised. I made a white bean chili once. Because I called it a chili, it should have been Dennison's out of the can. They wouldn't eat it. I have to call it 'spicey bean soup'.

Again, I thought it was my querky family, but I've been validated at every other mormon function I've attended.:D

Well, you can ask Chani about my cooking and tastes (which both tend toward the insanely hot and spicy) and these have remained unchanged sisnce my Mormon days. So you now know of at least ONE exception.

[Scot C. Trypal]

Originally posted by cbish
Chanileslie wrote:

...Again, I thought it was my querky family, but I've been validated at every other mormon function I've attended.:D

Same experience here with one exception to the rule, Mormons who spent their mission in the more exotic (relative to LDS culture) locals. You can only hold out for so long in Korea, for example, before you starve or develop a taste for kim chi.