Quantum- Photons, Waves, Gravity Etc.--Homeopathy?

[Kumar]

Hello all,

As mentioned by me in other topics--apart from other points about possible working of homeopathic/TRS remedies, Technicals as Quantum-- Photons, Waves, Gravity etc. are some concept which possibily can be related to it. In the interest of addition to scientific knowledge--we can/should always try to explore & check all posssibilities within the available or in future expectations of scientific knowledge esp. if systems alike these have mass existing & well distributed in earth's population since long & may benefit to humanity furthur by their least side/adverse/toxic effects as well as low expenses & least suffering based.

Under the above consideration/thought, just for good of all in general, I am trying & you may also contribute accordingly.

Bit technical for me, but I still quote here some existing concepts-may be relevant to it.

Photon
In physics, the photon (from Greek φοτος, meaning light) is a quantum of excitation of the quantised electromagnetic field and is one of the elementary particles studied by quantum electrodynamics (QED) which is the oldest part of the Standard Model of particle physics.

In layman's terms, photons are the building blocks of electromagnetic radiation: that is, a photon is a "particle" of light, although, according to quantum mechanics, all particles, including the photon, also have some of the properties of a wave.

Creation
Photons can be produced in a variety of ways, including emission from electrons as they change energy states or orbitals. Photons can be created by nuclear transitions, particle-antiparticle annihilation, or any fluctuations in an electromagnetic field. Special devices like masers can create coherent low energy photon radiation.

Molecular absorption
A typical molecule, M, has many different energy levels. When a molecule absorbs a photon, its energy is increased by an amount equal to the energy of the photon. The molecule then enters an excited state.

State in media
In a material, photons couple to the excitations of the medium and behave differently. These excitations can often be described as quasi-particles (such as phonons and excitons); that is, as quantized wave- or particle-like entities propagating though the matter. "Coupling" means here that photons can transform into these excitations (that is, the photon gets absorbed and medium excited, involving the creation of a quasi-particle) and vice versa (the quasi-particle transforms back into a photon, or the medium relaxes by re-emitting the energy as a photon). However, as these transformations are only possibilities, they are not bound to happen and what actually propagates through the medium is a polariton; that is, a quantum-mechanical superposition of the energy quantum being a photon and of it being one of the quasi-particle matter excitations.

According to the rules of quantum mechanics, a measurement (here: just observing what happens to the polariton) breaks this superposition; that is, the quantum either gets absorbed in the medium and stays there (likely to happen in opaque media) or it re-emerges as photon from the surface into space (likely to happen in transparent media).

Matter excitations have a non-linear dispersion relation; that is, their momentum is not proportional to their energy. Hence, these particles propagate slower than the vacuum speed of light. (The propagation speed is the derivative of the dispersion relation with respect to momentum.) This is the formal reason why light is slower in media (such as glass) than in vacuum. (The reason for diffraction can be deduced from this by Huygens' principle.) Another way of phrasing it is to say that the photon, by being blended with the matter excitation to form a polariton, acquires an effective mass, which means that it cannot travel at c, the speed of light in a vacuum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon

Wave
A wave is a disturbance that propagates. Apart from electromagnetic radiation, and probably gravitational radiation, which can travel through vacuum, waves exist in a medium (which on deformation is capable of producing elastic restoring forces) through which they travel and can transfer energy from one place to another without any of the particles of the medium being displaced permanently; i.e. there is no associated mass transport. Instead, any particular point oscillates around a fixed position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave

Gravity
Gravitation is the tendency of masses to move toward each other.

Gravity, and the acceleration of objects near the Earth:
The acceleration due to the apparent "force of gravity" that "attracts" objects to the surface of the earth is not quite the same as the acceleration that is measured for a free-falling body at the surface of the earth (in a frame at rest on the surface). This is because of the rotation of the earth, which leads (except at the poles) to a centrifugal force which slightly lessens the acceleration observed.This Link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity#Gravity.2C_and_the_acceleration_of_objects _near_the_Earth)

*Gravitational potential energy
This energy is stored as a result of the elevated position of an object such as a rock on top of a hill or water behind a dam.
Potential Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_energy)


As per discussions in Electromagnetic....topic, It was discussed that:-

Photons can be created by rubbing two substances/material.

Photons can be absorbed in material & can change properties of materials.

Energy/wave propagation was partialy discussed but not concluded.

Applied Mechnical Kinetic Energy(KE) can be stored in materials(subject to some heat loss) as Potential Energy(PE).

Is it ok?

Best wishes.

[davefoc]

I'm not sure where you're going here Kumar, but I'll take a shot at your summary.

Photons can be created by rubbing two substances/material.

I believe what was discussed in the thread you mentioned was the magnetization of a material by rubbing it with a magnetized material. I don't really understand this process very well and would end up just repeating what MRC_Hans had to say about it.

Rubbing together two materials will create photons however, because when materials are rubbed together they are heated due to friction and when a material is heated it emits additional photons.

Photons can be absorbed in material & can change properties of materials.

The absorption of a photon by a material can affect it in three ways:
1. It can heat it
2. It can cause a chemical change (photosynthesis for instance)
3. It can ionize it. That is it can cause an electron to separate from an atom giving that atom a net positive charge. The ionization of atoms can lead to changes in molecules. For instance, DNA can be harmed which can lead to mutations.

So I think your statement is correct here.

Energy/wave propagation was partialy discussed but not concluded.

Don't have anything to say about this.

Applied Mechnical Kinetic Energy(KE) can be stored in materials(subject to some heat loss) as Potential Energy(PE).

The statement that potential energy is stored in a material is a little misleading if not just wrong. The potenital energy is stored in a system. For instance when a ball is held a meter above the earth the system of the ball and the earth have a certain amount of potential energy as a result of the position of the ball. When the ball is released the potential energy is gradually converted to kinetic energy until just before the ball strikes the ground when all the potential energy has been converted to kinetic energy. The kinectic energy will be converted to heat energy as the ball comes to rest.

[Kumar]

davefoc,

Welcome here & many thanks for clearing it.

As quoted by me
", the quantum either gets absorbed in the medium and stays there (likely to happen in opaque media) or it re-emerges as photon from the surface into space (likely to happen in transparent media)."

Can you explain meaning of it?

[davefoc]

Kumar,
I am afraid that this is an area where I don't have a particularly good understanding. I will try to explain the situation as I understand it though.

The sentence is a bit misleading I think. It could be interpretted to mean that the absorbed photon is trapped in some way in the material. This is not the case. The photon is gone when it is absorbed by the material. The energy of the photon remains however. That energy might exist in several different forms. It could have been absorbed by an atom that now has an electron in a higher energy shell than it did before it absorbed the photon. It could have increased the amplitude of the random vibrations of the molecules in the absorbing material (i.e. it heated the material), it could have caused a chemical reaction that resulted in new compounds that store more energy than the compounds before the photon was absorbed (photosynthesis) and ffinally it could have caused an electron to be separated from an atom (ionization).

Which one of these things happens depends on the frequency of the photon and the material. Only high energy photons in xray frequencies and above can cause ionization.

Beause of your interest in homeopathy I will add this note:

There is nothing here which remotely supports the notion of homeopathy. If you find something in what I have said that seems to support the notion of homeopathy you have misinterpreted me or I have misspoken.

There are no current theories of physics that are accepted in mainstream science that support the notion of homeopathy. This is not in anyway a failure of mainstream science. There is no reliable evidence that there is any such thing as an homeopathic effect so it is perfectly reasonable that mainstream science wouldn't be able to explain an effect which doesn't exist.

There is however considerable evidence that the placebo effect is real and there is enormous evidence that people delude themselves about the value of all sorts of useless treatments. I realize it is unlikely you will take my advice here, but IMHO those are the two places to focus your efforts on if you are searching for an explanation of homeopathy.

I enjoy thinking about science and some of your questions have caused me to think out issues a little better and thereby understand things a little bit better than I did before. For that I thank you.

[Kumar]

Hello, Have You become soafraid of, that if homeopathy may get some technical/scientific explanation by this. It is not so simple esp. under $IM umbrella. I feel:-

It may be the prime duty of a healer, a scientist, CMS, CS or anybody related to these-- "To treat, research & keep hopes till life is there", otherwise it will be just run away from the duties/ responsibilities. Accordingly, there is still much life in homeopathy/TRS. :con2:

About gravitation:-

How the gravitation effect can be compared to somewhat "Tornado's type effect".

"Air revolves around a tornado in a circular orbit because it is being sucked in towards the low pressure or partial vacuum at the center and, at the same time, being centrifuged out of the tornado. These opposing forces are the same on all sides of the tornado. Hence, tornadoes have to be round by symmetry. Satellites orbit around the earth for a similar reason, except the inward force in this case is gravity."

Does the earth's revolution with atmosphere is somewhat alike it? Do the push & pull there on earth alike it? If yes, Does the gravitational force is somewhat like pull in centre or it is a true magnetic type effect? If magnetic type--how it can attract non-magnetic materials & keep those stable on earth?

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
As quoted by me
", the quantum either gets absorbed in the medium and stays there (likely to happen in opaque media) or it re-emerges as photon from the surface into space (likely to happen in transparent media)."

Can you explain meaning of it?
Light goes through transparent materials. Light doesn't go through opaque materials. Pretty simple? Because the light is absorbed by the opaque material.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Kumar
I feel:-

It may be the prime duty of a healer, a scientist, CMS, CS or anybody related to these-- "To treat, research & keep hopes till life is there", otherwise it will be just run away from the duties/ responsibilities. Accordingly, there is still much life in homeopathy/TRS.

It's also the duty of a healer or scientist not to create false hopes where none are justified, and where false hope can be harmful. The primary duty of a healer is to do no harm. Telling lies to create false hope is harmful.

"There is still much life in homeopathy" is a lie. There is no polite way to say it. If your duties/responsibilities require that you be a liar, a cheat, and a scoundrel --- then get yourself a new duty.

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
Hello, Have You become soafraid of, that if homeopathy may get some technical/scientific explanation by this.
This stuff isn't going to explain homeopathy. Because there's nothing to explain.
About gravitation:-

How the gravitation effect can be compared to somewhat "Tornado's type effect".

"Air revolves around a tornado in a circular orbit because it is being sucked in towards the low pressure or partial vacuum at the center and, at the same time, being centrifuged out of the tornado. These opposing forces are the same on all sides of the tornado. Hence, tornadoes have to be round by symmetry. Satellites orbit around the earth for a similar reason, except the inward force in this case is gravity."

Does the earth's revolution with atmosphere is somewhat alike it? Do the push & pull there on earth alike it? If yes, Does the gravitational force is somewhat like pull in centre or it is a true magnetic type effect? If magnetic type--how it can attract non-magnetic materials & keep those stable on earth?
Gravitation is a purely central force, it does not cause rotation by itself. However, if you have a region of material with a net angular momentum, that momentum is conserved, so the more compressed the material gets, the faster it spins (angular momentum being roughly the product of mass, length, and rotational speed).

A vortex in a fluid (like the air) also tend to be conserved, although fluids involve some frictional losses which means vortexes don't stay around forever. Rotational energy in the atmosphere is generally due to Coriolis force, which is due to the rotation of the earth. The air moving along with the earth at different latitudes is moving at different speeds, but air is viscous, so there's a shearing force which causes rotation. In some cases (like hurricanes) that vorticity gets concentrated in a small region, and the wind speeds become very high.

Differences in air speed locally can also produce local vortices, and that's what you get with a tornado.

[Kumar]

Davefoc,

By reading your one of the most sober & relevant reply, I think, I must leave furthur efforts, as all or every concept would had already being looked in to fully & properly. I was bit confused about trapping of photons as it was mentioed on Wikipedia-photon,State in media. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon) I was thinking that if remedy substance is succused or triturated in some opaqe/cloured bottle or container--probably, it may be trapping photons or its energy. I was also confused: how applied mechnical KE on rubbing of magnet on iron results in its storing as PE or magnetic effect(energy). Accordingly, why it could not happen somewhat similarily in other materials on homeopathic preparations because storing PE in iron is said to be as a result of applied KE not any transfer of magnetic effect/alignment. I don't know, but photons released as heat on rubbing magnet or preparation of homeopathic remedies may be similar(can be less also but should not be more) provided same strokes/energy is taken into account.

Anyway, if you deny it--I can just think as you adviced, because I consider other effects (not only placebo) are also much more than sufficient for common problems--esp. when I consider 'specific & most concentrated thought for long can be the one of the best healer'.

Best wishes.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zombified
Light goes through transparent materials. Light doesn't go through opaque materials. Pretty simple? Because the light is absorbed by the opaque material.

What happens to this absorbed light by the opaque material?

Furthur, it is to be better looked for earth's GE alike tornado type effect. If you revolve a ball or a disk very fast--will you not get tornado type effect around it? Can't be earth pull os push and planet to plant pull be some what like it?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by new drkitten
It's also the duty of a healer or scientist not to create false hopes where none are justified, and where false hope can be harmful. The primary duty of a healer is to do no harm. Telling lies to create false hope is harmful.

"There is still much life in homeopathy" is a lie. There is no polite way to say it. If your duties/responsibilities require that you be a liar, a cheat, and a scoundrel --- then get yourself a new duty. One can't think alike it as you thought unless is biased, or ignorant or 'with vested interest' esp. when anyone can see so much life in homeopathy by its mass existing........with least.....in so many public. I will wait & go on trying till I can see it 'as absolute' or 'it dies in itself if something wrong in it'. Moreover, so much well distributed modern people of current times can't be as fool or illitrate as you find them--mostly.

Pls try to respect mass existing since long & well distributed concept as well least...considerations.

[garys_2k]

Originally posted by Kumar
What happens to this absorbed light by the opaque material?

Here's an excellent explanation of photon-matter interactions:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mod3.html#c1


Furthur, it is to be better looked for earth's GE alike tornado type effect. If you revolve a ball or a disk very fast--will you not get tornado type effect around it? Can't be earth pull os push and planet to plant pull be some what like it?
Low pressure air pulls other air toward it, and the existing rotational momentum of that inward moving air causes it to spiral. This is roughly analogous to objects in orbit around a mass, they are attracted to that mass and are in freefall toward it, but their angular momentum prevents them from reaching the mass. The analogy breaks down pretty quickly as gravity is something of a pseudoforce, but that's the idea in general.

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
What happens to this absorbed light by the opaque material?
Usually it turns into heat.
Furthur, it is to be better looked for earth's GE alike tornado type effect. If you revolve a ball or a disk very fast--will you not get tornado type effect around it? Can't be earth pull os push and planet to plant pull be some what like it?
Vortices in air whether due to an object moving through the air (like a spinning ball or an airplane wing) are due to the viscosity of air.

This doesn't have anything to do with gravity.

[Kumar]

garys_2k,Zombified

Thanks for the good link. It shows that photons can leave some effects on matters & these are not just lost as heat.

While rubbing magnet on iron, photons are generated & Effect of rubbing is left in iron piece as magnetic effect. Alike, while triturating/sucussing-why applied energy's effect can't be left on substances which are triturated & sucussed.

Can't these effect as you mentioned, not be the secondary effects of Tornado's type prime effect?

[Kumar]

TO ADD:-


Gravitational radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave)
In physics, gravitational radiation is energy that is transmitted through waves in the gravitational field of space-time, according to Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity: The Einstein field equations imply that any accelerated mass radiates energy this way, in the same way as the Maxwell equations that any accelerated charge radiates electromagnetic energy.

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
Thanks for the good link. It shows that photons can leave some effects on matters & these are not just lost as heat.
Yup. many effects. "Usually" heat, but by no means always.
While rubbing magnet on iron, photons are generated & Effect of rubbing is left in iron piece as magnetic effect.
It's not rubbing that causes a ferromagnetic to be magnetized by another magnet, it's the mere proximity. Also, ferromagnets (iron) are special materials in that they have the ability to be magnetized in this way. This effect is not universal - it only works on ferromagnetics.
Alike, while triturating/sucussing-why applied energy's effect can't be left on substances which are triturated & sucussed.
For a couple of reasons. First, as I said above, permanent magnetization is a special property of ferromagnetics, it is not universal to all materials. Second, in you are succussing or activating your remedy or whatever, what sort of field are you putting the thing in? I know you believe there's an energy of some sort there, but it's not any sort of field that makes sense in modern physics. So from the point of view of physics, there's (a) nothing that can cause an effect and (b) nothing that can be effected in the way you want.
Can't these effect as you mentioned, not be the secondary effects of Tornado's type prime effect?
I'm sorry, but I do not understand what tornados have to do with any of this.

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
TO ADD:-
Likewise, while this is both true and quite interesting, I fail to see what it has to do with magnetization, tornados, or homeopathy. For one thing, the effect of gravity is many, many orders of magnitude weaker than electromagnetic forces.

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zombified
Yup. many effects. "Usually" heat, but by no means always.[b]

I meant effect as sunburn, cancer etc. These are permanent type effects due to photons.

[b]It's not rubbing that causes a ferromagnetic to be magnetized by another magnet, it's the mere proximity. Also, ferromagnets (iron) are special materials in that they have the ability to be magnetized in this way. This effect is not universal - it only works on ferromagnetics.

Why then there is a differnce in aquired magnetic effect between iron piece just kept with in field AND on rubbing?

For a couple of reasons. First, as I said above, permanent magnetization is a special property of ferromagnetics, it is not universal to all materials. Second, in you are succussing or activating your remedy or whatever, what sort of field are you putting the thing in? I know you believe there's an energy of some sort there, but it's not any sort of field that makes sense in modern physics. So from the point of view of physics, there's (a) nothing that can cause an effect and (b) nothing that can be effected in the way you want.

Some properties are there in all materials. Its magnitude is differant--and for that reason harash energies are applied on triturating & succussing as more magnetization is possible by rubbing.

I'm sorry, but I do not understand what tornados have to do with any of this.

I am just trying to understand that whether gravity is magnetic based or tornado type effect based OR both? Push & Pull are there in tornado as in magnet. But earth only shows pull on earth-if it is TE, where push goes--can be a question?

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zombified
[B]I meant effect as sunburn, cancer etc. These are permanent type effects due to photons.
Well, that's partly heating and partly ionization. The energy always ends up as heat regardless of whether there's a chemical change or not.
Why then there is a differnce in aquired magnetic effect between iron piece just kept with in field AND on rubbing?
So far as I'm aware, rubbing has no additional effect on a ferromagnet. Certainly it is not required to magnetize a ferromagnetic material.
Some properties are there in all materials. Its magnitude is differant--and for that reason harash energies are applied on triturating & succussing as more magnetization is possible by rubbing.
Ferromagnetism is specific to ferromagnetic materials. The para- and diamagnetic properties of other materials are not the same thing, because such materials do not retain magnetization when they are removed from the magnetic field. So water or chemicals in a remedy do not transfer any properties or field via magnetism. I'm pretty sure this has been covered already, no?
I am just trying to understand that whether gravity is magnetic based or tornado type effect based OR both? Push & Pull are there in tornado as in magnet. But earth only shows pull on earth-if it is TE, where push goes--can be a question?
Gravity is gravity. Magnetism is related to electricity - they're different things. Macroscopically, tornados are fluid dynamics (air is a fluid), in other words, mechanical.

Now, that's not to say there aren't analogies or common principles. For example, conservation of momentum, energy, and angular momentum underly all of these phenomena.

Gravity is always attractive (pull, as you say) because the force of gravity is always proportional to the product of how much mass two objects have. You can't have negative (less than zero mass), so the force is always attractive. However, electrical forces are proportional to electrical charge, which can be either positive or negative. So the product can be positive or negative, which correspond to repulsive or attractive forces (push and pull).

Tornados are a matter of air pressure. I guess by pull here you are talking about the suction inside a tornado, not the rotational vortex of the circulating air. No, that's not related to gravity, that's just a difference in air pressure, like a vacuum cleaner really.

If your question is about whether the rotation of the earth causes a suction force of gravity, the answer is no. Gravity is due to the mass of objects, not their motion.

Now, there are some fascinating and deep relationships between magnetism and angular momentum in quantum mechanics, but that's pretty much beyond the scope of the conversation... but I suppose this will soon turn to madness anyway.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zombified
Well, that's partly heating and partly ionization. The energy always ends up as heat regardless of whether there's a chemical change or not.

You have mentioned the cause, I want to see the effect. Partly heating and partly ionization is the cause whereas sun burn, cancer etc. is the effect of photons. It means photons have left some effects(as may be in iron converted to permanent magnet on rubbing).

So far as I'm aware, rubbing has no additional effect on a ferromagnet. Certainly it is not required to magnetize a ferromagnetic material.

I think, it was discussed in Electro...topic & was clarified that mechnical energy so applied on rubbing is converted into new magnetic field. I just give two quotes:-
Kumar:
Q: By passing magnetic effect from one source(say a permanent magnet) to another magnetic material (say iron), Does the magnetic effect in first source diminish in any way or total magnetic effect is increased if we add magnetic effect of both alike fire spreads? Is it also applicable similarily to other energies?

A: A magnet field represents an energy. It is not energy itself (it is a force), but to create a magnet field, some energy must be invested, which is then bound in the field.

When you magnetize a piece of steel by moving a permanent magnet along it, the magnet does not loose any strength, so where does the energy for the new magnet field come from? It comes from the motion of the magnet. You spend energy moving the two objects. There is a resistance has to be overcome, and it is this energy that goes into the fresh field.

So, similar to all other types of energy, the law of conservation of enegy implies.

Hans
Kumar:

Q: Do you mean to say that applied energy is then stored in iron piece? Is there no heat loss in this?

A: There is plenty of loss. The amount of mechanical energy needed to create a small field like this is so small that you'd never feel the resistance.

Q: Furthur, when we keep an iron piece in magnetic field then also it become magnetic. There is no applied energy to it. How then this energy come from?

A: Yes, there is energy applied to it, and it is essentially the same as before: When you put the iron piece near to the magnet, it is being attracted to it, you might say it "goes downhill" magnetically speaking. Then you leave it there for some time, and when you return to remove it, it has become magnetized; it will have a south pole adjacent to the north pole of the magnet, and vice versa. This means that the attraction between the magnet and the iron piece (now a magnet too) will be greater, it will have crept farther "downhill". To remove it, you need to use more energy than you (theooretically) received when you neared it to the magnet; you will have lost energy, and that energy is now bound in the new magnet field.

(how come I have a hunch I'm gonna regret this?)

Hans
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45723&perpage=20&pagenumber=7


Ferromagnetism is specific to ferromagnetic materials. The para- and diamagnetic properties of other materials are not the same thing, because such materials do not retain magnetization when they are removed from the magnetic field. So water or chemicals in a remedy do not transfer any properties or field via magnetism. I'm pretty sure this has been covered already, no?

It may not be just equal to ferromagnetic materials but still something is there.

Gravity is gravity. Magnetism is related to electricity - they're different things.

How than magnet is moved towards north & south pole?

Macroscopically, tornados are fluid dynamics (air is a fluid), in other words, mechanical.
Now, that's not to say there aren't analogies or common principles. For example, conservation of momentum, energy, and angular momentum underly all of these phenomena.

Suppose, if we rotate a solid ball at high speed(assume at earth speed)--what will be the attraction or repulsion on and aroud this ball?

Gravity is always attractive (pull, as you say) because the force of gravity is always proportional to the product of how much mass two objects have. You can't have negative (less than zero mass), so the force is always attractive.

Suction is also always attractive. Photons have no mass--does gravity not effect photons,electrons--or energy,waves etc.

However, electrical forces are proportional to electrical charge, which can be either positive or negative. So the product can be positive or negative, which correspond to repulsive or attractive forces (push and pull).

As I asked what about magnet attraction or repulsion towards north & south poles.

Tornados are a matter of air pressure. I guess by pull here you are talking about the suction inside a tornado, not the rotational vortex of the circulating air. No, that's not related to gravity, that's just a difference in air pressure, like a vacuum cleaner really.

I am trying to show by example: gravity effect alike tornado effect.

You says it is niether TTE(tarnado type effect) nor magnetic effect. Then what type of effect is this which hold us on earth?

If your question is about whether the rotation of the earth causes a suction force of gravity, the answer is no. Gravity is due to the mass of objects, not their motion.

I asked above then what type of effect is it? Mass of object may be secondary to attraction force(due to suction)--which may decide its intensity or speed to move towards earth.

What does it mean that 'earth is a big magnet'?

Now, there are some fascinating and deep relationships between magnetism and angular momentum in quantum mechanics, but that's pretty much beyond the scope of the conversation... but I suppose this will soon turn to madness anyway.

Can you indicate it, somewhat?

[geni]

You have mentioned the cause, I want to see the effect. Partly heating and partly ionization is the cause whereas sun burn, cancer etc. is the effect of photons. It means photons have left some effects(as may be in iron converted to permanent magnet on rubbing).


a material getting hotter is an effect


It may not be just equal to ferromagnetic materials but still something is there.


There isn't. If there was there would be some very stange and noticible effects (and certian techniques for measuring oxidation states would not work)




How than magnet is moved towards north & south pole?


Because earth has a standing magnetic field


Suction is also always attractive. Photons have no mass--does gravity not effect photons,electrons--or energy,waves etc.


Gravity curves space/time. These curves affect photons. Ekectrons do have a mass.

However, electrical forces are proportional to electrical charge, which can be either positive or negative. So the product can be positive or negative, which correspond to repulsive or attractive forces (push and pull).

As I asked what about magnet attraction or repulsion towards north & south poles.



I am trying to show by example: gravity effect alike tornado effect.

You says it is niether TTE(tarnado type effect) nor magnetic effect. Then what type of effect is this which hold us on earth?


Gravity.



I asked above then what type of effect is it? Mass of object may be secondary to attraction force(due to suction)--which may decide its intensity or speed to move towards earth.


Gravity. Your questions makes about as much sense as asking what type of plant is salt.


What does it mean that 'earth is a big magnet'?


it means earth has it's own standing magnetic field.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by geni
a material getting hotter is an effect

Ok,sorry--a material getting hotter is an effect, but what is the result?



There isn't. If there was there would be some very stange and noticible effects (and certian techniques for measuring oxidation states would not work)

We are discussing only-- some very stange and noticible effects on which certian techniques for measuring oxidation states do not work.:D

Because earth has a standing magnetic field.
it means earth has it's own standing magnetic field.

Means? Earth has magnetic effect. Is there any relation between gravity & earth's magnetic field?

Gravity curves space/time. These curves affect photons. Ekectrons do have a mass.

???

However, electrical forces are proportional to electrical charge, which can be either positive or negative. So the product can be positive or negative, which correspond to repulsive or attractive forces (push and pull).

As I asked what about magnet attraction or repulsion towards north & south poles.

Gravity.
Gravity. Your questions makes about as much sense as asking what type of plant is salt.

What makes influence of gravity or gravitational force which causes acceleration of body ?
Acceleration of gravity
the acceleration of a body in free fall under the influence of earth's gravity expressed as the rate of increase of velocity per unit of time and assigned the standard value of 980.665 centimeters per second per second.




[/B]

[Correa Neto]

Kumar,

Gravity does not needs a medium (a substance, not people who supposedly contact dea people) to propagate. The sun's gravitational influence keeps planets under its influence but there's nothing but vacuum (for all practical purposes), between them.

Tornadoes are vortexes. Vortexes need a fluid (gas or liquid) to be created, the forces that generate them need fluids to propagate. They are generated by turbulence -perturbations- in the fluid's flow, when it ceases to be laminar. Look at a stream. You'll see plenty of small vortexes, generated by irregularities on the stream's bed or behind objects floating on the water. No "external force" generated them, just interactions between the fluid and an object.

Gravity is created by mass. It can be seen as an inherent property of mass. You have mass, you generate a gravitational "field" that can be described (mathematically) as a curvature on a surface created by space and time. The bigger the mass, the deeper the curve. Think of the following as an analogy or parable. Imagine a plane composed by fabric, with a circular sag at its centre, created by a steel ball. Now imagine a small glass glass ball being thrown rolling over the plane in straight lines. If it passes far from the sag, its trajectory do not change. However if the glass ball passes at a certain distance, say, at the fringes of the curvature of the sag, it will have its trajectory deflected, making a curve. Eventually it will spiral and enter the sag created by the steel ball. The spiral trajectory is an orbit, and since it s a spiral, eventually the object will fall after a number of turns, since the radius becomes smaller with time - unless its moving too fast, since in this case, after some orbits it will escape, think as an outward-moving spiral. That's valid for sattelites, planets, asteroids, etc. A fluid moving under the influence of gravity may or may not generate a vortex. It will depend on the type of the flow and if the object generating the gravity well is rotating or not.

Please note that this was an analogy, a parable.

The similarity between vortexes seen in fluids and the spiral arms of galaxy or the spiral orbit of a sattelite does not imply on a similar origin. They are created by different phenomena and described by different equations.

A last, some words of caution: in science one does not works by seeking isolated sentences that may eventually be interpretated (or mounted) as to fit with a preconceived idea. Also, note that its not just a matter of saying that a given effect may influence. You have to prove it theoretically or hipothetically by means of math equations or empirically by experimentation. So far, there's nothing but wild expeculations. Homeopaths just say "quantum effects could..." or something like this without really understanding what they are saying or without providing any evidence, theoretical, hipothetical or empirical. It may sound consistent, but its nothing but wild baseless speculation. Basically it has the same scientific value of Star Trek technobabble.

[Mongpoovian]

The "sunburn" as we know it is actually caused by your own body. UV light causes dimers to spontaneously form in your DNA, and the redness and burning is your body killing all the damaged cells, not some "photon aftereffect".

Earth has a mgnetic field, yes, but this is unrelated to the earth's gravity.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Originally posted by Zombified
[B]Suppose, if we rotate a solid ball at high speed(assume at earth speed)--what will be the attraction or repulsion on and aroud this ball?

Kumar,

If you rotate a ball at high speed it will have more mass (m=c^2/E) and so wil exert a stronger gravitational force on other massive objects. You can get the formulae, so do the arithmetic yourself.

Personally I think that gravity works by suction from the trunks of the four elephants that support us on the back of the giant space turtle.

Quick guys, run away now.

[Kumar]

Hello Correa Neto,

Thanks for explaination. Do you want to say that earth's atmosphere has no effect on gravity & a object falling in vacum and in open air will be at same speed & in same direction?

What are these aspects:-

"The acceleration due to gravity at the Earth's surface is approximately 9.81 m/s2, depending on the location."

"Atmospheric circulation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Atmospheric circulation is the large-scale movement of air, and the means (together with the ocean circulation, which is smaller by which heat is distributed on the surface of the Earth."

"Gravity, and the acceleration of objects near the Earth

The acceleration due to the apparent "force of gravity" that "attracts" objects to the surface of the earth is not quite the same as the acceleration that is measured for a free-falling body at the surface of the earth (in a frame at rest on the surface). This is because of the rotation of the earth, which leads (except at the poles) to a centrifugal force which slightly lessens the acceleration observed. See Coriolis effect."

Centrifugal force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_force)
Coriolis effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect)
Gravity is created by mass. It can be seen as an inherent property of mass. You have mass, you generate a gravitational "field" that can be described (mathematically) as a curvature on a surface created by space and time. The bigger the mass, the deeper the curve.

Apart from mass & centre distance-- "Gravitational Constant" is also there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/math/b65000f8f887a68545ce63eb1cada232.png

We may have also to find out , how this G comes here? :)

Thanks for your 'yet valid advice,technically- but being my duty I am just trying 'Till life is there'.;)

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Mongpoovian
The "sunburn" as we know it is actually caused by your own body. UV light causes dimers to spontaneously form in your DNA, and the redness and burning is your body killing all the damaged cells, not some "photon aftereffect".

Earth has a mgnetic field, yes, but this is unrelated to the earth's gravity. Hi Mongpoovian,

If I am not much wrong, Heat/other effects of photons or "photon aftereffect", can also be possible of other non-living substances.

You mean to say that earth's magnetic field do not effect attraction towards it in any way--or does not contribute to gravitational force/pull? Frankly, I also suspect & therefore looking at other effects--may it be a TTE on earth or on "universe" as a whole.

What does it mean:-

"A gravitation field is a field which can be superposed. For example, there are two planets 'A' and 'B', and have the same size and mass. There is zero gravity at point 'P' which is the intermediate point between planet 'A' and 'B'. This is the principle of superposition: gravity can be cancelled at the certain point between two planets.
A rotating gravitation field being synchronized with a spinning top surely exists. There are two gravitation fields around the top within the earth's gravitation field space: the earth's gravitation field and a rotating gravitation field. Given that it possible to superpose the gravitation field on another gravitation field, it should also be possible to superpose the rotating gravitation field on the earth's gravitation field."

[Correa Neto]

Soo... You've been asleep during the physics classes, eh?;)

-9.8m/s^2 is a mean, average, value for g. Gravity, as you can read from the other posts, depends on mass. The more mass, the more gravity. So, if you live in an area where rocks are dense, say basalt, then you will experience a slightly higher gravity pull than if you lived at an area composed by sandstone, that is less dense. Why? Becuase if you have two cubes, with identical volumes, one compose by sandstone and another composed by basalt, the basalt one will have more mass. Therefore it exert more gravity attraction. See those "ms" on the formula? They are actually a function of volume times density. That's why g values variate, due to compositional differences on the planet's crust.

-The atmosphere will only affect a free-falling object due to drag (friction) nothing else. I hope you do not think that a cube of wood will fall slower than a cube made of lead, providing both have the same sizes and shapes...

-Coriolis and centrifugal forces have nothing to do with gravity. Different equations and origins. If you want to know how to caculate the path of a free-falling object (dropped vertically from a certain height Z), you would have to make a vectorial chalculus with the following components:
*gravitational acceleration (force)
*atmospheric drag
*drag induced by wind
*coriolis effect
*centrifugal "force"
The first component is much bigger than the others. Drag will depend on the shape of the object and wind speed. The last two are minimal, and will be felt only in special cases (very long vertical trajectories and/or minimal influence from drag).

How the G comes out? Ever heard of constants in mathematical equations? or you've been asleep also at math classes?

Electromagnetic energy has nothing to do with gravity. Earth's magnetic field is generated by movments of the "molten" metallic core of our planet.

Please, do not "suspect", do not make baseless assumptions adnd claims! Its not just "I belive that"... Understanding of the world requires much more than intuition or inspiration. It requires transpiration, hard work testing ideas, esperimenting, etc. It also requires no preconceived ideas and beliefs. You have prejudices. You belive homeopathy works (among other things) and refuses to accept other views. You pick up senteces and pieces of sentences that in your mind seem to favor your point. That's not how it works.

[Hellbound]

Does anyone else get the feeling of trying to fill a collander up with water?

Just curious.

[Kumar]

Caving, scuba, 4X4 vehicles and create headaches in people who belive in anything whithout being presented with solid evidence

Correa Neto,

I got really impressed/surrendered, when one fire & teaches me like a 'good teacher'. Looking at your profile also, I should agree to it. Thanks & best regards for the same.

Now, please tell me if applied mechnical KE on rubbing magnet on iron piece is stored as PE in iron piece or not? If not then from where, this extra energy as magnetic effect(since remains same in origional magnet) in iron comes from?

Furthur, as we reduce the size of substance/mass--it will be having lesser gravity. Photons are just massless. Does the gravity effects photons AND if lesser the gravity more a substance is biologically effective--can be possible?

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
Now, please tell me if applied mechnical KE on rubbing magnet on iron piece is stored as PE in iron piece or not? If not then from where, this extra energy as magnetic effect(since remains same in origional magnet) in iron comes from?
Unfortunately, I was not following the E&M thread when this was discussed. However, magnetizing a ferromagnetic material does not require rubbing, or even another ferromagnet: you can magnetize a ferromagnet with a coil, for example. The energy comes from the magnetic field you put the ferromagnet into. If that magnet is another permanent ferromagnet, its own field strength will be reduced, reducing its energy density, and thus conserving energy overall.

It is not clear to me from the excerpt you posted what phenomenon Hans is talking about.
Furthur, as we reduce the size of substance/mass--it will be having lesser gravity. Photons are just massless. Does the gravity effects photons AND if lesser the gravity more a substance is biologically effective--can be possible?
Frankly Kumar, your misunderstandings of physics are so fundamental you really ought to concentrate completely on basic classical physics and forget relativity (or quantum mechanics) for the time being. This is only going to make things worse. But I know you're not going to be satisfied with that, so let's go ahead and confuse you some more.

In classical physics, gravitational forces are experienced by bodies with mass. Photons do not have mass (in strictly classical physics, they are waves, not particles) and so they are not affected by gravity.

In general relativity, gravity isn't a force. It's curvature in spacetime, which is the results from local energy density. Objects always move along straight lines, but what does it mean to have a straight line in a curved space? Well, mathematically speaking, curves called geodesics are "locally" straight (like a tangent to a curve) even if they follow a curvature through space. So when an object goes in a straight line, it's really going along a geodesic. This includes photons (whether you want to think of them as waves or particles). The result is that a photon follows the curvature of space. So, yes, photons are affected by gravity.

Now it is very important to understand the scale of this effect. In the sort of gravity you are used to dealing with (1G) this effect is so small it pretty much can't be detected. A tiny amount of shift in the positions of stars can be detected very near the sun during a total eclipse. We're talking a couple seconds of arc for photons moving through the sun's gravity over solar-system scale distances.

So does this have any biological significance? No. Because for a biological system, you're talking about a puny 1G of gravity over very tiny distances - nanometers, if you're talking about molecular effects.

[Rolfe]

I guess the observation that the people who really do actually understand this stuff properly are also quite convinced by the evidence that homoeopathy and Tissue Remedies don't do anything, won't really mean anything to Kumar.

I mean, he doesn't have a clue, nevertheless he is undoubtedly right about homoeopathy, and everybody who actually understands physics, chemistry, biochemistry, physiology, molecular biology, pharmacology and medicine is wrong....

Rolfe.

[Correa Neto]

If KE and PE stand for kinetic and potential energy, then the answer is no. They no relationship with electromagnetic forces if we are talking about Newtonian mechanics.

Kinetic energy is given by E=1/2m*v^2
Potential Energy is given by E= mgh, if we are talking about a gravity field here on Earth.

Kinetic energy is related to velocity - see now why an accident with a car running at 120km/h will be more harmful than one with a car at 60km/h, providing both are of the same model and with the same cargo?

Potential energy has to do with gravity. The higher the object is (h) the higher it is. That's why you'll be more injuried by an apple falling from the seventh floor than by an apple (with the same mass of the first one) falling from 1.5 meter above your head (the apple at the seventh floor has more potential energy avaliable to be transformed in kinetic energy). But, of course, as soon as the apple start to fall, the potential energy will start to be converted to kinetic.

You might want to check http://jersey.uoregon.edu/vlab/PotentialEnergy/

Other concepts that you seem to have difficuties are differentials, integrals, "much larger than" and "tends to". Your photon line illustrates that. It really does not matter if its the Titanic, me, or a humble photon. All of these have a minimal mass when compared to Earth's mass.

So F=G*(m1*m2)/r^2, OK? But if m1=mass of Earth, and m2 =titanic's mass, then it follows that m1>>m2, in other word, m2 is inexpressive. Do the math, and you'll get the same values. It does not matter if its the titanic, me or a photon. All of these will receive roughly the same gravitational pull, and with the same movement sense (if placed on the same coordinate system, say, Earth to the right). We will move towards Earth, and not the opposite, since the gravity (or mass) centers of the systems Earth+Titanic, Earth+me and earth+humble photon is located at the centre of the Earth, due to its sheer mass.

Regarding the magnet and the iron piece, again, the effect has nothing to do with Newtonian physics. You just orientate (align) the bipolar (magnetic) particles of the iron with another magnetic field. Now, with the bipolar particles aligned, the iron will become (for some time) magnetic. That's all.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Oh God!



(no satire intended)

[Correa Neto]

Originally posted by Rolfe
I guess the observation that the people who really do actually understand this stuff properly are also quite convinced by the evidence that homoeopathy and Tissue Remedies don't do anything, won't really mean anything to Kumar.

I mean, he doesn't have a clue, nevertheless he is undoubtedly right about homoeopathy, and everybody who actually understands physics, chemistry, biochemistry, physiology, molecular biology, pharmacology and medicine is wrong....

Rolfe.

It is my personal opinion that homeopathy, for many people, is a matter of faith. A belief. I know people who belive in homeopathy and are incredibly rational when it comes to all other topics of life.
But refuse to discuss the weak points. Not unlike religion. We, humans, can have a very weird behavior...

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Please people remember that when you reply to Kumar you are only talking to yourself or us. So unless you are wanting to work out some ideas in public for your own interest don't bother. For myself, I've reached the bottom of Kumar's apple barrel and found nothing but rotten mush and have now given up with him.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Well turn that frown upside down...
Turn that mush into mash and make some apple brandy!
When life hands you lemons........
smash em into life's face! that's my motto.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
Well turn that frown upside down...
Turn that mush into mash and make some apple brandy!
When life hands you lemons........
smash em into life's face! that's my motto.

Thank you for those inspirational thoughts.

Let me guess. You were the guy that woke up in the ER shortly after the company's team-building weekend began.

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Please people remember that when you reply to Kumar you are only talking to yourself or us. So unless you are wanting to work out some ideas in public for your own interest don't bother. For myself, I've reached the bottom of Kumar's apple barrel and found nothing but rotten mush and have now given up with him.
*sigh* I know, I know. I'm a glutton for punishment.

I expect sooner or later (probably sooner) I'll give up, and then Kumar will go back to claiming skeptics can't/won't answer his questions, when in fact said questions are so badly posed, and the answers so hopelessly misunderstood, that there's no point...

[Kumar]

Zombified,Correa Neto,

""A: A magnet field represents an energy. It is not energy itself (it is a force), but to create a magnet field, some energy must be invested, which is then bound in the field.""

The above reply Of MR. Hans as I mentioned here previously clearly indicate that energy in needed to be invested to create a new magnetic field. Now, since it became differance in opinion, let us try to clear it.

What is the purpose of rubbing of a permanent magnet on iron piece to make it a new magnet--why simply keeping both these together are not practiced?

Zombified,

In case of electromagnetism current is applied as energy which creates magnetic field in coil & convert iron piece into magnet. Still energy is applied which then invested in iron piece. Btw, does the iron then become permanent magnet or not?

[Kumar]

BSM,Rolfe,

Since I can't use words alike used in Electromagnetic topic by Mr.Hans, pls try to resist yourself & maintain manners here in exchange of this Courtesy. Thanks. :o

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
What is the purpose of rubbing of a permanent magnet on iron piece to make it a new magnet--why simply keeping both these together are not practiced?
Ask Hans what he meant. I can think of a couple of possibilities but it isn't necessary to rub metals together to magnetize a piece of iron.
In case of electromagnetism current is applied as energy which creates magnetic field in coil & convert iron piece into magnet. Still energy is applied which then invested in iron piece. Btw, does the iron then become permanent magnet or not?
Yes. You can magnetize a piece of iron permanently with a coil. This is how a magnetic tape or hard disk works.

[Kumar]

Zombified,

Thanks. You says that no outside energy is needed to make iron in to magnet. But in this case magnetic effect in iron is as an added energy as origional magnetic effect in hard magnet from which this iron piece is made magnet remains the same. From where then this extra energy comes from?

""A: A magnet field represents an energy. It is not energy itself (it is a force), but to create a magnet field, some energy must be invested, which is then bound in the field.""

Can Mr.hans or any other comment on this?

[Zombified]

No, I don't mean you don't need outside energy or a field to magnetize a piece of iron. What I mean is you don't need mechanical rubbing.

A magnetic field is a magnetic field. However, it has energy associated with it. So if you are going to make a magnetic field, you need to invest some energy into it.

When you magnetize iron, there is energy in the magnetic field. When the newly-magnetized iron is removed from the magnetic field, it retains some of its magnetization, and that new magnetic field also contains energy. That energy came from the original magnetic field. If the original magnetic field isn't replenished (say by a current), it will be diminished.

If the magnetic field is made by a coil, the energy comes from the current in the wire, and that energy comes from a battery, or whatever else is supplying the electricity.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Thank you for those inspirational thoughts.

Let me guess. You were the guy that woke up in the ER shortly after the company's team-building weekend began.

Ya I was..We tried to use real hammers and nails in the excersise.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zombified
No, I don't mean you don't need outside energy or a field to magnetize a piece of iron. What I mean is you don't need mechanical rubbing.

A magnetic field is a magnetic field. However, it has energy associated with it. So if you are going to make a magnetic field, you need to invest some energy into it.

When you magnetize iron, there is energy in the magnetic field. When the newly-magnetized iron is removed from the magnetic field, it retains some of its magnetization, and that new magnetic field also contains energy. That energy came from the original magnetic field. If the original magnetic field isn't replenished (say by a current), it will be diminished.

If the magnetic field is made by a coil, the energy comes from the current in the wire, and that energy comes from a battery, or whatever else is supplying the electricity.

Still rubbing is anticipated. Is it for early magnetizing the iron piece?

Anyway, either we rub or keep iron near magnet-- we apply mechnical kinetic energy in both cases. We also apply energy on seprating iron from magnet. Do you mean to say that all these applied energy just wasted in heat & MF in iron is part of hard magnet's MF--which will loose some magnetic effect or will become weak in this process? But, I think in magnetizing by hard magnet--hard magnet do not loose magnetic effect or do not re-align to make it bit weaker magnet.

I can't say much about MF made by coil without weakening of MF, but still i assume that it may resemble somewhat alike our applied KE by rubbing.

Now, what about Earth's magnetic field which is always around us. Does it add something to iron--if only MF is responsible for making a mgnetic field?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
Ya I was..We tried to use real hammers and nails in the excersise.

Remember when they got you to lash together barrels as a raft to cross a river. Are you the one who sold it to the Canadians after the weekend was over?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3723124.stm

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Still rubbing is anticipated.

I think a number of us have been worried by this aspect of your posts for some time.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
I think a number of us have been worried by this aspect of your posts for some time.

"Creating a magnet
You can magnetize a piece of steel by rubbing a magnet in one direction along the steel. This lines up the atoms in the steel, so it acts like a magnet. "

[Rolfe]

This is where we came in (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29004).

This OP was Kumar's fifth post on JREF. His ideas are totally pre-conceived, and no matter how much is explained to him, he's like the child's toy that always bounces back to the position it started in.

I spent quite a lot of time, nearly a year ago, explaining things to Kumar. Mostly biochemistry, quite a lot regarding the salt content of body fluids (which I happened to do my PhD in). I even copy-typed sections from text-books to try to help him understand better. At first he seemed to be getting it, but then it became obvious that he'd just lie low for a bit, then come back with exactly the same ridiculous assertions as he'd started with. Then he started to become sly, devious and rude. There's only so long you bang your head against a brick wall before you realise what your ignore list is for.

Now that most of the biological scientists around here have Kumar on ignore, he's trying to start again with a fresh audience of physicists. It's quite amusing, in a masochistic sort of way, I suppose.

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

What is the effect of temperature on magnetism? Does it behave alike this or otherwise:-

Temperature effect
"Strongly magnetic ferromagnetic materials like nickel or steel lose all their magnetic properties if they are heated to a high enough temperature. The atoms become too excited by the heat to remain pointing in one direction for long.
The temperature at which a metal loses its magnetism is called the Curie temperature, and it is different for every metal. The Curie temperature for nickel, for example, is about 350°C.?

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Kumar
What is the effect of temperature on magnetism? Does it behave alike this or otherwise:-

Temperature effect
"Strongly magnetic ferromagnetic materials like nickel or steel lose all their magnetic properties if they are heated to a high enough temperature. The atoms become too excited by the heat to remain pointing in one direction for long.
The temperature at which a metal loses its magnetism is called the Curie temperature, and it is different for every metal. The Curie temperature for nickel, for example, is about 350°C.?

If you'd actually been paying attention to the patient explanations of magnetism given many times before you'd confidently know the answer already. And why.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
What is the effect of temperature on magnetism? Does it behave alike this

Yes.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Now that most of the biological scientists around here have Kumar on ignore, he's trying to start again with a fresh audience of physicists.

I think you may well be right. I really couldn't keep it going for this long. Does anyone have a best guess as to Kumar's real native language? My money's on US English.

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
I think you may well be right. I really couldn't keep it going for this long. Does anyone have a best guess as to Kumar's real native language? My money's on US English.

I'm willing bet it's nothing from the indian sub-continent.

Kumar: tell us what 'Hello' us in your mother tongue ...

[Correa Neto]

Kumar,

You are seeking at different sources every single piece of paragraph that contains refereences to rubbing, crushing, or heating, etc. that are proceedures used on the preparation of homeopathic "medicine". And desperately trying to create a link, without the most basic undertanding of what's in play.

Anyway, either we rub or keep iron near magnet-- we apply mechnical kinetic energy in both cases.

Now, these "energies" are not all of the same type. Electromagnetic fields and forces are different from gravitational fields, and in the case in question, there are no effects related to kinetic energy or momentum from the iron -or the magnet- when it comes to magnetization. I will repeat: its not the kinetic energy that magnetizes the iron. To make things more clear- what orientates the bipolar particles is the magnetic field of the magnet. Bipolar particles are orientated on a more efficient way when the magnetic field tha is inducing the magnetism is moving. Note that all you have to move the magnetic field. There's no need to move the magnet. The effect can be obtained by moving either the magnet or the iron bar, or by moving a magnetic field generated by a coil. Rubbing is NOT needed and any heating induced by the rubbing has NO effect in the magnetisation induced.


Originally posted by Kumar
We also apply energy on seprating iron from magnet. Do you mean to say that all these applied energy just wasted in heat & MF in iron is part of hard magnet's MF--which will loose some magnetic effect or will become weak in this process? But, I think in magnetizing by hard magnet--hard magnet do not loose magnetic effect or do not re-align to make it bit weaker magnet.

You just tought wrong. Please note that there are equations that describe all these effects, they were developed and tested a long time ago several times. And still are, as any student of physics can tell you.

Originally posted by Kumar
I can't say much about MF made by coil without weakening of MF, but still i assume that it may resemble somewhat alike our applied KE by rubbing.

Wrong again. Don't "assume". There have been already plenty of answers regarding this and other topics.

Originally posted by Kumar
What is the effect of temperature on magnetism? Does it behave alike this or otherwise:-.


Above Curie temperatures, any orientation of bipolar particles is degraded, and the material is no longer magnetic. Unless the particles are kept orientated, by flow, for example.

And, again,
Rubbing is NOT needed and any heating induced by the rubbing has NO effect in the magnetisation induced.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Correa Neto
I will repeat: [b]its not the kinetic energy that magnetizes the iron. To make things more clear- what orientates the bipolar particles is the magnetic field of the magnet. Bipolar particles are orientated on a more efficient way when the magnetic field tha is inducing the magnetism is moving. Note that all you have to move the magnetic field. There's no need to move the magnet. The effect can be obtained by moving either the magnet or the iron bar, or by moving a magnetic field generated by a coil. Rubbing is NOT needed and any heating induced by the rubbing has NO effect in the magnetisation induced.

Ignoring the madness, I'm prompted to ask a real question. What magnetises the tip of a screwdriver after it has been in use for a little while? (Yes, I know some are deliberately supplied magnetic because it's a useful feature in some cases. I mean the incidental acquisition of magnetism with use)

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Ignoring the madness, I'm prompted to ask a real question. What magnetises the tip of a screwdriver after it has been in use for a little while? (Yes, I know some are deliberately supplied magnetic because it's a useful feature in some cases. I mean the incidental acquisition of magnetism with use)

Homeopathically-aligned ions in the philips screws.

Isn't the orientation weakly aligned according to the earth's field after heating? or does that require actual melting and incredibly slow cooling?

[davefoc]

Kumar,
I was wondering who you are.

I have some thoughts. Maybe you could just tell me how close I am.

1. Male
2. Age: 27
3. Nationality: Indian
4. not married
5. job: retail sales

Well how did I do?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Correa Neto
And, again,
Rubbing is NOT needed and any heating induced by the rubbing has NO effect in the magnetisation induced. [/B]

Thanks, Correa Neto. But sorry, I have one referance which mention:-
Mad Scientist: To magnetize something, you must force the domains to line up so their magnetic fields are mostly parallel. Rubbing something may help speed up the process, because it heats the material and the domains reorient more quickly as the temperature goes up. (Aside: a magnetized material has a point known as its Curie temperature at which it will lose its magnetic properties due to thermal jiggling randomizing the domains. If the material then cools down below the Curie temperature without a magnetic field present, it will not have any net magnetic field as the cooling domains will
freeze into place in random directions. If it cools down with a field present, that field will tend to reorient the domains and the iron will end up magnetized). The source of the magnetic field used does not need to be a physical magnet; you can also use the magnetic field generated by a solenoid, for example.
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/apr2001/987961151.Es.r.html
Can you pls check it? It is true that all these my efforts are to know "science of homeopathy" as I indicated in topic subject.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by davefoc
Kumar,
I was wondering who you are.

I have some thoughts. Maybe you could just tell me how close I am.

1. Male
2. Age: 27
3. Nationality: Indian
4. not married
5. job: retail sales

Well how did I do? You just got pass marks.;)

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by davefoc
Kumar,
I was wondering who you are.

I have some thoughts. Maybe you could just tell me how close I am.

1. Male
2. Age: 27
3. Nationality: Indian
4. not married
5. job: retail sales

Well how did I do? He's 51.

It was pretty much established that in this thread here, which he started when he joined JREF (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28980), he was referring to himself. After some confusion due to his poor use of English, it was finally established:He has first diagnoised as diabetic at the age of 40 & now he is 50.Which would make him 51 now, as this was a year ago.

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Benguin
Homeopathically-aligned ions in the philips screws.

Isn't the orientation weakly aligned according to the earth's field after heating? or does that require actual melting and incredibly slow cooling? Now, it is coming to light that rubbing/heating can hasten magnetisation as the Rubbing something may help speed up the process, because it heats the material and the domains reorient more quickly as the temperature goes up(upto certain limit). What about Homeopathically prepared potencies--probably harash rubbing so heat may also speed up the process in para-magnetic materials.;) Homeopathy may be bit differant as it may just rub & heat the remedies not the people.:D

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Rolfe
He's 51.

It was pretty much established that in this thread here, which he started when he joined JREF (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28980), he was referring to himself. After some confusion due to his poor use of English, it was finally established:Which would make him 51 now, as this was a year ago.

Rolfe. Prove it!! I just remember I just mentioned in one case which I personally observed or experianced him personally. Although your assumption can be right or may not be wrong also--somewhat?:D

Let me continue alike a 'Ghost'. :eek:

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Remember when they got you to lash together barrels as a raft to cross a river. Are you the one who sold it to the Canadians after the weekend was over?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3723124.stm

Yup. They said they were gonna put it in Lake Michigan and invade Chicago eh?

[Kumar]

Anyway, folowing doubts are still pending to be cleared:-

1. Does the hard magnet weakens or looses its energy on making iron magnet from it?(contradictory responces noted)

2. Does the applied mechnical KE is somewhat transfered in to iron now become magnet? ?(contradictory responces noted)

3. Does the rubbing/heating of iron/magnet upto certain level--can speed up or enhance(comparatively more magnetisation) this process??(contradictory responces noted)

4. If KE not transfered into PE on applied energy by rubbing...from where energy in new magnet comes from??(contradictory responces noted)

5. What effect, applied mechnical KE on triturating..., can leave on trirurated...materials, by photons(or fundamental particles) produced during this process assuming opaqe closed containers & carriers/lactose which made the medium opaqe, are used in homeopathic preparations?

6. Is there any differance in biological effects, by particles/substances with more gravitational attraction due to their more mass AND by lighter particles or substances with no mass as "fundamental/elementary particles"?

7. Can these "fundamental/elementary particles" be absorbed & stored for long in any molecular substances?

[Correa Neto]

Originally posted by Benguin
Homeopathically-aligned ions in the philips screws.

Isn't the orientation weakly aligned according to the earth's field after heating? or does that require actual melting and incredibly slow cooling?

Incredibly slow cooling is not required. Magnetite crystals in coling lavas are oriented according to Earth's magnetic field (remember the zebra-like magnetic anomaly patterns in oceanic crusts?). Basaltic lava can cool really fast.

Kumar,

A few points:

First of all, all that you are writting starts with "may". You have any idea of the mechanisms that are involved on the process? No. With this in mid, remember that not all materials become polarized in the presence of a magnet of some sort or due to electrostaic charges. Even if the mechanims proposed was possible, do you have any evidences that the crushed materials have such properties?

Second, suppose they have (at least some of them). What is used to crush them? They are objects made of silica, aren't they? Rubbing silica-made objects in iron bars can induce magnetism?

Third, is there any evidence that ingesting magnetic particles can affect the body? AFAIK, no. But I'm not a physician. Rolfe and BSm surely have better data on that. However, as soon as they say "no"you will say you don't belive and point to a link to some woo magnetic theraphy gizmo (offered for small price)... If it had any effects, eating magnetite would at least let us high...

Fourth. At last but not least, you are searching for a reason why homeopathy medicine works, but the truth is IT DOES NOT WORKS!!! Its a waste of time. Unless at a certain point you become convinced that it really don't...

EDIT Kumar, there are no condradictory answers in this thread regarding induced magnetism. Its YOU that either is not unertanding them or refusing to understand. An example is your insistence regaring kinetic energy being transferd to the material being magnetised...END EDIT[

[Kumar]

Correa Neto,

Sorry, although you, devfoc, zombified told so nicely, but my real problem is that I experianced effects resonably above placebo level of tissue remedies, first & so trying to know its logic or science thereafter. It is also observed & experianced by other mass existing & well distributed homeopathic community all over the world, since long. I now can't just leave it till it has life in public or dies naturally.

Ok, just leave these sentiments/phylosophy. Pls tell me:-

If KE not transfered into PE on applied energy by rubbing...,from where energy in new magnet comes from?? Can't we think that lining up/alignment or manetisation is one kind of PE stored by work done for it by us?

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Correa Neto
Incredibly slow cooling is not required. Magnetite crystals in coling lavas are oriented according to Earth's magnetic field (remember the zebra-like magnetic anomaly patterns in oceanic crusts?). Basaltic lava can cool really fast.


My bad ... should've thought that through properly, I did have the stripy mid-atlantic ridge in mind. I did cover geology quite extensively at college and uni, but I've unfortunately not had need of it since.

What I was really getting at is whether these heated magnets realign weakly to polar fields.

This is where my ignorance of magnetic theory really comes to the fore ... would a perfectly still (ie no disturbance, turbulence etc) slow cooling high-iron magma be quite strong magnetically when set?

And, BTW, we can be pretty confident Kumar is not Indian, he's now made a chuddy of himself twice on language tests. Look how he managed to get his grammar and spelling right (at least to begin with) when disputing he's the 51 year old diabetic. If I was native indian I'd be insulted by his parody.

[Correa Neto]

Originally posted by Kumar
Correa Neto,

Sorry, although you, devfoc, zombified told so nicely, but my real problem is that I experianced effects resonably above placebo level of tissue remedies, first & so trying to know its logic or science thereafter. It is also observed & experianced by other mass existing & well distributed homeopathic community all over the world, since long. I now can't just leave it till it has life in public or dies naturally.

Ok, just leave these sentiments/phylosophy. Pls tell me:-

If KE not transfered into PE on applied energy by rubbing...,from where energy in new magnet comes from?? Can't we think that lining up/alignment or manetisation is one kind of PE stored by work done for it by us?

You seem to have not read this paragraph I wrote, so I'll copy and paste. Please read it.

Now, these "energies" are not all of the same type. Electromagnetic fields and forces are different from gravitational fields, and in the case in question, there are no effects related to kinetic energy or momentum from the iron -or the magnet- when it comes to magnetization. I will repeat: its not the kinetic energy that magnetizes the iron. To make things more clear- what orientates the bipolar particles is the magnetic field of the magnet. Bipolar particles are orientated on a more efficient way when the magnetic field tha is inducing the magnetism is moving. Note that all you have to move the magnetic field. There's no need to move the magnet. The effect can be obtained by moving either the magnet or the iron bar, or by moving a magnetic field generated by a coil.

Regarding your comments on homeopathy, two remarks:

Are you sure you are not one of those who has the placebo effect?

Are you sure that the other people who benefitted were also either part of the effect or were using conventional medicine?

Have you forgotten that people have immune systems and that diseases (in some cases) can be defeated by our own body?

"It is also observed & experianced by other mass existing & well distributed homeopathic community all over the world, since long."
You could change the word "homeopathic" by ufological, cryptozoological, conspiracy-hunters, religious, etc... this does not proves anything.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Kumar
Correa Neto,

Sorry, although you, devfoc, zombified told so nicely, but my real problem is that I experianced effects resonably above placebo level of tissue remedies, first & so trying to know its logic or science thereafter. It is also observed & experianced by other mass existing & well distributed homeopathic community all over the world, since long.

Kumar,

You wrote that you "experienced effects reasonably above placebo level." How many subjects were there in the study you did?

[Correa Neto]

Originally posted by Benguin
My bad ... should've thought that through properly, I did have the stripy mid-atlantic ridge in mind. I did cover geology quite extensively at college and uni, but I've unfortunately not had need of it since.

What I was really getting at is whether these heated magnets realign weakly to polar fields.

This is where my ignorance of magnetic theory really comes to the fore ... would a perfectly still (ie no disturbance, turbulence etc) slow cooling high-iron magma be quite strong magnetically when set?

...snip...

As many (if not most) things in geology the answer is... It depends!

The factors are:
-Oxidation stage of the magma. The more oxigen (result of fluid activity in the magma), the more hematite will be formed, decreasing the magnetic properties;
-Overall chemical composition of the magma, since Fe can also be consumed by other minerals (silicates, other non-magnetic oxides and sulphides).

However, as a rule of thumb, the more iron it has, the more magnetic it is.

As for the heating, I am no specialist in magnetism, but I'm not sure if such a small heating as the created by rubbing can have any real effect. Strenght and proximity of the magnetic field for sure is what probably makes the difference. Since rubbing places the objects in contact, reducing the distance to 0...

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Correa Neto
You seem to have not read this paragraph I wrote, so I'll copy and paste. Please read it.

Now, these "energies" are not all of the same type. Electromagnetic fields and forces are different from gravitational fields, and in the case in question, there are no effects related to kinetic energy or momentum from the iron -or the magnet- when it comes to magnetization. I will repeat: its not the kinetic energy that magnetizes the iron. To make things more clear- what orientates the bipolar particles is the magnetic field of the magnet. Bipolar particles are orientated on a more efficient way when the magnetic field tha is inducing the magnetism is moving. Note that all you have to move the magnetic field. There's no need to move the magnet. The effect can be obtained by moving either the magnet or the iron bar, or by moving a magnetic field generated by a coil.

Sorry, still it indicates KE applied is converted as PE in new magnet--obiously if origional magnet is not weakened on making new magnet. Under Energy conservation law of energy-- energy in new magnet (when origional energy in hard magnet remains the same) has to come from somewhere. Can you just review it?

Regarding your comments on homeopathy, two remarks:

Are you sure you are not one of those who has the placebo effect?

Are you sure that the other people who benefitted were also either part of the effect or were using conventional medicine?

Have you forgotten that people have immune systems and that diseases (in some cases) can be defeated by our own body?

"It is also observed & experianced by other mass existing & well distributed homeopathic community all over the world, since long."
You could change the word "homeopathic" by ufological, cryptozoological, conspiracy-hunters, religious, etc... this does not proves anything.

I think you was not here previously. I posted a new topic for this. Pls have a look at:
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46490

[Kumar]

Originally posted by BillHoyt
Kumar,

You wrote that you "experienced effects reasonably above placebo level." How many subjects were there in the study you did?

When I started, nothing about their effects were much known to me. Still, I observed the effects so initiated furthur, means beyong Placebo effect. When we take any remedy but if it behave differantly than as we think--means no placebo effect. On animals--means no Pl.E. Other family members feel effects without any knowledge--means no Pl.E.....so on & so many. Although, I "WISH" all for just placebo--but it is not there in observations & experiances. Homeopathic introducers & persuers also tried for alike Pl.E by going on, increasing the potencies---but yet they all couldn't succeed--mostly.

I can't explain better that this except to indicate that 'study, try, experiance & observe (under guidance) at least for one year--if these are alike water,alcohol or lactose as per you, your studies & your science. :)

[Correa Neto]

Originally posted by Kumar


Sorry, still it indicates KE applied is converted as PE in new magnet--obiously if origional magnet is not weakened on making new magnet. Under Energy conservation law of energy-- energy in new magnet (when origional energy in hard magnet remains the same) has to come from somewhere. Can you just review it?

No it does not. It indicates, however, that you can not or refuse to understand what's been explained. How many times I and others will have to explain this:

what magnetizes the iron is the magnetic field of the magnet Move the field and you will magnetize the iron. Place the iron close to the magnetic field and it will also be magnetized. The magnetic field of the magnet is what will orientate -some of- the bipolar particles of the iron. This has NOTHING to do with newtonian kinetic energy as you undertand it (do you?).

You've been asleep on the physics classes, and this is a very good reason to avoid making certain conclusions. You are basing your ideas, it seems, on a mistaken conception of newtonian physics, conservation of inertia, kinetic energy, electromagnetic energy, etc.

Honestly, you should review your concepts.

Originally posted by Kumar
I think you was not here previously. I posted a new topic for this. Pls have a look at:
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46490

Again,
Honestly, you should review your concepts.

Nature has no obligation to be as you think it is.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Kumar
When we take any remedy but if it behave differantly than as we think--means no placebo effect.

No, kumar, that is not the definition of the "placebo" effect. Would you care to try again?

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
Sorry, still it indicates KE applied is converted as PE in new magnet--obiously if origional magnet is not weakened on making new magnet. Under Energy conservation law of energy-- energy in new magnet (when origional energy in hard magnet remains the same) has to come from somewhere. Can you just review it?
As I explained to you before, Kumar, and you've apparently ignored, magnetizing a piece of iron does transfer energy from one permenant magnet to another. If the original magnet was also a permenant ferromagnet, it's field will be reduced.

The energy stored in a magnetic field is proportional to the square of the strength of the magnetic field, integrated over all space, so it does not take very much energy away from a strong magnet to magnetize something else weakly, however.

And, Kumar, with regard to homeopathy, people have already tried homeopathy in long term trials, and can't make it work. It is not a proven method of treating any disease. There is no point in insisting it would work if we'd just try it. It's been tried.

[davefoc]

Kumar said in response to davefoc claim that there is no such thing as a homeopathic effect :Hello, Have You become soafraid of, that if homeopathy may get some technical/scientific explanation by this. It is not so simple esp. under $IM umbrella. I feel:-

Kumar, to the degree that you believe anything believe this, I am not afraid homeopathy will be shown to be real.

There is nothing to homeopathy beyond fraud, self delusion and the placebo effect. Homeopathy is not like some theory that could eventually be shown to be true at a later date. Millions of scientific observations and experiments have never shown any basis for such an effect. But that is not unexpected given that the evidence that a homeopathic effect exists are largely based on meaningless anecdotal stories by people who do not remotely understand how to separate their own biases from reality.

A homeopathy advocate in a recent thread stated how she can sometimes get nearly instantaneous results with a homeopathic treatment. Huh, hundreds of tests have shown no effects or at best debatable subtle effects and this woman thinks that she can see immediate effects. Does it worry you at all that the people that advocate for homeopathy have so little ability to observe objectively?

But let's for the sake of argument say that homeopathy was shown to have a real benefit beyond a placebo effect. Am I afraid of that? Not in the least, nor I suspect is anybody that has responded to you about homeopathy. It would mean either that a completely unknown physical phenomena has been discovered and most of us would be interested in that or it would mean that a genuinely supernatural effect had been detected and all of us would be interested in that. It would also mean that we could eliminate expensive medical treatments and their various undesirable side effects. Something even ThirdTwin would like although it would mean that he would need to get a different profession.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by davefoc
Something even ThirdTwin would like although it would mean that he would need to get a different profession. But would it? For one thing, I think ThirdTwin intends to specialise in anaesthesia. Which is hardly going to be rendered unnecessary by homoeopathy, as even Hahnemann agreed that surgery was a separate and still necessary discipline.

However, it's wider than that. If homoeopathic remedies are ever shown to have a real physiological effect they will have to be brought much more formally under the law than they are at present. At the moment the regulatory authorities seem happy to let the homoeopaths play away in their own little fantasy world so long as their remedies are diluted beyond any possibility of toxic effects by normal molecular means. They ignore all the reports of adverse effects (aggravations and so on) as irrelevant because presumably coincidental. Just as they're quite content to believe that any positive effects are coincidental. But if it appears that the positive effects are real, then obviously the negative effects are real too. So, much more regulation and safety tests and restriction on who can practise by this method, and what remedies they can use.

Real (or "evidence-based") medicine is simply the stuff that works. Once there is evidence that something is effective, it simply gets incorporated. So, after the New Jerusalem when homoeopathy is shown to be real, any bets on who will end up practising it?

Rolfe.

[davefoc]

Excellent point Rolfe, ThirdTwin probably just let out a big sigh of relief. He'll still have a job even after homeopathy replaces standard medical treatments. :)

I wonder if Kumar has any thoughts about what kinds of maladies will be cured by homeopathy after the New Jerusalem that Rolfe mentioned.

Any of these?

liver disease
heart disease
viral infections
bacterial infections
fungal infections
arthropod infections (will it kill lice?)
alcoholism
allergies
sleep problems
etc.

Is there some general rule here that one can use to determine exactly what ills that homeopathy advocates claim that homeopathy is effective against?

Is there any evidence that homeopaths are not afflicted with the ills they claim to be able to treat? For instance if homeopaths claim to be able to treat heart disease would we find that heart disease doesn't exist in homeopaths? Is there any evidence that the average life span of hemopaths is longer than the population at large?

Edited to add a smiley just in case somebody might misinterpret the intent of the first sentence.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by davefoc
Is there any evidence that homeopaths are not afflicted with the ills they claim to be able to treat?

Quite the reverse. They seem to have permanent ill health either real or imagined and all of them seem to be self-medicating with magic water or sugar most of the time.

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42966

A lot of it is hypochcondria. Some of it is real chronic disease.

If the proof of the pudding is in the eating, in this case it is half-baked.

[Kumar]

[quote]Kumar said in response to davefoc claim that there is no such thing as a homeopathic effect :

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, Have You become soafraid of, that if homeopathy may get some technical/scientific explanation by this. It is not so simple esp. under $IM umbrella. I feel:-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Kumar, to the degree that you believe anything believe this, I am not afraid homeopathy will be shown to be real.[/b]

devefoc, The above quote was not meant for you as you never avoided the replies.

Reg Homeopathy, we can each think & comment according to our personal studies, views, interests, hypnotised , experiances etc., nothing yet 'absolute'.

Btw, what is "Magnetocaloric effect" "pyroelectric effect" and "piezoelectric effect"? How Silicon is related to it?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zombified
As I explained to you before, Kumar, and you've apparently ignored, magnetizing a piece of iron does transfer energy from one permenant magnet to another. If the original magnet was also a permenant ferromagnet, it's field will be reduced.

The energy stored in a magnetic field is proportional to the square of the strength of the magnetic field, integrated over all space, so it does not take very much energy away from a strong magnet to magnetize something else weakly, however.


Ok, if it is like this then just tell:-

What happens when we rub any magnet on iron & seprate these two away from each other's MF? DOES total MF of both still remains same or differ?

Where our applied KE on keeping iron or rubbing magnet goes?

In this respect I read one interesting differant aspect:-

FRICTION IS NOT CAUSED BY SURFACE ROUGHNESS

Some books point to surface roughness as the explanation of sliding friction. Surface roughness merely makes the moving surfaces bounce up and down as they move, and any energy lost in pushing the surfaces apart is regained when they fall together again. Friction is mostly caused by chemical bonding between the moving surfaces; it is caused by stickyness. Even scientists once believed this misconception, and they explained friction as being caused by "interlocking asperites", the "asperites" being microscopic bumps on surfaces. But the modern sciences of surfaces, of abrasion, and of lubrication explain sliding friction in terms of chemical bonding and "stick & slip" processes. The subject is still full of unknowns, and new discoveries await those who make surface science their profession


When thinking about friction, don't think about grains of sand on sandpaper. Instead think about sticky adhesive tape being dragged along a surface.

???

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
How Silicon is related to it?

HOORAY!!! Can I call "Bingo!" and we start a new game?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
DOES total MF of both still remains same or differ?


Kumar

I don't know for sure, but had you heard that in many large urban centres there are very large MFs that can seriously adversely affect your mobile phones and credit cards?

The effect is most pronounced when the MF emerges behind a horizontally orientated metal tube open at the end nearest the phone or credit cards. I've even heard that if the card or mobile phone does not pass into the vicinity of the metal tube, so nullifying the effect, an explosive discharge can ensue.

Since I am not a physicist I am not sure what credence to give these reports.

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
Btw, what is ... "piezoelectric effect"? How Silicon is related to it?
Wrong woo, kumar. Piezoelectricity is misunderstood and abused by crystal nuts traditionally, not homeopaths. Though I suppose there's no reason you can't be confused about that, too.

For anyone else still suffering through this thread, silicon is not piezoelectric because it is a single element in a symmetric crystal lattice. Piezoelectricity involves an electrically polar molecule in a crystal lattice, the stereotypical example being quartz. A voltage on the crystal causes the crystal lattice to flex, and a mechanical deformation of the crystal results in a voltage.

How this can possibly be related to homeopathy I have no idea...

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Zombified

How this can possibly be related to homeopathy I have no idea...

Trituration. Though, possibly, you were better not knowing.

[Zombified]

Oh, right, I should have figured that out. :rolleyes: Of course, glass is actually silicon dioxide, but it's amorphous, not crystalline, and it's not piezoelectric. So, wrong again, Kumar, though I expect we'll see piezoelectricity on your list of decided questions in the near future none-the-less.

[Rolfe]

When Kumar first appeared here, one of his main obsessions was the idea that all homoeopathic remedies might in fact be the Tissue Remedy "silicea", accidentally produced by the grinding of the triturition, or by osmosis through storing the finished remedies in glass bottles. Thus, the fact that homoeopathy "works" is in fact proof that silicea is the cure for what ails you.

Did aspirin stop working when they moved to plastic bottles, anybody notice?

The thing that really amuses me about Kumar is the way he will come across some new (to him) concept like the piezoelectric effect, and all his little mind can think to do with it is to say "hey, maybe this is how homoeopathy works!" So he goes to find people who actually understand this new effect, and asks them to explain it to him. Trusting that they are knowledgeable people who really do understand it and can explain it.

But then when these same people say, no, Kumar, actually we really do understand this effect and there's no way that it can possibly be related to homoeopathy, trust us, if it was we'd have noticed, Kumar says no, you're all so stupid and closed-minded, I understand all this much better than you do.

What a yo-yo.

Rolfe.

[Kumar]

Read interesting discussions here. (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=693722#post693722) Do you have any awnser/comment to this:-

How many magnets can a single magnet make before it is no longer magnetic?

"A magnet can effect the magnetism of an unlimited number of objects with out loss of force or energy to itself" Which suugests that magnetic force is not conserved but actually propagated..

[Kumar]

I have asked this question there also:-

Avogadro's Law--Do we have some concept alike it in case sub-atomic substance like energy, force, radiations etc. Can these be diluted out at any level or can magnetic field be diluted out at any level alike Avogadro's Law?

another one:-

Two types 'work done' or applied energy is there in magnetizing. One by us & another by origional magnet for alignment. I want to know that IF the applied energy by us in keeping magnet near to iron or rubbing it on iron AND by origional magnet of lining up is reversed back to us or to original magnet in some form or not?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Read interesting discussions here. (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=693722#post693722) Do you have any awnser/comment to this:-

How many magnets can a single magnet make before it is no longer magnetic?

"A magnet can effect the magnetism of an unlimited number of objects with out loss of force or energy to itself" Which suugests that magnetic force is not conserved but actually propagated.. The last sentence is meaningless. There is no contradiction between conserved and propagated. And you keep confusing force and energy, they are different things.

Let's try agan: An ideal permanent magnet does not loose strength when used to magnetize something (e.g. a nail).

The "new" magnet field does not come from anywhere, it is already in the nail, because each of the molecules inside the nail is a small magnet.

When you magnetize the nail, you use the external magent field to align (some of) the molecules in the nail, so that their magnet fields point in the same direction, therefore their combined magnet fields are now detectable as a magnet field around the nail.

The energy needed to align the molecules comes from the outside, as movement energy, if you align them with a permanent magnet, or electrical energy if you align them with an electromagnet.

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans

The energy needed to align the molecules comes from the outside, as movement energy, if you align them with a permanent magnet, or electrical energy if you align them with an electromagnet.

Hans

Thanks. Rest is ok but can you explain 'this outside energy cycle' in detail. (sorry, if I am asking to repeat)

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
have asked this question there also:-

Avogadro's Law--Do we have some concept alike it in case sub-atomic substance like energy, force, radiations etc. Can these be diluted out at any level or can magnetic field be diluted out at any level alike Avogadro's Law?

Yes, since magnet fields do also follow quantum mechanics, there is a minimum quantum of a magnet field that can exist, a virtual photon. Thus, a magent field can be "diluted out of existence".

another one:-

Two types 'work done' or applied energy is there in magnetizing. One by us & another by origional magnet for alignment. I want to know that IF the applied energy by us in keeping magnet near to iron or rubbing it on iron AND by origional magnet of lining up is reversed back to us or to original magnet in some form or not?

Already explained in my previous post, but see below

Let us proceed with magnetizing. What happens if we take the nail we just magnetized and use it to magnetize another (identical) nail? Now we will find that that as the second nail gets more magnetic, the first nail looses magnetism. Is that because the magnetism is moved to the new nail? No, not really. It is because the magnetic force works both ways. The magnet field pulls at the molecules in the non-magnetic nail, aligning them, but you cannot just pull at one end of a string, so that pull will tend to de-align the molecules in the magnetic nail. Ideally, about as many molecules are de-aligned in nail #1 as are aligned in nail #2, so seemingly, they end up with half the magnetism each.

Why did that not happen with the permanent magnet? Because the structure in the permanent magnet is so much more rigid and the molecules are not easily changed. A permanent magnet material is difficult to cange. If you had a piece of non-magnetized neodynium, you would find it virtually impossible to magnetize.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Thanks. Rest is ok but can you explain 'this outside energy cycle' in detail. (sorry, if I am asking to repeat) Yes, you are asking me to repeat. What is it you don't understand? We are either creating a magent field using electrical energy, or we are moving another magnet field near the nail, using physical energy. Some of that energy goes into aligning the molecules in the nail. It is quite simple. In all cases it is a very small amount of energy, not something you can feel, but you can measure it with appropriate instruments.

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Yes, you are asking me to repeat. What is it you don't understand? We are either creating a magent field using electrical energy, or we are moving another magnet field near the nail, using physical energy. Some of that energy goes into aligning the molecules in the nail. It is quite simple. In all cases it is a very small amount of energy, not something you can feel, but you can measure it with appropriate instruments.

Hans "Some of that energy goes into aligning the molecules in the nail."

What is the problem then in accepting that some of our applied mechnical kinetic energy is converted/invested into aligning the molecules(sorry, but are these molecules?) of nail/iron & thus stored as P.E. there?

I am trying to understand your previous post. I have small question:-

Does the overall magnetic effect by 'say' one magnet of 1Kg & 1000 magnets of one gram each but seprate is effected or not?
I mean whether density effects overall magnetic effect?

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Kumar
"Some of that energy goes into aligning the molecules in the nail."

What is the problem then in accepting that some of our applied mechnical kinetic energy is converted/invested into aligning the molecules(sorry, but are these molecules?) of nail/iron & thus stored as P.E. there?

Suddenly, inexplicably, pronouns and other finer grammatical points enter into Kumar's English. An Angel surely descended from the heavens!

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
"Some of that energy goes into aligning the molecules in the nail."

What is the problem then in accepting that some of our applied mechnical kinetic energy is converted/invested into aligning the molecules(sorry, but are these molecules?) of nail/iron & thus stored as P.E. there? Molecules or atoms, depending on the composition of the material, but it doesn't matter.

There is no problem accepting it. It IS stored as potential energy (although, in this case, recovering it will be difficult, but that is unimportant). Basically, energy can only exist as flowing or potential energy, but the two are interchangeable and conversion between them is relatively simple.

Actually, energy can also be bound as matter, but the matter<>energy conversion is not simple to make.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by BillHoyt
Suddenly, inexplicably, pronouns and other finer grammatical points enter into Kumar's English. An Angel surely descended from the heavens! Yeah, that "angel" flies by occasionally. Interestingly, the more eager and interested Kumar becomes, the better his English, whereas when he needs to shy away from arguments, he becomes almost incomprehensible. Go figure :rolleyes:.

Hans

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Molecules or atoms, depending on the composition of the material, but it doesn't matter.

Yes, some alloyes are also used--so molecular forms should be be of importance. However, I previously read something about electrons, pairs alignment. Sorry I don't remember properly.

There is no problem accepting it. It IS stored as potential energy (although, in this case, recovering it will be difficult, but that is unimportant). Basically, energy can only exist as flowing or potential energy, but the two are interchangeable and conversion between them is relatively simple.

Mr.Hans, it may go against me but truely bow I am thinking that this applied energy by us & by orgional magnet--may either lost as heat or stored in us or in origional magnet for our/magnet potential to reverse those works done as P.E.grav.=mgh or P.E.=weight X height do not include work done by us. Logically, when we lift a stone & keep it to some height--obiously we get some PE to lift it from height & keep that down.

Actually, energy can also be bound as matter, but the matter<>energy conversion is not simple to make.

What are photons produced--are these conversion of matter or otherwise?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MRC_Hans
[B]Mr.Hans, it may go against me but truely bow I am thinking that this applied energy by us & by orgional magnet--may either lost as heat or stored in us or in origional magnet for our/magnet potential to reverse those works done as P.E.grav.=mgh or P.E.=weight X height do not include work done by us.

Let's play the game and take you seriously for a moment.

Let's also cut to the chase. You are interested in these things because you want to explain a homeopathic effect. Never mind for the moment that such a thing does not exist, all you are groping for here is mechanisms of energy transfer from one system to another. No one is denying that energy can be transferred from one system to another, but that energy obeys the rules of thermodynamics. What homeopathy requires is for information to pass in a coherent manner through all the processing stages, and indeed be amplifed, or "potentised". Unfortunately, what actually happens is that homepathic processing increases entropy. Whatever coherent structure was present in the remedy source is lost during the processing.

While you are struggling through the foothills of this argument, please understand that there is no pass through these mountains to your homeopathic Shangri-La. You are lost. Why not trust the guides just for once when they try to show you the way.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
No one is denying that energy can be transferred from one system to another, but that energy obeys the rules of thermodynamics. What homeopathy requires is for information to pass in a coherent manner through all the processing stages, and indeed be amplifed, or "potentised". Unfortunately, what actually happens is that homepathic processing increases entropy. Whatever coherent structure was present in the remedy source is lost during the processing.



As one magnet can make several magnets being iron piecec as its carriers, why similar thing can't happen in homeopathic potentisation. We have origional magnet as raw remedy substance, we have iron as carriers water,alcohol or lactose. We have mechnical energy of rubbing,keeping as succusing, triturating. What is lacking?

My two questions are not yet awnsered:-

1. Does the overall magnetic effect by 'say' one magnet of 1Kg & 1000 magnets of one gram each but seprate is effected or not?
I mean whether density effects overall magnetic effect?

2. Whether applied energy by us or by origional magnet in keeping & rubbing is lost some as heat & balance reverse back to us or to magnet & stored there to be utilized for reversing magnetism in iron--but not actually invested/transfered into iron piece as per example of P.E. formulas?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
[QUOTE] Yes, some alloyes are also used--so molecular forms should be be of importance. However, I previously read something about electrons, pairs alignment. Sorry I don't remember properly.

Ahh, you don't remember, so it is easier to ask again than to find out. Well, don't be such a lazy student, find out for yourself.

Mr.Hans, it may go against me but truely bow I am thinking that this applied energy by us & by orgional magnet--may either lost as heat or stored in us or in origional magnet for our/magnet potential to reverse those works done as P.E.grav.=mgh or P.E.=weight X height do not include work done by us. Logically, when we lift a stone & keep it to some height--obiously we get some PE to lift it from height & keep that down.

I suggest you read a book on energy and energy conversion. It is a very thoroughly explored science.


What are photons produced--are these conversion of matter or otherwise?

They are a part of energy conversion.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
As one magnet can make several magnets being iron piecec as its carriers, why similar thing can't happen in homeopathic potentisation.

Because magnetism is not a general thing, it is special to magnetic materials. Many materials are affected by magnetic fields in various ways, but only a few materials have the ability to retain a magnetic field. Water, alcohol, or lactose are not among these materials.

We have origional magnet as raw remedy substance, we have iron as carriers water,alcohol or lactose. We have mechnical energy of rubbing,keeping as succusing, triturating. What is lacking?

Knowledge of simple physics is lacking on your part.

Now, let's cut this short: Homopathic remedies are not PHYSICALLY different from blank medium. Ask any homeopath, and they will have to tell you that THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL A REMEDY FROM A NON-REMEDY. Try to get this, Kumar. You are looking for something that not even proponents of homeopathy claim exists.

My two questions are not yet awnsered:-

Kumar, your questions have been answered repeatedly, you just don't like the answers.

1. Does the overall magnetic effect by 'say' one magnet of 1Kg & 1000 magnets of one gram each but seprate is effected or not?
I mean whether density effects overall magnetic effect?

Magnetism has no connection to the mass of a magent. I already told you: The magnetism is inside the material all the time, it is just aligned in a magnet.

2. Whether applied energy by us or by origional magnet in keeping & rubbing is lost some as heat & balance reverse back to us or to magnet & stored there to be utilized for reversing magnetism in iron--but not actually invested/transfered into iron piece as per example of P.E. formulas?

No it is stored as potential energy in the ordered magnet field. If you could cause the magnet field to spontaneously collapse, you could collect the energy in an induction coil.

Mmmm, perhaps I can explain this in a way you can understand and experiment with:

Go down to your local hardware store (or toy store) and buy two rod magnets. You need some nails, too.

Now, let's pretend that these magnets are molecules in a piece of iron. Put them together side by side, poles opposite, that is the north (probably painted blue) of one magnet beside south (probably painted red) of the other, and vice versa. You will notice the magnets stick together nicely.

Now try to see how many nails this combined magnet can lift. You will find that it is quite weak because the magnets are in opposite direction, they are NOT ALIGNED.

Now, grab the magnets and turn them to align them north to north and south to south. You will notice a marked resistance as you try to bring identical poles close. If they are good magnets, you may even find that they will not stick together at all because they repell each other. If that is the case, use a bit of adhesive tape to hold them together. You just invested some energy in ALIGNING the magnets.

Now try with nails and you will find that the aligned magents are much stronger than before.

Finally, yurn them back to unaligned position again (if necessary, remove the tape). You will feel this is a "downhill" motion, like releasing a spring. You have recovered the potenrial energy.

If this does not explain it to you, I'm afraid I have to give up.

Hans

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

Thanks for detailed explaination. I think all these belong to magnetic domains.

Magnetic Domains
1. Magnetic moments in neighboring atoms are held parallel by quantum mechanical forces.

2. These atoms with these magnetic characteristics are grouped into regions called domains. Each domain has its own North pole and South pole.
A Domain is the smallest known permanent magnet. About 6000 domains would occupy an area the size of the head of a common pin. A domain is composed of approximately one quadrillion (1,000,000,000,000,000 or 1015) atoms.

3. In unmagnetized ferromagnetic materials, the domains are randomly oriented and neutralize each other or cancel each other out. However, the magnetic fields are still present within the domains.
http://my.execpc.com/~rhoadley/magwhy.htm

In this respect i just want to clear:-

Are some type of Domains/atoms also present in other than ferromagnetic materials & if yes, those domains are also randomly oriented and neutralize each other or cancel each other out. However, the magnetic fields are still present within the domains but they can't be aligned due to their non-magnetic properties?

When you join two magnets with same poles of both on one side, does their magnetic field just double proportionately or not?

my Q2. Whether applied energy by us or by origional magnet in keeping & rubbing is lost some as heat & balance reverse back to us or to magnet & stored there to be utilized for reversing magnetism in iron--but not actually invested/transfered into iron piece as per example of P.E. formulas?

Your A. No it is stored as potential energy in the ordered magnet field. If you could cause the magnet field to spontaneously collapse, you could collect the energy in an induction coil.

Suppose, we rub other than ferromagnetic materials--what will happen to our applied KE on rubbing?

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Kumar
Suppose, we rub other than ferromagnetic materials--what will happen to our applied KE on rubbing?

Conservation of energy can't help you here Kumar, this is not a closed system in that respect.

You've also got to find a way to relate 'energy' to homeopathy. We know magnets don't do much, so incredibly small weak ones aren't going to do anything.

It's all the wrong way around Kumar. Homeopathy doesn't work, there is no way to distinguish between those who've had it and those who haven't. You might very well be looking for theories to prove why it is pigs can fly.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Unfortunately, what actually happens is that homepathic processing increases entropy. Whatever coherent structure was present in the remedy source is lost during the processing.


[Exaggeratedpatience]Kumar, Kumar, Kumar, Kumar. You are still confusing energy transmission with information transmission.[/patiencelost]

Let's take an example.

I have a baseball bat. I tap you lightly, but repeatedly on the side of the head. Have you gained information? Is the inside of your head more baseball-bat-like? Does your brain contain more essence of baseball bat or is its fine structure even more damaged than previously?

This is entropy. Energy has been transmitted to your head, but no information has passed from baseball bat to brain.

[Mongpoovian]

Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans,

Thanks for detailed explaination. I think all these belong to magnetic domains.

In this respect i just want to clear:-

Are some type of Domains/atoms also present in other than ferromagnetic materials & if yes, those domains are also randomly oriented and neutralize each other or cancel each other out. However, the magnetic fields are still present within the domains but they can't be aligned due to their non-magnetic properties?


No, there are no types of "domains" to be aligned in non-ferromagnetic materials. If there were domains, the material would be, by definition, ferromagnetic.

Originally posted by Kumar
Suppose, we rub other than ferromagnetic materials--what will happen to our applied KE on rubbing?

Even though I'm sure someone has already said it before...

If you rub two objects together, applied kinetic energy is dissipated as heat lost through friction. Friction is ALWAYS dissipative. "Information" is not stored or radiated, it is lost as heat.

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mongpoovian
No, there are no types of "domains" to be aligned in non-ferromagnetic materials. If there were domains, the material would be, by definition, ferromagnetic.

Now let us consider atoms or molecules of any non-magnetic material. Suppose if any material is seprated in its molecules/ atoms--will then also, these seprated molecules/ atoms not hold any magnetic field?

If you rub two objects together, applied kinetic energy is dissipated as heat lost through friction. Friction is ALWAYS dissipative. "Information" is not stored or radiated, it is lost as heat.

Will it be 100% loss of our applied KE lost as heat? I assume some KE is invested in seprating those two materials as PE(as you gring any material into smaller particles) & some heat energy would have effected the molecules of two materials, which got converted in some new form effected by heat thus produced on rubbing.

[Kumar]

Benjuin, BSM,

Some changes should be there on triturating, succussing--whenther it is entropy, photon effect, PE storing or otherwise.

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Kumar
Benjuin, BSM,

Some changes should be there on triturating, succussing--whenther it is entropy, photon effect, PE storing or otherwise.

Which part of 'No' didn't you understand?

[69dodge]

Originally posted by Kumar
Some changes should be there on triturating, succussing--whenther it is entropy, photon effect, PE storing or otherwise.If you shake a bottle of water, it will get very slightly warmer. That's a change.

If you shake a bottle of water in which some substance was once dissolved but which has been diluted so much that only water remains, it will get very slightly warmer. That's a change.

But they're the same change.

Why do you think that preparing a homeopathic remedy produces a different result than shaking a bottle of water? In what way do you think the two bottles differ?

It's easy to tell whether a piece of iron has been magnetized: see if it sticks to your refrigerator. How would you go about determining whether a bottle of water is just a bottle of water or whether it is a homeopathic preparation? If you can't tell them apart, maybe it's because they're identical.

[Hellbound]

Suppose, we rub other than ferromagnetic materials--what will happen to our applied KE on rubbing?

Suppose you rub two brain cells together, you might just kick start it into comprehension?

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
Some changes should be there on triturating, succussing--whenther it is entropy, photon effect, PE storing or otherwise. If you think homeopathy might work, then yes, you would reasonably expect some physical difference in a properly prepared remedy. But in fact, no such difference can be detected. What does that tell you about homeopathy?

Well, nothing, in YOUR case, but it tells the rest of us an awful lot.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by 69dodge

Why do you think that preparing a homeopathic remedy produces a different result than shaking a bottle of water? In what way do you think the two bottles differ?

Water don't show effect whereas homeopathic remedies shows effect. Reg: scientific testing, It is to be improved to test these remedies. I am only trying to find any technical possibility for the same.

[geni]

Originally posted by Kumar
Water don't show effect whereas homeopathic remedies shows effect.

No they do not


Reg: scientific testing, It is to be improved to test these remedies.

Science generaly tries to avoide producing wrong results


I am only trying to find any technical possibility for the same. [/B]

Show there is an effect and we might care.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by geni
No they do not



Science generaly tries to avoide producing wrong results



Show there is an effect and we might care.

It is bit 'not yet known aspect'. You may go on awnsering my questions indefinitely, I may sometimes show the seed reasoning? Then, you can carry over. :)

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Water don't show effect whereas homeopathic remedies shows effect.

No they do not. People BELIEVE they have effect, but nobody has been able to SHOW effect.

Reg: scientific testing, It is to be improved to test these remedies.

I am only trying to find any technical possibility for the same.

And you are consistently failing.

Kumar, let's step back for a while for some general logic:

You are asking a lot of questions. Since you seem to believe the answers, you must somehow trust our authority and knowledge on these subjects. Since we build that knowledge on the established scientific knowledge, you implicitly trust that, too.

How come you will not accept the conclusions? Why do you think you can make better conclusions than us when you do not even understand the premises?

(Yes I know: It is long time and widely recognized, so it must be true................... Why do I bother at all? :rolleyes: )

Hans

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

This has been discussed several time & cleared by me repeatedly. So no point to discuss it again.

My latest questions are:-

Q1. Now let us consider atoms or molecules of any non-magnetic material. Suppose if any material is seprated in its molecules/ atoms--will then also, these seprated molecules/ atoms not hold any magnetic field?

Q2. Will it be 100% loss of our applied KE lost as heat? I assume some KE is invested in seprating those two materials as PE(as you gring any material into smaller particles) & some heat energy would have effected the molecules of two materials, which got converted in some new form effected by heat thus produced on rubbing.

Q3. How then, following effects works on non magnetic materials:-


Piezoelectricity Effect is the ability of certain crystals to produce a voltage when subjected to mechanical stress.

Pyroelectricity Effect is the electrical potential created in certain materials when they are heated.

Magnetocaloric Effect:Some magnetic materials heat up when they are placed in a magnetic field and cool down when they are removed from a magnetic field. This effect was discovered by E. Warburg in 1881 in pure iron. The size of the effect has been around .5 to 2°C per Tesla change in magnetic field. One Tesla is about 20,000 times the earth's magnetic field.

Recently, alloys of gadolinium, germanium and silicon have produces a much larger effect size of 3 to 4°C per Tesla change. The general equation for this material is; Gd_5(Si_xGe_1-x)_4, where x=0.5.

Entropy: a thermodynamic quantity representing the amount of energy in a system that is no longer available for doing mechanical work; "entropy increases as matter and energy in the universe degrade to an ultimate state of inert uniformity".A thermodynamic state or property that measures the degree of disorder or randomness of a system.

Internal Energy
Internal energy is defined as the energy associated with the random, disordered motion of molecules. It is separated in scale from the macroscopic ordered energy associated with moving objects; it refers to the invisible microscopic energy on the atomic and molecular scale.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans,

This has been discussed several time & cleared by me repeatedly. So no point to discuss it again.

So, since all your questions below have also been discussed and cleared several times, there is also no need to discuss them again? :rolleyes:

My latest questions are:-

Q1. Now let us consider atoms or molecules of any non-magnetic material. Suppose if any material is seprated in its molecules/ atoms--will then also, these seprated molecules/ atoms not hold any magnetic field?

Correct, they will not.

Q2. Will it be 100% loss of our applied KE lost as heat? I assume some KE is invested in seprating those two materials as PE(as you gring any material into smaller particles) & some heat energy would have effected the molecules of two materials, which got converted in some new form effected by heat thus produced on rubbing.

No, some of it can be lost as sound, air movement, and possible other kinds of losses. Yes, there could be some potential energy hidden away in stickyness of some materials. Yes, some temperature sensitive compounds might be chemically changed.

Q3. How then, following effects works on non magnetic materials:-

Piezoelectricity Effect is the ability of certain crystals to produce a voltage when subjected to mechanical stress.

Seems you already found your answer. What is it you want to know?

Pyroelectricity Effect is the electrical potential created in certain materials when they are heated.

Yes, and the effect can be reversible, such that an electrical current causes a temperature change (thermocouple effect).

Magnetocaloric Effect:Some magnetic materials heat up when they are placed in a magnetic field and cool down when they are removed from a magnetic field. This effect was discovered by E. Warburg in 1881 in pure iron. The size of the effect has been around .5 to 2°C per Tesla change in magnetic field. One Tesla is about 20,000 times the earth's magnetic field.

Recently, alloys of gadolinium, germanium and silicon have produces a much larger effect size of 3 to 4°C per Tesla change. The general equation for this material is; Gd_5(Si_xGe_1-x)_4, where x=0.5.

Nice cut and paste. And? Your question is?

Entropy: a thermodynamic quantity representing the amount of energy in a system that is no longer available for doing mechanical work; "entropy increases as matter and energy in the universe degrade to an ultimate state of inert uniformity".A thermodynamic state or property that measures the degree of disorder or randomness of a system.

No need to cut and paste all this. WE already know all that.

It's like a small child in a toy-store: I want that! --and that! --and that! .............

Kumar, what you are doing, in fact, what you have been doing all the time, only it has become rather desperate lately, is what we call "grasping at straws".

There is NO scientific way to explain hoemopathy. Better people than you have tried to find it and failed. You have failed, too. Deal with it.

Hans

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

As evident by your postings, learned homeopaths told you several time that homeopathy do work but still you do not agree & asks/contadict/present several questions & views. Alike, I also do here & there. So nothing exceptional.

"Q1. Now let us consider atoms or molecules of any non-magnetic material. Suppose if any material is seprated in its molecules/ atoms--will then also, these seprated molecules/ atoms not hold any magnetic field?

A.Correct, they will not."

How then Magnetocaloric Effect on alloys of gadolinium, germanium and silicon become possible? How then entropy works? How then internal energy changes? I think you are missing "Magnetic fields by microscopic currents associated with electrons in atomic orbits.

"Magnetic fields are produced by electric currents, which can be macroscopic currents in wires, or microscopic currents associated with electrons in atomic orbits.

No, some of it can be lost as sound, air movement, and possible other kinds of losses. Yes, there could be some potential energy hidden away in stickyness of some materials. Yes, some temperature sensitive compounds might be chemically changed.

Let us say accordingly that, some applied KE is stored as PE in the processes of homeopathic preparations.

One concept left as was edited by me:-

Do we not changes internal energy patterns on applying KE as in homeopathic preparations?

[Rolfe]

Hans, are you on tranquillisers? :D

Rolfe.

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Kumar

As evident by your postings, learned homeopaths told you several time that homeopathy do work

"Learned" homoeopaths claim all the time that homoeopathy works, but why is it so difficult for them to present proof?


Do we not changes internal energy patterns on applying KE as in homeopathic preparations?
Kumar, in your postings you do not seem to realise that there is a difference between energy and information. It is true that you use energy in order to store information, but you can also use energy to destroy information.

With each subsequent dilution you lose information from the homoeopathic remedy. Even if it was true that the active ingredients left some information in the water (which it is not) then this information would be lost (literally drowned) in all the information that, according to this absurd theory, would be in the water already. Think of the fact that all water on Earth has been in contact with all possible ingredients in existence. If all these ingredients left an imprint on the water, it would be impossible to distinguish this imprint from any imprint that the homoeopath is trying to introduce.

And, in any case, as we now know, homoeopathy is not based on water memory alone. The process of "grafting" introduces the concept where the presumed healing power can jump from one pill to another. You can forget all about your KE's and PE's: Water is not even involved in "grafting"!

(Edited to correct quoting)

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans,

As evident by your postings, learned homeopaths told you several time that homeopathy do work but still you do not agree & asks/contadict/present several questions & views. Alike, I also do here & there. So nothing exceptional.

As evident by my postings, I hold that "learned homeopaths" are wrong. I hold that everything they believe about how disease works, and how remedies work is wrong. I support this with their lack of ability to provide evidence.

You, in contrast, try to support yourself on the science you are trying to denounce. Your position lacks inner logic. You cannot support yourself on science and use that to denounce science, your position is self-refuting.

*snip*
How then Magnetocaloric Effect on alloys of gadolinium, germanium and silicon become possible?

I don't know the details. Why should it not be possible?

How then entropy works? How then internal energy changes?

What on EARTH has magnetic properties to do with that?

I think you are missing "Magnetic fields by microscopic currents associated with electrons in atomic orbits.

No, I am not missing it. It was not what you asked about.

*snip*

Let us say accordingly that, some applied KE is stored as PE in the processes of homeopathic preparations.

Yes and let us say that pigs can fly. Both makes equal sense.

One concept left as was edited by me:-

Do we not changes internal energy patterns on applying KE as in homeopathic preparations?

What patterns? "Internal energy patterns"... that is just fancy words. What do you MEAN by it? What are those patterns supposed to look like? How are they supposed to mimick the raw substance? How are they supposed to stay unchanged? How are they supposed to transfer to lactose? To the body?

Kumar, listen: Do you accept science, or do you reject it? You cannot have it both ways.

Hans

[Kumar]

Sttenkh,

Water, alcohol or lactose used in homeopathic preparation may not contain any effect of other/common substances. Eventhough, these contains that will be considered as standard/constant & the effect of remedy will be in addition to this standard/constant.

In view of discussions, I think some memory in water,alcohol,lactose should be possible caused either by photons released, entropy or internal energy changes by homeopathic processes. Instead of taking "avogadro law for material/atoms/molecules" in consideration, we may have to consider somewhat "avogadro law for energy particles/energy". We may also, have to check some effects by changes in water, alcohol or lactose resulted by change in their structure or confrigurations, internal energy, MF, entropy during homeopathic processes.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Sttenkh,

Water, alcohol or lactose used in homeopathic preparation may not contain any effect of other/common substances. Eventhough, these contains that will be considered as standard/constant & the effect of remedy will be in addition to this standard/constant.

Translation: There may be nothing there, but I desperately need to believe that it works anyway.

In view of discussions, I think some memory in water,alcohol,lactose should be possible caused either by photons released, entropy or internal energy changes by homeopathic processes.

"entropy" ... taste it; "entropy". A nice word, isn't it? Now go and read about it, and please don't mention it again till you actually understand what it is about, OK?

Instead of taking "avogadro law for material/atoms/molecules" in consideration, we may have to consider somewhat "avogadro law for energy particles/energy".

But dear Kumar, we we don't seem to have a choice. You see, Avogadro's Law is a law of nature. We cannot just choose to ignore it, just like we cannot choose to ignore gravity, just because is doen't fit our purpose.

And, I'm terribly sorry, but energy is not just some particles you can mix into a glass of water. Energy and energy conversion follows some quite simple and very well-known rules that also happen to be natural laws which we just have to abide by, whether we like it or not.

We may also, have to check some effects by changes in water, alcohol or lactose resulted by change in their structure or confrigurations, internal energy, MF, entropy during homeopathic processes.

We can check all we will. And, as I already told you, it HAS been checked. Nothing was found. Sorry.

Hans

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Kumar, listen: Do you accept science, or do you reject it? You cannot have it both ways.

Hans It is always better to understand any concept in logics, in what we can see & within current available science keeping the scope of any future possibility.

Since, you say that future possibilities are always open, I can't say that I accept or reject science. We have gone upto MOON but since science is furthur trying, we can hope to visit any other planet. Just remember(may be somewhat your words: Science is never complete (absolute in my words)).

So don't assume for certainity & final--and so listen, Don't comment & pose accordingly.

Coming to the point;

"How then Magnetocaloric Effect on alloys of gadolinium, germanium and silicon become possible?

A.I don't know the details. Why should it not be possible?"

How magnetic field can effect these non/para magnetic materials if their molecules do not have magnetic properties?

"How then entropy works? How then internal energy changes?

A.What on EARTH has magnetic properties to do with that?"

Homeopathic applied energies on potentisation can effect entropy/Internal energy of materials--making those to be differant.

You can give a second look on other questions/aspects.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
It is always better to understand any concept in logics, in what we can see & within current available science keeping the scope of any future possibility.

I quite agree, you should try it sometimes.

Since, you say that future possibilities are always open, I can't say that I accept or reject science. We have gone upto MOON but since science is furthur trying, we can hope to visit any other planet. Just remember(may be somewhat your words: Science is never complete (absolute in my words)).

Nice evation, but I won't bite. Because we might go to Mars is the science that brought us to the Moon then no longer valid? You HAVE to accept or reject science, there is no middle road. Either you accept that the knowledge you ask about is valid, in which case you must accept the conclusions, or else you reject it all. Sure, SOME of what we presently call knowledge might turn out to be wrong, but we don't know which. YOU are certainly not qualified to judge which.

So don't assume for certainity & final--and so listen, Don't comment & pose accordingly.

I will comment and pose exactly as I please, thank you very much. You have been indirectly insulting me for most of a year, now, and I have been VERY patient and tolerant, but don't push me.

Coming to the point;

Promises, promises...

How magnetic field can effect these non/para magnetic materials if their molecules do not have magnetic properties?

Nobody said they do not have magnetic properties. They do not have magnetic FIELDS.

*snip*

Homeopathic applied energies on potentisation can effect entropy/Internal energy of materials--making those to be differant.

Kumar, I already said this: Don't mention entropy again till you understand what it is (and then you won't because you will realize why it is completely irrelevant here).


Kumar, one of the sure woowoo signs is mentioning entropy out of context. Don't give yourself away so easily ;).

Hans

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Kumar
Sttenkh,

Water, alcohol or lactose used in homeopathic preparation may not contain any effect of other/common substances. Eventhough, these contains that will be considered as standard/constant & the effect of remedy will be in addition to this standard/constant.

In view of discussions, I think some memory in water,alcohol,lactose should be possible caused either by photons released, entropy or internal energy changes by homeopathic processes. Instead of taking "avogadro law for material/atoms/molecules" in consideration, we may have to consider somewhat "avogadro law for energy particles/energy". We may also, have to check some effects by changes in water, alcohol or lactose resulted by change in their structure or confrigurations, internal energy, MF, entropy during homeopathic processes.
As I said, even if all this pseudoscience were true, how do you prevent the homoeopathic information being drowned by all the other information that must be stored in everything according to your theories?

[Kumar]

steenkh,

I think it should be by energy variations in remedy substance.

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MRC_Hans

I will comment and pose exactly as I please, thank you very much. You have been indirectly insulting me for most of a year, now, and I have been VERY patient and tolerant, but don't push me.

These are regular discussions,. You also do not hesitate accordingly. Anyway if you take it as insult, I just say sorry, but I don't accept anything unless it is absolute or looks alike absolute inspite it is science or homeopathy.

Kumar, one of the sure woowoo signs is mentioning entropy out of context. Don't give yourself away so easily ;).

You can then explain otherwise.

We have sevaral concepts in Physics & Quantum science which are yet to be linked or yet to be researched. While trying to know something, not means that we are persuing homeopathy or discrediting science but it is that, we are just trying. Other type of discussions just spoil our relations & waste the time. We can utilize that time in some informative discussions--eventhough these are not much technical from my side.

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
We have sevaral concepts in Physics & Quantum science which are yet to be linked or yet to be researched.
They are not going to help you either.
Other type of discussions just spoil our relations & waste the time. We can utilize that time in some informative discussions--eventhough these are not much technical from my side.
These types of a discussion are a waste of time as well. They are even a waste of your time, Kumar, because it's clear you're not learning anything. As soon as you hear "no, that doesn't explain homeopathy" you stop listening.

You'd best stay away from entropy. Not only does entropy not explain how homeopathy might work, it very clearly implies that it will not...

[69dodge]

Originally posted by Kumar
Water don't show effect whereas homeopathic remedies shows effect.Not everyone agrees with you about this, of course.

Anyway ... "effect"? That's kind of vague. What sort of effect, exactly?

If I gave you a bottle of water and a bottle of homeopathic remedy, without telling you which was which, how would you distinguish them?

Have you ever personally tried this experiment? Try it a few times. You might find that you can't reliably distinguish them, after all.

[Zamzara]

Kumar, homepaths are always telling me that homepathy is 100% safe and never causes side effects. What does that suggest to you about how much effect the remedies are having on the human body?

[Kumar]

Higher potentised remedies are non-toxic, still wrong use can produce aggravations, proving symptoms & other effects which look like worsening of case. Tissue remedies are similar biochemicals to our body & these do not produce any side/adverse/toxic effect & are considered safest. Still prescribing as per rules by an homeopath is the right approach.

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zombified
They are not going to help you either.

These types of a discussion are a waste of time as well. They are even a waste of your time, Kumar, because it's clear you're not learning anything. As soon as you hear "no, that doesn't explain homeopathy" you stop listening.

But I don't think that I am not learning.

You'd best stay away from entropy. Not only does entropy not explain how homeopathy might work, it very clearly implies that it will not...

Why?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by 69dodge
Not everyone agrees with you about this, of course.

Anyway ... "effect"? That's kind of vague. What sort of effect, exactly?

If I gave you a bottle of water and a bottle of homeopathic remedy, without telling you which was which, how would you distinguish them?

Have you ever personally tried this experiment? Try it a few times. You might find that you can't reliably distinguish them, after all. We can check it by its effects. Anyhow, these remededies may not like distrusting, skeptism, doubts etc. because just energy based, not toxic chemical based. If you say nothing is there, we may have to think about all or most quantum studies---or what we have not seen, personally--as 'earth is round'.

[davefoc]

Kumar,
Have you ever tried making your own homeopathic remedies?

Can you make more by just diluting the stuff you've got and sucussing it? Or do you sucuss first and then dilute?

If the medicine is true strong after you've diluted it can you just take less and get the same result?

[Kumar]

davefoc ,

In short, I can differanciate between placebo & real effects. No doubt, you can't check chemicals in higher potencies but when technologies will be available we may be able to check energy based effects in remedies. At present, we can observe the effects by visiting homeopathic clinics & try to come out with some technical basis unabling to proceed in right direction.

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
But I don't think that I am not learning.With all due respect, Kumar, I have yet to see any evidence of your illumination. Perhaps you can give an example of something you think you've learned from all of this.

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
We can check it by its effects.
Excellent suggestion, have already done so. There are no effects.
Anyhow, these remededies may not like distrusting, skeptism, doubts etc. because just energy based, not toxic chemical based.Energy is not sensitive to the psychological state of the experimenter.
If you say nothing is there, we may have to think about all or most quantum studies---or what we have not seen, personally--as 'earth is round'. There is no explanation for homeopathy in quantum mechanics.

[Kumar]

Zombified,
Photons can effect substances, KE can be stored as PE, entropy, internal energy may change substances, Magnetocaloric & other potential effects, magnetism transfer with out effecting origional magnets. energy variations & propagation....like this so many. Other is about modern concept of diseases as diabetes, cancer etc, inflamatory disease linked with digestive pH. Other pHs--may be cancer/modern diseases linked to it...so many. But you can't assess it being skeptic.

Excellent suggestion, have already done so. There are no effects.
Energy is not sensitive to the psychological state of the experimenter.

Just your in-house understanding.

There is no explanation for homeopathy in quantum mechanics.

That is the only weakness & pending work of science to do for it.

[MRC_Hans]

Look here folks, I've been thinking, and I realize hat we have not been helpful to Kumar at all. We have been busy trying to teach him physics and things, but learning is not what he is looking for at all, he is looking for possibilities. He is looking for words and things where he can say: "Maybe expalanation in homeopathy a little lies here, and duty of science is exlpore more seek knowlegde."

So I think we should help him out. After all, everyting is equally possible in homeopathy.

For instance Kumar, about energy, have you thought about these:

http://www.orgone.org/

http://www.holistichealthtools.com/reiki.html

http://www.planetguide.net/book/chapter_3/chapter3.html

http://www.spiritnexus.org/diagrams/healing/energy-flows.htm

http://www.al.umces.edu/currie/energetics.htm

http://www.ftexploring.com/energy/heatflow.htm

http://www.yogachicago.com/jul04/eischens.shtml

http://succ.shirazu.ac.ir/~motor/page3.htm

...Just for starters.

Hans

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
KE can be stored as PE, entropy

Kumar

You say you have learned something. How can KE "stored" in entropy then help a homeopathic remedy work? If the remedy has more entropy does that mean you have stored more energy in it, which lets the remedy do its work on the body at a later stage?

Your chance to explain something.

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Kumar
I think it should be by energy variations in remedy substance.
Kumar,

I told you that energy and information is not the same thing. There is no such thing as an energy pattern that contains information.

Try again.

[Kumar]

http://www.ftexploring.com/enrgypics2/wolves22.jpg
Some animals use kinetic energy to catch and eat other animals.

http://www.ftexploring.com/enrgypics2/wildebeasts22.jpg

Some animals use kinetic energy to not get eaten by other animals.


http://www.ftexploring.com/enrgypics2/kids22.jpg

Sometimes kinetic energy is just fun. It feels darn good to run, or to be more technical, to convert potential energy stored in our cells into the kinetic energy of our body.

Mr.Hans,

Interesesting thanks, Internal Energy concept is there also. Pls understand & enjoy above from one of link, till I read the links.;).

"Energy is being transferred, by the process of heat flow, from his body to the surrounding water. It was internal energy that was transferred, not heat. We usually say he is losing heat. But what he is really losing is internal energy. Internal energy is the word that is more correctly used in thermodynamics to describe the microscopic forces and movements that are often called heat.

"There are just two ways that energy is transferred - by work or by heat. We often use the words work and heat as if they are forms of energy. I do it all the time and I'm not sorry. But some thermodynamic text books say that work and heat are processes or methods of energy transfer, not forms of energy.
When describing energy transfers in this way, we should say something like, "energy transferred during a work process". Or when talking about a heat process, we might be more correct to say, "energy transferred by heat flow".

"...heat and internal energy are two quite different things; the energy associated with microscopic motions and forces is internal energy, not heat."

"What we call heat flow is really the average result of trillions of atoms and molecules transferring their kinetic energy, through the work process, to other atoms and molecules

"molecules and atoms are spinning, vibrating, binding together with nuclear forces, storing energy as mass according to Einstein' equation, transferring electrons, or in the case of a gas, just generally flying around and banging into each other. When these tiny bits of matter bang into each other, or transfer electrons or electromagnetic energy, or vibrate or spin against each other, they transfer energy by doing work on each other. Yup, work is being done, one tiny atomic particle at a time.

I'll say it again. Because they are so really really (two really's) small, and because there are many trillions of them, and because things happen so fast, we cannot even begin to think about measuring the energy of each atomic particle. However, we can measure some things that indicate the average energy of all of them combined. When we measure temperature or pressure we are measuring the average energy of all of the atoms and molecules.
In fact temperature in a gas is often described (not defined!) as the average kinetic energy of all the atoms and molecules in the gas. "

*snips* from your link.

Internal- macroscopic--microscopic energies are important aspects to understand.

[Zep]

Oh Kumar. You have NO idea what you are talking about, do you...

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zep
Oh Kumar. You have NO idea what you are talking about, do you...

Hello Zep,

You can then explain accordingly.

[Zombified]

Kumar, why don't you pick one of the animals in the pictures and estimate how much kinetic energy it has. Don't have to be too close, just an order of magnitude. Please show your work.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zombified
Kumar, why don't you pick one of the animals in the pictures and estimate how much kinetic energy it has. Don't have to be too close, just an order of magnitude. Please show your work. "I'll say it again. Because they are so really really (two really's) small, and because there are many trillions of them, and because things happen so fast, we cannot even begin to think about measuring the energy of each atomic particle."

[MRC_Hans]

Come on, folks. I'm sure you can find some intersting links for Kumar. Look how he likes them and finds interesting words. Isn't it just cute?

Hans

[Zep]

Originally posted by Kumar
Hello Zep,

You can then explain accordingly. Certainly.

You.
Have.
No.
Idea.

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

Your following links out of those can be relevant to:-

"Energy, in the process we call heat or heat flow, is constantly flowing into and out of all objects, including living objects. Heat flow moves energy from a higher temperature to a lower temperature. The bigger the difference in temperature between two objects, the faster heat flows between them. When temperatures are the same there is no change in energy due to heat flow. Radiation and Conduction are the two methods of heat transfer. Convection is a special type of conduction. Heat has the units of energy; heat flow has the units of power."

http://www.holistichealthtools.com/reiki.html
http://www.spiritnexus.org/diagrams...nergy-flows.htm
http://www.yogachicago.com/jul04/eischens.shtml

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zep
Certainly.

You.
Have.
No.
Idea.

What you will/can do/contribute THEN?

I CAN become differant, due to following effects:-

http://www.ftexploring.com/enrgypics/cldgy20.gif
More heat is flowing out of this man's body than his metabolism can generate. He is cold.

http://www.ftexploring.com/enrgypics/htgy18.gif
More heat is flowing into this man's body than is flowing out. He is hot.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Kumar
"I'll say it again. Because they are so really really (two really's) small, and because there are many trillions of them, and because things happen so fast, we cannot even begin to think about measuring the energy of each atomic particle."

K = (1/2)mv^2
A wolf weighs, lets say, 60kg. Lets say the one in the pic is running at 36kph, or 10 mts/second. We can measure energy in Joules, which are (kg)(m^2)(s^-2), so we have all our units ready.
K(running wolf)=(1/2)(60)(10)^2=3000 joules.

Notice how I deftly avoided calculating the energy of each atomic particle?

Edit: Oh, and I checked, you could have googled for every piece of info I used on the post.

[Kumar]

Donks,

Let me complete previous quote,

However, we can measure some things that indicate the average energy of all of them combined. When we measure temperature or pressure we are measuring the average energy of all of the atoms and molecules.
In fact temperature in a gas is often described (not defined!) as the average kinetic energy of all the atoms and molecules in the gas. "

Now let me check in other sense:-

FIRST LAW of THERMODYNAMICS:
Any Change in the Internal Energy of a System U is due to either the Heat Flow into/out-of the System or due to Work Done by/on the System provided the system's center-of-mass energy does not change.

INTERNAL ENERGY U
Energy Stored in a System at the Molecular Level.
The System's Thermal Energy -the Kinetic Energy of the atoms due to their random motion relative to the Center of Mass plus the binding energy (Potential Energy) that holds the atoms together.
U = Microscopic Energy contained in the System

Why internal energy of homeopathic remedies substances can't be effected by Work Done on potentisation process?

[Donks]

Blah, blah, blah...
Lets see what Zombified asked you to do.
Kumar, why don't you pick one of the animals in the pictures and estimate how much kinetic energy it has. Don't have to be too close, just an order of magnitude. Please show your work.
He's asking you to estimate the kinetic energy. Step by step now, lets see what's kinetic energy.
Kinetic energy is energy possessed by a body by virtue of its motion.
Now, to estimate it you can use "the integral of the dot product of the velocity (v) of a body and the infinitesimal of the body's momentum (p)."
Or you can do a quick aproximation. He's asking for something not too close.
The animals seem to be moving in rather a straight line, so we use the Newtonian aproximation for a body moving in a straight line at a constant velocity. The formula is:
K=(1/2)mv^2
The potentisation process of woodom does not affect a running wolf.

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Kumar
Donks,

Let me complete previous quote,

However, we can measure some things that indicate the average energy of all of them combined. When we measure temperature or pressure we are measuring the average energy of all of the atoms and molecules.
In fact temperature in a gas is often described (not defined!) as the average kinetic energy of all the atoms and molecules in the gas. "

Now let me check in other sense:-

FIRST LAW of THERMODYNAMICS:
Any Change in the Internal Energy of a System U is due to either the Heat Flow into/out-of the System or due to Work Done by/on the System provided the system's center-of-mass energy does not change.

INTERNAL ENERGY U
Energy Stored in a System at the Molecular Level.
The System's Thermal Energy -the Kinetic Energy of the atoms due to their random motion relative to the Center of Mass plus the binding energy (Potential Energy) that holds the atoms together.
U = Microscopic Energy contained in the System

Why internal energy of homeopathic remedies substances can't be effected by Work Done on potentisation process?

Even if their was something in this, how would the outcome be any different from shaking a bottle of ordinary water?

Why do some experiments yourself Kumar? We know this is nonsense, you will too if you go and try and prove it for yourself.

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Benguin
Even if their was something in this, how would the outcome be any different from shaking a bottle of ordinary water?

Outcome can be differant if we shake bottle containing ordinary water & juice.

Why do some experiments yourself Kumar? We know this is nonsense, you will too if you go and try and prove it for yourself.

Benguin, we are not concerned about the results but we are concerned about 'how it can happen'? We just have to relate some concept as effects then will be justified.

[The Don]

Originally posted by Kumar

Benguin, we are not concerned about the results but we are concerned about 'how it can happen'? We just have to relate some concept as effects then will be justified.
That's the most ridicuous thing I've ever heard....I'm not interested in whether or not I can become invisible but I would like an in-depth discussion about how I've managed to.

[Kumar]

To the subject, I may ask one question:-

Suppose, we sit under sun in bright sun-light & keep our legs in very cold water filled in a metal bucket. I think we will loose some of our heat or internal energy by doing this. I want to know that:

Shall we get/compensate the heat/ internal energy lost by keeping our legs in cold water from the sun/atmosphere/free energy or not??

[steenkh]

Kumar,

You are really out in the deep with your latest posts.

First of all, you still have not commented on the fact that energy is not the same as information.

Secondly, your pretty pictures of running animals were all wrong: They were using chemical energy, not kinetic energy to produce motion (granted, they possesed kinetic energy, but they certainly do not kill with kinetic energy), and potential energy (PE) was not used at all (unless they were running down a slope).

Thirdly, you are not always hot because the environment is conferring energy to you. It is much more common that the heat energy your body is producing cannot be transferred effectively to the environment when the environment is too warm, or the humidity is too high. Then you feel hot.

Because humans are mammals, we continually burn food and generate heat. If you have your feet in a bucket of water, the blood circulation will usually transfer heat from the rest of the body so that you will not get frostbite. If the bucket is too cold, this process might not be efficient enough, and your feet could be damaged by the cold. Outside heat can also be transferred to the body, but under normal comfy temperatures, this is not as important as the heat you produce yourself.

But again, you are not storing any information with the energy, so all of this discussion has no bearing on homoeopathy.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
To the subject, I may ask one question:-

Suppose, we sit under sun in bright sun-light & keep our legs in very cold water filled in a metal bucket. I think we will loose some of our heat or internal energy by doing this. I want to know that:

Shall we get/compensate the heat/ internal energy lost by keeping our legs in cold water from the sun/atmosphere/free energy or not?? There will be three vectors, or energy flows.

1) Heat energy will flow from the body to the cold water (by conduction).

2) Heat energy will flow to the body from the sun/warm air (by radiation and conduction).

3) Heat energy will flow to the body by internal meatbolization (chemical energy).

Whether the net. energy flow will be positive or negative depends on the relative sizes of the energy flows. ANd these sizes depend on a number of factors:

- Temperature of the water.

- Temperature of the air.

- Strenght of the sunlight.

- Level of metabolism.

- Contact area to water.

- Exposure area to sun.

- Clothing or other insulation.

..etc, ..etc.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
*snip*
Why internal energy of homeopathic remedies substances can't be effected by Work Done on potentisation process? But it does. The remedy will have increased internal energy right after succussion. It will be slightly warmer. Of course, the warmth from the fingers of the person doing the shaking will probably have far more influence.

Hans

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans, steenkh,

It therefore indicates that if we loose energy we can also get the same from atmosphere,free energy or sun-light---may it also include other cosmic rays. Our body can also compensate for the lost energy by its own means--but it may prefer the outside source first to conserve the internal energy. There can be a flow of energy from these sources, if we loose some energy?

Now, can this flow be resisted/effected due to some defects in us? Will the flow of this outside energy match with what we have lost or not?

Steenkh,

I think somewhat Magnetic tape or What causes different colors in flames? (http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae569.cfm), can be the awnser.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
But it does. The remedy will have increased internal energy right after succussion. It will be slightly warmer. Of course, the warmth from the fingers of the person doing the shaking will probably have far more influence.

Hans

Mr.Hans,

What does it mean that 'to accelrate/jump to higher orbit electrons, we need energy to put in & energy is released when it cools down/jump to lower orbit?

OR(ref. above link)
"Electrons on atoms have different amounts of energy proportional to the distance of their orbital from the nucleus. Electrons (which are negative) close to the positive nucleus have lower potential energy; those in "higher" energy levels farther away have more energy. In order for an e- to "jump" from a lower level to a higher one it must absorb energy, often in the form of light. Conversely when an e- "falls" from a higher level to a lower one, it gives off energy, again in the form of a photon of light. "

[The Don]

Originally posted by Kumar
Our body can also compensate for the lost energy by its own means--but it may prefer the outside source first to conserve the internal energy. There can be a flow of energy from these sources, if we loose some energy?
Sounds rather like the breatharian approach. The human body can sustain itself by absorbing energy from its surroundings. Trouble is, studies have shown that it doesn't work

[Kumar]

Originally posted by The Don
Sounds rather like the breatharian approach. The human body can sustain itself by absorbing energy from its surroundings. Trouble is, studies have shown that it doesn't work

Probably, due to some defects in us by say modern addictions/irregularities (as I am asking) & we need to practice/medicate to correct it.

[The Don]

Originally posted by Kumar
Probably, due to some defects in us by say modern addictions/irregularities (as I am asking) & we need to practice/medicate to correct it.
No, it's due to the fact that there is no mechanism by which energy can be absorbed in a way that can be used by the human body. Being in a warm room does not enable us to abosorb energy (which fo example could be stored as fat) it merely reduces the amount of energy taken to maintain our body temperature.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by The Don
No, it's due to the fact that there is no mechanism by which energy can be absorbed in a way that can be used by the human body. Being in a warm room does not enable us to abosorb energy (which fo example could be stored as fat) it merely reduces the amount of energy taken to maintain our body temperature. If we can't absorb, how can then you can say "it merely reduces the amount of energy taken to maintain our body temperature."

[The Don]

The rate at which heat is lost is dependent on, among other things, the difference in temperature between body temperature and air temperature. No matter how hot the external temperature gets, the mechanism by which the body creates energy from food stores does not go into reverse. In other words, if the external temperature exceeds body temperature, the excess body heat is NOT turned back into body fat. It's the way the machine works.

It's precisely the same way that if you apply heat, sound and exhaust gases to an internal combustion engine, you don't end up with petrol being created.

Why not read up about basic physiology rather than plucking hypotheses out of thin air.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans,

What does it mean that 'to accelrate/jump to higher orbit electrons, we need energy to put in & energy is released when it cools down/jump to lower orbit?

*snip* No, this has nothing to do with heat. In heat energy, the whole atom/molecule moves/vibrates. Energy from electrons changing level will normally be exchanged as photons, and usually more energetic than heat.

When you heat or cool something, electrons don't change level ("orbit").

Hans

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Kumar
It therefore indicates that if we loose energy we can also get the same from atmosphere,free energy or sun-light---may it also include other cosmic rays. Our body can also compensate for the lost energy by its own means--but it may prefer the outside source first to conserve the internal energy. There can be a flow of energy from these sources, if we loose some energy?

Our body burns our food all the time. We do not rely on outside heat in order to conserve energy - at least not on the scale that concerns us here. You will get hungry even if you living in a hot desert.

[/quote]
I think somewhat Magnetic tape or What causes different colors in flames? (http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae569.cfm), can be the awnser. [/QUOTE]
No, it is not the answer. There is information stored on the magnetic tape, and you used energy in order to store it, but the information is not stored in the energy level. Different materials give off different coloured light when heated, but this is not information that is stored in order to be retrieved later. If you wanted to store information in this way, you would have to make some code of materials, and you would use energy in order to assemble the materials, but this is just like you use energy to deposit the magnetic material on the magnetic tape. The information is not stored in the energy.

You will be hard pressed to find evidence that energy is the same as information. Your theory is simply wrong.

And if there was information in a homoeopathic solution, you would still have to explain why the information you want is not drowned in information you do not want.

But there is a way out! You could simply invoke MAGIC and all your problems will be solved. Homoeopathy is magic, and you can just as well get used to it.

And like all other magic, it does not work!

[Kumar]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
No, this has nothing to do with heat. In heat energy, the whole atom/molecule moves/vibrates. Energy from electrons changing level will normally be exchanged as photons, and usually more energetic than heat.

When you heat or cool something, electrons don't change level ("orbit").

Hans

I don't know it is correct or wrong:-

"OK. So in the flame, electrons get excited and pushed to higher energy levels by the heat energy. When they fall back down, they give off photons of light of different colors, based upon how far they fall. Different temperatures cause electrons to jump to different levels, but different types of atoms also have energy levels that are different distances apart. Thus putting copper into a flame causes a green glow because electrons on the copper atoms are falling and jumping exactly the right distance to emit or absorb photons of the frequency we see as green (you can try this with a penny)

The same idea explains not only color in flames, but all the colors we see. "
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae569.cfm

[steenkh]

Hans,

Kumar has a point here which has nothing to do with his silly homoeopathy theories: What does actually happen when you put a piece of copper in a flame? I know that the electrons only temporarily occupy a more energetic level before they fall back to their old level, so after having given off a photon, the electron occupies the old position again. But the copper atom is still warmer than before, right? How is this heat stored in the atom?

I also notice that when you put a piece of copper in a flame, it is only the flame that is glowing green, not the piece of copper itself. Presumably, some copper atoms are vaporised off the piece and give off the light. Are these copper atoms then much warmer than the copper piece? And why?

[Zamzara]

http://www.smaug.org.uk/fire2.jpg

Kinetic and heat energy, heat flow, photons, vibration, quanta etc. are all plentiful here. Is this therefore evidence that these things are a good asset to healing?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by steenkh
Our body burns our food all the time. We do not rely on outside heat in order to conserve energy - at least not on the scale that concerns us here. You will get hungry even if you living in a hot desert.


I think somewhat Magnetic tape or What causes different colors in flames? (http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae569.cfm), can be the awnser. [/QUOTE]
No, it is not the answer. There is information stored on the magnetic tape, and you used energy in order to store it, but the information is not stored in the energy level. Different materials give off different coloured light when heated, but this is not information that is stored in order to be retrieved later. If you wanted to store information in this way, you would have to make some code of materials, and you would use energy in order to assemble the materials, but this is just like you use energy to deposit the magnetic material on the magnetic tape. The information is not stored in the energy.

You will be hard pressed to find evidence that energy is the same as information. Your theory is simply wrong.

And if there was information in a homoeopathic solution, you would still have to explain why the information you want is not drowned in information you do not want.

But there is a way out! You could simply invoke MAGIC and all your problems will be solved. Homoeopathy is magic, and you can just as well get used to it.

And like all other magic, it does not work! [/QUOTE]

I think we may have to understand some colour coding caused by differant photons on remedy's substance.

'Why don't we ever speak of sub-atomic particles as having 'color'?' To answer the question it is necessary to point out that light is, of course, made up of photons -- each one having its own energy and hence its own frequency. The frequency range of the electromagnetic spectrum that is visible to the human eye (and which we refer to as 'color') is a very small region in the entire range of photon energies we have observed in nature.
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae160.cfm

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zamzara


Kinetic and heat energy, heat flow, photons, vibration, quanta etc. are all plentiful here. Is this therefore evidence that these things are a good asset to healing? Ayurveda, Great ancient system of healing starts from materials found on volcanic erruptions --I just rember. Sulphur was one.

[Anders]

Originally posted by Kumar


I think we may have to understand some colour coding caused by differant photons on remedy's substance.
Humanity already have unvield the secret of color: Photon frequence. Different materials block certain frequences, because the photons exite different orbitals. All spicies have a certain color fingerprint that can be shown using a spectrometer: take a look here (http://artsci-ccwin.concordia.ca/facstaff/a-c/bird/c241/D2-part2.html) Funny thing that homeopathic remedies never show anything but glass and water on spectrometer graphs! Go figure!

[flume]

You might also want to read about fluorescent and phosphorescent materials, like glow-in-the-dark toys. The effect of photons on substances is very specific, depending on the structure of the molecule and the wavelength of the photon. You would be incorrect in assuming that any material interacting with any photon could have any effect.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Anders
Humanity already have unvield the secret of color: Photon frequence. Different materials block certain frequences, because the photons exite different orbitals. All spicies have a certain color fingerprint that can be shown using a spectrometer: take a look here (http://artsci-ccwin.concordia.ca/facstaff/a-c/bird/c241/D2-part2.html) Funny thing that homeopathic remedies never show anything but glass and water on spectrometer graphs! Go figure!

At the sub-atomic level 'color' is not an intrinsic property of anything. The same electron is just as capable of emitting X-rays, orange light, or radio waves -- all that matters is the environment and interactions it finds itself in contact with. Thus color is rightfully a property of complex substances (molecules, crystals etc.), rather than of the constituents that make them up.
The reason there is no 'color spectrum' as such at the sub-atomic level is that, within the nucleus, the difference between energy levels, delta E, is substantially greater than the differences that typically occur between allowed electron orbits around the nucleus. Therefore, when transitions occur within the nucleus, there is a discrete spectrum of emitted frequencies, but the spectral lines occur at much higher frequencies so that they do not fall within the visible, or color, spectrum that we can see with our eyes. (From same link as previously mentioned)

Can spectrometer measure all frequencies, density & temp.?

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Kumar

I think we may have to understand some colour coding caused by differant photons on remedy's substance.
There is no problem in understanding colour. The problem lies in storing information in water by means of photons of specific energy. Even if you hit a water molecule with a photon that it can absorb, you have no way of ensuring that it does not dissipate the energy to the other water molecules around it - that is what water does! No way of storing information here. Light of all colours strikes water all the time. How would you prevent this so that only your homoeopathic photons do so?

Please do not just repeat yourself one more time. Address the question and do not just google for something more about photons and colours. It will not help your argument.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Kumar
Can spectrometer measure all frequencies, density & temp.?

No.

Your move is to say; "AHA! Therefore..."

My move is to call you an unflattering name.

How about we play another game, he who only writes correct english when he forgets his JREF character?

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by steenkh
Please do not just repeat yourself one more time. Address the question and do not just google for something more about photons and colours. It will not help your argument.

It is a troll. A homeopathetic troll. Emphasis on "pathetic."

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by steenkh
Hans,

Kumar has a point here which has nothing to do with his silly homoeopathy theories: What does actually happen when you put a piece of copper in a flame? I know that the electrons only temporarily occupy a more energetic level before they fall back to their old level, so after having given off a photon, the electron occupies the old position again. But the copper atom is still warmer than before, right? How is this heat stored in the atom?

Hey, watch the vet answer a physics question badly. The atoms in the piece of copper will be vibrating more rapidly. That is what increased temperature is. Some atoms shake free of the lattice and fly away into the flame where some of their electrons gain energyfrom incident photons and when falling back to lower energy levels emit green light.

Presumably, some copper atoms are vaporised off the piece and give off the light. Are these copper atoms then much warmer than the copper piece? And why?

I don't know. Need a physicist. I suspect they are those atoms that have been given most energy hence their breaking away from the bulk material, so I think they must have higher kinetic energy and, hence, temperature.

[steenkh]

BSM,

Thanks!

[Kumar]

Everything is made up of electromagnetic energy vibrating at different frequencies that correspond to sound, light and color.
Colors are frequency wavelengths - the primary colors following a spectrum called ROYGBIV.
http://www.crystalinks.com/colors.html

Still it is an alt. System, but colour therapy or Solar medicines do exists.


One more effect:-

Compton effect: Photons have energy and momentum just as material particles do; they also have wave characteristics, such as wavelength and frequency. The energy of photons is directly proportional to their frequency and inversely proportional to their wavelength, so lower-energy photons have lower frequencies and longer wavelengths. In the Compton effect, individual photons collide with single electrons that are free or quite loosely bound in the atoms of matter. Colliding photons transfer some of their energy and momentum to the electrons, which in turn recoil. In the instant of the collision, new photons of less energy and momentum are produced that scatter at angles the size of which depends on the amount of energy lost to the recoiling electrons.

[Anders]

Originally posted by Kumar
Can spectrometer measure all frequencies, density & temp.?
It scans all light frequencies. Yes, you can calculate the concentration and from that the density. To measure temperatures we usually use a thermometer. This is pure science, and the same pure science shows that Homeopathic remedies have no effect, and contain nothing but water or alcohol.

Is this going somewhere?

[Anders]

Originally posted by Kumar
Everything is made up of electromagnetic energy vibrating at different frequencies that correspond to sound, light and color.
Colors are frequency wavelengths - the primary colors following a spectrum called ROYGBIV.
http://www.crystalinks.com/colors.html

Still it is an alt. System, but colour therapy or Solar medicines do exists.


Not all thing are made of electromagnetic energy vibrations, it's just electromagnetic radiation that is made of electromagnetic energy. Sound is vibrations in a physical medium like air or water, and that has nothing to do with electromagnetic radiation!

Color therapy is, well, probably just bogus. Rudolf Steiner had thoughts abot color therapy, and that was also bogus.

Where is this leading?

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
Compton effect
One more aspect of quantum mechanics that has nothing, whatsoever, to do with homeopathy. I don't even see how this is possibly relevant except in the most general "light interacting with matter sense."

This exercise in free association is getting you nowhere, Kumar. I hope you are taking plenty of breaks, stretching your arms regularly, exercising daily, and drinking plenty of fluids; I would hate for you to get a repetitive stress injury for nothing.

[Kumar]

Anders, Zombified,

I mentioned so much. Now, can you tell some possibile effects by photons which can probably leave some information on remedy substances?

[The Don]

None, none whatsoever

[Anders]

Originally posted by Kumar
Anders, Zombified,

I mentioned so much. Now, can you tell some possibile effects by photons which can probably leave some information on remedy substances?
Yeah, but then we are talking gamma or beta radiation, and last time I checked, homeopaths very seldom has access to accelarators.

So No, Kumar, no effect by light shining on bottles of water...

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Kumar
Anders, Zombified,

I mentioned so much. Now, can you tell some possibile effects by photons which can probably leave some information on remedy substances?
I know you did not invite me, but here it goes: photography. Light has an effect on certain chemicals that cause them to change. In fact, one the first postings on this thread gave a list of substances that were affected by light. But your problem is that you want water to be affected, and if such an effect did exist, how on earth would you ensure that only beneficial light would be "recorded" in the water?

Are we going in circles here? Perhaps if you will just read the previous answers, then you can save yourself a lot of trouble. Eventually we will tire of spoon-feeding these concepts to you.

(Edited to correct spelling)

[Zombified]

Originally posted by steenkh
Are we going in circles here?
I feel very dizzy...

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by steenkh
Hans,

Kumar has a point here which has nothing to do with his silly homoeopathy theories: What does actually happen when you put a piece of copper in a flame? I know that the electrons only temporarily occupy a more energetic level before they fall back to their old level, so after having given off a photon, the electron occupies the old position again. But the copper atom is still warmer than before, right? How is this heat stored in the atom?

I also notice that when you put a piece of copper in a flame, it is only the flame that is glowing green, not the piece of copper itself. Presumably, some copper atoms are vaporised off the piece and give off the light. Are these copper atoms then much warmer than the copper piece? And why? I don't know the details, but the green comes from copper oxide, no copper, so I assume some of the copper is actually burning. I'm an electronic engineer, not a chemical engineer. Kumar has point?? Don't make me laugh.........


Hans

[69dodge]

Originally posted by Kumar
We can check it by its effects.?!

I said:<blockquote>"effect"? That's kind of vague. What sort of effect, exactly?</blockquote>and you replied:<blockquote>We can check it by its effects.</blockquote>Not all that helpful a response ...

Then I said:<blockquote>If I gave you a bottle of water and a bottle of homeopathic remedy, without telling you which was which, how would you distinguish them?

Have you ever personally tried this experiment? Try it a few times. You might find that you can't reliably distinguish them, after all.</blockquote>and you replied:<blockquote>these remededies may not like distrusting, skeptism, doubts etc.</blockquote>A couple of comments: (1) Anything is possible, of course, but on the other hand none of the scientific mechanisms you are proposing dislikes skepticism, so they can't be how homeopathy works (if it does indeed work). (2) I may be skeptical, but you sure aren't. So, you should have no trouble distinguishing the two bottles, right? If you can't say which is which unless you already know ... well, isn't that the definition of "placebo effect"?

[Correa Neto]

Originally posted by Kumar
We can check it by its effects. Anyhow, these remededies may not like distrusting, skeptism, doubts etc. because just energy based, not toxic chemical based. If you say nothing is there, we may have to think about all or most quantum studies---or what we have not seen, personally--as 'earth is round'.

"May not like"? So energy has feelings now?

Have you forgotten that we can actually see that the Earth is round? Have you forgotten the discussions about it? What people told you about? Or you have chosen to ignore it?

And you also forgot -or chosen to ignore- what was told about "cosmic energies".

Actually this aplies to everything the people here explains to you.

All these threads are nothing but waste of bandwidht.

edited for my poor spelling - nevermind, there are still errors

[Kumar]

Originally posted by steenkh
I know you did not invite me, but here it goes: photography. Light has an effect on certain chemicals that cause them to change. In fact, one the first postings on this thread gave a list of substances that were affected by light. But your problem is that you want water to be affected, and if such an effect did exist, how on earth would you ensure that only beneficial light would be "recorded" in the water?

steenkh, No it was not my intention not to invite you or any other body, but since previous discussions were with them, so I just mentioned casually. Anyway sorry to you & others. You can understand that this question is general type question & all should/can try to contribute to it. I have seen photographic effect or Photochemistry(one as given below) but I couldn't relate it.

Anyway, pls try to recall more possibilities. I think photons produced during potentisation should be able to leave some information or imprint on remedy's substances. We have active substances, carriers-water,alcohol & lactose, contaminations esp.Silicon/Silica to consider. We may have to check some cummulative type effect which should remain after all molecules are diluted out--still effect of those to remain there.

Microwaves, radio waves, infrared, and ultraviolet waves are portions of the invisible electromagnetic spectrum. We cannot see these portions of the spectrum with our eyes, but we have invented devices (radios, infrared detectors, ultraviolet dyes, etc.) that let us detect these portions as well.

Light is neither a wave nor a particle, but has properties of both. Light can be focused like a wave, but its energy is distributed in discrete packets called photons. The energy of each photon is inversely related to the wavelength of the light -- blue light is the most energetic, while red light has the least energy per photon of exposure. Ultraviolet light (UV) is more energetic, but invisible to human eyes. Infrared light is also invisible, but if it is strong enough our skin detects it as heat.

It is the energy in each photon of light that causes a chemical change to the photographic detectors that are coated on the film. The process whereby electromagnetic energy causes chemical changes to matter is known as photochemistry. By carefully engineering materials, they can be chemically stable until they are exposed to radiation (light). Photochemistry comes in many different forms. For example, specially formulated plastics can be hardened (cured) by exposure to ultraviolet light, but exposure to visible light has no effect. When you get a sun tan, a photochemical reaction has caused the pigments in your skin to darken. Ultraviolet rays are particularly harmful to your skin because they are so energetic.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/film3.htm

[Kumar]

Hello all,

Please try to see which couldn't be looked as yet NOT which we have already looked. Otherwise, we will have to carried forward it to future research ot to our next generations.

It looks this concept is more related to Photochemistry & Photobiology.:)

[steenkh]

OK, Kumar, I see the picture. You are told time and again what is wrong with your theory, and you just choose not to think about the problems, but skips ahead like there was no problem at all. I cannot help but thinking you are doing it on purpose.

I have nothing more to add. Read the previous posts if you want commentaries to your nonsense.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by steenkh
But your problem is that you want water to be affected, and if such an effect did exist, how on earth would you ensure that only beneficial light would be "recorded" in the water?



You have told like that but we can think some effect of some specific photons created by sucussion/trituration of active substances with carriers, on water, alcohol & lactose.

If it does not go much wrong, I think information is possibily be transfered somewhare in between following happening:-

'When light enters a material, photons are absorbed by the atoms in that material, increasing the energy of the atom. The atom will then lose energy after some tiny fraction of time, emitting a photon in the process. This photon, which is identical to the first, travels at the speed of light until it is absorbed by another atom and the process repeats. The delay between the time that the atom absorbs the photon and the excited atom releases as photon causes it to appear that light is slowing down.'

""As light travels through matter, though, it "bumps into" the atoms (technically, the photons keep getting absorbed and re-emitted), and so the light _appears_ to travel slower. We measure this phenomenon with a number called the index of refraction, usually represented by the variable 'n'. N is defined to be the speed of light in a vacuum divided by the slower speed in matter, and it depends both on the type of matter in question (different atoms/substances absorb and emit light in different ways) and the wavelength of light in question (different wavelengths of light get absorbed and emitted at different speeds, even in the same substance).
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae509.cfm""

I think this absorption & remission of photons leaves some effect on atoms/molecules of carriers which makes light slow or less heated.

Can it not? We do feel when sun-light comes to us via clouds or any other medium.:)

http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/refracti.gif

refraction 1: a light ray, b reflected ray, c refracted ray

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
I don't know the details, but the green comes from copper oxide, no copper, so I assume some of the copper is actually burning. I'm an electronic engineer, not a chemical engineer.

There must be something wrong with that, I think. Copper oxide is not a covalent molecule, so the electron energy level changes must be occurring within unassociated copper atoms not in actual CuO "molecules", but where you may be correct is that those atoms are probably actually ions, presumably Cu2+. So....I guess the connection to CuO is that CuO is green because of energy transitions in Cu++ in solid CuO, and a copper contaminated flame is green because of Cu2+ in the flame (presumably electrically balanced by 02- floating around as well). So....if you deposited the flame vapours onto a solid surface the Cu2 and O2- would associate to give you a deposit of solid, green CuO.

23 years since my last chemistry lession and counting.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Kumar

You say you have learned something. How can KE "stored" in entropy then help a homeopathic remedy work? If the remedy has more entropy does that mean you have stored more energy in it, which lets the remedy do its work on the body at a later stage?

Your chance to explain something.

An additional prompt:- is entropy another reservoir of energy that can be drawn on?


If I take a remedy and increase its entropy, is that a good thing?

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Kumar
Hello all,

Please try to see which couldn't be looked as yet NOT which we have already looked. Otherwise, we will have to carried forward it to future research ot to our next generations.

It looks this concept is more related to Photochemistry & Photobiology.:)

Phiction and Phantasy, more like.

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Kumar

Can it not? We do feel when sun-light comes to us via clouds or any other medium.:)

You have again just googled for something that shows that light affects matter. Nobody denies that. You do not have to bring more evidence for this.

Next time address the questions. Try for instance to explain why only homoeopathic light influences water. Or how you believe that such complex information as contained in a remedy can be stored in water molecules.

[Zep]

Kumar is not a "real person", folks, just a troll or a nutter. To continue to respond to him is just playing his game. We all know how he works:

K: How do you explain [fantasical proposition X]?

Us: You don't; it's nonsense because [rational explanation].

K: Then can we (we!?) explain why [fantasical proposition X] can make homeopathy work like this? [quote Googled nutcase homeo websites]

Us: That's all bollocks because [rational explanation again]. The sites are wrong, there's nothing there remotely supporting homeopathy.

K: Then can we explain why [fantasical proposition X] can make homeopathy work like this? [quote some OTHER Googled nutcase homeo websites]

Us: Kumar, get a brain and use it. Or go away.

K: So how do you explain [fantasical proposition Y]?

Us: *SIGH* You don't; it's nonsense because [rational explanation].

...and so on round the loop again and again.

To get off the merry-go-round, DON'T RESPOND!

[Pragmatist]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
There must be something wrong with that, I think. Copper oxide is not a covalent molecule, so the electron energy level changes must be occurring within unassociated copper atoms not in actual CuO "molecules", but where you may be correct is that those atoms are probably actually ions, presumably Cu2+. So....I guess the connection to CuO is that CuO is green because of energy transitions in Cu++ in solid CuO, and a copper contaminated flame is green because of Cu2+ in the flame (presumably electrically balanced by 02- floating around as well). So....if you deposited the flame vapours onto a solid surface the Cu2 and O2- would associate to give you a deposit of solid, green CuO.

23 years since my last chemistry lession and counting.

Err...CuO is black, not green! :)

But you're basically correct otherwise. It's ions of copper that cause the characteristic green colour in a flame. The ions come initially from the thin layer of CuO that covers the bare metal, the CuO disassociates, later ions come directly from the metal surface.

To clarify, what happens under heating depends on the temperature (and hence the applied energy). Normal heating in a biological range, or radiant heat that does not include higher energy visible photons will only cause molecular level changes. For example, initially whole molecules will translate and rotate, absorbing and radiating photons of heat radiation. As the energy level increases the molecules will start to vibrate as well, and this contributes higher energy photons. The electron orbitals between the atoms of the molecule (the molecular orbitals) will change level with rotation, vibration etc., and there will be some low energy electron transitions. But it requires intense heat (and a lot more energy) to cause actual transitions of electrons in the lower atomic orbitals - which are the ones required to emit photons in the visible range.

The green line in copper is an atomic orbital transition, but it only happens at high energies. So unless Kumar intends to heat his "remedies" to 700+ degrees C it's not exactly relevant (surprise, surprise! :)).

[Benguin]

What is normal oxidised copper? CuO or CuO2?

[geni]

Originally posted by Benguin
What is normal oxidised copper? CuO or CuO2?

CuO you can get CuO₂ but it's not very easy to get.

[Kumar]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Kumar

You say you have learned something. How can KE "stored" in entropy then help a homeopathic remedy work? If the remedy has more entropy does that mean you have stored more energy in it, which lets the remedy do its work on the body at a later stage?

Your chance to explain something.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
An additional prompt:- is entropy another reservoir of energy that can be drawn on?


If I take a remedy and increase its entropy, is that a good thing? No. now I think just opposite.


I think, in consideration of above discussions, anyone can now bring some logical & presentable concept that how homeopathy can work --provided he think positively, deeply & practically. Things for basic seed seems to have been grounded. Pls think, relate & try to present here. All of you are much capable.

Anyway to continue till then, let me ask you:-

In quantum science, what can be the meaning & science of degradation/degenaration or deterioration?(DEGRADATION, DETERIORATION, DEGENERATION, DECADENCE, DECLINE mean the falling from a higher to a lower level in quality, character, or vitality.) More specific word will be "Photodegradation". If photons passes through atoms or molecules, can those experiance degradation/degenaration or deterioration?

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Zep

To get off the merry-go-round, DON'T RESPOND!
I plead guilty! But for a while I had some fun. Now he bores me.

[Benguin]

Originally posted by geni
CuO you can get CuO₂ but it's not very easy to get.

Oh right, I was just confused because copper goes green when exposed to air.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Pragmatist
Err...CuO is black, not green! :)

So why is weathered copper green? What salt is that?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
No. now I think just opposite.

Please clarify. Do you now think increasing entropy is a bad thing to do to a homeopathic remedy?

If so, please explain why it is a bad thing.

[Kumar]

BSM,

I am bit happy today. Good News is indicated there. (http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?p=51951#post51951) It appears that something concrete has already been indicated here, as a results of discussions & contributions of so many here & I am thankful to you all. You may now present some presentable theory here as CAN if you want, obiously.

Now it is your turn to show your capability & dynamizism.

Thanks & good wishes.;)

[Kumar]

BSM,

Entropy - (communication theory) a numerical measure of the uncertainty of an outcome; "the signal contained thousands of bits of information"
selective information, information
communication theory, communications - the discipline that studies the principles of transmiting information and the methods by which it is delivered (as print or radio or television etc.); "communications is his major field of study"
information measure - a system of measurement of information based on the probabilities of the information-bearing events

2. entropy - (thermodynamics) a thermodynamic quantity representing the amount of energy in a system that is no longer available for doing mechanical work; "entropy increases as matter and energy in the universe degrade to an ultimate state of inert uniformity"
randomness, S

Probably, we just cook, cool, degrade, degenerate or dilute the remedy substances to make it effective or more effective.:)

[Donks]

From your link
I just indicate that we just degrade/degenerate the remedy substances alike we cook food properly--to make it effective or more effective. Do you understand what degrade means? Here, I'll save you the google search. lower the grade of something; reduce its worth Reduce the information content of. Could you present examples, with evidence, of things that become more effective as they degrade.

[Zombified]

Cap'n Cut-n-paste strikes again. Kumar, perhaps you'd like to explain in your own words what you think entropy is and what consequences it has for your little hobby.

If you say anything like "Sometimes entropy is just for fun" I will be disappointed, but not terribly surprised.

[flume]

Kumar, I am glad that you are happy! Even if I don't agree with you most of the time, I wish for the best for you.

I don't understand about the good news though. The link you posted just tells people to go back here to read this topic. I haven't seen anything here which gives scientific support for homeopathy though, so I'm not sure what was the good news.

(Cool that you consider skeptics to be "alike tigers". Most of the time people consider me to be "alike slug" so this is a pleasant change.)

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
I am bit happy today. Good News is indicated there. (http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?p=51951#post51951) It appears that something concrete has already been indicated here, as a results of discussions & contributions of so many here & I am thankful to you all.
Once again, Kumar's basic strategy: when in doubt, declare victory and start over.

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Zombified
Once again, Kumar's basic strategy: when in doubt, declare victory and start over.

Kumar's understanding of logic and science has degraded to the point where he thinks we acknowledge his daft theories of how homeopathy works.

[Kumar]

Photodegradation
Photodegradation is the chemical transformation of a compound into smaller compounds caused by the absorption of ultraviolet, visible, or infrared radiation (light). In many cases photodegradation is an oxidation process. Many compounds, when exposed to sunlight, degrade to smaller compounds. Some drinking-water and wastewater treatment facilities use ultraviolet light to destroy pollutants (through oxidation).

References
International Union of Pure And Applied Chemistry (IUPAC), 1996, Glossary of terms used in photochemistry (IUPAC Recommendations 1996): Pure and Applied Chemistry, v. 68, no.12, p. 2223-2286.

[geni]

Originally posted by Kumar
Photodegradation
Photodegradation is the chemical transformation of a compound into smaller compounds caused by the absorption of ultraviolet, visible, or infrared radiation (light). In many cases photodegradation is an oxidation process. Many compounds, when exposed to sunlight, degrade to smaller compounds. Some drinking-water and wastewater treatment facilities use ultraviolet light to destroy pollutants (through oxidation).

References
International Union of Pure And Applied Chemistry (IUPAC), 1996, Glossary of terms used in photochemistry (IUPAC Recommendations 1996): Pure and Applied Chemistry, v. 68, no.12, p. 2223-2286.

Yeah but it doesn't work with water

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Kumar
Photodegradation
Cut the crap, Kumar. Talk about these things, don't just copy them off the Internet. None of what you've copied offers any indication of how any of these things would allow homeopathy to function. You need to explain the relevance of these phenomena to your little hobby - right now you are failing utterly to make any sort of point.

[Kumar]

This will help you to recall your old studies.

Glossary of Terms Used in Photochemistry (http://www.iupac.org/reports/1996/6812verhoeven/P.htm) ;)

[Kumar]

Originally posted by geni
Yeah but it doesn't work with water

It may work with any atoms or molecules. Anyway, Initially, substancial active molecular substances are added in remedy's substances for carrying potentisation process.

Read again & THINK! THINK! THINK! It is very easy to follow. I may indicate but may never clear, which you will have to do it yourself.

[Correa Neto]

Originally posted by Kumar
It may work with any atoms or molecules. Anyway, Initially, substancial active molecular substances are added in remedy's substances for carrying potentisation process.

Read again & THINK! THINK! THINK! It is very easy to follow. I may indicate but may never clear, which you will have to do it yourself.

I make these words of your mine->"Read again what´s being explained here & THINK! THINK! THINK! It is very easy to follow. "

You don´t seem to be following your own adivice when it comes to what people explain here. You are the one with prejudices and preconceived ideas, not willing to change a single angstrom from your position.

You think you are a genius, don´t you?

Sheer waste of bandwidth.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Donks
From your link
Do you understand what degrade means? Here, I'll save you the google search. Could you present examples, with evidence, of things that become more effective as they degrade. Mat be most--mountains to soils, gem stones, metals...we can't eat mountain, non-degraded substances in gross. Cooking is also one king of degradation. We make, eat, digest, absorb, secrete, reabsorb--all may be somewhat degradation. ELDERS ARE MORE EFFECTIVE & INTELIGENT, MOSTLY, JUST THINK.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Cut and pasted!!

In your own words please. What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Zep et al,

Please don't regard my recent posts as engagement with the substance of Kumar's ideas. It's more like testing the operational parameters of the Turing machine Kumarbottm. Observe it as a metadiscussion.

[geni]

Originally posted by Kumar
It may work with any atoms or molecules. Anyway, Initially, substancial active molecular substances are added in remedy's substances for carrying potentisation process.

Read again & THINK! THINK! THINK! It is very easy to follow. I may indicate but may never clear, which you will have to do it yourself.

Kumar I'm a chemistry student remeber? I know quite a bit about this subject. I could expain why it wont work with water but first you would need to demonstraight that you understand MO theory.

Remember this picture Kumar?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Mat be most--mountains to soils, gem stones, metals...we can't eat mountain, non-degraded substances in gross. Cooking is also one king of degradation. We make, eat, digest, absorb, secrete, reabsorb--all may be somewhat degradation. ELDERS ARE MORE EFFECTIVE & INTELIGENT, MOSTLY, JUST THINK.

No, sorry my mistake. He really does think he's cracked the problem now and is patronising us. His misplaced smug certainty irretrievably degrades ( ;) ) even the observational entertainment value. It's not fun any more.

At least the f**kwits of Otherhealth might have their consciences tickled by Kumar's link. You never know.

[Pragmatist]

Originally posted by geni
CuO you can get CuO₂ but it's not very easy to get.

Yes, CuO (cuprous oxide) is the more common, the other oxide is actually Cu₂O (cupric oxide), not CuO₂.

Cuprous Oxide is black and Cupric Oxide is red.

[Pragmatist]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
So why is weathered copper green? What salt is that?

Probably mostly Copper Carbonate (reacting with CO₂ from the air). But it can be a mixture of different salts, like hydroxide, chloride and even organic salts like acetates - it's typically a whole load of things that are formed by various air pollutants on copper.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by geni
Kumar I'm a chemistry student remeber? I know quite a bit about this subject. I could expain why it wont work with water but first you would need to demonstraight that you understand MO theory.

Remember this picture Kumar?

Can't it be possible on water, alcohol or lactose esp. when water become opaqe in initial stages of potentisation?

'When light enters a material, photons are absorbed by the atoms in that material, increasing the energy of the atom. The atom will then lose energy after some tiny fraction of time, emitting a photon in the process. This photon, which is identical to the first, travels at the speed of light until it is absorbed by another atom and the process repeats. The delay between the time that the atom absorbs the photon and the excited atom releases as photon causes it to appear that light is slowing down.'

Btw, do water, alcohol or lactose have any special properties to get this effect?

Hello all,

Are you thinking or not? I just want to see you as positive thinker or believer?

BSM,

Just compare entropy with above italic one? See how molecules, atoms or electrons in final remedy's substance can be exited after taking these in mouth or on skin or touching?

[Zep]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Zep et al,

Please don't regard my recent posts as engagement with the substance of Kumar's ideas. It's more like testing the operational parameters of the Turing machine Kumarbottm. Observe it as a metadiscussion. Yep. Data range testing. Previous runs of the same bot indicate it is like a Mandelbrot point calculation - most of the time the calculation will zoom off into "outer space" after only a few iterations (the attractor is infinity?). Definitely unstable.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Kumar
Can't it be possible on water, alcohol or lactose esp. when water become opaqe in initial stages of potentisation?

'When light enters a material, photons are absorbed by the atoms in that material, increasing the energy of the atom. The atom will then lose energy after some tiny fraction of time, emitting a photon in the process. This photon, which is identical to the first, travels at the speed of light until it is absorbed by another atom and the process repeats. The delay between the time that the atom absorbs the photon and the excited atom releases as photon causes it to appear that light is slowing down.'

Btw, do water, alcohol or lactose have any special properties to get this effect?Water and alcohol, no. Lactose is not a liquid.

We await your next inane question with ennui.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zep
Water and alcohol, no. Lactose is not a liquid.

We await your next inane question with ennui.

Why no? Do the photons not heat or exite molecules/atoms/electrons of water,alcohol?

[Zombified]

Certainly they do. As they do with every other material. Water, alcohol and lactose are not special in this way. Of course, this heating or scattering or any other photon-atom interaction does not communicate any information of therapeutic value. Even if it could, there is no mechanism to prevent interfering patterns from being potentized, nor is there any mechanism to maintain the information long-term instead of being wiped out by thermal collisions.

But you will certainly ignore this.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Kumar

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
In your own words please. What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Kumar
Why no? Do the photons not heat or exite molecules/atoms/electrons of water,alcohol?

Kumar, this is incredibly simple to sort out in respect of homeop-nonsense.

Take two vials, put water, alcohol in both. Go through the potentisation process.

Come up with any way to tell the difference between the two at the end of it.

When you do there is a phenomenon to be explained.

Until you've done that concentrate on answering MonkeyMan's entropy question.

Why do all Kumar's threads follow the same pattern exactly?

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Zombified
Certainly they do. As they do with every other material. Water, alcohol and lactose are not special in this way. Of course, this heating or scattering or any other photon-atom interaction does not communicate any information of therapeutic value. Even if it could, there is no mechanism to prevent interfering patterns from being potentized, nor is there any mechanism to maintain the information long-term instead of being wiped out by thermal collisions.

But you will certainly ignore this.

Good! On any Photon-atom/molecule/electron interaction origional photon is absorbed & a new photon is created. I may call it as a seconadary.... photon. It slows down photon movement/rays, refract..etc. What you can tell about this absorption & remission of photons by same atom.....Does it not leave effect on atom...? Does it then, not differanciate atom before remission & after remission. I think, it is degradation-mostly.

[Kumar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Benguin
Kumar, this is incredibly simple to sort out in respect of homeop-nonsense.

Take two vials, put water, alcohol in both. Go through the potentisation process.

Come up with any way to tell the difference between the two at the end of it.


You can see provided you have eyes which can look photons avtivities & interactions with atoms/molecules & electrons.


When you do there is a phenomenon to be explained.

phenomennon already& mostly indicated.

Until you've done that concentrate on answering MonkeyMan's entropy question.

I know, he want to tell something, still I want to continue with you & others, some more & want from you to indicate accordingly.

Why do all Kumar's threads follow the same pattern exactly?
Somewhat 'absoluteness' or God's Grace. ;)

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Kumar
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Benguin
Kumar, this is incredibly simple to sort out in respect of homeop-nonsense.

Take two vials, put water, alcohol in both. Go through the potentisation process.

Come up with any way to tell the difference between the two at the end of it.


You can see provided you have eyes which can look photons avtivities & interactions with atoms/molecules & electrons.



Even then we contend you could not. These things can be measured.

[Kumar]

Originally posted by Benguin
Even then we contend you could not. These things can be measured.

Good! Then Pls reply:-

On any Photon-atom/molecule/electron interaction origional photon is absorbed & a new photon is remmited. I may call remitted photon as a seconadary.... photon. It slows down photon movement/rays, refract..etc. What you can tell about this absorption & remission of photons by same atom.....Does it not leave effect on atom...? Does it then, not differanciate atom before remission & after remission. I think, it is degradation-mostly.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Kumar

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
In your own words please. What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?

In chess the repetition of a position ends the game. In chess, this is called stalemate, but in this instance we took all of Kumar's pieces long ago and are left shuffling our own on the board to make pretty patterns.

[Kumar]

BSM,

What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?

In My words: Grounded state of electrons..after interaction with photons/heat/MF...or excitation. Good for homeopathy as a reversible change in heat/photons produces a change in the measure.

Look at this:-

"the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity b : a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder"

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Kumar
Good for homeopathy as a reversible change in heat/photons produces a change in the measure.

How is entropy reversed in general? Where in the preparation of homeopathic remedies is entropy reversed?

[Benguin]

Originally posted by Kumar
Good! Then Pls reply:-

On any Photon-atom/molecule/electron interaction origional photon is absorbed & a new photon is remmited. I may call remitted photon as a seconadary.... photon. It slows down photon movement/rays, refract..etc. What you can tell about this absorption & remission of photons by same atom.....Does it not leave effect on atom...? Does it then, not differanciate atom before remission & after remission. I think, it is degradation-mostly.

Read what I said again. It just doesn't matter either way.

Now stop avoiding answering the nice Marteshka's entropy question.