Truth about Denmark?

[FalsePerception]

I noticed there is a person from denmark on this forum.

I`ve been curious about denmark for a while so I have a few questions if thats alright.

I`ve heard some crazy stories about denmark for example: child pornography is legal???

Like to get the facts straight whatever I hear about denmark from the american media is negatively skewed.

Next as I understand it denmark is a 100% socialist state.

meaning if I`m a lazy a person and I don`t want to work I would be given a government subisidy? (hard to believe this would be true)

BTW this is not critizing I`m just wondering.

next and I don`t think this one is true: drugs are legalized?

all in all sounds like a pretty good place to LIVE!! ;)

considering I`m lazy bastard, how can I get citizenship:D ?

Seriously though from what I`ve read your system sounds like it works well??? (contary to what I`ve heard elsewhere)

but I imange there must be problems with it. The reason I think your system works is because denmark is a small country.

Implament the same program in the united states and it would be a disaster! I think same heavy tax rate would destoy business in america, and the other problem would be government waste
5 million people is one thing 250 million to manage is another.

I am curious though how anyone can stand a 75% tax rate?!?!!!!!!

[shemp]

Whenever I need to know about a country, I always go to the folks who know everything and would never lead you wrong, the good old CIA!

CIA Factbook: Denmark (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/da.html)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by FalsePerception
I noticed there is a person from denmark on this forum.

There are actually a few of us. Heck, I'm not even living there, but....still...I'll have a go at it!

Originally posted by FalsePerception
I`ve heard some crazy stories about denmark for example: child pornography is legal???

No. Pornography is legal. Child pornography is most definitely not.

Originally posted by FalsePerception
Like to get the facts straight whatever I hear about denmark from the american media is negatively skewed.

Sometimes, negatively. I do find that the American media usually can't even get American facts right, so.... ;)

Originally posted by FalsePerception
Next as I understand it denmark is a 100% socialist state.

No. In the past century, roughly half the time the country has been governed by the Social Democrats, which is a far cry from socialism. Once in a while, we have a rightist (by Danish standards - I'd have a hard time explaining the differences from left to right to an American - your Liberals/Democrats are close to the Danish Conservatives, so...) government. We do right now.

Originally posted by FalsePerception
meaning if I`m a lazy a person and I don`t want to work I would be given a government subisidy? (hard to believe this would be true)

You can choose not to work, and you will get a subsidy, yes. It ain't much, though...it's a life, but not a very fun life.

Originally posted by FalsePerception
BTW this is not critizing I`m just wondering.

Wonder away!

Originally posted by FalsePerception
next and I don`t think this one is true: drugs are legalized?

No. However, you can obtain the odd pot from Christiania, a partly self-governing post-hippie communal society. Go easy, though.

Originally posted by FalsePerception
all in all sounds like a pretty good place to LIVE!! ;)

It sure is! Just be prepared to pay a lot more in taxes than in the US! :)

Originally posted by FalsePerception
considering I`m lazy bastard, how can I get citizenship:D ?

You can't just move there - you have to have some kind of close family relationship, preferably a spouse with Danish citizenship.

Originally posted by FalsePerception
Seriously though from what I`ve read your system sounds like it works well??? (contary to what I`ve heard elsewhere)

It works - for us. Denmark is very well organized, with relatively low crime and a high standard of living. Free education (actually, you get paid to go to college), free health care, state pension for all when you retire.

Originally posted by FalsePerception
but I imange there must be problems with it. The reason I think your system works is because denmark is a small country.

Not necessarily. Sweden works pretty much the same way, and they are almost twice as big. I think it has more to do with what people want with their society.

Originally posted by FalsePerception
Implament the same program in the united states and it would be a disaster! I think same heavy tax rate would destoy business in america, and the other problem would be government waste 5 million people is one thing 250 million to manage is another.

I don't see why: Once you get up there in those numbers, it is merely a question of scaling.

Originally posted by FalsePerception
I am curious though how anyone can stand a 75% tax rate?!?!!!!!!

I see you have been reading what I posted recently on TVTalkshows. The tax rate itself is about 50% (but going down), and there's a 25% Value Added Tax on everything. Yes, it's expensive, but also very, very good...

[Bjorn]

I love Denmark! Danish people must be the most easy-going and (at the same time) civilized I ever met, even included my fellow Norwegians. I'm sure one of them will explain the difference between UK hooligans and Danish rooligans. Taxwise:

I see you have been reading what I posted recently on TVTalkshows. The tax rate itself is about 50% (but going down), and there's a 25% Value Added Tax on everything. Yes, it's expensive, but also very, very good... 50% taxes plus 25% VAT when you spend the other 50%, add up to 62.5, not 75%, of your income.

And that, of course, is a lot better ..... :p

[Starshark]

Sounds like Denmark is fairly similar to Australia.


Still can't understand why 'tax' is such a dirty word to so many Americans. Christ, there's more to life than money!

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Bjorn
50% taxes plus 25% VAT when you spend the other 50%, add up to 62.5, not 75%, of your income.

According to Danish math, it is! :D

(oops..!)

[FalsePerception]

Interesting thanks for the info on denmark

Would the danish socialist system work in the U.S.?

I truly would like to see such as system implemented, to the see the end of poverty, homelessness in amercia, as a well a truly good educational system, and fairness for all. However this why I don’t believe you could apply that system to the U.S.

Denmark has a small population 5 million people, United States has much larger population 250 million.

Government inefficiency and corruption increase in proportion to size.

On a small scale a socialist/social welfare system could work but in a large nation much of the tax money would be lost to corruption and inefficiency IMO.

The US government wastes something like 25 cents to every dollar we pay in taxes. This is this exactly the reason I have problems with paying taxes to the US government. (I`m curious how much Danish tax money is lost in waste per dollar)

Now imangine how much the US government would waste if it recieved twice as much in tax revenue. :eek:

I would however agree a socialist/welfare system could work in america provided the government bureaucracy was COMPLTELY restructured. (more likely it would take a total government restructuring a whole new system)

Though an argument I’ve heard against socialism and high taxes is that companies will lose the incentive to innovate if taxes are too high. Technology will advance slower due to lack of incentive. This is the argument I hear sometimes against raising taxes in America. Can’t really test it’s validly but on face value it seems to be a valid argument.

I doubt though there could ever be a true socialist system in America. But it is interesting to consider if such a system would work in a country as large as America. To the best of my knowledge it hasn’t been tried in a large country unless you consider communism a true socialist system (Many confuse communism with socialism)

ADD: I believe india is socialist also that might make a very good case as to why socialism would not work in america.

[Ove]

Well as a resident in Denmark I'll have a stab

Would the danish socialist system work in the U.S.?

Yes, if you replaced most of the population.



On a small scale a socialist/social welfare system could work but in a large nation much of the tax money would be lost to corruption and inefficiency IMO.

Not nescessarily. I don't think it has anything to do with population size more general attitude.

The US government wastes something like 25 cents to every dollar we pay in taxes. This is this exactly the reason I have problems with paying taxes to the US government. (I`m curious how much Danish tax money is lost in waste per dollar)

Probably something like the same. I don't think our system is more efficient.

Now imangine how much the US government would waste if it recieved twice as much in tax revenue

Twice as much!!!!;) I would however agree a socialist/welfare system could work in america provided the government bureaucracy was COMPLTELY restructured. (more likely it would take a total government restructuring a whole new system)

I think you are right. :D
Though an argument I’ve heard against socialism and high taxes is that companies will lose the incentive to innovate if taxes are too high. Technology will advance slower due to lack of incentive. This is the argument I hear sometimes against raising taxes in America. Can’t really test it’s validly but on face value it seems to be a valid argument.

Yes i hear that too(from our industry), trouble is that most Danish compagnies seems to be doing quite fine, mind you we does not try to make cheap merchandize, like they do in the far east. We simply can't compete with people who get's a bowl of rice a day for salary.

I think some of your industrial problems comes from the fact that you are trying to do just that. The compagny i work for (Bang & Olufsen) is a fine example of what we can do namely High tech, high end products and then we let Sony make a million DVD players/month. I know it was good old Ford who said "I dont earn much pr.car but i make a lot of cars" but in order for that principle to work you got to have the lowest wages and i don't for a moment think an American worker would like to work for far-east wages.
I doubt though there could ever be a true socialist system in America. But it is interesting to consider if such a system would work in a country as large as America. To the best of my knowledge it hasn’t been tried in a large country unless you consider communism a true socialist system (Many confuse communism with socialism)

I think you do so too. I don't like you calling our right wing lead country for a "socialist state". You know our standing joke about America is that you have two major parties: The Conservative and the REALLY Conservative. Our political parties may seem leftist to you but living close to the (former) real socialist states DDR and Russia i can assure you that there is absolutely nothing "socialist" about our goverment. Democracy? yes definitely and probably more democratic than USA, socialist? no.

ADD: I believe india is socialist also that might make a very good case as to why socialism would not work in america.

While India in theory may be a socialist state i do believe they have a heavy load of religion that prevents democracy. The whole "Caste system" is IMHO a serious block to any true democracy.

[iain]

It probably seems obvious to say it, but I don't see any reason why a solution that works well in one country should work well in another, or really why we would want it to.

Countries can be very different in size, culture, history, geography, expectations of the people, natural resources etc. I have no problem with the idea that a solution which works well in the US doesn't work elsewhere and vice versa.

I also think it is better for the world for there to be a variety of different systems. That way if some huge event happens which causes one system to collapse (e.g. big depression), others might perform better.

This is one reason I have a hard time understanding the US posters who think that exporting the way the US does things to European countries will automatically make them better places. It has also given me a better appreciation (from the comments on these boards) of why ways the US does things, which seem odd to me as a European, might work well in the US.

[Aardvark_DK]

One has to realise that Danes have a degree of trust in their government that you don't find in many other countries (except maybe Sweden and Norway). A friend of mine is currently residing in Italy, and he believes that a system similar to the Danish would be impossible to implement there because the Italians have very little faith in their government.

As for the Danish tax rate: It may seem very high but wages in Denmark are comparably higher too (minimum wage is approx. $12 an hour); and considering that both hospital care and education is free, I think we get a lot in return for the tax we pay.

[tamiO]

wages in Denmark are comparably higher too (minimum wage is approx. $12 an hour); and considering that both hospital care and education is free, I think we get a lot in return for the tax we pay.

Will you marry me ? :D

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Ove
Probably something like the same. I don't think our system is more efficient.

Oh, yes, baby. You have no idea how much more efficient the Danish public sector is, compared to the (relatively) puny public sector in the US.

Everytime I have to go to a public office in the US, I have to bring all sorts of papers: Passport, greencard, paper with extention for greencard, driver's license, pay stub (lønseddel), receipt for e.g. electricity (because it has my address on it!). I have to fill out forms again and again, with the same information: Name, address, education, etc. I even have to state what religion I have, as well as what 'ethnic' group I consider myself belonging to.

They don't know for sure where people live. Who they are. What they do. What they make. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Nothing. They don't merge their databases, they don't correspond between agencies.

They may be 'free' from the Danish Central Personal Number, but they pay a hefty price for their 'freedom'. I have never stood so much in line as I have in the US. Not only in supermarkets and malls, but in every government office.

Gee....I could compare the US to the old Soviet Union.... ;)

Whatever is 'government' is regarded with deep mistrust in the US. People are almost ashamed to admit they work in the public sector. Changing the system is one minor thing, compared to changing the apathic nature of Americans: They complain, but they don't do anything to change it.

[FalsePerception]

I think you do so too. I don't like you calling our right wing lead country for a "socialist state". You know our standing joke about America is that you have two major parties: The Conservative and the REALLY Conservative. Our political parties may seem leftist to you but living close to the (former) real socialist states DDR and Russia i can assure you that there is absolutely nothing "socialist" about our goverment. Democracy? yes definitely and probably more democratic than USA, socialist? no.

I apologize if you took that the wrong way.

my understanding is that socialism is a type of system where the government takes care of it's citizens in everyway: health, education, housing, retirement, food, everything.

While communism is not socialist. communism is a dictatorship under the pretense of socialism.

but I’ll check the dictionary to be sure

:eek: SORRY my understanding is way OFF!!!!!
Denmark is not socialist :(

Darn it I sometimes forget to take the crap coming out of the idiot box with a skeptical eye.

Whenever I hear denmark mentioned it's called socialist.
BLASTED lying, agenda driven media :mad:

A great example of why it is important to have a clear understanding of what a word means. I think that is what it means is not good enough.

My apologies to all danes


Everytime I have to go to a public office in the US, I have to bring all sorts of papers: Passport, greencard, paper with extention for greencard, driver's license, pay stub (lønseddel), receipt for e.g. electricity (because it has my address on it!). I have to fill out forms again and again, with the same information: Name, address, education, etc. I even have to state what religion I have, as well as what 'ethnic' group I consider myself belonging to. They don't know for sure where people live. Who they are. What they do. What they make. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Nothing. They don't merge their databases, they don't correspond between agencies.

They may be 'free' from the Danish Central Personal Number, but they pay a hefty price for their 'freedom'. I have never stood so much in line as I have in the US. Not only in supermarkets and malls, but in every government office.

Gee....I could compare the US to the old Soviet Union....



Yeah that sounds like the american bureaucracy: Awful! I`ll never forget the horrendous lines the last time I visted the DMV. For the most part the american government is grossly ineffiecent. The merging of data bases sounds like a great idea!!!!! but the words american bureaucracy and innovation do not mix. america could see that system someday but by then Denmark would probally a newer and better system.

As for lines at supermarkets that is the fault of private industry. They should open up more lanes or build another market if lines are too long.

Whatever is 'government' is regarded with deep mistrust in the US. People are almost ashamed to admit they work in the public sector. Changing the system is one minor thing, compared to changing the apathic nature of Americans: They complain, but they don't do anything to change it.

To clarify americans are not ASHAMED to admit they work in the public sector the only EXECPTIONS are the people who work at the IRS and the DMV.

it is true though that amercians have a mistrust of government, the reasons are many too many to list I`ll just name vietnam as an example of the why.

As to the apathetic of nature of americans. While it's true many americans are apathetic that is a generalization. I`m not a not an apathetic person if I want something done I take action and thats the same with many I know, however in general you are correct.

Well after all this discussion of Denmark I have my mind made up.
I’ll be sure to visit Denmark when I go to europe someday, I want to see this system for myself (along with other reasons) I hope the danish are friendly towards americans. (I`m always reminded of the french when I think of europe :D )

[DanishDynamite]

I see other Danes have already answered, but I'd just like to give my own opinion to a few of the questions.
Next as I understand it denmark is a 100% socialist state. Almost, but not quite. The state "only" takes about 70-80 % of our money (through income tax, VAT, duties, tariffs, etc.). We are allowed to keep the remainder as pocket money.
meaning if I`m a lazy a person and I don`t want to work I would be given a government subisidy? (hard to believe this would be true) You certainly would. Although Claus says the amount isn't much, it is certainly large enough that many people would actually see a decrease in their income if they got a job.
all in all sounds like a pretty good place to LIVE!! ;) Indeed it is.
but I imange there must be problems with it. From a local viewpoint, there are many problems. Compared to problems of many other countries, there are few. As the saying goes: "Everything is relative". From my perspective one of the main problems is the inflexibility of the labor market.
I am curious though how anyone can stand a 75% tax rate?!?!!!!!! Oddly enough, many Danes don't mind, as long as they feel they are getting something back. Personally I would like to see a substantial decrease.

(Awaiting Claus's (and other Danes) response with bated breath).

[mbp]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Oddly enough, many Danes don't mind, as long as they feel they are getting something back. Personally I would like to see a substantial decrease.

(Awaiting Claus's (and other Danes) response with bated breath).
You'll get no argument from me. I agree with everything you said :)
We do get something in return for our tax money, but the current level of taxation is ridiculous.

[Smalso]

Way back in the 60s I was part of a joint NATO exercise with units of the Danish army. We enjoyed the hospitality of the Danish soldiers and civilians for a week. While in Copenhagen on Saturday night, I made the acquaintance of a man and his wife. They invited me into their home, fed me and we had a few beers and talked quite a while, after which they furnished me with transportation back to our camp. On Sunday morning, they picked me up and escorted me around Copenhagen to see some of the sights--Hamlet's Castle and some other great stuff. I have very fond and warm memories of those wonderful people and my short trip to Denmark.

[arcticpenguin]

And what discussion of Danmark would be complete without mention of the incredibly high quality of baked goods?

[DanishDynamite]

mbp:You'll get no argument from me. I agree with everything you said :)
We do get something in return for our tax money, but the current level of taxation is ridiculous.:) Rart at se jeg ikke er alene.

SmalsoWay back in the 60s I was part of a joint NATO exercise with units of the Danish army. We enjoyed the hospitality of the Danish soldiers and civilians for a week. While in Copenhagen on Saturday night, I made the acquaintance of a man and his wife. They invited me into their home, fed me and we had a few beers and talked quite a while, after which they furnished me with transportation back to our camp. On Sunday morning, they picked me up and escorted me around Copenhagen to see some of the sights--Hamlet's Castle and some other great stuff. I have very fond and warm memories of those wonderful people and my short trip to Denmark. Thank you for the kind words. Likewise, the vast majority of Americans I have met have been out-going and sympathetic. I'm afraid it's been over 15 years since I was in the States, but I enjoyed it very much.

BTW, your user name has always made me smile. In Danish, it translates as "slim sow"! :D

[mbp]

http://www.dengamlebagergaard.dk/typo3temp/3fa41b1c0d.jpg

[Smalso]

DD, that's information I can always use. Actually, it's the result of a typo that I didn't correct. I was named for my father (Sam) and for years I was known as Sam, too--or Sam II...get it? When I decided to use Samalso as my user name, I left out the "a" and didn't bother to fix it. After reading the Danish translation of it though, I might make up another story about it. :D Thanx.

[Doctor X]

Forgive if I mix up some details, but one thing I like about Denmark was their actions in WWII.

Like many other small European countries armed with the most advanced spears, they lasted roughly 47.8 minutes against the Germans. The difference was their behavior. I believe King Christian use to ride his horse every day in Coopenhagen. When the Nazis started to force the Jews to wear Jewish stars, the royal family started wearing Jewish stars. Apparently, everyone started wearing the stars which effectively ruined the first part of the Nazi plans.

I am not sure of the exact figures--since it has been years since I read up on it--but a rather staggeringly large number of Jews were saved by Danes. While my ancestors and others were more than happy to point out their fellow citizens to the Nazis--and pretend that snow storms of ashes were "nothing unusual"--the Danes risked their lives to save their Jewish population.

Furthermore, while overrun, the Danes were hardly beaten. Their resistance drove the Nazi's crazy. The Nazis expected conquest of Denmark to be a "given." It was not.

Some day I hope to visit.

--J.D.

[CFLarsen]

Doctor X,

You are right and wrong. Very wrong.

Yes, we didn't last long - a couple of hours - when we were invaded by Germany.

Yes, Christian X rode his horse (almost) everyday through Copenhagen.

No, the royal family did not wear the Star of David.

No, everyone did not start to wear the Star of David.

About 90% of all Danish Jews managed, with the help of the underground movement, to escape to Sweden. Also, a lot of communists, socialists, policemen, etc. got away.

No, we were beaten. The Danish government collaborated up until 1943 with the Germans, when the Germans abolished government and dissolved the police. It was a 'given' that Denmark would not put up a strong military resistance.

Yes, towards the end of the war, the restistance grew and did manage to hurt the Germans pretty well. Most, however, did nothing.

But it is a nice country.... :)

[ceo_esq]

In my experience, the Danes are outstanding folks and they have a workable system going.

Unlike some of the posters here, though, I don't think the Danish model could be transferred to the United States under the current circumstances.

It's been recently discussed in another thread, but one of the primary reasons that a number of European countries (and Denmark is one example) have consistently been able to devote such a high proportion of tax revenue to social welfare expenditures is generous - and expensive - security guarantees from the United States over the past few decades. It does tend to free up a lot of money for the Europeans, but this arrangement would quickly break down if the country with the deepest pockets also elected to become a welfare state.

[Mike B.]

Correct me if I am wrong...
But I remember hearing that the "real" Hamlet in Denmark was not the Shakespearan character but was a Viking, and lived long before the supposed time in the play.

(Sorry reading about the Hamlet castle above made me wonder.)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Correct me if I am wrong...
But I remember hearing that the "real" Hamlet in Denmark was not the Shakespearan character but was a Viking, and lived long before the supposed time in the play.

(Sorry reading about the Hamlet castle above made me wonder.)

Prince Amled. Read Saxo Grammaticus (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/).

[FalsePerception]

Now my last question or observation I should say

There seems to be many danes on this forum

So danes must be pretty skeptical right thinking people if such a large percentage are this forum :) No psuedoscience in denmark??? :cool:

Seriously I wonder why so many danes are this forum? Can somebody give me an explanation?

[mbp]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Prince Amled. Read Saxo Grammaticus (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/).
In this translation he's called "Amleth". The story is on this page (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/book3.html), about 3/4 of the way down.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by FalsePerception
Now my last question or observation I should say

There seems to be many danes on this forum

So danes must be pretty skeptical right thinking people if such a large percentage are this forum :) No psuedoscience in denmark??? :cool:

Seriously I wonder why so many danes are this forum? Can somebody give me an explanation?

Because, like Australia, both countries are interested in equality, education and are interested in the rest of the world.

[mbp]

Originally posted by FalsePerception

So danes must be pretty skeptical right thinking people if such a large percentage are this forum :) No psuedoscience in denmark??? :cool:

I wish!
Unfortunately we do have our share of nonsense and plenty of people willing to believe in it.


Seriously I wonder why so many danes are this forum? Can somebody give me an explanation?
I have wondered about that myself.
Maybe the combination of having a very small country and a very widespread knowledge of English makes it more natural for Danes to look abroad for a forum like this, whereas people from a larger country like Italy or Germany are more likely to go for something in their own language?
But on the other hand the number of Danes here is probably small enough for it to just be a coincidence.

[Ladewig]

Maybe the combination of having a very small country and a very widespread knowledge of English makes it more natural for Danes to look abroad for a forum like this, whereas people from a larger country like Italy or Germany are more likely to go for something in their own language?


That might also explain the Dutch presence here.
doeeeeeeeeeei.

[iain]

Originally posted by Ladewig


That might also explain the Dutch presence here.
doeeeeeeeeeei. Misschien, maar ik ben Engels. Ik woon nu in Nederland maar ik ga terug naar Engeland in een paar maanden.

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by iain
Misschien, maar ik ben Engels. Ik woon nu in Nederland maar ik ga terug naar Engeland in een paar maanden.
Have anyone noticed how many vowels Dutch people waste? Seems they can't get through more than a couple of words before they have to fit in a double-a or double-o. It's sad really.

Originally posted by tamiO
Will you marry me ? :D
Another bloody marriage offer! This is getting ridiculous.

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
You certainly would. Although Claus says the amount [welfare] isn't much, it is certainly large enough that many people would actually see a decrease in their income if they got a job.
This is just plain wrong. With a low-income full-time job you'd have about 8000 kroner a month (after tax). On welfare you only get about 5000 per month (although you might be entitled to some kind of extra-support if you have a high rent on your flat).

Originally posted by mbp
We do get something in return for our tax money, but the current level of taxation is ridiculous.
You have to take into account that wages are higher too. What you have to look at is the net sum, and I don't think we're worse of than other countries.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK

Have anyone noticed how many vowels Dutch people waste? Seems they can't get through more than a couple of words before they have to fit in a double-a or double-o. It's sad really.

Personally, I am worried about this level of vowel emissions. It can't be good for the environment.

I think I read somewhere that it is contributing to global warming, the hole in the ozone layer, increasing teenage pregnancies or something.

[Drooper]

No, I've just realised. This is the famed Dutch initiative to RESTORE the ozone layer. :)

[mbp]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK

This is just plain wrong. With a low-income full-time job you'd have about 8000 kroner a month (after tax). On welfare you only get about 5000 per month (although you might be entitled to some kind of extra-support if you have a high rent on your flat).

That's probably about right for a single person with no children. But if you then subtract the costs that go with having a job (transportation, unemployment insurance, mandatory union membership in many low-income jobs) you could well end up only having 1000 kr. more pr. month in exchange for giving up forty hours a week. Not everyone will see this as a good deal.

But if you consider a family of four where both parents are on welfare, the situation is much worse. Because they have children their welfare is much higher, but if one of them gets a job they stand to lose most of it. In such a low-income job will be of no use whatsoever.


You have to take into account that wages are higher too. What you have to look at is the net sum, and I don't think we're worse of than other countries.
Our wages aren't that much higher if at all. I know that I personally could earn more and pay less in taxes by moving abroad and I know people who have done so.
You don't even have to go to one of the "traditional" low-tax countries. My father is working in Norway at the moment, paying noticeably less in taxes than he would here. And the wages up there are comparable to those in Denmark.

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by mbp
But if you then subtract the costs that go with having a job (transportation, unemployment insurance, mandatory union membership in many low-income jobs) you could well end up only having 1000 kr. more pr. month in exchange for giving up forty hours a week.
I think that's a stretch. I'm not saying it can't be true, but I've never known anyone who had to put up 2000-3000 on transportation, unemployment insurance and mandatory union membership (do you know anyone in a low-income job for whom union membership is mandatory?).

Originally posted by mbp
But if you consider a family of four where both parents are on welfare, the situation is much worse. Because they have children their welfare is much higher, but if one of them gets a job they stand to lose most of it. In such a low-income job will be of no use whatsoever.
Quite likely and very unfortunate. I'm not sure what the solution would be.

Originally posted by mbp
You don't even have to go to one of the "traditional" low-tax countries. My father is working in Norway at the moment, paying noticeably less in taxes than he would here. And the wages up there are comparable to those in Denmark.
Working abroad is a bad example because entirely different taxation rules come into play. And Norway is definitely a bad example because of their oil (same as Alaska, though not as extreme).

But if you want to make a lot of money, then this is not the ideal place to live, absolutely. Denmark is very much about security - you can be sure that no matter what happens you'll be taken care of. (Except if your teeth are troubling you. For some obscure reason dental care is not free. Very annoying.)

[Smalso]

So what is the kr-$(US) rate?

One of the things that came out in my conversations with my Danish hosts was a resentment towards the US following World War II. The Danish people felt that they had suffered at the hands of the Germans as much as anyone else and had done as much as anyone else in helping to defeat the Germans, but that they were more or less ignored by the Marshall Plan when it came to helping rebuild. This from those who could remember the war and who suffered through the occupation.

[Aardvark_DK]

one dollar = 6.9 kroner.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Drooper
No, I've just realised. This is the famed Dutch initiative to RESTORE the ozone layer. :)

Can they not start an initiative to get rid of Albert Hein and Appelflappen?

Despite the monicker I live in Holland at the minute.

Oh and Oliebolen as well.........

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland


Can they not start an initiative to get rid of Albert Hein and Appelflappen?

Despite the monicker I live in Holland at the minute.

Oh and Oliebolen as well.........

You'll have to educate me on this one.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Drooper


You'll have to educate me on this one.

Albert Hein is the worst supermarket in the civilised world.

And appelflappen and oliebollen are two particularly disgusting Dutch "cakes/pastries", which are not only inedible, but sound stupid.

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland
And appelflappen and oliebollen are two particularly disgusting Dutch "cakes/pastries", which are not only inedible, but sound stupid.
The latter being a particularly horrible offense.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK

The latter being a particularly horrible offense.

They most definite;y are not lekker!!!!!!!!!:D

[mbp]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK

I think that's a stretch. I'm not saying it can't be true, but I've never known anyone who had to put up 2000-3000 on transportation, unemployment insurance and mandatory union membership (do you know anyone in a low-income job for whom union membership is mandatory?).

Maybe not quite 2-3000, but enough to make the net advantage gained by having a full-time job quite small.
I'll have to admit that I don't know exactly what jobs have the mandatory union membership requirement, but they are generally at the lower end of the scale. People working in kindergartens for example.
A union membership costs close to 1000 kr. a month (although that is tax deductible). Transportation could easily be 4-500 even if you are lucky enough to in a place with a good public transport system. If a car is needed you're looking at something like 1500 a month in addition to the cost of the car itself and any repairs.



Working abroad is a bad example because entirely different taxation rules come into play.

It's the only possible example. It was you who claimed that Danish wages were high enough to offset the higher taxes when compared to the rest of the world. How can I refute that without looking abroad?
Comparing Danish wages and taxes only to themselves isn't very interesting.

But I take it that you don't think the Danish taxes are too high.
What then. Are they just right? Or should they be even higher.
Could they ever become too high? Or would even 80% or 90% be all right as long as we feel safe and well taken care of?

[iain]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland


Albert Hein is the worst supermarket in the civilised world.

And appelflappen and oliebollen are two particularly disgusting Dutch "cakes/pastries", which are not only inedible, but sound stupid. A bit unfair about Albert Hein - no supermarket that does internet shopping can be that bad. Both vla and vlaai are very nice on the food front, though I've never managed the courage to try raw herrings.

Anyone wanting to moan about Holland should meet my wife, who's list of complaints is getting pretty long and is based around small shops that don't sell what she wants, too many smokers and not enough no-smoking areas.

[Ove]

Maybe the combination of having a very small country and a very widespread knowledge of English makes it more natural for Danes to look abroad for a forum like this, whereas people from a larger country like Italy or Germany are more likely to go for something in their own language?

I tend to agree 100%, also i can add that most Danes like to practice their English which would explain why Americans and English are recieved quite friendly over here.

There are exceptions though. The very large American in the loose shirt and Bermuda shorts, speaking like JR and with 5-6 cameras around his neck out to "do Europe in 5 days (by the way what country are we in now Maa? Stockholm???") will most certainly recieve a somewhat chilled reception but otherwise do visit our country.

You'll get no argument from me. I agree with everything you said
We do get something in return for our tax money, but the current level of taxation is ridiculous.

This is another thing about the Danes, we LOVE to whine about th high taxes. The fun thing is that if you dig closer into it the same Danes will (reluctantly) admit that they are actually doing quite fine. I have debated work relationships whith americans before and i really think that i am doing very well.

I work 37 hrs/week as does my wife. I am a test engineer and she is second in charge in a kindergarten. Our wages are average (ca 200 000 DKkr /year each) I own my own house (well some of it) i have a car (Suzuki Liana) 4 TV's two Pc's DVD-VCR-CableTV etc and still i can afford a bottle of good wine every sunday and a nice vacation once a year. We're going to France again this year, i've promished the kid's to go to EuroDisney.

They may be 'free' from the Danish Central Personal Number, but they pay a hefty price for their 'freedom'. I have never stood so much in line as I have in the US. Not only in supermarkets and malls, but in every government office.

OK OK, Claus, i had no idea it was that bad. (Har de virkeligt ikke et personnummer?? :confused: )

[mbp]

Originally posted by Smalso
So what is the kr-$(US) rate?
One of the things that came out in my conversations with my Danish hosts was a resentment towards the US following World War II. The Danish people felt that they had suffered at the hands of the Germans as much as anyone else and had done as much as anyone else in helping to defeat the Germans, but that they were more or less ignored by the Marshall Plan when it came to helping rebuild. This from those who could remember the war and who suffered through the occupation.
This is the first time I've ever heard about this. If such feelings were ever common they certainly haven't been for the last 15-20 years.
(They also weren't warranted. We didn't suffer as much as anyone else and we didn't do as much as anyone else in helping to defeat the Germans.)

But there is perhaps some lingering resentment against Germany. Not only because of the occupation, but also because they never paid for all the stuff they "bought" from us during the war.

[LW]

Originally posted by Ove
The very large American in the loose shirt and Bermuda shorts, speaking like JR and with 5-6 cameras around his neck out to "do Europe in 5 days (by the way what country are we in now Maa? Stockholm???")
To tell the truth, that behavior is not limited to Americans. Once an Australian tourist asked me if had served in the army, and if I had, had I liked my stay in the Russian army...

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by mbp
Transportation could easily be 4-500 even if you are lucky enough to in a place with a good public transport system. If a car is needed you're looking at something like 1500 a month in addition to the cost of the car itself and any repairs.
Sounds about right. But you said that you would get more money from not working, and that was what I took issue with.

It's the only possible example. It was you who claimed that Danish wages were high enough to offset the higher taxes when compared to the rest of the world. How can I refute that without looking abroad? Comparing Danish wages and taxes only to themselves isn't very interesting.
Sorry, maybe I phrased it badly. What I meant was that you can't compare a Danish citizen working in, say, the UK and a British citizen working in the UK.

But I take it that you don't think the Danish taxes are too high. What then. Are they just right? Or should they be even higher. Could they ever become too high? Or would even 80% or 90% be all right as long as we feel safe and well taken care of?
I think they're probably right considering what we get in return (free education, etc.). If they were to go up I'd certainly expect to get more in return (free dental care, for example). Mind you, I think it's about right as it is.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by iain
A bit unfair about Albert Hein - no supermarket that does internet shopping can be that bad. Both vla and vlaai are very nice on the food front, though I've never managed the courage to try raw herrings.

Anyone wanting to moan about Holland should meet my wife, who's list of complaints is getting pretty long and is based around small shops that don't sell what she wants, too many smokers and not enough no-smoking areas.

What on earth (cough) is she moaning (cough) about (cough) smoking for. Hardly (cough) anyone smokes (cough) here. Gall & Gall dont even sell smokes fer crissake!!!

Furthemore, there is also the small matter of the Euroshopper brand......:D. although Euroshopper lager is surprisingly good.........

[mbp]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK

Sounds about right. But you said that you would get more money from not working, and that was what I took issue with.


You misunderstood me. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - or you might be thinking of Danish Dynamite's original post on this subject.

I didn't mean to say that you get more money when you're not working - although that is sometimes the case - but that the difference between welfare and a minimum wage job is minimal.
And small enough to make it understandable why some people don't bother.

[Earthborn]

They most definite;y are not lekker!!!!!!!!!If you buy them at a Oliebollenkraam or in the supermarket, you are right: they can be quite gruesome. If you want to enjoy them you'll have to bake them yourself which is ridiculously complicated and even then is the result often disappointing.Albert Hein is the worst supermarket in the civilised world.Never been to the Aldi, have you? :D

Imagine this: narrow aisles, cluttered with empty boxes. Erratic supply: something they have for years can suddenly disappear. Stuff you need is seldom there. Personnel apperently selected on rudeness. Many stores don't have barcode scanners so cashiers need to type in endless rows of codes (which are not on the product but they must learn to remember!), which is asking for errors. Even in large stores only a few cash registers. Even when it is extremely crowded only a few of them (literally one or two) are open! Nazist regime: if you think you can get away with it by not using a shopping cart because you have only a few things, forget it. They make you feel like you commited a heinous crime. So to avoid this humiliation you just take a shopping cart and try to make your way through the narrow aisles, avoiding the heavy shopping cart traffic and empty boxes. (Worse: 90% of the shopping carts have at least one wheel that doesn't roll at all making steering damn near impossible!) Cashiers seem to think they have the right to check any bags you have, so make sure you don't take any personal with you. (This description contains very little exxageration!)

There are only two reasons why this chain isn't competed to death yet: they are CHEEAAP! And their own brands frequently get high quality ratings in consumer tests.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Earthborn
If you buy them at a Oliebollenkraam or in the supermarket, you are right: they can be quite gruesome. If you want to enjoy them you'll have to bake them yourself which is ridiculously complicated and even then is the result often disappointing.Never been to the Aldi, have you? :D

Imagine this: narrow aisles, cluttered with empty boxes. Erratic supply: something they have for years can suddenly disappear. Stuff you need is seldom there. Personnel apperently selected on rudeness. Many stores don't have barcode scanners so cashiers need to type in endless rows of codes (which are not on the product but they must learn to remember!), which is asking for errors. Even in large stores only a few cash registers. Even when it is extremely crowded only a few of them (literally one or two) are open! Nazist regime: if you think you can get away with it by not using a shopping cart because you have only a few things, forget it. They make you feel like you commited a heinous crime. So to avoid this humiliation you just take a shopping cart and try to make your way through the narrow aisles, avoiding the heavy shopping cart traffic and empty boxes. (Worse: 90% of the shopping carts have at least one wheel that doesn't roll at all making steering damn near impossible!) Cashiers seem to think they have the right to check any bags you have, so make sure you don't take any personal with you. (This description contains very little exxageration!)

There are only two reasons why this chain isn't competed to death yet: they are CHEEAAP! And their own brands frequently get high quality ratings in consumer tests.

Ah yes, but is that worse than being flattened by gangs of teenage shelf stackers pushing huge trolleys of food around, yet the shelves always seem to be empty? :D

And dont get me started on why there's never any flipping rolls left!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Skeptic]

In his book "Good Days and MAD", MAD writer Dick Debartolio recalls a visit to an Amsterdam "red light district". It sold sex tapes of various kinds, as the sign said Iin broken english:

STRAIGHT SEX
GAY SEX
LESBIAN SEX
PAIN SEX
PEEING SEX
ANIMAL SEX
CHILD SEX
OTHER SEX

Cocker read the list a couple of times, and then said to Debartolio: "Gee, I wonder what 'Other Sex' is!"

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by mbp
I didn't mean to say that you get more money when you're not working - although that is sometimes the case - but that the difference between welfare and a minimum wage job is minimal. And small enough to make it understandable why some people don't bother.
Alright.

The reason why people do bother, though, is because being unemployed is only fun for a couple of months. And getting just an extra 1000 a month means a lot when you have that little money. Trust me, I know.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Because, like Australia, both countries are interested in equality, education and are interested in the rest of the world.

Only you would say something like this...I suppose because there are fewer Norweigans per capita on this board than Danes, they must not be as interested in education, or the rest of the world...

[Neophyte]

OK, so I don't have anything of substance to contribute.

But, if you are in the San Fran bay area, you should really check out this place (http://www.copenhagenbakery.com/) . Danish pastries are truly some of humanity's finer creations.:D

[DanishDynamite]

Oh, the irony!

Quite often, on a worldwide scale, Denmark is confused with the Netherlands. And what do we see on this thread titled "Truth about Denmark"? An overflow of posts regarding food, shopping, sex, etc. of....(drumroll)....the Netherlands! Aaaaargh! :mad: :D

Anyway, just a few comments:

ceo_esq:In my experience, the Danes are outstanding folks and they have a workable system going. :)
It's been recently discussed in another thread, but one of the primary reasons that a number of European countries (and Denmark is one example) have consistently been able to devote such a high proportion of tax revenue to social welfare expenditures is generous - and expensive - security guarantees from the United States over the past few decades. It does tend to free up a lot of money for the Europeans, but this arrangement would quickly break down if the country with the deepest pockets also elected to become a welfare state. While I think there may be some truth to this, I'd just like to note two points:

1. US military spending is about 3-4% of GDP. Most European countries spend about 1-2%. Hence, most countries would only need to move 1 - 1.5% of GDP spending from welfare to military spending. Considering that Denmark, for example, spends well over 25% of GDP on social expenditures, such a move wouldn't threaten the welfare system.

2. While the US may....(what's the word so often used on these boards for "expressing a differing opinion", oh yes, I remember)...whine about the low military spending in Europe, I'm not sure what the US opinion really is regarding having the EU create a military presence matching that of the US.

Ove:This is another thing about the Danes, we LOVE to whine about the high taxes. :) Hey, it's the national pasttime. Or at least, the runner-up. The primary pasttime is of course: How do I minimize the amount of taxes I need to pay?

[Doctor X]

CFLarsen:

Well, I am sure no one likes to be wrong, but I am really saddened to find out I am wrong about the details in this. Of course, it came from strenous historical research . . . I read a book of historical fiction called Bright Candles when I were a wee lad.

I am sorry it was more "fiction" than "historical."

While we must all, eventually, mourn the passing of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and a funny Saturday Night Live cast, I rather mourn this "urban legend" since it seemed a rather bright spot in a very sad time. It takes a lot for people to stand up for those they consider "different." Far too many Europeans were happy to see the Jews "go." Of course, the US did not exactly fall over itself condemning what was happening either.

Alas.

Anyways, not to hijack the thread, but how did the 90% of the Jewish Danes escape?

--J.D.

[mbp]

Originally posted by Doctor X

I am sorry it was more "fiction" than "historical."
...
Anyways, not to hijack the thread, but how did the 90% of the Jewish Danes escape?

An account of both the urban legend and the real history can be found at Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/denmark.htm).
I'll quote the final paragraph:

Although this legend may not be true in its specifics, it was certainly true enough in spirit. The rescue of several thousand Danish Jews was accomplished through the efforts of "thousands of policemen, government officials, physicians, and persons of all walks of life." The efforts to save Danish Jews may not have had the flair of the "yellow star" legend, and they may not have required quite so many citizens to visibly oppose an occupying army, but those who were rescued undoubtedly preferred substance to style.

[Nitpick]

Originally posted by Doctor X

Anyways, not to hijack the thread, but how did the 90% of the Jewish Danes escape?

--J.D.


From The Danish Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies (http://www.holocaust-education.dk/holocaust/danmarkogholocaust.asp) :
Quote:

The Danish Jews were lucky. The large majority of them survived World War II, unlike the 6 million Jews that lost their life around Europe during the Nazi terror regime.

7,500 Jews from Denmark reached safety in Sweden in October 1943, when the Nazis decided that the turn had come to the Danish Jews.
Only around one hundred Danish Jews perished.

And here's another link (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.jsp?ModuleId=10005209)

And yet another one (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/denmark.html)

(yes, Google ;) )

[Brooklyn Dodger]

I would like to return to the "child porn" issue. It's said now that there isn't any, or at least that it is illegal. I think that the reason that there is a perception that there is child porn permitted might be a difference in legal age for photography of nude models and models for sexual acts.

In the US, the legal age is 18. I understand that the age permitted in Denmark is 16. That, if true, leads to a problem on the internet. Perfectly legal photographs in Denmark would be illegal if taken or downloaded in the US.

Is this true? If it is was true but is no longer true, when was it changed?

[mbp]

Originally posted by Ove

This is another thing about the Danes, we LOVE to whine about the high taxes.

There is some truth in that. We don't hold too many world records so it's a useful topic if you want to "impress" foreigners :)
But believe me. I would LOVE not to have any high taxes to complain about.


I work 37 hrs/week as does my wife. I am a test engineer and she is second in charge in a kindergarten. Our wages are average (ca 200 000 DKkr /year each) I own my own house (well some of it) i have a car (Suzuki Liana) 4 TV's two Pc's DVD-VCR-CableTV etc
Nice.
I live alone. I earn well above the average. I don't own a house. My car is an old wreck. Neither of those things are going to change in the foreseeable future. (Well, the old wreck might fall apart I suppose.)
When I was studying I thought that people who earn as much as I do now were very well off. Now I know better.
Oh, well. At least I have something to complain about, which is what I really want :)


A "fun" thing about our efficient government. Using only the information given in your profile I was able to find your address and the official public valuation of your house! It took less than a minute. In a way that's really neat, but I also find it a bit unsettling.
I wonder how much information a person with my CPR number and access to the right government computer system might be able to obtain. It must be a lot.
I don't think we should abolish those systems, but having a bit of chaos isn't always just a bad thing. It can also be seen as a way of protecting privacy.

[mbp]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Dodger

In the US, the legal age is 18. I understand that the age permitted in Denmark is 16. That, if true, leads to a problem on the internet. Perfectly legal photographs in Denmark would be illegal if taken or downloaded in the US.

Is this true? If it is was true but is no longer true, when was it changed?
No, it's not true.
The legal age in Denmark is 15.
But it's illegal to produce, sell or possess pornography involving people under 18.
You can legally buy pornography when you're 16. But you're not allowed to be in it.

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Originally posted by mbp

No, it's not true.
The legal age in Denmark is 15.
But it's illegal to produce, sell or possess pornography involving people under 18.
You can legally buy pornography when you're 16. But you're not allowed to be in it.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by mbp
You can legally buy pornography when you're 16. But you're not allowed to be in it.
You have to be 16 to buy porn? I'm pretty sure there's no age limit. Pretty sure verging on certain.

[mbp]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK

You have to be 16 to buy porn? I'm pretty sure there's no age limit. Pretty sure verging on certain.
In a way you are right, but in a more real way I'm right :)
The exact text from the law is:

§ 234. Den, som sælger utugtige billeder eller genstande til en person under 16 år, straffes med bøde.

Roughly translated: "He who sells obscene/immoral pictures or object to a person under 16 years of age, is punished with a fine".
So in a way you could say that it's legal to buy porn when you're under 16 - it just isn't legal for anyone to sell it to you.

[mbp]

Originally posted by kittynh
I really think Denmark sounds great. And a lot of people would agree that not letting in the rabble to share in this lifestyle is one way of protecting it.
But, the US does something it rarely gets credit for. We let in a lot of immigrants.
Is that true? How many pr. year? How are they chosen?
I couldn't just go to the US if I wanted to (except for a short visit). I'd need a work permit or something similar. And even if I got that - which isn't a trivial thing - there's no guarantee that I'd be allowed to stay indefinitely.
Would it really be easier for me to emmigrate to the US than it would for you to emmigrate here? I'm not so sure.


Edited to add:

There is a lot of flack about how many people we let in and then for goodness sake let them become full citizens ( a lot of the EU will let people in, but out they go once they are not needed to fill jobs).
I don't know about the rest of the EU, but in Denmark you can usually become a citizen if you've lived here (legally) for seven years. I seem to remember that five years are required in the US. (right?)
Not that different, is it?

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CFLarsen
[B]

>>Yes, it's expensive, but also very, very good... <<


Funny how so many Danes seem to prefer to live elsewhere than their native socialist paradise. Nothing wrong with allegience to your mother country, but word has it, that there is indeed something rotten in the State of Denmark in that...

"Four percent of the population is now costing 34 percent of the Danish social budget, and elderly Danes who paid a lifetime of the highest taxes in the world are being squeezed out of the medical and other benefits they expected. There is something rotten in Denmark. America should make sure that we don't make the same mistakes, either at home or in "nation-building" in other lands."


http://www.mugu.com/pipermail/upstream-list/2001-February/001289.html

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by mbp
Roughly translated: "He who sells obscene/immoral pictures or object to a person under 16 years of age, is punished with a fine".
So in a way you could say that it's legal to buy porn when you're under 16 - it just isn't legal for anyone to sell it to you.
Wow! I'd no idea. I certainly never had a problem buying porn mags when I were younger than 16. And the owner of the video store where I used to work never told me that I wasn't allowed to sell porn movies to minors (not that I recall any minors trying to buy'em).

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Rouser2
"Four percent of the population is now costing 34 percent of the Danish social budget, and elderly Danes who paid a lifetime of the highest taxes in the world are being squeezed out of the medical and other benefits they expected."
Ok, two points I'd like to make:

a) Bollocks.

b) Well, I don't need a b) 'cause the a) was so great.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Prince Amled. Read Saxo Grammaticus (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/).

Thanks for the link Claus...I suppose the story made its way to Britain from Viking invasions and Shakespeare and others were well familiar with it. I guess he thought he would update it for his audience.

[CFLarsen]

Rouser2!!! Where you been, buddy?? Sick with something that could have been cured by a simple vaccine...?? :D

Originally posted by Rouser2
Funny how so many Danes seem to prefer to live elsewhere than their native socialist paradise. Nothing wrong with allegience to your mother country, but word has it, that there is indeed something rotten in the State of Denmark in that...

Wrong again. Denmark is neither 'socialist', nor is it losing Danes in a major way. I could ask you to back up your claims with evidence, but I know that you are allergic to evidence.

There is only one 'vaccine' against that, and that is skepticism. Try it - you might like it.

Originally posted by Rouser2
"Four percent of the population is now costing 34 percent of the Danish social budget, and elderly Danes who paid a lifetime of the highest taxes in the world are being squeezed out of the medical and other benefits they expected. There is something rotten in Denmark. America should make sure that we don't make the same mistakes, either at home or in "nation-building" in other lands."

http://www.mugu.com/pipermail/upstream-list/2001-February/001289.html

Phyllis Schlafly? You got to be kiddin' me, Rouser2....have you been taking too many vaccines lately??

[Earthborn]

2. While the US may....(what's the word so often used on these boards for "expressing a differing opinion", oh yes, I remember)...whine about the low military spending in Europe, I'm not sure what the US opinion really is regarding having the EU create a military presence matching that of the US.Looking at the reluctance to accept the european navigation system Galileo...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/020514-gps.htm
http://www.marinecomputer.com/articles/ONnewsletters/onnl010.html
I'd say they would be pretty worried when Europe would build an army to match the US's. And remember: Europe is a lot more populous than the US. If we would use as much taxes per taxpayer on the military as the US, we could seriously kick their butts! :)

"Not complying with the Kyoto protocol? Bombs away!"Quite often, on a worldwide scale, Denmark is confused with the Netherlands. And what do we see on this thread titled "Truth about Denmark"? An overflow of posts regarding food, shopping, sex, etc. of....(drumroll)....the Netherlands! Aaaaargh! What? Denmark isn't the capital of the Netherlands? Learning something new everyday... :D
Four percent of the population is now costing 34 percent of the Danish social budgetSince a social security system is a safety net meant for those who can't get enough money on their own, by definition a minority of the population uses a majority of the budget. That's how it works!
Nobody complains that only sick or injured people get money from a health care insurance, do they? :D

[FalsePerception]

I'd say they would be pretty worried when Europe would build an army to match the US's. And remember: Europe is a lot more populous than the US. If we would use as much taxes per taxpayer on the military as the US, we could seriously kick their butts!

HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA HAHA :D

Oh yes the united states would have much to fear from a full sized
european army. :rolleyes:

OH NO HERE COMES THE ITALIANS , AND WORSE YET THE ELITE FRENCH ARMY!!!!!!! :eek:

ROFL

OH no not the GERMANS again, didn`t they learn their lesson the last time WE kicked their ass.

OH denmark has an army I didn`t know that, how cute :) OH yes we can`t forget the might of the polish, and the infamous spanish armada :rolleyes: England what about England??? England is America's BITCH!

Rest of Europe? more of the same.

(No worries russia is not part of europe!!!!)



Result of the American European "war" : Europeans learn yet another lesson in humility! (note first it was never really a war because it took the united states about 1 week to WIN)

terms of european full and unconditional (as well as humiliating )surrender :

1. France will chance it's name to America Land!!!!!!

2. All europeans will be required to recite the plege of alligence hourly!!!!

3. Europeans will be allowed only one party: the Amercia is great party

4. It will be manditory for all europeans to speak english and only english.

5. Upon meeting a american: A european must bow on one knee and Say: I salute my better!!!!!!!

6. Europeans must demilitarize WAIT who cares it's not like the europeans were a threat when they had a military :D

7. All europeans must always place an American flag above their own.

8. Europe must pay restitution for being jerks all these years

9. Europe must formally acknowlege the Superiority of the United States.

10. The American European "war" will formally be called the Second European enlightenment :p



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO NO NO americans are not arrogant it when it comes to their military! :D

(that was fun hope no one takes it personally.... Even though obviously everything said is true!!!!) :)

[CFLarsen]

FalsePerception,

I have to admit that I will have to recant my previous criticism of the American educational standard.

I have never seen a diaper-carrying toddler being able to hit the keys with such accuracy!!

[Ladewig]

STRAIGHT SEX
GAY SEX
LESBIAN SEX
PAIN SEX
PEEING SEX
ANIMAL SEX
CHILD SEX
OTHER SEX

Cocker read the list a couple of times, and then said to Debartolio: "Gee, I wonder what 'Other Sex' is!"

I'm told that many pornography stores have serarate sections for pregnant sex, goth sex, amputee sex, transexual sex, inter-racial sex, vintage pornography, amature pornography, obese sex, celebrity sex, Spam sex (okay, I made that one up), tickle sex, costume sex (mmmmm Wonder Woman), or even fur suit sex (dressing up in plush animal costumes for sex (now that is one kinky fetish)).

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy" ... and if we are very lucky, we won't see photos of all those things.



As for those Dutch pastries, just ignore them. Remember we are talking about a country that combined miniskirts and bicycles he, he-he, he-he.

[Ove]

Ok, two points I'd like to make:

a) Bollocks.

b) Well, I don't need a b) 'cause the a) was so great.


Couldn't have said it better myself.


Never been to the Aldi, have you?

I have and i agree with you 100% ;)

I'm told that many pornography stores have serarate sections for pregnant sex, goth sex, amputee sex, transexual sex, inter-racial sex, vintage pornography, amature pornography, obese sex, celebrity sex, Spam sex (okay, I made that one up), tickle sex, costume sex (mmmmm Wonder Woman), or even fur suit sex (dressing up in plush animal costumes for sex (now that is one kinky fetish)).


How about Leather/latex/rubber, or infantilism now THAT's kinky.;)

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CFLarsen
[


>>Wrong again. Denmark is neither 'socialist', nor is it losing Danes in a major way. I could ask you to back up your claims with evidence, but I know that you are allergic to evidence.<<


Not socialist? Do you call 75% confiscation of one's productivity "Freedom"??? In the middle ages, when the serfs had to forfeit 30% of their crop, that was considered slavery. Denmark has free health care, free education, free free-loading, free pensions, free welfare but not much real freedom. Perhaps that has something to do with your own defection? What happens to someone who does not want to voluntarily participate in the confiscation of 75% of his productivity?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Not socialist? Do you call 75% confiscation of one's productivity "Freedom"??? In the middle ages, when the serfs had to forfeit 30% of their crop, that was considered slavery. Denmark has free health care, free education, free free-loading, free pensions, free welfare but not much real freedom. Perhaps that has something to do with your own defection? What happens to someone who does not want to voluntarily participate in the confiscation of 75% of his productivity?

It isn't 'confiscation'. It's taxes. Decided by politicians. Elected by people.

Had you an inkling of knowledge about Denmark, you would not say such rubbish.

And, even if it is none of your damn business, taxes had nothing to do with my moving to the US.

"Voluntarily"? It's the law, baby. What happens to you if you do not want to voluntarily obey the law?

Man, I missed you, Rouser2. You are such fun.

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Rouser2
In the middle ages, when the serfs had to forfeit 30% of their crop, that was considered slavery.
It was? By whom?

It may have been considered unjust, but where does the slavery part come in? Do you understand what "slavery" means?

[Skeptic]

I'm told...

I believe you.

[Diezel]

A thread about Denmark! With Claus and DD and mbp in it! Why wasn't I invited? ;)

(that's all I really wanted to say - I'm sure some of you were wondering if I would show up :D)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Diezel
A thread about Denmark! With Claus and DD and mbp in it! Why wasn't I invited? ;)

Why do you think, ChromeDome? :)

Originally posted by Diezel
(that's all I really wanted to say - I'm sure some of you were wondering if I would show up :D)

No, not really. Cynical, perhaps. Hey...you are not a Cynical clone??? :D

[Diezel]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Why do you think, ChromeDome? :)

Because you couldn't keep yourself form going into a passionate soliloquy about your undying love for me?

No, not really. Cynical, perhaps. Hey...you are not a Cynical clone??? :D

I wish I could take credit for her being my sock puppet. That would go down as one of the greatest jokes on both this and the TVTalkshow boards. :D

Sadly, I am not talented enough to be that shallow, boring and ignorant.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Diezel
Because you couldn't keep yourself form going into a passionate soliloquy about your undying love for me?

In your dreams, ShinyTop.

Originally posted by Diezel
Sadly, I am not talented enough to be that shallow, boring and ignorant.

Count your blessings. ;)

[GreyWanderer]

Denmark is a wonderful country. Too bad it's SO hard to understand what they are saying. Even if you know the language. I'm Norwegian, and the languages are really similar. It's just that they don't know how to speak clearly.

I was there on a biking vacation last year. And sometimes people just gave us up. We just didn't undestand a word they were saying.

It's a great thing how many roads there are for bikes there. I thought it was quite funny that biking road number one actually wen through someone's back yard.

350 km in 3,5 days with a knee that hurt like hell the last two days. That's what I call a biking trip! (:

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Diezel
A thread about Denmark! With Claus and DD and mbp in it! Why wasn't I invited? ;)
Is this one of those "inside jokes"?

[Diezel]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK

Is this one of those "inside jokes"?

Yes. Sorry.
[old man mode]
Back in the early days of this board, when I used to have to type on a wooden keyboard, myself and the Danes of the Tundra had many epic battles on the social polices of our repective governments. Nowadays, I'm too old and brittle to fight dem fights, so I just mock Claus like he should be mocked[/old man mode]

[Aardvark_DK]

What do you mean "old"? I'm typing this on a Commodore VIC 20.

[Diezel]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
What do you mean "old"? I'm typing this on a Commodore VIC 20.

Well, if you lived in a decent country that promoted inovation and ingenuity, you could have a better computer. :p

(that was just a joke, I'm jealous - I'm typing on an Atari PET with a cassette drive)

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
What do you mean "old"? I'm typing this on a Commodore VIC 20.


:D :D :D :D :D

Are you playing pong as well?:p

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Are you playing pong as well?:p
WHAT?!?!?! Has Pong been released for the VIC 20? No way?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Diezel


Yes. Sorry.
[old man mode]
Back in the early days of this board, when I used to have to type on a wooden keyboard, myself and the Danes of the Tundra had many epic battles on the social polices of our repective governments. Nowadays, I'm too old and brittle to fight dem fights, so I just mock Claus like he should be mocked[/old man mode]

Put'em up! Put'em up! Put'em up! Put'em up!....ah, you wimp!!

[Diezel]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Put'em up! Put'em up! Put'em up! Put'em up!....ah, you wimp!!

Come on now, your old a*s could barely type that, let alone lift your arms up high enough to put up your dukes. :D

[DanishDynamite]

Diezel:A thread about Denmark! With Claus and DD and mbp in it! Why wasn't I invited? ;) Diezel, you know you are always welcome. You are also welcome not to participate. I promise, whatever your choice, even crawling back to the Banter section to play King of the Hill, we still love you. :D ;)

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CFLarsen
[B]

>>It isn't 'confiscation'. It's taxes. Decided by politicians. Elected by people. <<

Just like the Institution of Slavery in pre-civil war US. Perfectly legal; and instituted by politicains elected by the "people".

>>Had you an inkling of knowledge about Denmark, you would not say such rubbish.<<

So far you only challenge semantics. Socialist health care? Socialist education? Socialist pensions? Socialist welfare? Sociialized productivity? But not socialist? If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc....

>>And, even if it is none of your damn business, taxes had nothing to do with my moving to the US.<<

Nah. Probably prefer a climate of multi-culturalisim, eh?


>>"Voluntarily"? It's the law, baby. What happens to you if you do not want to voluntarily obey the law?<<

All depends. I wonder how many tax resisters there are in Denmark? And how many are in jail and for how long? Or worse? Or do they escape to America?

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
[B]
It was? By whom?

>>It may have been considered unjust, but where does the slavery part come in? Do you understand what "slavery" means? <<

Yeah. It means you are forced to work without pay. If you are forced to work but are only alllowed to keep 25 percent of the fruits of your productivity then you are a 75 percent slave. Get it?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Just like the Institution of Slavery in pre-civil war US. Perfectly legal; and instituted by politicains elected by the "people".

And your point is....????

Originally posted by Rouser2
So far you only challenge semantics. Socialist health care? Socialist education? Socialist pensions? Socialist welfare? Sociialized productivity? But not socialist? If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc....

Health care, pensions and welfare are not socialist, but humanistic. I don't know where you have the idea that education in Denmark is "socialist". Productivity? It is illegal for the state to compete with the private sector. Wrong there, buddy.

Originally posted by Rouser2
Nah. Probably prefer a climate of multi-culturalisim, eh?

I married a home-sick American. Wrong again, buddy.

Originally posted by Rouser2
All depends. I wonder how many tax resisters there are in Denmark? And how many are in jail and for how long? Or worse? Or do they escape to America?

Go do your own homework, before you start criticizing.

Originally posted by Rouser2
Yeah. It means you are forced to work without pay. If you are forced to work but are only alllowed to keep 25 percent of the fruits of your productivity then you are a 75 percent slave. Get it?

But a 1% slave is still a slave? Where is the limit to when people are slaves or not?

[Aardvark_DK]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there public schools in America? That is, schools that you pay for through taxes?


edited to add a comma

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Rouser2
[Slavery] means you are forced to work without pay. If you are forced to work but are only alllowed to keep 25 percent of the fruits of your productivity then you are a 75 percent slave.
Actually slavery entails more than that but, hey, that's details.

The Danish people have decided that they want to pay for certain things through taxes just like Americans have - although Americans have decided to decided to pay for fewer things through their taxes. Do you think that Americans are slaves? Do you think that America is a socialist country?

I suppose that it could be argued that Denmark is more socialist than America, but both countries are very far removed from pure socialism.


PS. Why don't you learn to use the quote-feature properly? Just a suggestion.


edited for tyops

[FalsePerception]

Darn it I was having FUN!!!!!

you europeans were supposed to be indignant and
and insult america the same way I insulted europe. :(

LOADS of fun!!!

your loss.

I hope no one took my pervious stereotypical message seriously!

[Earthborn]

Just like the Institution of Slavery in pre-civil war US. Perfectly legal; and instituted by politicains elected by the "people".The main point is that the institution of slavery was not instituted by politicians elected by the same people who were made to be slaves. With Taxation it is different: the same people who pay for the taxes get some say in how much taxes are raised and on what it is spend on.So far you only challenge semantics. Socialist health care? Socialist education? Socialist pensions? Socialist welfare? Sociialized productivity? But not socialist? If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc....Did you know that in the city of Hasselt in Belgium, you even have socialized public transportation. That means, you get in the bus and pay absolutely nothing! Everything is payed for by municipal taxation.

And it is SOOOOO cool! Getting around the city absolutely free, it just feels like the way it should be. Mind you: busses in the Soviet Union were never totally free! :pDarn it I was having FUN!!!!!

you europeans were supposed to be indignant and
and insult america the same way I insulted europe.

LOADS of fun!!!

your loss.

I hope no one took my pervious stereotypical message seriously!Well, you fahrenheit-using, aluminum-saying, gun-toting, moronic-climate-treaty-refusing sod! Okay, that's it! We are kicking you out of the Western World. We are officially now referring to the US as 'That barbaric wilderness East of Russia' :D

Something like that?

[LW]

Originally posted by FalsePerception
OH no not the GERMANS again, didn`t they learn their lesson the last time WE kicked their ass.
Oh, I didn't realize that you are Russian.

(Yeah, I know, feeding the trolls and everything.)

[Megalodon]

Originally posted by LW

Oh, I didn't realize that you are Russian.

(Yeah, I know, feeding the trolls and everything.)

Are you trying to imply that the americans didn't won WW2 alone and with a arm behind their back?? :eek:

[Ove]

Are you trying to imply that the americans didn't won WW2 alone and with a arm behind their back??

Off course not, we know that Ronald Reagan singlehanded kicked the nazi's all the way to Berlin. :D :D :D

Earthborn: You are right but you are speaking for deaf ears, Rouser2 just don't know what democracy is all about. :rolleyes:

Diezel: Allways a pleasure to educate you ignorant Americans about the "real" world. ;)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Rouser2
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
[B]
It was? By whom?

>>It may have been considered unjust, but where does the slavery part come in? Do you understand what "slavery" means? <<

Yeah. It means you are forced to work without pay. If you are forced to work but are only alllowed to keep 25 percent of the fruits of your productivity then you are a 75 percent slave. Get it?

So, if I was to live in a country with no taxes, then I would just accumulate all my money for the rest of my life! Cool, I'm moving there.

[FalsePerception]

I`m NOT A TROLL!!!!!!

I`m just having a little fun!

trolls are usually the mean nasty type that actually
believe the stuff they write. They will agure a ignorant
point endlessly, and never give an inch of ground,

I wrote that pervious nonsense to start a little
innocent nation bashing. LOADS OF fun!!!!

You people are too serious :(

I forgot skeptics forum!

(but do skeptics have to be humorless?):confused:

Poor humor I guess???

[Ove]

(but do skeptics have to be humorless?)

No that is a false perception..................Badabooooom :D :D
I think, if you actually read the reply, you'll find that you was answered the same way you asked. The "Prügelknabe" in this thread is Rouser 2 but he's used to it.:D :D

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CFLarsen
[B]

>>Health care, pensions and welfare are not socialist, but humanistic.<<


Humanistic or not, they are socialist.


>> I don't know where you have the idea that education in Denmark is "socialist". <<

The student does not pay. The nation pools its funds for the purpose of "free" education. That's socialist.

>>Productivity? It is illegal for the state to compete with the private sector. Wrong there, buddy.<<

If it is legal for the state to confiscate 75% of a person's productivity, that is more that "competitiion, but downright theft.


>>But a 1% slave is still a slave? Where is the limit to when people are slaves or not? <<



A 1% confiscation leaves a worker 99% "free".

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
[B]Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there public schools in America? That is, schools that you pay for through taxes?


Unfortunately, yes.

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aardvark_DK


>>The Danish people have decided that they want to pay for certain things through taxes just like Americans have - although Americans have decided to decided to pay for fewer things through their taxes. Do you think that Americans are slaves?<<


Partially, yes.

>> Do you think that America is a socialist country?<<

Partially, yes. Not quite as socialist as Denmark, though.

[iain]

Originally posted by Rouser2 >>Health care, pensions and welfare are not socialist, but humanistic.<<

Humanistic or not, they are socialist.

>> I don't know where you have the idea that education in Denmark is "socialist". <<

The student does not pay. The nation pools its funds for the purpose of "free" education. That's socialist.
From what I've seen on this forum, the European and US definitions of socialist are simply not the same, so please stop arguing about whether something is "socialist". I'm quite happy to accept that Europe is generally socialist by the definition Rouser2 and other US posters have used. I hope they can understand that this is not the definition of socialism commonly used in Europe.

[Diezel]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Diezel: Diezel, you know you are always welcome. You are also welcome not to participate. I promise, whatever your choice, even crawling back to the Banter section to play King of the Hill, we still love you. :D ;)

Nah, I thought I might come out of retirement and show everyone why I became the king. :cool:

;)

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Earthborn

>>The main point is that the institution of slavery was not instituted by politicians elected by the same people who were made to be slaves. With Taxation it is different: the same people who pay for the taxes get some say in how much taxes are raised and on what it is spend on.<<


"Some say" is correct. But by and large, the non-producers and the government drones outnumber the producers in the private sector. So effectively, the tyranny of the great unwashed majority of looters prevails, thus re-creating a genuine slavery class -- otherwise known as the "middle" class.

>>Did you know that in the city of Hasselt in Belgium, you even have socialized public transportation. That means, you get in the bus and pay absolutely nothing! Everything is payed for by municipal taxation.>>

Yeah, just like the "free" libraries in America. Really great to get something for nothing. The trick is to hide the theft so cleverly that few know or understand the true cost. If the citizens of Hasselt knew exactly what that "free" bus service cost them each year, they might not be so happy with the service.


>>And it is SOOOOO cool! Getting around the city absolutely free, it just feels like the way it should be. Mind you: busses in the Soviet Union were never totally free! <<


I recommend a book by Milton Freidman to you entitled "There is No Such a Thing as a "Free" Lunch." That goes for bus service, too.

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by a_unique_person
[B]

>>So, if I was to live in a country with no taxes, then I would just accumulate all my money for the rest of my life! Cool, I'm moving there. <<


There was a time when that country was the USA.

[iain]

Originally posted by Rouser2 >>So, if I was to live in a country with no taxes, then I would just accumulate all my money for the rest of my life! Cool, I'm moving there. <<

There was a time when that country was the USA.
But it should be noted that the USA was a small (population-wise) insignificant country at the time. The USA only became a world-class economy after they got taxation (and taxation has, I believe, increased over time along with the US's power in the world).

[Diezel]

Originally posted by iain

But it should be noted that the USA was a small (population-wise) insignificant country at the time. The USA only became a world-class economy after they got taxation (and taxation has, I believe, increased over time along with the US's power in the world).

True and not true. Rouser is wrong that the US had a period of time that there were no taxes. Well, that' s not really true either. There was the short period after the Revolutionary War and before the Constitution and the formation of the government as you see it now. This period was ruled under the Articles of Confederation and the only power of tax the government held was on postage. The experiment was such a dismal failure, a large minority, getting close to a majority, wanted to bow our heads to the UK and ask for forgiveness.

Once the current system was put into place, there was most definitly taxing going on - but there was no income tax. The first income tax on Americans was instituted in 1913. Few could say that the US was a small, insignificant country at that time.

[Ladewig]

you fahrenheit-using, aluminum-saying, gun-toting, moronic-climate-treaty-refusing sod!

Should we assume you meant "moronic, climate-treaty-refusing sod" or did you mean that Kyoto was a moronic climate treaty? I do like "fahrenheit-using." Well played. I would have added "can't-find-your-own-country-on-a-map."

[Mike B.]

Isn't it true that the Mercator Projection maps that hang on walls around the world are simply a Danish plot to make Greenland look really really big?! ;)

[FalsePerception]

Isn't it true that the maps that hang on walls around the world are simply a Danish plot to make Greenland look really really big?!

Danish conspiracy :D

heres one for you for you!!!

The Mercator Projection is the Real map of the world!!!!!

Greenland really is as large as The Mercator Projection makes it look. The actual round globe is a lie and the satellite photos are doctored by NASA under the direction of the illuminati.

The truth is greenland is really Altlantis!!!!!!! The danish and the illuminati council created this false knowledge to hide it from the world.

Greenland is Altlantis and it’s really green! (why else would those who first found it call it green) The Ice is a barrier created by the illuminati. Atlantis is the illuminati HQ, The Danish hide this knowledge because the illuminati control all danish leaders. And of course All the danish kings were illuminati!

The map companies and everything else involved in map production are also controlled by the illuminati!


(Truth be told my conspiracy isn’t the craziest I’ve heard I should try to spread this rumor and get the credulous to believe it!!!!!! ) :cool:

[Earthborn]

If the citizens of Hasselt knew exactly what that "free" bus service cost them each year, they might not be so happy with the service.<BuzzingSound> Wrong! They do know!

This policy hasn't been around that long, I think it started in the second half of the nineties. Before that, going on the bus meant you had to buy a ticket. It also meant that bus tickets increased in prize every year, and the bus company had to scrap lines that didn't make a profit to keep the rest profitable. And this meant that a significant minority of people, especially in neighbouring villages would end up with no public transportation at all.

So in a bold step the mayor made a deal with the bus company by basically directly paying for the bus service whether lines had people in them or not. And it was a huge success! In the end the bus service would cost less, could open more lines and build a brand new bus station, the bus company survived and the mayor re-elected.

So the people in Hasselt do know what a decent bus service costs, and they also know the cost of not socializing it: you would end up with a bus service that doesn't reach places where only few people at a time want to go.But by and large, the non-producers and the government drones outnumber the producers in the private sector. So effectively, the tyranny of the great unwashed majority of looters prevails, thus re-creating a genuine slavery class -- otherwise known as the "middle" class.So all these people with their suburb houses and large yards and two cars in a their two-car garages and their VISA cards that allow them to spend money they don't have, are slaves?

Dang, we really did start to treat our slaves a lot better in the last one hundred years! Especially if you realize that the ruling class of civil servants are willing to work for salaries lower than what they would make for similar jobs in the private sector and the elite of people on welfare can hardly (in Europe) to not (in US) make ends meet.

Also what you are basically saying is that 'The Burden (Costs) Of Society Is Put On The Shoulders Of The Working Class'. Man, you would make Karl Marx proud! And since the only alternative to a 'Free-Market With Taxation' ever devised by mankind is that 'The State Makes Its Own Money By Taking Over (All) Production And Distribution', I'm staring to wonder who the socialist is on this board...

[Earthborn]

Should we assume you meant "moronic, climate-treaty-refusing sod" or did you mean that Kyoto was a moronic climate treaty?Well, what do you think? Do you think that the Kyoto Treaty is taken very seriously here?

Well, actually it is. Especially here in the Netherlands, since we are the only nation in possibly the whole world that is going to meet its Kyoto targets. How? Well, by buying emission rights of course! The Netherlands is the first country that does it, hoping it can get them cheaply, because being nice to the environment is a good thing, but you can't wreck your economy for something as vague as 'maybe a degree rise in temperature in another hundred years'.

Trust me, we don't worry about it that the US isn't in the Kyoto treaty at all. Once we bought all emission rights from around the world, we will force you into it. :D I would have added "can't-find-your-own-country-on-a-map."I didn't want to be so harsh. I guess I'm just one of those soft Europussies... :)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Rouser2
[QUOTE]Originally posted by a_unique_person
[B]

>>So, if I was to live in a country with no taxes, then I would just accumulate all my money for the rest of my life! Cool, I'm moving there. <<


There was a time when that country was the USA.

Man, I need to raise my sarcasm level. The point is, even if there were no taxes, whatsoever, I would still have to spend my money. I never get to keep it all........

The issue is, how much is taken in tax, for a common 'socialist' pool, and how much i spend directly.

[shuize]

Exactly. The government knows best. It's actually rather kind of them to let the Danes even keep 25% of what they earn.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by shuize
Exactly. The government knows best. It's actually rather kind of them to let the Danes even keep 25% of what they earn.

Danes do not view their government the way Americans (to pick on the obvious!) view theirs. The Danish government is not regarded as some high-and-mighty unreachable power that swings the stick over the helpless citizens.

The Danish government (and it doesn't matter which 'side' rules) treads very lightly, at all times. It is easy to create a 'stir', and the politicians will react very quickly.

It is extremely easy to get political influence in Denmark - since relatively few are actual members of a political party.

[DanishDynamite]

FalsePerception:you europeans were supposed to be indignant and insult america the same way I insulted europe. Well....okay then, but just this once: Americans are all burger-chomping, selfaggrandizing, triggerhappy, car-hugging, selfabsorbed cowboys, whose intellectual capacity is best illustrated by the name they've given to a local game played almost exclusively using the hands: Football.

:) How was that?

Mike B.Isn't it true that the Mercator Projection maps that hang on walls around the world are simply a Danish plot to make Greenland look really really big?! ;) Impressive, isn't it? :)

Of course, Mercator Projection aside, its still 3 times the size of Texas or 50 times larger than Denmark.

FalsePerception:Greenland is Altlantis and it’s really green! (why else would those who first found it call it green) There is actually something of a conspiracy behind the "green" bit in Greenland.

From this site: (http://www.rudyfoto.com/grl/greenlandvikings.html)
In 982 A.D., the famous Viking explorer Erikur Raude (Erik the Red) found himself in trouble, again. Already banished from his native Norway for carrying a blood feud to its violent extremes, he was labled an outlaw by Icelandic authorities for avenging the death of two of his servants in true Viking style. So, Erik set sail from his newly adopted home and headed west to what's known today as Greenland. The land was already discovered by earlier adventurers, and stories of their voyages undoubtedly were circulated in the western fjords of Iceland, where Erik made his home. Erik also found a willing crew, as Iceland was gripped by famine, and young men like Erik were unable to secure choice land in the new Atlantic colony.

According to the sagas, "The land he discovered he called Greenland because he said it would attract people if the country had a beautiful name." In the south fjords he visited, the land was warmer and greener then due to a warming off period, and it's likely his lasting label was more than slick hucksterism. Erik found the fjords suitable for farming and colonization, and he explored Greenland's west coast and lived off the land for three years. To the likely astonishment of his countrymen, he returned to Iceland in 985 A.D. to promote a colony.

[Ove]

Well....okay then, but just this once: Americans are all burger-chomping, selfaggrandizing, triggerhappy, car-hugging, selfabsorbed cowboys, whose intellectual capacity is best illustrated by the name they've given to a local game played almost exclusively using the hands: Football.

And you know what? When, during that game, they have to kick the ball they've had to import a Dane to show them how it's done, Go Morten!!!! :D

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by iain
[B]
>>But it should be noted that the USA was a small (population-wise) insignificant country at the time. The USA only became a world-class economy after they got taxation (and taxation has, I believe, increased over time along with the US's power in the world). <<


The "size" of a country has little to do with taxation. But the fact is, the patriots of 1776 waged a revolution over taxation. Still, there was plenty of taxation after the British were defeated. And after the Louisiana Purchase, the US became a very large nation, indeed and a world player. But Thomas Jefferson vowed to wipe out internal revenue taxation if elected. And 8 years later, he proudly boasted not a single internal revenue collector existed in the entire US as all internal revenue taxes had been abolished!

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Earthborn
[B]<BuzzingSound> Wrong! They do know!

This policy hasn't been around that long, I think it started in the second half of the nineties. Before that, going on the bus meant you had to buy a ticket. It also meant that bus tickets increased in prize every year, and the bus company had to scrap lines that didn't make a profit to keep the rest profitable. And this meant that a significant minority of people, especially in neighbouring villages would end up with no public transportation at all.<<


Sounds like "lemon" socialism to me. Subsidizing activities that people have rejected in the free market place.



>>So in a bold step the mayor made a deal with the bus company by basically directly paying for the bus service whether lines had people in them or not.<<

Excellent reasoning.

>> And it was a huge success! <<

Uhh, excuse me? A success for whom? The few who use it, not the many who pay for it.

>>In the end the bus service would cost less, could open more lines and build a brand new bus station, the bus company survived and the mayor re-elected.>>

How serving unprofitiable areas makes the bus service cost "less" is a conclusion in defiance of all logic.

>>So the people in Hasselt do know what a decent bus service costs, and they also know the cost of not socializing it: you would end up with a bus service that doesn't reach places where only few people at a time want to go.<<


Obviously, neither the people of Hasslet know what they are really paying, an neither do you.

>>So all these people with their suburb houses and large yards and two cars in a their two-car garages and their VISA cards that allow them to spend money they don't have, are slaves?<<


Partially, yes. But not as much slaves as the people of Denmark, perhaps.


>>Dang, we really did start to treat our slaves a lot better in the last one hundred years! Especially if you realize that the ruling class of civil servants are willing to work for salaries lower than what they would make for similar jobs in the private sector<<

A very doubtful assertion.


>>Also what you are basically saying is that 'The Burden (Costs) Of Society Is Put On The Shoulders Of The Working Class'.<<

The burden of society's plundering of individual weatlh is on the producers.

>>Man, you would make Karl Marx proud! And since the only alternative to a 'Free-Market With Taxation' ever devised by mankind is that 'The State Makes Its Own Money By Taking Over (All) Production And Distribution', I'm staring to wonder who the socialist is on this board... <<

That's the old fallacy of the false delimma "either this, or that". In fact, there are other choices, namely, a society where there is no taxation at all except for those paid voluntarily -- a condition that used to previal in the USA for most of its history up to about 1915.

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kittynh
[

>>WE also have no income and no sales tax. Our property tax we love to complain about, but it is lower than our neighboring states. You can have a good life and low taxes. People here are highly educated and take great personal responsibility. I don't know how it works, but it does.<<

Kudos to New Hampshire! A lesson for the rest of the nation and the world. And I believe the New Hampshire state motto imprinted on all license plates to be instructive:

"LIVE FREE, OR DIE".

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DanishDynamite


>>Well....okay then, but just this once: Americans are all burger-chomping, selfaggrandizing, triggerhappy, car-hugging, selfabsorbed cowboys, whose intellectual capacity is best illustrated by the name they've given to a local game played almost exclusively using the hands: Football.<<


You can insult Americans for their eating habits, their ugly American self aggrandizing, their love of cars and guns -- and cowboys, but don't you insult America Football! I don't believe you or anyone can name another physical sport which requires more brains and strategy thinking than football. And I don't mean that "exciting" European brand which lasts 3 hours, has no contact and ends in zero, zero ties.

[Ove]

And I don't mean that "exciting" European brand which lasts 3 hours, has no contact and ends in zero, zero ties.

FYI a soccer match lasts 2 x 45 min's with a 15 min interval. and contrary to american footbal the players do the thinking, they are not soldiers in need of directions from the coach constantly during the match. AND there are no commercial demanded time-outs. AND 0-0 draws are rare. AND even a 0-0draw can be pretty entertaining to watch.

The big difference is that 2 x 45 min is actual playing time, which was one of the things the american TV networks complained deeply over when the world cup was held over there. To me an american football game seems to consist of 30 sec. explosive action followed by 2 - 5 min of wandering around, lining up, discussing with the coach etc. BORING BORING BORING. ;)

[The Don]

Originally posted by Rouser2

You can insult Americans for their eating habits, their ugly American self aggrandizing, their love of cars and guns -- and cowboys, but don't you insult America Football! I don't believe you or anyone can name another physical sport which requires more brains and strategy thinking than football. And I don't mean that "exciting" European brand which lasts 3 hours, has no contact and ends in zero, zero ties.

- Rugby Union
- Rugby League

and of course the master of all sports... Cheese rolling
http://www.cheese-rolling.co.uk/

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Rouser2
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DanishDynamite


>>Well....okay then, but just this once: Americans are all burger-chomping, selfaggrandizing, triggerhappy, car-hugging, selfabsorbed cowboys, whose intellectual capacity is best illustrated by the name they've given to a local game played almost exclusively using the hands: Football.<<


You can insult Americans for their eating habits, their ugly American self aggrandizing, their love of cars and guns -- and cowboys, but don't you insult America Football! I don't believe you or anyone can name another physical sport which requires more brains and strategy thinking than football. And I don't mean that "exciting" European brand which lasts 3 hours, has no contact and ends in zero, zero ties.

aussie rules, rules.


strategy, muscles, thinking, speed, endurance, kicking and ball handling, and no padding.


http://www.sportal.com.au/photos/gallery/001751gallery.jpg

[Diezel]

While I won't get into the fight about which games are better, I must say one thing about the "no pads" aspect I hear often from the non-Americans...

I once showed the comparison of an American football team and a British rugby team, size wise. The fact of the matter is, American football players are HUGE! Think of an American running back, some of them weighing in now at close to 300 pounds, running at you at top speed (much faster than you and I can run) and you are supposed to stop him!

And for the physics geeks, calculate the force of two 300 pound men, running at more than 15 mph (ballpark, I really don't know how fast they can run), colliding head on.

Fact is, these are are huge and only getting bigger. If they didn't wear pads, there would be bones snapping on every play. :eek:

[Drooper]

Hang on a minute. The 300 pounders tend to be offensive linesmen don't they? In which case they run at about 2 mph, downhill with a tailwind.

On the rugby front, the biggest players to to be just over the 250 pound mark. The odd one pushes 270-280. They also have a very low body fat ratio, unlike those porky linesmen.

The difference with rugby (league and union) players is that they need to have more cardiovascular stamina and speed.

[The Don]

Have not watched (American) Football for a while but was under the impression that running backs were typically in the 230-260 lb range rather than 300+ (linemen ?).

For size try Jonah Lomu or any of the Tongan or Samoan backs and see how you get on

[Drooper]

Jonah Lomu is around 270 pounds.

He is also fast!!! Or he was fast, he seems to have lost a tad.

His fastest 100m time is 10.8

[Diezel]

Originally posted by Drooper
Hang on a minute. The 300 pounders tend to be offensive linesmen don't they? In which case they run at about 2 mph, downhill with a tailwind.

On the rugby front, the biggest players to to be just over the 250 pound mark. The odd one pushes 270-280. They also have a very low body fat ratio.

The difference with rugby (league and union) players is that they need to have more cardiovascular stamina and speed.

No, the linesmen are pushing 400 pounds now (Stocker McDougal of the Detroit Lions is 380, Aron Gibson was over 400 pounds.) Running backs are going 250+, fullbacks 275+ and linebackers going 250-300 pounds.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Diezel


No, the linesmen are pushing 400 pounds now (Stocker McDougal of the Detroit Lions is 380, Aron Gibson was over 400 pounds.) Running backs are going 250+, fullbacks 275+ and linebackers going 250-300 pounds.

Is that body weight, or inclusive of all that gurly padding they wear? :p :D

[Diezel]

You also have to remember, the games are different. I will state now that I don't know much about either Aussie Rules (which I have watched hours of, but still can't see a structured game - it just seems like and official version of the playground game "Smear the Queer", which, of course, is not PC, but that is what we called it when we were kids) or rugby, but I have never seen the type of tackling that goes on in the NFL. It seems to be more of a "running grab, pull down, try to get the ball", where the NFL is "stick your helmet in his chest, wrap up his legs and drive him into the ground."

[edited to add]

Oh, and once the player passes the line of scrimmage with the ball, there is very little he can do to get rid of it. He is getting tackled, without the luxury of getting rid of the ball when it looks like he is going to get hit.

[The Don]

Rugby League has been that way for a long time, Rugby Union is getting that way given that defences seem to "stand up in the line" rather than operating a more old fashioned drift defence

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Diezel

Oh, and once the player passes the line of scrimmage with the ball, there is very little he can do to get rid of it. He is getting tackled, without the luxury of getting rid of the ball when it looks like he is going to get hit.

Don't you retain possession if you simply run out of bounds?

[The Don]

..and don't you retain posession even if you fumble it out of bounds.

and there's no law against a lateral pass, it's just not the accepted practice

[Diezel]

Originally posted by Drooper


Don't you retain possession if you simply run out of bounds?

Yes. But from the middle of the field, this isn't easy. And often, it is undesirable to do so. If you are leading and have the ball, you want to run down the clock. If a player goes out of bounds, the clock stops, so you don't want that. You run up the middle of the field and hope to get tackled, just getting short gains to keep possesion.

Now, if you are losing and time is running out, you want to get to the sidelines and stop the clock every play. Well, the defense isn't going to like this and isn't going to make it easy.

It's all part of the game. The only players you will see that will purposely try to avoid getting hit (well, they all try, but I mean when it is inevitable) are the quarterbacks. They are usually not very big guys (comparatively speaking) and take a pounding all day anyway, so they will throw the ball away (only when they are behind the line of scrimmage), run out of bounds or slide before getting tackled. But, the quarterbacks these days are getting big too, so they are starting to run the ball like running backs. :)

[Diezel]

Originally posted by The Don
..and don't you retain posession even if you fumble it out of bounds.

and there's no law against a lateral pass, it's just not the accepted practice

Lateral passes are legal, but there is a good reason you don't see them often - they just aren't a good strategy.

As for fumbling it out of bounds, I don't understand why that matters.

[Drooper]

and you can still pass the ball can't you? (as long as you pass it backwards)

So beoyond the line of scrimmage, it is very much like rugby league, except you (as ball carrier) are allowed to have anyone protect you by blocking, can run off the field of play and retain possession, get to run in (rugby parlance) broken field.

So there seems to be ample luxury there.

[Drooper]

Does anybondy know how we came to be debating the realtive merits of football codes on a thread about "Thrutth about Denmark" in the Political forum???:confused:

[The Don]

I guess it was to highlight that there is a little more room for error in (American) Football and thus by extrapolation that every person that ever played it, watched it or thought about doing either is a big flowery girls blouse (i.e. a big flowery blouse for a girl not a blouse for a big flowery girl).

Rugby on the other hand (either version) if you lose the ball and it travels forward, you lose posession, you don't have a chance for a fumble recovery (so long as there was no preceding infringement)

On a disappointing note, professional rugby players are starting to wear padding and scrum caps (which look rather like old fashioned (American) Football helmets). This in turn is encouraging irresponsible play IMHO

[Diezel]

Originally posted by Drooper
and you can still pass the ball can't you? (as long as you pass it backwards)

So beoyond the line of scrimmage, it is very much like rugby league, except you (as ball carrier) are allowed to have anyone protect you by blocking, can run off the field of play and retain possession, get to run in (rugby parlance) broken field.

So there seems to be ample luxury there.

Watch a game and tell me how often that happens. I couldn't tell you the last time I have seen a lateral pass (well, it sometimes happens on kick-offs, because the kicker will kick the ball away from the best kick returner, so the person that catches the ball might pass or hand-off that ball to the better returner.)

In practice, if you have the ball, you are getting tackled. Turn-overs are a major concern in football and you do everything you can to minimize that threat. So you don't lateral pass. And the defence doesn't want you to get out of bounds.

[Diezel]

Originally posted by The Don
I guess it was to highlight that there is a little more room for error in (American) Football and thus by extrapolation that every person that ever played it, watched it or thought about doing either is a big flowery girls blouse (i.e. a big flowery blouse for a girl not a blouse for a big flowery girl).

Rugby on the other hand (either version) if you lose the ball and it travels forward, you lose posession, you don't have a chance for a fumble recovery (so long as there was no preceding infringement)

On a disappointing note, professional rugby players are starting to wear padding and scrum caps (which look rather like old fashioned (American) Football helmets). This in turn is encouraging irresponsible play IMHO

Yea, American football players are girly...

Now what was that about sticking thumbs up each others as*es in the scrums? Nothing but good ole male bonding, right? :D

[Drooper]

Originally posted by The Don
On a disappointing note, professional rugby players are starting to wear padding and scrum caps (which look rather like old fashioned (American) Football helmets). This in turn is encouraging irresponsible play IMHO

It's been downhill all the wa in rugby, since they allowed the use of shoulder pads.

[Diezel]

Originally posted by Drooper
Does anybondy know how we came to be debating the realtive merits of football codes on a thread about "Thrutth about Denmark" in the Political forum???:confused:

Because the country is so boring, it could only hold our interest for three pages. ;)

[The Don]

Originally posted by Drooper


It's been downhill all the wa in rugby, since they allowed the use of shoulder pads.



... and discouraged the use of thumbs

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Diezel


Yea, American football players are girly...

Now what was that about sticking thumbs up each others as*es in the scrums? Nothing but good ole male bonding, right? :D

Let's share some "our footballers or sooo tough..." anecdotes.

I remember Keith Harris playing 40 minutes with a broken arm strapped to his body while playing for Eastern Subburbs(?) in the 1970s.

Now THAT was tough.

[The Don]

Wednesday, 29 January, 2003, 11:38 GMT
Do you back Budge Pountney?


Former Scotland rugby union captain Budge Pountney is set to announce his retirement, blaming the SRU's "unprofessionalism".
Is Pountney's decision justified?



Budge Pountney walked out of a Scotland training session on Monday, in protest at poor organisation at Murrayfield.

The decision comes just two weeks after Pountney underwent an operation to remove a testicle.


The 29-year-old suffered a kick to the groin while playing for Northampton against London Irish on 4 January, and the injury is thought to be a contributory factor in his decision.




But still he played on... That's a real man !

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Diezel
Now what was that about sticking thumbs up each others as*es in the scrums? Nothing but good ole male bonding, right? :D


Yeah, but there is no accounting for those Kiwis.

[Diezel]

Originally posted by Drooper


Let's share some "our footballers or sooo tough..." anecdotes.

I remember Keith Harris playing 40 minutes with a broken arm strapped to his body while playing for Eastern Subburbs(?) in the 1970s.

Now THAT was tough.

American football players routinely play with broken hands, arms, noses, fingers, even ankles. Acutally, a casted hand for a lineman is a good thing, keeping them from "holding", which is a penalty.

Many (and I mean many) football players become cripples after their playing career, after playing hurt for so many years, their bodies just give up.

[mbp]

Originally posted by Diezel

Because the country is so boring, it could only hold our interest for three pages.
And yet the thread stayed mostly on topic until you arrived.
Must be a coincidence :)


American football players routinely play with broken hands, arms, noses, fingers, even ankles.
They routinely play with broken ankles? No way. I broke my ankle once, and I couldn't have taken a single step with that injury. Not because I'm a whimp (although I am). It just wouldn't have been possible.
Except perhaps with a very loose definition of "broken".

[Diezel]

Originally posted by mbp

And yet the thread stayed mostly on topic until you arrived.
Must be a coincidence :)

Hey, I stayed out of it, until it went off topic! I wasn't the one that brought up football. :D


They routinely play with broken ankles? No way. I broke my ankle once, and I couldn't have taken a single step with that injury. Not because I'm a whimp (although I am). It just wouldn't have been possible.
Except perhaps with a very loose definition of "broken".

Nope, broken. Donovon McNabb (quarterback) played almost an entire season with a broken ankle.

They wrap that thing up so tight, it is like they have a cast on.

Oh, and don't forget about cortozone. Never forget about cortozone - the NFL's second biggest budget expense, after salary. ;)

[Diezel]

Here's a funny article about the ethics of taking out McNabb's ankle (which was already broken) during the play-off game. :D

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/sports/falcons/0103/07ankle.html

[Shane Costello]

Speaking of football, wasn't that a worthless, risible performance by the Danes against England in the World Cup?

[mbp]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Speaking of football, wasn't that a worthless, risible performance by the Danes against England in the World Cup?
Very much so. It was most frustrating to watch them give up without a fight after having done quite well in the first round.
The defeat against Spain in 1986 hurts more, though. I still think we could have won that tournament with a bit of luck.
Oh, well. We'll always have 1992.

[mbp]

Originally posted by Diezel

Hey, I stayed out of it, until it went off topic! I wasn't the one that brought up football. :D

True.
But once you post to a thread it becomes a virtual member of the Banter forum and people assume that anything goes. :)



Nope, broken. Donovon McNabb (quarterback) played almost an entire season with a broken ankle.

The article you referred to above states that he had a "fractured" ankle. Couldn't this refer to a hairline fracture or splinter knocked off a bone or something like that rather than a real break? (If I understand things correctly a break is a fracture but a fracture is not necessarily a break.)
When an ankle is broken the way mine was, the foot is only attached to the leg by soft tissue. No amount of wrapping up will allow someone to run in that condition.

... and the Falcons should definitely have gone for his ankle. By taking part in the game you declare yourself 100% fit, imho.

[Diezel]

Originally posted by mbp

True.
But once you post to a thread it becomes a virtual member of the Banter forum and people assume that anything goes. :)

Hey, I used to be over here all the time. It's not my fault you guys let the place go to the trolls. :)


The article you referred to above states that he had a "fractured" ankle. Couldn't this refer to a hairline fracture or splinter knocked off a bone or something like that rather than a real break? (If I understand things correctly a break is a fracture but a fracture is not necessarily a break.)
When an ankle is broken the way mine was, the foot is only attached to the leg by soft tissue. No amount of wrapping up will allow someone to run in that condition.

... and the Falcons should definitely have gone for his ankle. By taking part in the game you declare yourself 100% fit, imho.

Very few broken bones are "broken" all the way through, like yours was. That is a special case and usually winds up as a "compound fracture", with the bone coming out through the skin.

Yes, not all "breaks" or fractures are equal, but there is pain involved in every one of them. :D

[mbp]

Getting nearly back on topic now.
Denmark is offering troops (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030131/ap_wo_en_po/eu_gen_denmark_iraq_3) for the war against Iraq. Fifty guys from the special forces and a submarine with a crew of twenty people! If this doesn't scare Saddam into exile, nothing will.

[Diezel]

Originally posted by mbp
Getting nearly back on topic now.
Denmark is offering troops (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030131/ap_wo_en_po/eu_gen_denmark_iraq_3) for the war against Iraq. Fifty guys from the special forces and a submarine with a crew of twenty people! If this doesn't scare Saddam into exile, nothing will.

Do you have any clue what your spending per soldier/salior/airman/marine is? I'm thinking, if the numbers quoted earlier were correct (1-2% GDP), Denmark most spend a ton more per body in training, equipment, etc.... This is one of the advanatges Israel has and why they have such a good fighting force.

[mbp]

Originally posted by Diezel

Do you have any clue what your spending per soldier/salior/airman/marine is? I'm thinking, if the numbers quoted earlier were correct (1-2% GDP), Denmark most spend a ton more per body in training, equipment, etc....
According to NATO (http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2002/issue2/graphics/contents/i2_st4.gif), we spent 1.5% of our GDP in 2001 whereas the US spent almost 3%. The US had 59 times (http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2002/issue2/graphics/contents/i2_st1.gif) as many people in the armed forces.
Now, the population of the US is not quite sixty times as large as the Danish, but it's probably somewhere in the fifties. Assuming the GDP per capita to be roughly the same, the average amount spent on an American soldier is quite a bit higher.

It should also be considered that nearly all Danish soldiers are conscripts who only serve for 6-12 months before going into the reserves

The special forces (which is what we sent to Afghanistan and what will possibly be going to Iraq) are a different matter, though, and most likely well trained and equipped.

[DanishDynamite]

My Ed, I never should have mentioned bloody football! For a while there, it seemed I was in Banter. And I definitely think there is a connection with Diezel's entrance. Has the old warhorse gone soft? ;)

mbp:
Fifty guys from the special forces and a submarine with a crew of twenty people! If this doesn't scare Saddam into exile, nothing will. :D :D

[Earthborn]

Rouser still isn't convinced:
Uhh, excuse me? A success for whom? The few who use it, not the many who pay for it.
...
How serving unprofitiable areas makes the bus service cost "less" is a conclusion in defiance of all logic.
...
Obviously, neither the people of Hasslet know what they are really paying, an neither do you.<BuzzingSound> Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

http://www.progress.org/sprawl05.htm
http://www.ils.nrw.de/netz/leda/database/measures/meas0270.htm
Oh, heck check them all out yourself:
http://www.google.nl/search?q=hasselt+free+buses&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=nl&lr=

From here:
http://www.globalideasbank.org/inspir/INS-155.HTML
A year later the use of public transport has increased by a staggering 800 per cent. The merchants are happy because business has increased; there are fewer accidents, fewer road casualties and there has been an increase in social activity.

The same day that the town made the buses free, they also slashed local taxes - the inhabitants of Hasselt are now paying less than they were ten years ago. More people are attracted to Hasselt because it is easier to get there and the extra income has reduced the local taxes.

One of the reasons the measure was adopted was a shortage of funds - the city did not have enough money to expand its roads. Free buses were a cheaper alternative, and it worked. The city had been slowly losing population, but since the new measures were adopted, the population has been rising 25 times faster than it was shrinking. (Emphasis mine)

[Diezel]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
My Ed, I never should have mentioned bloody football! For a while there, it seemed I was in Banter. And I definitely think there is a connection with Diezel's entrance. Has the old warhorse gone soft? ;)


My my, I didn't know my reputation had become so sullied by my absence from the "serious" forums. Truth be told, it felt like I had already had the same debates 100 times over and the trolls were taking over anyway, so I thought I would try to stir up some social topics in Banter for awhile.

But, I'm out of retirement! :D

[DanishDynamite]

Diezel:Truth be told, it felt like I had already had the same debates 100 times over and the trolls were taking over anyway, so I thought I would try to stir up some social topics in Banter for awhile. Truth be told, I understand how you feel. I used to roam a fair bit in the R&P forum (it was my favorite for a long time), but not only did it become troll infested, it also seemed like all topics had already been debated.

The Politics section at least presents current issues we can bicker about.

But, I'm out of retirement! :D Welcome back!

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Earthborn
[
Re: >>"A year later the use of public transport has increased by a staggering 800 per cent."<<

Staggering as well to the businesses involved in making money from private transporation. Cars, tires, repairs, restaurants, gas, oil, etc., etc., etc.

>>The merchants are happy because business has increased; <<

It could be a great deal for merchants -- to have people who don't patronize them provide the funds for the transport of others.

And beware of the fallacy of the Visible as versus the Invisable -- a fallacy that socialists routinely use in pointing to the all the wonderful visible outcomes of their socialist projects. But the invisable transfers of wealth are not so easily seen. And a transfer of wealth is just that. It is not a creation of new wealth.

>>there are fewer accidents, fewer road casualties and there has been an increase in social activity. <<

These are assertions unsupported by any facts from your left leaning links.


>>The same day that the town made the buses free, they also slashed local taxes - the inhabitants of Hasselt are now paying less than they were ten years ago.<<

That's the old Laffer Curve. I wholeheartedly agree. Less taxes means more wealth. More even for the revenooers who steal it.

>>More people are attracted to Hasselt because it is easier to get there <<

Don't know about easier. Cheaper maybe.

>>One of the reasons the measure was adopted was a shortage of funds - the city did not have enough money to expand its roads. Free buses were a cheaper alternative, and it worked. The city had been slowly losing population, but since the new measures were adopted, the population has been rising 25 times faster than it was shrinking. <<

Hmmm. So. does this mean the happy people of Hasslet are having more sex? Or fewer abortions? Or just more people being seduced to come from elsewhere to partake in the freebies?

[Earthborn]

Rouser, you just can't tolerate even one little success for the left, can you?Staggering as well to the businesses involved in making money from private transporation. Cars, tires, repairs, (..), gas, oil, etc., etc., etc.So you claim that there is less private transportation in Hasselt? Well, that's a claim that requires evidence. I would think that people just go to the city more often, not necessarily making all personal transportation disappear. When I was there, there seemed to be enough cars around...
restaurantsRestaurants? That one you need to explain... Are you claiming that people eat less because the buses are free? Or are you saying that people don't go to restaurants anymore because they could go there by bus for free? I don't get it...But the invisable transfers of wealth are not so easily seen.Duh, the invisible man is also not so easily seen.It is not a creation of new wealth.Could you explain to a socialist, who so easily falls for such fallacies, when exactly something is 'creation of new wealth' and not just 'an invisible transfer of wealth'. Also carefully explain how you came to the conclusion that it is an 'invisible transfer of wealth' since by definition you could not have seen it yourself!

In my infinitely naive knowledge of economics, I always thought that the most important cornerstone of economics is that when two people trade goods, it is possible that both feel richer. Basically economics is the transfer of goods. If all people involved feel richer it is a creation of wealth is it not?These are assertions unsupported by any facts from your left leaning links.So, what? I just quoted it. And I didn't try to make an issue out of it.That's the old Laffer Curve. I wholeheartedly agree.Well, see? Even you would have felt better if you lived there! :)
It's a WIN-WIN situation.Don't know about easier. Cheaper maybe.You know just as well as I do that easier and cheaper are sometimes used as synonyms. Easier='Costs less effort' Cheaper='Costs less'.Or just more people being seduced to come from elsewhere to partake in the freebies?I'm pretty sure it's exactly that. They live in he city, and pay taxes. Because more people are there paying taxes, less taxes per person are needed. Less taxes, more people are actracted to go live there. And all the while the buses are free!

BTW: Learn to quote and to spell 'Hasselt'

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Earthborn

>>So you claim that there is less private transportation in Hasselt? <<

It's a reasonable inference from your claim of 8 times the ridership on "free" buses, with your claim of fewer accidents, less traffic, etc.

>>Restaurants? That one you need to explain... Are you claiming that people eat less because the buses are free?<<

No. Everybody's got to eat somewhere sometime. And the restaurants that might be patronized along the route by those in private cars logically would get less business if a bus transports them to some other location without the normal periodic stops a private car might make.

>>Could you explain to a socialist, who so easily falls for such fallacies, when exactly something is 'creation of new wealth' and not just 'an invisible transfer of wealth'.<<

If you grow a carrot; you have created wealth for that carrot is worth something. If you trade that carrot for a cup of coffee, no new wealth is created, but only transferred via the exchange.

>>Also carefully explain how you came to the conclusion that it is an 'invisible transfer of wealth' since by definition you could not have seen it yourself!<<


When a freeloader rides a "free" bus. He's sees the visible, the obvious. A free bus ride. But he does not see the guns and the jails that are there in the happy town of Hasselt to intimidate the many to provide the funds for that "free" bus ride. Those guns, jails, and transfers of funds to the Government Bus Agency are largly invisible, especially to the happy freeloading bus riders.

>>In my infinitely naive knowledge of economics, I always thought that the most important cornerstone of economics is that when two people trade goods, it is possible that both feel richer. Basically economics is the transfer of goods. If all people involved feel richer it is a creation of wealth is it not?<<


Yes, both parties feel and are richer. But the transfer of the wealth object remains the same. By trading a fish for a cup of coffee or for a sum of money, there is no creation of new wealth.

>>So, what? I just quoted it. And I didn't try to make an issue out of it.<<

It's not a respected neutral news site, but an organization with a left leaning agenda.

>>I'm pretty sure it's exactly that. They live in he city, and pay taxes. Because more people are there paying taxes, less taxes per person are needed. Less taxes, more people are actracted to go live there. And all the while the buses are free!<<

Don't confuse two separate issues. Less taxes mean more wealth even for the government. But nonetheless, there is no such a thing as a "free" bus ride.

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Rouser2
But he does not see the guns and the jails that are there in the happy town of Hasselt to intimidate the many to provide the funds for that "free" bus ride. Those guns, jails, and transfers of funds to the Government Bus Agency are largly invisible, especially to the happy freeloading bus riders.
Hey, whatever you say, man. Here in Denmark we have something called the NKVD. They are big men dressed completely in black, and they go around to all households where people (aka. slaves) question our communist ways - and those people just conveniently disappear...

'Scuse me, someone's at the door.

[Ove]

Rouser2 i'm sorry to say but you are a nutcase. I hereby declare you a Troll and promise never to debate with you anymore. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[shuize]

Just by calling something "free" does not make it so. It is not "trolling" to point that out.

[Earthborn]

It's a reasonable inference from your claim of 8 times the ridership on "free" buses, with your claim of fewer accidents, less traffic, etc.It's not my claim, it is the claim of those 'left leaning' sites I linked to.No. Everybody's got to eat somewhere sometime. And the restaurants that might be patronized along the route by those in private cars logically would get less business if a bus transports them to some other location without the normal periodic stops a private car might make.You make no sense whatsoever. That the people in private cars make stops on the way to the town? And along the roads to town all kinds of restaurants sprung up to center these people who obviously need to eat every darn minute!

It's a city busservice for cryin' out loud! Everything is just 5 minutes away by car!

If you grow a carrot; you have created wealth for that carrot is worth something. If you trade that carrot for a cup of coffee, no new wealth is created, but only transferred via the exchange.
(...)
Yes, both parties feel and are richer. But the transfer of the wealth object remains the same. By trading a fish for a cup of coffee or for a sum of money, there is no creation of new wealth.By your definition of the 'creation of wealth', very little wealth is ever created. I could even argue that no wealth is created ever. If you grow a carrot, the soil will have less nutrients left, and that's worth something too!

I use a different definition of the creation of wealth, and I think it is more common umong economists. Suppose one person lives near a well and has enough water. Another person has a wheat field and has enough food. They could increase their wealth by trading: swap some wheat for some water and both are better of. That's wealth being created, except in your definition.

When a freeloader rides a "free" bus. He's sees the visible, the obvious. A free bus ride. But he does not see the guns and the jails that are there in the happy town of Hasselt to intimidate the many to provide the funds for that "free" bus ride. Those guns, jails, and transfers of funds to the Government Bus Agency are largly invisible, especially to the happy freeloading bus riders.Right... Guns and jails are needed to make people pay less taxes. Those whacky europeans love paying taxes so much, that the government needs to do everything it can to prevent them from paying too much. Right... That made sense. :D

How about 'all the guns and jails' in a happy town outside of the Hasselt municipal boundaries that are needed to intimidate people paying for the bus fare? Why would that be alright all of a sudden?Don't confuse two separate issues. Less taxes mean more wealth even for the government. But nonetheless, there is no such a thing as a "free" bus ride.Indeed, but there are a number of ways to pay for it. This is one of them and nobody involved is complaining about it.

[Rouser2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Earthborn

>>I use a different definition of the creation of wealth, and I think it is more common umong economists. Suppose one person lives near a well and has enough water. Another person has a wheat field and has enough food. They could increase their wealth by trading: swap some wheat for some water and both are better of. That's wealth being created, except in your definition.<<

The one is of more value to the other of which each has in surplus. But no new real wealth is created by the exchange.

>>How about 'all the guns and jails' in a happy town outside of the Hasselt municipal boundaries that are needed to intimidate people paying for the bus fare? Why would that be alright all of a sudden?<<

Of course. If you get on a bus to get a ride, you are required to pay the fare. But the act of boarding the bus is voluntary. Thus is also the payment of the fare. Not so with the guns pointed at the heads of taxpayers involuntarily required to support the freeloading riders on the "free" bus.