The reality of Mt. Doom...

[c4ts]

What if you could know beyond a doubt that a land of Mordor(sp?) exists? What if you could hear and experience the screaming, pain, torment, horror and everything evil that is in Mordor? What if scientists actually found Mordor and found billions of terrified people who have been banished to Sauron's Tower forever? What if you could know what happens to people who leave their villages without Frodo? What if you could read reports from doctors of people who have gone on plane trips to New Zealand and have come back screaming ''I'm in Mordor!''

Well now you can:

(Website proof 1, excerpt:)
WE KNOW EXACTLY WHERE MORDOR IS! The Fellowship of the Ring states that Mordor is in Middle Earth. Therefore Mordor must be DIRECTLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE EARTH, RIGHT IN THE CENTER!

Scientists say the center of the Earth is made of really hot material. Tolkein says Mordor is really hot. Sometimes. In the summer. Anyway both are really hot, THEREFORE THEY MUST BE THE SAME PLACE!!!!

(Website proof 2, excerpt:)
Russian scientists found Mordor when their drilling equipment hit slate instead of granite and fell apart! A witness says he heard the bloodthirsty screams of the orks. The Russians were scared! Their fear was real! Because Mordor is real! Just look at this headline from the misinformed newspaper that started the whole thing!

(Website proof 3, excerpt:)
In a dream, Frodo took me down to Mordor and I heard the most AWFUL, DISGUSTING, TERRIBLE SONG EVER!!! A tortured hobbit started singing it in a dull, emotionless voice, he was being skinned alive again and again!!! This is the song:

Giant wyrms crawl in, giant wyrms crawl out in the anus and out the mouth! In the front and out the rear ! In the eyes and out the ears! We scream for mercy yet NO one cares or hears! Red hot pain in my blood rivers of feces, lava,vomit and blood it looks like a flood! This song has no tune or rhythm! Flames everywhere yet they cast NO light! All I have is every kind of pain, terror , torture and fright! I am a Citizen in MORDOR!


Nobody's responding to my post. I gave you my proof! I win the debate!

[c4ts]

I guess I'll put this victory right on my signature...

[AK-Dave]

I was going to debate you until I saw your proofs. I'm now totally convinced and switching my position.
Victory is yours - you earned it.

[phildonnia]

How do you explain the numerous contradictions in the works of JRR Tolkein?

For example:

Tom Bombadil claims to be the "Eldest", but later Celeborn describes Treebeard as the "Eldest". Which is it?

In the book of FOTR, The Balrog at Khazad-dum had wings. Why then did it fall like a flightless object into the chasm?

Sauron, represented as a red eye, resides at Barad-dur, but TTT claims that 'Now the orc-tower was right above him, frowning black, and in it the red eye glowed,' referring to Cirith Ungol.

C4ts, just because we don't believe in the literal truth of the Lord of the Rings, you shouldn't assume that we are as ignorant of it as you seem to be.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by phildonnia
How do you explain the numerous contradictions in the works of JRR Tolkein?

For example:

Tom Bombadil claims to be the "Eldest", but later Celeborn describes Treebeard as the "Eldest". Which is it?

In the book of FOTR, The Balrog at Khazad-dum had wings. Why then did it fall like a flightless object into the chasm?

Sauron, represented as a red eye, resides at Barad-dur, but TTT claims that 'Now the orc-tower was right above him, frowning black, and in it the red eye glowed,' referring to Cirith Ungol.

C4ts, just because we don't believe in the literal truth of the Lord of the Rings, you shouldn't assume that we are as ignorant of it as you seem to be.

Well, clearly Tom Bombadil and Treebeard are one in the same.

As for the Balrog and Sauron, your naturalistic fundamentalist biases are showing. After all, it could be that Sauron DECEIVED the Company of the Ring into thinking the Balrog had wings so they wouldn't push him into the chasm and only a naturalist fundamentalist would think that Suaron couldn't be at BOTH Barad-Dur and Cirith Ungol. Sauron is deceitful and uses logic and reason as traps for the unwary.

Don't let liberal, tree-hugging, politcally correct Tolkein Scholars dissuade you from the TRUTH of Tolkeins message.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by phildonnia
How do you explain the numerous contradictions in the works of JRR Tolkein?

For example:

Tom Bombadil claims to be the "Eldest", but later Celeborn describes Treebeard as the "Eldest". Which is it?

In the book of FOTR, The Balrog at Khazad-dum had wings. Why then did it fall like a flightless object into the chasm?

Sauron, represented as a red eye, resides at Barad-dur, but TTT claims that 'Now the orc-tower was right above him, frowning black, and in it the red eye glowed,' referring to Cirith Ungol.

C4ts, just because we don't believe in the literal truth of the Lord of the Rings, you shouldn't assume that we are as ignorant of it as you seem to be.

Middle Earth has a place for those who mock the LORD (of the Rings)!

[Zombified]

Originally posted by phildonnia
How do you explain the numerous contradictions in the works of JRR Tolkein?
Heretic.

Tom Bombadil claims to be the "Eldest", but later Celeborn describes Treebeard as the "Eldest". Which is it?

Treebeard is the eldest of the ents. Ents are not even older than the elves themselves, because they were created for Yavanna after the creation of the Dwarves by Aule was discovered, at the same time the giant Eagles were created for Manwe. Treebeard is incidentally older than Celeborn but possibly not Galadriel.

Bombadil is a bit of an oddity in the books; there is no really good explanation for him anywhere. Presumably he is one of the ainur but not as closely related to the Valar as the maiar.
In the book of FOTR, The Balrog at Khazad-dum had wings. Why then did it fall like a flightless object into the chasm?

Hit a bird with magic sword and see how well it flies. Actually, I believe there is some controversy on the whole wing subject; it is taken for granted by artists, but IIRC the text is not clear on this point.
Sauron, represented as a red eye, resides at Barad-dur, but TTT claims that 'Now the orc-tower was right above him, frowning black, and in it the red eye glowed,' referring to Cirith Ungol.This refers metaphorically to Sauron's evil will, which permeates all of Mordor, and was particularly noticable as an omnipresent force to the Ringbearers.

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by Zombified
Bombadil is a bit of an oddity in the books; there is no really good explanation for him anywhere. Presumably he is one of the ainur but not as closely related to the Valar as the maiar

My own opinion is that he is actually the Vala Aule, but not to the extent that I would hijack this thread over it. Oh, what the heck, this thread was a joke anyway.

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by Zombified

Hit a bird with magic sword and see how well it flies. Actually, I believe there is some controversy on the whole wing subject; it is taken for granted by artists, but IIRC the text is not clear on this point.


Because one pedant deserves another ;-),

Take a look at the Silmarillion. Later scraps that were redacted in have the balrogs "flying over the plains." It seems as if Tolkein through the course of his creation ascribed the ability to fly to them. The text in question at Khazad-dum has shadows and smoke stretching out like great wings. There is also an issue of size, etc.

If anything, I think Tolkien would not like the Balrogs we think of today, since he was adamant that nothing in his books was allegorical or had any reference to Christianity, other than "good vs. evil". The depictions we see would have smacked too much of the Christian vision of Satan or a devil, which I think he would have avoided.

Just as a note, delving into the metaphysics of Tolkien's reality outside what is explicitly said in the trilogy and the hobbit is just as frustrating as trying to draw anything from the Bible. Something inside me tells that this is no coincidence...

[Zombified]

Originally posted by Gestahl
Because one pedant deserves another ;-),
Inevitably the case in these situations...

Take a look at the Silmarillion. Later scraps that were redacted in have the balrogs "flying over the plains." It seems as if Tolkein through the course of his creation ascribed the ability to fly to them. The text in question at Khazad-dum has shadows and smoke stretching out like great wings. There is also an issue of size, etc.

If anything, I think Tolkien would not like the Balrogs we think of today, since he was adamant that nothing in his books was allegorical or had any reference to Christianity, other than "good vs. evil". The depictions we see would have smacked too much of the Christian vision of Satan or a devil, which I think he would have avoided.

If I recall correctly, the description of the Balrog was something Tolkein struggled with. I agree it probably wasn't really his intent to have the balrog just be a big devil.
Just as a note, delving into the metaphysics of Tolkien's reality outside what is explicitly said in the trilogy and the hobbit is just as frustrating as trying to draw anything from the Bible. Something inside me tells that this is no coincidence... Well, in the case of the Lord Of The Rings, exegesis is more fun and nobody gets burned at the stake.

Fortunately, we also have the various revisions and letters to help...

[EdipisReks]

personally, i think Tom Bombadil was an aspect of the Libido of Blibo. he was a hearty, ruddy, lusty soul, afterall.

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by EdipisReks
personally, i think Tom Bombadil was an aspect of the Libido of Blibo. he was a hearty, ruddy, lusty soul, afterall.

Hmm... Tom Bombadilibidobilbo?