This Ain't Good

[Pyrrho]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2874635.stm


Turkey has said it will send troops into northern Iraq, despite opposition from the US.
The BBC correspondent in Turkey says there are reports that Turkish troops will cross the border within a few hours.

[My Final Spider]

CNN's reporting that they already have.

Uh oh.

[Denise]

Question to the forum.

Will Kurdistan become a nation after this is all done? Does anyone forsee this? Thanks.

[Pyrrho]

No future for Kurdistan IMO, not with Turkey sending troops. Things just got a helluva lot more complicated.

[Denise]

Originally posted by pyrrho2000
No future for Kurdistan IMO, not with Turkey sending troops. Things just got a helluva lot more complicated.

What are the pros and cons of the UN carving out Northern Iraq for a new nation of Kurdistan? Would it be viewed by the Arab world in the same way as Israel? Thanks for your replies. Not clear on this whole issue.

[My Final Spider]

I think - and my memory stinks, so beware - that the Kurds have already carved out a nation in all but name in northern Iraq. The Kurds control everything up there, which makes Turkey nervous because ... I don't remember why. Maybe they have a restless Kurd population?

Before we get all panicky, let's remember that Turkey said they wanted to move into northern Iraq to curtail the flood of expected refugees. They made this request weeks ago, and it has been what has held them up from giving us support, because we denied their request.

In 1991, Turkey was overwhelmed with refugees.

[Denise]

Wouldn't having a nation of Kurds help Turkey? Many of the Kurds would then move there? Or are they afraid that it would be a threat to them?

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Denise
Wouldn't having a nation of Kurds help Turkey? Many of the Kurds would then move there? Or are they afraid that it would be a threat to them?
I think the problem may be that Turkey has a Kurdish population of its own, and a new nation of Kurds may also want to take a portion of Turkey with them.

[Jim Lennox]

The Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul had earlier announced that troops would move into the Kurdish-controlled north to stop an influx of refugees into Turkey and to prevent what he called "terrorist activity".

Link. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2874635.stm)

Now we start to see other countries making up big name badges with terrorist written on them before invading another country.

What will Bush do to the Turks if they start killing Iraqi kurds?

Edited to add link.

[My Final Spider]

Originally posted by Jim Lennox
What will Bush do to the Turks if they start killing Iraqi kurds?

Fire on them, it appears. Bush I almost did the same thing in 1991 when the Turks got rowdy.

[Jim Lennox]

But the turks are only trying to prevent their country from 'terrorists'. I bet they have really good evidence and that.

[no one in particular]

This (http://www.crisisweb.org/projects/showreport.cfm?reportid=923) report is quite pertinent to this discussion. I find this group’s reports to be extremely thorough and educational. Unlike many critical groups the ICG offers excellent analysis and sound suggestions.

Quoteage follows:

Assuming the U.S.-led war in Iraq proceeds, the threat of a violent eruption in Northern Iraq between Kurds and Turks is very great. At the heart of all conflict scenarios the city of Kirkuk is key. If war goes ahead, to avoid an explosion in the north the United States must urgently take three important steps: get its own forces to Kirkuk first; ensure that Turkey continues to exercise restraint; and simultaneously persuade the Iraqi Kurds to take no action that will risk provoking Turkey. For the sake of peace and stability in a future Iraq, achieving a negotiated solution that guarantees the Iraqi Kurds a substantial degree of autonomy and a real role in the central government should be an absolute priority for the U.S.

[Jim Lennox]

Time for some more international diplomacy, Mr Bush. Do you think you can manage it?

Oh no, he doesn't read these boards does he? Probably over at Survival Science.

[fidiot]

The plot thickens.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Segnosaur

I think the problem may be that Turkey has a Kurdish population of its own, and a new nation of Kurds may also want to take a portion of Turkey with them.

Indeed -

http://home.achilles.net/~sal/icons/kurdistan-map.jpg

[Smalso]

Turkish troops are there mainly to see to it that the Kurds don't try to set up a separate nation. Turkey doesn't like the Kurds any more than Saddam does. (Did?)

[Roadtoad]

If I had to guess, given what was on the map, Turkey is moving in to prevent the formation of a Kurdish state. An independent Kurdistan takes a huge chunk out of Turkey, as well as Iraq and Iran.

I don't see American forces firing on Turkish forces. We've already shown our hand when it comes to the Kurds. With friends like us, the Kurds don't need enemies. It this sort of activity that fuels Al Quaeda.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Denise
Wouldn't having a nation of Kurds help Turkey? Many of the Kurds would then move there? Or are they afraid that it would be a threat to them?

turkey is worried that if the kurds get their hands on some oil wells, they will be able to set up a viable state. If that happens, then the kurdish areas in Turkey will have some real backing to agitate for a separate state within Turkey.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


turkey is worried that if the kurds get their hands on some oil wells, they will be able to set up a viable state. If that happens, then the kurdish areas in Turkey will have some real backing to agitate for a separate state within Turkey.

Hey, AUP. Missed reading your posts!

That's part of the issue, the notion of a separate state within Turkey. But I would suspect there's more, perhaps religiously based. I'm not as well versed on this as I should be. Any word on the differences between the Kurds and their views on Islam, and those of the greater body of Turkish believers?

[muckraker]

The Kurds are Sunni Moslems. Ethnically and culturally, they are closer to Iran than to Turkey or Iraq. Historically, they were a society of nomadic shepherds, living under the rule of whoever dominated the area at the time; there has never been any real independant Kurdish state.

Turkey has had problems with Kurd separatists within it's own borders since WWI. As a result the Turks have tried to suppress Kurdish culture.

The Turks are afraid that an independant Kurdish nation on Turkey's border will encourage, support, or inspire Turkey's own Kurds to gain independence.

Turkey has said repeatedly that it will not tolerate an independant Kurdish State in what is now northern Iraq. That is probably part of the reason they refused to let US troops invade Iraq through Turkey. Turkey wants to be able to call the shots in northern Iraq.

However, since Gulf War 1, The Kurds have lived in in the protection of the northern no-flight zone, and they have essentially set up an unofficial independant and democratic nation.

In effect, the Iraqi Kurds have set up the only democracy in the Arab world. But the the US intends to maintain the current borders of Iraq, meaning that the Iraqi Kurds will be forced to join the new Iraq, whether they want to or not.

The Kurds have been screwed throughout history by the British, the Turks, and by Saddam. Now it's our turn to scew them.

[DrBenway]

A major issue concerning the Kurdish region is water. The Tigris and Euphrates originate in eastern Turkey. Turkey is in the process of putting up several more dams, which may drop the water levels in both rivers substantially. If Turkey goes forward with its development plans, both Syria and Iraq won't have enough water for their current needs, let alone their future needs.

Syria has been in a cold war with Turkey over this issue for several years. Syria has been funding the Kurdish separatist movement, which pisses Turkey off greatly.

A source of info:
http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/tigris.htm