Attending an Alpha course?

[egslim]

Lately I've been talking to an extremely religious girl. She's part of the "protestant: meeting of believers" group - at least, that's the translation, we're from Holland. She's also a creationist and actively tries to spread the faith.
I, on the other hand, used to be an agnost, read the Bible, then turned atheïst. Setting the scene, so to speak.
Our discussions have been almost exclusively about faith. The remarkable thing is that they've been very good. There is mutual respect and we're able to really talk about stingy topics. Admittedly, most of the credit goes to her. I ask some pretty difficult questions, but she always tries very hard to answer them and is honest enough to admit not having an answer. Instead of just blowing a lot of smoke. She yesterday also wondered why it was she never asked those questions herself - not that she should, of course. ;)

Anyway, she would really like me to attend an Alpha course. This is for people who like to learn more about her faith. According to her, the people there are much better able to answer my questions.
Since she's been a good sport, I would like to do her that favor, except for two worries:
1) I'd be putting myself at a serious disadvantage. I don't know the form of those meetings, but in general the chairman/speakers have a far better position than someone from the public. Also, I would expect to stand pretty much alone. Not to mention the lack of resources like the Sceptics Annotated Bible.
2) Call me cynical, but I really don't expect those people to be as honest as this girl. I don't think they would ever admit not having an answer, but just blow a lot of smoke and throw out lots of logical fallacy's. Cleaning up another ones mess is far more time consuming than creating it, expecially if you're outnumbered.

It's not like I'm affraid to go into an argument I could lose, but this could be like fighting a Judo match with multiple opponents and one leg tied behind my back...
At the very least, attending would mean preparing a list of tough questions and taking some resources along.

So, who has an opinion about this? Any advice is apreciated. :)

[c4ts]

You don't always have to fight back, but if you want to, you don't need a bunch of external resources to do so. That's what critical thinking is all about. Usually it's not hard to spot a flaw or logical fallacy if you just pay attention.

[Anathema]

I'd say "choose your battles". You have a lot of options, short of a total frontal attack on their beliefs.

You could, for instance, simply use the event as an observation and learning experience; taking mental notes on the arguments, but not trying to vigorously rebut every one of them.

You could also prepare yourself as you would for a formal debate --- diagram some anticipated arguments, and have some prepared responses or follow-up questions ready for the most obvious examples.

Keep in mind that these people will be 100% invested in their beliefs, and will take offense if you corner them, or you refuse to believe their ultimatum one-liners. If you wish to avoid creating a sensitive situation with your friend, you may want to set a time limit on how long you will stay -- or you could find yourself subjected to hours of inescapable circular logic.

[Dragonrock]

I don't know about your friend's church, but if hers is anything like the fundamental churches here then I would advise against you going. It is not a fair fight. You will be tag-teamed and hounded. Any hesitation on your part will be taken as agreement. Every time you say "I don't know" they will say "Well, God does." They attempt to break down your resistance until you are exausted then, when you're too tired to think straight, they show you how happy everyone is on their side of the fence. If you choose to join them then they will give you almost constant attention for weeks or months until you can't imagine how you got along without them.

You aren't going to change the mind of anyone at the course and I suspect that isn't your goal. If you want to go for your friend then tell her there are some ground rules: She must be present with you for the entire course, you will only speak to one person at a time, you maintain the right to renege on any life-changing decisions, and if you say "I don't know" she must be willing to listen to you when you've had a chance to research after the course.

Either way, good luck and if your friend is open minded enough to listen to you without getting angry then you might be able to lead her to the freedom that skepticism can bring.

[egslim]

As I already told her, I'm very easy to convert. Just let God perform a simple miracle. Under proper conditions and observations from several people like James Randi, of course. ;) How having faith changes one is really irrelevant, since for example drugs have the same effect.

Usually it's not hard to spot a flaw or logical fallacy if you just pay attention.
True, but for these people a statement like "the Bible is perfect" is an axiom. You really need some hard facts to effectively break through that.

You could, for instance, simply use the event as an observation and learning experience; taking mental notes on the arguments, but not trying to vigorously rebut every one of them.
True, and we could discuss those points one-on-one afterwards.

Keep in mind that these people will be 100% invested in their beliefs, and will take offense if you corner them, or you refuse to believe their ultimatum one-liners. If you wish to avoid creating a sensitive situation with your friend, you may want to set a time limit on how long you will stay -- or you could find yourself subjected to hours of inescapable circular logic.
You're right. I fear most people there won't be able to handle my questions the way she did. And I'd like the discussions' temperature to stay low, at least with her around. The time limit is also a good idea.

They attempt to break down your resistance until you are exausted
Don't worry, I'd go into "bugger-off" mode long before that. Could take an overvolted catleprod with me, though. :D

You aren't going to change the mind of anyone at the course and I suspect that isn't your goal.
Well, considering those meetings are also intended for people sitting on the fence, certain questions might provoke some scepticism in them.

I don't know what kind of ground rules are possible. Some questions have come up, which she didn't have an answer to. I could ask the same ones there, under the condition I get straight answers, from one person at a time. On the other hand, these people probably don't think logically about their faith. So, making them understand the definition of a "straight answer" might take too much time.
I'm thinking, would it be a better idea to formulate these questions in a short list and have my friend try to get the answers from such a meeting? I think she understands the criteria needed for an answer to be useful to me. At the same time, it would put her into an interesting position.

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by egslim
I'm thinking, would it be a better idea to formulate these questions in a short list and have my friend try to get the answers from such a meeting? I think she understands the criteria needed for an answer to be useful to me. At the same time, it would put her into an interesting position.

They would probably take the list away from her and tell her that it is Satan trying to make her doubt her faith.

[MLynn]

egslim, I'm a Christian, but have never attended Alpha, so I don't necessarily recommend it.

You can private message TwoShanks and ask him about the experience he had last year. It was traumatic for him and he had to sort some things out for himself.

The girl you've been talking to may be reasonable, but beware of Christians "seeking souls."

Be true to yourself.

Edited to correct grammar...

[egslim]

All in all, the prospect of attending such a meeting doesn't sound very attractive. Though I do think these people are less extreme than those from Dragonrocks experience.

Thanks everyone!

[agnostic_god]

I wouldn't go because there is no point and nothing that can be accomplished. On the one side, an agnostic/atheist doesn't "believe" anything and as such has nothing to prove. On the other side, religion by definition is based on faith, so there is nothing that they can offer as evidence to support their beliefs, and anything that you say that is contrary to their belief system can be dismissed out of hand.

It would just be an exercise in frustration for all concerned.

[Kitty Chan]

Egslim

My sister in law was an alpha host, and if you had gone to her house it would have been a great time, your sides would have hurt from laughing. I think a lot depends on the personality of the host and if they are perhaps like the girl you like.

As I understand it’s a informal thing and supposed to be relaxed, if they tie you to the couch and grill you all night then report them to the pastor. If you have questions why don’t you write them down and if they cant answer them then they can get back to you.

If you approach it the same way as you do with the girl you will at least get a nice supper and have an interesting evening. Ask your girl if she knows them and if they are like her (open to discussing harder questions) and tell her straight out you are not interested in getting ganged up on. Then she will know where you are coming from cause its understandable.

Go relax, eat have fun, its not supposed to be dreary, I think that was the whole point of the thing.
:)

[richardm]

There's a bit of discussion about the UK version of the Alpha Course here. (http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8974.htm)

Here's the course itself:
http://www.alpha.org.uk/3minutealpha/index.htm

I was right: the Alpha Course does involve the temporary physical isolation of their marks into a controlled environment -- which they call "The Weekend." They also describe extremely persuasive indoctrination at the hands of people who have been specially trained to deal with various forms of resistance to the technique.


Oo-er!

[Dragonrock]

Richard, that sounds like what I was talking about. There isn't any tying people to chairs, just non-stop questions until your brain is fried.

[RamblingOnwards]

If you're doing this for the purpose of discussing it with your girlfriend, I would suggest that you step back from the logical fallacies and keep track of the emotive techniques they may use:

- "You can feel in your heart..."
(most people are suggestive enough that if you ask them to pause and see if they can feel in their heart that something good/bad/whatever is happening, they will say yes)

- "We are under constant attack from..."
(two main purposes here, one is that this paranoia gives people a strong sense of community bonding and superiority, the second that it makes any other point of view untrustworthy)

- "I needed a ..., and I prayed and recieved it."
(...and don't you want to be one of the cool kids too? Also, promise of reward without work)

- love bombing
(excessive 'unconditional' acceptance as long us you join in)

- tricks with music, lighting, time of day, quantity of food, etc.

She (and they) might be unaware that these techniques are forms of brainwashing that will work regardless of their message, and might be open to seeing these things as 'cheating' without taking it as an attack on her faith.

The important thing regardless is to stay emotionally uninvolved. Don't have anything invested in convincing them - go in as a curious observer looking to see why they believe what they believe. Be honestly interested and respectful of their motivations - it might be absurd that they don't believe in evolution, but there's nothing absurd in the desire to feel loved.

[AtheistArchon]

- Being cynical about this sort of thing, you should take my advice with a grain of salt. (I've grown into a pretty grim and hardassed atheist in the past couple of years, I'm sorry to say.) My two cents, however...

- I've never actually heard of an "Alpha" course before now, which is a little surprising since I make a hobby out of atheism/theism/Christian apologetics. But now that I have, I see it's a type of apologetics workshop. I don't know if it's specifically designed to capture skeptics or if it's geared towards the already-faithful... my guess would be both, as needs dictate. And that's something you should keep in mind, IMO: it's designed to capture skeptics. It's an evangelism tool. Fallback position if there are no skeptics would be to reinforce the beliefs of those present. There's absolutely no doubt that they'll lay the typical arguments on, and thick.

- If you go, I would take the following stances and adhere to them, um, well, religiously:

1. I'm not a Christian yet, so I don't believe in god, heaven or hell, or even the devil. Convince me there's something I need to be "saved" from without me needing to feign belief in the first place. This will deter most people who want to argue via hellfire or sin. The old sell me the sickness, then sell me the cure bit.

2. I know via empiricism that dead bodies decay. Three days time is more than enough to render vital organs useless and liquified. Convince me that there's a good reason to believe that this process was somehow suspended in the case of Jesus, and remember that I'm not a Christian yet. Stops most arguments via the resurrection... "but Jesus died for you!!!!1". Remember ad populum, and remember that there are tons of other fables out there with just as much evidence as the resurrection.

3. Whose fault was it that Eve committed original sin? What did the fruit of the tree of knowledge do to her, and why did god put it there in the first place? Spins Christians around in Tazmanian-Devil-like circles. If they say the whole thing is a parable, then ask them why Jesus had to be sacrificed.

- Most of all, think long and hard about what your friend may take away from this... will she be upset when you don't convert? Whether she knows it or not, is she asking you to go in order to put you in a position where you're forced to bring out the big guns? If she's as level-headed as you say, then all may be well. I personally would go, but that's just because I'd relish the confrontation. :D I'm not sure I'd bring someone I cared about if they were on the fence.

- Then again, it could turn out to be perfectly nice and not too many low-blows. I kinda doubt it though. Like I said, I'm cynical.

[egslim]

This is turning out far more interesting than I thought. What I wonder about is this: Normal reasoning tells me that if one understands the coërcive techniques that may be used, then they will have little to no effect. For example, if you know it was simple electricity that knocked you back, you won't see such a demonstration as an argument in favor of God.
On the other hand, when using the same reasoning for hard drugs it falls completely apart. There is obviously a limit to the amount of control ones reasoning has over ones emotions.

I tried to find the Alpha Course Training Manual, but unfortunately no luck. I did find a .pdf explaining how to set up such a course. It explains how taking the whole weekend instead of a just day is far more effective. Which makes sense from a coërcive point of view, but not from a reasoning one.
The intensity obviously depends on the implementers, but it is indeed clear what the inventors intended.
Also, the suggested topics in the .pdf include absolutely no reasoning whatsoever. Just a lot of assumptions and huggy-feely.

Btw, she's not my girlfriend. ;)

I personally would go, but that's just because I'd relish the confrontation. I'm not sure I'd bring someone I cared about if they were on the fence.

- Then again, it could turn out to be perfectly nice and not too many low-blows. I kinda doubt it though. Like I said, I'm cynical.
This describes my position pretty good! And with some fence-sitters present, it might actually make a difference - or just be a fun challenge. But that really depends on the kind of opposition there.

As a side-note, I must confess I am getting slightly emotionally involved. Not about wanting to convert anyone. But talking to her, trying to understand her, I sense a kind of fear in her.
Last night we had a talk about the bible, I tried to show to her it's not a perfect book and how this is natural, since it has been the responsibility of (sinning) mankind for a long time.
Basically she's really scared to death what even discussing the possibility of imperfections in the bible will do to her relation with God. Not to mention actually admitting them...
It just sucks talking to an otherwise nice and bright girl, who is so scared (because of me, no less), without being able to reach out and help.
The good part is, after we said "bye", she told me how she really enjoyed it and how there was nothing left of her.
Now I promised her to show some examples of bible errors, so she can judge them for herself. The Sceptics Annotated Bible is very handy.

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by egslim

Anyway, she would really like me to attend an Alpha course. This is for people who like to learn more about her faith. According to her, the people there are much better able to answer my questions.
Since she's been a good sport, I would like to do her that favor, except for two worries:
1) I'd be putting myself at a serious disadvantage. I don't know the form of those meetings, but in general the chairman/speakers have a far better position than someone from the public. Also, I would expect to stand pretty much alone. Not to mention the lack of resources like the Sceptics Annotated Bible.
2) Call me cynical, but I really don't expect those people to be as honest as this girl. I don't think they would ever admit not having an answer, but just blow a lot of smoke and throw out lots of logical fallacy's. Cleaning up another ones mess is far more time consuming than creating it, expecially if you're outnumbered.


Slim,

There is no way this will end well... either:

1) You win and call some bluffs, make yourself look like an ass to everyone else involved, possibly pissing off your friend (plus, she will get grief from the group from bringing you there). I don't care how honest, simple, and non-confrontational you are (trust me).

2) You win and your friend starts to agree with you. Then you get into even more problems with her former church/family, plus resentment over ending her love affair with Christ. Trust me, being someone who de-converts people will insure that they do not like you for a while afterwards (although they do come back with a thank you sometimes).

3) Your questions are ignored, and you just look argumentative. You simply get frustrated, and waste yours and others time.

4) You lose, they go along with the meeting, nothing changes with anyone there and you waste a few hours.

Sorry to be cynical, but I have tried it, and no outcome is good. I highly advise against it. Evertime I have tried it, it was frustrating and useless at best, and completely detrimental to what I wanted to accomplish at worst.

That being said, maybe these people are different from the ones I have tried to deal with (Alabama is generally not a good arena for this ;-). Best of luck.

[agnostic_god]

What Gestahl said.

[egslim]

I don't care how honest, simple, and non-confrontational you are (trust me).
Well, I wouldn't consider myself non-confrontational anyway. :p

Fortunately, these people are pretty rare here. Also, I don't know the people around her, nor could I care less about how they feel about me. So that makes things a lot easier. But I do think you're right about going there, the topics discussed don't seem to involve any logical reasoning at all.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by egslim
.

Btw, she's not my girlfriend. ;)

As a side-note, I must confess I am getting slightly emotionally involved. Not about wanting to convert anyone. But talking to her, trying to understand her, I sense a kind of fear in her.
Last night we had a talk about the bible, I tried to show to her it's not a perfect book and how this is natural, since it has been the responsibility of (sinning) mankind for a long time.
Basically she's really scared to death what even discussing the possibility of imperfections in the bible will do to her relation with God. Not to mention actually admitting them...
It just sucks talking to an otherwise nice and bright girl, who is so scared (because of me, no less), without being able to reach out and help.
The good part is, after we said "bye", she told me how she really enjoyed it and how there was nothing left of her.
Now I promised her to show some examples of bible errors, so she can judge them for herself. The Sceptics Annotated Bible is very handy.

From a girls view maybe what shes scared about is not what you suppose, maybe shes scared of losing you. Are you coming across harsh from her point of view? Girls worry about more than you think, and angles you dont think about.

Im going to email my sister in law who has hosted these alpha courses and find out what supposed to go on. If its supposed to be a relaxed event then why is everyone on the edge about it?

Once again do not assume her "fear" is that God or the bible may be proven wrong, its best not to assume anything in life.

:)

[egslim]

I do feel flattered! :)

But I don't think so. She actually mentioned that she wasn't even sure it was allowed for her to discuss the possibility of errors in the bible.
And how God had already given her so much and she wouldn't dare test him by trying to find errors in de Bible.

[RamblingOnwards]

And how God had already given her so much and she wouldn't dare test him by trying to find errors in de Bible.

A good come back for this is:
"Now, is it God who is going to be upset when you figure out that Preacher Joe wasn't telling the truth about Him, or is it Preacher Joe that is going to be upset?"

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by egslim
I do feel flattered! :)

But I don't think so. She actually mentioned that she wasn't even sure it was allowed for her to discuss the possibility of errors in the bible.
And how God had already given her so much and she wouldn't dare test him by trying to find errors in de Bible.

I am a christian and yes its ok to discuss possibility of errors in the bible, tell her to think about the conversations Jesus had, there was a lot of questioning and tests from various groups on a ongoing basis. Same for His followers.

As for testing God ask Her to read about Gideon he tested God.

Im glad your flattered and you never know, ;) why dont you both meet each other half way. Then at least in the end you both will know why you believe what you do.

I will get back to you about the Alpha thing cause now IM interested if there is validity to what is said.

[egslim]

A good come back for this is:
"Now, is it God who is going to be upset when you figure out that Preacher Joe wasn't telling the truth about Him, or is it Preacher Joe that is going to be upset?"
That wouldn't work, she believes she's got a personal relationship with God, and has studied the Bible herself.
I did explain to her how mankind has already corrupted everything perfect God ever gave us (the environment, for example), so what makes it likely the same didn't happen to the Bible. Especially since it was looked after exclusively by catholics for about a 1000 years... And how I could easily corrupt the book myself, by selling cheap versions with some minor changes.
She understood the logic - which made her feel rather uncomfortable - but just couldn't accept the idea that it might be possible.
As for testing God ask Her to read about Gideon he tested God
Sorry, that's not what I meant. She feels testing the Bible would be a direct challenge to God. And is affraid of what might happen.

I would be very curious to find out if the Alpha Course Training Manual actually contains those psychological coërsion techniques discussed in this thread. Though they would probably be called something less threatening.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by egslim
That wouldn't work, she believes she's got a personal relationship with God, and has studied the Bible herself.
I did explain to her how mankind has already corrupted everything perfect God ever gave us (the environment, for example), so what makes it likely the same didn't happen to the Bible.

Sorry, that's not what I meant. She feels testing the Bible would be a direct challenge to God. And is affraid of what might happen.

I would be very curious to find out if the Alpha Course Training Manual actually contains those psychological coërsion techniques discussed in this thread. Though they would probably be called something less threatening.

There is nothing wrong with testing God thats why I mentioned Gideon and that he did. Gods not going to smote her for questioning Him, you can even be mad at God. Tell her to think of it this way, we get mad at our family, parents, friends and if they are sincere they will forgive. So how much more will God forgive? Was it not seventy times seven that He told us to forgive.

Not to confuse this with judgements (cause I know someone will bring up smoting). That does not apply to what shes wondering at this point.

As for Alpha, I know one thing for sure that she, nor I nor the host of the Alpha, pope, guy on the street not one can convince you of belief in God. Not even God can force you. All can pose arguements, ideas, etc. but like the old saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.

But I will see what I can find out about Alpha regardless.

[Ladewig]

After reading the thread, I've decided that I'd love to watch a Scientology team go up against an Alpha team.

[egslim]

There is nothing wrong with testing God thats why I mentioned Gideon and that he did. Gods not going to smote her for questioning Him, you can even be mad at God. Tell her to think of it this way, we get mad at our family, parents, friends and if they are sincere they will forgive. So how much more will God forgive? Was it not seventy times seven that He told us to forgive.
Good points, I'll bring them up to her. It seems to me like your relationship with God is based on love and confidence, while hers is based on fear and uncertainty.

All can pose arguements, ideas, etc. but like the old saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.
I disagree somewhat. If you take a person who's at a vulnerable point in his/her life, maybe someone close just died, or there's a new job or something. Then you could isolate them from friends, and really demolish their self-confidence. When that is done, offer them a way out by converting to the True Religion (tm). Tadaa: New believer!

[Filip Sandor]

Originally posted by egslim
Lately I've been talking to an extremely religious girl. She's part of the "protestant: meeting of believers" group - at least, that's the translation, we're from Holland. She's also a creationist and actively tries to spread the faith.
I, on the other hand, used to be an agnost, read the Bible, then turned atheïst. Setting the scene, so to speak.
Our discussions have been almost exclusively about faith. The remarkable thing is that they've been very good. There is mutual respect and we're able to really talk about stingy topics. Admittedly, most of the credit goes to her. I ask some pretty difficult questions, but she always tries very hard to answer them and is honest enough to admit not having an answer. Instead of just blowing a lot of smoke. She yesterday also wondered why it was she never asked those questions herself - not that she should, of course. ;)

Anyway, she would really like me to attend an Alpha course. This is for people who like to learn more about her faith. According to her, the people there are much better able to answer my questions.
Since she's been a good sport, I would like to do her that favor, except for two worries:
1) I'd be putting myself at a serious disadvantage. I don't know the form of those meetings, but in general the chairman/speakers have a far better position than someone from the public. Also, I would expect to stand pretty much alone. Not to mention the lack of resources like the Sceptics Annotated Bible.
2) Call me cynical, but I really don't expect those people to be as honest as this girl. I don't think they would ever admit not having an answer, but just blow a lot of smoke and throw out lots of logical fallacy's. Cleaning up another ones mess is far more time consuming than creating it, expecially if you're outnumbered.

It's not like I'm affraid to go into an argument I could lose, but this could be like fighting a Judo match with multiple opponents and one leg tied behind my back...
At the very least, attending would mean preparing a list of tough questions and taking some resources along.

So, who has an opinion about this? Any advice is apreciated. :)

Hi egslim,

It's funny that I saw your post because I just attended an Alpha course today for the first time ever. I must say that it is not nearly as intimidating as I thought it might be and I had the same concerns you mentioned about being outnumbered and everyone being like-minded in their avoidance of the truth or logic, etc.

Turns out it was alright, but mabye that's because I got to sit with some young people and of course, young people are always more open to debate and usually enjoy it too. There was a lot of young people there, which must be because a lot of young people are looking for direction these days and it just happened to reflect in the numbers there. Anyway, long story made short I went with a buddy and it was basically for fun. I thought there would be an opportunity there to debate so I thought why not, maybe I might learn a thing or two at the same time. The evening starts off with a cheap or free meal (really good home cooked food, so don't feel bad about eating it, it's there for people to eat, just make sure you express how good the food is). The show usually kicks off with a speaker making everyone feel comfortable, etc. and welcoming them. Then there might be a song or something like that, you don't have to sing, just sit and listen that's what I did. After that you might see a video or listen to a speaker as an introduction to the "topic" of Christianity and what it means to be Christian with some basic outlines describing the faith. It's a decent, quick intro that tells you the basics of being a Christian.

Now comes the good part, you're probably going to be sitting at a table with people, these are all strangers of course, which make it that much more interesting because you're not dealing with your buddy's or people you know, someone fresh and you needn't worry about acting a certain way. You can just be polite. This is where there is usually a short session maybe lasting about 20-30 minutes or whatever where you can discuss what you heard with the people at your table and ask questions. Since you would be going with a friend it's a real bonus because you're not alone. I struck a few interesting questions myself and got some interesting answers. My questions were aimed 'below the belt', but I expressed them in a way like I was really curious, which I guess I was in a way since I didn't ask the typical stupid questions about why God grants life to the subjects he knows he will send to eternal damnation, etc. (Any intelligent individual should avoid asking such questions to a bunch of Christians anyway.) I suggest if you want to get anywhere with your questions that you keep in mind you are dealing with regular folks who don't know that much. Your goal should be to observe their response, not block them in and destroy theif faith. Obviously you can't do that, so there is no point in trying, rather try and be creative in what you ask.

Hope that helps and hope you enjoy it if you go. :)

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by egslim
IThen you could isolate them from friends, and really demolish their self-confidence. When that is done, offer them a way out by converting to the True Religion (tm). Tadaa: New believer!

Just to be clear this does work to some extent for sure, but one difference with Christianity is God wants one to grow and learn and come away from the initial "feelings". So one generally doesnt stay in that place. Like finding a spouse when you first fall in love vrs being together for years the love grows to another kind of deeper love. (Also, theres the whole part about shallow and deep roots that cause growth.)

Now having said that I will agree and say that "man" is more stuborn than the average mule so some stay in permanent childhood forever and refuse to grow in anything. I dont necessarily mean only faith theres knowledge, etc.


Filip thats interesting sorta what I imagined thank you for being honest. (I will still ask the sister in law though Im curious as she is a host or whatever they call them.)

[jimmygun]

I couldn't get into the Alpha course, it was all sold out. I am however enrolled in the Beta course and by this time next year will be a certified Master Beta!:D

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by jimmygun
I couldn't get into the Alpha course, it was all sold out. I am however enrolled in the Beta course and by this time next year will be a certified Master Beta!:D

You had to take a course? I consider myself self-taught.

(this is too good, I had to add it)

I figured that basically by definition you had to become a Master Beta on your own, without any help from others?

[Filip Sandor]

Originally posted by RamblingOnwards
If you're doing this for the purpose of discussing it with your girlfriend, I would suggest that you step back from the logical fallacies and keep track of the emotive techniques they may use:

- "You can feel in your heart..."
(most people are suggestive enough that if you ask them to pause and see if they can feel in their heart that something good/bad/whatever is happening, they will say yes)

- "We are under constant attack from..."
(two main purposes here, one is that this paranoia gives people a strong sense of community bonding and superiority, the second that it makes any other point of view untrustworthy)

- "I needed a ..., and I prayed and recieved it."
(...and don't you want to be one of the cool kids too? Also, promise of reward without work)

- love bombing
(excessive 'unconditional' acceptance as long us you join in)

- tricks with music, lighting, time of day, quantity of food, etc.

She (and they) might be unaware that these techniques are forms of brainwashing that will work regardless of their message, and might be open to seeing these things as 'cheating' without taking it as an attack on her faith.

The important thing regardless is to stay emotionally uninvolved. Don't have anything invested in convincing them - go in as a curious observer looking to see why they believe what they believe. Be honestly interested and respectful of their motivations - it might be absurd that they don't believe in evolution, but there's nothing absurd in the desire to feel loved.

Hey RO,

I noticed a lot of these things you mentioned when I went to the Alpha meeting yesterday. Something that particularly disappointed me was the atmousphere of the whole presentation, which felt as though it was everyone there was a believer and not surprisingly, most of the people were Christian also. So much of the "intellectual" discourse seemed focus more on the emotional benefits of being a "true Christian" rather than the surrounding facts.

Also, another thing I found very interesting was that the gentleman on the hour or so video seminar we watched seemed to emphasize contraversial 'historical events' such as Christ coming back from the dead as a source of 'facts we know' to build faith upon. I believe this was intentional on his part and he spoke with a lot of emotion about it in order to draw emphasis to it as reliable knowledge.

I would say that Christian community experiences a strong emotional bond amongst it's own members and I would even say it can be an emotionally enlightening experience to be amongst many Christians, but I am sorry to see the ones who are so confused in the light of the 'facts' about their religion. It seems that the more emotionally confused individuals tend to depend more on facts to prove the religion and their own faith and so these people try very hard to draw a definitive line about why they are Christian and almost appear as though they are trying to prove their faith to themselves when they are engaging in an intellectual discussion rather than to you. The best thing I find to do here is to simply acknowledge what they say and then ask someone else what their opinion is etc. Starting an argument with an emotionally distressed individual won't get you anywhere. I find the best ways to bring contradictions in the religion to the attention of the folks you are discussing with is indirectly, by asking questions which don't necessarily imply a contradiction, but do contain one (or more). You can build off of the first response you get and more into detail that way.

The question I asked was what did Jesus give up for us by dying on the cross? Elaborated a bit, how did he "accept the burden of Sin for all mankind" by dying on the cross? Since giving up a physical life to attain eternal bliss is obviously not much to give up considering the rewards of the afterlife, it raises some critical questions about why the death of Jesus is not considered as a symbolic act, but a Holy and divine gift from God.

Needless to say, there were a lot of interesting interpretations on this and I had to re-iterate the point of the question several times to keep the discussion from straying, but it was interesting nonetheless and nobody was offended, which absolutely KEY if you want to communicate your views on any contradictions you see in Christianity.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Filip Sandor
The question I asked was what did Jesus give up for us by dying on the cross? Elaborated a bit, how did he "accept the burden of Sin for all mankind" by dying on the cross? Since giving up a physical life to attain eternal bliss is obviously not much to give up considering the rewards of the afterlife, it raises some critical questions about why the death of Jesus is not considered as a symbolic act, but a Holy and divine gift from God.



Do you remember what the answer was? or if not the basic idea.

[Filip Sandor]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
Do you remember what the answer was? or if not the basic idea.

First of all, I think it is important to distinguish what I mean by Jesus' death being a "symbolic act". What I meant was that in the Christian view, Jesus' death has more than just a symbolic significance to the religion, but claims a position of a 'divine act'.

The answers to my question were varried and not all the people were equally receptive to the actual point of my question (there was about 7 people). The basic response was from the everyone was a reiteration of the fact that Jesus' died for us, that he took upon himself the burden of all of manking and what significance it holds for them that their Saviour did this for them. I made a few attempts to clarify the point of my question and give a chance for someone to answer, but nobody was able to give a direct answer and so I didn't press it any further.

My personal conclusion is that Jesus' death was simply in accord with his beliefs and he basically had no choice, but to die or admit to blasphemy. With respect to the question of what he "gave up" for the world, I think the answer to this question may require some digging into morality and meaning, which might naturally becomes more subjective as you delve deeper and different for everyone, but I don't doubt that there might be a pretty clear cut answer to this as well - it's hard t say for sure.

[Tom Morris]

We have discussed this course on a mailing list that I am a member of. It is pretty prevalent here in Britain, and various people I know have been on it. They say that at the beginning it starts of with a very questioning and calm session - let's just "look" at the ideas behind religion and the questions which faith can answer. By the third or fourth week, they are praying, singing hymns and generally having a church-service outside of church.

Would I go? Probably not. I spend enough time in the day arguing with theists and believers in weird stuff. I don't want to give up my evenings and weekends too.

[RamblingOnwards]

Originally posted by Filip Sandor
[B]I noticed a lot of these things you mentioned when I went to the Alpha meeting yesterday.

They work. From their point of view, it would be silly not to use them. It probably isn't malicious - I have known Christians who were horrified to discover they were generic pyschological tricks rather than techniques to 'open your heart to God'.

The question I asked was what did Jesus give up for us by dying on the cross?

There are a number of 'heresies' as to how human Jesus was, and therefore how much he gave up by dying:

Ebionism: He was a normal human until he died, at which point his 'reward' was divinity.

Docetism: He was fully diety, and his death was simply an illusion.

Nestorianism: The 'human part' ate, drank and later died, the 'divine part' simply told him what to do (Jesus as split personality)

The matter is very well debated historically. I find it sad that Christian scholarship is held in such low regard by Christians nowdays.

[TwoShanks]

Be very careful with it. The normal sessions generally came down to a session of me pointing out flaws and objections and then the rest of the people working the apologetics. Rather entertaining and with delicious free food.

As was mentioned before, the 'weekend' setting and people are contrived exactly to indoctrinate as many people as possible. They will probe you for the slightest of possible weaknesses and then pound that weakness until you crack. I was fortunate in that I had the people here on the forum to kickstart my brain again afterwards.

From the events I gained two things:
1. Better understanding of the mindset of 'true believers'.
2. Appreciation of my own mental cracks.

If you would like to discuss the matter further, feel free to PM me. Also I'm sure some of the other forumites will remember what happened with me, perhaps their opinions would be of use.

Alpha disgusts me.

[Nucular]

I attended what was called an Alpha course when I was an undergrad a few years ago, organised by the Christian Union of that uni, which several of my friends were members of.

I assume it was a 'proper' Alpha course (i.e. part of the franchise) but I don't know for sure.

I was invited after several interesting debates with said friends, who told me I could find "answers" there - that it was geared up for disbelievers, and could convert atheists.

I was quite excited, as I'd read in the paper about confirmed atheists being converted by the Alpha course, and I was quite prepared to listen properly and go along with whatever - I got quite a buzz from the thought that I might get brainwashed, weirdly, and the challenge of keepng rational in the face of whatever was presented.

I attended a few sessions (it wasn't a weekend thing, it was some evenings), and the basic gist was that each day had a topic (like, "why did God send His only Son to die for us?"), and began with a talk which basically set the parameters for the following discussion.

It was all very scriptural ("...but in Matthew we find clarification for this concept..."), and studiously avoided any of the big questions - I remember about 2 minutes being spent on "is there a God?", which was extremely glossed over. There was a lengthier bit on "did Jesus rise from the dead?", but this all came down to the basic premise that "four separate people say he did, so he did".

Breaking into discussion groups of about 7 or 8 people, with a 'discussion facilitator', we were supposed to discuss the topics presented, and generally continue to avoid big questions, keeping to minutiae.

I found you could crowbar in more interesting discussions by going for example "well look, this is interesting, but doesn't really mean much to me as I can't see the Gospels as historical documents - why do you think it is?", but as this was outside the remit, facilitators were unprepared, and steered discussion back, generally falling back on specific answers like "well, I can't answer that personally, but I bet there's some really good answers out there if you search" and "well I don't think there is an answer for that, but Jesus said to have faith".

I found that everyone else there was either a committed Christian already, or a bit of a lapsed one who had no problem with the idea of God's existence, Jesus being His son, the Bible being accurate, etc., and were there more, I think, from guilt at having lapsed than from wanting to have a deep discussion on "well, is it true though?". This meant that they were about as enthusiastic as the facilitator to go down my route of discussion, so there was quite a lot of subtle pressure to just shut up.

Bottom line: not for atheists or thinking agnostics, but for the vaguely religious to become more religious.

[egslim]

Thanks for your reply, TwoShanks. I find the mindset of 'true believers' really fascinating, especially because of the enormous hypocricy concerning selective bible-use.
Personally, my best defence against the carrot of any religion is asking myself the question: "Why would I convert to this religion, if it means certain damnation by a whole lot of other ones?"

Yeah, this girl told me those people would certainly have all the answers to my questions, but it seems to be more like throwing out all kinds of unwarrented assumptions.

[Beerina]

Originally posted by egslim
Lately I've been talking to an extremely religious girl.

So, who has an opinion about this? Any advice is apreciated. :)

Hmmm....that's a tough one. Lemme ask you: how hot is she?