What is the greatest virtue?

[jay gw]

Virtue
A particularly efficacious, good, or beneficial quality.

What is the greatest virtue that a man/woman can possess?

[Capsid]

What about respect? Respect for another person's view or way of life. Respect for the world we live in and our fellow occupants (that includes plants and animals).

[El Greco]

You can't answer that without determining a few other things, like what's your purpose in life. If your purpose is to compose music, then creativity ranks pretty high. If your purpose is to help others, then compassion is a candidate. Basically you have to define "greatest".

[TragicMonkey]

Empathy. Not necessarily acting on it, but at least trying to understand how someone else feels or sees something. It's the recognition that "I" is not necessarily more important than the rest of the population.

[Stitch]

A question asked of Merlin by King Arthur in Exchalibur and if I recall, the answer was "truth".

[jimmygun]

Originally posted by Stitch
A question asked of Merlin by King Arthur in Exchalibur and if I recall, the answer was "truth".

Stitch, come on. You weren't there! Paleese!:D

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Stitch
A question asked of Merlin by King Arthur in Exchalibur and if I recall, the answer was "truth".

Hmm. Merlin didn't mention the whole "not banging your own sister" as a virtue? I guess that's pretty low on the priority list, compared to "truth".

Of course, Morgaine had problems with both virtues.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by jimmygun
Stitch, come on. You weren't there! Paleese!:D

Not quite - but considering how many times I have seen that film you might think I had written it :D

[Stitch]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Hmm. Merlin didn't mention the whole "not banging your own sister" as a virtue? I guess that's pretty low on the priority list, compared to "truth".

Of course, Morgaine had problems with both virtues.

Well the question was posed in the context of which is the greatest virtue of a Knight. Besides Arthur hadn't been seduced by Morgana at that stage :D

[Piscivore]

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women"

Oops, sorry, wrong question. I pulled a Bush! :)

[Marquis de Carabas]

The greatest virtue is to be kind to cats.

Puss: Suck-up.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
The greatest virtue is to be kind to cats.

especially in Ulthar

[jay gw]

You can't answer that without determining a few other things, like what's your purpose in life.

So there are no universal virtues? If everything depends on the personal, why isn't the murderer's malice a virtue?

[agnostic_god]

To seek the Holy Grail.

Oh, wait, that's a quest.

Yellow. No, orange.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[El Greco]

Originally posted by jay gw
So there are no universal virtues? If everything depends on the personal, why isn't the murderer's malice a virtue?

The fact that there are no universal virtues doesn't mean that ALL traits can be virtues.

Besides, a murderer's malice can be almost a virtue during a war. It can even make someone a hero. They just name it "courage", "militancy", etc.

It's the society that forms the virtues. And society is dynamic.

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by Piscivore
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women"

Oops, sorry, wrong question. I pulled a Bush! :)

You stole what I was going to say! :(

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by jay gw
What is the greatest virtue that a man/woman can possess?
I'm going to go ahead and put my money on Justice. Next, I'd say Wisdom, Happiness, Modesty, and Cynicism.

[jay gw]

The fact that there are no universal virtues

You are assuming there aren't.

doesn't mean that ALL traits can be virtues.

So there are rules for what can be? Where?

Society has a strong role in forming virtues, but that was my next question-

What if the society promotes self destructiveness as virtue?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by jay gw

What if the society promotes self destructiveness as virtue?
Society does promote it; it just doesn't admit it, officially.

[jay gw]

Society does promote it; it just doesn't admit it, officially.

So it becomes a virtue. That's what El Greco said.

And why not officially? If it all depends on the community, why on earth would anyone be embarassed to say it?

[El Greco]

Originally posted by jay gw
You are assuming there aren't.

I am. So what ? This is philosophy. Philosophy is largely based on assumptions. There is no way to prove this or the opposite.

But generally speaking, I don't think that any abstract ideas can be "universal". And what "universal" exactly means ? I suspect that there will be some difficulty in defining this...

Originally posted by jay gw
So there are rules for what can be? Where?

In each society, in each micro-society, in each house, in each person. We can't determine the rules with accuracy, but we can get a general outline if we study a person or a society. In a theocratic nation, religiosity or faith may generally be viewed as a very important virtue. Not so in another, less religious society.

Originally posted by jay gw
What if the society promotes self destructiveness as virtue? [/B]

What if it does ? I can't guess because I can't think of such a society. Most societies want to flourish and thrive. And self-destructiveness actually opposes basic human insticts of self-preservance.

But self-destructiveness can be promoted as a means of reaching another, more flashy virtue. Think about suicide cults... and the results...

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by jay gw
Virtue
A particularly efficacious, good, or beneficial quality.

What is the greatest virtue that a man/woman can possess?


To destroy ones enemies, to drive them before you and to hear the lamantations of their women.

Of course, if you aren't a Cimmerian, this moral code may not work for you.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by jay gw
So it becomes a virtue. That's what El Greco said.

And why not officially? If it all depends on the community, why on earth would anyone be embarassed to say it?
Partly because society likes to put its best face forward. This was part of the problem with Margaret Mead's original research. She talked to people about their values, rather than observing them in action, and came up with this whole warm fuzzy drek.

Also, because society doesn't tend to promote self-destruction directly. Society doesn't say "Supersize thy value meal, that thy flesh may multiply and thy arteries clog." It says, "Mmmm yummy, have some more."

Lastly, of course, is because the kinds of self-destruction soiety tends to promote (fatty foods, smoking, drinking, drugs, etc) aren't immediate. Perhaps, rather than saying society does promote self-destruction, I should say that society promotes discounting the future.

[jay gw]

I can't guess because I can't think of such a society.

How about the Aztecs? To be a human sacrifice was an ideal. Just ask Cortes.

And it is for (some) Islamics, too.

Native Americans only raised your status if you killed in wars.

Why are children fighting in wars? Because they would rather do it than go to school?

I don't see how any and all societies promoting war can't be promoting self destructiveness. Who's doing the fighting, robots?

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by El Greco
I can't think of such a society. Most societies want to flourish and thrive. And self-destructiveness actually opposes basic human insticts of self-preservance.

Through stupidity, a society will engage in self-destructive behavior. I think Madagascar is doing this now, in the form of the church leaders urging resistance to the promotion of condom use. If too many people listen to the church, the population will die off from the AIDS epidemic within a couple more generations. Seems fairly self-destructive to me.

[jay gw]

Through stupidity, a society will engage in self-destructive behavior. I think Madagascar is doing this now, in the form of the church leaders urging resistance to the promotion of condom use.

Zimbabwe? North Korea?

The Maya? Rome?

[El Greco]

It doesn't matter whether WE view a social behavior as self-destructive. The point is how THEY see it. For all we know, we can be dead wrong too, because we (western-type societies, that is) may be promoting self-destructiveness without knowing it. In that context, you can't say that a society promotes self-destructiveness unless this is conscious. Furthermore, promoting the destruction of *some* members of the society may ne a necessary evil (in their eyes) in order for the whole society to thrive (eg sacrifices in order to appease gods).

[jay gw]

It doesn't matter whether WE view a social behavior as self-destructive. The point is how THEY see it.

This is the same thing as saying it doesn't matter what the outsider thinks of the family abusing children, if the members view it as necessary.

In that context, you can't say that a society promotes self-destructiveness unless this is conscious.

How can something be promoted and yet no one knows it's being promoted?

You seem to be viewing cultures and people in isolation. Nothing is in isolation or vacuums. What they do "over there" does not exist in some alternate dimension.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by jay gw
This is the same thing as saying it doesn't matter what the outsider thinks of the family abusing children, if the members view it as necessary.

No, nothing to do with this. It is the same thing as saying that even if the family abuses the children, we can't say they want self-destructiveness if for example they believe that by abusing their children they will secure eternal life. See how it's different ?

Originally posted by jay gw
How can something be promoted and yet no one knows it's being promoted?[/B]

Our technological advances may lead us to self-destruction yet we believe we're doing it in order to better human lives. The result will determine whether our philosophies about "virtues" had been correct.

Originally posted by jay gw
You seem to be viewing cultures and people in isolation. Nothing is in isolation or vacuums. What they do "over there" does not exist in some alternate dimension. [/B]

I don't see whence this conclusion. All I'm saying is that we can't say that a society *consciously* promotes self-destruction when they themselves don't see it that way. It's really simple: If I believe something absurd, eg that by smoking I will become more compassionate, I smoke because I want to promote compassion. Thus, compassion is a highly regarded virtue in my moral system. Now, by smoking I may actually promote my self-destruction, but since I do it without knowing it, you can't say that self-destructiveness is a virtue for me.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by jay gw
This is the same thing as saying it doesn't matter what the outsider thinks of the family abusing children, if the members view it as necessary.

"Abuse" is a pretty ambiguous term. Go on a parenting forum and read a few threads on "spanking" if you don't believe me.

[jay gw]

All I'm saying is that we can't say that a society *consciously* promotes self-destruction when they themselves don't see it that way.

So you say that it's possible that a society can be furthering its own destruction but is unaware of it, and then you say that no one should question it because it's the society's right.

You're saying the same thing as someone knows you're using heroin to feel better, and it's not their business to say something.

I do not agree.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by jay gw
So you say that it's possible that a society can be furthering its own destruction but is unaware of it, and then you say that no one should question it because it's the societies right.


Where exactly did I say that no one should question it because it's the society's right ?

Did anyone else understand it this way ?

Is it so difficult to understand the difference between what a society promotes and what it thinks it promotes ?

1. A woowoo promotes homeopathy because he values longevity
2. I believe that he by promoting homeopathy he actually promotes quackery
3. So, what is a "virtue" for the believer woo-woo ? Longevity or Quackery ?
4. Does anything of the above imply that I don't have the right to question what he believes ?

[hammegk]

1. Self-preservation 2. Perpetuation of one's genes 3. Perpetuation of one's species genes


What value is any other virtue without those first?

[jay gw]

Where exactly did I say that no one should question it because it's the society's right ?

My question at the beginning was what is the greatest virtue. You said "it depends". I said, "On what?" You said, "On what the society says".

Now you're saying that it's not the society's right, there is another source for deciding on the virtue.

You are questioning the virtue society promotes. On what basis? It is a basis that is outside the community.

[Gulliamo]

Originally posted by El Greco
What if it does ? I can't guess because I can't think of such a society. Most societies want to flourish and thrive. And self-destructiveness actually opposes basic human insticts of self-preservance. Think Japan; early 1930's.

[Gulliamo]

Originally posted by jay gw
My question at the beginning was what is the greatest virtue. You said "it depends". I said, "On what?" You said, "On what the society says".

Now you're saying that it's not the society's right, there is another source for deciding on the virtue.

You are questioning the virtue society promotes. On what basis? It is a basis that is outside the community. I think the answer is: There are societal virtues and person virtues. When you find your person virtues are not in line with societal virtues you need to re-examine both and make a determination on which is out of line.

[CSSMariner]

The single most valuable virtue is honesty, with the most important form being intellectual honesty with one's self. When a person is honest with himself or herself, it is an easy and very simple mater to externalize that honesty to and with others.

When I was young, I'm 60 now but I remember back that far, and trying to date more than one girl at a time, "Those were the days," I discovered just how hard it was to defend a lie, even a little, so-called "white lie."

I learned very early on that it is infinitely easier to defend the truth, and as it is said, "The truth will set you free." No true-believers, I don't mean "Revealed truths," which are neither, so don't take me there. ;)