Iraqi Strategy

[Skeptic]

It's known as the "Russian Gambit":

1). Retreat deep into your own territory.

2). Wait for snow.

[Mike B.]

I remember when Jefferson Davis said that about Sherman in Georgia, Grant said, "Who is going to provide the snow?"

;)

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Skeptic
It's known as the "Russian Gambit":

1). Retreat deep into your own territory.

2). Wait for snow.

Since the U.S. isn't protecting its rear or flank much, how 'bout this:
1. hide in the cities
2. wait for the troops to pass north
3. organize guerrilla assaults on the poorly fortified positions toward the rear, disrupting the flow of materials northward

I really wish we had more of a news blackout right now. It makes me nervous when too much info is out there. Particularly, I did not like hearing about the recent grenade attack on the 101st Airborne in Kuwait.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by DrBenway


Since the U.S. isn't protecting its rear or flank much, how 'bout this:
1. hide in the cities
2. wait for the troops to pass north
3. organize guerrilla assaults on the poorly fortified positions toward the rear, disrupting the flow of materials northward

I really wish we had more of a news blackout right now. It makes me nervous when too much info is out there. Particularly, I did not like hearing about the recent grenade attack on the 101st Airborne in Kuwait.

The entire 101st is in the rear standing by. Then you have the 4th Infantry Division waiting to get into the box. There is no place to put all those troops except inside Baghdad lol.

JK

[The Fool]

Originally posted by DrBenway


Particularly, I did not like hearing about the recent grenade attack on the 101st Airborne in Kuwait.

A US Engineer is being held in connection with this...Looks like a good old fashioned "officer frag"

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

The entire 101st is in the rear standing by. Then you have the 4th Infantry Division waiting to get into the box. There is no place to put all those troops except inside Baghdad lol.JK
But don't the supply ships for the 4th have to travel around Turkey, since Turkey won't let them cross? How many days will that take? And I think I read somewhere that the 4th is in Texas still.

If we don't start getting aide to the people ASAP, we'll have a popular revolt on our hands, as well as a war. They're already grumbling in Safwan (see http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/World/iraq_safwan030322.html)

Oh, this war is stressing me out.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by The Fool
A US Engineer is being held in connection with this...Looks like a good old fashioned "officer frag"

Isn't an officer frag usually directed at a single hated officer? This attack affected 13 officers. My guess would be a couple of Kuwaiti soldiers trying to do right by Islam, with some help from a sympathetic U.S. soldier.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by DrBenway

But don't the supply ships for the 4th have to travel around Turkey, since Turkey won't let them cross?

Approx. 10, last I heard.

9 by now, I would imagine.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by DrBenway


Isn't an officer frag usually directed at a single hated officer? This attack affected 13 officers. My guess would be a couple of Kuwaiti soldiers trying to do right by Islam, with some help from a sympathetic U.S. soldier.
Lol...gotta get islam in there somewhere eh? Maybe the American soldier is just a common old loonie murderer.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by The Fool

Lol...gotta get islam in there somewhere eh? Maybe the American soldier is just a common old loonie murderer.

Maybe so. But our enemies talk about Islam a lot, no? Check out this link: http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=94006

[Skeptic]

Lol...gotta get islam in there somewhere eh?

You mean, the American soldier who decided to "frag" dead as many officers as he could, is a MUSLIM???

Who could have ever suspected that?

I'm shocked--SHOCKED!--that such behavior is possible from a follower of Islam, the great "religion of peace".

[My Final Spider]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/22/sprj.irq.101.attack/index.html

No talk about motive, though.

[evildave]

Darn, I started a whole topic in R&P about the grenade guy and working Islam into it.

Keeping small cells of resistance in the rear is one way to ensure there are American/British casualties.

They will keep infiltrating and attacking as long as they can. Got to keep the cells of resistance sleeping until they've been bypassed, because there will be lower concentrations of relatively unprotectd troops who are ferrying supplies behind the armor that you can nab in the darkness.

It works WAY better than trying to shoot at tanks and the main armored strength.

Soon they'll begin using those human shields. Taking over homes and apartments with families in them. It will rack up the civilian casualties. Especially when they get nearer to Baghdad.

[Aoidoi]

Back to the OP:

I'm starting to rather suspect that the Iraqi leadership has prepared cells to wage a guerrilla war. Were I in charge over there and determined to fight that's how I'd do it... try to cause casualties so the US will give up. I suspect that even the most megalomaniacal dictator has to realize that he tried a conventional war in 91 and got thoroughly trashed, so a repeat would not be a great idea. Any leadership that's still intact is probably keeping their heads down and hoping that the US will lose it's taste for fighting as it loses soldiers. I rather doubt that Bush will change his mind on this one, though... he sure seems stubborn enough to keep going despite losses.

In any case, with a less than well-motivated regular army I suspect that (and it appears that) Iraqi irregular forces will be the biggest problem. Just for fun, I seem to recall that military personel who are captured out of uniform are considered spies and subject to execution... anyone else remember that or am I confabulating something?

(Mind you, were I actually in charge of Iraq I'd have taken the buy-off and gone into exile... but then I'm not too likely to kill my way to the top of a government anytime soon, either. :D)

[arcticpenguin]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2878495.stm

Coalition Central Command has accused Iraqi irregular troops - some of President Saddam Hussein's most loyal soldiers - of disguising themselves as civilians, and of firing on coalition troops after initially signalling that they were surrendering.

[Skeptic]

Just for fun, I seem to recall that military personel who are captured out of uniform are considered spies and subject to execution... anyone else remember that or am I confabulating something?

Not true, or any soldier on leave wearing civvies in a bar, say, or caught in the shower or bed by a surprise attack, would be a "spy". What IS true that any military personnel captured wearing THE ENEMY'S uniform are considered spies and are liable to be executed without trial. This is what happened to the German commandoes who were caught wearing American uniform during the famous "battle of the bulge", for example.

[Aoidoi]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Not true, or any soldier on leave wearing civvies in a bar, say, or caught in the shower or bed by a surprise attack, would be a "spy". What IS true that any military personnel captured wearing THE ENEMY'S uniform are considered spies and are liable to be executed without trial. This is what happened to the German commandoes who were caught wearing American uniform during the famous "battle of the bulge", for example. Ah, so I was misremembering. Thanks.

I realized it didn't sound quite right when I typed it, but couldn't figure out why I was confused. :)

[evildave]

Not in a WAR zone, they're not. Running around in civilian garb in a battle zone disqualifies the soldier in question from POW status. This was written in specifically to protect civilians from the sort of danger that Iraq is subjecting them to.

If you get caught with your shorts down, you're probably in CAMP, and if the enemy has just caught you there, they'll make allowances.

The tactic of moving troops, dressed as civilians, under a flag of truce, and then attacking is against LOTS of geneva convention rules.

We may be seeing something new. The Iraqi special forces appear to be watching for surrendering soldiers and shelling their position when they meet up with the allies. Keep the fight in them with fear. Make the allies trigger fingers "itchy" as well.

[Jon_in_london]

Combatants dressing in civillian clothes/enemy uniform when at war is against the Geneva convention. People who do this should be executed to discourage others.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Combatants dressing in civillian clothes/enemy uniform when at war is against the Geneva convention. People who do this should be executed to discourage others.
Its difficult to put a blanket rule on such things. Did you see the CIA agents in Afghanistan? they were certainly dressed "irregular". Many Gun nuts on this board will tell you that an armed civilian population is a legitimate last line of defence against an invading enemy. I wonder what they think of this current application of thier principles?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Lol...gotta get islam in there somewhere eh?

You mean, the American soldier who decided to "frag" dead as many officers as he could, is a MUSLIM???

Who could have ever suspected that?

I'm shocked--SHOCKED!--that such behavior is possible from a follower of Islam, the great "religion of peace".

that's a pretty strange thing for mr . 'anti-semitism is bad', to say.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Combatants dressing in civillian clothes/enemy uniform when at war is against the Geneva convention. People who do this should be executed to discourage others.

the state of supply in the iraqi army is so bad that many don't even get proper uniforms, not to mention food and water.

[armageddonman]

Funny how the US are suddenly concerned with the Geneva Convention. Seems to be another case of "If it doesn't affect the US it doesn't exist".

[iain]

Originally posted by The Fool
Many Gun nuts on this board will tell you that an armed civilian population is a legitimate last line of defence against an invading enemy. I wonder what they think of this current application of thier principles? Interesting question.

We know that Saddam is a very nasty dictator who happily ignores international law and murders his own people when he can get away with it.

I'm not quite sure why anyone would have thought that Saddam would politely adhere to the Geneva Convention and "civilised" rules of war when he is facing complete and utter defeat and really has nothing to lose.

So far of course there has been nothing major. Parading some captured prisoners on TV (a la Afghanistan) and having some weapons which, whilst against the UN resolutions, pose no particular threat to the allies or other western nations.

I very much hope that it stays this way and that the war is over quickly with few casualties.

[ArmchairPhysicist]

We know that Saddam is a very nasty dictator who happily ignores international law and murders his own people when he can get away with it.

I keep hearing this statement, with numbers quoted in the 100,000 to 250,000 range. I also hear these people were killed for "no reason" which leads me to believe that the persons quoting the numbers simply don't know why these people were killed, not that they were just killed for sport.

Anyway, can anyone point towards some references to support claims of the widespread murder of his own people? I've heard plenty of hearsay, but am coming up short on actual facts (which is not to say the facts aren't there, just that I'd like to see the circumstances behind the numbers)

[DrBenway]

As I feared, the delay in getting the 4th into the theater is setting the stage for a more prolonged and bloody battle in the north.

I don't know where to direct my rage: at Turkey, for their refusal to allow troops to cross their territory, or at the U.S., for not getting this part of the plan clearly worked out before the battle began.

In any event, I'm pretty pissed at Turkey.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/889968.asp?0bl=-0

The commander said the mass desertions and surrenders by Iraqi troops, expected once the U.S. campaign began, have not materialized in the north. In the 1991 Gulf War, tens of thousands of Iraqi regulars surrendered en mass to Kurdish opposition forces.
“I really don’t understand the American policy,” the Iraqi opposition commander said. “We are losing momentum. It seems like a very chaotic tactic. The Iraqis will surrender, but you have to hit them hard.”
In coordination with American special forces operating in northern Iraq, the Kurdish opposition has set up several “processing centers” for surrendering Iraqi troops. But in the five days since the bombing began, no Iraqi deserters or surrendering forces have passed through the facilities, officials said.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


the state of supply in the iraqi army is so bad that many don't even get proper uniforms, not to mention food and water.

Good.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by armageddonman
Funny how the US are suddenly concerned with the Geneva Convention. Seems to be another case of "If it doesn't affect the US it doesn't exist".

:confused:
Are you suggesting Iraq POWs are not being treated by this code? or were before the American POWs were on TV?

[evildave]

Consider for a moment how in the first couple of days of the war, surrendering Iraqi soldiers marched past a news camera, and a small POW camp was aired with an Iraqi prostrating himself before an American soldier, who smiled and waved to him, like "settle down".

Wasn't airing those lovely pieces approximately the same thing?

Wouldn't it be humiliating (and singularly worrying) to be an Iraqi soldier whose face is on-camera for the secret police back home to identify and go make inquiries about your family?

I haven't seen that footage run on TV since.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Lol...gotta get islam in there somewhere eh?

You mean, the American soldier who decided to "frag" dead as many officers as he could, is a MUSLIM???

Who could have ever suspected that?

I'm shocked--SHOCKED!--that such behavior is possible from a follower of Islam, the great "religion of peace".

just the sort of comment i would expect from an anti-anti-semite.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by DrBenway
As I feared, the delay in getting the 4th into the theater is setting the stage for a more prolonged and bloody battle in the north.

I don't know where to direct my rage: at Turkey, for their refusal to allow troops to cross their territory, or at the U.S., for not getting this part of the plan clearly worked out before the battle began.

In any event, I'm pretty pissed at Turkey.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/889968.asp?0bl=-0


you mean Turkey is looking out for it's own interests? Shock, horror. I am not saying if it is principled or not, but the fact that they are doing so is hardly surprising.

why does anyone expect that any country should allow the US to march it's soldiers across their territory at will? it has on right to expect that it can. the world is not merely a place for the US to play war games on.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
not merely a place for the US to play war games on.

Games?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by DrBenway


Games?

ok, leave out the word games, and address the rest of the issue.

[DrBenway]

AUP,

My countrymen love Australia and its people. I have no doubt that if ever your country were attacked, America would send its young people to your side in a heartbeat to defend you. We are your friends, and it's a deep and sincere friendship that isn't going to vanish anytime soon.

There is no Muslim state that would offer this sort of friendship to either my country or your country.

This sentiment has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion, and I apologize for going off topic.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Skeptic
It's known as the "Russian Gambit":

1). Retreat deep into your own territory.

2). Wait for snow.

In the Iraqi case, they wait for the hot season. Once the area gets hot enough it will give them a small advantage in that they are more used to it and their guerilla factions won't be in heavy uniform/gear like our troops.

Mind you, the best tactical time to launch this invasion would have been a few months ago. The iraqis basically received aid and comfort from the French delays since the Iraqi summer is big factor.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by DrBenway
AUP,

My countrymen love Australia and its people. I have no doubt that if ever your country were attacked, America would send its young people to your side in a heartbeat to defend you. We are your friends, and it's a deep and sincere friendship that isn't going to vanish anytime soon.

There is no Muslim state that would offer this sort of friendship to either my country or your country.

This sentiment has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion, and I apologize for going off topic.

unless that love were mediated by, say, concern for Indonesia. The US has put it's interests with Indonesia above it's relationship with Australia in the past. It has even been involved in removing a democratically elected government it didn't like. In fact, the site you mention on human rights is chaired by a member of the political party that they weren't happy with, as it is mildly 'socialist'.