Religious upset about Sunday Halloween

[DangerousBeliefs]

NEWNAN, Ga. (AP) - Across the Bible Belt this Halloween, some little ghosts and goblins might get shooed away by the neighbors - and some youngsters will not be allowed to go trick-or-treating at all - because the holiday falls on a Sunday this year.

"It's a day for the good Lord, not for the devil," said Barbara Braswell, who plans to send her 4-year-old granddaughter Maliyah out trick-or-treating in a princess costume on Saturday instead.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-10-16-sunday-halloween_x.htm

Fuddies are funny...

[DarkMagician]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
NEWNAN, Ga. (AP) - Across the Bible Belt this Halloween, some little ghosts and goblins might get shooed away by the neighbors - and some youngsters will not be allowed to go trick-or-treating at all - because the holiday falls on a Sunday this year.

"It's a day for the good Lord, not for the devil," said Barbara Braswell, who plans to send her 4-year-old granddaughter Maliyah out trick-or-treating in a princess costume on Saturday instead.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-10-16-sunday-halloween_x.htm

Fuddies are funny... Well, beggar's night over here is on the 30th (saturday).

What they do if the 30th falls on a Sunday, I do not know.

[c4ts]

Idiots. Halloween was never about devil worship, which the fundies would know if they'd actually gone and researched it, and they would have found that none of the actual pagan practices are left over today (there are, incidentally, people who celebrate Samhain, and wish to keep it seperate from Halloween). But no, they just want to isolate themselves from everything and call any mainstream holdays evil so they can be anal and celebrate nothing but their church and their misinformed opinions. If they were in any way tolerant, they wouldn't care about celebrating someone else's holiday.

[Z]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
"It's a day for the good Lord, not for the devil," said Barbara Braswell, who plans to send her 4-year-old granddaughter Maliyah out trick-or-treating in a princess costume on Saturday instead.

Oh, so Sunday is not a day for the Devil, but Saturday will be just fine?

:crazy:

[Darat]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Oh, so Sunday is not a day for the Devil, but Saturday will be just fine?

:crazy:

Well since Saturday is the Sabbath they may not be too keen on it falling on a Saturday either. ;)

[TruthSeeker]

Does this mean I have to dress up like a dead Disney Princess on both Saturday and Sunday? Or should I get two candy-handing-out costumes?

Maybe I'll give the Saturday kids rosaries and bible stories and save the chocolate for the Sunday night hell-bound?


Very confusing.

[Thumper]

Also, not all communities around here are moving Halloween to Saturday, so the kids (whatever their age) have the opportunity to Trick or Treat twice this year. :)

The Bible Belt produces some of the best thinkers in America. (not)

[Kitty Chan]

yea 7th day adventists saturday is church day

They accuse the catholic church of moving it to sunday

As I understand it Jesus did away with sunday when He shortened the commendants to two. But people like to chew which is the Lords Day over endlessly. To me if your a christian you dont need a specific day to remember God.

If Im home on Halloween then I give out treats last yr I was not but the previous year several of the munchkins complained about the Costco chips and everyone was handing them out. So if I hide in the basement and watch tv its for that reason I havent decided yet. One thing better about saturday is its good so the kids dont stay up late on a school night.

To be sure there is probably those out there that treat the holiday seriously but the kids its all about the haul and who has a great costume, personally I perfer them go to the mall its too cold generally.

As for that article they interviewed people on the street and city council but I notice a lack of actual church officials input, so its a bit of a emotional story.

Dark magician what is beggars night, what country are you in??

[DarkMagician]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
Dark magician what is beggars night, what country are you in?? Beggars' night is the day where the kids actually trick-or-treat in my area. Time and even date often varies from town to town. I live in the United States, specifically Iowa.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Does this mean I have to dress up like a dead Disney Princess on both Saturday and Sunday? Or should I get two candy-handing-out costumes?

Maybe I'll give the Saturday kids rosaries and bible stories and save the chocolate for the Sunday night hell-bound?


Very confusing.

If you really want to be evil, give out Chick Tracts instead of candy. However, some people might not share your sense of humor...

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by c4ts
If you really want to be evil, give out Chick Tracts instead of candy. However, some people might not share your sense of humor...


:D

[The GM]

Originally posted by DarkMagician
Beggars' night is the day where the kids actually trick-or-treat in my area. Time and even date often varies from town to town. I live in the United States, specifically Iowa.

And these Iowa kids are serious about their free candy. Two years in a row we were egged because no one was home to hand out treats.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by DarkMagician
Beggars' night is the day where the kids actually trick-or-treat in my area. Time and even date often varies from town to town. I live in the United States, specifically Iowa.

So im confused they got rid of Halloween or just renamed it?

I thought you were off north america never heard of beggers night.:)

[Abdul Alhazred]

Well, there's stuff like this driving it:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1053/1053_01.asp

Note how much Missus Henn is a caricature of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginzburg, down to the style of glasses.

She appears in this anti-evolution tract as well.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1051/1051_01.asp

[DarkMagician]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
So im confused they got rid of Halloween or just renamed it?

I thought you were off north america never heard of beggers night.:) No, we just have the trick-or-treat part on a different day.

[crimresearch]

I read the linked story, and a longer version on Yahoo News, and contrary to the healine, its seems that they had trouble coming up with a long list of all of these communities banning Halloween on Sunday...most places had tried it once, and were NOT going to ban it this year.

I think a lot of these claims are coming from fundies who *wish* it were banned, and are just seizing on the current day for imaginary support.

I was in Virginia the last time it fell on a Sunday, and there was a group of crackpots who went around putting up phony copies of 'the law' claiming that it was illegal to desecrate the Sabbath under penalty of jail...the local authorities quickly disavowed such nonsense.

[Kitty Chan]

that just confirms what I said earlier, a christian should be praying more than just sunday. What about a christian cop that has a shift on sunday and cant go to church. The whole got to on a certain day thing is no longer applicable.

And I bet Iowa changed it to sat nite so kids are not up late on a sunday when school is on monday. Plus you have all sat to get costumes etc.

I get the impression that most holidays are a mix of christian and non christian and just some made up by governments. And because calanders have changed over the years none of them are probably on the right day. Unless they follow the moon or something then they would change every year anyway.

As for Jack chick I dont know never seen it before. Its over the top like other stuff in this world. :rolleyes: But I still say that its personality driven. Thats my theory on why different demonations of churches some people are quiet. some loud and people like to hang out with those like themelves. Its not exclusive to church either, any group gathering is like that.

[c4ts]

In the right light, Chick Tracts can be gutbusting-ly hillarious. But I suppose not all of us are fans of absurd conclusions and unlikely situations.

[The GM]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan


And I bet Iowa changed it to sat nite so kids are not up late on a sunday when school is on monday. Plus you have all sat to get costumes etc.


No, it's not really like that. Each town chooses it's beggars night individually, so for some (like a small town that has a football game on Friday night) it might be held on a Thursday. Bigger city may have it on a Saturday. It just depends on when the city council says it's going to be. It usually runs between 6-8 PM. Don't want the kiddies out roaming all night!

[MLynn]

Originally posted by c4ts
Idiots. Halloween was never about devil worship, which the fundies would know if they'd actually gone and researched it, and they would have found that none of the actual pagan practices are left over today (there are, incidentally, people who celebrate Samhain, and wish to keep it seperate from Halloween). But no, they just want to isolate themselves from everything and call any mainstream holdays evil so they can be anal and celebrate nothing but their church and their misinformed opinions. If they were in any way tolerant, they wouldn't care about celebrating someone else's holiday.
I agree with you, and I'm a Xian! I don't ascribe power to something that has no power. I wish Xians would get some education.

I'm giving out candy this year and I love doing it; I like the smiles of the kids and parents alike and I always give out the candy that I like :) , e.g. Snickers, Butterfinger, etc.



Come on Xians - wake up!

[MLynn]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
Well, there's stuff like this driving it:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1053/1053_01.asp

Note how much Missus Henn is a caricature of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginzburg, down to the style of glasses.

She appears in this anti-evolution tract as well.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1051/1051_01.asp
Jesus, Abdul! ;)

[Fade]

I will celebrate Samhain as I always have.

It is the day that doesn't exist. The day that the dead can speak, if you believe in such things. A nice day for being drunk without consequence. Hooray for Samhain.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
Well, there's stuff like this driving it:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1053/1053_01.asp



I love Chick tracts. The girl's mother "who watches all the vampire shows" named her daughter Buffy. Lol. I bet Jack Chick watched a few episodes himself, for inspiration. I'll be watching Chick tracts for Buffy-speak from now on. "Salvation much?"

[evildave]

I'll be watching The Nightmare Before Christmas on my 200" TV, and handing out candy. Maybe I'll finish the night with some zombie movies.

I hope Shaun of the Dead comes out on DVD before next Halloween. That film is just plain awesome. I can't recommend it highly enough. If you like zombies and silliness, it's a total win.

[AWPrime]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan

I get the impression that most holidays are a mix of christian and non christian and just some made up by governments. And because calanders have changed over the years none of them are probably on the right day. Unless they follow the moon or something then they would change every year anyway.

I don't believe that there are any pure christian holidays.

Maybe a list would be good for discussion.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by AWPrime
I don't believe that there are any pure christian holidays.

Maybe a list would be good for discussion.

That was floating around in the back of my head too! The Jewish for sure have specific celebrations. I know Christmas is mixed up somehow with Christs birth and a roman winter celebration. Even Halloween was All Saints Day.

Mind you St Patricks Day in Ireland is a holy day not like north america where you dye your head green and get drunk, so thats one pure christian holiday at least to begin.

All aside from government decided holidays like your presidents day, remembrance day etc. Or national rasin day or chilli eaters day. :)

I think holidays get mixed up a bit due to merging changing cultures, changing calanders etc. Modern culture also makes it difficult to practice some holiday traditions, ie I saw a discussion with Jewish tradition of not working and they were trying to determine if pushing a carriage where it fell in the catagory. Also I dont know how many but for sure some traditional Jewish families have 2 dishwashers for the separation of food.

The only way for it to be totally tradition is if it was to follow a moon cycle or something like that. I will try to surf around and see what I can.

[Eos of the Eons]

Must be all indignant about halloween being on Sunday, but must make sure kids gets candy...so send em out a day early. Nuts. If they hate halloween so much then they should give it all up and not get any candy. Ha.

If any kid comes to my door on Satureday, then I'll tell them to come back tomorrow, on the 31st.


I know a few fundies that put signs on their doors for kids to read. They say things that try to make them feel guilty for worshipping the devil.

I had to go over the holiday with my son to show him it wasn't devil worship. Rather, it's to scare away evil spirits so that the winter isn't too horribly dreadful...that's what I read anyway.

Who really cares. It's fun. It's harmless, and keeps dentists in business - ha ha!

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
That was floating around in the back of my head too! The Jewish for sure have specific celebrations. I know Christmas is mixed up somehow with Christs birth and a roman winter celebration. Even Halloween was All Saints Day.

Mind you St Patricks Day in Ireland is a holy day not like north america where you dye your head green and get drunk, so thats one pure christian holiday at least to begin.

All aside from government decided holidays like your presidents day, remembrance day etc. Or national rasin day or chilli eaters day. :)

I think holidays get mixed up a bit due to merging changing cultures, changing calanders etc. Modern culture also makes it difficult to practice some holiday traditions, ie I saw a discussion with Jewish tradition of not working and they were trying to determine if pushing a carriage where it fell in the catagory. Also I dont know how many but for sure some traditional Jewish families have 2 dishwashers for the separation of food.

The only way for it to be totally tradition is if it was to follow a moon cycle or something like that. I will try to surf around and see what I can.

Holy Days (no matter the culture) tended to conform to the agrarian cycles of the seasons. Equinoxes and solstices were convenient and easily predictable 'time marks'. Of course the agrarian cycles became religiously associated with birth-death-regeneration gods of all persuasions throughout history. New religions tended to syncretise the Holy Sites and Holy Days of the existing community. Before Christianity, December 25 (or, generally, the winter solstice) was celebrated as the birth day of Mithras and of Sol Invictus of the Romans. Christianity just 'acquired' it because keeping holy days at seasonal or astronomical time marks caused less bother with mixed/mixing cultures.

If you are looking for a 'moon date' holiday, you need look no further than Easter.

Again, with Halloween, Christians appropriated the traditional Samhain of the Celts and called it All Hallows Eve -- an eve, followed by a day for all the saints, as it were.

Think of all the days of the week, and all the months. ALL pagan names, including SUNday, and of course, my own THORSday!:) :vk:

[The Mighty Thor]

Mind you St Patricks Day in Ireland is a holy day not like north america where you dye your head green and get drunk, so thats one pure christian holiday at least to begin.

Have you ever been to Ireland on St Patrick's Day? It is a VERY drunken, carousing, celebrate the Emerald Isle day. It is not very "Holy", as I feel you imply.:(

see:

http://www.tourismireland.com/stpatricksday/

[Stitch]

Haloween twice in one year is fine by me, it saves me feeding the dog on 2 nights if any brats are daft enough to come in to my garden :D

[Bluegill]

Originally posted by c4ts
If you really want to be evil, give out Chick Tracts instead of candy. However, some people might not share your sense of humor...

Those who don't appreciate the humor on some level will likely appreciate His Sacred Message.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor
Have you ever been to Ireland on St Patrick's Day? It is a VERY drunken, carousing, celebrate the Emerald Isle day. It is not very "Holy", as I feel you imply.:(



In Ireland, drunken carousing _is_ "holy."

[epepke]

Originally posted by c4ts
If they were in any way tolerant, they wouldn't care about celebrating someone else's holiday.

Except that itÃ_

[drkitten]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor

Again, with Halloween, Christians appropriated the traditional Samhain of the Celts and called it All Hallows Eve -- an eve, followed by a day for all the saints, as it were.

I believe that this is a myth. All Hallow's Eve (the Catholic holiday) was created in 835 by the current pope (Gregory IV. if my sources are right). In the ninth century, the Celts were a little bit of noise, at the extreme fringes of civilization (or even beyond the fringes), and completely without cultural influence in Europe. Why would Greg even bother "appropriating" from the Celts, when he had much more pressing issues in southern Europe and Germany.

The primary source for the claim of "Christianizing" Samhain comes from Sir James Frazier, author of "The Golden Bough," and much of his conclusions must now be rejected as completely unsupported. Just as a simple for-instance, there is STILL no written evidence supporting the mere existence of the Samhain festival that dates to earlier than about the late 18th century; the Celtic calendar had a month named Samhain, but to the best of my knowledge, no primary sources mention the Samhain festival itself.

If you actually know of any primary sources that support the Christianization of Samhain, I'd be interested to see them. But I'm afraid that my readings put this particular belief in the same camp as the "thousands of witches burned to death all over England during the Burning Times" myth.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by epepke
Except that itß

?

[Eos of the Eons]

The Celtics had Halloween around 700, before the catholics

834 Oct 31, This evening became All Hallow’s Eve with the establishment of Nov 1 as Feast of All Saints by Pope Gregory IV.

http://timelines.ws/0600AD_999AD.HTML

The Halloween observance originated with the Celtic Druids around 700 B.C. The Druids believed that the souls of the dead returned to inhabit the bodies of the living on October 31st . Villagers donned masks and costumes and paraded to the outskirts of their towns to trick roving spirits into leaving.

http://www.anniversaryideas.co.uk/Halloween.asp

Unless these sources are daft, then the Celtics had Halloween 134 years before the catholics.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
The Celtics had Halloween around 700, before the catholics



http://timelines.ws/0600AD_999AD.HTML



http://www.anniversaryideas.co.uk/Halloween.asp

Unless these sources are daft, then the Celtics had Halloween 134 years before the catholics.

Unless I am being daft, it is more like 1534 years.

834 Oct 31, This evening became All Hallow’s Eve with the establishment of Nov 1 as Feast of All Saints by Pope Gregory IV.


The Halloween observance originated with the Celtic Druids around 700 B.C.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by pgwenthold

Unless I am being daft, it is more like 1534 years.

That's close to my point. Druidism was essentially stamped out as a religious practice by the invading Romans in the early centuries of the Empire (1st and 2nd century CE). After the fall of Rome, Druidism (and Celtic culture in general) became largely a non-issue as the missionaries re-established Christianity in the hinterlands along the lines of direction provided by the southern Europeans, aided by the military conquests of the Franks during the empire of Charlemagne.

Pointing to an obscure, ill-documented practice of a barbarian religion from a tiny, overlooked corner at the edge of the known world, that hadn't been practiced for a half century, and claiming that it was the basis for the establishment of a new, world-wide festival,.... well, it basically defies belief. Why would Greg have wanted all of Italy (which was never Celtic) to suddently start celebrating the "Celtic" practices of Hallowe'en?

Standard Catholic practice regarding local celebrations would have been to quietly suppress it or to create a local competing festival, perhaps commemorating a local saint, of which there were certainly enough about. But the idea of a Christianity-wide celebration being established to stamp out an undocumented pagan practice.... well, to be honest, that's about as believable as a claim that Hallowe'en was a Christianized version of "Hari Pahlawan," the Indonesian version of Rembembrance Day or Memorial Day or some other honor-our-fallen-dead day. (Which, I might add, it falls very close to.)

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
Unless I am being daft, it is more like 1534 years.

:D

LOL, I forgot the BC/AD thing. Thank you for the clarification. I was assuming they were both AD or something.

So, they had halloween for like 1500 or so years, and the catholics stamped that tradition out of every person around except in a small corner of the planet? A corner that was ignored by everybody?

Hmmm, I find that rather a stretch of the imagination.

Hitler tried to stamp out the Jews and their traditions, but it hardly worked. You have no idea how many people wanted to cling to the traditions of their ancestors. I cling to traditions, and even if some religious zealots came around and told me I couldn't have Halloween anymore, I would still try to celebrate in some small way because it's hard to just forget it. Even though I'm not a christian I still love christmas. There are aspects to the tradition that a person enjoys no matter what religion they are. I don't celebrate it the same way christians do, but most people around me are christians.

1500 years is a long time. I find it rather coincidental that a similarly named holiday was "brought about" by the catholics.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons

So, they had halloween for like 1500 or so years, and the catholics stamped that tradition out of every person around except in a small corner of the planet? A corner that was ignored by everybody?


No. "They," (the Celts) had Samhain in a small corner of the
planet for about 800 years. It wasn't a festival, however. It was the name of a month. Then it was stamped out, along with the rest of the calendar, mostly by the (Mithraic) Roman legions. Then about 600 years after that, Pope Gregory created a holiday festival named (loosely translated) "All Hallow's Day" halfway across the continent.

I find it astonishing that you think they could be related.

I find it less astonishing, but more telling, that you're arguing from incredulity, not from sources. If you can find a pre-1850 reference to a festival of "Samhain," I'll concede the point.

[Eos of the Eons]

Yep, I'm arguing from ignorance, but also honestly posting my thoughts. I'm wondering a lot, so will keep learning as long as people with information continue to post.

I find it less astonishing, but more telling, that you're arguing from incredulity, not from sources. If you can find a pre-1850 reference to a festival of "Samhain," I'll concede the point.

Right now I feel really dumb because I don't much understand your question. 1850 AD or BC?

Edited to add:

Samhain (Scots Gaelic: Samhuinn) literally means “summer's end.� In Scotland and Ireland, Halloween is known as Oßche Shamhna, while in Wales it is Nos Calan Gaeaf, the eve of the winter's calend, or first. With the rise of Christianity, Samhain was changed to Hallowmas, or All Saints' Day, to commemorate the souls of the blessed dead who had been canonized that year

In early Ireland, people gathered at the ritual centers of the tribes, for Samhain was the principal calendar feast of the year.
http://www.celticspirit.org/samhain.htm

And if you find the whole "catholics stamped out pagan traditions in order to make them their own and better", then you'll hate this whole entire article:

http://www.celticspirit.org/samhain.htm

As a result of their efforts to wipe out "pagan" holidays, such as Samhain, the Christians succeeded in effecting major transformations in it.

[epepke]

Originally posted by c4ts
?

I tried to post this from the cell phone, and it got mangled.

Real post:

Except that it's a Christian holiday. November 1 was the most important holiday to the early Christians. It was a once-a-year meeting of secret Christians in Rome. It is still commemorated by the Catholic Church as "All Saint's Day." The day after is "All Soul's Day" or the "Day of the Dead," still celebrated in Hispanic Catholic countries.

Halloween is "All Hallow's Evening," that is the evening, or night/day before, the hallowed day. "Hallowed," of course, means made holy. Trick-or-treat is a dim cultural echo of the time when Christians traveled in disguise to the meetings and stopped at safe houses along the way.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by new drkitten
I believe that this is a myth. All Hallow's Eve (the Catholic holiday) was created in 835 by the current pope (Gregory IV. if my sources are right). In the ninth century, the Celts were a little bit of noise, at the extreme fringes of civilization (or even beyond the fringes), and completely without cultural influence in Europe. Why would Greg even bother "appropriating" from the Celts, when he had much more pressing issues in southern Europe and Germany.

The primary source for the claim of "Christianizing" Samhain comes from Sir James Frazier, author of "The Golden Bough," and much of his conclusions must now be rejected as completely unsupported. Just as a simple for-instance, there is STILL no written evidence supporting the mere existence of the Samhain festival that dates to earlier than about the late 18th century; the Celtic calendar had a month named Samhain, but to the best of my knowledge, no primary sources mention the Samhain festival itself.

If you actually know of any primary sources that support the Christianization of Samhain, I'd be interested to see them. But I'm afraid that my readings put this particular belief in the same camp as the "thousands of witches burned to death all over England during the Burning Times" myth.

You may well be correct on the issue of 'Samhain' not being appropriated by the Church. But it does appear plausible that, if Samhain was a major festival, the Church would find it expedient to supplant it with a Christian festival. Many pagan holy sites were re-concecrated as Christian shrines. Many churches were built on traditionally religious sites. Standing stones had crosses added or superimposed on the pagan symbols. Wells were dedicated to Saints. Pagan practices and ceremonies were also Christianised, like Rogationtide, Easter, Christmas. It was a way of saying our god has taken over from the old gods -- our magic is more powerful.

A pagan festival that marked the beginning of winter in the north with bonfires and rituals to ward off evil spirits in the dark days to come certainly makes sense in paganism. If such a festival was widely celebrated, it also makes sense that the Church would try to Christianize it. But to say it was exclusively Celtic and called 'Samhain' might be stretching it, I agree. I suppose we would have to find out why Gregory IV ordered November 1 as All Hallows Day in the first place, since it was previously celebrated at different times. [might there be a primary source for this?]

Primary written sources for Celtic beliefs and practices are, of course, frought with dificulties. The Roman writers are notoriously propagandist with regard to the Celts.

I would genuinely be interested to know what primary sources you have consulted on this issue.

BTW, I agree about witch executions in England -- probably around a thousand at most. However, most people say "thousands of innocent men, women, and children in the European witch hunts."

My source for information was Britannica 2003 Ultimate Reference Suite CD ROM, from which I quote (my bold):

In the late 4th century a feast of All Martyrs was observed by the East Syrians on May 13 and by the West Syrians and Byzantines on the Sunday after Pentecost. Pope Boniface IV received from the emperor Phocas (reigned 602–610) the Pantheon at Rome, which he dedicated on May 13 to St. Mary and All Martyrs. The Feast of All Saints at Rome on November 1 was promulgated by Pope Gregory IV in 835, in place of the May festival. Some authorities believe this festival to be of Irish origin; others relate it to a chapel of All Saints in St. Peter's Basilica established by Pope Gregory III (reigned 731–741).

Samhain: also spelled Samain (Celtic: “End of Summer�), one of the most important and sinister calendar festivals of the Celtic year. At Samhain, held on November 1, the world of the gods was believed to be made visible to mankind, and the gods played many tricks on their mortal worshipers; it was a time fraught with danger, charged with fear, and full of supernatural episodes. Sacrifices and propitiations of every kind were thought to be vital, for without them the Celts believed they could not prevail over the perils of the season or counteract the activities of the deities. Samhain was an important precursor to Halloween (q.v.).


also called All Hallows' Eve or All Hallows' Evening a holy or hallowed evening observed on October 31, the eve of All Saints' Day. In modern times, it is the occasion for pranks and for children requesting treats or threatening tricks.

In ancient Britain and Ireland, the Celtic festival of Samhain eve was observed on October 31, at the end of summer. This date was also the eve of the new year in both Celtic and Anglo-Saxon times and was the occasion for one of the ancient firefestivals when huge bonfires were set on hilltops to frighten away evil spirits. The date was connected with the return of herds from pasture, and laws and land tenures were renewed. The souls of the dead were thought to revisit their homes on this day, and the autumnal festival acquired sinister significance, with ghosts, witches, hobgoblins, black cats, fairies, and demons of all kinds said to be roamingabout. It was the time to placate the supernatural powers controlling the processesof nature. In addition, Halloween was thought to be the most favourable time for divinations concerning marriage, luck, health, and death.

The pagan observances influenced the Christian festival of All Hallows' Eve, celebrated on the same date.

The number of trials and executions varied widely according to time and place, but in fact no more than about 110,000 persons in all were tried for witchcraft, and no more than 40,000 to 60,000 executed. Although these figures are alarming, they do not remotely approach the feverishly exaggerated claims of some 20th-century writers.

[The Mighty Thor]

new drkitten
That's close to my point. Druidism was essentially stamped out as a religious practice by the invading Romans in the early centuries of the Empire (1st and 2nd century CE). After the fall of Rome, Druidism (and Celtic culture in general) became largely a non-issue as the missionaries re-established Christianity in the hinterlands along the lines of direction provided by the southern Europeans, aided by the military conquests of the Franks during the empire of Charlemagne.

The Celts were not that marginalised in Europe in Roman times and Druidism survived until the 7th Century in Celtic domains well after Romanisation.

The Celtic Church had enough influence to challenge Rome on the date of Easter and to require the Synod of Whitby (663/664) to be held in order to universalize the Roman practice.

Although Italy was not Celtic, that is not to say that a pagan festival was not held on November 1 or thereabouts that was a potential competitor for the faith of the people.

[The Mighty Thor]

newdrkitten,

I really don't understand your argument. Are you saying that there was no November 1 tradition of a festival at all, until Gregory IV declared All Hallows, and that some of the traditions mentioned like bonfires, warding off evil spirits, spirits roaming the earth, Lords of Misrule traditions etc. did not exist until then? So, for the traditions that survive we have to thank Gregory IV?

If you are not saying that, then where do you think the pagan traditions came from?

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by epepke
.

Halloween is "All Hallow's Evening," that is the evening, or night/day before, the hallowed day. "Hallowed," of course, means made holy. Trick-or-treat is a dim cultural echo of the time when Christians traveled in disguise to the meetings and stopped at safe houses along the way.

OTOH, certain traditions of Halloween, i.e. the jack-o-lantern, sound much more pagan in origin than christian (kind of like the easter bunny and boughs of holly).

[Darat]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
OTOH, certain traditions of Halloween, i.e. the jack-o-lantern, sound much more pagan in origin than christian (kind of like the easter bunny and boughs of holly).

I think that is perhaps only a recent sensibility and then only in certain "Protestant Christian" countries. Look at Saint day festivals in a country like Spain to see a totally wild and exuberant yet traditional Christian celebration.

As for the holly and druids and Celts and so on… well romantic history is often so much more believable then the real stuff. :)

(Edited for '.)

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons


Right now I feel really dumb because I don't much understand your question. 1850 AD or BC?



1850 AD.

Basically, the entire "Samhain festival" thing, according to the
best primary sources I've been able to find, was created out of thin air by the early 20th century anthropologists like Sir James Frazier and his ilk. Prior to this, there is no evidence of anything like a Druidic hallowe'en festival under the name Samhain.

This is actually fairly typical of the sort of scholarship that was practiced by Frazier's school; he was interested in establishing what amounted to universal, almost theosophical, principles of religion and spiritualism and such, and so he would often (I would argue, routinely) distort findings and in extreme cases even make stuff up in order to show the universal underpinnings of a particular practice. He would similiarly find (or imagine) detailed theological and ritual similarities between otherwise completely isolated practices separated in some cases by entire oceans.

Check out the "The Golden Bough" and some of its criticisms; it's really rather interesting, in an appalling sense.

Unfortunately, the Celtic practices community has absorbed many (most) of the scholarly practices from the various newage neopagans (hardly surprising, since the two groups overlap so strongly; I've met hundreds of "Celtic" neopagans, but never a single one who practices Lappi knot magic), especially the Gardners, who fundamentally made it all up. The Gardners dug Celticism in to a huge hole from which it has never recovered. Fortunately, the scholarly standards among neopagans are such that they never even notice that they are merely quoting each other, without any reference to actual history, archeology, folklore studies, or anything like that.

For that reason, I don't take your "Celtic Spirit" site as a much more authentic source on history than I do the "Rapture Ready" people.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor


Although Italy was not Celtic, that is not to say that a pagan festival was not held on November 1 or thereabouts that was a potential competitor for the faith of the people.

Which makes Hallowe'en not Celtic!

I don't know of any agrarian society that doesn't hold some sort of harvest-season festival; even the extremely Protestant Puritans established the Thanksgiving festival upon arrival in the New World. At approximately the same time of year that the Celts were celebrating their harvest festival, the Czechs would have celebrated Obzinky, the Cherokees danced the Corn Dance, the Romans held Cerealia. the Canaanites held the Feast of Harvest In-Gathering (and danced around bonfires), and the Koreans dress in costume and perform to be given food and drink at the Chu'sok.

Hmmm. Dress in costume and perform for food, while dancing around bonfires. "Obviously," modern Hallowe'een traditions are survivals from the prehistoric Cannanites and Koreans that used to inhabit central Italy and England, yes?

Not really. There are simply a few basic elements that human psychology seems to demand putting into a festival at harvest time, and so we shouldn't be surprised to see them reappear independently all over the world. It wouldn't be surprising to see the Pope establish a feast day on the 1st of November and to have it be used as an excuse for some of the local practices regarding harvest festivals (such as eating too much, dancing, and lighting bonfires because it's finally dark enough to enjoy them).

If you recall, your original claims have variously been :


Christians appropriated the traditional Samhain of the Celts



Samhain was an important precursor to Halloween



(Quoted) The Halloween observance originated with the Celtic Druids around 700 B.C.


In ancient Britain and Ireland, the Celtic festival of Samhain eve was observed on October 31, at the end of summer.



My counterclaim is that the first three statements above assign an entirely undeserved degree of importance to the Celtic practices, and that there is in fact, no evidence predating the 19th century about the existence of a "Celtic festival of Samhain eve." (Samhain was a calendar division -- you might as well speak of the modern festival of February.)

[drkitten]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor

Primary written sources for Celtic beliefs and practices are, of course, frought with dificulties. The Roman writers are notoriously propagandist with regard to the Celts.

Even propagandists generally do a good job of getting the basic facts right; there's little propaganda value to be made out of lying about the name and date of a harvest festival. Similarly, the Christian historians such as the Venerable Bede and to a much lesser extent Geoffrey of Monmouth do a reasonable job of speaking to the culture and practices. (As a perhaps more accessible example, Sir Thomas Malory often mentions the Candlemass celebrations at Camelot, which fell between Christmas and Easter. It's hard not to infer from this that Malory, at least, knew about a festival named Candlemass, even if Arthur himself never celebrated it, or never even existed.)

For this reason, other "primary" sources in this context are the myths and legends such as the Mabinogion and the Fenian cycle, which describe the Celtic lifestyle.

Howver, let me reverse the question. The Britannica evidently has no problem asserting the existence of the Samhain festival. Did they bother to cite their sources at all? The problem with this "Hallowe'een started as a a Celtic festival" belief is it's turned into one of these free-floating beliefs like "Before Columbus, people believed the world was flat" that never seem to find support, but also never seem to die.....

[c4ts]

Originally posted by epepke
I tried to post this from the cell phone, and it got mangled.

Real post:

Except that it's a Christian holiday. November 1 was the most important holiday to the early Christians. It was a once-a-year meeting of secret Christians in Rome. It is still commemorated by the Catholic Church as "All Saint's Day." The day after is "All Soul's Day" or the "Day of the Dead," still celebrated in Hispanic Catholic countries.

Halloween is "All Hallow's Evening," that is the evening, or night/day before, the hallowed day. "Hallowed," of course, means made holy. Trick-or-treat is a dim cultural echo of the time when Christians traveled in disguise to the meetings and stopped at safe houses along the way.

I realize that, but I thought they took the idea of one day where all the dead get to return, and said it was the same as Samhain in order to convert more pagans. It's like when they said Mitras was really Jesus.

[Eos of the Eons]

People did believe the world was flat. Weren't some threatened to death if they tried to show otherwise?

On my lunch break, wish I had more time...

[drkitten]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
People did believe the world was flat. Weren't some threatened to death if they tried to show otherwise?


Not to the best of my knowledge, since the days of Classical Greece. There are a lot of documents lying around from the Middle Ages that indicate that the educated classes, at least, were well aware that the world is round. Dante, for example, was very clear about his use of a round world in his Commedia, and even referred to what we would now recognize as time zones -- for example, at dawn at the foot of Mount Purgatory, Virgil says;

Originally posted by Dante (Purgatorio, Canto III)
'Tis evening there already where is buried
The body within which I cast a shadow;


but of course, he says it in Italian and it sounds much better.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by new drkitten
Even propagandists generally do a good job of getting the basic facts right; there's little propaganda value to be made out of lying about the name and date of a harvest festival. Similarly, the Christian historians such as the Venerable Bede and to a much lesser extent Geoffrey of Monmouth do a reasonable job of speaking to the culture and practices. (As a perhaps more accessible example, Sir Thomas Malory often mentions the Candlemass celebrations at Camelot, which fell between Christmas and Easter. It's hard not to infer from this that Malory, at least, knew about a festival named Candlemass, even if Arthur himself never celebrated it, or never even existed.)

For this reason, other "primary" sources in this context are the myths and legends such as the Mabinogion and the Fenian cycle, which describe the Celtic lifestyle.

Howver, let me reverse the question. The Britannica evidently has no problem asserting the existence of the Samhain festival. Did they bother to cite their sources at all? The problem with this "Hallowe'een started as a a Celtic festival" belief is it's turned into one of these free-floating beliefs like "Before Columbus, people believed the world was flat" that never seem to find support, but also never seem to die.....

I understand your points. I'll have to look into the evidence, or lack thereof, for Samhain having been a harvest 'time marker' celebrated in the Celtic calendar as a "get prepared for the dark, cold days of winter" festival that included bonfires and driving out evil spirits. I understood that Samhain was a 'season marker' rather than a month. I'm glad you brought the subject up. It is good to clarify what is myth and what is historical fact, although the further back we go, the more difficult are the sources, especially for non-literate societies.

I use Britannica as an easily accessible reference, but you are correct in saying it does not provide references for the Samhain/Halloween connection, or for the practices supposedly connected with the putative Samhain.

The whole "Christian syncretism with paganism" idea seems to be denied especially by Roman Catholic apologists, however. So, there does appear to be an agenda there. Yet there are many examples of Christianity "putting its stamp" on pagan traditions, and it would be surprising if Halloween was not another example.

Would you object to the statement that All Hallows was instituted as a Christian festival by Pope Gregory IV to be held on November 1 and that this festival coincided (by intent or accident) with various pagan "end of summer" festivals that were traditionally connected with "a loosening of the veil between the spirit world and the mundane world" and which involved the lighting of bonfires and a symbolic renewal of the hearth fire?

That is a long way from "Samhain was appropriated by Christianity", I agree, and I thank you for pointing out the my error in hastily attributing direct cause and effect.

In the more general sense, though, it would be interesting to find out (if possible) how 'the folk' viewed Gregory's fiat. I certainly can't imagine that people suddenly gave up their traditional beliefs and attitudes about "a time for the dead", the symbolic death of the land, and the need to prepare for winter at Gregory's pronouncement, and all started to regard Halloween as a night of quiet contemplation before the Mass on All Hallows. No doubt, this is what the Church intended, but pagan survivals were (and are) notoriously hard to eradicate in the popular culture.

Another pointer to the awareness of Christianity of the importance of this "time marker" was the introduction of November 2 as All Souls Day in the 11c.

Even later, in the 11th century, the church would make November 2 All Souls' Day, a day to honor all the dead: all the Christian souls in the half-world of Purgatory. Catholic doctrine clearly reveals the liminal or threshold connection between the two worlds: "that the souls which, on departing from the body, are not perfectly cleansed from venial sins, or have not fully atoned for past transgressions, are debarred from the Beatific Vision, and that the faithful on earth can help them by prayers, alms deeds and especially by the sacrifice of the Mass." (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1910: 'All Soul's Day').

All Soul's Day was accepted by Odilo (died 1048) in the Cluniac monasteries, and its observance spread through the Celtic north before it was introduced into Italy.

This seems to point to an attempt by the Church to Christianise a long-established folk tradition linked to spirits of the dead that occured around the same date. The 'liminal or threshold connection between the two worlds' seems very like the Celtic idea of a veil being raised to reveal the otherworld.

I do have (in a box somewhere, unfortunately) many books on the Celts, a translation of the Mabinogion, and some 'Lives' of the Saints, since I once researched the Merlin (Myrddin) myth as being connected to Alcluith (now Dumbarton) and the king of the Britons, Rydderch, and to St Mungo (Kentigern) in the 6th c. I must see what I can find out from these, but primary sources are dubious for this period, as you will be aware.

[The Mighty Thor]

I came across this from Wlipedia:

Religious viewpoints

The majority of Christians ascribe no doctrinal significance to Halloween, treating it as a purely secular entity devoted to celebrating imaginary spooks and handing out candy. The secular celebration of Halloween may loom larger in contemporary imagination than does All Saints Day.

The mingling of Christian and "pagan" traditions in the early centuries following the founding of the Christian Church have left many modern Christians uncertain of their responsibility towards this holiday. Some fundamentalist Christian groups consider Halloween a Pagan holiday and may refer to it as "The most evil day of the year", refusing to allow their children to participate. Among these groups it is believed to have developed Satanic influences, as have many other Pagan practices. It used to be that on Halloween, schools would give children boxes to collect pennies in for UNICEF, but after these fundamentalist Christians complained that the schools were endorsing a Pagan religion, most schools stopped distributing such boxes. Other Christians, however, continue to connect this holiday with All Saints Day. Some modern Christian churches commonly offer a "fall festival" or harvest-themed alternative to Halloween celebrations. Still other Christians hold the view that the holiday is "safe"; that is, that it is not Satanic in origin or practice and that it holds no threat to the spiritual lives of children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

If my bolded part is true, this would seem like a terribly mean-spirited act of "sour grapes" on behalf of the fundamentalists.

:(

[Anathema]

That's indeed sad news. I remember well carrying my orange box and hollering "trick or treat for UNICEF!" I'm sure the fundies had more animus against the practice than simply it's allegedly pagan origins --- they don't want no munny goin' tuh thuh seekrit wun-world gubment....

[c4ts]

Originally posted by new drkitten
Not to the best of my knowledge, since the days of Classical Greece. There are a lot of documents lying around from the Middle Ages that indicate that the educated classes, at least, were well aware that the world is round. Dante, for example, was very clear about his use of a round world in his Commedia, and even referred to what we would now recognize as time zones -- for example, at dawn at the foot of Mount Purgatory, Virgil says;



but of course, he says it in Italian and it sounds much better.

Ptolemy said the world was round, but he also said that the universe revolved around it.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by Anathema
That's indeed sad news. I remember well carrying my orange box and hollering "trick or treat for UNICEF!" I'm sure the fundies had more animus against the practice than simply it's allegedly pagan origins --- they don't want no munny goin' tuh thuh seekrit wun-world gubment....

Do you know if this really happened? I'm not sure how trustworthy Wikipedia is.

BTW, your avatar brought back memories of that scene and some chuckling. "Just a flesh wound!", indeed.:D

[Anathema]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor
Do you know if this really happened? I'm not sure how trustworthy Wikipedia is.

BTW, your avatar brought back memories of that scene and some chuckling. "Just a flesh wound!", indeed.:D No, I haven't actually looked into it --- I know haven't seen or heard of the practice in about 30 years, but have no evidence it died at the hands of the fundiwhackers. I'll do some poking around to cross-check.

The avatar was the product of my recent prowlings in and around the threads of lifegagger and 1"Christ --- they both fit the "it's only a fleshwound" gag to a "T" --- armless, legless, spurting blood, and fully in denial of the obivous. :D

Cheers

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by new drkitten
Not to the best of my knowledge, since the days of Classical Greece. There are a lot of documents lying around from the Middle Ages that indicate that the educated classes, at least, were well aware that the world is round. Dante, for example, was very clear about his use of a round world in his Commedia, and even referred to what we would now recognize as time zones -- for example, at dawn at the foot of Mount Purgatory, Virgil says;

quote: Originally posted by Dante (Purgatorio, Canto III)
'Tis evening there already where is buried
The body within which I cast a shadow;

but of course, he says it in Italian and it sounds much better.

Wow! Dante posted it! I guess that was on the Celestial Orbs Web, or the Divine aethernet.:) :)

Sorry, I couldn't resist;)

[Beerina]

> - Across the Bible Belt this Halloween, some little ghosts and
> goblins might get shooed away by the neighbors

Hmmmm, might be a good time to resurrect the Tricks portion of the deal from it's current vestigal state.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor

The whole "Christian syncretism with paganism" idea seems to be denied especially by Roman Catholic apologists, however. So, there does appear to be an agenda there. Yet there are many examples of Christianity "putting its stamp" on pagan traditions, and it would be surprising if Halloween was not another example.

Would you object to the statement that All Hallows was instituted as a Christian festival by Pope Gregory IV to be held on November 1 and that this festival coincided (by intent or accident) with various pagan "end of summer" festivals that were traditionally connected with "a loosening of the veil between the spirit world and the mundane world" and which involved the lighting of bonfires and a symbolic renewal of the hearth fire?

That is a long way from "Samhain was appropriated by Christianity", I agree, and I thank you for pointing out the my error in hastily attributing direct cause and effect.



I wouldn't object to that revision; it also applies much more broadly to other ostensibly "Christian" festivals such as Easter and Christmas. A lot of work has been done by various folklorists in trying to trace the ancestry of the various traditions -- the Christmas tree, for example, is (I think) German, while Easter eggs come from Eastern Europe (Russia? Poland?). And there are also a number of nut-case screwball religions out there that object to these secularized practices as well. My sister, for example, belongs to a cult that refuses to celebrate "Christmas," on the ground that "mass" refers to "a service for the dead" (as in a requiem mass), and Christ isn't dead, and, et cetera et cetera . (For the sake of the kids, however, her religion does allow the celebration of "Ho-ho," short for "Household Holiday," which involves Santa Claus (not St. Nicolas) distributing presents to my nieces.) [SFX: Mel Blanc doing "Daffy Duck."]

[c4ts]

I remember an episode of the Daily Show a few years back where this minister shot Santa Claus in front of a bunch of kids. I always thought that was faked, but now I'm beginning to think that was part of an actual service.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by new drkitten
My sister, for example, belongs to a cult that refuses to celebrate "Christmas," on the ground that "mass" refers to "a service for the dead" (as in a requiem mass), and Christ isn't dead, and, et cetera et cetera . (For the sake of the kids, however, her religion does allow the celebration of "Ho-ho," short for "Household Holiday," which involves Santa Claus (not St. Nicolas) distributing presents to my nieces.) [SFX: Mel Blanc doing "Daffy Duck."]

What does she belong to Ive never heard of such things.

[Kitty Chan]

As for Unicef they still have boxes here in Canada I remember we as kids were happy to help other kids, but then again I was at the tale end of when Halloween was really good cause we used to stop in for pie at one house.

Then times have changed mind you Halloween is kinda improving as of late with the marketing blitz.

But Unicef does not give the boxes to the kids anymore they just show up in stores now. The reason as I understand is that kids were getting robbed by other big kids of the boxes so it was stopped. :(

[c4ts]

Actually the fundies are to blame for ending the Unicef boxes. You used to be able to pick them up at public schools, but the fundamentalists argued that this was a government institution raising money for devil worship because it was on Halloween.

[Darat]

Originally posted by c4ts
Actually the fundies are to blame for ending the Unicef boxes. You used to be able to pick them up at public schools, but the fundamentalists argued that this was a government institution raising money for devil worship because it was on Halloween.

Please tell me this is a joke?

[c4ts]

The last time I tried to pick up one of those boxes, that's pretty much what they told me, but it might have just been the local school's policy. On the Unicef website, it says they still give them out if you order them.

[Eos of the Eons]

After Christianity rose to power, the new religious authorities tried to stamp out the traditional pagan festivals and replace them with Christian holy days. By the eighth century, "Samhain" had become All Saints' Day and was celebrated on November 1. The day was also known as All Hallowsmass ("hallowed" meaning holy or sanctified) and the evening before was called All Hallows eve, or simply Hallowe'en.
http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/index.html?id=163&lid=1185#n6
Just some more on the history of Halloween.

I would have to say the general consensus (except by fundies) is that christians stole halloween, or rather somebody else was doing it first.

It most certainly isn't the christians' original idea to mark the changing of the season. It was never for devil worship either or about death or spirits. Festivals provided a structured way for pastoral communities to celebrate the passing of the old season and prepare for the new. For the ancient Celts, the start of winter was marked by the festival of "Samhain". The word is pronounced "sow-in" -- with "sow" rhyming with cow -- and can be loosely translated as "end of the warm season." As well as marking the closing of the harvest and the beginning of winter, Samhain was the start of the Celtic new year...
...the Druids were actually the professional class in Celtic society. They performed the functions of modern day teachers, doctors, judges, poets and priests. When the Romans and Christians wiped out the Druids, most of the folklore of the Celts was lost. As a result, we know very little about the practices and beliefs surrounding Celtic festivals, including Samhain.


One claim that seems to have been thoroughly disproved is that "Samhain" is the name of a Celtic god of the underworld. The fundamentalists who claim this are unable to provide any historic citations. They simply seem to be trying to make Samhain fit their own Satanic obsessions about Halloween.