voting fraud in Florida- already!

[TillEulenspiegel]

This little tid-bit in from the Tampa Trib.
Seems that people in Florida are getting slammed ( someone's changing party affiliation) double registered and dropped from the rolls. This is widespread the FDLE is on it and may bring in the FBI. Seems that most instances of these occurrences are taking place around and on the campuses of Florida collages. Vote Hackers?

Story: http://www.tampatrib.com/News/MGBOZRPVL0E.html

[Charlie Monoxide]

It's also happening in Nevada. Last night (local nesscast from Reno), a man and his wife attempted to vote at an advance poll, was told they weren't registered. He claimed that he and his wife registered at a kiosk, and even has the receipts given to them. Apparently the kiosk registration people didn't feel obligated to turn in ALL the registeration forms, especially the ones that had Democrat, as their affiliation.

Charlie (GWB is well on his way to steal another one) Monoxide

[Questioninggeller]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
This little tid-bit in from the Tampa Trib.
Seems that people in Florida are getting slammed ( someone's changing party affiliation) double registered and dropped from the rolls. This is widespread the FDLE is on it and may bring in the FBI. Seems that most instances of these occurrences are taking place around and on the campuses of Florida collages. Vote Hackers?

Story: http://www.tampatrib.com/News/MGBOZRPVL0E.html

People should be smarter than this...

One student, 24-year-old Tressa Major, said she was hustled on the first day of classes at Hillsborough Community College this semester when she was approached by workers asking her to sign a petition to legalize medical marijuana.

``They said, `To make your signature valid, you need to register Republican.' I told them I was a Democrat. They said, `You can change later, you can change later.' I said, `That's kind of weird - the Republican Party sponsoring medical marijuana.' ''

No one knows what group was working the campus that day.

[Chaos]

I´ve noticed this before... Do you really have to give a party affiliation to register for voting?

This sounds highly odd, since you don´t have to do that here in Germany - in fact, you don´t have to register for voting, either, since everybody is registered by default.

Not to mention that - if these incidents are genuine - they show that having to give a party affiliation is an open invitation to registration fraud.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Chaos
I´ve noticed this before... Do you really have to give a party affiliation to register for voting?

This sounds highly odd, since you don´t have to do that here in Germany - in fact, you don´t have to register for voting, either, since everybody is registered by default.

Not to mention that - if these incidents are genuine - they show that having to give a party affiliation is an open invitation to registration fraud.

It varies by state, but in Nevada, you do. It sounds like you do in Florida too.

[Nyarlathotep]

From the article

Of the registrations collected by Arno, Republican National Committee senior adviser Mindy Tucker Fletcher said, ``Obviously, we hired them to register more Republicans. ... They assured us that every voter registration is legitimate.''

Translation, "We hired a group to get more people to our side, we never DREAMED they might actually use fraudulent means to do so. After all, everyone who registers to vote would want to register Republican, right?" (innocent look follows batting of eyes)

The woman is either apallingly naive or appallingly dishonest. You can probably guess which of the two I am leaning toward.

[crimresearch]

You have to put down some party affiliation to register in many states...there are NO states where you are required to vote for the candidates of that particular party, in the general election...

The affiliation is for controlling who votes in each *party's* own primaries, to select their own candidates without being flooded by opposition voters..

And as far as showing up at a polling place and claiming that you are really-truly-honestly registered to vote, even though you have no voter's registration card...and expecting people to accept scraps of paper in your pocket from some mystery person...

Yeah, nothing to be skeptical about there...
:rolleyes:

[TillEulenspiegel]

Well , evidently it's getting worse. There are now reports that some people are rounding up absentee ballots who have rep[resented themselves as official Poll Workers.

Aside: Air Force 1 ( The helicopter) flew over my house a while back accompanied by 4 F-16's with afterburners ablaze. Bush went from Tampa to Lakeland and is headed to Melbourne. Florida that is.
Man those jets are loud. My whole house shook. Their altitude was about 700ft. I could almost read the damn letters on the tail.

[Nasarius]

Originally posted by crimresearch

And as far as showing up at a polling place and claiming that you are really-truly-honestly registered to vote, even though you have no voter's registration card

As Chaos pointed out, the whole idea of having to register to vote is ridiculous. We already have, for example, Social Security numbers, so why not just use those as a unique identifier to keep track of who has already voted?

(edit) By the way, I have no idea what a "voter's registration card" is. I'm registered, and I've already voted by absentee ballot.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel

Aside: Air Force 1 ( The helicopter) flew over my house a while back accompanied by 4 F-16's with afterburners ablaze.

Er, yeah, ok. That must be one damn fast helicopter. Or were the f16s headed straight up? Your anecdote fits nicely into the other spews of bs offered as facts in this thread. ;)




As to party affiliation, Independent is a choice in Florida. I believe it is correct that Independents cannot vote in either Dem or Rep primaries.

[SRW]

Years ago I registered to vote. Ford was the president, and I felt the republican party had purged all their diamonds so I was going to register republican. Well the people working at the registration booth, asked the usual questions:

1. Have you stolen candy from any babies today? No.

2. Did you foreclose on a widow and her staring children? No

3. Do you know how to wear a sheet with a pointy hat? No.

4. Do you believe Jesus Christ is you lord and savior and will crush all who oppose him? No

I was cast out and made to register as a Democrat.

There process was much simpler.

Is your name Joe Leroy Buddies. Yes.

Ok so we are now going to register you as Joe Leroy Buddies, Joe Buddies, Leroy Buddies, and Leroy Joe buddies
Thanks for registering, please vote early and vote often..

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by hammegk
Er, yeah, ok. That must be one damn fast helicopter. Or were the f16s headed straight up? Your anecdote fits nicely into the other spews of bs offered as facts in this thread. ;)


They were intersepting a private plane that violated restricted airspace...it happened twice in Melborn.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-10-23-aircraft-over-bush_x.htm

[hammegk]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
They were intersepting a private plane that violated restricted airspace...it happened twice in Melborn.


Would you agree "accompanied by" doesn't fit the facts?

[TillEulenspiegel]

having accompaniment or companions or escort

Perhaps You would prefer Escorted

[SRW]

Originally posted by Nasarius
As Chaos pointed out, the whole idea of having to register to vote is ridiculous. We already have, for example, Social Security numbers, so why not just use those as a unique identifier to keep track of who has already voted?

(edit) By the way, I have no idea what a "voter's registration card" is. I'm registered, and I've already voted by absentee ballot.

I believe the act of registration has to do with districting, a way of finding out what the distribution of party members are in a district or area.

[Earthborn]

At least there won't be any more of those confusing Butterfly ballots. Voting Machines (http://www.boomchicago.nl/Section/Latest-News/BoomChicagoVotingMachine) have interfaces that make it easy for people to vote the right candidate. :)

[SRW]

We have our new ballots this year they look like this


------------ -------------> John Kerry

------------- ------------> George Bush

The instruction say fill in the arrow for the canidate you with to vote for like this


-------------------------------------> Joe Canidate


Many of the early ballots have come in with the canidates name circled. It's going to be a long election night.

For some reason the spaces do not come out there should be an inch of space in the center of the line.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by Earthborn
At least there won't be any more of those confusing Butterfly ballots. Voting Machines (http://www.boomchicago.nl/Section/Latest-News/BoomChicagoVotingMachine) have interfaces that make it easy for people to vote the right candidate. :) Good one. :D

[Lisa Simpson]

Something similar:

http://wearabledissent.com/101/floridavote.html

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by Nasarius
As Chaos pointed out, the whole idea of having to register to vote is ridiculous. We already have, for example, Social Security numbers, so why not just use those as a unique identifier to keep track of who has already voted?For starts, your Social Security card says on it, "For Social Security and Tax Purposes Only - Not For Identification."

Second - someone stole my wallet.

I note an interesting inconsistency. The Dems are the party of Big Government that wants National This and National That, all of which would obviously require Uncle Sam to know everything about you, including who you are and what kind of catsup you had on your hamburger at lunch. Remember HillaryCare, and President Clinton holding up a sample HillaryCare Health Card that all Americans would have?

But the minute the Republicans start saying people should be required to present ID when they vote, the Dems get all huffy about how this somehow disenfranchises and intimidates people.

Why is that, I (don't) wonder...?

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by SRW
Many of the early ballots have come in with the canidates name circled. It's going to be a long election night.Anyone who thinks he's designed an idiot-proof system has obviously underestimated his idiots.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by BPSCG
For starts, your Social Security card says on it, "For Social Security and Tax Purposes Only - Not For Identification."

Second - someone stole my wallet.

I note an interesting inconsistency. The Dems are the party of Big Government that wants National This and National That, all of which would obviously require Uncle Sam to know everything about you, including who you are and what kind of catsup you had on your hamburger at lunch. Remember HillaryCare, and President Clinton holding up a sample HillaryCare Health Card that all Americans would have?

But the minute the Republicans start saying people should be required to present ID when they vote, the Dems get all huffy about how this somehow disenfranchises and intimidates people.

Why is that, I (don't) wonder...?

In Germany it is like this: about a week or so before each election (national, state, county and town level) I am sent a voter ID that I have to show when I go voting; it also says where exactly I´m supposed to show up to vote. At the polling station, they have a list of everybody who is supposed to vote at that station.

It´s a foolproof system that makes sure everybody votes only once, and that prevents everybody from trying to exclude anyone from voting. Which is more than can be said about voter registration, American style.

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by Chaos
It´s a foolproof system See my post immediately preceding yours. :D
Which is more than can be said about voter registration, American style. A bunch of chimpanzees hurling feces at the voter rolls would be an improvement on the American registration system.

Seriously, let me ask you: Do German voters ever claim they are being intimidated when asked to present identification at the polls? Does anyone ever claim "disenfranchisement" because they must show identification before voting?

[Chaos]

Originally posted by BPSCG
See my post immediately preceding yours. :D

IIRC 95+ percent of all votes are valid, and those who are invalid have mostly been purposefully invalidated - like protest voters scrawling "none of the above" below the list of candidates. (Now that´s one thing voting machines would stop... ;))

A bunch of chimpanzees hurling feces at the voter rolls would be an improvement on the American registration system.

Amazing. We agree. :) That needs to be celebrated. *pops the champagne*

Seriously, let me ask you: Do German voters ever claim they are being intimidated when asked to present identification at the polls? Does anyone ever claim "disenfranchisement" because they must show identification before voting?

No, to both questions. Not that I´d ever heard of it, at least - and my former GF did volunteer work at polling stations for year, and she told me a lot about that, so I guess she´d have mentioned it if such a thing happened.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by BPSCG
A bunch of chimpanzees hurling feces at the voter rolls would be an improvement on the American registration system.

So, you've been looking at the voting reforms in Florida. Those chimps are highly trained, and are completely impartial. They'll disenfranchise people from both parties with utter neutrality. To ensure their honesty, the public are invited to examine the registration rolls afterward....although they might not want to.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Chaos
In Germany it is like this: about a week or so before each election (national, state, county and town level) I am sent a voter ID that I have to show when I go voting; it also says where exactly I´m supposed to show up to vote. At the polling station, they have a list of everybody who is supposed to vote at that station.

It´s a foolproof system that makes sure everybody votes only once, and that prevents everybody from trying to exclude anyone from voting. Which is more than can be said about voter registration, American style.

Pretty much the same process as voter registration here, with the exception of the party primaries already mentioned.

The process is intended to keep voters from voting twice.

I do find it interesting that so many people appear to have a problem with that concept.

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by crimresearch
The process is intended to keep voters from voting twice.

I do find it interesting that so many people appear to have a problem with that concept. I have a voter registration card. When I go to my polling place, I'm asked to provide name and address. They look me up on the register, give me a ticket to take to the voting booth, and cross my name off.

They do not ask to see my card.

It would be a simple matter for me to come back an hour or so later and claim to be one of my neighbors. What point is a voter registration card if you're not required to produce it or any other form of identification?

[crimresearch]

I'm guessing that the questions would arise when you tried to vote under a name that had already been crossed off.

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by crimresearch
I'm guessing that the questions would arise when you tried to vote under a name that had already been crossed off. Two of my neighbors go off to work each morning before the polls open (this is not hypothetical - they do). Say I take the day off, go to the polls around 7:30 am, vote as one neighbor, come back four hours later, vote as the other, then come back in the evening and vote as myself. I could do it and get away with it, because nobody wants to "intimidate" me by asking me to prove who I say I am.

Okay, I'm too honest to do that. But tell me it doesn't happen. Tell me it doesn't happen a lot. There are cities in this country where the number of registered voters is equal to the number of eligible voters.

[Meadmaker]

Chaos,

Are there any problems with minorities claiming voter intimidation and/or disenfranchisement in Germany?

I'm thinking particularly of Gypsies. Or maybe Turkish/German citizens.


Here in America, we had a long history of people actually doing voter intimidation. There was a lot of pressure on blacks to not register and not vote. So now, people just got into the habit of assuming that that sort of thing still goes on. I don't know if it does or not. It certainly did not in the heavily black neighborhoods where I have lived. We would routinely hear on election night of people complaining about racism if there was a snafu in the Detroit polling places, but a more likely explanation was that Detroit just ran elections poorly.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Meadmaker
Chaos,

Are there any problems with minorities claiming voter intimidation and/or disenfranchisement in Germany?

I'm thinking particularly of Gypsies. Or maybe Turkish/German citizens.


*snip*

None that I´d ever heard of. Come to think of it, I´ve never heard about any election scandal in post-war Germany, at least above county level.

The scandals we´ve had revolve around campaign finances and contributions to political parties, and lately, during the 2002 campaign, anti-semitic ads done by a Liberal Party candidate. (BTW do not confuse our Liberals, the FDP, with your concept of liberals. They´re more like a watered-down version of the Libertarian Party - I like to think of their views as "homeopathic libertarianism")

[TillEulenspiegel]

There was a review yesterday, after a successful freedom of information act lawsuit was filed by CNN , to examine the "felons list". There were thousands of names that weren't felons and had the right to vote . The majority of these people were Dems. In 2000, 173,000 were deemed ineligible excluding by mistake 50,000 eligible voters - majority Dems. with disproportionate representation by blacks. With a 537 vote margin , do You think the ones excluded could have made a difference one way or another?

Now I don't believe in grand conspiracies but isn't that peculiar?

An aside: CNN was joined in their legal action by the ACLU and Sen.Bill Nelson (D FLA) , but they didn't mention it in their article hehehe I wonder why?

Full text : http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/28/fla.vote/
Analysis : http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040702-013428-5325r.htm

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
There was a review yesterday, after a successful freedom of information act lawsuit was filed by CNN , to examine the "felons list". There were thousands of names that weren't felons and had the right to vote . The majority of these people were Dems. In 2000, 173,000 were deemed ineligible excluding by mistake 50,000 eligible voters - majority Dems. with disproportionate representation by blacks. With a 537 vote margin , do You think the ones excluded could have made a difference one way or another?

Now I don't believe in grand conspiracies but isn't that peculiar?What's the peculiar part?

It's an unfortunate fact that blacks are a disproportionate portion of the country's felon population. So it's more likely that a felon's list will have a disproportionate number of black people on it.

I'm betting the felons list includes the person's race or ethnicity. If there's a disproportionate number of black men in prison, then there's going to be a disproportionate number of black people erroneously on the list.

Is the solution to simply throw out the list? Or is it to do a better job? The Dems would have you believe that it's better to throw out the entire list unless it's perfect. That means they'd rather have 123,000 felons wrongly able to vote in Florida (173,000 less 50,000) than have only one eligible person barred.

Is that the tradeoff we want? If so, then we might as well just allow felons to vote like anyone else.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Well You didn't answer my first question, but that's OK.

BPSCG quote:
"What's the peculiar part?

It's an unfortunate fact that blacks are a disproportionate portion of the country's felon population. So it's more likely that a felon's list will have a disproportionate number of black people on it.

I'm betting the felons list includes the person's race or ethnicity. If there's a disproportionate number of black men in prison, then there's going to be a disproportionate number of black people erroneously on the list."

That a pretty egregious statement, the disproportionate representation by blacks in the justice system is a fact regardless of cause. That this should carry over to people who were not felons is a non- sequitur and offensive at that.

The peculiar part is altho the list was reviewed and vetted ( Were doing a better job..Jeb Bush) there still were people who did not belong on the list and the statistical breakdown mimics the numbers of 2000. Further even tho Florida has a specific law to open the government to public scrutiny " The Sunshine Law" Jeb and crowd made CNN go to court for the list . That kind of obfuscatory behavior seems to run in the Bush family.

[Linda]

The other interesting thing about the list of felons is that it was almost devoid of any persons with Hispanic names, an ethnic minority that traditionally votes Republican in Florida. Coincidence? I don't think so.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Linda
The other interesting thing about the list of felons is that it was almost devoid of any persons with Hispanic names, an ethnic minority that traditionally votes Republican in Florida. Coincidence? I don't think so.

And I would think that a state with such a large proportion of hispanics as Florida, there would be a lot of Hispanic felons and thus a lot of suchnames ont he list.

That last point clinches it for me. I culd have accpeted BPCSG's argument if it weren't for that tid-bit. That makes the list suspect, in my opinion.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
In 2000, 173,000 were deemed ineligible excluding by mistake 50,000 eligible voters - majority Dems.
The 50,000 statistic based on a by-the-way from a single, Leon Co. election supervisor (and perhaps the left-wing Marian Berry Civil Rights Committee that "examined" the matter and published a report that only Democrat members signed?). Talk is cheap; facts would be nice.

"One analysis concludes" ... covers any data-mining fabrication one would care to concoct.



And I wonder what data Linda uses to conclude none of the name are latino?

[TillEulenspiegel]

No the text said "one analysis showed thousands..." and did not give a number. The only mention of Leon county was that a judge struck down the law that said you can look but not copy. Marion Barry was not mentioned either article. Unless you have a different source as the basis for what You posted. ( which You didn't include.)

Are dyslexic You or just too wrapped up in Your own position that You can't even read an article and quote what it says factually ?

[BPSCG]

Jeeze, Till, don't make me fix up your quotation framing...
Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
Well You didn't answer my first question, but that's OK.

What, that 50,000 people being incorrectly purged would have made a difference in a very close election? I thought that 1) you were asking a rhetorical question, and 2) the answer is so obvious, only a numbskull would argue that it wouldn't.

What's the peculiar part?

It's an unfortunate fact that blacks are a disproportionate portion of the country's felon population. So it's more likely that a felon's list will have a disproportionate number of black people on it.

I'm betting the felons list includes the person's race or ethnicity. If there's a disproportionate number of black men in prison, then there's going to be a disproportionate number of black people erroneously on the list."


That a pretty egregious statement, the disproportionate representation by blacks in the justice system is a fact regardless of cause. That this should carry over to people who were not felons is a non- sequitur and offensive at that.You miss my point. If John Smith, black taxpayer and all around good citizen shows up to vote, he's going to be more likely to be confused with John Smith, black felon, than will John Smith, white taxpayer and all around good citizen. It's not right; I'm just explaining why decent black people are more likely to be improperly challenged at the polling station.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
No the text said "one analysis showed thousands..." and did not give a number.
Agreed.


The only mention of Leon county was that a judge struck down the law that said you can look but not copy.
Er, and this one: ""Florida's 2000 felon purge program resulted in over 50,000 legal voters being disenfranchised," said Leon County elections supervisor Ion Sancho in a written statement."

Care to admit you were wrong?


Marion Barry was not mentioned either article. Unless you have a different source as the basis for what You posted. ( which You didn't include.)
True, and odd that, since her "bi-partisan commission" (nudge,nudge, wink,wink) was in the forefront studying and reporting on the FL 2000 problems.


Are dyslexic You or just too wrapped up in Your own position that You can't even read an article and quote what it says factually ?
One of us may be, but it isn't me. ;)

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by hammegk
True, and odd that, since her "bi-partisan commission" (nudge,nudge, wink,wink) was in the forefront studying and reporting on the FL 2000 problems.Just for the record: The chairman of the Civil Rights Commission (or whatever) is Mary Francis Berry, a foaming-at-the-mouth Democrat who sees racism in anything and everything any Republican does, including spelling "Republican" with an "R." Marion ("Bitch Set Me Up") Barry (AKA, "Mr. Where's That Crack Pipe?") is the twice-former mayor of Our Nation's Capital, running now for election to the DC City Council. He is certain to win with upwards of 70% of the vote unless it turns out that he blows himself up with a suicide bomb, leaving behind a note that he's actually Osama bin Laden, in which case he'll only win 60%.

[TillEulenspiegel]

hammegk :

I see the quote in the first article, I parsed the second . so factually You are correct. However the figure is supported by other sources, so the messenger has a cleft pallet but the message remains ~ truthful. If you have other info , please post it.


BPSCG:
"Just for the record: The chairman of the Civil Rights Commission (or whatever) is Mary Francis Berry, a foaming-at-the-mouth Democrat who sees racism in anything and everything any Republican does, including spelling "Republican" with an "R." Marion ("Bitch Set Me Up") Barry (AKA, "Mr. Where's That Crack Pipe?") is the twice-former mayor of Our Nation's Capital, running now for election to the DC City Council. He is certain to win with upwards of 70% of the vote unless it turns out that he blows himself up with a suicide bomb, leaving behind a note that he's actually Osama bin Laden, in which case he'll only win 60%."

Your diatribe is as acceptable as any such other tract, I will not characterize it but even the pretense of civility and reasonable discourse is absent. Let others see what You are, and let them label it.

Common Crimesearch .call him out . Your both Conservatives.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel


I see the quote in the first article, I parsed the second . so factually You are correct.
Yes, I am, but you renege in the next part of your comments. Whatever.


However the figure is supported by other sources, so the messenger has a cleft pallet but the message remains ~ truthful.

If you have other info , please post it.
Nah, I just pointed that your staistics are as likely partisan bullsh.. as fact. If you like 'em, goodo for you. The entire disenfranchisement controversy has no more merit in reality than than today's "480 tons of explosives missing" (another piece of Democrat bs).


BPSCG:
"Just for the record: The chairman of the Civil Rights Commission (or whatever) is Mary Francis Berry, .... blah, blah, blah ....

Your diatribe is as acceptable as any such other tract, I will not characterize it but even the pretense of civility and reasonable discourse is absent. Let others see what You are, and let them label it.
We agree it was a diatribe. More to the point would you like to contend that Ms. Berry's commission report provided anything more than a partisan hack-job?

And if you were/are in FL and are unaware of the Berry commission fiasco, what were you paying attention to? A big gap for someone like yourself worrying about all that disenfranchisement.

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by hammegk
We agree it was a diatribe. Moi? :D

[hammegk]

Originally posted by BPSCG
Moi? :D
;)