Turning the famous time machine argument against atheists.

[1inChrist]

If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

[Mr. Skinny]

If I saw someone supposedly die, then come back to life several days later, I admit it would be baffling.

Don't know if I'd jump to the conclusion that that meant the person was "Mankind's Lord and Savior" though.

[Lord Emsworth]

Not just believe - know!


And how about you? Say you went back - and no Jesus at all! Let me guess - Satan, right?

[Cosmo]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

If we went back in time, we would see nothing of the sort. Jesus' story is just that - a story - that has been changed time and time again for centuries on end. The historical Jesus - if there actually was one - did nothing special in his lifetime.

Think about it. Your bible is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation. Do you honestly think it's in any way accurate? Do you honestly think that anything it says about Jesus is accurate?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Mr. Skinny
If I saw someone supposedly die, then come back to life several days later, I admit it would be baffling.

Don't know if I'd jump to the conclusion that that meant the person was "Mankind's Lord and Savior" though.

What if you have 5 different biologists there to independently confirm He was dead? What if you sat by His independently verfied dead body for the whole three days and you saw His resurrection happen up close in personal?

Remember in my above scenario I said you witnessed His life too so that means you witnessed His miracles first hand. If you saw all this would you then believe?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Cosmo
If we went back in time, we would see nothing of the sort. Jesus' story is just that - a story - that has been changed time and time again for centuries on end. The historical Jesus - if there actually was one - did nothing special in his lifetime.

Think about it. Your bible is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation. Do you honestly think it's in any way accurate? Do you honestly think that anything it says about Jesus is accurate?

You are avoiding the question. :D

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth
Not just believe - know!


And how about you? Say you went back - and no Jesus at all! Let me guess - Satan, right?



YES! THIS IS GLORIOUS NEWS I HAVE FINALLY FOUND SOMETHING THAT WOULD CONVINCE AN ATHEIST! I feel great now.

In repsonse to your question, no. Satan could easily be playing a trick on me.

[Mr. Skinny]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
What if you have 5 different biologists there to independently confirm He was dead? What if you sat by His independently verfied dead body for the whole three days and you saw His resurrection happen up close in personal?

Remember in my above scenario I said you witnessed His life too so that means you witnessed His miracles first hand. If you saw all this would you then believe?
Well, I imagine Randi, and David Blaine, and David Copperfield, could impress me with "miracles", so I wouldn't count those.

However, if five independant medical doctors of the time confirmed Jesus dead, and I saw lividity and rigor mortis set in, and then saw the dude come back to life before my eyes, I'd be inclined to believe something unusual was going on.

Still wouldn't say that made him "Mankind's Lord and Savior"

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
YES! THIS IS GLORIOUS NEWS I HAVE FINALLY FOUND SOMETHING THAT WOULD CONVINCE AN ATHEIST! I feel great now.

In repsonse to your question, no. Satan could easily be playing a trick on me.


Remember, I said the show of the stars forming "Jesus is Lord" would convince me too.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Mr. Skinny
Well, I imagine Randi, and David Blaine, and David Copperfield, could impress me with "miracles", so I wouldn't count those.

However, if five independant medical doctors of the time confirmed Jesus dead, and I saw lividity and rigor mortis set in, and then saw the dude come back to life before my eyes, I'd be inclined to believe something unusual was going on.

Still wouldn't say that made him "Mankind's Lord and Savior"

Why not?

[Cosmo]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
You are avoiding the question. :D

I most definitely am not avoiding the question. I am stating that the question is invalid because it is completely irrelevent. It's almost a certainty that, if we did go back in time, we would see nothing of the sort.

[Mr. Skinny]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why not?
Maybe cause I don't feel the need for a "Lord and Savior".

I'd just think.......wow, that weird and cool.......the dude was dead and came back to life!

[Jellby]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

Let's assume there was actually such a character. Let's assume Jesus was real and he did all that's told about him. Let's assume I had some way of testing this and knowing that's real.

Even then, I see no reason why I should worship his memory. I see no reason why I should stop being myself and start thinking otherwise. I see no reason why I should do as he says. I see no reason why I should be a sheep, and pray, and fast, and sing...

I'll grant you something. If, by someway, I could really know that, if I do some things (no matter how sensible they appear to me) I will suffer for all the eternity and if I do other things (no matter how stupid they seem) I will be happy for all the eternity, if I could be sure this is so... well, I'm not so stupid/proud, I'd give in and the the things leading to happiness. But this is a very big IF, and no matter what you say, you're not going to make me reach it, something bigger is needed.

[Jellby]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
YES! THIS IS GLORIOUS NEWS I HAVE FINALLY FOUND SOMETHING THAT WOULD CONVINCE AN ATHEIST! I feel great now.

In repsonse to your question, no. Satan could easily be playing a trick on me.

So your materialist fundamentalists are not as fundamentalist as you? Note, however, that doesn't make you right. ;)

[Jellby]

Originally posted by Cosmo
Think about it. Your bible is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation. Do you honestly think it's in any way accurate? Do you honestly think that anything it says about Jesus is accurate?

That reminds me of a joke you (all) probably know:

This young priest joined a monastery and was assigned to copy bible verses. After copying bible verses for a few days he realized a potentially serious error in what they were doing. So the young priest went to the head priest and said, “father, I have been copying these bible verses for a while now and I realized that over the years of making copies from copies, if one mistake was made it would be copied and could create a very serious problem.�
Deeply engrossed in thought, the head priest agreed with the young priest. He decided to immediately go down to the basement and compare the original with the latest copy.

After 2 days the priests became worried and decided to go see if the head priest was ok. When they made their way down to the basement they found the head priest hunched over a dusty scroll weeping. They asked him what was wrong and the head priest replied, “oh my lord, praise the Baby Jesus Lord!... the word is celebrate!�

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

Well, it would be the first real first-hand report of the event.

Did you know that there are no verifible sources that confirm the supposed life of Jesus Christ?

That the early Christian church went out of its way to reinforce the supposed gospel account of life of Jesus Christ?

What if we continue back in time and found that Hercules was indeed a real person and really strong. Does that make him the son of Zeus?

[Lisa Simpson]

Why is it that if we went back and saw it, we would have to believe in Jesus, but if you went back and saw he didn't exist it's a trick of Satan? Sorry, same rules apply. If you went back and saw Jesus didn't exist (or didn't perform miracles or get resurrected) you have to believe as well.

PS Go back and answer the bible questions, troll.

[Atlas]

1inC,

You know what would be cool, watching the angel tell Mary to give it up for God. Wouldn't it? I mean, picture yourself in her position 1inC. Especially with your knowledge about Satan's trickery. Ask yourself how quickly you'd bend over for an angel who claimed that he was God's messenger.

What is so cool is that if God ever does want to top the virgin birth he might pick someone such as yourself to carry the new messiah to term. I know you'd do anything for the Lord. Even if it went against your current beliefs. I believe you said that murder would be ok if the Lord commanded you to it.

So forget the time machine, that's a lot of woo. Put yourself in the chamber with the angel and bend over for the hope of mankind.

If you decide that would be impossible let me ask it another way.

Let's say the angel announces to you that to bring fulfillment of the prophecies someone must give birth to the antichrist and the Lord has chosen you. Would you bend over for the angel then knowing you will loose the demon spawn against all humankind?

[Mojo]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
YES! THIS IS GLORIOUS NEWS I HAVE FINALLY FOUND SOMETHING THAT WOULD CONVINCE AN ATHEIST!
It doesn't sound very practical though. For a start, you don't have a time machine.

Even if you did, you'd be in trouble if the gospels turned out not to be strictly accurate and J. C. didn't show on time.

Your main problem would seem to be the lack of a time machine though.

[apollo13]

Originally posted by Atlas:

... Ask yourself how quickly you'd bend over for an angel who claimed that he was God's messenger.


It's going to take quite some time to lose this image.

[Zamzara]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
YES! THIS IS GLORIOUS NEWS I HAVE FINALLY FOUND SOMETHING THAT WOULD CONVINCE AN ATHEIST! I feel great now.

In repsonse to your question, no. Satan could easily be playing a trick on me.

Your problem 1inC is you can't tell the difference between things that really happned and things you just made up. Before you convince anyone with this test, you will have to actually do the test! It's no good just getting people to agree in theory that they are open to looking at evidence IF you don't have any evidence.

Unless you have a time machine, what's your point?

[apollo13]

Originally posted by 1inChrist

If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

Which particular version of his teachings?

When you say "birth, life" do you have some view as to what he got up to between the ages of six months and 30? Could you enlighten us?

Would he take questions? I think we could russle up a few from this list:

Biblical errancy (http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/index.html)

[I think there was a link put on the forum a few weeks ago to a verse-by-verse analysis of the inconsistencies in the gospels. can somebody remind me where it was? - can't seem to find it.]

How about innoculations? What would we need for 1st Century Judea? Maybe not necessary, I guess, if we could get close enough to his magical healing robe.

Would be interesting to know if he actually did ever make it over to England's green and pleasant land though ;)

Can't believe I'm engaging in a debate about time travel to see a (probably) mythical bloke rise from the dead.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by apollo13
It's going to take quite some time to lose this image. My apologies apollo.

I do not take the character 1inChrist for who he says he is. Rather, he is a charlatan and an imposter. He does not stand for Christianity. He stands for stupidity.

None of his threads have to do with the Truth of God, heaven and the Christian faith. Instead he speaks of hell, lost souls, eternal torment and now time machines. Clearly he is no adherent of his proclaimed faith. He is a troll masquerading as a Christian to get a rise out of skeptics who will not suffer fools.

It is a fool who carries a faith like his into a skeptic's forum. The Bible says not to. Jesus says "Do not cast your pearls before swine." He cares no more for what Jesus says than a nonChristian otherwise he'd be spending all this wasted time helping the sick, ministering to the poor, or spreading the Good News of Jesus. He does nothing of the kind -- he comes onto a skeptic's blog and threatens trhem with a Hell they don't believe in.

I believe he is a troll. He may be only a fool. But 1inChrist is certainly no Christian. He doesn't have a clue how to act like one.

[The GM]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
You are avoiding the question. :D

The answer is C.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Atlas
I believe he is a troll. He may be only a fool.

I think he is a trool. Or maybe a froll.

[Ed]

You would see a decidedly jewish looking guy (no nordic looks here) screaming his life out and then dieing. You would also see how the events were spun by those that hoped to accrete their own power and influence among his followers, if any. A shabby, sordid tale doubtless repeated many times over the years with the exception that this one had traction.

Gee, wonder if some followers of the Schneerson have seen him since he died? What about Koresh? Give both events a few hundred years and see.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by El Greco
I think he is a trool. Or maybe a froll. Ok... Maybe a tool. But he's not aloof. That much I'm sure of.

[Ladewig]

Yes. I would have a great interest and if he described himself in that way, I'd be very prepared to listen and would probably believe.

And now a question for you, 1in Christ

If we put you in a time machine and you went back to witness Bacchus granting King Midas's wish, and Promethius's liver growing back, and Charon ferrying dead souls across the river Styx, would you believe in the divinity of the Greek Pantheon?

[evildave]

Originally posted by Mr. Skinny
If I saw someone supposedly die, then come back to life several days later, I admit it would be baffling.

Don't know if I'd jump to the conclusion that that meant the person was "Mankind's Lord and Savior" though.

Not baffling at all. You don't seem to be familiar with the reason that funerary 'wake' was invented.

The function of a 'wake' was to be reasonably certain someone was dead before the burial took place.

You see, someone can appear to the world to be dead just by not apparently breathing, not apparently having a pulse, and being cool to the touch. Many people have been buried alive through history. The presumably 'dead body' awakens in a the casket and suffocates trying to claw their way out. They seemd to be dead, and stayed apparently dead through funeral preparations, contacting relatives, transport, rites, and burial. Some few 'lucked out' and stirred before burial. Others were exhumed for whatever reasons later (historically, churches had limited grave sites, and would exhume bones to make room for fresh meat, and even removed bodies when the families couldn't pay up) and found the tell tale marks of the victim trying to claw and kick their way out of their coffin.

Another type of 'death' is puffer fish poisoning. It's a potent paralyzing agent that can render you apparently 'dead' while being quite alive, even conscious. Fixed dialated pupils, low body temperature, undetectable pulse, no apparent breathing, everything you need to be declared 'dead' and sent to the morgue. In Japan, people who eat this delicacy are required to carry a card.

Drowning victims have been revived after many hours under cold water. This is a different category, because such drowning victims are very unlikely to self-revive without help, and after a certain time, the cold doesn't help the oxygen deprivation (or begins to freeze the body), and the damage would be done. But these perfectly viable people will be 'dead' according to most kinds of routine medical tests.

Even in modern times, there are plenty of people mistakenly declared 'dead' at the scene, who are bagged up,and who turn out to be breathing later on. With more prevalent autopsies and embalming, getting all the way to the grave site alive is a lot more rare.

Now as for a 'time machine', it seems to be a pretty desperate plea to science fiction. If we had a Millenium Falcon, I'm sure we could fly off and see that Luke Skywalker is real, too.

[apoger]

I'm not sure I can trust my own eyes.
Please check out... http://web.mit.edu/persci/people/adelson/checkershadow_illusion.html

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by apoger
I'm not sure I can trust my own eyes.
Please check out... http://web.mit.edu/persci/people/ad...w_illusion.html

That link gave me a 404 error.

[apoger]

Should be fixed ;)

[Lisa Simpson]

I don't know what it has to do with time machines, Jeebus and atheists, but it sure was cool!

[Seismosaurus]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

No.

Simple reason - so far as I know, nothing Jesus ever did or said proved - PROVED, mind you - that he was Mankind's Lord and Saviour.

Assume that he did indeed live and did indeed do these miracles ascribed to him. This could, maybe, prove that he had some remarkable supernatural powers. But that doesn't translate into his being god, being omnipotent, or being the saviour of mankind.

[apoger]

I don't know what it has to do with time machines, Jeebus and atheists, but it sure was cool!

It has to do with believing what we see "with our own eyes".
My point is that we should be skeptical of even things we experience ourselves, as we are easy to fool.

[Max560]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

... And in another thread, you posed the hypothetical situation of the stars spelling out a special message.

Rather than concocting these different scenarios, why don't you just ask the obvious questions?

1. What evidence would you accept as proof (or at least a strong indicator) that a supreme being exists?

2. What evidence would you accept as proof that the nature of said supreme being is just as I have been describing to you?

After getting some answers to these questions, see if you can arrange to have your god provide said evidence. Then, sit back, and watch all the conversions to the one true faith.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by apoger
It has to do with believing what we see "with our own eyes".
My point is that we should be skeptical of even things we experience ourselves, as we are easy to fool.

[the lightbulb goes on over Lisa's head] Aha! Very good.

Yes, if I had a time machine (and I'd want it to be cool, like a DeLorian) and Jesus' body was missing after three days, resurrection is not the only answer. Grave robbers is one option.

[Lord Emsworth]

As an aside ...

The famous time machine argument???

[c4ts]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

Yes I would.

But I haven't, and neither have you.

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth
As an aside ...

The famous time machine argument???



Yeah, I noticed that, too.

As for answers, I want to change mine to, "the likelihood that I would believe under those circumstances is bit higher than 1inChrist's likelihood of changing his beliefs if a time machine showed that it did not happen the way it said in the Gospels."

I do, however think it would be way cool to see the zombies.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

[shecky]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth
As an aside ...

The famous time machine argument???



HaHa... I couldn't recall any famous time machine arguement. Curious, I clicked the link to realize that this was a 1inC post... :rolleyes:

When you invent a time machine, I'll be willing to go back and see this schmuck for myself. Maybe I'll even get a sample of his blood and bring it back to find out what kind of DNA God has. Just think, soon enough, we could use it to clone Jesus!

[Operaider]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior? I definitely would not believe it.

I wouldn't be able to tell if some advanced form of trickery was being used. As you said, I went back in time. If I could go back in time, than surely people a thousand years from now could go back. Those people would clearly be technologically more advanced than I am. I would never know if one of them hadn't come into the past before I got there, and impregnated Mary with a genetically enhanced fetus. Perhaps they found a way to engrain memories into DNA, the kid could grow up with a full knowledge of advanced magic tricks and a mission to use them in order to convince people he is God. His body might also be programmed to go into a dormant state after the crucifixion. This would allow him to appear dead while still being alive and able to rise from the grave 3 days later. So there you have it.

A shorter way of writing this would be to say "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer"

[Atlas]

Originally posted by shecky
HaHa... I couldn't recall any famous time machine arguement. Curious, I clicked the link to realize that this was a 1inC post... :rolleyes:

When you invent a time machine, I'll be willing to go back and see this schmuck for myself. Maybe I'll even get a sample of his blood and bring it back to find out what kind of DNA God has. Just think, soon enough, we could use it to clone Jesus! Just make sure the woman who carries the clone to term is a virgin. Otherwise it wouldn't be kosher.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

I don't understand your desire to make us see the 'truth' in your belief system by proposing silly, implausible situations.

If you want to know what it would take for me to believe in your god, well that is easy, evidence. Verifiable evidence. Not, a book that was written based off of oral histories and epics of many cultures, not '20,000,000 christians can't be wrong' argument. Simple evidence.

Now, once that evidence is supplied, it is a questions of whether I will accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior. The answer to that is unequivicobly no. No, because if he has all this power and choses to use it to play games with human kind so that they can 'prove' their love of him, he is a silly and inane not to mention incredibly insecure and selfish creature. In fact, judging by how much horror happens in this world, if there were such a being who could easily erase the ills then he is naught more than a tyrant and you are not more than a Sally Stuthers wannabe who cries about helping the starving children rather than doing something viable to help.

So grow up and move on with your life. If you are happy in your god bothering then by all means continue on. You are welcome to toady up to any tyrant you see fit, real or imagined.

[c4ts]

Why make only one? Make a hundred Christs, just in case he doesn't turn out right on the first try.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Operaider
... I wouldn't be able to tell if some advanced form of trickery was being used. As you said, I went back in time. If I could go back in time, than surely people a thousand years from now could go back. Those people would clearly be technologically more advanced than I am. I would never know if one of them hadn't come into the past before I got there, and impregnated Mary with a genetically enhanced fetus. Perhaps they found a way to engrain memories into DNA, the kid could grow up with a full knowledge of advanced magic tricks and a mission to use them in order to convince people he is God. His body might also be programmed to go into a dormant state after the crucifixion. This would allow him to appear dead while still being alive and able to rise from the grave 3 days later. So there you have it. I nominate this for the famous time machine argument.

[Operaider]

We can do this easily with in vitro fertilization today. Imagine the techniques they'd have a thousand years from now. With a the ability to go back in time and advanced technology there is no limit to lies they could spread.

[H3LL]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

If I was convinced that this was the person that was to be turned into a destructive myth to cause so much misery, death and destruction....I'd kill him again.

[Temporal Renegade]

Did someone say, 'Time Machine'? :D

Well, a Time Machine is a vehicle created by science, is it not?
Didn't you have a tirade about how science was bad, not too long ago? Can something 'bad' be used to confirm something 'good'?
Besides the fact that you might not even end up in Jesus' neighborhood anyway; you'd need a machine that could move through space, as well as time. Otherwise, you'd have to compensate for spacial drift, since you'd be moving temporally, not by locale. Unless, of course, you started in the area He was supposedly living in, in the first place. And, even then....

Also, if you really did have one, and managed to arrive at the Crucifixion, what would you do? Stand there, while He was being tortured and killed, not doing anything to save Him, or try to rescue Him?

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by c4ts
Why make only one? Make a hundred Christs, just in case he doesn't turn out right on the first try.


I can just see it now:

SAVIOR WARS, EPISODE 33 A.D: ATTACK OF THE (Jesus) CLONES!:D



Man, never thought Calvary looked like THIS!

[c4ts]

Originally posted by H3LL
If I was convinced that this was the person that was to be turned into a destructive myth to cause so much misery, death and destruction....I'd kill him again.

You'd probably end up with some other cult doing the same things all over history.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
I can just see it now:

SAVIOR WARS, EPISODE 33 A.D: ATTACK OF THE (Jesus) CLONES!:D



Man, never thought Calvary looked like THIS!

"If you see only One way to get into heaven this summer, prepare to be confused!"

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
Did someone say, 'Time Machine'? :D

Well, a Time Machine is a vehicle created by science, is it not?
Didn't you have a tirade about how science was bad, not too long ago? Can something 'bad' be used to confirm something 'good'?
Besides the fact that you might not even end up in Jesus' neighborhood anyway; you'd need a machine that could move through space, as well as time. Otherwise, you'd have to compensate for spacial drift, since you'd be moving temporally, not by locale. Unless, of course, you started in the area He was supposedly living in, in the first place. And, even then....

Especially since everything is moving. This is something all "time travel" movies and books forget. The galaxy itself is rotating, and the Sun with it; if your machine didn't spacially compensate you will end up in open space half a galaxy away from the Earth.

1inC, forget the "biologists" and the medical doctors; I want to see your "Jesus" in the tomb with a stake through his heart, a clove of garlic in his mouth, and his neck severed. If he comes back after that, we'll talk. I still probably won't grovel, but I'll grant you've got something wierd going on.

[H3LL]

Originally posted by c4ts
You'd probably end up with some other cult doing the same things all over history.

Is there a typo in there somewhere ;)

[espritch]

What if you went back in a time machine and witnessed Jesus's reserection first hand? What the stars suddenly spelled out JESUS IS LORD? What if Jesus appeared to you as a 900 foot apparition and boomed "Believe, dammit!"

The real question, 1inC, is this: do you have any actual evidence that Jesus existed, that Jesus was who he claimed to be, that Jesus was resurected? What ifs can be great fun but they aren't evidence. So stop playing these silly games and present your evidence or just admit you have non.

[Ratman_tf]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

Wheel out the ole' time machine and we'll go take a look.

[Zep]

Hmmm... This looks like a good model TM^TM.

http://www.madmarty.net/doctor%20who%20pics/dw%20tardis%202.jpg

[monkboon]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
YES! THIS IS GLORIOUS NEWS I HAVE FINALLY FOUND SOMETHING THAT WOULD CONVINCE AN ATHEIST!

No, you haven't. Find your time machine first, then you can make this statement.

[Hazelip]

What if...what if...what if? :rolleyes:

What a stupid game to play, the never-ending, extremely maleable hypothetical that never ends. 1inC doesn't really bring anything new and interesting to these discussions, does he?

Stop feeding the troll, kids.

[monkboon]

Originally posted by apollo13
[I think there was a link put on the forum a few weeks ago to a verse-by-verse analysis of the inconsistencies in the gospels. can somebody remind me where it was? - can't seem to find it.]

Sorry, don't know which one you might be talking about, but I can recommend Don't Know Much About the Bible: Everything You Need to Know About the Good Book but Never Learned (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380728397/qid=1098586600/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4968743-9107919?v=glance&s=books). Maybe not as thorough as you were looking for, but it's a fairly easy read.

[Kitty Chan]

Instead of the time machine what about the "What If" machine.
(little reference there ;) )

Now we are in 2005 at Easter time, there is a popular man at a media event. What if this guy is killed by a lunatic, and the media is there and then they release the footage for all to see all over the world.

Then 3 days later he comes alive again and then they show him on the news to the whole world so everyone can see.

Would you believe what you see?

[monkboon]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

OK, now I've read the entire thread, I can answer the question: Ummm, no.

Obviously, since we've used a time machine to go back, it is conceivable that some zealot could also have gone back to the same points in history, using modern techniques (or more likely, confederates) to perform what would have appeared as miracles at the time, etc. For the coup de gras, he could come back first to 3 days after the crucifixion to show us he has risen, then second to be crucified. We obviously would witness these in a different order, but, no, wouldn't fool me.

Makes about as much sense as the original question.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
Instead of the time machine what about the "What If" machine.
(little reference there ;) )

Now we are in 2005 at Easter time, there is a popular man at a media event. What if this guy is killed by a lunatic, and the media is there and then they release the footage for all to see all over the world.

Then 3 days later he comes alive again and then they show him on the news to the whole world so everyone can see.

Would you believe what you see? Short answer: No. Two reasons: (1) media presentations don't make for reliable and unbiased presentations - the events since 9/11 show this in spades; (2) The "true story" is often not what everyone gets to see, so the "fairly story' gets touted as truth, and embellished in the retelling over time.

Sound familiar?

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Zep
Sound familiar?

Zep of course familiar ;)

But what would happen next? this guy would be on all the talk shows, news shows. Doctors would examine him. People would flock to see him, he would be bigger than the Beatles.

And then because he would be so wonderful people would start listening to him. Especially when he can talk of what it was like when he was dead and what he saw. And I bet he will come across with enlightenments from the other side and the actual truth. And secrets of the ages to share with everyone.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
Zep of course familiar ;)

But what would happen next? this guy would be on all the talk shows, news shows. Doctors would examine him. People would flock to see him, he would be bigger than the Beatles.

And then because he would be so wonderful people would start listening to him. Especially when he can talk of what it was like when he was dead and what he saw. And I bet he will come across with enlightenments from the other side and the actual truth. And secrets of the ages to share with everyone. Question: Would they be famous for what they SAY they saw, of because of what ACTUALLY happened?

Such celebrity people are a dime-a-dozen already anyway. Think Michael jackson - why IS he in the news so much?

And Shirley MacLean thinks she's been reincarnated a few times already, not just once, but she's only "famous" nowadays because she's patently lost the plot and talks to her cats or something.

Are you sure you aren't confusing celebrity and fame with importance? Just because it's on TV doesn't make it "good" or "true"...

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
In repsonse to your question, no. Satan could easily be playing a trick on me.

Funny you should mention that. If I went back and saw Jesus die and be re-born, I wouldn't believe it since Satan could easily be tricking me into thinking the saviour had been born and sacrificed, instead of yet-to-be-born (as per the Jewish religion), or born-sooner-than-scheduled (as per the Muslim religion).

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

Sigh, another day, another thread...

If you went back in time and witnessed my birth, life, teachings, [and went into the future and witnessed my] death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that I am Mankind's Lord and Savior?

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Zep
Question: Would they be famous for what they SAY they saw, of because of what ACTUALLY happened?

Such celebrity people are a dime-a-dozen already anyway. Think Michael jackson - why IS he in the news so much?

And Shirley MacLean thinks she's been reincarnated a few times already, not just once, but she's only "famous" nowadays because she's patently lost the plot and talks to her cats or something.

Are you sure you aren't confusing celebrity and fame with importance? Just because it's on TV doesn't make it "good" or "true"...

Your question is excellent but would it be heard in the climate of the media :(

Well the people would have seen him die and now hes alive. And knows the secrets that alot of people want to know.

Celebrity people are still believed and trusted no matter what evidence there is against them. I agree WHY are they in the news so much, I think it reflects a particular mindset of the times.

Celebrity is important, why do we care what any actor or singer thinks. Talk shows on TV interview these guys and ask their opions, parparatzi? follow them continuiously and there is a steady feed to the public which drinks it up.

Although I believe hes sincere (and I luv em) Bono has the ear of the world leaders and has set a interesting precedent.

So would be the case of this guy coming back from the dead to the state of a mega star. He will have the answers that everyone will want. Think of the mob (public) what can it be counted on to do regarding this guy?


dont forget I said its familiar ;) and Shirley is out on a broken limb. . .

[espritch]

So would be the case of this guy coming back from the dead to the state of a mega star. He will have the answers that everyone will want.

But how do you know he has the aswers? He may not remember anything that occured after his "death". He might just be lying (like John Edwards) and telling people what they want to hear.

[kuroyume0161]

Originally posted by Zep
Hmmm... This looks like a good model TM^TM.

http://www.madmarty.net/doctor%20who%20pics/dw%20tardis%202.jpg

Oooooh, infinitely spacious accomodations!!

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by espritch
But how do you know he has the aswers? He may not remember anything that occured after his "death". He might just be lying (like John Edwards) and telling people what they want to hear.

Dont forget its the "What If" machine I borrowed from Prof Farnsworth ;)

I agree with what your saying, but hes probably lying although how could it be proven? And how many people out there want to know for sure and he being in this time and place would be able to tell them. And bandwagons would roll.

[Quinn]

This makes me wonder how many more ridiculous "what if" scenarios 1inC is going to go through before he gets the point that they're worthless. Here's another to help expedite the process:

If you were about to have drunken sex with a prostitute in the cockpit of an airplane parked on the tarmac, and in the process you set the plane moving and crashed it into something, and in the crash a metal rod penetrated your rectum and came out your scrotum, and in the instant just after the rod had impaled you through your nut sack, time came to a standstill, and while everything else was frozen, Jesus appeared to you and told you it was time to get your life together, and then he returned you to real time to deal with your wrecked plane and injured prostitute and newly perforated genitalia... THEN would you believe and follow him?

(Scenario taken from the hilarious and deliciously blasphemous novel Island of the Sequined Love Nun (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060735449/qid=1098601916/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-6043179-9077457).)

Any others? Should we start a contest?

[Operaider]

Originally posted by Quinn
This makes me wonder how many more ridiculous "what if" scenarios 1inC is going to go through before he gets the point that they're worthless. Here's another to help expedite the process:

If you were about to have drunken sex with a prostitute in the cockpit of an airplane parked on the tarmac, and in the process you set the plane moving and crashed it into something, and in the crash a metal rod penetrated your rectum and came out your scrotum, and in the instant just after the rod had impaled you through your nut sack, time came to a standstill, and while everything else was frozen, Jesus appeared to you and told you it was time to get your life together, and then he returned you to real time to deal with your wrecked plane and injured prostitute and newly perforated genitalia... THEN would you believe and follow him?

(Scenario taken from the hilarious and deliciously blasphemous novel Island of the Sequined Love Nun (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060735449/qid=1098601916/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-6043179-9077457).)
I think I'd be too concerned about my recently pierced nut sack to even contemplate following him

[Kitty Chan]

Quinn just to let you know Im serious, just trying to take this into a scenario that is in our time and place. To if there was a event such as described can you say given the news lately that people wouldnt act somewhat as Ive pointed out?

Also, its been stated that a time machine could be misused and there has been enough sci fi shows explaining the dangers. Bill and Ted worked out not too bad but it had potential for problems ;)

[Zep]

Originally posted by Operaider
I think I'd be too concerned about my recently pierced nut sack to even contemplate following him I believe I would be more interested in the bleeding, screaming and fainting to worry about any random messiahs appearing and asking inane questions. And if they did, it would be a far more realistic option to put it down to the heavy dose of pain-killers in the ambulance - Ockham and all that.

[Operaider]

Originally posted by Zep
I believe I would be more interested in the bleeding, screaming and fainting to worry about any random messiahs appearing and asking inane questions. And if they did, it would be a far more realistic option to put it down to the heavy dose of pain-killers in the ambulance - Ockham and all that.
Good point, I'd have to chalk it up to a psychological defense mechanism. Because if my brain was going to defend me from trauma, It couldn't pick a better time than when I'm suffering from a punctured scrot.

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
In repsonse to your question, no. Satan could easily be playing a trick on me.

Well, by that logic, why should I be convinced that Jesus really is the saviour? After all, maybe the jews have got it right, and Satan was playing a trick on me.

(Or perhaps it was Loke posing as Satan posing as Jesus - or maybe Old Man Coyote posing as Loke posing as Satan posing as ... well, you know.)

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Leif Roar
Well, by that logic, why should I be convinced that Jesus really is the saviour? After all, maybe the jews have got it right, and Satan was playing a trick on me.

(Or perhaps it was Loke posing as Satan posing as Jesus - or maybe Old Man Coyote posing as Loke posing as Satan posing as ... well, you know.)

Wish I said that. :rolleyes:

[Jellby]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth
As an aside ...

The famous time machine argument???



Does that mean that I have already won this debate (argument by time-machine)?

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by alfaniner
Sigh, another day, another thread...

If you went back in time and witnessed my birth, life, teachings, [and went into the future and witnessed my] death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that I am Mankind's Lord and Savior?


Why, yes...Yes, I would!

One look at your icon, and that's proof enough for me!:D

[H'ethetheth]

Originally posted by Atlas
I nominate this for the famous time machine argument.

I second this nomination.

[Temporal Renegade]

Well, which Time Machine would be used?
The George Pal one, the one that Guy Pierce used in the later movie version of the book, or the TARDIS? It could make a difference, ya know!

(My vote's on the TARDIS!!):D

[TruthSeeker]

1inC,

If it were possible to travel back in time and if Jesus really existed and you had the chance to talk with him, I think you'd find a few shocking things:

1) he'd be astonished and perhaps angry that you think he is divine. He would try to explain to you that he did not mean he was "god" in any way that is/was unique to him

2) he'd laugh and then possibly cry when you told him about all the astonishing things he did in his life. He'd ask the obvious questions like "If I raised people from the dead, wouldn't everyone know about it and historians have written about it?" He'd try to explain to you that he is a teacher and maybe provides some natural healing but nothing extraordinary.

3) he'd be deeply grieved to hear about the suffering and death which have arisen because of his "followers". He would wonder how to prevent that. He might immediately end his ministry.

So, in summary, I think if you went back and met Jesus, you'd end up believing in the existence of an ordinary man and you'd stop being a Christian.

[c4ts]

Maybe 1inC will build a time machine without the use of logic, reason, or science. If he does I'm not going near that thing.

[wollery]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior? No, I wouldn't believe it because it could be a trick by the evil anti-atheist to try to make me believe in the god that doesn't exist!




p.s. I predict that 1inChpianist won't get this post. Or the name alteration.

[Lord Emsworth]

Maybe it would already be a strong argument pro 1inChrist's beliefs if he could get Jesus to reveal to him how to build a time machine ...

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
Well, which Time Machine would be used?
The George Pal one, the one that Guy Pierce used in the later movie version of the book, or the TARDIS? It could make a difference, ya know!

(My vote's on the TARDIS!!):D I liked Rod Steiger's in (H.G Wells) The Time Machine (1960)...

But when I went to find a color image of it I ran across this webpage. (http://www.biblehelp.org/fore.htm) I wouldn't have thought the Bible thumpers would have used a piece of fiction for a webpage emblem.

(PS. The time machine is similar to Steiger's but not the same. Here's a Black & White of the machine...
http://www.colemanzone.com/images/MOVIE.JPG

[Paul]

Originally posted by Atlas
But when I went to find a color image of it I ran across this webpage. (http://www.biblehelp.org/fore.htm) I wouldn't have thought the Bible thumpers would have used a piece of fiction for a webpage emblem.
OT - On the homepage is a perfect example of stupid questionless acceptance:

Today (8/21/03) my mother-in-law was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. Although no one likes to hear this type of bad news, an uncertain future does not need to be feared.

Joyce had demonstrated this powerful truth 14 years ago when she had breast cancer. Her faithful walk with the Lord (both past and present) has been a tremendous example of the victorious Christian life. She lives the life that so many Christians only read about.

Please pray that God will support Joyce and her family as they deal with the next few months.Isn't it nice to know that if you are a tremendous example of the victorious Christian life god will reward you with cancer, twice in 14 years, and your family will think that's fine.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
Well, which Time Machine would be used?
The George Pal one...Originally posted by Atlas
I liked Rod Steiger's in (H.G Wells) The Time Machine (1960)...
I just realized that the Rod Steiger's and George Pal's are one and the same.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Atlas
I just realized that the Rod Steiger's and George Pal's are one and the same.

WHAT THE F*** IS WRONG WITH ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO KEEP THINKING ROD STEIGER IS IN 'THE TIME MACHINE'? IT'S ROD TAYLOR YOU MORONS!!!

My girlfriend keeps making the same mistake.

[Kitty Chan]

Originally posted by Paul
OT - On the homepage is a perfect example of stupid questionless acceptance:

Isn't it nice to know that if you are a tremendous example of the victorious Christian life god will reward you with cancer, twice in 14 years, and your family will think that's fine.

Being a christian is not a good luck charm, a special spell that stops anything from happening to you. They are referring to the fact they feel comfort from God in good times and bad.

An example would be why do you think in marriage vows the couple with say in good times and bad, sickness and health, rich and poor. Life is ups and downs. :) :(

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Paul
OT - On the homepage is a perfect example of stupid questionless acceptance:

Isn't it nice to know that if you are a tremendous example of the victorious Christian life god will reward you with cancer, twice in 14 years, and your family will think that's fine. My sister had cancer last year and she is an evangelical Christian. Your words hit me funny because while it's true that she acted out the victorious Christian life... It was a front or perhaps better described as a safety net. Her emotions were all over the map.

When we talked about her life she was a basket case, husband, kids, job, her hair... her world was collapsing.

When we talked about God she was immediately on firmer ground. So that's what we talked about. It's a little tricky for me, I share your disdain, Paul, of questionless acceptance exhibited by othewise normal adults. But I also believe that if the skeptic's way frightens one in inquirys of their own mortality, questionless acceptance seems like a useful alternative.

What I've always rebelled about was the structure of dogma on which a questionless acceptance must hang. One must train oneself to accept absurd notions about religion and God without question when one is still strong in order to take comfort there when one is weak.

I find it difficult to accept the absurd notions I did when I was younger. But I don't know how it will affect me or help me in my own weakest moments. What will I be saying over and over in my head at those times when others are surely praying?

Anyway, my sister is a bright emotional bubble and skepticism is not her way. I was glad that her Christianity offered her a floor to support her against a complete emotional breakdown. She has been cancer free for almost a year now. And it was a "miracle" that saved her. Getting cancer was like a big puzzle... Why did the Lord visit this on me? Am I supposed to learn a lesson? Am I supposed to serve as an example to others? In other words, How is this Good?

Anyway, I thought it was a positive way to think about some pretty dark realities. I hope I find some positive mental approaches when life presents similar dark times to me. She had a lot of support in her church too. Right now I don't hang around skeptics. Most of my family and aquaintances are religionists or new agey wooists. Thats really gonna suck for me if they are the only ones who visit and I still carry this disdain.

Oh well, so death sucks - what else is new.

(edit: I fully expect to approach it all with a positive attitude. If things work out I'll be reconciled and ready and I won't linger long after that.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
WHAT THE F*** IS WRONG WITH ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO KEEP THINKING ROD STEIGER IS IN 'THE TIME MACHINE'? IT'S ROD TAYLOR YOU MORONS!!!

My girlfriend keeps making the same mistake. Ouch!

Um... I know it's Rod Taylor... I simply misspelled his last name :p

Darn it!

Thanks for pointing it out to me so subtlely.

[epepke]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

This is unusual. It's actually interesting.

My answer: presuming those events were substantially as reported and interpreted now, then yes, I probably would.

The "probably" would, in that case, only be because I would also have to weigh the Gnostic interpretation as well.

[Kitty Chan]

Atlas your sister sounds like my sister in law, her business just went south and now the brother in law may have cancer. But her attitude is like your sisters. Thats why I said the christian life isnt a good luck charm its knowing your not alone.

Your sister would be a example of finding out personally what is the appeal or "the real thing" buried under all superficial junk out there. Thats what really counts. If I asked you to tell her, her story encouraged me it would bless her.

They were talking about the faith of a mustard seed on the other thread. That one could move a tree.

This is better example of that faith its much more important than relocating a tree.

:) thanks

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
... If I asked you to tell her, her story encouraged me it would bless her.
...
This is better example of that faith its much more important than relocating a tree. You know Kitty, I think she would take it as a blessing to hear her story was encouraging to you so I will tell her. Sadly, she has had opportunities already to help others going through similar ordeals. So she'll know it's true.

I wonder on these human transactions more than she does. She'll say, "I leaned on the Lord and He gave me strength." I think what the listener hears is more like, "Even though you fear this is the end it's probably not and here is a tool I used to beat the fear." But even more than that, her smile, touch, and warm nature conveys the calm of experience and that the world cares what is happening to those who feel so terribly isolated and alone.

My ex too had cancer and has been cancer free for about 4 years now. Their journeys were so different. My ex is not a religionist, but she's the only one in her family that is not. She did not want them around because of the negative feelings that arose in her when her siblings (all older) wanted to tell her how wonderful God is.

She went for information. She wanted to know everything the doctor was thinking, how to live well and eat nutritionally to manage her own life for the long term. Conversely, my sister gave it all to God -- "Whatever happens, happens." My ex was determined to fight to live and my sister was preparing fall into the arms of the Lord, "Thy will be done."

The only thing they agreed on was not listening to their Doctor. My ex did not want the Chemo pill and she fought with the doctor saying. "How do you know if it's working?" The doctor answered, "We'll schedue blood tests." My ex said, "Give me the blood targets and a nutritional plan - I can do this, I'll prove it to you... If I'm wrong then I'll take the pill." The doc reluctantly agreed. (My ex won and has never taken the Tamoxifen the doc wanted her to take. Her blood tests are always right where they should be.)

My sister on the other hand looked at the doctor as almost inconsequential. This was between her and the Lord. Very few questions for the doctor but no ill will either. She showed up and did what she was told. Amazing to me were their different attitudes.

My sister had her family and her church around her. My ex makes friends easily but her circle shrunk down to essential people. She became very businesslike cutting out time wasting relationships to focus on the real productive life affirming relationships that she knew could only help her.

My ex and I split 8 years ago and now have a thousand miles between us as well. I sure was glad there was email that we could share everyday. She's probably a lot stronger than I am in a lot of ways but there were so many days that she was afraid and shattered and there was no one to hold her. Certainly not God. Not for her.

In my emails I'd describe things to her... smells and sunshine, the trill of the birdsong and what it made me think of. I'd talk philosophically about life and love and us and our journey together and apart. From 20 years of marriage I guess I fell into something good for her without knowing why. Afterward I realized, that she was so in love with life she couldn't get enough of the beauty and the emotion of it. It was a lot of work sometimes crafting a heartfelt or funny message that would be emotionally bright and life affirming in her darkest moments. Anyway, I got better at it as time went on and she would print the best ones and post them around her desk so that she could read them everyday.

When she told me that I felt like I was doing good in the world. Though she and I would not use the term "blessing" between us I would describe the emotional uplift I was getting by giving as "blessing" when I'd talk to the religionists in my family. Likewise, the emotional brightening my words supplied in her dark times I also considered a "blessing". Nothing supernatural, but you know a blessing when one is visited on you.

I still use words like faith and blessing and God and sin when I am with others for whom those words are the background of existence. For me they are more emotional experiences and feelings. Their reality is something I have known in my own life. I now however, doubt the external reality I imagined accompanied these experiences. I cherish all the lofty, peaceful, and fulfilling feelings even without the heaven and hell others always told me they point to.

As usual I'm going long. I appreciated your response and will pass along your good thoughts to my sister. I also enjoy your posts and Mlynn's too as what I guess I expect of Christians. I'm glad you're around - I don't know exactly why you want to play in this sandbox but I hope you will always feel welcome. Furthermore, I hope that the light that is shined on religion in these threads illuminates for you the underlying truth of your own faith. (Wherever that leads.)

[Paul]

Atlas & Kitty,

Thanks for your replies, I think in my non-belief and time spent on these forums I forget the comfort brought to ordinary people by their beliefs. Of course personal faith is just that, personal, and if a set of beliefs of any kind can help then that is a good thing, a positive attitiude can be very important.

I guess what I mean is that I cannot understand why a person, running a christian website, would hold their mother-in-law up as an example of living a wonderful, faithful, enviable christian life by telling the world that she has had two different cancers in the last 14 years.

My grandmother has also had problems with cancer in her jaw recently and I have put my faith in her strength and in modern medicine. Although I have seen her go from a vital and vigorous woman of 94 years to an unsteady old lady in a few months, she is mostly over the surgery now with only the problems of no teeth and almost constant nerve pain holding her back. What helped me was that although my father (her son) and mother expected the worst, I had seen a lot of medical TV and so knew what to expect to a degree. I was not as surprised therefore when gran was up and about and asserting herself in a few weeks.

My sincerest best wishes to everyone mentioned here, and it seems that we are all very lucky with the current outcomes.

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
Well, which Time Machine would be used?
The George Pal one, the one that Guy Pierce used in the later movie version of the book, or the TARDIS? It could make a difference, ya know!

(My vote's on the TARDIS!!):D

Or how about Bill & Ted's phone booth? Or TimeRider's motorcycle? Or Doc Brown's DeLorean? Or Kirk's Enterprise (or even the Klingon Bird of Prey)? Or... you get the idea...

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
What if you have 5 different biologists there to independently confirm He was dead? What if you sat by His independently verfied dead body for the whole three days and you saw His resurrection happen up close in personal?

Remember in my above scenario I said you witnessed His life too so that means you witnessed His miracles first hand. If you saw all this would you then believe? What if. What if.

It is all very easy: If I am shown proof of God, I'll believe. You don't need a time machine for that. He can do that in in the present if He so whishes.

Edited to add: Oh, I see 1inchChrist bailed out of this thread two pages ago. What a jerk :nope:.

Hans

[c4ts]

Originally posted by alfaniner
Or how about Bill & Ted's phone booth? Or TimeRider's motorcycle? Or Doc Brown's DeLorean? Or Kirk's Enterprise (or even the Klingon Bird of Prey)? Or... you get the idea...

Then there's the time machine from Napoleon Dynamite...

[AWPrime]

I rather have the time machine of Doctor Evil.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?
No, because if all that stuff happened, it would be logical for me to consider the ramifications, but you've taught me well to abjure logic and reason, so I'd be safe from falling for that mean old Mephisto trick.

Edit: After a bit of browsing over in the Community forum, I'd like to change my answer to "No." Thank you.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
YES! THIS IS GLORIOUS NEWS I HAVE FINALLY FOUND SOMETHING THAT WOULD CONVINCE AN ATHEIST! I feel great now.

In repsonse to your question, no. Satan could easily be playing a trick on me.

Odd however that you cannot conceive any way that you could be wrong. Is not conceipt a sin?

[Stitch]

Originally posted by H3LL
If I was convinced that this was the person that was to be turned into a destructive myth to cause so much misery, death and destruction....I'd kill him again.

I trust you would do it earlier on in his life this time, mind you it would seem that his myth is the combination of at least 3 people spread over a century or so, so maybe you'd have to kill all of them?

[Flaherty]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

Yes.

Question: If you could go back in time and witness Jesus' teachings, his death, and monitor his grave closely for a month to confirm that his body never re-animated, would you abandon Christianity?

[MRC_Hans]

He already answered that. No, he would assume the Devil tricked him. You see anything that fits 1inchChrist's beliefs is the work of God, all else is the work of Satan. Pretty simple, if you think of it.

Hans

[Yaotl]

I think his plan is to get one person to say something that could be construed as acceptance of JC and 1inC leaves the thread alone. He hasn't posted since page 1. I think he's scared to answer the question of why it would be Satan for him if JC didn't show and it would be proof to us if he did.

[AWPrime]

Originally posted by Stitch
I trust you would do it earlier on in his life this time, mind you it would seem that his myth is the combination of at least 3 people spread over a century or so, so maybe you'd have to kill all of them?

We could use H-bombs for that.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by AWPrime
We could use H-bombs for that.

Why not - god killed almost everybody in the great flood, so all we need to do is set off a couple of h-bombs, invoking his name as we do so and it'll all be alright as long as we say sorry afterwards - cool :rolleyes:

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Yaotl
I think his plan is to get one person to say something that could be construed as acceptance of JC and 1inC leaves the thread alone. He hasn't posted since page 1. I think he's scared to answer the question of why it would be Satan for him if JC didn't show and it would be proof to us if he did.

Actually, he's scared to respond to anyone who posts as though they might actually be a Christian, or at least have a firm grasp of Christian tenets...he can only operate under the assumption that everyone else is an atheist.

Just another keyboard commando, who thinks he has actually come up with a new game.

[Beerina]

Originally posted by Mojo
It doesn't sound very practical though. For a start, you don't have a time machine.

Even if you did, you'd be in trouble if the gospels turned out not to be strictly accurate and J. C. didn't show on time.


No, he's already covered that. If JC just turned out to be one of dozens of preachers, a little more radical than most, "oh, thanks for the donation, you are saved", then it's clearly a Devil-created event, not the real thing. Weren't you paying attention?

[Beerina]

Originally posted by shecky
HaHa... I couldn't recall any famous time machine arguement. Curious, I clicked the link to realize that this was a 1inC post... :rolleyes:

When you invent a time machine, I'll be willing to go back and see this schmuck for myself. Maybe I'll even get a sample of his blood and bring it back to find out what kind of DNA God has. Just think, soon enough, we could use it to clone Jesus!

Actually, with the crappy forensic detective work, it should be trivial to go back, open the Delorean door, shoot his posse, kidnap him, and then take him somewhere and kill him. Wait 3 days. 5 actually, just to be on the safe side.

Strike that. Better yet, go back in time and start popping off every religious and political troublemaker who restricts freedom. Find a few popular ones who fence sat on freedom-ish attitudes, and help them survive. Make sure the Greeks get over the hump into practical steam engine usage, etc.

Alternatively, go back in time to an area where the ethnic women are pleasing to you, set up shop with your advanced tech as a god, and create your own massive harem.

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Beerina
Make sure the Greeks get over the hump into practical steam engine usage, etc.

Do you really think it would be a good idea to give advance tech to a society of nationalistic pederastes whose economy is based on slavery and piracy?

[c4ts]

Of course! That's how America was born.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Beerina
No, he's already covered that. If JC just turned out to be one of dozens of preachers, a little more radical than most, "oh, thanks for the donation, you are saved", then it's clearly a Devil-created event, not the real thing. Weren't you paying attention?
Well, 1inC may be able to kid himself it's a trick of the Devil, but he's going to have trouble convincing any skeptics he's taken along...

[Robin]

From 1inChrist
YES! THIS IS GLORIOUS NEWS I HAVE FINALLY FOUND SOMETHING THAT WOULD CONVINCE AN ATHEIST! I feel great now.

What are you talking about? Any good evidence would convince most atheists. You don't need a time machine or letters in the sky or any of that nonsense.

I have outlined in other posts a range of evidence that can easily be produced without the need of such gimmicks.

The point is that there there is no evidence whatsovever.

[neutrino_cannon]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
If we went back in time and witnessed Jesus's birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection first hand and you saw it with your own eyes, would you then believe that Jesus Christ is Mankind's Lord and Savior?

I would be greatly convinced, yes. There would still be other possibilities needing exploration, but it would be a heck of a performance.

Now, where exactly is this time machine of yours?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by neutrino_cannon
I would be greatly convinced, yes. There would still be other possibilities needing exploration, but it would be a heck of a performance.

Now, where exactly is this time machine of yours?
My guess is bin Laden stole the plans, and keeps them rolled up, tightly secured in his, erm, well, you know. Anyway, after his capture on the 29th, Bush will see the plans are returned to 1inC so he can take us on his magic carpet ride.

[The Mighty Thor]

There is a sci-fi novel I read where someone travelled back to the time and place of Jesus' birth. He went to see the baby and it was mentally retarded.

It may have been by Michael Moorcock??

Anyone remember this one, and what happened next?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Did you just say that Michael Moorcock was a retarded baby in Jesus' time? :p

And, no, sorry, can't help with the story, but I'd read it if we found out what it was.

[MalvernHills]

"Behold the Man" was the book... still available through Amazon I think.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Did you just say that Michael Moorcock was a retarded baby in Jesus' time? :p

And, no, sorry, can't help with the story, but I'd read it if we found out what it was.

Nice one -- I did say that, didn't I.:D

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by MalvernHills
"Behold the Man" was the book... still available through Amazon I think.

That's the one. Strange that I can't remember how it panned out. I must buy it and read it again. It was a very clever scenario.

[lylfyl]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor
[B]. . . He went to see the baby and it was mentally retarded.

It may have been by Michael Moorcock?? . . .



I read it as Michael Moorcock was the father of the retarded baby Jesus. Oh well, since I'm going to Hell anyway, I might as well get a good seat. . .


I'll have to look up the book. Hope you didn't ruin the ending.

[Marquis de Carabas]

In my just-woken-up state when I read it this morning, I missed the "by" in that sentence. Noting it now, it does seem more like lylfyl's reading. Oh, well, thanks for the name of the book, Malvern. I'll be needing some readin material soon.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Atlas
I believe he is a troll. He may be only a fool. But 1inChrist is certainly no Christian. He doesn't have a clue how to act like one.
This is a "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. 1inC regards himself to be a Xpian, and that is enough. Who says that he has to act like your definition of a Xpian? As far as he's concerned, HE'S the real McCoy, and you're a wimp for not proclaiming the Gospels in a loud, hectoring voice.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
Well, it would be the first real first-hand report of the event.

Did you know that there are no verifible sources that confirm the supposed life of Jesus Christ?
FYI, the story of a man who wanders around the Middle East performing miracles such as raising the dead and healing the sick, who is then betrayed and murdered, but who rises again on the third day, is the Egyptian legend of the god Osiris. The Jews evidently picked it up during their captivity and incorporated it into their own creation myths.

[neutrino_cannon]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
FYI, the story of a man who wanders around the Middle East performing miracles such as raising the dead and healing the sick, who is then betrayed and murdered, but who rises again on the third day, is the Egyptian legend of the god Osiris. The Jews evidently picked it up during their captivity and incorporated it into their own creation myths.

As anyone who has seen Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade knows, there is no "j" in the latin alphabet, the "j" is a later invention, probably by monks, to differentiate between two uses of the letter "i" in latin.

Furthermore, the letter "v" was at the time pronounced like a "w" is today, so the Roman deity we anglicize as Jove would have been Iove, pronounced "Iowe" at the time.

I'm just as against bad etymology as the next man, but am I totally off base in thinking that this is obviously the root of the word "Yahweh"?

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
This is a "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. 1inC regards himself to be a Xpian, and that is enough. Who says that he has to act like your definition of a Xpian? As far as he's concerned, HE'S the real McCoy, and you're a wimp for not proclaiming the Gospels in a loud, hectoring voice. Kimpatsu, I'll agree that that my post represents a logical falacy in this case.

But perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post. I'm not saying that a Christian cannot say things like 1inC, in fact, I'm saying that 1inC is pretending - he's masquerading as a Christian merely to get a rise out of the agnostic/atheist crowd on these boards. He's a troll stirring the pot. The "beliefs" he brings forward he has seen elsewhere and I believe he knows they are absurd but he also knows that it's fun to torque us up.

Ok, that all my opinion. my definition of a Christian is not important as you say. I didn't exactly say things the way I wanted there. I'm not down on true believers whatevers their stripe. Charades and charlatans make me upset and that's how I perceive 1inC.

I don't know how many of his threads you've inspected - take a peek at a few if you haven't. He's not interested in them himself. He posts a few times and disappears and he starts a new thread with a new statement or question designed to raise hackles but never to inquire into the subject.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe he's got ADD or something. But he's seems to treat this forum as his own wind-up toy and his posts are designed to look as if he's a fundy just to laugh at how we spin.

If I'm wrong I owe him an apology. I don't think I'm wrong.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Atlas
Kimpatsu, I'll agree that that my post represents a logical falacy in this case.

But perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post. I'm not saying that a Christian cannot say things like 1inC, in fact, I'm saying that 1inC is pretending - he's masquerading as a Christian merely to get a rise out of the agnostic/atheist crowd on these boards. He's a troll stirring the pot. The "beliefs" he brings forward he has seen elsewhere and I believe he knows they are absurd but he also knows that it's fun to torque us up.

Ok, that all my opinion. my definition of a Christian is not important as you say. I didn't exactly say things the way I wanted there. I'm not down on true believers whatevers their stripe. Charades and charlatans make me upset and that's how I perceive 1inC.

I don't know how many of his threads you've inspected - take a peek at a few if you haven't. He's not interested in them himself. He posts a few times and disappears and he starts a new thread with a new statement or question designed to raise hackles but never to inquire into the subject.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe he's got ADD or something. But he's seems to treat this forum as his own wind-up toy and his posts are designed to look as if he's a fundy just to laugh at how we spin.

If I'm wrong I owe him an apology. I don't think I'm wrong.
Hi, Atlas. I have your book. ;)
I disagree; having read 1inC's posts on this forum, including this ludicrous time machine thread, I think he's utterly serious in his fundie Xpianity and believes everything he writes. His thinking is clearly muddled, but that holds true for all fundies, who do not grasp the basic tenets of logic or science. For example, 1inC fails to understand that logic is a tool; he sees it as an infallible truth, then when he finds a flaw that implies fallibility, draws the conclusion that all logic is utterly worthless. He throws out the baby with the bathwater. (This is common with fundies, who crave absolute certainty, when you and I know there is no such thing in the positive sense. I.e., whereas something can be certainly wrong, nothing can ever claimed to be definitively right; any theory is, at best, an approximation that is open to potential falsification, even though such theories as heliocentricity and evolution will never be falsified.) Consequently, 1inC feels irritated and frustrated at his inability to pursuade us of what he holds to be self-evident: that the Xpian god exists, and the Bible is His written word. The results of his frustration manifest as what appears to be trolling, but I don't think he does it to get a rise out of us; he does it out of a sincere, and totally misguided, belief that he is doing the Lord's work.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I disagree.... The results of his frustration manifest as what appears to be trolling, but I don't think he does it to get a rise out of us; he does it out of a sincere, and totally misguided, belief that he is doing the Lord's work. You know, I hope you are right. I am really down on the guy because of my perception of him. The first thread I read by him, I must admit I felt the same way you speak of him. In that one he said that he would answer all questions but he needed a break. That might have been his last post in that thread. Anyway, he never even tried.

Still he may have felt set upon and thought of a new idea that we couldn't possibly argue like the recordings of tormented screams from hell taken at deep drilling sites. So he started that one. He didn't hang around for the debunking.

And now this one. Crazy imaginary time machine idea - again he exits early with no word why.

We'll see on the 30th I guess. He has predicted that Osama Bin Laden will be captured on the 29th. Perhaps I'll change my opinion of him when he addresses why and how his God given prophecy turned out wrong.

I don't like feeling like I'm being played. And he, more than any other awakens that feeling. I've tried to ask questions to guage him but he leaves so early I've never gotten a response. Well, 1 response because I PM'd him requesting one - but not in the normal give and take of thread postings.

I'll reevaluate my perception of him. The 30th is only a few days away. I hope he handles it gracefully.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Atlas
You know, I hope you are right. I am really down on the guy because of my perception of him. The first thread I read by him, I must admit I felt the same way you speak of him. In that one he said that he would answer all questions but he needed a break. That might have been his last post in that thread. Anyway, he never even tried.

Still he may have felt set upon and thought of a new idea that we couldn't possibly argue like the recordings of tormented screams from hell taken at deep drilling sites. So he started that one. He didn't hang around for the debunking.

And now this one. Crazy imaginary time machine idea - again he exits early with no word why.

We'll see on the 30th I guess. He has predicted that Osama Bin Laden will be captured on the 29th. Perhaps I'll change my opinion of him when he addresses why and how his God given prophecy turned out wrong.

I don't like feeling like I'm being played. And he, more than any other awakens that feeling. I've tried to ask questions to guage him but he leaves so early I've never gotten a response. Well, 1 response because I PM'd him requesting one - but not in the normal give and take of thread postings.

I'll reevaluate my perception of him. The 30th is only a few days away. I hope he handles it gracefully.
Hi, Atlas.
I think 1inC buggers off out of it when we start debunking his lunacy because he feels so screaming bloody angry with us infidels, who do not have the good grace to accept his divinely-inspired rants (sorry, teachings!), at face value. As I said, such actions are consistent with frustration at being unable to win us over to his sincerely-held POV, rather than a deliberate attempt at trolling, which act is done to annoy. Still, this is only my own assessment of the loon, which may change in time. Right now, I perceive him as a genuinely unbalanced, completely sincere fundie nutcase.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
... Right now, I perceive him as a genuinely unbalanced, completely sincere fundie nutcase. This has been a good exchange. You have challenged me to elevate my perception. :D And you articulate an acceptable description. I will join you there for now. And I honestly hope your impression is truer than mine has been.

Good talking to ya.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Atlas
This has been a good exchange. You have challenged me to elevate my perception. :D And you articulate an acceptable description. I will join you there for now. And I honestly hope your impression is truer than mine has been.

Good talking to ya.
Always pleased to be of service. :w2:

[daenku32]

What if after Jesus died I would chop him up into little tiny pieces and serve him with some red wine.

Would 'body of christ' still resurrect himself? How would all the pieces come back together?

[Atlas]

Originally posted by daenku32
What if after Jesus died I would chop him up into little tiny pieces and serve him with some red wine.

Would 'body of christ' still resurrect himself? How would all the pieces come back together? I think you're just confused by the science behind normal ectoplasm which generally floats away from diced flesh.

But that's not how ectoplasm worked in the past - it was alot more sticky - still it wouldn't have been sticky enough to pull all the diced bits together - I think even Christians believe that.

What makes this situation different is that we're not talking normal ectoplasmic enegy here... we're talking Sonogod^TM ectoplasm energy which is to diced body parts what gravity is to buttered toast... an irresistible force to fall in.

Don't even try using the overworn "Evidence?" comeback. It's everywhere. I think I first read it on the back panel of the breakfast cereal Victor's Zammits! (I thought there was too much sugar coating.)