Chemical weapons plant found in Iraq? [Archive]

Jedi Knight

23rd March 2003, 06:46 PM

An Iraqi chemical weapons plant 10 miles across and the UN weapon's inspectors didn't even notice it. Blix better get some new glasses.

The whole inspection regimen is laughable. I bet the US finds tons of other WMD before this is all over. I knew it was going to happen. Best part is--it hasn't even begun to be exposed yet.

JK

Richard G

23rd March 2003, 07:08 PM

Take all the toxins everyone said wasn't there and go dump it in France.

corplinx

23rd March 2003, 07:19 PM

The rule of thumb is that you don't get an accurate report on anything in Iraq until 12 hours after the story breaks.

Jedi Knight

23rd March 2003, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by corplinx
The rule of thumb is that you don't get an accurate report on anything in Iraq until 12 hours after the story breaks.

They want to verify that smoking gun. If it tests dual use or Sarin/VX or Mustard, Blix is through dealing and the UN weapons inspection institution will never be looked upon as credible ever again.

JK

aerocontrols

23rd March 2003, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by corplinx
The rule of thumb is that you don't get an accurate report on anything in Iraq until 12 hours after the story breaks.

We're nearly there, then (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=391016#post391016).

Unless that story was an hour old when I posted it, in which case we are there.

Or maybe we'll wait a little longer than 12 hours.

DrChinese

23rd March 2003, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by ssibal
This is very significant, if its true.

Uh, no, it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be significant at all.

First, if you believe in Bush and the war, then you've always expected WMD to be found. If you didn't believe in Bush and the war, you believe that continued weapons inspections would find it sooner or later, and/or that war is not justified at any rate. I am against war, and I certainly don't see any significance.

Second, it might be worth your time to re-read the article. They found a chemical plant. Pretty much any chemical plant is theoretically capable of produced banned or illegal substances. There were no reports that any WMD were found. So right now you have exactly zilch anyway.

To Mr. Knight: The cited article say the chemical plant was 100 acres in size. That is slightly less than 10 miles across. I was going to make a comment about you not knowing how long 10 inches is, but that would be a cheap shot and inappropriate for this forum.

Troll

23rd March 2003, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by DrChinese

Uh, no, it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be significant at all.

First, if you believe in Bush and the war, then you've always expected WMD to be found. If you didn't believe in Bush and the war, you believe that continued weapons inspections would find it sooner or later, and/or that war is not justified at any rate. I am against war, and I certainly don't see any significance.

Second, it might be worth your time to re-read the article. They found a chemical plant. Pretty much any chemical plant is theoretically capable of produced banned or illegal substances. There were no reports that any WMD were found. So right now you have exactly zilch anyway.

To Mr. Knight: The cited article say the chemical plant was 100 acres in size. That is slightly less than 10 miles across. I was going to make a comment about you not knowing how long 10 inches is, but that would be a cheap shot and inappropriate for this forum.

Oh. so if you expected it, and they are found then they are not really found? do you know what logic is? Just curious

corplinx

23rd March 2003, 07:31 PM

I am sure as soon as it was ascertained that it was a weapons producing facility it was isolated.

They will want to know:
_exactly_ what was produced and how much
how much can be accounted for and how much is missing
where did the missing stuff go

Finding out where any recently moved chemical weapons could prevent something really bad from happening. I sympathize with the military experts who are now working against the clock to account for every gram if this is indeed a chemical weapons plant.

Jedi Knight

23rd March 2003, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by DrChinese

Uh, no, it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be significant at all.

First, if you believe in Bush and the war, then you've always expected WMD to be found. If you didn't believe in Bush and the war, you believe that continued weapons inspections would find it sooner or later, and/or that war is not justified at any rate. I am against war, and I certainly don't see any significance.

Second, it might be worth your time to re-read the article. They found a chemical plant. Pretty much any chemical plant is theoretically capable of produced banned or illegal substances. There were no reports that any WMD were found. So right now you have exactly zilch anyway.

To Mr. Knight: The cited article say the chemical plant was 100 acres in size. That is slightly less than 10 miles across. I was going to make a comment about you not knowing how long 10 inches is, but that would be a cheap shot and inappropriate for this forum.

That is an interesting apologist angle on the Iraqi chemical weapons plant. Something I would expect to hear from a sophomore in college who was only exposed to leftist ideology.

Ask yourself this. Why was it completely camouflaged? Was it making bleach or Sarin?

We could find a nuclear weapon in Iraq and you would probably say it was a firecracker and harmless. It is all about protecting Iraq and shunning the good old USA, right?

JK

a_unique_person

23rd March 2003, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

That is an interesting apologist angle on the Iraqi chemical weapons plant. Something I would expect to hear from a sophomore in college who was only exposed to leftist ideology.

Ask yourself this. Why was it completely camouflaged? Was it making bleach or Sarin?

We could find a nuclear weapon in Iraq and you would probably say it was a firecracker and harmless. It is all about protecting Iraq and shunning the good old USA, right?

JK

some points.

1. iraq is going to have chemical factories, everyone does.
2. it was 100 acres, how could this have not been sighted earlier?
3. if it was making chemical weapons has still to be determined.

DrChinese

23rd March 2003, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Troll

Oh. so if you expected it, and they are found then they are not really found? do you know what logic is? Just curious

Let's see about the logic bit.

I am against the war in Iraq. Whether or not there are chemical weapons there does factor into my decision to oppose war. So finding evidence of chemical weapons would not cause me to question my stand, since it was an acknowledged possibility anyway.

Some people support George Bush in the decision to go to war. One of his reasons to go to war is that he beleives there are chemical weapons in Iraq, and most of his supporters concur. So finding evidence of chemical weapons would not cause them to question their stand, since it is what they expected anyway.

Do I need to explain this again?

DrChinese

23rd March 2003, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

That is an interesting apologist angle on the Iraqi chemical weapons plant. Something I would expect to hear from a sophomore in college who was only exposed to leftist ideology.

Ask yourself this. Why was it completely camouflaged? Was it making bleach or Sarin?

We could find a nuclear weapon in Iraq and you would probably say it was a firecracker and harmless. It is all about protecting Iraq and shunning the good old USA, right?

JK

They didn't find a "nu-cu-ler" weapon, Jed. Right now we have a chemical plant, no chemical weapons. When you get something more, lemme know.

P.S. It's not a smoking gun if it's not smoking, and it's not a gun.

corplinx

23rd March 2003, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by DrChinese

I am against the war in Iraq.

Just curious, do you support Saddam, are you anti-bush and therefore anti-war, or are you just apathetic?

I find zero people fall in the first camp (although who would admit that), some people fall in the second, and most fall into the third.

corplinx

23rd March 2003, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by DrChinese

Right now we have a chemical plant, no chemical weapons.

Right now we do not even have a chemical plant as far as I am concerned. I want to see some proof that they have found _anything_ .

aerocontrols

23rd March 2003, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by a_unique_person
1. iraq is going to have chemical factories, everyone does.

Does everyone have chemical factories that are "camouflage[d]... so it looked like the surrounding [area] and would not be spotted from the air"?

Originally posted by a_unique_person
2. it was 100 acres, how could this have not been sighted earlier?

Perhaps it was the camouflage. If not that, perhaps difference is the presence of 200,000 inspectors who don't stop and wait at the gate.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
3. if it was making chemical weapons has still to be determined.

Indeed it does.

MattJ

John Bryce

23rd March 2003, 08:05 PM

Reports of Iraq chemical cache 'premature': Pentagon (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/03/23/chemicals_030323)

WASHINGTON - Stories by some media outlets that U.S. forces have uncovered a suspected chemical weapons factory in Iraq may be wrong, the Pentagon cautioned late Sunday.

DrChinese

23rd March 2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by corplinx

Just curious, do you support Saddam, are you anti-bush and therefore anti-war, or are you just apathetic?

I find zero people fall in the first camp (although who would admit that), some people fall in the second, and most fall into the third.

1. I hate Saddam. The world will be a better place when he is not in it.

2. I support Bush when he makes sense, don't support him when he doesn't. I was willing to go with him on Afghanistan, though I had a few qualms. I certainly don't hold it against anyone that Osama hasn't been found yet. But Iraq is off the scale, a completely contrived scenario. Iraq is no threat to the US, and it is up to the UN to enforce or not enforce sanctions. At this time, I think there is something seriously wrong with Bush. Seriously.

3. If I were apathetic, I wouldn't be on this forum.

Bjorn

23rd March 2003, 08:41 PM

John Bryce is quoting Pentagon:
WASHINGTON - Stories by some media outlets that U.S. forces have uncovered a suspected chemical weapons factory in Iraq may be wrong, the Pentagon cautioned late Sunday. And AUP was just saying:

3. if it was making chemical weapons has still to be determined. So Pentagon actually agrees with AUP for the time being? :p

a_unique_person

23rd March 2003, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by aerocontrols

Does everyone have chemical factories that are "camouflage[d]... so it looked like the surrounding [area] and would not be spotted from the air"?

If i was building anything to do with chemicals in iraq, i would camoflage it. even common drugs could not be imported into iraq as they were deemed to be usable in biological and chemical weapons.

crackmonkey

23rd March 2003, 09:04 PM

It would be an unusual chemical factory indeed to be draped in camoflage, be surrounded by electrical wire, staffed by Iraqi troops and run by an Iraqi army general. A general who is spilling the beans as I type.
Just a run-of-the-mill fertilizer plant, right? I mean, they're all run by generals, huh?

The Fool

23rd March 2003, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by crackmonkey
It would be an unusual chemical factory indeed to be draped in camoflage, be surrounded by electrical wire, staffed by Iraqi troops and run by an Iraqi army general. A general who is spilling the beans as I type.
Just a run-of-the-mill fertilizer plant, right? I mean, they're all run by generals, huh?
Hmmmm. You will excuse me If I wait until I see a photograph of this place, along with evidence of what it contains? I have seen 1500 Turkish commandoes vanish recently......anything is possible:)

ImpyTimpy

23rd March 2003, 10:34 PM

But the news agencies have reported it so why do you need to see photographs? We all know news agency reports are the ultimate proof of things..

:rolleyes:
:p

Originally posted by The Fool

Hmmmm. You will excuse me If I wait until I see a photograph of this place, along with evidence of what it contains? I have seen 1500 Turkish commandoes vanish recently......anything is possible:)

crackmonkey

23rd March 2003, 11:34 PM

The plant was shown on one of the cable channels. I'm certain that you'll hear plenty about it soon.

Skeptic

24th March 2003, 06:42 AM

Uh, no, it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be significant at all. First, if you believe in Bush and the war, then you've always expected WMD to be found.

That is like saying that if you are a detective that believes someone if guilty of murder but don't have hard proof, then finding the bloody knife in his possession is totally insignificant since you "always expected him to be the murderer".

On your view, if the coalition forces find 500 hydrogen bombs neatly stacked in rows, with labels saying "Washington, D.C.", "New York", "London", "Jerusalem", etc., that too would be insignificantl--after all, "If you believe Bush, you..."

Skeptic

24th March 2003, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by a_unique_person

If i was building anything to do with chemicals in iraq, i would camoflage it. even common drugs could not be imported into iraq as they were deemed to be usable in biological and chemical weapons.

That might explain the camoflage, but you forget the 100-acre-size, the barbed wire fences, and the fact that this plant was run by army personnel. Call me unduly suspicious, but...

It's not as if AUP actually knows the first thing about chemical factories, camoflage, or WMD, of course. He just FEELS IN HIS BONES (by instinct, from 8000 miles away, without even seeing a photograph of the place) that this is just an innocent factory, and that's that. He will NOT stand idle as evil coalition propaganda is trying to defame Mr. Hussein, the savior of the Iraqi people!

Stalin had a name for people like AUP, who just KNEW by instinct the USSR is wonderful, and everything bad about it is "propaganda"--despite never being within a thousand miles of its borders. The term was "useful idiots". Stalin is Saddam's role model, as he repeatedly said, and it's very likely Saddam thinks of AUP and his ilk as "useful idiots" as well.

Oh, and by the way--they just found another suspected WMD plant. Wait, don't tell me, AUP: you just heard about this from me this minute, but your psychic powers have instantly decided that THE TRUTH(tm) is that it is an innocent factory as well, no matter what the COALITION PROPAGANDA says...

DavidJames

24th March 2003, 07:13 AM

" He just FEELS IN HIS BONES (by instinct, from 8000 miles away, without even seeing a photograph of the place) that this is just an innocent factory"

And of course, you are reaching the opposite conclusion using exactly the same process. He is being skeptical of the claims, you, Skeptic, seem to accept what your told, assuming it fits into you preconceived political bias.

"but your psychic powers have instantly decided that THE TRUTH(tm) is that it is an innocent factory as well, no matter what the COALITION PROPAGANDA says..."

Re-read my response above :rolleyes:

ssibal

24th March 2003, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by DavidJames
And of course, you are reaching the opposite conclusion using exactly the same process. He is being skeptical of the claims, you, Skeptic, seem to accept what your told, assuming

I dunno, it seems more likely that a camoflaged plant surrounded by an electric fence and administered by a high ranking military official would be producing something more than asprins or cough syrup. We will soon find out what is in there, if anything.

chulbert

24th March 2003, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Skeptic
That is like saying that if you are a detective that believes someone if guilty of murder but don't have hard proof, then finding the bloody knife in his possession is totally insignificant since you "always expected him to be the murderer".

Not exactly.

The knife is significant to the fictional detective because he cannot act (prosecute) without it.

subgenius

24th March 2003, 01:11 PM

Latest news: appears to have been abandoned by the Iraqi's long ago.

http://www.datekdj.newsalert.com/bin/djstory?StoryId=CpN6q0aebqLqWmduWmJu

Baker

24th March 2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by subgenius
Latest news: appears to have been abandoned by the Iraqi's long ago.

http://www.datekdj.newsalert.com/bin/djstory?StoryId=CpN6q0aebqLqWmduWmJu

NBC News reported from the Pentagon that no chemicals at all were found at the site. CNN, also reporting from the Pentagon, said officials now believe the plant there was abandoned long ago by the Iraqis.

I can't find anything confirming this on either NBC or the CNN site.

ssibal

24th March 2003, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by Baker

I can't find anything confirming this on either NBC or the CNN site.

Me neither, and as I was flipping through the cable news channels I saw on the ticker that it still has not been determined if the plant has chemical weapons in it or not.

Bjorn

24th March 2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by The Fool

Hmmmm. You will excuse me If I wait until I see a photograph of this place, along with evidence of what it contains? I have seen 1500 Turkish commandoes vanish recently......anything is possible:) Hmmm .... Seems like Fool was quite on the mark all the time? :confused:

a_unique_person

24th March 2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Baker

I can't find anything confirming this on either NBC or the CNN site.

of course not. they are always quick to accuse, but not retract. (The army, that is), I recall the news sites did make it clear, when notified of the story, that nothing was confirmed.