One for you JK, Israel and Russian trying to sell helicopter to Turkey

[a_unique_person]

What is the correct stand to take on this issue?

http://www.fas.org/asmp/library/asm/asm39.html



ARMS SALES MONITOR

Highlighting U.S. government policies on arms exports and conventional weapons proliferation



"Preserving the Military Balance" in the Aegean?

More Arms Sales to Turkey…

In the next few months, the Turkish government will decide which of three models—Bell Textron's AH-1W Super Cobra, Boeing's AH-64 Apache Longbow, or Kamov Helicopter's Ka-50/2 Black Shark (in cooperation with Israeli Aircraft Industries)—will win the bid for 145 attack helicopters, a deal worth about $3.5 billion. While Turkey apparently finds the U.S. models technically superior, anticipation of Congressional opposition to the sale might prompt it to choose the Russian-Israeli helicopter instead.

[corplinx]

Turkey may be acting wishy-washy but they are one of the most moderate mideast countries. If they do try to stage a land grab in the coming days in northern Iraq, they may find themselves on the Bush/Powell shitlist. Especially since we have been lobbying for nato membership and trying to get Turkey accepted by the west. Don't you hate vouching for someone only to have them piss all over the favor?

[a_unique_person]

And the Russia/Israeli angle?

[Troll]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
And the Russia/Israeli angle?

Free market competition, as do politics makes strange bedfellows.

Why should the Israelies and the russians not work together a little on some things? We work with the Russians and the Israelis on a variety of things.

[corplinx]

I am sure these deals were on the table before the Turks pulled their border run this week. Mind you, it is still to be seen if this action was malevolent or not.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
What is the correct stand to take on this issue?


The correct stand I think would be to watch and wait. There is a lack of information that could help form an opinion.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
And the Russia/Israeli angle?

The Russians are always selling their patents to their military technology. The Communist Chinese have purchased more Russian military patents than any other country on earth.

Countries do that so they can manufacture weapons designed by Russian research and development companies without the high price-tag of buying direct.

JK

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


The Russians are always selling their patents to their military technology. The Communist Chinese have purchased more Russian military patents than any other country on earth.

Countries do that so they can manufacture weapons designed by Russian research and development companies without the high price-tag of buying direct.

JK

So there is no interest in the fact that Russia is teamed up with Israel to sell arms to a muslim country?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


So there is no interest in the fact that Russia is teamed up with Israel to sell arms to a muslim country?

You mean a NATO country.

JK

[Troll]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


So there is no interest in the fact that Russia is teamed up with Israel to sell arms to a muslim country?

Not if there are no sanctions preventing the sale of said weapons to said country, be it muslim or any other.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You mean a NATO country.

JK

So you have no interest in Isreal teaming up with Russia to do arms deals?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


So there is no interest in the fact that Russia is teamed up with Israel to sell arms to a muslim country?

Not from me. Turkey has been building trust within the international community for a good while. How does the fact that they are muslim come into it? They aren't a theocracy based on an intolerant doctrine after all.

[renata]

Partial list of countries Australia sold weapons to
Pakistan
Bangladesh
Papua New Guinea
Phillippines
Myanmar
Indonesia
Brazil

And do you know who also bought Israeli weapons? That is correct, Austalia!

Does it not bother you that Australia is exporting weapons to Muslim countries? Does it not bother you that Australia is buying Israeli weapons?

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1991/34/34p10.htm
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1991/21/21p10.htm
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/isrl_arms_2india.html

[neutrino_cannon]

How could they even compare the Ah-64 to the cobra? The cobra's too old, even the z model doesn't hold a candle to the longbow. As for the kamov, I can see it being cheaper, but turkey has a lot of western equipemnt, so commonality may be an issue.

I might just choose the akula to be different. Always liked the stacked rotors. Or, heck I'd just buy the atlas cheetah. Homespun South Aferican helicopter, there's different for you.

I almost hope that they choose the Russian design, as it was originaly intended that one way the economy could pick itself back up was through arms sales.

Years later, and still more designs than sales, Mikoyan Gurevich, Sukhio and Mil, to name a few are still struggling. It seems the Americans have cornered the market, despite consolidations, debt and cutbacks on both sides.

[John Bryce]

AH-1W SuperCobra (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/supcobra/index.html)

AH-64A/D Apache (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/apache/index.html)

Ka-50-2 Black Shark (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ka50/)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by renata
Partial list of countries Australia sold weapons to
Pakistan
Bangladesh
Papua New Guinea
Phillippines
Myanmar
Indonesia
Brazil

And do you know who also bought Israeli weapons? That is correct, Austalia!

Does it not bother you that Australia is exporting weapons to Muslim countries? Does it not bother you that Australia is buying Israeli weapons?

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1991/34/34p10.htm
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1991/21/21p10.htm
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/isrl_arms_2india.html

the arms trade in general bothers me.

As the topic suggests, I am interested in JKs current interest in Russia as a communist state out there helping Saddam, while Israel is doing a deal on an attack helicopter they want to sell to Turkey.

The morality(or lack of), self contradictions, opportunism and hypocrisy of it all is mind boggling.

[Troll]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


the arms trade in general bothers me.

As the topic suggests, I am interested in JKs current interest in Russia as a communist state out there helping Saddam, while Israel is doing a deal on an attack helicopter they want to sell to Turkey.

The morality(or lack of), self contradictions, opportunism and hypocrisy of it all is mind boggling.

Not sure I follow you here. We're talking about the Israelis sale of Russian designed weapons to a muslim country. Are you sure it's not the Israelis sale to muslims that concerns you as it detracts from your many previous remarks about the Israelis alleged hate of muslims?

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by renata
Partial list of countries Australia sold weapons to
Pakistan
Bangladesh
Papua New Guinea
Phillippines
Myanmar
Indonesia
Brazil

And do you know who also bought Israeli weapons? That is correct, Austalia!

Does it not bother you that Australia is exporting weapons to Muslim countries? Does it not bother you that Australia is buying Israeli weapons?

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1991/34/34p10.htm
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1991/21/21p10.htm
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/isrl_arms_2india.html

This "proof" of israeli "perfidity" is typical of AUP, Renata.

I noted in another thread that one of the reasons Russia and France are opposed to the war is probably that they sold Saddam lots of weapons and bought lots of oil, and would be embarrased to have this discovered. So AUP "countered" with the evidence (not exactly the biggest secret in the world, of course) that israel sells arms to Turkey.

Apparently AUP believes that openly selling conventional weapons to a modern democracy, like Turkey, is somehow equivalent to secretly selling chemical-weapons capabilities (and God knows what else) to one of the world's most despotic regimes, like Iraq.

Go figure.

By the way, funny how all of a sudden AUP is really concerned about muslim countries getting armed... is he admitting armed muslims are bad news for their neighbors? How can that be if Islam is a religion of peace?

At any rate, he's wrong (big surprise): Turkey is only a muslim country in a nominal sense. Thanks to Mustafa Kamel Ataturk, who destroyed the power of the muslim clerics in the 1920s, Turkey is now a secular democracy. If anything, radical islam sees the "apostate" Turkey, which actually dares to give non-muslims equal rights instead of periodically butchering them, as a worse enemy than the "infidel" jews and christians.

[Skeptic]

the arms trade in general bothers me.

Funny, though, how the ONLY examples you gave of this evil trade in arms, which bothers you so "generally", just HAPPENED be those who involve the jews (er... israel).

Pure coincidence, I'm sure.

By the way, have you heard of the black guy who stabbed a white guy last week in NYC? Or about the black guy who raped a white woman last month in LA? How about that ring of black drug dealers send to prison yesterday in Philadelphia?

Me? A racist? Nah--it's just crime in general that bothers me.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Troll


Not sure I follow you here. We're talking about the Israelis sale of Russian designed weapons to a muslim country. Are you sure it's not the Israelis sale to muslims that concerns you as it detracts from your many previous remarks about the Israelis alleged hate of muslims?

The mix of ambiguity and ambivalence was intriguing, and I wondered what JK was to make of it all.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You mean a NATO country.

JK

If you read the article, the russian/israeli consortium is in the bidding because of concerns that Congress could block the sale.