Ali Seifoori

[Orangutan]

Re This Thread:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=30405

I wonder if he denies a trained attack dog will bite him?

Pesonally I would be willing to donate to a fund to put him in a padded canvas suit and have a police handler sic a police attack dog on him.

We could donate the money raised to the charity of choice of the police force helping with the test.

All I ask in return for my donation is that the whole event is captured on video and posted on this site so I can laugh my socks off.

Simon.

PS lots of ;)s attaced to this posting.

;) ;) ;)

[Kimpatsu]

I'm sure the local police force wherever Ali Bongo lives in the UK wouldn't mind helping out, for charity. And I, too, would pay good money for a video of this.

[KRAMER]

Originally posted by Orangutan
I wonder if he denies a trained attack dog will bite him?


His claim letter specifically states NO DOG.

I'd really love to see this claim tested.

[Brian]

Originally posted by KRAMER
His claim letter specifically states NO DOG.

I'd really love to see this claim tested.

Well, it could be. As was mentioned in the first post. If he doesn't go into hiding maybe run it past him. He'll have to pay for all expenses of course. I believe a police dog can be called off as quick as it can be set on a person, shouldn't be too dangerous with the right gear..

[misawafan]

Do we know for sure that it wasn't this guy?

http://www.local6.com/news/3887764/detail.html

[KRAMER]

No, the applicant was Iranian, and emailing from London.

[misawafan]

I wonder if the notion of involving lions with lunatic schemes is part of a new growing trend? If so I'm all for it and look forward to some very entertaining news reports...

[DrMatt]

Originally posted by KRAMER
His claim letter specifically states NO DOG.

I'd really love to see this claim tested.

Help! I'm being attacked by NO DOG!

[KRAMER]

Well, this applicant has just won the prize for the most foul-mouthed tirade ever offered in response to JREF's position regarding his claim.

I cannot post it (due to its profane content), but I can tell you that he told me where to go, along with specifics on what would be done to me there once I arrived.

He then told me to take "Randy Boy" with me.

We blocked his email address.

[KRAMER]

Well, I blocked his email, but Randi did not...

===========================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Ali Seifoori [mailto:*****************]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:24 PM
To: randi@randi.org
Subject: RE: Challenge

Dear Mr. Randi,

As you know some people do anything to get rich: unfortunately I've overstepped my limit and in the process disgraced only myself.

I now apologise once more, and make a quick exit.

Yours faithfully

Ali

[Ali]

Hi,
I'm Ali; my claim is true. Unfortunately I cannot demonstrate my powers for the time being.

[eri]

Hi Ali! Welcome to the forums!

As you probably know, the JREF FAQ states that the JREF will not accept a protocal that could involve the applicant being injured. Since your original claim seems as though it could involve personal injury if things don't go as planned, how might you get around that? Do you have a similar power that could be tested safely?

Also, how do you know that no dog (or lion) will bite you? I've never been biten either, but that's probably because I don't spend much time around lions or unfriendly dogs.

[GzuzKryzt]

Hi,
I'm Ali; my claim is true. Unfortunately I cannot demonstrate my powers for the time being.

How do you propose to demonstrate your "powers"?
What will constitute a success?
What will constitute a failure?
Can you provide proof that someone has witnessed your "powers"?

[Thomas]

Hi,
I'm Ali; my claim is true. Unfortunately I cannot demonstrate my powers for the time being.
If you can't take the challenge because the million dollar prize will overstep your limits for cashing in on your powers (as you claimed in the letter to Randi). Then I hereby invite you to do it for free, or otherwise you could take the prize and donate it all to a charity of your own choice.

As per this thread I'm not really sure what your claim is (the OP link isn't working), but we should be able to test your claim with a protection suit and a trained attack dog if you claim that such a dog won't bite you. Is that your claim?

ETA: Ok, I found your claim (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=30405). "No DOG, whatever its size, no matter how wild or how hungry, will bite me". This should be easy to test with a trained attack dog and a protection suit, you don't need to worry about the prize. Would you agree to such a test?

[Ali]

Of course I want the $1m prize, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time.
However I don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more.

[Skeptic Guy]

Of course I want the $1m prize, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time.
However I don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more.

Ali, the "I don't think the prize is real" claim is usually the first excuse used to sidestep being tested. However, since it seems that there is a real potential for your own personal harm, I think it best that you just walk away.

[Thomas]

Of course I want the $1m prize, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time.
However I don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more.
The prize is there, but it's very usual for frauds to claim that it isn't so they have an excuse for not being tested.

I ask again, would you agree to a test where we sic a trained dog on you while you're in a protection suit?
Ali, the "I don't think the prize is real" claim is usually the first excuse used to sidestep being tested. However, since it seems that there is a real potential for your own personal harm, I think it best that you just walk away.
I fail to see how he would get harmed if he's in a protection suit and we use a trained dog.

[rjh01]

Of course I want the $1m prize, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time.
However I don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more.

On what basis do you make that claim? Wishful thinking maybe:D ?

[Ginarley]

I fail to see how he would get harmed if he's in a protection suit and we use a trained dog.

Except that you could argue the dog bit the suit and not him (and given police dogs are trained on those suits its a fair call.) The only fair trial would be to expose him to real harm and that of course is outside the rules.

[Thomas]

Except that you could argue the dog bit the suit and not him (and given police dogs are trained on those suits its a fair call.) The only fair trial would be to expose him to real harm and that of course is outside the rules.
And if he had a sweater on, you could argue that the dog attacked the sweater, and if we strip him naked you could say the dog didn't like his skin color, and blah blah blah.

His claim is that no dog will attack him, that's it, and I think it's fair to test that claim by siccing a dog on him provided he is well protected. His sweater, pants, skin color or what else he might would wear, is not part of his claim, and perhaps you should let him change his claim himself, if he wants to.

[Foolmewunz]

Dogs Schmogs! Let's get back to the idea of LIONS. I'm with Misawafan - this could brighten up an otherwise very repetitive news hour!

[GzuzKryzt]

Of course I want the $1m prize, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time.
However I don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more.

Which makes perfect sense because you:

1. Want something which you don't think is for real
2. Don't think the Prize is for real and start posting in the Challenge Section.

:rolleyes:



Say, Ali, when can we expect your first rant?

Or, for that matter, a demonstration of your "abilities" on e.g. a local TV station? JREF, Schmayref. "Demonstration: any setting of your choice." Your move.

[Ginarley]

And if he had a sweater on, you could argue that the dog attacked the sweater, and if we strip him naked you could say the dog didn't like his skin color, and blah blah blah.

His claim is that no dog will attack him, that's it, and I think it's fair to test that claim by siccing a dog on him provided he is well protected. His sweater, pants, skin color or what else he might would wear, is not part of his claim, and perhaps you should let him change his claim himself, if he wants to.

Firstly I was going by the original post in this thread which specifically said "bite". Attack is a whole different story.

Secondly, police dogs are specifically trained by making them first bite into those suits and rewarding them, and then gradually translating that to people. It is not the same as a sweater or skin colour at all and you could not be at all satisfied that the test was adequately failed if they bit the protective suits that the police use. Proper controls apply to ensuring the test is fair to both parties, not just to ensuring people don't cheat.

[GzuzKryzt]

How could "the purposes of the challenge in fact be accomplished" in this situation, Ginarley?

Sounds familiar?

Well? :rolleyes:

[Thomas]

Firstly I was going by the original post in this thread which specifically said "bite". Attack is a whole different story.
Is it really? What would you suppose the attacking police dog would do instead of biting? Tornado kicks? Head locks? Try to think about what police dogs actually do when sicced on a person.


Secondly, police dogs are specifically trained by making them first bite into those suits and rewarding them, and then gradually translating that to people. It is not the same as a sweater or skin colour at all and you could not be at all satisfied that the test was adequately failed if they bit the protective suits that the police use.

Proper controls apply to ensuring the test is fair to both parties, not just to ensuring people don't cheat.
A proper protection suit will merely make him look like a fat guy (http://www.fordogtrainer.com/pics/bitesuits/dog-training-equipment-dog-bite-suit-police-dog-schutzhund-service.jpg). So by your logic, a police dog is trained to attack fat guys. But in reality a police dog attacks the person despite how they look. And this is evident by the fact that they attack people with or without a suit by the very same sic command, the very same places.

Your concern that the dog would attack the suit and not Ali, isn't justified when you consider how these suits look, and what these dogs actually are trained to do. But I must congratulate you on trying to provide Ali with a possible (but not justified) "out" before he even got to answer himself.

[Ali]

Hi guys,
I havn't tried disarming a dog by wearing any protective clothing.
If the dog decides to bite it will squeal away, or go quiet, or.... :
different dogs seem to behave differently when faced with retreat as their only choice.

[GzuzKryzt]

Hi guys,
I havn't tried disarming a dog by wearing any protective clothing.
If the dog decides to bite it will squeal away, or go quiet, or.... :
different dogs seem to behave differently when faced with retreat as their only choice.

How do you propose to demonstrate your "powers" (to anyone but JREF, since you are "not taking it seriously any more"?
What will constitute a success?
What will constitute a failure?
Can you provide proof that someone has witnessed your "powers", i.e. have you successfully done this before?
What exactly "are" you doing anyway?

[vIQleS]

If the dog decides to bite it will squeal away, or go quiet, or.... :
different dogs seem to behave differently when faced with retreat as their only choice.

This is the most telling statement so far - "...if the dog decides to bite..."

Ask yourself - how do you know that a dog "decided to bite" you.

You have no way of knowing if a dog would have bitten you, unless you can read its mind or know the future. (both of which should also be testable under the $1m challenge)

A dog doesn't always approach you with the intent to attack or even bite. It may be barking in the hopes that you will run away, or it might be growling with 'cautious optimism' just in case you might be a source of treats or pats...

Doing the test with a dog that's been trained to attack on cue solves this problem, that's what you need to do before you apply again.

[rjh01]

How to stop a dog from attacking you.
1. Stare at it
2. Approach it
3. Make LOTS of noise.

This proves to the dog that you are a bigger and stronger than you are and will run away. I must admit I have only tried this once and it worked.

You should only run away from a dog if you think you can get away. If you run and it catches you it will do the maximum damage to you.

[Ginarley]

Is it really? What would you suppose the attacking police dog would do instead of biting? Tornado kicks? Head locks? Try to think about what police dogs actually do when sicced on a person.

A proper protection suit will merely make him look like a fat guy (http://www.fordogtrainer.com/pics/bitesuits/dog-training-equipment-dog-bite-suit-police-dog-schutzhund-service.jpg). So by your logic, a police dog is trained to attack fat guys. But in reality a police dog attacks the person despite how they look. And this is evident by the fact that they attack people with or without a suit by the very same sic command, the very same places.

Your concern that the dog would attack the suit and not Ali, isn't justified when you consider how these suits look, and what these dogs actually are trained to do. But I must congratulate you on trying to provide Ali with a possible (but not justified) "out" before he even got to answer himself.

All I am doing is applying the same rigour to determining that there is no false negative as to whether there is no false positive. It is a very procedure that ignores bias if it is in your favour.

Police dogs are trained by them attacking suits like that without any person in them and then rewarded. Then they are trained to attack people in those suits, and finally to attack unsuited people in a similar way. However it remains that the dogs are trained to attack the suits so you could not be certain enough that the dog attacked the person and not the suit to be able to be sure the test was failed.

Finally consider this:

The suit actually prevents the dog from biting the person in it right? It is pretty easy to pass a test where you say the dog can't bite you if it actually can't thanks to a suit! It can still attack the person wearing the suit though.

[GzuzKryzt]

We need a detailed description of his "claim" from Mr. Seifoori first. Then we may have a legit reason to start to bitchslap one another.

I would like to know how you, Mr. Seifoori, realized what you claimed here: How no dog - or even lion - will bite you. Why would that be? Will you shoot 'em first? Or run away? Extreme BO? Energy beam? Aura? All of the above?
We're listening.

[Skeptic Guy]

We need a detailed description of his "claim" from Mr. Seifoori first. Then we may have a legit reason to start to bitchslap one another.

I would like to know how you, Mr. Seifoori, realized what you claimed here: How no dog - or even lion - will bite you. Why would that be? Will you shoot 'em first? Or run away? Extreme BO? Energy beam? Aura? All of the above?
We're listening.

I am all for that. I suppose if he were to agree to wear the protective suit and that he did not think wearing said protective suit would interfere with his "powers", it would be good enough for me, but I am not sure Mr. Randi would go for it.

But as you said, let Mr Seifoori make the claim...

[Thomas]

All I am doing is applying the same rigour to determining that there is no false negative as to whether there is no false positive. It is a very procedure that ignores bias if it is in your favour.

Police dogs are trained by them attacking suits like that without any person in them and then rewarded. Then they are trained to attack people in those suits, and finally to attack unsuited people in a similar way. However it remains that the dogs are trained to attack the suits so you could not be certain enough that the dog attacked the person and not the suit to be able to be sure the test was failed.

Finally consider this:

The suit actually prevents the dog from biting the person in it right? It is pretty easy to pass a test where you say the dog can't bite you if it actually can't thanks to a suit! It can still attack the person wearing the suit though.
Yes, by biting. But that doesn't matter, because all we have to do to eliminate your (assumption based) concern, is to ask him if no dog will bite him or the protective suit he's wearing. No big deal.

I would like to know how you, Mr. Seifoori, realized what you claimed here: How no dog - or even lion - will bite you. Why would that be? Will you shoot 'em first? Or run away? Extreme BO? Energy beam? Aura? All of the above?
We're listening.
If he specified that, then we could perhaps demolish the claim right here of course (and that's why I doubt he will do it), but for now, I think it's fair enough to consider if the claim even is testable within ethical limits.

I am all for that. I suppose if he were to agree to wear the protective suit and that he did not think wearing said protective suit would interfere with his "powers", it would be good enough for me, but I am not sure Mr. Randi would go for it.
JREF has closed his file after he threatened Randi and Kramer, so I don't think he can be tested by JREF at all. But, if he agrees that no dog will bite him or the protective suit he's wearing, then I guess there's a slim chance that the British police could test him on a normal dog training day - with British skeptics as observers. And then we could take it from there if he passed.

[GzuzKryzt]

...
JREF has closed his file after he threatened Randi and Kramer, so I don't think he can be tested by JREF at all. But, if he agrees that no dog will bite him or the protective suit he's wearing, then I guess there's a slim chance that the British police could test him on a normal dog training day - with British skeptics as observers. And then we could take it from there if he passed.

Exactly.

Given a proper "unofficial" test execution by British skeptics and a significant better-than-chance result, I consider it very likely the JREF will let him apply again.

Sour grapes won't stand in the way of Mr. Seifoori's chance at the Million, for shizzle.

Mr. Seifoori, we're looking forward to your claim description and protocol suggestions.

[fuelair]

Of course I want the $1m prize, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time.
However I don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more.

Good.


Riddance. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Ali]

Hi,
I've already said in my claim regarding my powers, and how it can be tested (any setting will do).
As to the origins of my powers: they are gifts from God.
If you don't believe in God: that's your problem, I'm not going to waste my time talking, whether you're a believer or not.

[GzuzKryzt]

Hi,
I've already said in my claim regarding my powers, and how it can be tested (any setting will do).
As to the origins of my powers: they are gifts from God.
If you don't believe in God: that's your problem, I'm not going to waste my time talking, whether you're a believer or not.

Ali, your attitude will most likely not promote your "powers" to be recognized by an enquiring audience. Your call.

Have you already successfully achieved what you claim to be able to do? http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=30405

And, again, what exactly do you do?

And why do you post in this forum?

[Ririon]

Hi,
I've already said in my claim regarding my powers, and how it can be tested (any setting will do).
As to the origins of my powers: they are gifts from God.
If you don't believe in God: that's your problem, I'm not going to waste my time talking, whether you're a believer or not.
I don't believe you have those powers. A simple demonstration will change my mind. The God thing is a whole other issue. Let's not get tangled up in that.

[Ali]

Even though they knew God they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him: instead their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

It's by obedience and right thinking, (and therefore right attitude), that I have been given my supernatural powers.

[TheBoyPaj]

Ali, you're a disgrace.

[GzuzKryzt]

Even though they knew God they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him: instead their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

It's by obedience and right thinking, (and therefore right attitude), that I have been given my supernatural powers.

When, where and how have you first discovered these "supernatural powers"?

What exactly do you claim to do and for which specific purpose do you post on this forum, Ali?

[Patricio Elicer]

Ali, you're a disgrace.TheBoyPaj, please refrain from making remarks of that kind. Attacking the argument is OK, attacking the person is not.

[TheBoyPaj]

I was just reminding him.

Dear Mr. Randi,

As you know some people do anything to get rich: unfortunately I've overstepped my limit and in the process disgraced only myself.

Ali

[Ali]

Hi,
It’s been a winding quest for me to know who God is.
My code of behaviour and thought towards God has been pleasing in his sight:
He therefore gave me gifts to show this.
An enquiring mind to continue my quest, and obviously the $1m is why I post on this forum.

[Ririon]

Hi,
It’s been a winding quest for me to know who God is.
My code of behaviour and thought towards God has been pleasing in his sight:
He therefore gave me gifts to show this.
An enquiring mind to continue my quest, and obviously the $1m is why I post on this forum.
You can't be the real Ali then, since he can no longer get the million because of behaving like a... Well, for being very unpleasant (and I will take KRAMER's word for that). I know of no God who is pleased by such behavour, but since you are on a quest you may have encountered one that is... So who are you?

[GzuzKryzt]

Hi,
It’s been a winding quest for me to know who God is.
My code of behaviour and thought towards God has been pleasing in his sight:
He therefore gave me gifts to show this.
An enquiring mind to continue my quest, and obviously the $1m is why I post on this forum.

When, where and how have you first discovered these "supernatural powers"?

What exactly do you claim to do and for which specific purpose do you post on this forum, Ali, since you let us know in post #15 in this very thread that you "don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more"?

[Ali]

I was in a field in the early hours when not dawn yet.
Nobody talked to me….
At the break of dawn the ring of stars disappeared.

I then left the fields. The dog at the gate…...

[GzuzKryzt]

I was in a field in the early hours when not dawn yet.
Nobody talked to me….
At the break of dawn the ring of stars disappeared.

I then left the fields. The dog at the gate…...

Dare I ask again? I do because I do not understand how your above quoted post relates to my inquiry.

When, where and how have you first discovered these "supernatural powers"?

What exactly do you claim to do and for which specific purpose do you post on this forum, Ali, since you let us know in post #15 in this very thread that you "don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more"?

[Ali]

When, where and how have you first discovered these "supernatural powers"?



When: ~1990
Where: UK (~Midlands)
How: see previous post

[GzuzKryzt]

When: ~1990
Where: UK (~Midlands)
How: see previous post

The sentence "I then left the fields. The dog at the gate…..." in the "previous post" does not explain anything except your continued dodging of the question.

Also, again: What exactly do you claim to do?

For which specific purpose do you post on this forum, Ali, since you let us know in post #15 in this very thread that you "don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more"?

[Ali]

The sentence "I then left the fields. The dog at the gate…..." in the "previous post" does not explain anything except your continued dodging of the question.

Also, again: What exactly do you claim to do?

For which specific purpose do you post on this forum, Ali, since you let us know in post #15 in this very thread that you "don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more"?
My claim is very simply stated in my letter to Mr. Randi which is available online on this forum! Let me know what you don't understand about it.

As to how I first found out my supernatural attribute, referring to my earlier post: the dog at the gate could not get aggressive; and later on the same day another dog attacked but was disabled due to my paranormal powers, it squealed away but attacked again but it squealed away again, this happened for about 5 times.

For which specific purpose do I post on this forum? Read my earlier post and if you don't understand it then read it again.

[GzuzKryzt]

My claim is very simply stated in my letter to Mr. Randi which is available online on this forum! Let me know what you don't understand about it.

Ali, you describe what happens. "No lion, whatever its size, no matter how wild or how hungry, will bite me. Demonstration: any setting of your choice."

You do not describe what you actually do, or how you intend to prove it. Also, you do not describe what will constitute a successful demonstration of your claimed ability or a failure thereof. It is your responsibility to tell the JREF this in your claim description.


...
For which specific purpose do I post on this forum? Read my earlier post and if you don't understand it then read it again.

You made two contradictory statements in post #15, Ali.

1. "Of course I want the $1m prize, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time."

2. "However I don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more."

I read it several times and it still seems contradicting. Why would you want something which you do not think "is for real"?

No offense, Ali, but the idea that not even an almost starved-to-death wild lion would not "bite" you seems ludicrous. Has someone ever witnessed your "supernatural attribute"? If so, would he be ready to sign an affidavit that he did?


Ali, are you the same Ali which sent KRAMER the "most foul-mouthed tirade ever offered in response to JREF's position regarding his claim"?

[Reno]

Ali, I have a lttle Yorkshire terrier who wears a pink bow in her hair. She stands approx 5 inches from the ground to her shoulder. Her name is Maizie. You come to me and I'll guarantee she'll bite you right in the ass.

[Ali]

Ali, I have a lttle Yorkshire terrier who wears a pink bow in her hair. She stands approx 5 inches from the ground to her shoulder. Her name is Maizie. You come to me and I'll guarantee she'll bite you right in the ass.

Hi Reno,
That's why it is called a supernatural power.
What is impossible for man is possible with God.
I don't need your or any man’s guarantee as to what not: as they say, "seeing is believing".

[TheBoyPaj]

But we won't ever see, will we? Because you will never agree to be tested for this claim.

So why are you here?

[Ali]

Hi GzuzKryzt,
I'm a little curious in your signature.
What is it of God that you distrust?

[Thomas]

Hi GzuzKryzt,
I'm a little curious in your signature.
What is it of God that you distrust?
I think he's El Diablo! :decool:

[GzuzKryzt]

Hi GzuzKryzt,
I'm a little curious in your signature.
What is it of God that you distrust?

Irrelevant to your claim, Ali.
However, I will answer your question as soon as you answered mine. See below. I have to add that your continued evasive dodging does nothing towards building a credibility on your part. Quite the opposite.


...
You made two contradictory statements in post #15, Ali.

1. "Of course I want the $1m prize, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time."

2. "However I don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more."

I read it several times and it still seems contradicting. Why would you want something which you do not think "is for real"?

No offense, Ali, but the idea that not even an almost starved-to-death wild lion would not "bite" you seems ludicrous. Has someone ever witnessed your "supernatural attribute"? If so, would he be ready to sign an affidavit that he did?



Ali, are you the same Ali which sent KRAMER the "most foul-mouthed tirade ever offered in response to JREF's position regarding his claim"?

[Ali]

You made two contradictory statements in post #15, Ali.

1. "Of course I want the $1m prize, otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time."

2. "However I don't think the prize is for real, so I'm not taking it seriously any more."

I read it several times and it still seems contradicting. Why would you want something which you do not think "is for real"?

Ali, are you the same Ali which sent KRAMER the "most foul-mouthed tirade ever offered in response to JREF's position regarding his claim"?
Hi,
You are questioning one of the simplest aspects of human behaviour:
Human behaviour doesn’t function under Boolean laws: a comment made by anyone has associated with it certainty factors (i.e. probabilities) which must not be ignored.
You must look at the context in a human sense as well as logically.

I'm afraid I'm the same Ali.

[GzuzKryzt]

Hi,
You are questioning one of the simplest aspects of human behaviour:
Human behaviour doesn’t function under Boolean laws: a comment made by anyone has associated with it certainty factors (i.e. probabilities) which must not be ignored.
You must look at the context in a human sense as well as logically.
...


Ali, I have no idea what you are talking about. It does not matter much because your "explanation" is equally irrelevant to your claim or a test protocol.

You do not think the JREF Prize is "for real".
Yet you post in the Challenge subforum and have repeatedly stated a "supernatural attribute" or "power(s)".

Ali, why do you post here since you have no intent to apply properly or negotiate a protocol or even answer simple questions concerning your claim or go after something which you don't think exists? (I am aware that asking another simple question might not reveal much insight into your mind except for what we already saw.)

[Ririon]

Hi,
You are questioning one of the simplest aspects of human behaviour:
Human behaviour doesn’t function under Boolean laws: a comment made by anyone has associated with it certainty factors (i.e. probabilities) which must not be ignored.
You must look at the context in a human sense as well as logically.

I'm afraid I'm the same Ali.
I don't think you are for real, so I'm not taking you seriously any more.

But thanks for reminding me of one of my favorite Bjork songs:

HUMAN BEHAVIOUR

If you ever get close to a human
And human behaviour
Be ready to get confused
There's definitely no logic
To human behaviour
But yet so irristible
There's no map
To human behaviour
They're terribly moody
Then all of a sudden turn happy
But, oh, to get involved in the exchange
Of human emotions is ever so satisfying
There's no map
And a compass
Wouldn't help at all
Human behaviour

[GzuzKryzt]

I don't think you are for real, so I'm not taking you seriously any more.

But thanks for reminding me of one of my favorite Bjork songs:

HUMAN BEHAVIOUR

If you ever get close to a human
And human behaviour
Be ready to get confused
There's definitely no logic
To human behaviour
But yet so irristible
There's no map
To human behaviour
They're terribly moody
Then all of a sudden turn happy
But, oh, to get involved in the exchange
Of human emotions is ever so satisfying
There's no map
And a compass
Wouldn't help at all
Human behaviour

Amazing. I thought of this song, too.



"[...]There's definitely, definitely, definitely no logic.[...]" :)

[Ririon]

Amazing. I thought of this song, too.

"[...]There's definitely, definitely, definitely no logic.[...]" :)
I'm just doing my best to give the lurkers something to surf on. This Ali guy makes messy little unsurfable waves. :cool:

[GzuzKryzt]

I'm just doing my best to give the lurkers something to surf on. This Ali guy makes messy little unsurfable waves. :cool:

"Hihihihihihihiiii WIPEOUT!"

[GzuzKryzt]

One possible test:

With me in open space (e.g. in a park), about 7meters from dog and its owner.
Order the dog to run and bite (preferably a police dog, so we know it will bite).

Test negative: dog succeeds to bite (in which case I'll withdraw my claim).
Test positive: dog fails to bite on numerous occasions. Move onto second stage: 2, then 3 then 4 dogs ordered to attack.

Please let me know if I've left anything unexplained.


Ali, what will you do after the dog is ordered "to run and bite"? Will you wear a body odor repellant? Will you try to engage the dog? Will you wear a hamster ball? Or will you stand perfectly still and not execute any defensive action?

Would it count as a negative if the (small) dog bit your pant leg (and thus not hurt you significantly)?

For the sake of keeping track and transparence, I suggest we all mosey over to the thread dedicated to Ali and continue the discussion here.

[Ali]

Ali, what will you do after the dog is ordered "to run and bite"? Will you wear a body odor repellant? Will you try to engage the dog? Will you wear a hamster ball? Or will you stand perfectly still and not execute any defensive action?

Would it count as a negative if the (small) dog bit your pant leg (and thus not hurt you significantly)?

I can do what I please: this supernatural power is with me for always, at all times.

The dog must cause me physical pain for the test to become negative.

[Geek Goddess]

I can do what I please: this supernatural power is with me for always, at all times.

The dog must cause me physical pain for the test to become negative.


Will it work for any animal, or just dogs?

[GzuzKryzt]

I can do what I please: this supernatural power is with me for always, at all times.

The dog must cause me physical pain for the test to become negative.

The "physical pain" part will most likely disqualify any ethically behaving observer to help design a test. Including me.

Why would you "powers" not be disproved if a dog would bite your pant leg?

Please clarify "I can do what I please: this supernatural power is with me for always, at all times.". What do you actually do?

[rjh01]

A police dog is no good for the test. If Ali just stands there the dog will go up to Ali and bark its head off without actually biting. No superpowers required.

Much better to do the yellow bamboo test.

[Ali]

Why would you "powers" not be disproved if a dog would bite your pant leg?

Please clarify "I can do what I please: this supernatural power is with me for always, at all times.". What do you actually do?
I haven't tried the pant leg: I think it's a good idea.
I'm open to any suggestions.

I don't have to do anything: it's an internal power. For example, you are stronger than any rabbit; in the same way, I'm stronger than any dog.

[Ali]

Will it work for any animal, or just dogs?
It works for lions and dogs.
I don't want to try other animals like snakes, because my power is only valid with complete safety of the animal in mind.

[Calcas]

I don't think you are for real, so I'm not taking you seriously any more.

But thanks for reminding me of one of my favorite Bjork songs:

HUMAN BEHAVIOUR

If you ever get close to a human
And human behaviour
Be ready to get confused
There's definitely no logic
To human behaviour
But yet so irristible
There's no map
To human behaviour
They're terribly moody
Then all of a sudden turn happy
But, oh, to get involved in the exchange
Of human emotions is ever so satisfying
There's no map
And a compass
Wouldn't help at all
Human behaviour
I think the song "Tooti Fruiti" is more apropos...

[Paul2]

I think the song "Tooti Fruiti" is more apropos...Tutti frutti, oh rutti,
Tutti frutti, oh rutti, Ooooh,
Tutti frutti, oh rutti,
Tutti frutti, oh rutti,
Tutti frutti, oh rutti,
Wop bop a loo bop a lop bam boom!

[GzuzKryzt]

I haven't tried the pant leg: I think it's a good idea.
I'm open to any suggestions.

I don't have to do anything: it's an internal power. For example, you are stronger than any rabbit; in the same way, I'm stronger than any dog.

Well, us being "stronger" than any rabbit has most likely to do with physical size and a resulting - very unparanormal - advantage in strength.

In the same way, you are unparanormally stronger than any dog, Ali. At least most dogs.

You also said "it works for lions". How do you know?

[TheBoyPaj]

I can do what I please: this supernatural power is with me for always, at all times.

The dog must cause me physical pain for the test to become negative.

How will we know if it causes physical pain? I could probably keep quiet through a bit of gnawing for a million dollars.

[Dumb All Over]

How will we know if it causes physical pain? I could probably keep quiet through a bit of gnawing for a million dollars.

My thoughts exactly. Isn't it conceivable that pain might be experienced, yet not verbally acknowledged?

[Cuddles]

You also said "it works for lions". How do you know?

Presumably because he's never been bitten by one. Come to think of it, neither have I. Can I have $1 million please?

[GzuzKryzt]

Presumably because he's never been bitten by one. Come to think of it, neither have I. Can I have $1 million please?

Would you like fries with that?

[Ali]

Dear friends,
Sour grapes or not, my claim stands.
Hahahahahahaha......

[Ririon]

Dear friends,
Sour grapes or not, my claim stands.
Hahahahahahaha......
Fixed it for you. :)

[Ali]

Cheers mate.

[Ali]

Cheers mate.

[GzuzKryzt]

Dear friends,
Sour grapes or not, my claim stands.
Hahahahahahaha......

Dear Ali,
my claim stands: You did not prove anything yet.

[Ali]

Dear Ali,
my claim stands: You did not prove anything yet.

I already know my powers:
its for you to prove to yourselves my supernatural abilities.

[case sensitive]

I already know my powers:
its for you to prove to yourselves my supernatural abilities.

No we don't care... If you want us to believe then it is up to you.

[GzuzKryzt]

I already know my powers:
its for you to prove to yourselves my supernatural abilities.

Concerning the JREF Challenge, your statement could not be more wrong. It does not matter what you claim to know, it matters what you prove.

[Ali]

Concerning the JREF Challenge, your statement could not be more wrong. It does not matter what you claim to know, it matters what you prove.

Surely once you know and seen, then it's proved: as they say, seeing is believing.
If you refuse to see what you see, then you're displaying plain ignorance.

[GzuzKryzt]

Surely once you know and seen, then it's proved: as they say, seeing is believing.
If you refuse to see what you see, then you're displaying plain ignorance.

I see that you make a claim and I see you do not offer proof.
I do not at all refuse to see that there is nothing paranormal to see.

[Ririon]

Surely once you know and seen, then it's proved: as they say, seeing is believing.
If you refuse to see what you see, then you're displaying plain ignorance.
Feel free to show us, then... Or just talk some more if that suits you better... Just don't try it with lions the first time, will you?

[Ali]

Lets hypothesize (for you that is), and say that my claim is true.
Now consider other animals: will it be true for all of them or some of them or.....?
I look forward to your views.

[case sensitive]

Lets hypothesize (for you that is), and say that my claim is true.
Now consider other animals: will it be true for all of them or some of them or.....?
I look forward to your views.

Animals don't attack people very often. Well mosquitos does I guess. Do bugs and mosquitos act like the dogs that tried to attack you?

[Ririon]

Lets hypothesize (for you that is), and say that my claim is true.
Now consider other animals: will it be true for all of them or some of them or.....?
I look forward to your views.
OK, more talk, it is...

To answer your question: If your claim is true, then it will be true for one and only one animal except for the dog and the lion. That animal is the majestic and generally cool animal, the giraffe. It will, however, not work against kittens.

[GzuzKryzt]

Lets hypothesize (for you that is), and say that my claim is true.
Now consider other animals: will it be true for all of them or some of them or.....?
I look forward to your views.

Let's size the hype: All talk and no proof.

Game's over, Ali.

[rjh01]

This is so funny. His claim is not even paranormal. There are ways and means of preventing any cat or a dog from attacking you. In Roman times they even had unarmed men fight lions and win. You just need to know what you are doing.

But Ali is not even trying to win the $1m prize. There is no evidence that he has applied in the last 12 months.

[Ali]

Do bugs and mosquitos act like the dogs that tried to attack you?

Good question:
mosquitos may I suppose, unless endangering my life;
but bees wont unless I harm them willingly or accidentally.
(Haven't tried hornets).

[jmontecillo01]

A missionary was cornered by lions. In his desperation, he shouted "Lord make these lions beleive in you and fear you". Suddenly, there was thunder and lightning. To his amazement, the lions kneeled down and prayed. "We thank you lord for this food we are about to eat".

----------------------
A man was placed in a room with two doors. He was told that the doors lead to freedom. The door on his left is guarded by a dog that hasn't been fed for couple of days while the door on his right has lions that hasn't been fed for a couple of years,......

--------------------

Sorry, I just can't help it. :)

[Silly Green Monkey]

Long-dead lions? If there's any meat left on them, feed them to the dog and examine the doors at your leisure!

[Ali]

I've come to the conclusion that everyone is running from God and from his servants.
Let me remind you, my friends: there is nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.............

[GzuzKryzt]

Your conclusions do not really concern me, Ali.

Your attention begging is becoming pathetic. You have nothing to offer besides talk without substance.

Yawnity-yawn.

[Ali]

Your conclusions do not really concern me, Ali.

Your attention begging is becoming pathetic. You have nothing to offer besides talk without substance.

Yawnity-yawn.



That's exactly what I mean: you're running from God and from his servants.

[chillzero]

I've come to the conclusion that everyone is running from God and from his servants.
Let me remind you, my friends: there is nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.............

How is this in any way relevant to your claim?

[GzuzKryzt]

That's exactly what I mean: you're running from God and from his servants.

How is this in any way relevant to your claim?



(Also: God's a she.)

[Ali]

I stand, so my claim stands, and will stand for all time.

[GzuzKryzt]

I stand, so my claim stands, and will stand for all time.

Your proof lacks, so your claim stands like wetty spaghetti; will it lack for all time? (Your bi-trimestrial appearance is much appreciated.)

[Ali]

How can mere mortals refute God's deeds?
You must not forget who you are, before you decide to assume to be in the same league as of God's people.

[GzuzKryzt]

How can mere mortals refute God's deeds?
You must not forget who you are, before you decide to assume to be in the same league as of God's people.

How is this, again, in any way relevant to your claim or its proof?

[Reno]

Maizie is still waiting to bite you on the ass. All you need do is knock my door.

[Ali]

Maizie is still waiting to bite you on the ass. All you need do is knock my door.

Reno, such a big boast from such a small dog?

[GzuzKryzt]

Reno, such a big boast from such a small dog?

Ali, such a big proof fur such a small claim?

[baron]

Ali - you are mad.

Everyone else - you are debating with a mad person. Too much of this and you will go mad too.

And therein lies the logical conclusion to this utterly pointless thread.

[GzuzKryzt]

Ali - you are mad.

Everyone else - you are debating with a mad person. Too much of this and you will go mad too.

And therein lies the logical conclusion to this utterly pointless thread.

This point has a point: It revealed that you have a medical degree and make wild assumptions. That's two points, baron.

[The Pig]

Ali, is this you?

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1986260681870742580&q=police+dog

[AgingYoung]

That puppy sure did look like it was having a good time.

Gene

[rjh01]

I think that was faked. Part of the way though the scene changes. Nothing in the first part looks anything like the second part.

To see what real police dog training is like go to Awesome Police Dog Training (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8676698791720533248&q=police+dog) There is a link from the previous link. Warning - may not be safe for work. Shows cruelty to dogs. And I am not referring to the criminals.

[personable]

Didn't see any cruelty to dogs in that video whatsoever. Were you taking the bleeding heart animal rights activist's word for it on the comments page? Everything is animal cruelty as far as they're concerned.

[chran]

I've come to the conclusion that everyone is running from God and from his servants.
Let me remind you, my friends: there is nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.............

There is no god, and even if there were, you would not be his servant.

So there. Put up or shut up.

[CynicalSkeptic]

In an attempt to get this thread back on topic...

Is there any reason why Ali couldn't wear a training suit and have trained dogs attack him? I can't see why there would be a safety concern.

[GzuzKryzt]

In an attempt to get this thread back on topic...

Is there any reason why Ali couldn't wear a training suit and have trained dogs attack him? I can't see why there would be a safety concern.

At this point I consider it more likely that Sylvia Browne applies than us seeing coherent statements from Ali.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Surely once you know and seen, then it's proved: as they say, seeing is believing.
If you refuse to see what you see, then you're displaying plain ignorance.

So, Ali, when you watch a magician perform, for example, a vanishing bird illusion, do you believe the bird vanishes? Does doubting that the bird has vanished display ignorance?

(BTW, I assume you're using "ignorance" in it's more colloquial meaning--meaning "intractably stubborn" or "bloody-minded" or something like that as opposed to its primary meaning "lacking knowledge" or "not knowing".)

You've made an outlandish claim, and it's YOUR onus to come up with a protocol to test it and prove it. Unless or until you do so, your claim is unproven and worthless.

By the way, the claim that "there is no million dollars" is easily testable. Try to find a lawyer to take your case to court. If your claim were true, you could get a lawyer to take the case on spec (no up front fees, but he'll get 1/3 of the settlement or judgment).

[JoeTheJuggler]

In an attempt to get this thread back on topic...

Is there any reason why Ali couldn't wear a training suit and have trained dogs attack him? I can't see why there would be a safety concern.

As pointed out, it would give Ali a pretty reasonable "out"--the dogs are trained to attack that kind of suit (with or without a person inside).

So WHEN the dog(s) bite him in the suit, it wouldn't really disprove his claim.

If we could find dogs trained to attack that weren't trained with a suit, maybe? Or a safe but different kind of suit (chain mail under the clothes or something).

I don't think JREF would accept anything that left any chance of someone hurting himself. It would also be irresponsible to do so--sort of like encouraging a delusional person to jump off a building because he thinks he can fly.

Ali, seriously, read the FAQ and try hard to open your mind to the chance that you might be in need of some kind of medical help. Honest--I'm not trying to be mean, but there's not a delicate way of putting it. You seem genuinely to believe your claim--please don't do anything that might result in your getting hurt or worse.

[CynicalSkeptic]

As pointed out, it would give Ali a pretty reasonable "out"--the dogs are trained to attack that kind of suit (with or without a person inside).

Ahh, I missed that comment. Hmm, so his powers are not enough to overcome the dog's attraction to the suit?

[Ali]

JoeTheJuggler,
I understand the skepticism and your unrealistic concern.
You must understand that this is a supernatural attribute: you are not speaking to some Tom, Dick or Harry.

[rjh01]

Ali, welcome back. How is your application going? Sent anything to Jeff or heard anything from Jeff recently?

[GzuzKryzt]

JoeTheJuggler,
I understand the skepticism and your unrealistic concern.
You must understand that this is a supernatural attribute: you are not speaking to some Tom, Dick or Harry.

Ali, so far you simply talk: You do not apply, you do not even propose a protocol. You offer nothing substantial. Nothing.

Your blahblah does not get you anywhere, except into the ranks of futility. When can we expect your first rant, finally?

Come on, you gotta give us something; since you haven't any paranormal ability, you gotta at least let us have it.

You have nothing to offer, Ali.

Prove me wrong.

[Ali]

What I offer is written in plain English on my claim.

[rjh01]

Great. What is the status of your claim? Have you posted it? Or is it sitting in your imagination?

[GzuzKryzt]

What I offer is written in plain English on my claim.

We have been at this point before, Ali. It has been explained to you several times what you'll need to do to get to the next stage. So far, you refused.

You have nothing paranormal to offer.

[Ali]

We have been at this point before, Ali. It has been explained to you several times what you'll need to do to get to the next stage. So far, you refused.

You have nothing paranormal to offer.
I repeat: What I offer is written in plain English on my claim.
If you are stuck at this point, then you better start exercising those grey cells.

[GzuzKryzt]

I repeat: What I offer is written in plain English on my claim.
If you are stuck at this point, then you better start exercising those grey cells.

You offer words. You do not offer proof.

Words mean nothing.

[rjh01]

The only thing to add to GzuzKryzt post is 'What claim?'

Do not bother offering more words, your words are garbage.

[Ali]

My claim stands:
If you don't like it lump it.

[GzuzKryzt]

My claim stands:
If you don't like it lump it.

Your claim is very vague. We have asked you several times to clarify your claim which you refused to do.

Only proof matters. Do you understand why we demand proof, Ali?

[Ali]

Your claim is very vague. We have asked you several times to clarify your claim which you refused to do.

Only proof matters. Do you understand why we demand proof, Ali?

If you cannot read plain English, then I'm afraid you'll stay in the dark.

[GzuzKryzt]

If you cannot read plain English, then I'm afraid you'll stay in the dark.

If you cannot provide plain proof, then I'm afraid you'll stay in the dark. Along and alone with your delusions - or your big black chain.

[Ali]

If you cannot provide plain proof, then I'm afraid you'll stay in the dark. Along and alone with your delusions - or your big black chain.

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by big black chain?

[GzuzKryzt]

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by big black chain?

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "No dog will ever bite me" and how do you want to prove it?

[GzuzKryzt]

"Prove", or "Proof" or "Proving" Ali, means demonstrating it to living people.

[GzuzKryzt]

"Prove", or "Proof" or "Proving" Ali, means demonstrating it to living people.

Do you understand what I mean, Ali?

[robinson]

"Yanking his chain" is a quaint term for irritating somebody. Like pulling on a dogs chain to piss them off.

[Ali]

"Prove", or "Proof" or "Proving" Ali, means demonstrating it to living people.

If people refuse the obvious, then it's a full stop.

[Ali]

Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true. - Francis Bacon
GzuzKryzt, if you close your eyes you'll not see.

[Gravy]

Ali, your haberdasher called. Your suit is ready. (http://www.projectgrizzly.net/)

[Ali]

Thanks Gravy, but no thanks.

[Ali]

This is so funny. His claim is not even paranormal. There are ways and means of preventing any cat or a dog from attacking you. In Roman times they even had unarmed men fight lions and win. You just need to know what you are doing.


rjh01,
I'm very interested to hear how an unarmed man can beat lions.

[GzuzKryzt]

rjh01,
I'm very interested to hear how an unarmed man can beat lions.

Irrelevant to the proof of your claim, Ali.

You got nothing, right? Just a little attention begging? Escape from a lonely room? Compensation for shortcomings and insufficiencies?

[Ali]

Irrelevant to the proof of your claim, Ali.

You got nothing, right? Just a little attention begging? Escape from a lonely room? Compensation for shortcomings and insufficiencies?

rjh01,
I'm very interested to hear how an unarmed man can beat lions.

On the contrary my dear GzuzKryzt:
If rjh01 comes up with a viable answer then it means an end to my claim; but I'm afraid that's highly unlikely.

[GzuzKryzt]

You still misunderstand the JREF Challenge, Ali: You make a claim and you provide the proof.

So far, you have not accomplished the seemingly simple task.

[Gravy]

rjh01,
I'm very interested to hear how an unarmed man can beat lions.Follow these instructions:

Eenie, meenie, miney, moe
Catch a tiger by the toe
If he hollers, let him go
Eenie, meenie, miney, moe

Except that if the beast hollers, do not let go!

[Ali]

rjh01,
I'm very interested to hear how an unarmed man can beat lions.

Follow these instructions:

Eenie, meenie, miney, moe
Catch a tiger by the toe
If he hollers, let him go
Eenie, meenie, miney, moe

Except that if the beast hollers, do not let go!

I thought so: deserves me right for thinking otherwise.

[robinson]

Oh you are being silly. There is clear proof an unarmed man can survive lions. Daniel 6:19-22. Its in the Bible, so it must be true!

[Ali]

Oh you are being silly. There is clear proof an unarmed man can survive lions. Daniel 6:19-22. Its in the Bible, so it must be true!

Don't believe anything you read: discard the garbage but retain the truth.
It's a matter of simple logic.

[robinson]

:hb: :i:

[GzuzKryzt]

Don't believe anything you read: discard the garbage but retain the truth.
It's a matter of simple logic.

Also irrelevant to your claim, Ali. (And blasphemy, too, according to the scriptures.)

Ali, why do your post here? Do you love the friction?

[Little 10 Toes]

Don't believe anything you read: discard the garbage but retain the truth.
It's a matter of simple logic.

[quote from Ali's application]
No DOG, whatever its size, no matter how wild or how hungry, will bite me.

"Where's the truth?" -- Paraphrased from Clara Peller (look her up)

[CynicalSkeptic]

Is there any reason why Ali couldn't wear a training suit and have trained dogs attack him? I can't see why there would be a safety concern.As pointed out, it would give Ali a pretty reasonable "out"--the dogs are trained to attack that kind of suit (with or without a person inside).

Ali, is this true? Do your powers not work when wearing a training/protection suit? I certainly understand Randi's concern for safety just in case something goes wrong, but a training suit should alleviate those concerns. Is this a test you'd be willing to perform?

[petre]

If people refuse the obvious, then it's a full stop.

I'll take this to mean, "I will never provide more evidence of my claim than the words I have already written".

If you feel this meaning is not accurate, feel free to elaborate in detail on what additional steps you will be taking to prove your claim.

[Ali]

[quote from Ali's application]
No DOG, whatever its size, no matter how wild or how hungry, will bite me.

"Where's the truth?" -- Paraphrased from Clara Peller (look her up)

When a person becomes wise he's able to see what others cannot:
Logic takes on an advanced meaning.

[GzuzKryzt]

When a person becomes wise he's able to see what others cannot:
Logic takes on an advanced meaning.

Prove it, Ali.

[Ali]

Prove it, Ali.
If a person is blind, will he see?
Can a person with downs syndrome understand say Newton’s laws?
The transition has to come from within self; as they say:
What is impossible for man is possible with God.

[GzuzKryzt]

If a person is blind, will he see?
Can a person with downs syndrome understand say Newton’s laws?
The transition has to come from within self; as they say:
What is impossible for man is possible with God.

Irrelevant, Ali.

Prove what you claim.

[Ali]

Dear GzuzKryzt,
Don't you want to use your brain rather than your feelings?
Haven't you understood any of my words?

[GzuzKryzt]

Dear GzuzKryzt,
Don't you want to use your brain rather than your feelings?
Haven't you understood any of my words?

Words from you do not mean anything in this context. Since you've made a claim, only proof counts. You have had more than two years to come up with something more than words. So far, you failed.

You continue to dodge and provide a good example for why the JREF decided to go a different way with their Challenge.

[Ali]

I repeat, since you refuse to use your brain:
Dear GzuzKryzt,
Don't you want to use your brain rather than your feelings?
Haven't you understood any of my words?

[GzuzKryzt]

I repeat, since you refuse to use your brain:
Dear GzuzKryzt,
Don't you want to use your brain rather than your feelings?
Haven't you understood any of my words?

Still dodging, Ali.

You got nothing, right? Prove us wrong.

[Ali]

Still refusing to use your brain? I reiterate:
Dear GzuzKryzt,
Don't you want to use your brain rather than your feelings?
Haven't you understood any of my words?

[GzuzKryzt]

Still refusing to use your brain? I reiterate:
Dear GzuzKryzt,
Don't you want to use your brain rather than your feelings?
Haven't you understood any of my words?

Ali, please provide proof for your claim.

[Little 10 Toes]

Hi,
I'm Ali; my claim is true. Unfortunately I cannot demonstrate my powers for the time being.

So your claim is true, but you can't demonstrate your powers for the time being.

You can't have "powers" but yet can't demonstrate them.

And why haven't you provided *any* proof. Just because I say I'm 7ft tall, doesn't mean I am.

[Ali]

I repeat, since you refuse to use your brain:
Dear GzuzKryzt,
Don't you want to use your brain rather than your feelings?
Haven't you understood any of my words?

[TheBoyPaj]

Ooh, ooh. Is just repeating stuff now an accepted debating technique? Cool.


As you know some people do anything to get rich: unfortunately I've overstepped my limit and in the process disgraced only myself.

I now apologise once more, and make a quick exit.

[GzuzKryzt]

Dear GzuzKryzt,
Don't you want to use your brain rather than your feelings?
Haven't you understood any of my words?

Irrelevant to claim at this point, Ali. Why do you post here and still give no proof for your claim?

[CynicalSkeptic]

I'll repeat my question since Ali is ignoring it:

Ali, is this true? Do your powers not work when wearing a training/protection suit? I certainly understand Randi's concern for safety just in case something goes wrong, but a dog training suit should alleviate those concerns. Is this a test you'd be willing to perform?

[Ali]

Ali, is this true? Do your powers not work when wearing a training/protection suit? I certainly understand Randi's concern for safety just in case something goes wrong, but a dog training suit should alleviate those concerns. Is this a test you'd be willing to perform?

My powers work when wearing a training/protection suit.
I'm willing and happy to undergo this test.

[GzuzKryzt]

My powers work when wearing a training/protection suit.
I'm willing and happy to undergo this test.

Your stalling, dodging and evading shows this is very likely not true. Also, you have said: "Unfortunately I cannot demonstrate my powers for the time being."

Which is it now, Ali: Will you prove your claim by demonstrating your alleged powers or will you not prove your claim?

May I remind you, we have traveled this path before.
It was explained to you that the JREF will not accept claims which might result in harm to the applicant. You were then presented with other options to prove your claim - none of which you chose to pursue.

You continued with statements irrelevant to your claim or to the proof thereof. And here we are again, at the same point as roughly four to five months ago.

Please permit this very simple question: Is the reason for you to post here, Ali, to prove your claim?

[CynicalSkeptic]

My powers work when wearing a training/protection suit.
I'm willing and happy to undergo this test.

Great! Submit a claim with that as part of the protocol. I really can't imagine Randi being too concerned about injury if you can find a Police Department or Trainer with the proper equipment.

[Ali]

Great! Submit a claim with that as part of the protocol. I really can't imagine Randi being too concerned about injury if you can find a Police Department or Trainer with the proper equipment.

My dear friend,
The whole problem lies in finding a Police Department or Trainer with the proper equipment.

[GzuzKryzt]

My dear friend,
The whole problem lies in finding a Police Department or Trainer with the proper equipment.

Have you tried to? Which or where? What were the responses you got?

[Ali]

The Police Department will not take it seriously.
If someone can provide me with some sort of letter that the Police can accept for the test to proceed I would be grateful.

[GzuzKryzt]

The Police Department will not take it seriously.
If someone can provide me with some sort of letter that the Police can accept for the test to proceed I would be grateful.

Which police department did you approach? What did you tell them?

[Ali]

Which police department did you approach? What did you tell them?

I haven't approached any, because they won't take it seriously:
You tell me what you would say.

[CynicalSkeptic]

Say that you want to do an experiment and that you'll pay for any time and equipment necessary.

[Ali]

They'll laugh and chuck me out: I need some solid reason.

[Psiload]

They'll laugh and chuck me out: I need some solid reason. Story of your life, huh, Ali?

[GzuzKryzt]

I haven't approached any, because they won't take it seriously:
You tell me what you would say.

What makes you think they won't take it seriously?

If I were to claim what you did, I'd go by the same description you've made in your claim letter, here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=30405

If I were to claim what you did, I'd change the "lions" to "dogs", make the letter a bit more formal and would ask for advice on how to realise the proof of my ability. Perhaps through a private, i.e.: non-police dog trainer.

But let me ask again: What makes you think the police - I suppose in your town - won't take it seriously?

[CynicalSkeptic]

Pay for their time. I'm sure you can find a professional handler somewhere near you who wouldn't mind putting some extra cash in his pocket. You may even be able to recoup your costs with a video (or at least get some notariety on YouTube)...

I'm sure the local police force wherever Ali Bongo lives in the UK wouldn't mind helping out, for charity. And I, too, would pay good money for a video of this.

[Little 10 Toes]

My dear friend,
The whole problem lies in finding a Police Department or Trainer with the proper equipment.

The Police Department will not take it seriously.
If someone can provide me with some sort of letter that the Police can accept for the test to proceed I would be grateful.

I haven't approached any, because they won't take it seriously:
You tell me what you would say.

So you either have approached the police or a trainer and they don't have the equipment, or you haven't approached anyone. Which is it?

[rjh01]

This suggests he has never even tested himself. This is nothing but Ali's fantasy. He has as much chance of being bitten by a dog as anyone else. Well almost. Would he have any idea what to do if a dog did attack him?

Worse, you all talk about Ali's claim. However the last time he applied he won an award for his lack of politesse and so the claim was rejected.

In fact if Ali ever does put in for the $1 million challenge I might put in for it myself and insist on being tested first. So there is no way that Ali can win the $1 million. I think this thread needs to be moved.

[GzuzKryzt]

How do you suggest we behave towards Ali and his claim, rjh01?

[rjh01]

Option 1.
Ignoring him. This forum is for the $1 million challenge only. He has no application outstanding.

Option 2.
Move the thread to another forum. By the way Ali is behaving, the humor forum might be the one for it to go. Otherwise General Skepticism and The Paranormal.

Option 3.
Carry on as before. I must admit after a lot of work Dargo (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=12353) has been exposed for what he is. Cannot see a lot of difference between the pair of them.

[GzuzKryzt]

For option #2, you will most likely have to PM a mod, rjh01.

However, I think Ali's behaviour exemplifies a common approach of many would-be and wanna-be applicants; and people who join this forum and post their claims.

[robinson]

This suggests he has never even tested himself. This is nothing but Ali's fantasy. He has as much chance of being bitten by a dog as anyone else. Well almost. Would he have any idea what to do if a dog did attack him?

Do you have any evidence? Or are you making stuff up?


Worse, you all talk about Ali's claim. However the last time he applied he won an award for his lack of politesse and so the claim was rejected.


Thats not what happened. You can read the thread for yourself and see. Well, not really, because his mail was not published, just anecdotal evidence was posted.

In fact if Ali ever does put in for the $1 million challenge I might put in for it myself and insist on being tested first. So there is no way that Ali can win the $1 million. I think this thread needs to be moved.

What would be your test protocol? Thinking something is not the same as evidence. If you want somebody to do what you want, you need to provide evidence. What evidence is there for this thread to be moved? It is about the MDC, so where would you want it moved?

[CynicalSkeptic]

Worse, you all talk about Ali's claim. However the last time he applied he won an award for his lack of politesse and so the claim was rejected.

Thats not what happened. You can read the thread for yourself and see. Well, not really, because his mail was not published, just anecdotal evidence was posted.

Yes it is. You need to read post #2 in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=30405) which is linked to in the first post of the thread we're reading now.

Well, this applicant has just won the prize for the most foul-mouthed tirade ever offered in response to JREF's position regarding his claim.
...
We blocked his email address. His file has been closed.

[robinson]

Yes it is. You need to read post #2 in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=30405) which is linked to in the first post of the thread we're reading now.

I read the thread. Thats what I based my statement on it. We don't know what happened, we just have anecdotal evidence that it was "the most foul-mouthed tirade", and there is no evidence of any prize awarded.

I don't even believe there IS a prize.

Furthermore, the comment that "True to the specifics of his claim, we instructed this applicant to contact us the moment he had every dog on earth together in one place and ready for testing. I told him that we were 'good to go'.", did not deal with his claim, which was "No DOG", not every dog on earth.

:wackylaugh:

[CynicalSkeptic]

We don't know what happened, we just have anecdotal evidence that it was "the most foul-mouthed tirade", and there is no evidence of any prize awarded.

Kramer's word is anecdotal evidence?

I don't even believe there IS a prize.
I don't think that was meant literally.

Furthermore, the comment that "True to the specifics of his claim, we instructed this applicant to contact us the moment he had every dog on earth together in one place and ready for testing. I told him that we were 'good to go'.", did not deal with his claim, which was "No DOG", not every dog on earth.

Hmm, to prove that "no dog" would attack him, he'd have to demonstrate that "every dog would not" attack him would he not?

[robinson]

No, it would be like saying "No 9mm bullet fired at me will hurt me". While this is a wild claim, (unless you are wearing a really good vest), it would be dumb to insist you have to get every 9mm bullet in the world and fire it to prove the claim. Just one bullet would do the trick, if the claim is not valid. If that bullet doesn't do it, another few should prove beyond all doubt that something weird is going on.

See? Its not hard to figure stuff out.

[rjh01]

There are various ways of testing a paranormal claim. Sending back a provocative e-mail back is one way. And the claim was proved false very quickly.

[robinson]

No, nothing has been proved. Why do you think e-mail is the same as proof?

[Reno]

No, it would be like saying "No 9mm bullet fired at me will hurt me". While this is a wild claim, (unless you are wearing a really good vest), it would be dumb to insist you have to get every 9mm bullet in the world and fire it to prove the claim. Just one bullet would do the trick, if the claim is not valid. If that bullet doesn't do it, another few should prove beyond all doubt that something weird is going on.

See? Its not hard to figure stuff out.

While I heartily agree with the KISS approach to testing claims, it's apparant because of the history of this 'claimant' on this board, that he won't ever be tested by even ONE dog. All the discussion in the world ain't gonna change that.

[robinson]

I think its important to remember, that in the original claim, it was lions that wouldn't attack. Dogs were used because lions would be too hard to arrange a test for.

[Reno]

Lions, tigers, bears. Whatever.

[Cuddles]

No, it would be like saying "No 9mm bullet fired at me will hurt me". While this is a wild claim, (unless you are wearing a really good vest), it would be dumb to insist you have to get every 9mm bullet in the world and fire it to prove the claim. Just one bullet would do the trick, if the claim is not valid. If that bullet doesn't do it, another few should prove beyond all doubt that something weird is going on.

See? Its not hard to figure stuff out.

It's not hard, but somehow you don't seem able to manage. The claim was that no dog will bite him. If one dog does, then he fails. If one dog doesn't, it means nothing because no other dog has been tested. The only way to prove that no dog will bite him is to get give every dog the chance and show that none of them will. Of course, given the birth rate of dogs it seems unlikely to be possible to test this since there will be new dogs born faster than we could get them in a room with him. Of course, since we all know this test will never happen, and we also know exactly what would happen if it did, this is not really a problem.

[robinson]

Actually, the claim was "No lion, whatever its size, no matter how wild or how hungry, will bite me."

I know it might be hard to see what he is getting at with such a claim. And while we may all agree it is a wild claim, the concept as well as the attempts to form a protocol for such a test, are indeed valid questions.

If the claim is made, "This new bullet proof vest will stop all 9mm rounds. Armour piercing, or any other type, fired from any range. No 9mm bullet will go through this vest".

It would be dumb to insist that you gather every 9mm weapon in the world and fire it at the vest, before the claim could be verified. These sorts of things happen all the time. A number of rounds from a number of different guns, with all types of ammo, is enough to prove the case. So insisting you gather every gun on earth and use it, would be dumb. The world doesn't work that way.

[Cuddles]

If the claim is made, "This new bullet proof vest will stop all 9mm rounds. Armour piercing, or any other type, fired from any range. No 9mm bullet will go through this vest".

It would be dumb to insist that you gather every 9mm weapon in the world and fire it at the vest, before the claim could be verified. These sorts of things happen all the time. A number of rounds from a number of different guns, with all types of ammo, is enough to prove the case. So insisting you gather every gun on earth and use it, would be dumb. The world doesn't work that way.

I'm willing to bet that no bulletproof vest has ever made a claim like this, they will always say something like "In testing, no 9mm bullets penetrated. You have a 99.9% chance of not being killed by a 9mm bullet". This is the important difference. For them to legally claim that no 9mm will ever penetrate a vest, they would need use every single bullet in the world. For them to claim that nothing ever penetrated during testing and they are almost certain requires a lot less. Ali's claim is not that it's probable that no dog will bite him, it is that he is 100% certain that there is not a single dog in the entire world that is capable of biting him. The JREF simply tests what an applicant claims, and since he claims that no dog in the world will bite him, the JREF would be well within its rights to want to test every single dog in the world.

Also note that although his first claim was about lions, when queried about this he sent in another application involving dogs. We are not trying to get him to do anything that he has not claimed himself.

[CynicalSkeptic]

It's not hard, but somehow you don't seem able to manage. The claim was that no dog will bite him. If one dog does, then he fails. If one dog doesn't, it means nothing because no other dog has been tested.

Exactly, he needs to re-state his claim so it is testable. Claim that 10 trained attack dogs will not bite him while wearing a protection suit. That should satisfy Randi.

[robinson]

I think this video should be enough proof.

http://www.filecabi.net/video/perdogny.html

:D

[rjh01]

I think this video should be enough proof.

http://www.filecabi.net/video/perdogny.html

:D

This is the same video that was put here earlier.

As for the difference between 9mm and dogs, there is not much difference between 9mm bullets of a certain type. There is a lot of difference between different dogs. Is Ali talking about
a) Trained police dogs
b) Trained guard dogs
c) Trained attack dogs
d) Your ordinary pet when Ali enters the dog's property.
e) A mistreated animal.

The claim is not paranormal anyway. Most dogs will not bite if you just stand still and do not run away.

Nor has Ali have an outstanding claim with JREF.

[robinson]

I figured someone must have linked that video, but figgered new readers wouldn't dig back that far, (I didn't), and it is funny.

There is a fair difference in 9mm rounds and weapons. Bullet proof Vest makers test with them all.

[Ali]

I've given up trying to provide proof for Mr. Randi:
If he wants proof let him come to me.

[GzuzKryzt]

I've given up trying to provide proof for Mr. Randi:
If he wants proof let him come to me.

Wrong, Ali. Your efforts of "trying to provide proof for Mr. Randi" do not deserve to be called efforts. As for anyone reading this thread to see.

Mr. Randi did come to you via his worldwide issued Challenge. You failed in taking the first step. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=30405

However, I have little doubt that you will go on claiming your alleged powers.

[CynicalSkeptic]

I've given up trying to provide proof for Mr. Randi:
If he wants proof let him come to me.

Yeah, I understand. US$1million isn't worth following the procedures, and coming up with a protocol that will work.

[rjh01]

A public service announcement. Woman beats lion with branch to save husband. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1834678.htm)

This is what I have been trying to say for ages.

[Ali]

A public service announcement. Woman beats lion with branch to save husband. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1834678.htm)

This is what I have been trying to say for ages.
Hi rjh01,
A puma is smaller than a lion;
What if there were two or three lions?

[GzuzKryzt]

Hi rjh01,
A puma is smaller than a lion;
What if there were two or three lions?

What if you would try to prove your claim, Ali?

[Jackalgirl]

Hello, everyone,

If I'm mistaken, Ali has already said that he is willing to go ahead with a proposed proto-protocol (I say "proto-" because the specifics haven't been worked out). The protocol is to have a trained attack dog be ordered to attack him while he's using a dog-training suit. He's agreed to this.

The problem at this point is that Ali has not approached anyone with the resources he needs regarding this, because he believes that he will be laughed at and rejected out-of-hand.

So here's what I recommend: Ali, get in touch with a skeptic's group in England. CSICOP has a list of skeptical organizations here (http://www.csicop.org/resources/organizations.html). Tell them about your ability, in as bare, no-explanations English as possible (e.g., "I can prevent a trained attack dog, specifically ordered to bite me, from biting me."). Ask them to act as intermediaries in helping you to find attack-dog trainers who would be willing to help you with your test. Make sure that you let them know that you will pay all associated costs.

I actually think that this will be a lot easier than you think: attack-dog trainers have a lot of time and energy and technique invested in their animals. If you were able to demonstrate an ability, regardless of its origin, that invalidated all of that training, I think they would be /intensely/ interested in it.

A word of advice: since you're dealing with skeptics, I would not mention the source of your powers or try to explain it in any way other than "I have the ability to do x." If anyone insists, and won't accept "I'll explain it later, just let me demonstrate it first", find another skeptic. Again, I think the dog trainers won't really care /how/ you do it until you actually /do/ it, and in that case might be willing to offer you some good money to teach them how to do it.

[rjh01]

I have been told that trained dogs will not bite unless the person runs away. If you just stand still the dog will just bark.

No paranormal ability required.

I have also stopped untrained dogs from attacking me. Twice by hitting them on the nose (once I was on my bike) and once by barking back and advancing at it.

[Jackalgirl]

I have been told that trained dogs will not bite unless the person runs away. If you just stand still the dog will just bark.

I imagine, then, that that would be one of the questions that would need to be asked of the dog-trainer, or dog-trainers, approached for this: "will your dog bite a stationary, non-resisting subject?" I seem to recall videos (though I can't cite them) in which a dog was told to "sic" and ran up and bit the arm of someone in one of those dog-trainer suits. The "bitee" wasn't running or anything. But again, I can't cite it, so it's an important question, and I thank you for bringing it up.

I have also stopped untrained dogs from attacking me. Twice by hitting them on the nose (once I was on my bike) and once by barking back and advancing at it.

My understanding of Ali's power, from everything I've read, is that he doesn't engage in anything that you or I would refer to as "self-defense". The dog just simply won't bite him. But it would be a good idea for Ali to clarify this, and to build some controls into his test, such as, "I won't move or make a noise," to prevent him from bopping the dogs on the nose or "the dog will commence its attack from behind me," to rule out any direct, mano-a-cano body language, eye contact, etc.

Good points, though. That's the fun part of coming up with a protocol: trying to control for the explainable stuff. But the important thing is to get Ali in touch with some folks in his area who will help him get access to the dogs (and the information about when the dog will and won't attack).

[GzuzKryzt]

...
My understanding of Ali's power, from everything I've read, is that he doesn't engage in anything that you or I would refer to as "self-defense". The dog just simply won't bite him. But it would be a good idea for Ali to clarify this, and to build some controls into his test, such as, "I won't move or make a noise," to prevent him from bopping the dogs on the nose or "the dog will commence its attack from behind me," to rule out any direct, mano-a-cano body language, eye contact, etc.


He has had more than two years to come with something more than he actually did come up: Preaching, derailing and redundance.

Probability indicates we won't see much change. If USD 1,000,000 won't entice him, what will?

[rjh01]

I agree with GzuzKryzt. Can anyone point to three posts made by Ali in the last three months that indicates that he has the ability to go to an organisation and make a request like what Jackalgirl is preposing in such a way as it will be granted?

[Jackalgirl]

I agree with GzuzKryzt. Can anyone point to three posts made by Ali in the last three months that indicates that he has the ability to go to an organisation and make a request like what Jackalgirl is preposing in such a way as it will be granted?

I can't, but I can always hope. The last thing I saw from him was him expressing a reluctance to talk to the police and/or dog trainers due to a fear of being shot down. So I was trying to propose a solution to the problem. It's up to him to either run with it or come up with an excuse for why it won't work.

[GzuzKryzt]

I grew up in rural western Germany.

In an area of 25km (~15,5mi.) around the village, there were three licensed private dog trainers to be found - not counting those who worked with the local police. And those were just the ones I knew of.

Since Germany and England have a lot in common, I really can't imagine it being too difficult to find a qualified private dog trainer. Especially with a mil of easy money at stake.

The point being: As many claimers of the paranornal, Ali enjoys talking. He does not enjoy providing evidence.
Not even with a possible reward of one million Ben Franklins.

[Jackalgirl]

The point being: As many claimers of the paranornal, Ali enjoys talking. He does not enjoy providing evidence.
Not even with a possible reward of one million Ben Franklins.

I appreciate what you're saying, but I was making a suggestion to Ali, and I'd like to see what his response is (if, indeed, he responds at all). He may very well act exactly as you predict, but I'd rather see that from him himself, directly.

[Gulliver]

Not even with a possible reward of one million Ben Franklins.
Just to set the record straight, the portrait of our first president (under the Constitution), George Washington, appears on the current United States one-dollar bill.

Ben Franklin appears on the current one-hundred-dollar bill.

Just saying...
Gulliver

[GzuzKryzt]

Just to set the record straight, the portrait of our first president (under the Constitution), George Washington, appears on the current United States one-dollar bill.

Ben Franklin appears on the current one-hundred-dollar bill.

Just saying...
Gulliver

My bad. Thanks, Gulliver.

(Ben Franklin would mean a $100,000,000 Challenge reward; now that's walkin'-around money.)

[Ali]

So here's what I recommend: Ali, get in touch with a skeptic's group in England. CSICOP has a list of skeptical organizations here (http://www.csicop.org/resources/organizations.html). Tell them about your ability, in as bare, no-explanations English as possible (e.g., "I can prevent a trained attack dog, specifically ordered to bite me, from biting me."). Ask them to act as intermediaries in helping you to find attack-dog trainers who would be willing to help you with your test. Make sure that you let them know that you will pay all associated costs.


Jackalgirl, csicop is the same mixture as with jref:
The only difference is that they offer £13000.

[Gravy]

My $1 prediction: No Ali Seifoori, no matter how broke or hungry, will ever submit to any test of his claimed ability to not be bitten by critters.

[GzuzKryzt]

Jackalgirl, csicop is the same mixture as with jref:
The only difference is that they offer £13000.

That's 1,000,000 US Dollars and 13,000 British Pounds waiting for you, Ali.
Two simple demonstrations of your claimed ability under controlled conditions.

What's keeping you from doing it?

[Ali]

That's 1,000,000 US Dollars and 13,000 British Pounds waiting for you, Ali.
Two simple demonstrations of your claimed ability under controlled conditions.

What's keeping you from doing it?

I'm very skeptical:
I'll be posting it tomorrow.

[Gravy]

You'll be posting what tomorrow? Your reasons for backing down?

[Jackalgirl]

Jackalgirl, csicop is the same mixture as with jref:
The only difference is that they offer £13000.

Does this mean you'll be taking my advice and approaching them to help you find someone with an attack dog and suit who might be willing to test your claim?

[Ali]

Does this mean you'll be taking my advice and approaching them to help you find someone with an attack dog and suit who might be willing to test your claim?

I filled a claim form and sent it off to csicop.

[GzuzKryzt]

I filled a claim form and sent it off to csicop.

Please post the filled out claim form here, Ali. That would be nice.

[Ali]

Please post the filled out claim form here, Ali. That would be nice.

Here's the claim that I sent:
Dear Sir,
This letter is concerned about my claim.
My supernatural attribute:

No dog, whatever its size, no matter how wild or how hungry, will bite me.

Demonstration: any setting of your choice. For example have a trained attack dog be ordered to attack while using a dog-training suit.

I look forward to hearing from you.

[GzuzKryzt]

Here's the claim that I sent:

Dear Sir,
This letter is concerned about my claim.
My supernatural attribute:

No dog, whatever its size, no matter how wild or how hungry, will bite me.

Demonstration: any setting of your choice. For example have a trained attack dog be ordered to attack while using a dog-training suit.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Thank you, Ali.

Will you please let us know about their response?

[Jackalgirl]

I filled a claim form and sent it off to csicop.

Great! I'm also interested in hearing how they reply. However, you might want to add that in particular, you're looking for their help in contacting someone with the dog and suit. My worry is that they'll say "sure, that's great, but you have to do all the arranging," and we'll be back to square one, given your previous statement that you're hesitant to approach dog trainers or police training organizations because you think they'll dismiss you out-of-hand.

Also, make very sure that, when you do contact the dog-training folks, that you ask them very specifically about their training; i.e., will the dog attack me from behind, will the dog attack me if I don't move, etc.

Good start!

[CynicalSkeptic]

Alli,
I'm not sure, but I'm guessing you'll need some work on your protocol.
You wrote:

Demonstration: any setting of your choice. For example have a trained attack dog be ordered to attack while using a dog-training suit.One failure does not prove anything. I would expand it:
Demonstration: any setting of your choice. As a control, another volunteer will be needed. Three different attack dogs will be ordered to attack the volunteer one at a time. Once all 3 dogs successfully engage, and their trainers agree that the dogs are behaving as expected, I will wear the same training suit, and the dogs will be commanded to attack me one at a time. All three will fail to attack. If any of them do actually attack me while wearing the suit, that will constitute a failure. If none of them attack me, that will constitute success.

I'm sure the language could be cleaned up, but I'm guessing that this protocol would be much closer to being acceptable than yours.

[Ali]

I just received this form csicop.


Dear Mr Seifoori,

Thank you for your completed application form. Before taking this any further I would like to clear up a few points.

Firstly I'm not sure how this can be shown to be a supernatural power. A friend of my assures me that a dog warden he knows claims never to have been bitten by any dog. He says it's all down to body language and supreme confidence. How does your claim differ from this?

This aside there are some other aspects I would like to mention.

You state, "No dog, whatever its size, no matter how wild or how hungry, will bite me".
How do we find such a dog?
We can't expect it to be starving hungry as that would be cruel to the dog.
Who would control this wild aggressive dog and could we prevent it from injuring anyone else?
Suppose it was to severely injure you, you might sue us. And no we can't preclude this in a legal contract.
I am not sure that this is an ethical test.

I would also remind you of rule 6.

"6. All of the applicant's expenses such as transportation, accommodation, materials, assistants, and/or all other costs for any persons or procedures incurred in pursuit of the reward, are the sole responsibility of the applicant. ASKE will not bear any of the costs ."

The costs of even the preliminary test would include;
Payment of dog handler including transport costs.
Transport costs of ASKE personnel,
Cost or hire of protective suit.
Possible cost of transporting dog(s) for the test.
These are just off the top of my head. In view of the nature of this test we would certainly invoke rule 11; can you comply with this?


I look forward to hearing your reply.


ASKE Challenge Coordinator

This seems to be a closed case.
I welcome any suggestions as how to comply.

[Jackalgirl]

This seems to be a closed case.
I welcome any suggestions as how to comply.

It's not closed at all. It just says things we've been saying all along. I warned you that sending a vague message to CSICOP would probably result in these kinds of questions -- I did not originally suggest "send your claim to CSICOP"; I specifically suggested that you contact them and ask them for help and advice in contacting dog trainers in your area. In fact, as I recall, I didn't suggest going to CSICOP -- rather, I suggested a specific page of theirs that lists skeptical groups in the UK. I suggested that you contact one of /those/ and ask for advice and assistance in finding a dog trainer willing to help you with your claim.

However, you didn't follow any of that advice. Instead, you sent the same vague claim that you sent to JREF, only with the coda that a trained police attack dog could be used. Are you really surprised that they responded with the questions they did?

And, by the way, they didn't say "we won't do it". They said, "these are our questions and concerns," meaning that they're expecting you to come up with some explanations and possible solutions.

Your claim, as stated, is untestable for all the reasons people have been telling you (over and over and over and over). We have been trying to come up with a solution that will be acceptable. You need to go back and read the messages that offer suggestion. If you need someone's help in framing a letter to a local UK skeptics' group, I (and I'm sure others) will be willing to help. But if you persist on sending vague challenge applications in, we can't help you.

[Jackalgirl]

Ali --

Another thought. Please don't take this the wrong way -- I'm not trying to insult your language capability, but is it possible that English is not your first language? If that's so, what is your first language?

The reason why I ask is that I'm not convinced that you really understand what I've been saying all this time. I'm left with the conclusion that either a) you don't, or b) you do, but you don't want to. In other words, one of the possibilities is that you're deliberately trying to get shot down so that you can later say, "these skeptics! They're not even willing to test me!"

But that's jumping to conclusions. If English isn't your primary language, could you let us know what is? I might be able to find someone who can translate my suggestions.

[rjh01]

There is also a third and fourth options. That he is no different from the other people who claim to have some super natural powers. He has never explained to us how he has reached the conclusion that 'No dog, whatever its size, no matter how wild or how hungry, will bite me.' That means he either is trying to win by using some sort of trick (as implied by the letter posted by Ali and in other posts in this thread) or Ali does not understand something (as suggested by Jackalgirl above) or the third or fourth options.

If Ali had some sort of supernatural power he would say that he goes into peoples' backyard and attacks their dogs who then run away. So sorry but no supernatural power has been suggested and I do not understand why certain people keep on feeding Ali.

On the other hand there is plenty of evidence for the other options which I have suggested.

[Ali]

I'm afraid it's been a waste of time or has it, I say to myself:
I now know for certain things I was unsure of…

[Jackalgirl]

I'm afraid it's been a waste of time or has it, I say to myself:
I now know for certain things I was unsure of…

Let's try it this way. Ali, if I write a letter for you, asking for assistance on the dog-training/suit issue, and provide the email address for a UK skeptics association, would you be willing to send that letter to that association? Or will you simply submit your claim as you have to JREF and CSICOP?

[Ali]

Let's try it this way. Ali, if I write a letter for you, asking for assistance on the dog-training/suit issue, and provide the email address for a UK skeptics association, would you be willing to send that letter to that association? Or will you simply submit your claim as you have to JREF and CSICOP?
Hi Jackalgirl,
OK, I'll do as you say.

[Jackalgirl]

Hi Jackalgirl,
OK, I'll do as you say.

Copy that! Here's your list of addressees:

Michael J. Hutchinson, europe@csicop.org
ASKE (The Association for Skeptical Enquiry), aske@talktalk.net
Toby Howard, Skeptic Magazine, toby@cs.man.ac.uk

And here's your letter. I've stuck it in a quote block so that it's clear from the rest of this message's text.

Dear Mr. Hutchinson, Mr. Howard, and members of ASKE,

My name is Ali Seifoori and I am hoping you could provide with some assistance and/or guidance.

I would like to apply for the James Randi Educational Foundation's Paranormal Challenge. I believe I have the paranoral ability to prevent animals from attacking me. I have been discussing possible test protocols with members of the JREF Forum and they have provided me with some suggestions.

One is that I get in contact with attack-dog trainers and find one who is willing to help me test my theory: I will wear a padded dog-training suit and the dog will be ordered to attack me. However, I am nervous about contacting such trainers on my own; I am worried that they will dismiss me out-of-hand. This is why I am writing to you.

Would you be willing to help me find an attack-dog trainer who would be willing to help? I can make some specific assurances:
1) I am willing to pay for all associated costs, in terms of equipment and time.
2) I am willing to sign a waiver of all liability should I be injured in any way.
I also have some specific questions, which I am hoping you will help me pass on to a dog-trainer:
1) If I stand perfectly still, will an attack dog still attack me, when ordered?
2) Will an attack dog, when ordered, attack me from behind?
I would like to be able to ensure that no other mechanisms are in play -- that is, that it is my ability that is preventing the dog from attacking, not body language. I will definitely be honing the protocol to introduce other controls; at this point in time, however, I want to start by simply getting in touch with someone willing to help.

I hope that my explanation of what I am looking for convinces you that I am sincere in developing a sound test protocol and I am also hopeful that you will consider lending me some of your time in finding a trainer who is willing to participate.

I hope to hear from you soon, and thank you in advance for your consideration.


Sincerely,

Ali Seifoori
(put your location in the UK here, Ali)
(put your email address here)


Give this a try. It's not a challenge application; rather, a request for assistance. I highly recommend posting any responses here before responding. Good luck!

[Reno]

Jackalgirl, you have my utmost admiration for your polite, straightforward communications to Ali. The letter you wrote for him is exactly how a rational, logical person would approach this test.

However, I fear that Ali is neither rational nor logical. It seems that he is quite possibly mentally ill. If his mental problems are limited to posting on message boards on the internet, then no harm should come of it. But to have his delusions fuelled by rational people who (to Ali) are taking his claims seriously may lead him to become more and more deranged possibly to the point where he may climb into a lion pit out of desperation to prove himself.

Ali has been given more than a fair crack of the whip here, and has consistantly failed to prove anything other than his unwillingness to follow a normal, rational procedure. I think he is actually unable to comply with a rational procedure because that would force him to face the possibility that he is mentally unstable. That could be quite disastrous for him and anyone in his vicinity.

I would urge you, and all other concerned members to refrain from posting in reply to any more of Ali's ramblings. Let him move on to other boards and let's hope that the worst he ever does is post on message boards.

I post here as a concerned person and I have no knowledge or background in any form of psychiatric diagnosis.

[Jackalgirl]

Hi, Reno --

I understand what you're saying, but herein lies the rub: none of us here, myself included, have the expertise necessary to make a diagnosis from his posts. It's also possible that his English is so poor that he simply doesn't understand what we have been saying and suggesting to him so far.

Someone has to give him the benefit of the doubt. He could wander off to other boards where no one takes him seriously, or he could wander off to a board where, instead of trying to get him hooked up with someone who knows what they're doing, someone actually suggests he climb into a lion pit. For all we know, if Ali /is/ crazy, that if we all start ignoring him he /will/ try something like climbing in a lion's pit to prove us wrong.

There's no way to know what's going to happen. The best that I can do is to try to teach him how to think critically, and put him in touch with local people who can (hopefully) give him some good advice.

[Reno]

I take your points Jackalgirl.

I have responded to Ali on a couple of occasions here, but I now regret posting to him. I'm not psychic (no-one is!) but I can see this easily going all bad. I think Ali is determined to persist in his belief, and reject all the methods that will prove to him that he is wrong. I am worried that he is going to jump into a lion pit unless someone can convince him that he's wrong. I don't think even your well-balanced and thoughtful posts are going to help him. I think he should be urged to speak to a doctor as soon as possible. Maybe then he'll get the help he needs.

[Ali]

Dear friends,
If anyone has any sense he'll come to me:
How can a master be ordered by children?

[Jackalgirl]

Dear friends,
If anyone has any sense he'll come to me:
How can a master be ordered by children?

Good morning, Ali --

Have you sent the letter?

[GzuzKryzt]

I'm afraid it's been a waste of time or has it, I say to myself:
I now know for certain things I was unsure of…

What exactly would that be, Ali?

Dear friends,
If anyone has any sense he'll come to me:
How can a master be ordered by children?

You won't proove your claim, you lack the ability to have a coherent discussion and you obviously enjoy the "company" in this thread.

Your ability exists only in your head. Try to realise that, Ali.

[Ali]

Good morning Jackalgirl,
I just emailed the letter as above.

[Jackalgirl]

Good morning Jackalgirl,
I just emailed the letter as above.

Excellent! Let us know how they reply. : )