How can liberals whine about George W. Bush killing thousands of people?

[1inChrist]

When 1.3 million babies are slaughtered each year in America alone?

You liberals need to justify yourselves. You hippie's claim George W. Bush is wrong for taking thousands of lives but what about the 1.3 million babies who were murdered this year? What about them? Do you realize since 1997 more babies were slaughtered than Jews during the holocaust?

To be pro-abortion and anti-war makes no sense whatsoever.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
When 1.3 million babies are slaughtered each year in America alone?

You liberals need to justify yourselves. You hippie's claim George W. Bush is wrong for taking thousands of lives but what about the 1.3 million babies who were murdered this year? What about them? Do you realize since 1997 more babies were slaughtered than Jews during the holocaust?

To be pro-abortion and anti-war makes no sense whatsoever. How does pro-war and anti-abortion make more sense?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Atlas
How does pro-war and anti-abortion make more sense?

Hmmm...... I don't recall babies hijacking air planes and killing American citizens. But I can recall liberals hijacking our government and killing MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of unborn American citizens.

[SlippyToad]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
When 1.3 million babies are slaughtered each year in America alone?

You liberals need to justify yourselves. You hippie's claim George W. Bush is wrong for taking thousands of lives but what about the 1.3 million babies who were murdered this year? What about them? Do you realize since 1997 more babies were slaughtered than Jews during the holocaust?

To be pro-abortion and anti-war makes no sense whatsoever. Well, you don't make any sense either, quite frankly. We could go back quite a ways with this, but at least I'm not falling all over myself about an imaginary friend.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by SlippyToad
Well, you don't make any sense either, quite frankly. We could go back quite a ways with this

What did I say that didn't make sense?

Originally posted by SlippyToad
but at least I'm not falling all over myself about an imaginary friend.

That ''imaginary'' friend won't be so imaginary when you taste His Wrath on Judgement day.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
That ''imaginary'' friend won't be so imaginary when you taste His Wrath on Judgement day. Is there a choice of flavors?

[evildave]

Brimstone, fire, or strawberry cake flavored?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by varwoche
Is there a choice of flavors?

The eternal Hellfire is NOT a joke.

The Terrors of Hell (http://amightywind.com/hell/terrorhell.htm)

[1inChrist]

John 3:16:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[demon]

Make that two double wrath flavours to go please. And a large wrath shake.

Get a load of the avatar...very fitting. A forged image of Christ for a believer in a fake diety.

[ScrollMaker]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
When 1.3 million babies are slaughtered each year in America alone?

Actually abortions destroy zygotes, not babies. Do you cry when you step on an ant, since that's about the equivalent of a zygote.

Originally posted by 1inChrist
... unborn American citizens.

Unborn American citizens? That's quite an oxymoron.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by demon
Make that two double wrath flavours to go please. And a large wrath shake.

WHY ARE YOU JOKING ABOUT THE REALITY OF THE ETERNAL HELLFIRE?

Do you not understand that Hell is real?

Hardcore atheist Dr. Maurice Rawlings gives his life to Christ after his patients kept screaming ''I'm in Hell!'' as they slipped in and out of conciousness. (http://www.av1611.org/hell.html)

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by ScrollMaker
Actually abortions destroy zygotes, not babies. Do you cry when you step on an ant, since that's about the equivalent of a zygote.

Are you comparing a HUMAN BEING to an ant? Wow. I am so happy we do not have an atheist President.

Originally posted by ScrollMaker
Unborn American citizens? That's quite an oxymoron.

There you go back to your safe haven of logic and reason. Can't you people think with your heart?

[evildave]

Of course, the biblical way of handling this is better: stone 'em to death. Pregnancy solved. Only kills MOM and BABY that way. So just multiply that 'millions' figure by two, and we have the religious solution to unwanted pregnancy.

No, of course abortion is not "good", but having no birth control will only mean that 12 and 13 year old girls will resort to lye douches and back alley quacks with coathangars to fix their 'little mistakes'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338362,00.html

And the numbers are UP. Death rate is at an extra 100,000 over the last 18 months now, and that number will not get better while poverty and anarchy (thanks to our 'brilliant' campaign) remain.

Infant mortality rose from 29 deaths per 1,000 live births before the war to 57 deaths per 1,000 afterward.

Good Job. Protect those babies from Saddam, because we need to kill them instead.

[materia3]

Its very simple really. Bush is responsible, with his self-defined moral clarity and singleness of purpose, for the deaths of a minimum of 100,000 Iraqui men, women and children in the name of prosecuting a war against terrorism and against WMDS and against Saddem Hussein who Bush said was a bigger monster than he was. There was no WMDs and no acts of terrorism against this country from Iraq.

There is no moral equivalence between one person causing so many deaths and individual women who cause one death of an unborn embryo or fertilized ovum and what Bush has done.

For all his blasemphous pronouncements(*) that he is the hand of god, that god talks through him and that god approves everything he does, the man is simply lying or is schizophrenic; god, if he existed, would never approve what he has done in Iraq. Nor would god approve his playing ball with the Afghan drug lords, making that country the largest producer of heroin in the world, funding the very terroism he is vowed to fight while wrecking havoc, misery and death on all who are addicted by this nefarious drug or are involved in its trade.

In short the religious right in America has been royally screwed by yet another self-annointed charismatic leader who claims to have god's ear and acts on his behalf. And like many of these leaders, it is the promise of untold riches (e.g. in this case, war profiteering) that is their true agenda.

You are sadly deluded if you can compare Bush's acts as anything other than transgressions with that of an individual pregnant teenager who may've been raped by her own god fearing father.

Christ: make sure you save a place in hell for both of them. I wonder who god will forgive in the final round? What do you think?


(*) And in case you were not aware of it, invoking god's name as casually as Bush does is considered the worst sort of blasphemy
by Jews, Moslems and many Christian denominations. Assuming Bush is not insane, this is simply pandering engineered by Karl Rove and sucessfully used to put his man back in office by co-opting the religious vote in America.

[ScrollMaker]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Are you comparing a HUMAN BEING to an ant? Wow. I am so happy we do not have an atheist President.

When you say "a HUMAN BEING" you are referring to a living, breathing, thinking person. A zygote is none of the above.

Originally posted by 1inChrist
There you go back to your safe haven of logic and reason. Can't you people think with your heart?

Actually my brain does the thinking.

[SlippyToad]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
What did I say that didn't make sense?



That ''imaginary'' friend won't be so imaginary when you taste His Wrath on Judgement day. Oooh, I'm scared now.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by ScrollMaker


Actually my brain does the thinking.

I know several people who think with their @ss. But I won't name names. :D

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by SlippyToad
Oooh, I'm scared now.

Imagine yourself drowning in an ocean of lava. Imagine feeling the hot lava melt your flesh and imagine it pouring into your lungs and you try to gasp for air. IMAGINE FEELING THAT FOR ETERNITY. Begging God for a drop of water to put our the fire on your tongue. Hell is not a joke.

[Lisa Simpson]

However, you are, 1inC.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
I know several people who think with their @ss. But I won't name names. :D

I think with my heart. Maybe you should stop worshipping Buddha and try thinking with your heart. Let me ask you something, where is Buddha? He's dead. His body is rotting in the ground. Let me ask you something, where is Jesus? In Heaven, His dead body rose 3 days after His execution. Jesus is alive while other religious founders are dead.

[evildave]

Ooh, it's Barney the Dinosaur telling us what to 'imagine' again.

[ScrollMaker]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
... Hell is not a joke.

If it's not a joke, then why does it sound so funny?

[1inChrist]

Read this Lisa. (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/newage13.txt)

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by ScrollMaker
If it's not a joke, then why does it sound so funny?

What is funny about it? Has anyone you love who's not a Christian died? Well, they are experiencing the horrors of the Hellfire as we speak. Yeah, REAL funny. :mad:

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I think with my heart. Maybe you should stop worshipping Buddha and try thinking with your heart. Let me ask you something, where is Buddha? He's dead. His body is rotting in the ground. Let me ask you something, where is Jesus? In Heaven, His dead body rose 3 days after His execution. Jesus is alive while other religious founders are dead.


First--Buddhists don't "worship" Buddha. He is not a god.

Second--Yep. Buddha is dead, although rotting has probably stopped by now, seeing as how he's been dead a couple thousand years. Just like Jesus. The resurrection is as much of a fairy tale as everything else in the Bible.

p.s. I never said you were one of the people who speaks with their @ss. You @ssumed you were. :D

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Read this Lisa. (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/newage13.txt)

I've read it. Repeatedly. Come up with some new anti-Buddhist propaganda, will you? The old stuff is boring.

[Elind]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
When 1.3 million babies are slaughtered each year in America alone?

You liberals need to justify yourselves. You hippie's claim George W. Bush is wrong for taking thousands of lives but what about the 1.3 million babies who were murdered this year? What about them? Do you realize since 1997 more babies were slaughtered than Jews during the holocaust?

To be pro-abortion and anti-war makes no sense whatsoever.

Actually God slaughtered many many more, since over half of all pregnancies result in miscarriages. Seems like that would be a minor thing for a real god to fix, if he cared; don't you?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
First--Buddhists don't "worship" Buddha. He is not a god.

Second--Yep. Buddha is dead, although rotting has probably stopped by now, seeing as how he's been dead a couple thousand years. Just like Jesus. The resurrection is as much of a fairy tale as everything else in the Bible.

p.s. I never said you were one of the people who speaks with their @ss. You @ssumed you were. :D

The Resurrection is a FACT (http://www.av1611.org/resur.html)

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
The Resurrection is a FACT (http://www.av1611.org/resur.html)

So you were there then? You actually saw it, so that you can verify the events?

If you weren't, the only "proof" you have is the Bible. And that's not proof.

[evildave]

Yeah, just like your god, demigod, bible, satan, hell, and all that other fairy tale junk.

And He lives on the North Pole and His elves make toys.

Whatever.

[SlippyToad]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Imagine yourself drowning in an ocean of lava. Imagine feeling the hot lava melt your flesh and imagine it pouring into your lungs and you try to gasp for air. IMAGINE FEELING THAT FOR ETERNITY. Begging God for a drop of water to put our the fire on your tongue. Hell is not a joke. No. You are a joke. My neighbors tried frightening me with this kind of garbage when I was 7 years old, and it had no effect on me.

You have not been to this place of which you speak. No one has. So how on earth can you possibly call up this terrifying image of something that's clearly not real and expect anyone to take you seriously? I was not raised by people who frightened their children to bed with fairy tales like this. Therefore the switch you keep expecting to throw in my mind isn't there.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
So you were there then? You actually saw it, so that you can verify the events?

If you weren't, the only "proof" you have is the Bible. And that's not proof.

WRONG! Biblical prophecy and The Holy Ghost CONFIRM the authority of The Bible. Also any Christian will tell you The Word is not an ordinary text but a text which God speaks to you through. Since you aren't a Christian you don't understand it meaning you are IGNORANT to the Truth of His Word.

[Lisa Simpson]

I grew up Christian. I get the whole "word of truth" thing. I just don't agree. I think it's a fairy tale, meant to scare people into joining up with Christianity.

There is no PROOF of Jesus' resurrection.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by evildave
Yeah, just like your god, demigod, bible, satan, hell, and all that other fairy tale junk.

And He lives on the North Pole and His elves make toys.

Whatever.

Pathetic. You try to compare The One True God with other gods and Santa Clause? Just another example of intellectual smokescreens put up to deny the Truth.

You have been warned of the danger and horror that awaits you if you die without Christ.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
I grew up Christian. I get the whole "word of truth" thing. I just don't agree. I think it's a fairy tale, meant to scare people into joining up with Christianity.

There is no PROOF of Jesus' resurrection.

500 witnesses.

[Lisa Simpson]

500 witnesses?

Bring them forth. Let me question them.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
500 witnesses?

Bring them forth. Let me question them.

Just pray to Jesus to show you the way to Salvation.

[SlippyToad]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
WRONG! Biblical prophecy and The Holy Ghost CONFIRM the authority of The Bible. Also any Christian will tell you The Word is not an ordinary text but a text which God speaks to you through. Since you aren't a Christian you don't understand it meaning you are IGNORANT to the Truth of His Word. Is that like the talking Barney book I got my daughter?

[1inChrist]

I guess no liberal wants to refute my original post. Fine by me, didn't think they had it in them anyway.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Just pray to Jesus to show you the way to Salvation.

That's not what I asked for. I want to question the 500 witnesses.

[1inChrist]

I won this debate.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
That's not what I asked for. I want to question the 500 witnesses.

They are not alive anymore but you can read about them in The Holy Scriptures.

[Lisa Simpson]

You won?

:big:

[Elind]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I won this debate.

Is that according to your 500 witnesses, or because you didn't bother to answer my post?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
You won?

:big:

Sure did. No liberal rebutted my original post. I WIN. Period.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
They are not alive anymore but you can read about them in The Holy Scriptures.

THEN IT IS NOT PROOF!!!!!!!

[ScrollMaker]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I guess no liberal wants to refute my original post. Fine by me, didn't think they had it in them anyway.

Um... It got refuted by about four or five people now. You're a nut by the way. I seriously am beginning to think this is just some atheist having fun. Your posts are barely coherent with all the keywords in big, bold, red letters and random links to geocities websites claiming proof of supernatural miracles.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Sure did. No liberal rebutted my original post. I WIN. Period.

Fine here is my rebuttal.

You approve of the war. You are anti-abortion. You are no more logical than the liberals you are ranting against.


THOU SHALT NOT KILL

I win. Argument by commandment.

[SlippyToad]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
What is funny about it? Has anyone you love who's not a Christian died? Well, they are experiencing the horrors of the Hellfire as we speak. Yeah, REAL funny. :mad: I'd rather spend a billion years searing in Hell alongside honest people than 1 minute in Heaven with a bunch of pious frauds like you.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Elind
Actually God slaughtered many many more, since over half of all pregnancies result in miscarriages. Seems like that would be a minor thing for a real god to fix, if he cared; don't you?

GOD IS THE LAW MAKER. The rules do not apply to the one who makes them.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
Fine here is my rebuttal.

You approve of the war. You are anti-abortion. You are no more logical than the liberals you are ranting against.


THOU SHALT NOT KILL

I win. Argument by commandment.

Killing in self defense is FINE and that's what this war is. Defending America against the forces of evil.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Killing in self defense is FINE and that's what this war is. Defending America against the forces of evil.

Tell that to the families of Iraqi citizens who were not involved in any terrorist attacks.

ETA: The commandment doesn't make an exception for self-defense, does it? Pretty clear cut--THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by ScrollMaker
Um... It got refuted by about four or five people now. You're a nut by the way. I seriously am beginning to think this is just some atheist having fun. Your posts are barely coherent with all the keywords in big, bold, red letters and random links to geocities websites claiming proof of supernatural miracles.

Um, it has been refuted? What, by YOU? You, the guy who claims ants and human beings are the same? Pfft. By the way, the whole troll charge does not stick. Stop trying to silence God's Word by making people turn against the messenger.

[BLACK HAT]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Killing in self defense is FINE and that's what this war is. Defending America against the forces of evil.

The answer to this is simple. Babies are terrorists

Case closed.

Actions justified.

[SlippyToad]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
GOD IS THE LAW MAKER. The rules do not apply to the one who makes them. Ah yes, the old "do as I say, not as I do" defense for hypocrisy.

It's sentiments like this that drive people away from religion.

[ScrollMaker]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Killing in self defense is FINE and that's what this war is. Defending America against the forces of evil.

Killing in self defense? Iraq never attacked us, you puppet. And by the way, evil is in the eye of the beholder.

[SlippyToad]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Sure did. No liberal rebutted my original post. I WIN. Period. We didn't butt your post to begin with. How could we re-butt it?

[1inChrist]

Originally posted by ScrollMaker
Killing in self defense? Iraq never attacked us, you puppet. And by the way, evil is in the eye of the beholder.

You watch way too much CNN. Perhaps you should watch a REAL news channel so you get the facts. Saddam Hussein supported terrorists. Period.

[ScrollMaker]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
You watch way too much CNN. Perhaps you should watch a REAL news channel so you get the facts. Saddam Hussein supported terrorists. Period.

So it makes perfect sense that we didn't kill Saddam, but instead killed the innocent civilians living in his country? Self-defense my ass.

[calibos]

Originally posted by SlippyToad
Ah yes, the old "do as I say, not as I do" defense for hypocrisy.

It's sentiments like this that drive people away from religion.

And he seems to have no idea.

1inChrist, people like you are the reason there are atheists. If you've ever read any threads in the religion and philosophy forums about why people became atheists you might start to realise this...well, any normal thinking person would. For one thing you might try easing off on your obsession with Satan and Hell and you might win some converts - though certainly not on these forums.

Also we've learnt from you that things that don't make sense are of God whereas sensible and logical things are of Satan. So have you gone back on this when you say that 'it doesn't make sense to be anti-war/pro-abortion'?? Are you suggesting that it 'isn't the way of Satan' to be anti-war and pro-abortion??

[calibos]

Oh and heres a new gimmick, lets all emulate 1inChrist by adding the word 'period' to the end of all our posts that they must then surely be true and correct. Period.

[SlippyToad]

Originally posted by calibos
And he seems to have no idea.

1inChrist, people like you are the reason there are atheists. If you've ever read any threads in the religion and philosophy forums about why people became atheists you might start to realise this...well, any normal thinking person would. For one thing you might try easing off on your obsession with Satan and Hell and you might win some converts - though certainly not on these forums.

Also we've learnt from you that things that don't make sense are of God whereas sensible and logical things are of Satan. So have you gone back on this when you say that 'it doesn't make sense to be anti-war/pro-abortion'?? Are you suggesting that it 'isn't the way of Satan' to be anti-war and pro-abortion?? I suggest that 1inChrist can tie himself in a perfect logical pretzel about this and never figure out that he's done it.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Atlas
How does pro-war and anti-abortion make more sense? Originally posted by 1inChrist
Hmmm...... I don't recall babies hijacking air planes and killing American citizens. But I can recall liberals hijacking our government and killing MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of unborn American citizens. This is the most sense you've made in any of the responses of yours I've read. And you stayed away from logic. :D

What I liked about it was you did not need to resort to hell or eternal torment. Sure, it was all about killing, but that's where you head's at.

I'm no psychologist but it doesn't take one to understand how a person locked on thoughts of death, murder, hellfire and torment may experience bad dreams. I'm probably over the line bringing the subject up but your fixation on all things negative and dark concerning the God of light is most likely very near the root of your affliction.

If you would dwell in joy and love and the promise of life everlasting you will find your faith enriched. Of course it would mean giiving up the threats you make on other people's souls. We have gotten your message in that regard. Continuing in that vein invites ridicule. I dare say you become a stumbling block. Unless you have a positive message the we can see lights your way and helps make your life worth living, you are asking us to listen to the ravings of a madman. You are inviting us into the world that creates your nightmares. Why would you even want that?

[Elind]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
GOD IS THE LAW MAKER. The rules do not apply to the one who makes them.

But He seems so much like you. In your image perhaps?

Seriously though, what do you get out of this exchange on this forum? I have to think you are serious because to play the fool so consistently would be very boring to anyone else, however troubled.

Many of us, myself included sometimes, vent our frustrations on others but for the most part we have have some common ground. You on the other hand are no different from a dowser trying to earn $1 million, except in the way you threaten dire consequences if you are not believed.

Is that the Christian way to convert others?

Men have ascribed to God imperfections that they would deplore in themselves.
-W. Somerset Maugham

[Savagemutt]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
[b]WHY ARE YOU JOKING ABOUT THE REALITY OF THE ETERNAL HELLFIRE?

Hardcore atheist Dr. Maurice Rawlings gives his life to Christ after his patients kept screaming ''I'm in Hell!'' as they slipped in and out of conciousness. (http://www.av1611.org/hell.html)

I thought they just saw his bill.

*rimshot*

Thank you, thank you...I'll be here all week.

[SlippyToad]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
You watch way too much CNN. Perhaps you should watch a REAL news channel so you get the facts. Saddam Hussein supported terrorists. Period. This statement is easily as credible as anything else you have said on this board. I therefore take it as such.

[SlippyToad]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
WHY ARE YOU JOKING ABOUT THE REALITY OF THE ETERNAL HELLFIRE?

Do you not understand that Hell is real?

Hardcore atheist Dr. Maurice Rawlings gives his life to Christ after his patients kept screaming ''I'm in Hell!'' as they slipped in and out of conciousness. (http://www.av1611.org/hell.html) I wish I had a recording of the burst of laughter I emitted as I followed your link. You're killing me.

My favorite quote: Inside Earth from Textbook. Notice the fire in the earth.

Ok, I've read some more. I've got an even better quote. YOU will see HELL. . .
YOU will smell HELL. . .
YOU will breathe HELL. . .
YOU will hear HELL. . .
YOU will feel HELL. . .
YOU WILL BE HELL. . .

. . .

HELL IS FOREVER!

Looks like some serious death-metal lyrics, dude.

If you're trying to convert me, sending me to gothic-cartoonish sites like this isn't going to work. I am not recently arrived from the 16th century.

Is this like, your site or something? The rhetoric and font style looks very familiar.

[NickW]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I guess no liberal wants to refute my original post. Fine by me, didn't think they had it in them anyway.
Actually, your first post is the only thing ive read by you so far that I, at least, semi-agree with. However, this topic got off topic VERY quickly

[varwoche]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
What is funny about it? Has anyone you love who's not a Christian died? Well, they are experiencing the horrors of the Hellfire as we speak. Yeah, REAL funny. :mad: I never did like Aunt Betty.

add: The red font is a nice touch... conveys that brimstone sorta vibe.

[SlippyToad]

Originally posted by NickW
Actually, your first post is the only thing ive read by you so far that I, at least, semi-agree with. However, this topic got off topic VERY quickly Well, you have to realize that 1-in-Dude is either a major troll who has a lot of fun doing this, or takes himself way too seriously.

For a few minutes there, the posts were flying really fast, because apparently 1-in and I were online at the same time, and I type about 90 words a minute and I absolutely had a blast trolling him for a change. I'd like to meet him on the street someday and see if he can think on his feet for real.

Or maybe he'll make some minor dogmatic error that he overlooks until it's too late, and he and I can chat in HELL.

[DaveMc]

Originally posted by ScrollMaker
Actually abortions destroy zygotes, not babies. Do you cry when you step on an ant, since that's about the equivalent of a zygote. Unborn American citizens? That's quite an oxymoron.

You need to get an education about abortion. You call them zygotes? Go to these web pages and tell me they are "zygotes".

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/monica/mm2.htm

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/index.htm#thumbnails

I pity you for your poor education on this subject.

[Elind]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
When 1.3 million babies are slaughtered each year in America alone?

You liberals need to justify yourselves. You hippie's claim George W. Bush is wrong for taking thousands of lives but what about the 1.3 million babies who were murdered this year? What about them? Do you realize since 1997 more babies were slaughtered than Jews during the holocaust?

To be pro-abortion and anti-war makes no sense whatsoever.

You keep complaining that people don't respond to your original post. I'll try to be more specific.

There are at least two individuals involved in pregnancy. One is a live thinking, sentient, being; the other is a POTENTIAL live sentient being. Most abortions, in the first trimester and usually very early in it, do not involve anything close to a sentient being, and a large percentage of those will in any case be terminated naturally (by god) if there is no abortion first.

While many will see the process as unpleasant and regrettable, the final analysis of pro choice gives more weight to the real known sentient being, rather than to the possible one that you give priority to, apparently without any regard for the first.

Now, you will probably say that your god gives an equivalent soul to any fertilization, whether it is one cell, two, four, eight, sixteen or more, regardless of whether it has a brain or any form of self awareness. In other words you assign greater value to the potential life than you do to the existing one, because your "soul" is equivalent in either case, and the former deserves more protection than the latter.

Then you equate this with war between adults, as if anti-war means pacifist under all circumstances (be killed rather than kill), which it does not.

Firstly, the two situations that make no sense to you are not equivalent. Perhaps that is why it makes no sense to you?

Secondly, the bit about a soul has not been satisfactorily communicated by your god to everyone, except through people like you and, whatever your beliefs, you are probably capable of agreeing that in this forum at least, you are not very good at that.

[DaveMc]

I will only disgust you with two more pictures. I hope that James Randi does not pull this post since he is a proponent of the truth getting out and of critical thinking. Here's two more of your "zygotes".

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/abort10.jpg

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/abort11.jpg

I am sorry to expose you to these images, but this is the truth of what we are dealing with.

[Elind]

Originally posted by DaveMc
I will only disgust you with two more pictures. I hope that James Randi does not pull this post since he is a proponent of the truth getting out and of critical thinking. Here's two more of your "zygotes".

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/abort10.jpg

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/abort11.jpg

I am sorry to expose you to these images, but this is the truth of what we are dealing with.

No doubt we could also search and find gory pictures of women severely damaged by pregnancy that should have been terminated for any number of reasons, but was not because of people like you. Your crude arguments cheapen what is otherwise a serious decision for most women, and you have my contempt for it.

[DaveMc]

Originally posted by Elind
No doubt we could also search and find gory pictures of women severely damaged by pregnancy that should have been terminated for any number of reasons, but was not because of people like you. Your crude arguments cheapen what is otherwise a serious decision for most women, and you have my contempt for it.

Your logic is laughable. In the rare case that a women's health is jeopardized by pregnancy, we should permit ALL women across the U.S. to have millions of abortions at any time?

[SezMe]

Originally posted by DaveMc
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/index.htm#thumbnails
I especially like the one where the cross pendant is wrapped around the abortion. Since we, according to Christianity, are born in sin and only go to heaven when we recognize Jesus as our savior, would you please justify why this lump of protoplasm should "burn in hell forever"?

I know cruelty when I see it and I find you to be cruel beyond words.

[evildave]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Pathetic. You try to compare The One True God with other gods and Santa Clause? Just another example of intellectual smokescreens put up to deny the Truth.

You have been warned of the danger and horror that awaits you if you die without Christ.

Heh! Sure. Santa won't gimme any presents for being an unbeliever.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by DaveMc
Your logic is laughable. In the rare case that a women's health is jeopardized by pregnancy, we should permit ALL women across the U.S. to have millions of abortions at any time? And your arrogance is pitiful.

I note your use of the word "permit." My friend, you may permit yourself to do whatever you like when it comes to matters of your own body. You may not, and will not ever, impose your will one way or the other...on another. That permission is not yours to give.

[Elind]

Originally posted by DaveMc
Your logic is laughable. In the rare case that a women's health is jeopardized by pregnancy, we should permit ALL women across the U.S. to have millions of abortions at any time?

Laugh away. Your kind would not allow it under any circumstance. The womans life is real; what you claim to protect by claiming the right to own that woman's body is not an equivalent person at the stage that abortion is now allowed. Obviously you have no consideration for the many decisions that may lead to abortion; all made by real people with real life issues, but then you believe in a cruel god, don't you?

[evildave]

How could any given woman have 'millions' of abortions? Even if she got pregnant every day of her life, she could only have 18,000 or so pregnancies before menopause, and it doesn't work that way. She could get pregnant every single month, and have maybe 500~600 abortions, tops. But even then, those numbers are very high.

How could she possibly have an abortion 'any time'? She could only possibly get pregnant once in a month.

[DaveMc]

Originally posted by SezMe
I especially like the one where the cross pendant is wrapped around the abortion. Since we, according to Christianity, are born in sin and only go to heaven when we recognize Jesus as our savior, would you please justify why this lump of protoplasm should "burn in hell forever"?

I know cruelty when I see it and I find you to be cruel beyond words.

So now it's gone from a zygote to a "lump of protoplasm". And you're calling ME cruel? I'm sorry, but I see head, hands, feet, etc.

And are you actually saying that all children, i.e. toddlers, do not go to heaven because they havn't recognized jesus yet? That's even more cruel of you.

[DaveMc]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
And your arrogance is pitiful.

I note your use of the word "permit." My friend, you may permit yourself to do whatever you like when it comes to matters of your own body. You may not, and will not ever, impose your will one way or the other...on another. That permission is not yours to give.

So, according to your logic, if someone is suicidal, we should not intervene at all, and just let them do whatever they want to themselves? Let the bridge jumpers just jump?

Are you saying that it is OK for you not to innoculate your child with vaccines at the risk of causing a local epidemic?

[DaveMc]

Originally posted by evildave
How could any given woman have 'millions' of abortions? Even if she got pregnant every day of her life, she could only have 18,000 or so pregnancies before menopause, and it doesn't work that way. She could get pregnant every single month, and have maybe 500~600 abortions, tops. But even then, those numbers are very high.

How could she possibly have an abortion 'any time'? She could only possibly get pregnant once in a month.

Please read the posts more closely next time. I said "all women across the U.S. have millions of abortions". I think I even boldfaced the word "ALL" . Whew! How could you interpret it any other way?

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by DaveMc
So, according to your logic, if someone is suicidal, we should not intervene at all, and just let them do whatever they want to themselves? Let the bridge jumpers just jump?It is widely acknowledged that a person contemplating or threatening suicide does not want to kill themselves but rather is desperately seeking help. However, should a person indeed be determined to end their life, you won't be able to intervene.Are you saying that it is OK for you not to innoculate your child with vaccines at the risk of causing a local epidemic? Where is a child...me?

By the way, I'd caution you against the "are you saying" strawman technique to build an argument. Best to limit yourself to what is actually said/written by another.

[DaveMc]

Originally posted by Elind
Laugh away. Your kind would not allow it under any circumstance. The womans life is real; what you claim to protect by claiming the right to own that woman's body is not an equivalent person at the stage that abortion is now allowed. Obviously you have no consideration for the many decisions that may lead to abortion; all made by real people with real life issues, but then you believe in a cruel god, don't you?

No, you've got me pegged wrong. I'm not a religious zealot, I'm actually an atheist. Why do you think I joined this forum? Not many places for atheists in this world. 90% of Americans believe in a deity. Sad, isn't it? I was raised a Catholic and went to parochial school and actually learned what a fraud religion is. The catholic church is not interested in the almighty god, just the almighty dollar.

I just feel that abortion on demand is wrong. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility. I think that if a woman wants to go for a romp between the sheets, she should take responsibility if she gets pregnant, and not say "Ah, let's just kill it". Ok, that's a harsh way to put it, but the aborted fetus pictures that I linked to in previous posts actually show the real harshness of her abortion decision.

I actually am in favor of abortion if the mother's life is in danger. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I wasn't. I just think that a woman should not be able to get an abortion for any ole reason. Keep your legs together until you're sure that you want a child or have the child and give it up for adoption. Many childless loving couples out there who would thank you for the rest of their lives for giving them the gift of a child. It's the ultimate gift you could give to anyone.

[SezMe]

Originally posted by DaveMc
So now it's gone from a zygote to a "lump of protoplasm". And you're calling ME cruel? I'm sorry, but I see head, hands, feet, etc.

And are you actually saying that all children, i.e. toddlers, do not go to heaven because they havn't recognized jesus yet? That's even more cruel of you.
"lump of protoplasm" or "zygote" or whatever label is used is totally unimportant. That you see a head or hands or whatever is an interesting position for you to take. Are you saying that if <whatever label you chose> does not have visibly apparent body parts analogous to a fully developed human that it is then OK to off the poor <whatever>?

No I am not saying that kiddies don't go to heaven because they have not recognized jesus. Christianlity says that. And, if you are a consistent (with the bible) christian, then YOU say that. Weasal as you will, but that is, in fact, what your bible says.

[Dorian Gray]

1inChrist, I was talking to Satan recently through my microwave, and he told me that if there was a Hell you would definitely be in it. He also told me that you are a complete idiot, and one of his best workers.

The funny thing was when God told me that he didn't exist. Apparently I am not the only one he's told that to.
http://p211.ezboard.com/fargueeverythingfrm34.showMessage?topicID=27.topic
If you believe there is an invisible giant man of a particular ethnicity in the sky who is directing
everything and who is so hateful he will viciously punish us for challenging his existence -

If you believe that this invisible giant man got a 13-year-old virgin girl pregnant, who then gave birth
to him as his own son -

If you believe that this god person wrote a book - and one book only -

If you believe that "confessing the Lord" will instantly remove your sins, thus allowing you to
commit more -

If you believe that a stone will remove your sins, thus allowing you to commit more -

If you believe in vicarious blood-atonement, i.e., that "the Lord died for your sins" and thus you can
commit as many as you wish -

If you believe that merely believing in such a god person makes you righteous, no matter what
atrocities you commit and what hatred and intolerance you carry and spread -

If you believe that some "good" god person is going to reward you for killing living, breathing human
beings "in his name" -

If you believe that going to church, temple, synagogue or mosque, making pilgrimages, or wearing
particular clothes or headdresses, makes you a righteous person, even though you don't behave like
one otherwise -

If you believe that you are special and chosen because of what you believe -

If you believe that it is good to mindlessly go along with whatever anyone tells you about the nature
of God and religion -

If you believe that believing in one God makes you better than and superior to those who don't -

You are NOT displaying critical thinking, not using your mind. You are also uneducated as to the world's
cultures and history. It is not a sign of great intelligence to blindly believe what someone else has told you
is true, especially when such beliefs basically condemn hundreds of millions of other people. Many of
these blind believers are simply not very bright, yet they assume that their belief equalizes them with those
who are smarter. "Jesus loves you just the way you are!" is the hypocritical hue and cry of those who feel
inferior but who will not recognize it and admit it. Yet, according to these same cheerleaders, Jesus
DOESN'T love you just the way you are - you must thoroughly change, surrendering your mind and soul
to him. A bit of a psychotic extortion racket.

The bottom line is that those who dare to question and challenge cherished beliefs which are not rational
and reasonable, and who live relatively righteous lives without such irrational and intolerant beliefs, should
be recognized as being the epitome of what any god person would wish in "his children." They are utilizing
all of the gifts that such a god person would provide, were "he" real. And if they have utilized these
"God-given" gifts, they know that the interpretation of "God" is a cultural artifact, not an absolute truth
that must be defended and beaten into other people. In using these gifts, they will discover that over the
millennia, hundreds of millions of people have held differing opinions as to the Infinite, which is only
common sense, since it is, after all, Infinite.

Humans need to lighten up! Their gods and religions are dreary, humorless, wrathful, intolerant,
oppressive and generally unpleasant. There is no love, no joy, no fun! Humans are under the dominion of
ideologies that are slowly but surely killing them. They need to release them and be free! No one is going
to punish them for enjoying life, and there is no point to living if they can't enjoy it. No good god person
wants to see people stumbling around in dread seriousness, doing cockamamie rituals and constantly
beating up themselves and others. Life is a joke. There is no purpose, so everyone is free to create his or
her own, making it as amusing, joyous and scrupulous as possible.

The part left out of the Bible is that on the sixth day, just before midnight, God made trolls.

[Elind]

Originally posted by DaveMc
No, you've got me pegged wrong. I'm not a religious zealot, I'm actually an atheist. Why do you think I joined this forum? Not many places for atheists in this world. 90% of Americans believe in a deity. Sad, isn't it? I was raised a Catholic and went to parochial school and actually learned what a fraud religion is. The catholic church is not interested in the almighty god, just the almighty dollar.

I just feel that abortion on demand is wrong. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility. I think that if a woman wants to go for a romp between the sheets, she should take responsibility if she gets pregnant, and not say "Ah, let's just kill it". Ok, that's a harsh way to put it, but the aborted fetus pictures that I linked to in previous posts actually show the real harshness of her abortion decision.

I actually am in favor of abortion if the mother's life is in danger. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I wasn't. I just think that a woman should not be able to get an abortion for any ole reason. Keep your legs together until you're sure that you want a child or have the child and give it up for adoption. Many childless loving couples out there who would thank you for the rest of their lives for giving them the gift of a child. It's the ultimate gift you could give to anyone.

Sorry for the assumption.

This started with the guy who talks to god all the time, and one gets into ruts too easily; and your pictures obviously had the effect you wanted, but it doesn't change the realities which are often not as simple as you describe, about keeping legs together.

If we had a world where our society taught unashamedly about sex and made contraception easily available (it's not to many) and held men equally responsible for pregnancy, and allowed available options like over the counter "day after" pills, and in general made unwanted pregnancy a true exceptional situation, then I at least might be more inclined to your views. Note that other countries have far far less "unwanted" pregnancies than the US does.

However that is not where we are, and mostly these matters are addressed in a completely opposite manner by our schools, churches and republican legislatures (same as church).

If we say we own a woman's body and life to the extent that we force them to carry to term, then why can we not also tell the worst offenders that they must be sterilized, or forced to have implant contraceptives?

I know the answer; It's a slippery slope.

So, in the meantime we have a difficult judgement to make, but it still involves a real human being versus a potential human being.

However unsettling your images might be, I will vote for the sentient human first, and debate the merits of their responsibility, or lack of, second.

[ScrollMaker]

Originally posted by DaveMc
You need to get an education about abortion. You call them zygotes? Go to these web pages and tell me they are "zygotes".

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/monica/mm2.htm

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/index.htm#thumbnails

I pity you for your poor education on this subject.

Those are not zygotes. Those are third trimester fetuses that were aborted. The first trimester is considered a zygote, the second and third are considered fetuses, and when the woman gives birth it is a baby. In most cases third trimester abortions are illegal and in some cases second trimester abortions. I pity you for your poor education on this subject. All you can seem to do is post pictures from propaganda websites.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by DaveMc
No, you've got me pegged wrong. I'm not a religious zealot, I'm actually an atheist. Why do you think I joined this forum? Not many places for atheists in this world. 90% of Americans believe in a deity. Sad, isn't it? I was raised a Catholic and went to parochial school and actually learned what a fraud religion is. The catholic church is not interested in the almighty god, just the almighty dollar.

I just feel that abortion on demand is wrong. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility. I think that if a woman wants to go for a romp between the sheets, she should take responsibility if she gets pregnant, and not say "Ah, let's just kill it". Ok, that's a harsh way to put it, but the aborted fetus pictures that I linked to in previous posts actually show the real harshness of her abortion decision.

I actually am in favor of abortion if the mother's life is in danger. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I wasn't. I just think that a woman should not be able to get an abortion for any ole reason. Keep your legs together until you're sure that you want a child or have the child and give it up for adoption. Many childless loving couples out there who would thank you for the rest of their lives for giving them the gift of a child. It's the ultimate gift you could give to anyone.

Does this "personal responsibility" thing (with which I agree to a great degree) mean that, on the other hand, an abortion in cases of rape is justified?

[Elind]

Originally posted by ScrollMaker
Those are not zygotes. Those are third trimester fetuses that were aborted. The first trimester is considered a zygote, the second and third are considered fetuses, and when the woman gives birth it is a baby. In most cases third trimester abortions are illegal and in some cases second trimester abortions. I pity you for your poor education on this subject. All you can seem to do is post pictures from propaganda websites.

Thanks. I suspected as much much have been too lazy to research.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by DaveMc
No, you've got me pegged wrong. I'm not a religious zealot, I'm actually an atheist. Why do you think I joined this forum? Not many places for atheists in this world. 90% of Americans believe in a deity. Sad, isn't it? I was raised a Catholic and went to parochial school and actually learned what a fraud religion is. The catholic church is not interested in the almighty god, just the almighty dollar.

I just feel that abortion on demand is wrong. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility. I think that if a woman wants to go for a romp between the sheets, she should take responsibility if she gets pregnant, and not say "Ah, let's just kill it". Ok, that's a harsh way to put it, but the aborted fetus pictures that I linked to in previous posts actually show the real harshness of her abortion decision.

I actually am in favor of abortion if the mother's life is in danger. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I wasn't. I just think that a woman should not be able to get an abortion for any ole reason. Keep your legs together until you're sure that you want a child or have the child and give it up for adoption. Many childless loving couples out there who would thank you for the rest of their lives for giving them the gift of a child. It's the ultimate gift you could give to anyone.

That's what birth-control is for and I don't want to hear any abortificant bull-****.

[evildave]

Originally posted by DaveMc
Please read the posts more closely next time. I said "all women across the U.S. have millions of abortions". I think I even boldfaced the word "ALL" . Whew! How could you interpret it any other way?

I dunno, how could someone interpret a bible passage 'any other way'?

http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/p20-543rv.pdf

In 2000, there were 60,873,000 aged between 15 and 44 years old.

That's 730,476,000 possible pregnancies in a year, assuming 100% of those women are fertile. (They're not.)

That's 2,001,304 possible pregnancies each day, assuming every single woman who might be fertile got knocked up at every opportunity, and then got an abortion every single time. (They don't.)

So there couldn't be millions of abortions "at any time", because the only way that multiple millions of women could have an abortion at one time would be if ALL possible women got knocked up and tried to have an abortion at the same time.

Even given the topic's "1,300,000 abortions" figure (uncited), that's about 148~150 abortions every hour. Hardly "millions of abortions" at any given time.

Let's have a look at that figure...

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/surv_abort.htm
In 2000, 857,475 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC. This total represents a .5 percent decrease from the 861,789 abortions reported in 1999. When the same 48 reporting areas are compared to the total number of abortions, the total dropped 1.3 percent between 1999 and 2000. The abortion ratio for 2000 has approximately returned to the levels reported in 1974. The ratio was 246 legal induced abortions per 1,000 live births, compared to 256 in 1999. The abortion rate was 16 per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years. For 1997 through 1999, the abortion rate was 17 per 1,000 women in this age range. As in the past, a higher number of abortions were obtained by white women, unmarried women, and women less than 25 years of age. More than half (58%) of the reported legal induced abortions were performed during the first 8 weeks of gestation; 88% were performed within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Source: MMWR, November 28, 2003/Vol.52/No.SS-12.

So, there were LESS than a million abortions in 1999 and 2000, so even the "1.3 million" figure was inflated by half a million. The number of (LEGAL) abortions hasn't been that high since 1993 - over ten years ago!

[DaveMc]

Originally posted by ScrollMaker
Those are not zygotes. Those are third trimester fetuses that were aborted. The first trimester is considered a zygote, the second and third are considered fetuses, and when the woman gives birth it is a baby. In most cases third trimester abortions are illegal and in some cases second trimester abortions. I pity you for your poor education on this subject.

Are you not reading the captions that are with the pictures? Those fetuses were 5 and 6 months. That's not 3rd trimester. As a father of four and a friend of someone who had a premature baby 2 months early, I can assure you with personal experience that those little guys were nowhere near 7 months gestation.

All you can seem to do is post pictures from propaganda websites.

Truth hurts, don't it!

[Elind]

Originally posted by DaveMc
Are you not reading the captions that are with the pictures? Those fetuses were 5 and 6 months. That's not 3rd trimester. As a father of four and a friend of someone who had a premature baby 2 months early, I can assure you with personal experience that those little guys were nowhere near 7 months gestation.



Is this a relevant point? Firstly no one can rely on the captions from an antiabortion website as truthful. They lie in the name of god, which is OK.

Secondly 6 months can be 1 day short of third trimester and 5 months is 2 thirds into the second.

The point is that except for serious health reasons, abortions past the 1st trimester are not "on demand" and most people will agree that they should not be.

Seems to me that this picture argument is dishonest with regard to the real issues, at best.

[Zep]

Originally posted by DaveMc
I will only disgust you with two more pictures. I hope that James Randi does not pull this post since he is a proponent of the truth getting out and of critical thinking. Here's two more of your "zygotes".

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/abort10.jpg

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/abort11.jpg

I am sorry to expose you to these images, but this is the truth of what we are dealing with. Please prove that these are not natural miscarriages.

In fact, the first picture is probably wrongly captioned for a number of reasons: (1) saline solution is not used to force abortions, (2) judging by size, the foetus is probably more than 4.5 months old, and (3) the "burns" are more likely necrosis from it being dead in the womb for a time - this is far more likely a to have been stillbirth than an abortion.

The second is also more likely a stillbirth, and it is a fairly advanced stage of development. As I understand it, it is not always possible to tell if a foetus has been deliberately aborted or if it was a stillbirth requiring surgical removal.

DaveMc, please make VERY sure of your sources before you use them: Such sites as you referenced are highly notorious for complete misrepresentation of facts, including the images. They prey on vulnerable and accepting people using highly evocative propaganda such as these images. They are the lowest of the low in a group of low slime-crawlers. They are scum.

[DaveMc]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elind
Sorry for the assumption.

This started with the guy who talks to god all the time, and one gets into ruts too easily; and your pictures obviously had the effect you wanted, but it doesn't change the realities which are often not as simple as you describe, about keeping legs together.

If we had a world where our society taught unashamedly about sex and made contraception easily available (it's not to many) and held men equally responsible for pregnancy, and allowed available options like over the counter "day after" pills, and in general made unwanted pregnancy a true exceptional situation, then I at least might be more inclined to your views. Note that other countries have far far less "unwanted" pregnancies than the US does.

I agree with the fact that RU486 should be made available for women who had a weak moment and had that "romp". The other countries you mentioned? You could be right. But those countries might not, and probably do not, have the decadence that is shown on TV these last few years. Heck, for many years one of the top rated shows on the BBC was billiards! Janet Jackson's Super Bowl peep show is a just a mild example. I actually think that all this Hollywood concentration on sex helped Bush win the election.

If we say we own a woman's body and life to the extent that we force them to carry to term, then why can we not also tell the worst offenders that they must be sterilized, or forced to have implant contraceptives?

It's not a matter of "forcing to term", it's a matter of not mangling a fetus. If we have laws against mangling a dog, cat, bank teller, convienence store clerk, we can sure have laws that protect the fetus as well.

So, in the meantime we have a difficult judgement to make, but it still involves a real human being versus a potential human being. However unsettling your images might be, I will vote for the sentient human first, and debate the merits of their responsibility, or lack of, second.

I am always reminded of two different bumper stickers that I see on cars. One says "Keep your laws off of my body". The other says "It's a child, not a choice". I vote for the child, except in cases of rape, incest and life of the mother. Sadly, I think that if the rape exception was allowed, you would see a dramatic rise in reported (false) rape cases. And the "life of the mother" doesn't include symptoms such as stress or headaches.

[DaveMc]

Originally posted by evildave
In 2000, there were 60,873,000 aged between 15 and 44 years old.

That's 730,476,000 possible pregnancies in a year, assuming 100% of those women are fertile. (They're not.)

That's 2,001,304 possible pregnancies each day, assuming every single woman who might be fertile got knocked up at every opportunity, and then got an abortion every single time. (They don't.)

So there couldn't be millions of abortions "at any time", because the only way that multiple millions of women could have an abortion at one time would be if ALL possible women got knocked up and tried to have an abortion at the same time.

Even given the topic's "1,300,000 abortions" figure (uncited), that's about 148~150 abortions every hour. Hardly "millions of abortions" at any given time.

Let's have a look at that figure...

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/surv_abort.htm


So, there were LESS than a million abortions in 1999 and 2000, so even the "1.3 million" figure was inflated by half a million. The number of (LEGAL) abortions hasn't been that high since 1993 - over ten years ago!

You are overly relying on "reported" abortions. And you are relying on census figures. Illegal and undocumented aliens arn't counted in census figures. One thing is for sure, and that is the problem we face with the solvency of Social Security would be greatly alleviated if the millions of legal abortions weren't performed since Roe v. Wade. Interesting that a social program invented by the liberals has been undermined by the liberals.

[Elind]

Originally posted by DaveMc
One thing is for sure, and that is the problem we face with the solvency of Social Security would be greatly alleviated if the millions of legal abortions weren't performed since Roe v. Wade.

Pretend I'm stupid, and explain the math here, please.

[DaveMc]

Originally posted by Zep
Please prove that these are not natural miscarriages.

In fact, the first picture is probably wrongly captioned for a number of reasons: (1) saline solution is not used to force abortions, (2) judging by size, the foetus is probably more than 4.5 months old, and (3) the "burns" are more likely necrosis from it being dead in the womb for a time - this is far more likely a to have been stillbirth than an abortion.

The second is also more likely a stillbirth, and it is a fairly advanced stage of development. As I understand it, it is not always possible to tell if a foetus has been deliberately aborted or if it was a stillbirth requiring surgical removal.

DaveMc, please make VERY sure of your sources before you use them: Such sites as you referenced are highly notorious for complete misrepresentation of facts, including the images. They prey on vulnerable and accepting people using highly evocative propaganda such as these images. They are the lowest of the low in a group of low slime-crawlers. They are scum.

The original argument a previous poster made was the "zygote" and "protoplasm". I think I sucessfully disproved that fallacy. The caption said that the abortions were in 1980. Perhaps saline was used back then, I don't know. You could be right. Are you an abortion expert? And calling someone "slime-crawlers" should be better referred to the person who mangled the fetus in the first place. I think the website is quite definitive in displaying aborted fetuses in various stages of gestation. Start at the homepage and you'll see that they are fair with the pictures beginning with the "zygote" stage. Could they be displaying stillborns as abortions? Absolutely! Religious people stretch and invent the so-called "truth" all the time. But to deny the existence of late-term abortions and partial birth abortions is just deluding yourself.

[DaveMc]

Originally posted by Elind
Pretend I'm stupid, and explain the math here, please.

Well, it's been estimated that there have been 40 million abortions since Roe v. Wade (source, CDC and Planned parenthood). That's a major workforce that could be contributing to the social security tax base. Now, the liberals counter-argument is to say that a good number of those aborted future citizens (they use 25%, (10 million)which is a joke) would also be sucking up social services such as Medicaid and education expenses because the mother wouldn't care for the unwanted child, so that erodes from the tax base. That ignores the adoption option that the mother has. And they ignore the fact that Social security is a pay-as-you go seperate tax system, and try to obfuscate and meld income tax revenue sources to pay for services and social security tax withdrawls from paychecks. Could the income tax rate have to rise to pay for these supposed additional services? Doubtful. Income tax rates have been on a long term decline well before Roe v. Wade. Capitalism as a whole makes everyone wealthier. Our supposed poor would actually be middle-class in a number of european countries.

But, getting back to "zygotes" and other relevant factual data, let's go to...

http://www.justfacts.com/abortion.htm

[DaveMc]

Another interesting website.

http://www.thinkaboutitonline.com/us/a0000065.cfm

[Elind]

Originally posted by DaveMc
Well, it's been estimated that there have been 40 million abortions since Roe v. Wade (source, CDC and Planned parenthood). That's a major workforce that could be contributing to the social security tax base. Now, the liberals counter-argument is to say that a good number of those aborted future citizens (they use 25%, (10 million)which is a joke) would also be sucking up social services such as Medicaid and education expenses because the mother wouldn't care for the unwanted child, so that erodes from the tax base. That ignores the adoption option that the mother has. And they ignore the fact that Social security is a pay-as-you go seperate tax system, and try to obfuscate and meld income tax revenue sources to pay for services and social security tax withdrawls from paychecks. Could the income tax rate have to rise to pay for these supposed additional services? Doubtful. Income tax rates have been on a long term decline well before Roe v. Wade. Capitalism as a whole makes everyone wealthier. Our supposed poor would actually be middle-class in a number of european countries.




So, aside from the mumbo jumbo and rampant speculation, the key point is that the more of us there are, the richer we become individually? Population growth is what we need to strive for above all if we want a better future for our children?

I don't think so, nor do I think it is relevant to abortion positions.

[DaveMc]

Originally posted by Elind
So, aside from the mumbo jumbo and rampant speculation, the key point is that the more of us there are, the richer we become individually? Population growth is what we need to strive for above all if we want a better future for our children?

I don't think so, nor do I think it is relevant to abortion positions.

No, you missed the point, again. The more of a younger class (less abortions) of citizens born since 1973,(Roe v. wade) the more secure the retirement benefits of the elderly class via Social Security.

[SezMe]

Which, of course, is really stupid short-range thinking. And how about THAT generations security. And so on. Any policy that relies on endless growth is sure to fail.

Social security is a ponzi scheme, which is why it needs to be fixed sooner or later. But making the problem worse with more growth is silly.

Finally, this is the lamest argument regarding abortion I have ever heard.

[Elind]

Originally posted by DaveMc
No, you missed the point, again. The more of a younger class (less abortions) of citizens born since 1973,(Roe v. wade) the more secure the retirement benefits of the elderly class via Social Security.

I didn't miss your point; I, again, disagree with it and your simplifications. As stated by SezMe, it's a ponzi scheme, unless the balances are correct in many dimensions.

[Kopji]

We should work to promote a society and culture where life is encouraged and respected. A potential human being should have a high value. Abortions can gradually erode a culture by discouraging respect for human life. I would agree with all those things. But I cannot argue all abortion is murder on that basis.

To be consistent and call abortion "murder" we'd need to begin with conception. Even with the awful images of abortions posted, it is inconsistent to claim that a third trimester abortion is somehow any more horrible than using a 'morning after' pill. Killing a tiny impregnated egg must be consided just as awful a crime. After all, if we worry of ending a potential life it begins at conception.

To be even more "consistent", we are left with the stark logic of the opening post: Hey, Why get upset at a few thousand innocent deaths in Iraq when we have millions of murders going on right here?

We would also need to say that all soldiers who kill in wartime are all murderers, or the death penalty is always murder, or euthansia is always murder. When I failed to do something that would save a starving child in Africa - that was murder too. We are all murderers, if by no other reason than by omission of the good we could have done.

We define 'what is murder' to fit the needs of society. We cannot say abortion is always murder and be meaningful in the use of the word.

A religious claim might be that WE do not define murder, but GOD does. But by definition whatever God does is moral, so if our God demanded we kill, that would not be murder. Think on this claim and the implications.

Abortions are a symptom of a flawed society that encourages lack of responsibility for our actions. Abortions are not the actual disease.

Encourage taking responsibility for our actions and the needs of society will gradually change.

[evildave]

Originally posted by DaveMc
You are overly relying on "reported" abortions. And you are relying on census figures. Illegal and undocumented aliens arn't counted in census figures. One thing is for sure, and that is the problem we face with the solvency of Social Security would be greatly alleviated if the millions of legal abortions weren't performed since Roe v. Wade. Interesting that a social program invented by the liberals has been undermined by the liberals.

So, what you're saying is the CDC is lying, and that 1/3 of all U.S. residents are illegal aliens who have undocumented abortions as well?

Or is it that there are billions of illegal immigrants living in the U.S., and that makes your made-up 'millions of abortions all the time' numbers right?

[1inChrist]

It's clearly obvious liberals have NO justification for slaughtering millions of babies.

You liberals seriously need Jesus in your life if you think taking the lives of millions of babies is acceptable.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by 1inChrist
The eternal Hellfire is NOT a joke.

Somebody in Dundee put it out yesterday with a bottle of Highland spring mineral water.

[calibos]

Originally posted by 1inChrist
It's clearly obvious liberals have NO justification for slaughtering millions of babies.

You liberals seriously need Jesus in your life if you think taking the lives of millions of babies is acceptable.

Is this in any way like your own statement in an old thread which basically said "I need Jesus in my life because if I didn't have him in my life I'd go around killing, raping and stealing....sure-why not? Might as well have some fun"? After you say something like that I really have trouble with the idea of deferring to someone like you on moral issues.

Come to think of it, even with Jesus in your life you've admitted you'd carry out a 9/11 style atrocity if you believed it was Gods commandment. Sorry 1inChrist I just can't take you seriously. Theres a great irony, apparently lost on you, about a guy who makes these kinds of admissions and then tries to prop himself up as an authority on morality, condemning things like abortion and terrorism committed by other religious fanatics (who, guess what, also believe they are carrying out God's will - sound familiar?).

I hope the above wasn't too complicated for you to read. I know I used plain text all in black and in regular font size without any mention of satan and hellfire but please try to bear with it.