Instincts, crossing into the paranormal?

[Stereolab]

Last year an injured pigeon started hanging around my office building, because people would always give it food. My co-worker wound up taking the bird to her home--60 miles away--to help nurse it back to health, and then a few weeks later, she let it go in her neighborhood.

The pigeon showed up back at the office building--again, 60 miles away--a few days later.

I'm not telling this story to try and win a million dollars for a pigeon, nor do I think this is all that unusual of an occurence. Pigeons just have superior homing instincts. But, isn't it amazing? A two-year-old bird with a little pea brain can find its way back to his "home." It's because of "instinct." But how does "instinct" really work? How can animals, with much intelligence and much smaller brains than humans have, have instincts so much sharper than humans'? I know it's because of survival of the fittest and all that...but...HOW?

I guess what I'm getting at is, is there a point at which instinct would become "paranormal"? Do we have instincts that we can't tap into because our normal thought processes shut them out? Are there people that really do have powerful, reliable instincts? And could someone develop the instinct to read minds or something?

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by Stereolab
I guess what I'm getting at is, is there a point at which instinct would become "paranormal"? Do we have instincts that we can't tap into because our normal thought processes shut them out? Are there people that really do have powerful, reliable instincts? And could someone develop the instinct to read minds or something?

It might get to the point where someone could anticipate answers or reactions from someone (who hasn't done that to some degree anyway?), but I don't think it could get much farther than that.

[Dancing David]

Hi Stereolab!

Interestin question, there is a nature to being that I consider to be amazing if mostly biological. There are a number of different things that get labeled as instincts but I haven't seen any reason to believe they are paranormal.
Stereotypic behaviors are behaviors that are considered to have a hard wired compenent in the brain. Then there are the complex set of emotions and physiological responses that we often call instincts. Finally there are sets of learned bahaviors that we call 'our gut instinct'.

I think that some of the things that our bodies can do are very amazing and I also feel that paranormal powers would have tremendous evolutionary benefit. So if there are paranormal pwoers possesed by organic brains I would assume that they are widespread in the population.

[Psiload]

I'd say it's more of an ability than an instinct. And I don't think you can necessarily equate abilities with intelligence.

Take my little brother... please. (har har)

He has the amazing ability to climb sheer cliff walls, but he lacks the intelligence to use a safety harness.

[The Cats Venm]

Originally posted by Stereolab
How can animals, with much intelligence and much smaller brains than humans have, have instincts so much sharper than humans'? I know it's because of survival of the fittest and all that...but...HOW?


There are many animals that have more refined senses than humans just as they also have less refined ones. Humans simply have a particular set that works for us and we have gotten used too.

What we generally think of as intelligence (where humans excel) is very different from instinct and the senses.

[rppa]

Originally posted by Stereolab
Do we have instincts that we can't tap into because our normal thought processes shut them out? Are there people that really do have powerful, reliable instincts?

Absolutely, to both questions. The classic example for me is a warning I've heard many times from cops: If your instincts tell you there's something wrong with a given situation (walking down a certain street, entering your house, etc), they're probably right. Even if you can't come up with a conscious reason why you should be nervous.

Reason your way into entering the situation anyway, and you get into trouble.

Are there people who have developed this? Sure, it's probably a survival trait for soldiers and cops.

And could someone develop the instinct to read minds or something?

Well, "good" psychics can get stunningly good instincts for cold readings, but I don't think that's what you mean.

What I'm talking about is your mind picking up on tiny sensory clues that haven't risen to the level of conscious attention. But it's not ESP, the sensory clues really are there.

[Stereolab]

Originally posted by rppa
Well, "good" psychics can get stunningly good instincts for cold readings, but I don't think that's what you mean.

What I'm talking about is your mind picking up on tiny sensory clues that haven't risen to the level of conscious attention. But it's not ESP, the sensory clues really are there. [/B]

I have no doubt that that's true, but no, that's not what I mean.

I just think it's weird that birds are born knowing how to fly in perfect formation and knowing how to get around with pinpoint accuracy. Maybe their senses are better than ours--I don't know--but this ability/instinct type stuff would take much more than good senses, right? And we have no reason to believe birds have any amazing memory or cognitive abilities. So what is it?

I am no animal expert, and maybe I just don't "get" it, but to me the instincts of animals are really amazing. Birds have little tiny pea brains...you would think they'd go around crashing into buildings, or they'd forget to migrate. But they never do.

I feel like there would be some way that, if a person somehow had an amazing degree of instinct, it could be considered "paranormal."

[Aussie Thinker]

Stereo,

Pigeons homing instinct is impressive and still not totally explained by science.

All sorts of things have been raised, magnetic senses, smell,

So it is a darn good example to raise.. do we humans have some instinct that may turn out to be mundane .. but is currently inexplicable ?

I would reverse the argument.

Has the homing instinct for pigeons gotten worse or better. In evolutionary terms it is good for survival so has gotten Better and better.

Has psychic power improved ?

We see tangible evidence for pigeons being able to find their way home we see NONE .. for any human paranormal instinct ?

In short if this paranormal instinct existed it WOULD be obvious by now.

[Jeff Corey]

Pigeons apparently use the angle of the sun and a magnetic sense to navigate. Possibly low frequency sound waves too. A 1997 homing pigeon event in Europe had a very low return rate after a Concorde passed over the bulk of the released birds.

[Jyera]

Bird brains could be small in size but very complicated.
Just like a computer chip.

On the other hand, it could be simple.
Simple things can be amazing, and look seemingly complicated.

Some times the simpler the better.
If I know only 2 things in my brain. If would be extremely simple for me to remember it. And you would be amazed how I couldn't forget it. (Or you could say I'm stubborn)

Eg. I ate food which I enjoyed.
I remember a GPS position where this experience is associated with. If I'm a simpleton who seek to repeat my enjoying experience, I would seek it out.

A simple robotic bird with a GPS (global positional system) would try to fly back to the "food heaven".

So I think instinct need not be very complicated.

[Jyera]

Let try to answer...
(1) is there a point at which instinct would become "paranormal"?
Depends on your definition of instinct and paranormal.
I would like to define it such that I can say "yes".

(2) Do we have instincts that we can't tap into because our normal thought processes shut them out?
Yes.

(3) Are there people that really do have powerful, reliable instincts?
Yes, eg. a lion have a very powerful instinct to eat other animals. So I don't see why people cannot have strong instinct.
Powerful and reliable are relative terms.

(4) And could someone develop the instinct to read minds or something?
Read minds, in my opinion "Yes" and "No".
Something ??

[Aussie Thinker]

Jyera,

(4) And could someone develop the instinct to read minds or something?
Read minds, in my opinion "Yes" and "No".
Something ??

I would have to say an almost definite NO..

You would have to have something that exists in nature already as a “receiver�…

[The Don]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
Pigeons apparently use the angle of the sun and a magnetic sense to navigate. Possibly low frequency sound waves too. A 1997 homing pigeon event in Europe had a very low return rate after a Concorde passed over the bulk of the released birds.
Are they sure that this wasn't just a rotisserie effect ?

WHOOOOOOOSH.........thub......thub.....thub...

[Operaider]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Jyera,

I would have to say an almost definite NO..

You would have to have something that exists in nature already as a “receiver�… I agree,
Perhaps if it were shown that animals possessed psychic powers. Then I'd find it possible that humans possess it too, but to a lesser extent do to the higher brain activity interfering. But as far as I know, I've yet to see any animal do anything that couldn't be explained by their heightened sense of smell and hearing.

If an elk could somehow know that it's being stalked by a lion without possibly being able to hear, smell, or see it coming it would be a good step forward in proving paranormal ability. Though I'm pretty sure scientists who specialize in animal behavior would have noticed something by now

[Stitch]

Originally posted by rppa
Absolutely, to both questions. The classic example for me is a warning I've heard many times from cops: If your instincts tell you there's something wrong with a given situation (walking down a certain street, entering your house, etc), they're probably right. Even if you can't come up with a conscious reason why you should be nervous.

Reason your way into entering the situation anyway, and you get into trouble.

Are there people who have developed this? Sure, it's probably a survival trait for soldiers and cops.


I am not sure about your example. Police officers and soldiers deal with high risk situations which will put them in a hightend state of alert anyway. After the event if something "bad" happens they may well attribute the adrenaline etc to some highly honed instinct. However, how many other situations occur when they have the adrenaline increase before but nothing happens? This sounds a bit like counting the hits and forgetting the misses to me. Has any research been done in to this??

[Operaider]

Originally posted by Stitch
I am not sure about your example. Police officers and soldiers deal with high risk situations which will put them in a hightend state of alert anyway. After the event if something "bad" happens they may well attribute the adrenaline etc to some highly honed instinct. However, how many other situations occur when they have the adrenaline increase before but nothing happens? This sounds a bit like counting the hits and forgetting the misses to me. Has any research been done in to this?? Don't forget they are vigorously trained.
After years of martial arts training I would throw punches, kicks, and blocks while fighting without ever thinking.
I don't know if I'd consider this instinct, but it is possible to do something enough that it almost happens without thought.
Example: When you first learn to ride a bike, doing simple things like maintaining balance, peddling, and steering can be very difficult. After much practice they are done without even consideration.
I don't think that it's instinct, but it might be something close.

[rppa]

Originally posted by Stitch
I am not sure about your example. Police officers and soldiers deal with high risk situations which will put them in a hightend state of alert anyway. After the event if something "bad" happens they may well attribute the adrenaline etc to some highly honed instinct. However, how many other situations occur when they have the adrenaline increase before but nothing happens? This sounds a bit like counting the hits and forgetting the misses to me. Has any research been done in to this??

Excellent points, and I have to say I've been caught in fuzzy reasoning here. All I know is that police departments commonly believe that we as untrained individuals should trust our own instincts. The latest example I've seen of this is an ad campaign on my commute, on the New Jersey PATCO system. There is a series of posters which says little more than "We need your help. If your instincts tell you something isn't right, report it." Another place I've commonly seen this is in crime-prevention brochures, particularly those aimed at women's safety.

So what I know is that the police believe implicitly that every human has instincts which will recognize danger long before the conscious mind does. I always assumed this was experience-based, and it probably is. What I don't know is what the hit/miss ratio is, and probably neither do they. How do you measure the misses?

[JMA]

Originally posted by Operaider But as far as I know, I've yet to see any animal do anything that couldn't be explained by their heightened sense of smell and hearing.

Have you read Rupertl Sheldrake experiments with animals?

[The Don]

Originally posted by JMA
Have you read Rupertl Sheldrake experiments with animals?
Have you read the assessment of his methods ?

http://skepdic.com/morphicres.html

[Starrman]

How do you know it was the same pidgeon?

[JPK]

Here is something interesting about birds.

Satellites Show that Carrier Pigeons Follow Highways (http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/2004/07/28.html)


or here
Highways Help Pigeons Find Their Way Home (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=0005B9CA-5D13-1105-9D1383414B7F0000)

JPK

[Stereolab]

How do you know it was the same pidgeon?

His injury was still visible, and his personality was still the same (no other bird around the office had ever been so friendly). But really, I'm sure that kind of thing happens all the time...the homing ability of some birds is well known...I wasn't trying to say this occurence was anything extraordinary.

[nbenami]

I am no animal expert, and maybe I just don't "get" it, but to me the instincts of animals are really amazing. Birds have little tiny pea brains...you would think they'd go around crashing into buildings, or they'd forget to migrate. But they never do.

I think the above misconception shows the fundamental problem here. A "pea size" brain is actually quite huge, especially in relation to the size of the bird. Think about what termites or bees can do with even smaller cognitive systems - they can swarm, communicate, and execute complex sequences of behavior.

Now, its been shown that at least in bees genes control a lot of these behaviors - turn off one gene, and you turn off one part of some behavior.

Heck, even viruses, which aren't even considered alive, engage in very complex behaviors.

I just read a really good analogy in a book: A single cell contains as many parts as a Boeing 777. Given this insane level of complexity at even the cellular level, it is utterly unnecessary to posit any sort of paranormal effect as an explanation or even a component of what pigeons do.

[Stereolab]

I don't think there is anything "paranormal" about what birds do. But using magnetic fields to navigate? That might be a solid scientific explanation, but it's also pretty amazing stuff.

So, theoretically, what if someone was dowsing by way of magnetic fields? Or reading minds by picking up another person's brain waves?

Couldn't that kind of stuff win the million dollar challenge? And, are those theoretical abilities really all that far from what birds do with their little pea brains?

[Xeriar]

Originally posted by Stereolab
Do we have instincts that we can't tap into because our normal thought processes shut them out? Are there people that really do have powerful, reliable instincts? And could someone develop the instinct to read minds or something?

Walking is one example - we are born with the instinctual capacity to walk, just like any other animal, even if we lack the physical ability. We forcibly forget and re-learn, because often times instincts are not optimal means.

Empathy can get to apparent mind-reading at times. I've been known to answer questions before they are asked. That's nothing more than analyzing a variety of factors - word choice, history of interaction, facial features, hand movements, vocal inflection and understandings involving human nature all give away a part of what you are thinking.

It can certainly be very impressive but it's not paranormal.


So, theoretically, what if someone was dowsing by way of magnetic fields? Or reading minds by picking up another person's brain waves?


Supposedly we have the genes for sensing magnetic waves, but they have long since been deactivated. I don't think it'd be very useful for dowsing though (at least for non ferromagnetic substances), much less mind reading.

[Dragon]

Originally posted by Stereolab
I don't think there is anything "paranormal" about what birds do. But using magnetic fields to navigate? That might be a solid scientific explanation, but it's also pretty amazing stuff.

So, theoretically, what if someone was dowsing by way of magnetic fields? Or reading minds by picking up another person's brain waves?

Couldn't that kind of stuff win the million dollar challenge? And, are those theoretical abilities really all that far from what birds do with their little pea brains? The difference is that the homing ability of pigeons can be conclusively demonstrated. Paranormal abilities such as dowsing or mind reading have no credible eveidence to support them.
You can speculate about mechanisms all you want, but it's pointless if there's no effect in the first place.

[thatguywhojuggles]

Just thought I would point out this article:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/afp/20041122/pigeons.html

[Stereolab]

Awww...I hope my little pigeon friend wasn't one of the ones getting their olfactory nerves cut and stuff.

But thanks for the info :)