Were Israelis warned to stay away from WTC prior to 9/11?

[renata]

Continuing discussion from another thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256) , per request of Scared Chicken



Scared Chicken edited the relevant posts, so I will have to go on what was kept in other's quotes and what he sent to me in the PM. In that thread, he explicitly gave me permission to publish this PM, I would not do so otherwise.

Summary of the argument- recreating by bits and pieces
Scared Chicken claimed Israelis were warned not to go to WTC prior to 9/11. As evidence, he said he spoke to an Israeli relative who worked at WTC, and who told him he was warned by Mossad not to go
posted by SC
I dont buy the cruise missile theory on the pentagon for a second, but I am thoroughly convinced intelligence agencies (American and Isreali) had knowledge of an attack on the WTC. People have been warned, including an Isreali relative of mine, that was warned two days prior to the attack to stay home on 9-11. He worked at the WTC. Feel free not to believe though.

He also said after the initial phone conversation, the relative stopped discussing this issue with him

To this I posted


Bullsh!t

http://slate.msn.com/id/116813/
www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hello, David Rosenberg? This is the Mossad. Listen, don't go to work on Tuesday. Yeah, another terrorist attack on the U.S. . . . call in sick. And remember, not a word to any of your gentile relatives, friends, or co-workers."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So your relative is a heartless criminal who was all too happy to have thousands die.

His name? The company he worked for? Names of the 4000 Israelis who all called in sick?


He did not respond to me, but did say

Thats okay.. I have tried getting this point across before, and I know basically no one even wants to consider the possibility its true. I guess I wouldnt either, and that is why I left it out of my original post. I shouldnt have brought it up, but its kinda hard to be quiet about it, since I surely didnt dream that phone conversation. oh well.. the day you'd see an actual UFO or some aliens having a BBQ in your garden, you'd know how I feel


I answered
This is the same conspiracy theory crap spouted by anyone with a pet theory. I did not believe in aliens either this until I saw the alien stick a probe in my nostril with my own eyes! And now I am pregnant with alien babies! Really! Why don't you believe me??? Why would I, an anonymous person on the internet make up a story like that! Are you calling me a liar???

Respond to my earlier post, please. I will repeat it here in case you forgot. Please provide the information requested and address the snopes article.

..
(I quoted my first post in its entirety)



The he send me this PM. After I told him I would not discuss this issue via PMs, and told him he is the one who brought this issue up, and he should provide the evidence, he suggested I open a new thread, and gave me permission to publish the PM


Well, if you must.. feel free to publish the contents of my pm if you post it a new thread. But I doubt it will get us anywhere, I dont have the proof your asking for, since I didnt tape my phone converstations. I've been through this drill more than once.

Here is the PM




>Respond to my earlier post, please. I will repeat it here in case
>you forgot. Please provide the information requested and
>address the snopes article.

I hope you dont mind if I respond through PM, for reasons stated in the thread.

>Bullsh!t
>
>http://slate.msn.com/id/116813/
>www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm

Im not sure how this refutes what I said. But if you want links, do a search on Odigo and WTC.

>So your relative is a heartless criminal who was all too happy to
>have thousands die.

You mean: why didnt he warn everyone ? I guess he didnt get a message saying "Bin Laden will send 2 passenger planes into the WTC on 9/11". If you got an anonymous mail saying something like like: "Dear friend, I strongly advice to remain at home on 9/11, and to pass this message to your Jewish friends and comrades", I doubt it would be very convincing but you could decide not to take the chance, forward it anyway and stay home while most of your friends/collegues would ignore it. But then, I dont know what it said, so your guess is as good as mine.

>His name? The company he worked for? Names of the 4000 >Israelis who all called in sick?

I dont know who you are, so even if I broke contact with him, surely you understand I wont give you his identity. I did report this story (with the name) to two US newsagencies 2 years ago, but I dont know if they ever investigated it. I've never seen any reports on it. But like you may have read before I deleted the posts, this person would not even repeat his statement to me when I asked him. He told me about the warning shortly after the catastrophy, but after that, he would insist it was nothing, a coincidence, and avoid the topic. So I doubt he'd be willing to talk to the media.

BTW, I dont blame you for not believing me; I wouldnt believe it either. But if just for a second you assume I am telling the truth, Im not sure what this would prove. In no way is this proof or indication of Israeli involvement in 9/11. Could just be the mossad had an idea/lead but no proof, (and I suppose informed the Americans) but without convincing intelligence, some individuals from eg Mossad decided to warn a few friends/relatives anyway. Just a hypothesis. I somehow doubt we will ever know.




I think suggesting that Israelis knew of 9/11 and only warned Jews is a horrible accusation. I believe it tests all reason. I think the snopes article did a good job discrediting it.. and yet there are still some who believe it.

I would appreciate comments on this issue.
Thanks

[ssibal]

Here is a better refutation than the snopes article:
http://www.nocturne.org/~terry/wtc_4000_Israeli.html

[a_unique_person]

scared chicken is a new poster, always a sign of a 'hit and run'.

you would have thought that someone else would have been able to verify the story by now.

there is, however, this thread, which from the ABC news.

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16132

if it was true and israel was busted, wouldn't that be the end of them? why take such a risk?

sharon is not the kind of guy to be ignorant of such an action, so that he has to be warned not to go there.

[Scared Chicken]

I think suggesting that Israelis knew of 9/11 and only warned Jews is a horrible accusation.

Where does it say that ? I never claimed that. I only tried to give an explication to what I witnessed. Didnt you read the "and I suppose informed the Americans" ? thanks for ignoring that.

For the sake of argument, lets assume I am not lying, and I head what I heard. A friend of mine got a warning. Thats all I know. I posed a hypothesis how this could be possible. one possibility is the mossad would have indications of something major happening on 9/11. They passed this info to the US authorities, but because of a lack of precise information or time this warning did not help prevent this catastrophy from happening. Sounds reasonable so far ? Antisemetic ?

Now, someone working in the WTC knew someone from the Mossad. this Mossad person might want to warn his friend anyway, even if there was no hard data/proof/whatever. mails get forwarded.. and there you have it.

All this is merely a hypothesis trying to explain what I heard. Now you can do 2 things:
1) disregard what I said as a lie or a fantasy. Fine.
2) provide a different explication.

But I'd appreciate you would not try to portait me as a antisemetic accusing the Jewish community of whatever monstreous conspiracy. Thanks for making that up, and pulling my statement WAY out of context. The context was and still is the PNAC. Thats a US organization, not an islamitic,nor Isreali group, okay ?

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken

All this is merely a hypothesis trying to explain what I heard. Now you can do 2 things:
1) disregard what I said as a lie or a fantasy. Fine.
2) provide a different explication.

Given that a very similar story has been examined and debunked as an urban legend, and given that you are anonymous, and given that your friend of a friend is anonymous, and given that you can't get any further information regarding the facts, and given that there is no way to corroborate what you've said....

I vote for #1.

[Scared Chicken]

Given that a very similar story has been examined and debunked as an urban legend

Are you referring to the "4000 Jews that stayed home" fairy tale, or the Odigo story ? From the latter, I have not heard any debunking, though I look for quite a while. If you have a link that shows that story is not true, I'd appreciate it if you could provide it.

I vote for #1.

Sure.. and so would I, which I was I tried to stop discussing this spin-off of the original thread which doesnt need any "debunking" as the document I refered to is simply available on the net, and no one is claiming it is fake. Much to my suprise, no one seems to be taking issue with it either though....

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by ssibal
Here is a better refutation than the snopes article:
http://www.nocturne.org/~terry/wtc_4000_Israeli.html

Thanks for the link. On that page I found another link to this story: http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/16/wcia16.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/09/16/ixhome.html

Which might even give some substance to my hypothesis.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken


Are you referring to the "4000 Jews that stayed home" fairy tale, or the Odigo story ? From the latter, I have not heard any debunking, though I look for quite a while. If you have a link that shows that story is not true, I'd appreciate it if you could provide it.



Sure.. and so would I, which I was I tried to stop discussing this spin-off of the original thread which doesnt need any "debunking" as the document I refered to is simply available on the net, and no one is claiming it is fake. Much to my suprise, no one seems to be taking issue with it either though....
actually I see 5 possibilities
1. you are lying
2. you are insane
3. your relative was lying to you.
4. your relative is insane
5. Mossad was running an international conspiracy to fly jets into the WTC and blame arabs. They then rang around all the jews at the WTC to tell them not to go to work.

In My opinion these would rank in the following order (based on probability) 3,1,4,2,5......

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by The Fool
actually I see 5 possibilities
1. you are lying
2. you are insane
3. your relative was lying to you.
4. your relative is insane
5. Mossad was running an international conspiracy to fly jets into the WTC and blame arabs. They then rang around all the jews at the WTC to tell them not to go to work.

Hmmm.. what happened to my explication.. the number 6 if you wish ? Seems more likely than your number 5.

[Reginald]

Originally posted by The Fool

actually I see 5 possibilities
1. you are lying
2. you are insane
3. your relative was lying to you.
4. your relative is insane
5. Mossad was running an international conspiracy to fly jets into the WTC and blame arabs. They then rang around all the jews at the WTC to tell them not to go to work.

In My opinion these would rank in the following order (based on probability) 3,1,4,2,5......

You forgot to add...

6) A relative who was a lying, insane, member of Mossad.

(Just DONT mention any UFO type shapes emerging from the building PLEASE!!!!!!!!)

[corplinx]

Where is the international jew registry with all the jews phone numbers to make it easy for Mossad to call them?

This conspiracy falls apart under a modicum of critical thought.

[Supercharts]

Actually it's the JEWS fault. It's ALWAYS the JEWS fault. Hell, the JEWS allowed Auchweitz to happen - part of the Jewish Master Plan.
Remember - the JEWS are the very best scapegoat for all of the world's problems.

The Jews also invented Disco. Eh? Well what about Barry Manilow? See!
[Gentile Bastards...]

(I wish there was a Smilie with a middle-finger)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken


Thanks for the link. On that page I found another link to this story: http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/16/wcia16.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/09/16/ixhome.html

Which might even give some substance to my hypothesis.
the only problem with that link is that the US is always going to be fed stories about terrorist attacks. if you don't know exactly how, when and where, you can't really do much to prevent it. America is a big place with millions of people and tens of thousands of possible targets. You can't lock the whole place down, without destroying the economy.

[a_unique_person]

http://www.nocturne.org/~terry/wtc_4000_Israeli.html#5

this link states that the 5 isrealis were there filming the event. of course, they were there after it started. as they were young, they were getting over excited. So UCE may have been stating he was cheering when it went down, but he also may have just been experiencing a rush of emotions like these israelis. If it was nothing else, it was spectacular. (please don't take this as a moral judgement, just an objective one.)

[renata]

Originally posted by ssibal
Here is a better refutation than the snopes article:
http://www.nocturne.org/~terry/wtc_4000_Israeli.html

Excellent analysis, thank you.

Originally posted by SC
Are you referring to the "4000 Jews that stayed home" fairy tale, or the Odigo story ? From the latter, I have not heard any debunking, though I look for quite a while. If you have a link that shows that story is not true, I'd appreciate it if you could provide it

If you read ssibal's link it debunks the Odigo story as well.

Originally posted by SC
But I'd appreciate you would not try to portait me as a antisemetic accusing the Jewish community of whatever monstreous conspiracy. Thanks for making that up, and pulling my statement WAY out of context.

Well, if you had not deleted all your posts on this subject (very bad form BTW) it would be in context.

Your statement was

Originally posted by SC
Could just be the mossad had an idea/lead but no proof, (and I suppose informed the Americans) but without convincing intelligence, some individuals from eg Mossad decided to warn a few friends/relatives anyway.



I do not think that my comment that suggesting that Mossad only warned Jews is taking your statement out of context. Or do you think your "relative" is the only Israeli who was warned?

Originally posted by SC
If you got an anonymous mail saying something like like: "Dear friend, I strongly advice to remain at home on 9/11, and to pass this message to your Jewish friends and comrades", I doubt it would be very convincing but you could decide not to take the chance, forward it anyway and stay home while most of your friends/collegues would ignore it.

If I got such an e-mail from a credible source (Mossad, say), I would forward it to local police, FBI, newspapers, and all the people I know. You see, I, for some reasons, do not think only Jewish lives are valuable.

If I felt it was a prank, I would show up to work. Under no circumstances would I fail to pass on a warning I took seriously. Suggestions that someone would do that, because they are Jewish is deeply insulting.

And on this note... http://www.clicksmilie.de/sammlung/sauer/angry-smiley-002.gif


This was for your sake, Supercharts! http://www.clicksmilie.de/sammlung/cool/cool-smiley-001.gif

[Questioninggeller]

I know this has been posted, but here it is again
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm

It's sad so many people hate other people, then they make up lies to perpuate the hate for others. All this hate, it's no wonder why narrow minded leaders get elected.


Since people will believe in anything, here's an article about Jews cooking with Muslim and Christian blood. From a Saudi paper:
http://www.snopes.com/religion/blood.htm

[Scared Chicken]

If I got such an e-mail from a credible source (Mossad, say), I would forward it to local police, FBI, newspapers, and all the people I know.

And if it came from a friend, non mossad email address obviously ? And if it would only say "I can not explain why, but I have good reason to believe it would be wise for you to stay at home on 9/11". Sure, forward it to the police.. what would they have done with it ?

You see, I, for some reasons, do not think only Jewish lives are valuable.

Pfff.. sure keep painting the antisemitic picture. Call me a Nazi while you are at it. One can almost not use the word Jew without being accused of antisemitism. Fine, so be it..


If I felt it was a prank, I would show up to work. Under no circumstances would I fail to pass on a warning I took seriously. Suggestions that someone would do that, because they are Jewish is deeply insulting.

HEEELLLLOOOOO ? Man, you are sick. Keep reading that Nazi propagano between my lines, yes, of course its there, isnt that obvious ? Keep acting like that, and maybe you will be right one day. I will start hating your people.

[Cleopatra]

What a lovely way to start your day! A nice cup of coffee, a Marlboro, clients waiting for you and an amusing reading!

Funny. Two days after 9/11 a Greek MP revealed that he read in Haaret'z that Jews were warned not to go to work that day...

Some people, like moi, can read in many languages. I jumped into the hebrew edition of Haaret'z and every Israeli newspaper that exists and what a shock... nothing was there...

No, no, this is a funny thread, so, I won't start mentioning stories that proove how many dirty Jews were among the victims...particularly about this bad Jew who chose to stay by a christian colleague of his that he was on a wheel chair, rather than run away and save himself...

Nahhh I won't bother!

In a singing voice CapelDodger, Sir, do you follow this thread?

[Scared Chicken]

you know, I am anything but an antisemite; I have several Jewish friends, and I find it disturbing and insulting I should defend myself against such accusations here. No where did I imply anything like that, nor did I mean to.

A normal discussion can not be held this way, because anything you say is being twisted around into some neo Nazi crap. Last year, I was in a hotel in Kenia with a bunch of friends and collegues when I ciritised the food, that was pretty terrible. It was. Instead of agreeing or diagreeing, I immediately got accused of saying that because the hotel owner was a Jew. Christ, as if I even knew that !

That sort of attitude sickens me, and is no better and just as fundamentalistic as these neo Nazi antisemites. Think about it.. this attitude doesnt help you make a lot friends.

[Scared Chicken]

Oh, and congratulations on speaking more than one language.. you're one of a kind. Living in a country with 3 national langues, I only speak or understand five. Surely that means I am brighter and thus everything I say is right. If not, its just because you hate my skincolour or religion.

[Cleopatra]

You know, you don't really need to apologize.

I was accused of been a racist for mentioning that Afganees are mostly farmers... go figure...

You have to admit my friend though, that there is not a single logical reason that dictates the necessity of analyzing, statistically, the % of the victims by Religion.

You know why? Because that way, you start attributing quality to a death...

Very dirty. Don't you agree?

edited to add I would be delighted to exchange opinions with a person who is brighter than me. It will make me a better person... Looking forward to your bright inputs.

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
You know, you don't really need to apologize.
I wasnt, and I didnt intend to.
You have to admit my friend though, that there is not a single logical reason that dictates the necessity of analyzing, statistically, the % of the victims by Religion.
What does this have to do with anything ? Who is analyzing ? Surely not me :confused:

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken
Who is analyzing ?

I used the verb analyze to flatter your superior intellect... maybe parroting was the appropriate word.

Surely not me

By Renata :"Scared Chicken claimed Israelis were warned not to go to WTC prior to 9/11."

Yes, you. Your suggestions attribute quality to a death. If you claim that some people died because they weren't jews, this is what you do.

[Scared Chicken]

Renata may have said that, but I havent. I only said a friend of mine has told me he had been warned. All the rest is speculation on Renata's part, and putting words in my mouth. Thanks for doing the same, over and over.

[renata]

You did say that! And then you deleted your posts, after I called you on it. Luckily, the PM and the portion quoted by someone else remained.

You clearly said that at least some Israelis, like your "relative" were warned prior to the 9/11 by Mossad, and did not go to work. Stop accusing me of Neo Nazi crap- you came to this forum with your theories, you stick by them. Claiming them, then deleting as if they did not exist will not get you out of this, especially since you did say. You wanted this thread, and now you are backpedaling so fast next thing you will claim Israeli citizenship.




Portion of a post you deleted. Do you even read what you posted? You say people (not one person) have been warned by intelligence agencies.

I am thoroughly convinced intelligence agencies (American and Isreali) had knowledge of an attack on the WTC. People have been warned, including an Isreali relative of mine, that was warned two days prior to the attack to stay home on 9-11. He worked at the WTC. Feel free not to believe though.


Your PM


did report this story (with the name) to two US newsagencies 2 years ago, but I dont know if they ever investigated it. I've never seen any reports on it. But like you may have read before I deleted the posts, this person would not even repeat his statement to me when I asked him.
...


Could just be the mossad had an idea/lead but no proof, (and I suppose informed the Americans) but without convincing intelligence, some individuals from eg Mossad decided to warn a few friends/relatives anyway. Just a hypothesis. I somehow doubt we will ever know.

Your "hypothesis" (when you already started backpedaling from your original, stronger claim) was that some individuals were warned by Mossad.

I am not the one making up ******** theories on imaginary evidence! I am not that one making claims of mysterious Mossad connected relatives! If it is just a speculation on my part, why did you report this to two newsagencies?

I have been on this forum for since the beginning. My credibility is set, one way or the other. You have been here a week. You already deleted posts after making a claim. I have salvaged a part of your post and your PM. Are you claiming I am making up your quotes? Forum members can see who really said what. If you think you can fool them or me with this juvenile BS, you are sadly mistaken.


Edited to correct the time I have been on JREF- made a mistake



Object lesson for Scared Chicken- The forum software records when posts are edited. Posters tend to post the reason they edited their posts (spelling, additions, mistakes) to explain that.

[Scared Chicken]

Why dont you learn how to read ?

You clearly said that at least some Israelis, like your "relative" were warned prior to the 9/11 by Mossad,


Stop twisting my words. I said my friend told me he had received a warning. He happens to be a Jew, yes. Then I said I believed some intelligence agencies had prior knowlegde, (but failed to use this knowledge to prevent it from happening). This is widely reported, and even if untrue, just my suspicion/believe. I never claimed "isreali's where warned by mossad". Please quote me on saying that as a statement. I suggested a possible explication when asked for, yes. And not some unreasonable antisemtic one claiming Isreal or the mossad was behind 9/11 as you want to me make me say.


Stop accusing me of Neo Nazi crap
THen stop putting words in my mouth, and reading what i didnt wrote.

You wanted this thread, and now you are backpedaling so fast next thing you will claim Israeli citizenship.
This is a useless waste of time. I didnt want this tread, you did. You wanted it to twist my words into making it sound like I claimed the Mossad knew all about 911, and warned all Jews, etc, etc.

You say people (not one person) have been warned by intelligence agencies.
For the last time, and after that I'll welcome you to my ignore list:
I NEVER SAID ISRAELI HAD BEEN WARNED BY MOSSAD. I said:
1) My friend told me he had been given a warning
2) when pressed (by you with the "Hello, David Rosenberg..." post), I speculated how this could have happened (like, Mossad had vague indiciations, did NOT withhold them from the americans, some inidividuals took initiative to warn relatives nevertheless). This is a far cry from the words you have been putting in my mouth since the beginning of this thread.

Your "hypothesis" (when you already started backpedaling from your original, stronger claim) was that some individuals were warned by Mossad.
Whatever.. read what you want to read, but dont expect me to reply anymore.

I am not the one making up ******** theories on imaginary evidence! I am not that one making claims of mysterious Mossad connected relatives! If it is just a speculation on my part, why did you report this to two newsagencies?
I reported nothing else than the 1) statement: he had been given a warning, or at least, told me he had. I dont know by who, I never claimed I knew, I just speculated.

I have been on this forum for two years. My credibility is set, one way or the other.
Since you havent done anything as twisting my words, your credibility in my book is indeed set.. the other way.

[Tmy]

Does this need to be so difficult. Has anyone checked the list of the deceased to see if there are any Isrealis on it. I know there were jewish names. The fact that jews or israeli's were killed would counterthe theory that they were warned.

[renata]

This is a useless waste of time. I didnt want this tread, you did.

Quoting from this
thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256)

After I called you on you BS a second time, Scared Chicken says

I sent you a PM.

I replied, refusing to discuss this via PMs (emphasis current), and requesting to continue the discussion in that thread

I do not publicize the contents of other people's PMs to me. However, I do want to indicate that you did not provide the detailes of your relative's name and work location. I understand you do not want to reveal it to a stranger, however, you make this allegation, and you have to supply the proof.

I would prefer to discuss this matter on this thread. You made a serious allegation and I want the debate about it to continue here. Indeed, there are probably others who would like to weigh in on your opinion.

Therefore, I request you to post what you wrote to me in the PM here, for open discussion. If you choose not to do it, I will not discuss this issue.

You asked me to start a new thread (emphasis current)

Well, if you must.. feel free to publish the contents of my pm if you post it a new thread. But I doubt it will get us anywhere, I dont have the proof your asking for, since I didnt tape my phone converstations. I've been through this drill more than once.

I replied

OK, I am starting a new thread and quoting the PM. Thanks for the permission.

Now who asked for this new thread?

Boy, if you will lie, at least do so when you can't get caught red handed.

Here is a suggestion, Chicken- take a breath, think before you post, read your old posts prior to posting lies, and then you won't have to backpedal quite so much.

How are we supposed to believe your story, of you can't even tell the truth from one post to another?

BTW- you originally said he was a "relative", not a "friend". Is that another lie?

[Scared Chicken]

But no one is claiming all/most/many Israeli had been warned by Mossad! At least I am not, but Renata is trying to twist my words to make it sound as if I said that.

[renata]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken
But no one is claiming all/most/many Israeli had been warned by Mossad! At least I am not, but Renata is trying to twist my words to make it sound as if I said that.

It really sucks that you couldn't delete all your posts, doesn't it? Now you have you argue not with what I remember, but with what you wrote

[Scared Chicken]

If you want ot discuss semantics:
1) You wanted to further discuss this, I wanted to avoid the discussion we're having now. Been there done that. Hence the PM, and the removal of my posts to keep the thread OT.
2) You insisted on taking this debate further, I didnt not object, but asked you to do it in *another* thread if you had to publish this per se.

So, saying I insisted on having this thread, is at the least pulling things out of context. I just wanted it out of the other thread, if at all. Happy now ?

As for calling me a liar, why don't you refute the more important issues of my previous post ? Where is this quote where I claim to know Mossad warned all these Jews ?

[Scared Chicken]

It really sucks that you couldn't delete all your posts, doesn't it? Now you have you argue not with what I remember, but with what you wrote
Im pulling out of this thread. your obviously not interested in discussing something you only want to spread to FUD. Get back to me when you found that post where I claim to know Mossad warned Jews on 9/11 as you have been saying from the very first post.

[renata]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken

Im pulling out of this thread. your obviously not interested in discussing something you only want to spread to FUD. Get back to me when you found that post where I claim to know Mossad warned Jews on 9/11 as you have been saying from the very first post.

You mean the items you had no access to delete?

OK

Here

I am thoroughly convinced intelligence agencies (American and Isreali) had knowledge of an attack on the WTC. People have been warned, including an Isreali relative of mine, that was warned two days prior to the attack to stay home on 9-11. He worked at the WTC.

and here



>Respond to my earlier post, please. I will repeat it here in case
>you forgot. Please provide the information requested and
>address the snopes article.

I hope you dont mind if I respond through PM, for reasons stated in the thread.

>Bullsh!t
>
>http://slate.msn.com/id/116813/
>www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm

Im not sure how this refutes what I said. But if you want links, do a search on Odigo and WTC.

>So your relative is a heartless criminal who was all too happy to
>have thousands die.

You mean: why didnt he warn everyone ? I guess he didnt get a message saying "Bin Laden will send 2 passenger planes into the WTC on 9/11". If you got an anonymous mail saying something like like: "Dear friend, I strongly advice to remain at home on 9/11, and to pass this message to your Jewish friends and comrades", I doubt it would be very convincing but you could decide not to take the chance, forward it anyway and stay home while most of your friends/collegues would ignore it. But then, I dont know what it said, so your guess is as good as mine.

>His name? The company he worked for? Names of the 4000 >Israelis who all called in sick?

I dont know who you are, so even if I broke contact with him, surely you understand I wont give you his identity. I did report this story (with the name) to two US newsagencies 2 years ago, but I dont know if they ever investigated it. I've never seen any reports on it. But like you may have read before I deleted the posts, this person would not even repeat his statement to me when I asked him. He told me about the warning shortly after the catastrophy, but after that, he would insist it was nothing, a coincidence, and avoid the topic. So I doubt he'd be willing to talk to the media.

BTW, I dont blame you for not believing me; I wouldnt believe it either. But if just for a second you assume I am telling the truth, Im not sure what this would prove. In no way is this proof or indication of Israeli involvement in 9/11. Could just be the mossad had an idea/lead but no proof, (and I suppose informed the Americans) but without convincing intelligence, some individuals from eg Mossad decided to warn a few friends/relatives anyway. Just a hypothesis. I somehow doubt we will ever know.



You say Mossad warned (at least some, not one) Jews prior to 9/11.

[Scared Chicken]

You say Mossad warned (at least some, not one) Jews prior to 9/11.

I read your quotes, but didnt read that.
Im not sure how this refutes what I said. But if you want links, do a search on Odigo and WTC.
The Odigo story, true or not, doesnt make mention of mossad. it just claims a few Odigo employees got warnings through an instant messenger. But regardless, I dont see how this proves your statement that I said mossad warned jews/

You mean: why didnt he warn everyone ? I guess he didnt get a message saying "Bin Laden will send 2 passenger planes into the WTC on 9/11". If you got an anonymous mail saying something like "Dear friend, I strongly advice to remain at home on 9/11, and to pass this message to your Jewish friends and comrades", I doubt it would be very convincing but you could decide not to take the chance, forward it anyway and stay home while most of your friends/collegues would ignore it. But then, I dont know what it said, so your guess is as good as mine.
Very convincing quote. Where does exactly does it say what you claimed it said ?

I did report this story (with the name) to two US newsagencies 2 years ago, but I dont know if they ever investigated it.
So ? this is true.
BTW, I dont blame you for not believing me; I wouldnt believe it either. But if just for a second you assume I am telling the truth, Im not sure what this would prove. In no way is this proof or indication of Israeli involvement in 9/11. Could just be the mossad had an idea/lead but no proof, (and I suppose informed the Americans) but without convincing intelligence, some individuals from eg Mossad decided to warn a few friends/relatives anyway. Just a hypothesis. I somehow doubt we will ever know.

Hey, I can use bold tags. Now, can you read ? Where do I say Mossad HAD ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE and used this to warn fellow Jews, and not the US ? Keep twisting and turning... maybe someone will believe you.

[renata]

Nice job analyzing your writings after you had already started backpedaling, the fact that I indicated before.

But I do not see your analysis of this gem. Since you suffer from selective blindness as well as selective memory, here it is.


I am thoroughly convinced intelligence agencies (American and Isreali) had knowledge of an attack on the WTC. People have been warned, including an Isreali relative of mine, that was warned two days prior to the attack to stay home on 9-11. He worked at the WTC.

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by renata
Nice job analyzing your writings after you had already started backpedaling, the fact that I indicated before.
Pfffff... yeah, I also backpedalled on the those Senate candidates that got killed in plane accidents. Guess what, they didnt die, they still live, just like Elvis. I deleted these posts to avoid this crap. You are right, I shouldn't, not in that same thread, but Im not backpedaling on anything -yet. Did my original post even mention the word Mossad ? No it didnt.

I am thoroughly convinced intelligence agencies (American and Isreali) had knowledge of an attack on the WTC.
Now I will backpedal. I should have said " I am thoroughly convinced intelligence agencies (American and/or Isreali) had knowledge of a possible catastrophical terrorist attack ", since that would be much closer to my believes. So yes, I do believe there where indications of something happening on 9/11, I think is a well known fact. they only failed to take these indiciations serious enough and/or prevent what happened.
People have been warned, including an Isreali relative of mine, that was warned two days prior to the attack to stay home on 9-11. He worked at the WTC
Did I say he was warned by the Mossad ? he had been warned, and I have stated over and over, I do no know by whom. Could be Mossad, could be CIA, God knows, could be he happened to know one of the hijackers, could be an individual within the CIA/Mossad/ that took the indications more seriously than his superior. I JUST DONT KNOW . And I never claimed I did.

[Scared Chicken]

Renata,

In fact, what is your whole point of this thread ? What are you trying to prove, and why ? Are you trying to prove:
1) I believe the isreali's staged 9/11,
2) I have said the mossad warned some Jews, hence they knew, hence I was probably insinuating 9/11 was an Isreali attack
3) By claiming a former friend of mine had receieved a warning from I dont know who, I insinuated that must have been by the Mossad, and therefore 9/11 was a Mossad attack
4) something else ?

Im really at a loss here. My post was on the PNAC. I tried to show that some of the current US leaders are warhawks, striving for "global leadership", and not even making a secret about that. Its a f*cking public document.

Then I threw in a few other noteworthy/bizar events of the last years (a few senator planecrashes 2-3 weeks prior elections, 2yk elections, a almost prophectial note on 9/11 as a new pearl harbor,.). And then you pick out 1 fragment, make me explain something I prefer not to, and now you go all these lenghts to prove I said something I never did, and that is absolutely contrary to the point I was trying to make in the first place (ie: be very warry of US leaders true intentions, and methods). I never said, claimed, insinuated or thought: be afraid of Israel. (unless you happen to be Palestine).

If anything, you could call me on insinuating the US government, or people behind them, staged their own 9/11, and yes, however horryfying, I still keep my mind open to that possibility.

So what exactly are you trying to prove here ?

[rikzilla]

Renata,

Firstly, thanks for challenging this creep at every turn. He is making the same claims and excuses that anti-semitic historical revisionists have done for years about the Holocaust. So now Holocaust deniers have a new hobby....conspiracy theories about the Mossad and 9/11. It's disgusting to say the least. The entire question is easily settled for all skeptics via the liberal use of Occam's razor. The conspiracy theorists are of course never satisfied....it is a prime example of formulating an opinion...and then attempting to find pieces of data that fit your preconception while ignoring all evidence which does not fit.

SC is either evil or foolish...maybe a little of both.

Thanks again Renata!
-zilla

[Scared Chicken]

Great... now im not only an antisemite, but a holocaust denier and a revisionist as well. Thats be best insult I have heard in years, especially having lost a good part of my familiy in the holocaust. Thanks, much appreciated. :mad:

Do you people actually read what I said ? or just blindly assumed Renata's twist of my words and false accusations to be correct ?

[Skeptic]

SC is either evil or foolish...maybe a little of both.

Or perhaps simply a troll--most likely in my opinion.

[Skeptic]

the only problem with that link is that the US is always going to be fed stories about [potential] terrorist attacks. if you don't know exactly how, when and where, you can't really do much to prevent it. America is a big place with millions of people and tens of thousands of possible targets. You can't lock the whole place down, without destroying the economy.

For once I agree 100% with AUP. It's not strictly true that "if you don't know exactly how, when and where, you can't really do much to prevent it", but pretty close.

[Scared Chicken]

Or perhaps simply a troll--most likely in my opinion. [/B]

You know, someone pointed me to this forum to discuss the PNAC worries I had. So I posted here, hoping to find a few reasonable minds to discuss this.

So far, almost no one has posted any usefull replies to this thread. Instead, Renata steps in, picks one line of of that post, and pretends she is interested. I bite, though I should have known better. Then she starts this thread, laying words in my mounth I never said. Twising my words, accusing me of lying and antisemitism, while she still hasnt backed her claims that started this in the firtst place- and she wont, because not only did I not say that, I DO NOT EVEN BELIEVE IN, NOT BY A LONG SHOT .crap, its contrary to the point I was trying to make in the first place.

. And now, here I am, labeled as revisionist, holocaust denier, troll... great I guess I chose the wrong forum.

Have nice life all, Im sure you wont miss me, but the feeling is mutual.

[Cleopatra]

Scared Chicken if you have edited your posts, you have a problem, I am afraid.

In my opinion everybody has the right to think what ever he/she wants.

Personally, what makes me angry, are the insinuations.

If you think that Jews knew about this attack in advance and they didn't let everybody know, fine! Say it! But you must expect some reactions to this for reasons explained above.

Editing a post and erasing part of it after posting is not a good idea, I am sure you agree on that.It's not fair.

If you have edited your posts, if you have asked Renata to start a thread and if you changed your mind, just say it and ask an apology from Renata.

If you decide to do this, I will stand by your side.

Anonimity must make us behave with a certain dignity and nobility.

Anonimity is a luxury and not a trick to upset or manipulate others.

Thanks

[Scared Chicken]

Scared Chicken if you have edited your posts, you have a problem, I am afraid.
I have deleted posts, and deleted "off topic" remarks on my NPAC post here:
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256

If you want the original post, I'll copy paste it here below.
I didnt change it to cover my ass, I changed it because I felt my point was being ignored and all attention drawn to this endless discussion that you are witnessing here. I found the central idea in my original post important enough to try to stop that from happening.

If you think that Jews knew about this attack in advance and they didn't let everybody know, fine! Say it!
If thats what I thought, I wouldnt know why I would not say it. The thing is, thats not what I think, nor what I said, but it is what Renata thinks she read between the lines. Somehow, her reading skills leave something to be desired. And calling me a liar and a antisemite over it is not appreciated.

you have edited your posts, if you have asked Renata to start a thread and if you changed your mind, just say it and ask an apology from Renata.
I surely didnt not motivate Renata to start/continue this discussion.. I wanted to avoid it, because I knew what I had witnesses was bound to be either misinterpreted or not believed. I have discussed this OVER and OVER for years, with friends, on forums. Because I do not have the evidence it happened, I should have been wiser, and not bring it up. (btw, I am talking about a friend of mine, telling me once, and denying it afterwards, that he got a warning. No more, no less.)
but, since I was being falsely accused of blaming the Jews for 9/11, and it was polluting a topic i happend to care about, I asked her not to discuss it on the PNAC thread, but in a new one instead. I gave her permission to post the PM I sent her, to show I was not claiming an Isreali 9/11 conspiracy theory as Renata said or insinuated. Thats a bit different from asking to start a tread on it (heck, why wouldnt I have started it myself then ?)

Either way, thanks for being the first one who appears willing to listen.

Below is the post as I originally put it here please note the absense of the words Jews, Israel, Mossad,..):
-----------------------------------
I recently stumbled across this very scary report: “Rebuilding America’s Defences". It's from an organization called "Project for the New American Century":

"Established in the spring of 1997, the Project for the New American Century is a non-profit, educational organization whose goal is to promote American global leadership."

This sounds like an obscure, extreme right, imperialistic group.. and it looks a lot like it. The entire report is about "Pax Americana" and "American global leadership". It really looks like a roadmap to world domination, and I am hardly exaggerating. However, as I will show a bit further, this organization is anything BUT obscure. But first a few quotes:

"America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievement of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favourable to American principles and interests? "

"[What we require is] a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States’ global responsibilities."

"ESTABLISH FOUR CORE MISSIONS for U.S. military forces:
<..>
• fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars;"

"While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force present in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

They plain call the regime of Hussein an excuse to install a large military presence in the area!

As if this is not worrying enough, the next quote really gave me shivers:

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor." (page 63)

This was written in the year 2000. One year before the "new Pearl Harbor" took place on 9-11. How convenient, they literally say they would need such an event as a catalyst to accelerate their military build up, and then suddenly, one year later, this happens... the massively increased military funding the report is calling for, the military build-up, and now the rest of the plan also starts happening.

And now the really scary part. This is not an obscure small time organization. This organization is formed around people like Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush,... Check it out yourself: http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Think about it, in 1997 some very wealthy, powerful and very influential, power hungry war hawks unite in an organisation whose goal is to promote "American global leadership".

October 2000
Democratic governor Carnahan dies in an inexplicable plane accident when running a close race for the Senate against Ashcroft... 3 weeks before the elections.

November 2000
Bush was elected in a campaign that (to say the least) was dubious. 6 months later, "irregularities" where noted in reports, but no one cares anymore.

January 2001
Bush wants to increase defence budget by more than $20 billion to protect America "from the real threats of the 21st century". Just like outlined in the report linked below. He faces stiff opposition, few people understand why this is necessary in the post Cold War time.

September 2001
9-11. The "new pearl harbour" happens. The catalyst needed to change US public opinion, and the excuse needed to massively increase defence budgets, and start wars left and right. Just like announced/hoped for in the report.

October 2002
Another bizarre plane crash of a Democratic candidate. Senator, Paul Wellstone, running a close race for the Senate and seriously threatening the republican majority in the senate, dies 2 weeks before election day in another inexplicable plane crash..

If you want to believe this is all coincidental, feel free to. But I urge the American citizens to remain alert, and critical towards their leaders, because this is very, very troublesome. Many Americans compare Sadam with Hitler, and say a pre-emptive attack is required to prevent worse things from happening... but the report linked below shows many more parallels with Hitler’s Third Reich than anything else. Just replace "Aryan" with "Americans" and "Jews" with "Muslim", and there you have your Third Reich. Americans, please, remain alert, I urge you. As a European, I feel no hate towards your country or your people whatsoever, on the contrary, but your current leaders scare me ********. Please don't make the same mistake the German citizens made 70 years ago

Fight for your constitutional rights, have the courage to question your political leaders, and have the courage to investigate events that are more than just a little suspicious.
This is not about showing solidarity with your troops fighting in Iraq, this is not about being disrespectful about the victims of 9-11. Ask those questions, I beg you. Open your eyes, and don’t be fooled or scared by daily warnings of possible terrorist attacks. The biggest terrorist ever may very well be your own president, or more likely, the people behind him.

“Ich habe nicht gewußt.’
Dixit 70 million Germans in 1945

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
EDIT: I changed the color of the text I removed from the NPAC post for your convenience

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken
Great... now im not only an antisemite, but a holocaust denier and a revisionist as well. Thats be best insult I have heard in years, especially having lost a good part of my familiy in the holocaust. Thanks, much appreciated. :mad:

Do you people actually read what I said ? or just blindly assumed Renata's twist of my words and false accusations to be correct ?

poseur...this is a skeptic site...you're only fooling yourself.

[Scared Chicken]

It would be refreshing to some more people being skeptical about what is going on in the world.. Where are all these sceptics when Bush announces this is a war against terrorism ? The Bin Laden connection ? The imminent danger of Sadam's WOMD ?etc, etc,... This seems more like a 'selective skeptic' site.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken
It would be refreshing to some more people being skeptical about what is going on in the world.

Translation: "I enjoy indulging in wild speculation, based upon the thinnest evidence, and wish others would do the same."

Come back when you have evidence for your claim (re: Jews being warned of WTC attack) that can be corroborated by independent sources.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken
It would be refreshing to some more people being skeptical about what is going on in the world.. Where are all these sceptics when Bush announces this is a war against terrorism ? The Bin Laden connection ? The imminent danger of Sadam's WOMD ?etc, etc,... This seems more like a 'selective skeptic' site.

You are obviously new here. Those people you are talking about are well represented here and listened to. They make logical arguments that have merit. They are not conspiracy theorists such as yourself.

Wayne Grabert....Sundog....Victor...and many others are skeptical of the government. Yet even they tend not to put forth conspiracy theories. By ignoring the very basics of logic such as Occam, you leave yourself open to logical and rational attacks. Conspiracy theories are generally extraordinary claims such as the 4,000 Jew story...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, you OTOH don't even have any ordinary evidence.
Stop wasting your time, and ours.

-zilla

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by rikzilla
By ignoring the very basics of logic such as Occam, you leave yourself open to logical and rational attacks.

Well, I dont think Occam's razor aplies, since I am not trying to explain something, I was trying to raise awareness.

Conspiracy theories are generally extraordinary claims such as the 4,000 Jew story...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, you OTOH don't even have any ordinary evidence.

here is my evidence, its pretty bullet proof:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Please note I did not launch the 4000 Jew story. Renata tricked me in that. My conspiracy story can be read a few posts up.

Stop wasting your time, and ours.


There is an unsubscribe link. Feel free to click it if you're not interested. I much prefer that over being called an "anti-semitic historical revisionist" based on words I never said.

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by DrBenway
Come back when you have evidence for your claim (re: Jews being warned of WTC attack) that can be corroborated by independent sources.

This is a nice illustration of how urban legends are born. The whole point of this thread is that I never said this "Jews warned by Mossad" thing that Renata keeps in reading in her imagination.

My original post wasnt a claim either.. if you havent read it, go read it here:http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256

If it contains just one statement that is not factual correct or requires further evidence, be my guess to point it out, I'll gladly listen or answer.

[Cleopatra]

Introduction

There is only one reason that made me spend time to read the threads over and over before replying...

I don't want anybody to claim that who ever tries to criticize Israel or Jews is automatically accused of anti-semitism.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scared Chicken

Renata, provided us with the parts of your posts that you have removed.

Have you written those things, yes or no?

I think you have because otherwise you'd come out and deny it by the first moment! Even if you want to deny it, I am afraid that you can't because your comments are still there, quoted by other posters.

So, you owe Renata an apology for false accusations.

Let's get to the essence now.

I read your post in the other thread. I am not sure that you are aware of the importance of your accusations.

Accusing a democratic government for plots and conspiracies, is apart from serious, very offensive to the people of the country you volunteered to illuminate.

Second. You claimed that a Jewish relative of yours received a certain call that advised him not to go to WTC.

As you can understand, we don't know the name of this relative and he doesn't honour us with his presence in this forum, all we know is that he is someone related to you. So the responsibility to prove this statement becomes yours!

Got it?

As you said to the other thread, all you wanted was to warn the american people and make them think about certain things.

This is a serious job and must be done with responsibility.

I am sorry but you don't have a case.

PS I will not stop until you proove your claims or take them back.

[rikzilla]

The PDF file is large and I have no interest in reading the whole thing. Please highlight for me the part that provides evidence that there was a 9/11 conspiracy of any kind.

Remember...your extraordinary claim...(that an evil American cabal known as PNAC is planning global domination, and is somehow behind 9/11)...requires extraordinary evidence. A website does #1. not meet the level of extraordinary. It is evidence that can be checked and I thank you for bringing it up for discussion. However, even if it is a real webpage, for a real thinktank, that really wishes for American global domination, still does not rise to the level of evidence. #2. Extraordinary evidence would mean various sources, and at least one piece of "smoking gun" evidence.

PNAC is however a good target for discussion. I would suggest that you research them and post what you find for others to comment on. By coming here and making bombastic claims about them you are turning people off.

-zilla

-zilla

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken
This is a nice illustration of how urban legends are born. The whole point of this thread is that I never said this "Jews warned by Mossad" thing that Renata keeps in reading in her imagination.
In the thread you originally started, you said:

"...I am thoroughly convinced intelligence agencies (American and Isreali) had knowledge of an attack on the WTC. People have been warned, including an Isreali relative of mine, that was warned two days prior to the attack to stay home on 9-11. He worked at the WTC."
You a friend of Chessmanskeptic?

[Wayne Grabert]

Rather than indulging emotions or getting into namecalling, let's make a dispassionate consideration of whether or not Israel knew in advance what Mohammad Atta and company were up to.

A couple months ago I read an article that discussed a four-part series on Fox News. (Fox News is owned by Rupert Murdoch who is a strong supporter of Israel.) I don't recall the details of that story, but basically it said that it appeared that Israeli agents were active in Florida in the weeks before 9/11 and appeared to be shadowing some of the 9/11 terrorists, Atta in particular. (Some Israelis apparently involved in intelligence gathering rented an apartment across the street or down the block from Atta.)

Does that imply that Israel knew what Atta was up to and withheld that information? It doesn't make sense to me that it would. Why would Israelis shadow them if they already knew what they were up to? If the Fox story is accurate, then it seems more likely that Israel suspected that Atta might be up to no good (on what basis I don't know, but he was doing a lot of travelling to Europe and elsewhere to meet with terrorists) and were trying to find out what that was. Besides, we simply don't know what Mossad knew and what they may have shared with the FBI whose anti-terrorist division was not doing the best job of following up on leads from its own agents. I remember that the US had been warned by another government that Atta had met with terrorists in Indonesia (I think it was Indonesia), and yet he was living undisturbed in Florida!

Another explanation would be that the Israelis knew what Atta was up to, but were shadowing him to give support. Well, this is even harder to believe. Given the hatred of Israel by al Qaida, there is no way that they would knowingly collude with Israeli agents. The agents would have to somehow fool the terrorists into thinking they were fellow Arabs and would have to infiltrate al Qaida, etc., all very farfetched. Besides, various intelligence agencies from various countries have uncovered much of the money trail that shows that it was Arabs in Europe and New Jersey who were supplying Atta with support, not Israelis. We also have bin Laden's confession on that videotape that he and al Qaida were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. (You recall that videotape that was recorded in someone's apartment in Afghanistan in which bin Laden recounted how he didn't expect the WTC to collapse completely, how they heard the story on the radio, etc.?)

In conclusion, it is implausible to believe that Israel knew in advance what the 9/11 terrorists were planning, and it is baseless and absurd to believe that Israel was involved in the planning and execution of the attacks.

I'll criticize Israeli policies I disagree with and I encourage you to do the same, but stay realistic and fair.

[Baggle]

Scared Chicken, I think the JREF may be a little too advaced for your 5 language speaking self. Even if much of your family was lost in the holocaust and your Israeli relative, I mean friend, err, what was it?, was warned to stay away from the WTC on 9/11 by somebody that was NOT Mossad(as you're implying). Are you a master chess player, too? Do you attend a medical school? Ever seen the website for CyberShaman? No matter. JREF is too advanced for you. I'd recommend http://www.CoastToCoastAM.com for your brain power level. Not sure if there are forums there, but if there are, those people will eat this stuff up. They'll love you there. I highly recommend it for you.

-Baggle

[renata]

Wow, this thread is jumping!

First of all, thank you to all those who supported me in this thread. I think you addressed all the points really well, so there is not too much left for me. However, as most of the vitriol seems to be directed at me (ignore list! my first time on someone's ignore list!) I will address some points here.


I am amazed that people from the right, left and middle posted on this thread. And they all agree on this topic. I think this is a first in Politics forum: Skeptic and AUP, Wayne and Rikzilla, all agreeing. Could the end of the world be near? :)

Scared Chicken- you can insult me, and say things exist in my imagination. However, the posts you were unable to delete exist, as do the PMs. By the way, I received the second PM to me. I will not post it on this thread, and once again will not discuss its contents it here. I will also not reply, for obvious reasons.

All the quotes below are by the Chicken


The whole point of this thread is that I never said this "Jews warned by Mossad" thing that Renata keeps in reading in her imagination.

and
The thing is, thats not what I think, nor what I said, but it is what Renata thinks she read between the lines. Somehow, her reading skills leave something to be desired.
and
Keep twisting and turning... maybe someone will believe you.

People on this board can read. They have read your posts, and my posts. They know what you said. Claiming it is in my imagination, claiming I am twisting your words makes you look ridiculous.

Please note I did not launch the 4000 Jew story. Renata tricked me in that. My conspiracy story can be read a few posts up.

LOL! I did not trick you into that! I was not even posting on your thread until you started making claims that Mossad warned some Israelis. I am afraid you tricked yourself into that. To be honest, you did not say 4,000 Jews. You said Mossad warned some.

It would be refreshing to some more people being skeptical about what is going on in the world.. Where are all these sceptics when Bush announces this is a war against terrorism ? The Bin Laden connection ? The imminent danger of Sadam's WOMD ?etc, etc,... This seems more like a 'selective skeptic' site.

This is not a thread about that. This is a thread about one claim you made. I do not choose to engage you on the other issues. However, they way you carry on about this Mossad - makign conspiracy statements about your "relatives", deleting posts, insulting posters, twisting the facts, makes me think it is pointless to address you in any other issues. There is also no point in reposting the original post from your thread here. People can go to it if they wish you debate you there. I never claimed your allegations were in your first post, they were in subsequent posts in that thread..posts deleted by you after I called you on your claims.

And don't tell me you deleted them because you did not want to discuss the topic. You deleted them because you got quite obviously caught in a lie. If you did not want to discuss the topic, you would not have made the many, many posts to this thread.
You also keep promising to leave in a huff, yet you keep answering. If that is not troll behaviour, I do not know what is


You also said
Keep acting like that, and maybe you will be right one day. I will start hating your people.
By your people you mean Jews, of course. And then, later on, you say
Great... now im not only an antisemite, but a holocaust denier and a revisionist as well. Thats be best insult I have heard in years, especially having lost a good part of my familiy in the holocaust.

I don't even think this ditty needs commenting on.

Are you trying to prove:
1) I believe the isreali's staged 9/11,
2) I have said the mossad warned some Jews, hence they knew, hence I was probably insinuating 9/11 was an Isreali attack
3) By claiming a former friend of mine had receieved a warning from I dont know who, I insinuated that must have been by the Mossad, and therefore 9/11 was a Mossad attack
4) something else ?


I never said I thought you believe Israel staged or planned 9/11. However, you did say Mossad knew of the attack prior to it, and warned some Jews. You even gave creative reasons as to why those Jews (like your "relative", who morphed into a "friend" later in the thread) would take the warning seriously enough not to go to work, but would tell no others- not their friends, relatives, FBI, co-workers, lovers- nobody else. You even reported it to 2 newsagencies! If you did not think this was an important issue you would not have reported it to newsagencies.

So the point of my thread is just as it states in the topic "Were Israelis warned to stay away from WTC prior to 9/11?". You say they were. I say they were not. Hence the disagreement.



By the way, Scared Chicken- which 5 languages do you speak? I am very curious to know.

[headscratcher4]

Renata -- as always, my heroine! Keep up the good fight!

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by renata LOL! I did not trick you into that! I was not even posting on your thread until you started making claims that Mossad warned some Israelis. .
I most definately did not. 20+ posts on this thread, and still no quote to prove this. I....Did..... not....

And don't tell me you deleted them because you did not want to discuss the topic. You deleted them because you got quite obviously caught in a lie. If you did not want to discuss the topic, you would not have made the many, many posts to this thread.
Strange.. i somehow do not like being called a liar and a antisemite when all I did was insinuate the US governement might be playing a extremely dirty game (a claim to wich you prefer not to reply).
You also keep promising to leave in a huff, yet you keep answering. If that is not troll behaviour, I do not know what is Im deeply sorried for keeping refuting the allegations you write here.

and warned some Jews. You even gave creative reasons as to why those Jews (like your "relative", who morphed into a "friend" later in the thread) would take the warning seriously enough not to go to work, but would tell no others- not their friends, relatives, FBI, co-workers, lovers- nobody else. You even reported it to 2 newsagencies! If you did not think this was an important issue you would not have reported it to newsagencies.Dont you think *anyone* having prior knowledge on this is newsworthy ? be it Jews, Americans or Japanse ?

So the point of my thread is just as it states in the topic "Were Israelis warned to stay away from WTC prior to 9/11?". You say they were. I say they were not. Hence the disagreement.

I only said my friend (AND relative) was informed somehow.


By the way, Scared Chicken- which 5 languages do you speak? I am very curious to know.

Dutch, french, german, spanish, and some english. Happy now ?

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by Baggle
[B]Scared Chicken, I think the JREF may be a little too advaced for your 5 language speaking self. Even if much of your family was lost in the holocaust and your Israeli relative, I mean friend, err, what was it?, was warned to stay away from the WTC on 9/11 by somebody that was NOT Mossad(as you're implying)

I wasnt implying that.. just pointing out the possibility. I've you had read my posts, you'd know I said I DONT KNOW. More than once or twice.

Are you a master chess player, too? Do you attend a medical school?
No, and no.

Ever seen the website for CyberShaman? No matter. JREF is too advanced for you. I'd recommend http://www.CoastToCoastAM.com for your brain power level.

thanks, great link.

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by rikzilla
[B]The PDF file is large and I have no interest in reading the whole thing. Please highlight for me the part that provides evidence that there was a 9/11 conspiracy of any kind.

You wish it was that easy/obvious..
I dont have any evidence, nor claimed I had.
Remember...your extraordinary claim...(that an evil American cabal known as PNAC is planning global domination, and is somehow behind 9/11)[QUOTE]
I claim the first statement, I keep my mind open the second one might be true. I have "proof" for the first claim, I have none whatsoever for the second.

[QUOTE]. A website does #1. not meet the level of extraordinary. It is evidence that can be checked and I thank you for bringing it up for discussion. However, even if it is a real webpage, for a real thinktank, that really wishes for American global domination, still does not rise to the level of evidence. #2.
A claim I never made. I leave it up to your appreciation to see or ignore the relation. The website is real though.

[renata]

Three posts, all saying Scared Chicken never stated
I am thoroughly convinced intelligence agencies (American and Isreali) had knowledge of an attack on the WTC. People have been warned, including an Isreali relative of mine, that was warned two days prior to the attack to stay home on 9-11. He worked at the WTC.


Either
1. I am lying, and this is not your quote
2. You said Mossad warned some Israelis prior to 9/11.

Admit it, say you were wrong, and get over it.

Dutch, french, german, spanish, and some english. Happy now ?

I am pleased. Unfortunately, you only overlap with one of my languages, so I can not test it. Your track record isn't that great.




Headscratcher- Thanks! As one of your biggest fans, I am quite flattered :). However, I am getting bored with this guy. He only has one trick- claiming he never said what he clearly did. All I have to do now is keep cutting and pasting that quote. I predict he will either abandon this thread, or once claim he did not say Mossad warned some Israelis. "Show me where I said it! Show me!". Maybe a little more of "Renata tricked me! She started it! Why won't anyone believe me?". I almost sympathize with him- it is rough trying to erase previous statements and having that bite you in the tail.

[Cleopatra]

Renata, as I mentioned before it's not that simple

He is not going to get away with it just because he is stupid, unless he declares that he is stupid.

He is not. He did this on purpose but he underestimated the fact that he was addressing well-informed people.

Scared Chicken, I am sick of anti-semetic urban legends that pop-up ether as a joke or as a rumour and then none apologizes for them.

In another forum I read about another "trust worthy source" according to which Israelis have weapons that kill only Arabs.

I am sick of guys like you.I wish you had the courage to defend what you believe instead of spreading your dirt everywhere.

Take it back and apologize for you behaviour.

[Scared Chicken]

Either
1. I am lying, and this is not your quote
2. You said Mossad warned some Israelis prior to 9/11.

3. You do not read, but interprete.
My statements:
1) I claimed to be convinced intellegence agencies had prior knowledge (as: indications). I am not exactly alone.. just a quick Google gave me this: http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/18/intelligence.hearings/index.html
2) I said my friend had been warned. Thats what he told me. He did not tell me by who, I do not know by whom nor have I ever claimed I did.

But you read 1 and 2 and presume I said 3. Just because he indeed is Jew, you think it could only have been the Mossad that warned him but I did not say that, nor did I want to imply that. And then you presume 4, that I am convinced the Mossad only warned Jews (where the HELL did you get that), and 5 that I am convinced this shows 9/11 was a Mossad operation. And while you are all at it, 6,7,8,9 that I am an antisemite, hollocaust denier, and God knows what else.

Admit it, say you were wrong, and get over it.
You wish.. However, I will say this: to those people, who followed your false reasoning that 1+2 means 3,4,5,6,7,8.. I appologize for giving the false impression of accusing Jews or Isreal of anything. I did not accuse them, nor intended to.


I am pleased. Unfortunately, you only overlap with one of my languages, so I can not test it. Your track record isn't that great.

As if I care. Kus mijn reet.

However, I am getting bored with this guy. He only has one trick- claiming he never said what he clearly did. All I have to do now is keep cutting and pasting that quote. I predict he will either abandon this thread, or once claim he did not say Mossad warned some Israelis.

Once ? I have claimed that maybe a dozen times.. I have never claimed the opposite, which is the whole point. Please tell me, if indeed I would think what you are trying to put in my mouth for countless posts now, why on earth would I fight it ? Why wouldnt I just say I think Isreal staged 9/11 ? But please, keep pasting the same quote, be my guest.

[Scared Chicken]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Scared Chicken, I am sick of anti-semetic urban legends that pop-up ether as a joke or as a rumour and then none apologizes for them.

And I am sick of being accused of things I did not say, did not think, did not mean to imply. The urban legend here is not that Isreal planned 9/11 and warned only Jews.. The urban legend is that I would have thought or said any of that. And no one is apologizing to me either.

Take it back and apologize for you behaviour. [/B]

After being called a hollocaust denier, revisionist and antisemite over things I never said, implied nor thought, you really expect me to apologize for my behaviour?

[renata]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken

3. You do not read, but interprete.
My statements:
1) I claimed to be convinced intellegence agencies had prior knowledge (as: indications). I am not exactly alone.. just a quick Google gave me this: http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/18/intelligence.hearings/index.html


Oh, Come on! Do you really expect anyone to believe that you meant FBI may have missed some warnings? I will believe you, as soon as I get back from my lobotomy.
1. You deleted all of the posts in the other thread that expounded on your theory.
2. The post that was saved, because another person quoted, in combination with the PM you sent, clearly indicated you thought Mossad warned some Israelis.

Seeing you twisting and turning like a pinata is starting to lose its appeal.

Look, SC, If I posted a thread saying what I said, but provided no quotes, I would be decimated. It is not like JREF board is my fan club. There are plenty of people who would have called me on it- this is a skeptic's board and people can be brutal. I have had some scuffles myself.

However, people read what YOU wrote. I am not an insane woman who is making things up. Read other people's posts. The fact that you deleted your posts on the other thread, coupled with what was salvaged proves my point.

The fact is- you weren't getting quite the response you wanted, you posted this theory, you were called on it, got scared, deleted posts and are busily denying what is obvious to everyone. Just stop it, you are making a fool of yourself.



As if I care. Kus mijn reet.
MIJ zou , wanneer niet voor naar de pukkel. Zit welk op welke manier u spreken voor te vrouw?

[ssibal]

Wayne, is this the story you are referring to?
http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/ap-wp.html
It seems that the story was bogus. Gotta hand it to Fox for being somewhat consistent.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken


And I am sick of being accused of things I did not say, did not think, did not mean to imply. The urban legend here is not that Isreal planned 9/11 and warned only Jews.. The urban legend is that I would have thought or said any of that. And no one is apologizing to me either.

Ok...then please restate what you believe to have happened. Consider yourself given a second chance...I am trying to understand what this is all about. Throw me a bone. :)



After being called a hollocaust denier, revisionist and antisemite over things I never said, implied nor thought, you really expect me to apologize for my behaviour?

I did not call you a Holocaust Denier....I said that your tactic of saying something alluding to a Jewish conspiracy...and then backtracking and attempting to say you never said it that way is a debate tactic that the historical revisionists and Holocaust Deniers have used again and again. I merely pointed out the similarities.

Since you seem to be using their tactics...it would not be too far fetched of an idea that you are merely a thinly disguised anti-semite attempting to pass yourself off as a reasonable, rational poster. As I said before....restate your claim and I will attempt to understand it anew.

-zilla

[Scared Chicken]

Do you really expect anyone to believe that you meant FBI may have missed some warnings?
I expect people to read what I wrote: I dont know who warned him. And you twist this into this lie:
Scared Chicken claimed Israelis were warned not to go to WTC prior to 9/11. As evidence, he said he spoke to an Israeli relative who worked at WTC, and who told him he was warned by Mossad not to go and even worse:
I think suggesting that Israelis knew of 9/11 and only warned Jews is a horrible accusation
You can copy paste until your control key breaks down but I never said that, never implied, and most of all, never even thought it. This is a flat out lie, and the resulting antisemtic insults will not be forgiven quickly.


1. You deleted all of the posts in the other thread that expounded on your theory.

I think all the relevant parts have been reconstructed... and guess what.. still no clues that I claimed " Israelis knew of 9/11
and only warned Jews ".

2. The post that was saved, because another person quoted, in combination with the PM you sent, clearly indicated you thought Mossad warned some Israelis.

Go ahead, read my mind. I've you're as good as reading posts it should be interesting.

Look, SC, If I posted a thread saying what I said, but provided no quotes, I would be decimated.
You did a very good job of collecting quotes and mixing them subtle with insinuations and lies. Congratulations. I'm sure the fact I deleted my posts (though I reposted the original one in this thread) left plenty of room for people to assume I did for the reasons you are so keen to point out. Truth is different however, Im not going to keep repeating why I did it. If you dont want to believe that, thats up to you. You made up your mind, you're dead wrong, but so be it. Think of me as hollocaust denier from now on. I will think of you as a manipulator and insulter who is not interesting in finding out the truth, but only in painting her own truths.

The fact is- you weren't getting quite the response you wanted
Exactly. instead of focusing on the PNAC report, I got responses on a Jewish 9/11 conspiracy I didnt mean to suggest, I didnt believe in, and didnt want to debate. Hence, I changed my post.


MIJ zou , wanneer niet voor naar de pukkel. Zit welk op welke manier u spreken voor te vrouw?

Impressive babelfishing. "Me would, when not for towards the "pukkel". Sit which on which way u talk for too woman?"
I dont know the english word for "pukkel".

[renata]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken
I expect people to read what I wrote: I dont know who warned him. And you twist this into this lie:
and even worse:

You can copy paste until your control key breaks down but I never said that, never implied, and most of all, never even thought it. This is a flat out lie, and the resulting antisemtic insults will not be forgiven quickly.


Your posts speak for themselves. You mentioned Mossad, you said some were warned, you said Israeli intelligence agencies knew about the attack, you reported it to newsagencies.


I think all the relevant parts have been reconstructed... and guess what.. still no clues that I claimed " Israelis knew of 9/11
and only warned Jews ".

I do not think relevant parts have been misconstrued. I am afraid the benefit of the doubt is not with you on this, as you are the one who deleted the posts.


I'm sure the fact I deleted my posts (though I reposted the original one in this thread) left plenty of room for people to assume I did for the reasons you are so keen to point out.

Your original post had nothing to do with the topic. I never said those allegations were in that post.

Think of me as hollocaust denier from now on.

I never accused you of that. Now who is insulting and making up things?

I will think of you as a manipulator and insulter who is not interesting in finding out the truth, but only in painting her own truths.

Coming from you, that is high praise indeed.


Exactly. instead of focusing on the PNAC report, I got responses on a Jewish 9/11 conspiracy I didnt mean to suggest, I didnt believe in, and didnt want to debate. Hence, I changed my post.

You did suggest it, you did say it. If you wanted to avoid that topic, you should have stopped posting to this thread, and it would have died long ago. Instead, I suspect people post here not only because of my original post, but because of impressive ways you try to lie your way out of what you got caught posting.



Impressive babelfishing.

It was not babelfish, but a good try!

[Scared Chicken]

Ok...then please restate what you believe to have happened. Consider yourself given a second chance...I am trying to understand what this is all about. Throw me a bone. :)

Why do you want me to copy paste what I've been saying all this time ? Scroll up and read my posts. My main point was the PNAC thing. Still up for you to read here:http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256
I reposted the unmodified version in this thread, up a few posts. You may notice the complete absense of the words Mossad, Jews or Israel.

As for what happened on 9/11 I have no f*cking idea. But okay, lets rephrase what I said (when being pressed on this topic):
1) A Jewish friend of mine, whom I called since I was worried after 9/11, told me shortly after the event he stayed home that day, after receiving a warning. He would not restate that afterwards, instead saying it was a coincidence. true untrue ? I dont know. Did he imagine it ? Did I ? I dont know. If true, who warned him ? No fricking idea.

2) When pressed by Renata on how this would be impossible, and immediately implying I meant Mossad warned him, as well as 4.000 other Jews, but not the US authorities, I speculated in a PM to her on another possibility to try to show her that by no means, I was trying to insinuate Isreali involvement in 9/11 (which, btw, I explicitely stated). this was and still is my hypothesis:

Intelligence agencies had recveived warnings, which is only logical I think given the scale of this thing -however, receiving warnings is something different from being able to fully qualify and interprete them to prevent what happened. But I could imagine someone working for Mossad or CIA or even the KGB if you like, taking these claims serious enough as to warn relatives or friends working in the WTC. I know I would, if I had even vague indications this might happen, but they were not substantial enough to shut down all airtraffic and evacuate the WTC or not substantial enough to be taken serious by my superiors.. I know I'd ask my wife to stay home that day if she worked in the WTC. Wouldnt you ? But would you call the press and say:"hello, the WTC is about to be bombed, please evacuate at once ?" Not likely.
So this is purely a speculative attempt to explain what I witnessed. Im open to other explications. And if you dont believe my first claim, I wont blame you, and I wont press it. I wouldnt believe it, and I have no proof. So, thats why I prefered to keep the thread on topic (PNAC), and stop this debate. However Renata started twisting my words, and making it sound like I claimed 9/11 was Mossad thing.. I hope you can understand I continue to refute that.

I did not call you a Holocaust Denier....I said that your tactic of saying something alluding to a Jewish conspiracy...
So I am to believe this statement was not directed at me:" So now Holocaust deniers have a new hobby....conspiracy theories about the Mossad and 9/11". yeah right. If nothing else, at the very least you called me a creep and applauded Renata's continueing manipulations and outright lies. And you apparently did so, without even bothering to read closely what I said, and what I did not say.

[Scared Chicken]

You did suggest it, you did say it
Keep it coming, why dont you copy paste that quote of mine just once more ? I did NOT say it, you interpreted it that way, and then reformulated what you thought I wanted to say, as if I actually said it. So dont tell me I either said it, or believed it. If I did, why did I write this in my very first PM to you on this topic:

But if just for a second you assume I am telling the truth, Im not sure what this would prove. In no way is this proof or indication of Israeli involvement in 9/11. Could just be the mossad had an idea/lead but no proof, (and I suppose informed the Americans) but without convincing intelligence, some individuals from eg Mossad decided to warn a few friends/relatives anyway. Just a hypothesis. I somehow doubt we will ever know.

Does this sound like I believe Isreal staged 9/11 ? Let alone, I would claim they did (as you keep on suggesting) ?

If you wanted to avoid that topic, you should have stopped posting to this thread, and it would have died long ago.

And leave everyone to believe that I said what you continue to claim I said ? Fat chance. I have my pride.

[renata]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken


Why do you want me to copy paste what I've been saying all this time ? Scroll up and read my posts. My main point was the PNAC thing. Still up for you to read here:http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256
I reposted the unmodified version in this thread, up a few posts. You may notice the complete absense of the words Mossad, Jews or Israel.

As for what happened on 9/11 I have no f*cking idea. But okay, lets rephrase what I said (when being pressed on this topic):
1) A Jewish friend of mine, whom I called since I was worried after 9/11, told me shortly after the event he stayed home that day, after receiving a warning. He would not restate that afterwards, instead saying it was a coincidence. true untrue ? I dont know. Did he imagine it ? Did I ? I dont know. If true, who warned him ? No fricking idea.

2) When pressed by Renata on how this would be impossible, and immediately implying I meant Mossad warned him, as well as 4.000 other Jews, but not the US authorities, I speculated in a PM to her on another possibility to try to show her that by no means, I was trying to insinuate Isreali involvement in 9/11 (which, btw, I explicitely stated). this was and still is my hypothesis:

Intelligence agencies had recveived warnings, which is only logical I think given the scale of this thing -however, receiving warnings is something different from being able to fully qualify and interprete them to prevent what happened. But I could imagine someone working for Mossad or CIA or even the KGB if you like, taking these claims serious enough as to warn relatives or friends working in the WTC. I know I would, if I had even vague indications this might happen, but they were not substantial enough to shut down all airtraffic and evacuate the WTC or not substantial enough to be taken serious by my superiors.. I know I'd ask my wife to stay home that day if she worked in the WTC. Wouldnt you ? But would you call the press and say:"hello, the WTC is about to be bombed, please evacuate at once ?" Not likely.
So this is purely a speculative attempt to explain what I witnessed. Im open to other explications. And if you dont believe my first claim, I wont blame you, and I wont press it. I wouldnt believe it, and I have no proof. So, thats why I prefered to keep the thread on topic (PNAC), and stop this debate. However Renata started twisting my words, and making it sound like I claimed 9/11 was Mossad thing.. I hope you can understand I continue to refute that.


So I am to believe this statement was not directed at me:" So now Holocaust deniers have a new hobby....conspiracy theories about the Mossad and 9/11". yeah right. If nothing else, at the very least you called me a creep and applauded Renata's continueing manipulations and outright lies. And you apparently did so, without even bothering to read closely what I said, and what I did not say.

The proof is in the pudding. The part of your post you did not delete is still there. By deleting your original claims, you now attempt to paint me a liar, but it does not take away your words. I reposted them several times in this thread, people can see for themselves. Obfuscate all you want. However, I (unlike you) never, once lied in this thread. Not once.

Edited to add

As this has now become one long personal attack on me, and I have said what I felt I needed to say in this matter, I am now bowing out of this thread. I do not anticipate Chicken will say anything new other than repeating that he did not mean what he quite clearly wrote.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken


Why do you want me to copy paste what I've been saying all this time ? Scroll up and read my posts. My main point was the PNAC thing. Still up for you to read here:http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16256
I reposted the unmodified version in this thread, up a few posts. You may notice the complete absense of the words Mossad, Jews or Israel.

The "PNAC thing" was your main point? If so, then you have no point. PNAC is interesting...but it is hardly proof of anything. There are many think tank type groups across the nation...many of them espouse weird ideas. PNAC is meaningless, but a fun topic of debate. You don't appear to be debating PNAC...you seem to be saying this:

As for what happened on 9/11 I have no f*cking idea. But okay, lets rephrase what I said (when being pressed on this topic):
1) A Jewish friend of mine, whom I called since I was worried after 9/11, told me shortly after the event he stayed home that day, after receiving a warning. He would not restate that afterwards, instead saying it was a coincidence. true untrue ? I dont know. Did he imagine it ? Did I ? I dont know. If true, who warned him ? No fricking idea.


So you have "no fricking idea"? Then why are you linking this to PNAC? You must have an idea or you would not be here. You are obfuscating now. Also, your account of your "friend" (or whatever) is highly suspect. It would appear to be a rehash and paraphrase of the nasty little myth about 4,000 Jews warned by Mossad. You object by saying that you never said "4,000 Jews or Mossad....and yet your story fits the myth perfectly. You have repackaged it. Poorly I might add. You are attempting to bolster the myth...which inclines me to believe more than ever that you are like a Holocaust Denier. HDer's routinely attempt the same type of obfuscation that you are attempting...except they do it better.


2) When pressed by Renata on how this would be impossible, and immediately implying I meant Mossad warned him, as well as 4.000 other Jews, but not the US authorities, I speculated in a PM to her on another possibility to try to show her that by no means, I was trying to insinuate Isreali involvement in 9/11 (which, btw, I explicitely stated). this was and still is my hypothesis:

Intelligence agencies had recveived warnings, which is only logical I think given the scale of this thing -however, receiving warnings is something different from being able to fully qualify and interprete them to prevent what happened. But I could imagine someone working for Mossad or CIA or even the KGB if you like, taking these claims serious enough as to warn relatives or friends working in the WTC. I know I would, if I had even vague indications this might happen, but they were not substantial enough to shut down all airtraffic and evacuate the WTC or not substantial enough to be taken serious by my superiors.. I know I'd ask my wife to stay home that day if she worked in the WTC. Wouldnt you ? But would you call the press and say:"hello, the WTC is about to be bombed, please evacuate at once ?" Not likely.
So this is purely a speculative attempt to explain what I witnessed. Im open to other explications. And if you dont believe my first claim, I wont blame you, and I wont press it. I wouldnt believe it, and I have no proof. So, thats why I prefered to keep the thread on topic (PNAC), and stop this debate. However Renata started twisting my words, and making it sound like I claimed 9/11 was Mossad thing.. I hope you can understand I continue to refute that.

You "witnessed" something?? Or are you attempting to say that the anecdote of your "friend" is the "event" you "witnessed"??? From what I can see you witnessed nothing. You were told something. It could be truth, or lie....you have no idea which it was do you? Yet you come here with this story.

You are either a fool, thinking gossip rises to the level of evidence to be "witnessed". Or you are an evil anti-semite, seeking to spread evil anti-semitic untruths. Is this a false dichotomy? I don't think so.....I don't see much room in between for you on this issue.

You can either admit out loud that you don't know if your "friend" was telling the truth or not.....or you can tell us you know, and how you know by explaining to us what evidence you trully did witness in person. Or you can run away in shame because we pegged you for the nasty piece of work you are.


So I am to believe this statement was not directed at me:" So now Holocaust deniers have a new hobby....conspiracy theories about the Mossad and 9/11". yeah right. If nothing else, at the very least you called me a creep and applauded Renata's continueing manipulations and outright lies. And you apparently did so, without even bothering to read closely what I said, and what I did not say.

If Renata has lied and I see evidence of her lies I will spare no effort in denouncing her. I see no evidence that she has lied about you...if anything it seems her perception of what you represent becomes truer as I get to talk to you more.

You may be forgiven for being foolish enough to believe gossip is evidence...we've all been fooled before.....but you cannot be forgiven for coming to this board and attempt to promote an untruth. Period.

-zilla

[Scared Chicken]

The "PNAC thing" was your main point? If so, then you have no point. PNAC is interesting...but it is hardly proof of anything. There are many think tank type groups across the nation...many of them espouse weird ideas. PNAC is meaningless, but a fun topic of debate.

Considering the names of those behind PNAC (like the US vice president and the sectretary of Defence), i would not say "meaningless".. but then that's just my opinion.

So you have "no fricking idea"? Then why are you linking this to PNAC? You must have an idea or you would not be here.
In the original PNAC post, I alluded to a series of strange events, like these Senator planecrashes, and a almost prophetical notion in the report of a 'New Pearl Harbor', and remaining questions on the events surrounding 9/11. I dont know if there is a connection, I dont know if any or all of these consiparicy stories have any truth to them (let alone, I could proof them) but I prefer to keep my eyes open, and I was merely asking others to do the same.

However, on hindsight I'll gladly admit it was a bad idea to mix these conspiracy stories with the PNAC report story, as it polluted the main point, and it did not increase the credibility of the post. Thats why I removed these points from the thread.

You "witnessed" something?? Or are you attempting to say that the anecdote of your "friend" is the "event" you "witnessed"???
Pardon my lack of knowlegde of the English language if "witness" is the wrong word. I heard a friend saying he got a warning. If that does not make me a "witness" I do not know what word to use.

You can either admit out loud that you don't know if your "friend" was telling the truth or not.....or you can tell us you know, and how you know by explaining to us what evidence you trully did witness in person.
I think I have said on more than one occasion that I can not know if he was telling the truth.

I see no evidence that she has lied about you...
Well, if not lying, at least she confused her own interpretation with what I actually said. "As evidence, he said he spoke to an Israeli relative who worked at WTC, and who told him he was warned by Mossad not to go". I never claimed that, and Renata has not taken this back. Instead, she insists I did say it, while she only thinks I implied that. Whats worse, is that she extrapolates from that, that Im an antisemite, and believe the Mossad was behind 9/11. This is simply untrue and contradicts everything I believe, and everything I have ever said (even in that PM I state the exact opposite, but she continues to ignore that).

So, to sum this up: if you dont believe I heard what I did, call me a liar. If you believe I heard it via, via.. call me a fool (and liar). But saying I claim the Mossad was behind 9/11 is not only incorrect, its insulting, and calling me an antisemite or holocaust-denier is way, way over the line. I will not tolerate that.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken

So, to sum this up: if you dont believe I heard what I did, call me a liar. If you believe I heard it via, via.. call me a fool (and liar). But saying I claim the Mossad was behind 9/11 is not only incorrect, its insulting, and calling me an antisemite or holocaust-denier is way, way over the line. I will not tolerate that. [/B]

Your posting of the anecdote from the friend invites the comparison SC. Go read the 4,000 Jew story somewhere and see how your friend's story fits. I find it reasonable for Renata to equate your friend's story to it. PNAC is another issue entirely, I see no linkage but find it of interest regardless. Perhaps you could start a thread about that?

I do believe you may have heard this story from your "friend". If so I would contact him and demand evidence or retraction. When a friend lies to me he becomes an ex-friend. This friend has made you look foolish...and you have been foolish to credulously take his word.

This is a site populated by skeptics of all stripes. We don't agree on much here...but we do agree on the value of hard evidence when it comes to separating the $hit from the shinola. Most here will be willing to believe that Jesus walked on water and UFO's visit the earth.....we merely ask for evidence of these claims. If the evidence does not exist....then the claim may as well not even be given voice. It's baseless speculation. While speculation may be fun in religion or philosophy....things such as your friend's claim are not fun, but harmful. This myth is meant to do nothing less than demonize Jews and spread fear and hatred. Baseless speculation which causes pain and harm is worse than illogical... it's libelous and just plain morally wrong.

-z

[Wayne Grabert]

Originally posted by ssibal
Wayne, is this the story you are referring to?
http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/ap-wp.html
It seems that the story was bogus. Gotta hand it to Fox for being somewhat consistent.
Thank you. Yes, the story Fox reported involved art students. Well, that knocks the whole sinister matter out completely.

[Scared Chicken]

Your posting of the anecdote from the friend invites the comparison SC. Go read the 4,000 Jew story somewhere and see how your friend's story fits. I find it reasonable for Renata to equate your friend's story to it.
Which is quite a different thing from putting words in my mouth, and insisting I said it, when I clearly did not. I can understand she misinterpreted what I said, which is why I immediately sent her the PM to try and rectify that. I see no reason why she wanted to publish that PM, and twist my words other than labeling being able to lable me as an antisemite.


PNAC is another issue entirely, I see no linkage but find it of interest regardless. Perhaps you could start a thread about that?


LOL.. I did, didn't I ? Only it got polluted and ended it this endless debate on wether or not I said "mossad warned israeli about 9/11". The PNAC issue now being completely ignored



I do believe you may have heard this story from your "friend". If so I would contact him and demand evidence or retraction. When a friend lies to me he becomes an ex-friend.
You obviously didnt read the whole thread (not that I can blame you for it.. there are better ways to spend your time). But he has become an ex-friend for a long time. If you must know, one of the reasons we broke contact was indeed this 9/11 event. After he initially told me he had been warned, and later denied that, I insisted on clearing this matter up. Irony or not, but he started accusing me of wanting to hear from him the mossad warned him, and you can imagine the rest. Very similar to whats been happening in this thread. I have nothing against Jews, heck, I even have some remains of Jewish blood running through my veins, but I have noticed over and over that its often hard, if not impossible to have a normal discussion with them from the moment they think just for one second anything you say could have antisemetic reasons behind them. From that moment, they label you as such, and everything you say will be seen in that context. But Im getting OT here...


...we merely ask for evidence of these claims. If the evidence does not exist....then the claim may as well not even be given voice. It's baseless speculation.
And why does that not apply to Renata's claim I said Jews where warned by the Mossad ? Somehow she is given the benefit of the doubt, even though I never said it, in spite of all her quotes, and most of my original posts contradict this claim completely. Where are these skeptics when you need them ? :confused:

This myth is meant to do nothing less than demonize Jews and spread fear and hatred.
Well, by saying what Im about to say, I will probably confirm my newly obtained label as "antisemetic" and pour oil on the fire, but why is it if one claims:
1) The muslims where behind 9/11, this is okay.
2) Iraq was behind 9/11, people call you GW Bush and give you a free hand to invade Iraq.
3) Extremists within the US themselves where behind 9/11, you are simply called a lunatic and ignored
4) Israeli where behind 9/11 you'r a holocaust denier and demonize Jews.
5) You dont claim any of the above, you still end up being called a holocaust denier.
FWIW, I'd much rather believe 3 than 4, but I cant help but notice that any reasonable debate on 4 would be strictly impossible.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken
1) The muslims where behind 9/11, this is okay.

It's okay because there is a great deal of evidence from various sources.

2) Iraq was behind 9/11, people call you GW Bush and give you a free hand to invade Iraq.

There is some evidence that Iraq suports international terrorism in general...and a few bits that it supports Al Qaida in particular. So this is not without merit.

3) Extremists within the US themselves where behind 9/11, you are simply called a lunatic and ignored

There is no evidence of this at all.

4) Israeli where behind 9/11 you'r a holocaust denier and demonize Jews.

There is no evidence of this at all,...with the added stigma of a naked attempt to foster fear and hatred of Jews.

5) You dont claim any of the above, you still end up being called a holocaust denier.

You danced around the issues. You used their tired old tactics. You repeated an anti-semitic conspiracy theory/myth which has been debunked over and over again. You gave it a different spin....but this does nothing to change the facts. You get what you deserve.

FWIW, I'd much rather believe 3 than 4, but I cant help but notice that any reasonable debate on 4 would be strictly impossible. [/B]

Nope...but given the history of slander against Jewish folks the evidence would have to be compelling.

-zilla

[gnome]

I would point out that Scared Chicken admits his friend/relative might not have been telling the truth about being warned.

I am not sure what else we can expect him to say, he made a lot of speculations but I don't read that he says he knew his speculations were correct. The only thing he insists on as a fact in this "warning" situation, is that he spoke to his friend/relative who said they were warned beforehand.

[Wayne Grabert]

Originally posted by rikzilla

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) Extremists within the US themselves where behind 9/11, you are simply called a lunatic and ignored
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no evidence of this at all.

Ahem, the hijackers were foreign nationals living in the US.

Here is a Guardian article on al Qaida's terror trail (http://www.observer.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,597009,00.html) providing strong evidence of their responsibility.

I was trying to find information on the Atta warning that was ignored when I came across this article (http://www.geocities.com/johnathanrgalt/Was_the_US_government_alerted.html) that claims that the US government was warned prior to 9/11 by Mossad and other foreign intelligence agencies that a major terrorist attack was about to occur. So this refutes the idea that Israel was withholding information from the United States.
The governments of at least four countries—Germany, Egypt, Russia and Israel—gave specific warnings to the US of an impending terrorist attack in the months preceding September 11. These alerts, while fragmentary, not only combined to foretell the scale of the attack and its main target, but indicated that hijacked commercial aircraft would be the weapon of choice.

According to an article in one of the major daily newspapers in Germany, published just after the destruction of the World Trade Center, the German intelligence service BND told both US and Israeli intelligence agencies in June that Middle East terrorists were “planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.”

The newspaper cited unnamed German intelligence sources, who said that the information came through Echelon, the US-controlled system of 120 satellites which monitors all worldwide electronic communications. Echelon is operated jointly by the United States, Canada, Britain, Australia and New Zealand, although its existence is not officially admitted. (Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, September 14, 2001)

The government of Egypt sent an urgent warning to the US June 13, based on a video made by Osama bin Laden. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak told the French newspaper Le Figaro that the warning was originally delivered just before the G-8 summit in Genoa. It was taken seriously enough that antiaircraft batteries were stationed around Christopher Columbus Airport in the Italian city. According to Mubarak, bin Laden “spoke of assassinating President Bush and other heads of state in Genoa. It was a question of an airplane stuffed with explosives. These precautions then had been taken.” (Source: New York Times, September 26, 2001, “2 Leaders Tell of Plot to Kill Bush in Genoa,” by David Sanger)

According to Russian press reports, Russian intelligence notified the CIA during the summer that 25 terrorist pilots had been specifically training for suicide missions. In an interview September 15 with MSNBC, Russian President Vladimir Putin confirmed that he had ordered Russian intelligence in August to warn the US government “in the strongest possible terms” of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings. (Source: From The Wilderness web site; MSNBC).

The London-based Sunday Telegraph —an arch-conservative newspaper usually highly supportive of the Bush administration—reported that the Israeli intelligence service Mossad had delivered a warning to the FBI and CIA in August that as many as 200 followers of Osama bin Laden were slipping into the country to prepare “a major assault on the United States.” The advisory spoke of a “large-scale target” in which Americans would be “very vulnerable.” The Los Angeles Times cited unnamed US officials confirming this Mossad warning had been received. (Source: Sunday Telegraph, September 16, 2001, “Israeli security issued urgent warning to CIA of large-scale terror attacks,” by David Wastell and Philip Jacobson; Los Angeles Times, September 20, 2001, “Officials Told of ‘Major Assault’ Plans,” by Richard A. Serrano and John-Thor Dahlburg)

The Independent, a liberal daily in Great Britain, published an article asserting the US government “was warned repeatedly that a devastating attack on the United States was on its way.” The Independent cited an interview given by Osama bin Laden to a London-based Arabic-language newspaper, al-Quds al-Arabi, in late August. About the same time, tighter security measures were ordered at the World Trade Center, for unexplained reasons. (Source: Independent, September 17, 2001, “Bush did not heed several warnings of attack,” by Andrew Gumbel)

Despite this series of alerts, no US intelligence agency issued any warning of a possible attack on a target on US territory in the months leading up to September 11. The CIA and FBI had issued warnings about likely attacks on American military bases or embassies in the Middle East, Europe and Asia. On September 7 the US Department of State issued a worldwide alert about an impending attack by bin Laden followers, although it was focused on US-related targets in east Asia, especially Japan, not within the US itself. As the ranking Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Richard Shelby, admitted, “This obviously was a failure of great dimension. We had no specific warning of the US being attacked.”

Moreover, the FBI’s decision to take no action on Zacarias Moussaoui must be considered in the light of this continuous stream of warnings from overseas. The US government was being repeatedly alerted to the danger of devastating attacks using hijacked commercial aircraft, yet the FBI decided to conduct no serious investigation into a man, believed by French intelligence to be linked to Osama bin Laden, who wanted to learn how to steer a 747 jumbo jet, but not to take off or land. Moussaoui was not even turned over to the FBI by the Immigration and Naturalization Service until after September 11.


Here is the section on Atta:

Even more extraordinary is the treatment of Mohammed Atta, the alleged ringleader of the hijackings. Atta was reportedly an object of attention for the Egyptian, German and American police and yet traveled without hindrance between Europe and America throughout 2000 and 2001.

According to a report on the German public television channel ARD, Atta was the subject of telephone monitoring by the Egyptian secret service, which had learned that he had made at least one recent visit to Afghanistan from his home in Hamburg, Germany. The German program, broadcast November 23, said that the American FBI had monitored Atta’s movements for several months in 2000, when he traveled several times from Hamburg to Frankfurt and bought large quantities of chemicals potentially usable in making explosives. Atta’s name was also mentioned in a Hamburg phone call between Islamic fundamentalists monitored by the German police in 1999. The BBC, commenting on the German report, said, “The evidence ... reinforces concerns that the international intelligence community may have known more about Atta before September 11 than was previously thought, but had failed to act.” (Source: British Broadcasting Corporation report, November 26, 2001)

Atta came to the attention of US authorities on several occasions in the course of 2001. In January he was allowed to reenter the United States after a trip to Germany, despite the fact that he was in violation of his visa status. He landed in Miami January 10 on a flight from Madrid, on a tourist visa, although he told immigration inspectors that he was taking flying lessons in the US, for which an M-1 student visa is required. Jeanne Butterfield, executive director of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, told the Washington Post, “Nine times out of 10, they would have told him to go back and file [for that status] overseas. You’re not supposed to come in as a visitor for pleasure and go to work or school.” The recipient of this indulgent treatment, it must be emphasized, had previously been under FBI surveillance for stockpiling bomb-making materials! (Source: Washington Post, October 28, 2001)

According to a report on Canadian television, Atta had been implicated in a terrorist bombing in Israel and the information passed on to the United States before he was first issued a tourist visa. (Source: Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, September 14, 2001, reported by Diana Swain from Vero Beach, Florida)

Atta made other trips to Europe, returning to Germany in May and visiting Spain in July, each time returning to the United States and being admitted by US customs and immigration. Another British press report notes that Atta “was under surveillance between January and May last year after he was reportedly observed buying large quantities of chemicals in Frankfurt, apparently for the production of explosives and for biological warfare. The US agents reported to have trailed Atta are said to have failed to inform the German authorities about their investigation. The disclosure that Atta was being trailed by police long before 11 September raises the question why the attacks could not have been prevented with the man’s arrest.” (Source: The Observer , September 30, 2001)

During the summer of 2001, Atta received a wire transfer of $100,000 from an account in Pakistan allegedly controlled by a representative of Osama bin Laden. This transfer has been cited repeatedly by US officials as proof that bin Laden inspired the September 11 attacks, but they have not explained how such a large sum of money could be transmitted with impunity to someone under FBI surveillance. Another remarkable fact: according to an Indian newspaper, the man who actually authorized the wire transfer to Atta was General Mahmud Ahmed, head of the Pakistani intelligence agency ISI, the principal sponsor of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. Ahmed was forced to resign after India made his role public and it was confirmed by the FBI. Coincidentally or not, Ahmed was in Washington, DC on September 11, for consultations with American intelligence officials. (Source: CNN report, October 1, 2001; The Times of India, October 11, 2001).

Maybe my memory is faulty, but what I seem to recall reading about Atta (or was it another of the hijackers?) that is not mentioned above is that he attended a meeting in Indonesia (someplace else?) conducted by some senior (though not top echelon) al Qaida figures. The information was given to two CIA agents who forwarded it to Washington--where it gathered dust till after 9/11. The information was never shared with the FBI.

Does anyone else remember this story?

[Scared Chicken]

I would point out that Scared Chicken admits his friend/relative might not have been telling the truth about being warned.

I am not sure what else we can expect him to say, he made a lot of speculations but I don't read that he says he knew his speculations were correct. The only thing he insists on as a fact in this "warning" situation, is that he spoke to his friend/relative who said they were warned beforehand.

Thank you for pointing that out.
Now if someone would also confirm I never claimed or even insinuated the Mossad knew exactly what was about to happen, and/or warned (only) Jews, and/or that the Mossad or some other Israeli organisation would be behind the 9/11 attacks, it would make me even happier. And if those who accused me of antisemitism because of this, or because of whatever reason, would appologize, it would make my day.
But... I guess that too much to hope for. Once a suspicion of antisemtism has been raised (even if completelty unfounded), one will carry the stigma forever it seems.

[Scared Chicken]

I came across this article (http://www.geocities.com/johnathanrgalt/Was_the_US_government_alerted.html) that claims that the US government was warned prior to 9/11 by Mossad and other foreign intelligence agencies that a major terrorist attack was about to occur. So this refutes the idea that Israel was withholding information from the United States.

I don't think anyone ever said the Mossad withheld any information, at least not in this thread. Nevertheless, very interesting stories... As I said before, I try to keep my mind open to the possibility 9/11 was either orchestrated by or at least allowed to happen by people within the US who had everything to win with such a terrorist attack. And call me a lunatic for it, but the people who drafted the NPAC reports could definately be counted among them, after all they even stated themselves a "new pearl harbour" would act as a "catalyst" to allow them to implement or accelerate their plans.

This being said, I have some serious difficulties tying this with the stories you quoted. Reading them in the context of such an 'internal, US conspiracy', it would mean people where involved from both the CIA and the FBI but also "humble" immigration inspectors... I can't believe a crime on this scale could involve this many people that would keep silent about it. If the attack was orchestrated from within the US, I would rather think a very small, rich, influantial group "outsourced" the attack, provided the financial means, but bribing eg immigration inspectors to allow Atta to enter the country would seem utter nonsense. You cant expect such people to shut up about it after 9/11 happened.

Just my 2 cents though..

[Wayne Grabert]

Originally posted by Scared Chicken

I don't think anyone ever said the Mossad withheld any information, at least not in this thread.
I don't mean to imply that you made such an explicit claim, but what you did say would imply to some that Mossad had specific information that it withheld from everyone but certain people who worked at the WTC. However, I was addressing the topic of the thread rather than you specifically.

Originally posted by Scared Chicken
As I said before, I try to keep my mind open to the possibility 9/11 was either orchestrated by or at least allowed to happen by people within the US who had everything to win with such a terrorist attack.
There is nothing wrong with considering this possibility as information is gathered, but it is another matter to make allegations without a sufficient basis.

The problems with our anti-terrorist infrastructure predate the Bush administration. However, the Bush administration is guilty of allowing the problems to persist--and even failing to acknowledge that there were problems. (The day before the 9/11 attacks, John Ashcroft turned down an FBI request that they had been making for several months for an additional $50 million to beef up and modernize their anti-terrorism division.) Indeed, the evidence is that anti-terrorism efforts softened during the first eight months of the Bush administration. However, one must consider that this laxation was due to ineptitude rather than nefarious design. Unless I am given solid evidence that the Bush administration had such designs, I will continue to favor the "ineptitude" explanation. It is consistent with nearly everything else about the Bush League Administration.

As far as the "Pearl Harbor" reference in the PNAC literature, my thinking is that they were waiting for an opportunity, not actively trying to bring about such a cataclysm. That such an opportunity would come about eventually was easy enough to assume. Al Qaida had bombed two of our embassies and blew a hole in the USS Cole towards the end of the Clinton administration. A couple of major terrorist operations that were supposed to take place on our soil on January 1, 2000, were thwarted. That makes the Bush administration's and the FBI's negligence all the more shocking and which feed conspiracy theories.

[Scared Chicken]

There is nothing wrong with considering this possibility as information is gathered, but it is another matter to make allegations without a sufficient basis.

Glad to find at least someone willing to consider the possibility. Of course there is not enough evidence for allegations, but if no one would even want to concider the possibility, its unlikely any evidence -one way or the other- would ever be found.

As far as the "Pearl Harbor" reference in the PNAC literature, my thinking is that they were waiting for an opportunity, not actively trying to bring about such a cataclysm.

The PNAC as such maybe not; but I dont find it extremely far fetched to think that a group of US elite with similar ideas and sufficient interest (be it oil, weapons, power or just some screwed form of "patriotism") would go further than silently "hoping" for such an event to happen. The very extistence of the PNAC and its publicly available documents, fuels my hypothesis that an even extremer, but much less visible group of US elite may very well exist, and might very well be capable of doing what few people would even want to consider possible.
Also, given the nature of PNAC and its members, it wouldnt be at all unlikely if those same people (if they exist) where either member of the PNAC, or at least strongly sympathized with their ideas.

One last thought: if such a conspiracy would actually have taken place, its not likely Bush would have known about it, or know the details. That wouldnt be smart. If ever this would come out, it would be in their interests to at least still have a president in power with clean hands, and that couldnt be blamed. It is also noteworthy that on the PNAC website, you can find the statement of principles underscribed by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush, but not GW Bush..