Free Will

[0rz]

I don't know if this has been done before, but you'll have to excuse me, being new and all (I wonder how many times I can pull that phrase off before I lose my newbieness :D ).

If God is unable to tamper with free will, why does he let us know he exists? Through the bible at least.
Certainly letting us know he's there and watching inspires those that listen to be good so they can get to heaven/avoid hell, but then, are they being good because they have heaven/hell in mind or because they're just that nice?
What I guess I'm saying is, if he can tamper with free will in such a way, why can't he simply just go at it and cleanse everyone?

Hopefully I haven't messed up my thoughts from my walk home from a friends, it seemed so much clearer then.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by 0rz
I don't know if this has been done before, but you'll have to excuse me, being new and all (I wonder how many times I can pull that phrase off before I lose my newbieness :D ).

If God is unable to tamper with free will, why does he let us know he exists? Through the bible at least.
Certainly letting us know he's there and watching inspires those that listen to be good so they can get to heaven/avoid hell, but then, are they being good because they have heaven/hell in mind or because they're just that nice?
What I guess I'm saying is, if he can tamper with free will in such a way, why can't he simply just go at it and cleanse everyone?

Hopefully I haven't messed up my thoughts from my walk home from a friends, it seemed so much clearer then.

Assuming god exists and is acting as you suggest, then...

Perhaps god is culling the crop, seeking his heir.

[Operaider]

What I never understood was,

If God created us, then he already set us on our path through life.

He gave us the genes, he gave us the enviroment, and apparently influences other aspects of out life.

If we are formed through nature and nurture and God provides both, then shouldn't he be responsible for the results?

[lifegazer]

Originally posted by 0rz
If God is unable to tamper with free will, why does he let us know he exists?
If 'God' - being omnipresent exists, then nothing else can.
Only God exists and 'we' are the illusion/dream being held by God.
Hence, God's free-will is not in doubt.

[Donks]

If god is omniscient too, then he can't have free will. He already knows exactly what he will do for the rest of eternity. If he uses his omnipotence to change that, then his omniscience goes away :)

[lifegazer]

Originally posted by Donks
If god is omniscient too, then he can't have free will. He already knows exactly what he will do for the rest of eternity. If he uses his omnipotence to change that, then his omniscience goes away :)
If God is omniscient, then God must know how to create a scenario/dream whereby It forgets itself within the dream that It creates for itself.
Even when that scenario is created, God's will (belief) - even within the dream - is fulfilled.

[Donks]

An omniscient being can't forget squat. It's against the rules.

[lifegazer]

Originally posted by Donks
An omniscient being can't forget squat. It's against the rules.
To say that an omniscient and omnipotent being cannot create a specific scenario, is to contradict the attributes of omniscience and omnipotence.
Such a God must be able to create such scenarios/dreams, by logical default.
Therefore, such a God could create dreams whereby God loses Itself within those dreams.

I suspect that your incessant smile is about to turn downwards.
You simply have not thought-through the absoluteness of 'omniscience' and 'omnipotence'.
Take heart in the fact that few before you have.

[Correa Neto]

So, god is omnipotent but incompetent to the point of loosing itself in a dream...

[Donks]

Ok then, lets see if you give the omnipotent god his full due.
If 'God' - being omnipresent exists, then nothing else can.
Are you saying that an omnipotent god cannot create another being?
Oh, why do you comment on my smile? Does it bother you? Here's another :)

[Jellby]

Originally posted by lifegazer
To say that an omniscient and omnipotent being cannot create a specific scenario, is to contradict the attributes of omniscience and omnipotence.

And, since pure mathematical logic is above anything real or unreal, that means an omniscient and omnipotent being as defined just cannot exist.

Does the barber who shaves only those (and all of them) who don't shave themselves shave himself? Clearly, this leads to a logical contradiction, solved by understanding that such a barber can't exist.

The same happens with an omniscient, omnipotent, free-will respecting, jealous, forgiving, vindictive and resentful god. This definition gives rise to so many logical contradictions that it can't exist. It doesn't mean god doesn't exist, just that god, as defined is impossible, maybe he is not so absolutely omnipotent, but almost, and maybe he is the most powerful being conceivable, but that's not "omnipotent"

[lifegazer]

Originally posted by Donks
Are you saying that an omnipotent god cannot create another being?

It can create the appearance of other beings. An omnipresent God can only create the appearance of things.

Oh, why do you comment on my smile? Does it bother you? Here's another :)
Smugness does bother me, yes.

[Donks]

Originally posted by lifegazer
It can create the appearance of other beings. An omnipresent God can only create the appearance of things.

So god is not omnipotent.

Smugness does bother me, yes.
A smile does not mean smugness. Means I'm happy. You don't want me to be happY? Don't worry, be happy. :)

[Operaider]

Originally posted by Donks
A smile does not mean smugness. Means I'm happy. You don't want me to be happY? Don't worry, be happy. :) ok, that was a little smug :)

[Z]

It also seems that lg forgets another alternative with 'omnipresence' - the concept that all things within the universe are parts of 'God' just as our cells are part of 'us'. lg thinks that omnipresence infers that nothing else can exist; he simply never considered, I think, the idea that God may simply be a composite creature, comprised of all-that-is.

Omnipotence and omniscience is clearly impossible, even for God.

But omnipresence actually would require some sort of spatial reality; otherwise, God could have no 'presence' at all.

[Correa Neto]

Maybe there are some tortous logicall paths around this. But this does not automaically implys that there is a god.

I think that the mere fact that something is logic does not imply that its true.

The only concepts of god that can survive some critical tought are (some of) those that can be labelled "god-in-the-gaps". And such concepts are quite likely utterly irrelevant, since such god would actually be just an observer.

edited for spelling

[Robin]

Originally posted by Correa Neto
Maybe there are some tortous logicall paths around this. But this does not automaically implys that there is a god.

I think that the mere fact that something is logic does not imply that its true.

The only concepts of god that can survive some critical tought are (some of) those that can be labelled "god-in-the-gaps". And such concepts are quite likely utterly irrelevant, since such god would actually be just an observer.

edited for spelling

There are many torturous paths with decisions on definitions at each junction. But their is none that anyone has shown me that leads to the conclusion that God exists.

[Correa Neto]

Note that I wrote "survive some critical tought".

And again, my point merely was that something may be logicall but this does not implys its real or true. Someone may come with a logical argument, but it does not mean that its real.

Take the "god-in-the-gaps", for example. It may be the case. There may be a god hiding in the gaps (that are becoming narrower with time). The key is the word may. That just that - may.

So far, its the best theists managed to present.

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by lifegazer

Smugness does bother me, yes.

How do you reconcile this with:

I suspect that your incessant smile is about to turn downwards.
You simply have not thought-through the absoluteness of 'omniscience' and 'omnipotence'.
Take heart in the fact that few before you have.

?

That sounds pretty smug to me.

[Robin]

Originally posted by lifegazer
To say that an omniscient and omnipotent being cannot create a specific scenario, is to contradict the attributes of omniscience and omnipotence.
Such a God must be able to create such scenarios/dreams, by logical default.
Therefore, such a God could create dreams whereby God loses Itself within those dreams.

I suspect that your incessant smile is about to turn downwards.
You simply have not thought-through the absoluteness of 'omniscience' and 'omnipotence'.
Take heart in the fact that few before you have.

I think that it is you that have not thought it through. You are right when you say "To say that an omniscient and omnipotent being cannot create a specific scenario, is to contradict the attributes of omniscience and omnipotence"

But once God loses any power (even voluntarily) He stops being omnipotent and omniscient and therefore fails to meet the definition of being a God. The idea of omnipotence therefore leads to a contradiction - there can be no such thing.

[lifegazer]

Originally posted by Robin
But once God loses any power (even voluntarily)

What power does God lose?
To lose Oneself within a dream does not necessitate the loss of God's power.

[Yaotl]

Originally posted by lifegazer
What power does God lose?
To lose Oneself within a dream does not necessitate the loss of God's power.

He would no longer be omniscient then. He would always know where he is and how to get out of it.

[uruk]

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Originally posted by lifegazer
It can create the appearance of other beings. An omnipresent God can only create the appearance of things.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So god is not omnipotent.


I just wanted to bump this. LG may have overlooked this little tid bit.

[crimresearch]

To address the OP, *If* one buys into the Bible story, God can affect free will, as He did in Exodus, where Pharoah was going to do the right thing, and God 'hardened his heart'.

So what good is it to make humans with a free will that can be overrridden, AND to make them so that they are easily seduced by God's favorite archangel Lucifer into going against God?

Maybe eternity in Heaven is as boring as all get out, and God needs these petty amusements.

[Robin]

Originally posted by lifegazer
What power does God lose?
To lose Oneself within a dream does not necessitate the loss of God's power.

I fail to see the relevance of where One loses Oneself, within a dream or somewhere else.

Losing Oneself implies that there is a situation that One is not in control of.

Omnipotence implies that One is in control of every possible situation.

The concept of omnipotence leads to a contradiction and therefore there is no such thing.

[Riddick]

Originally posted by crimresearch
To address the OP, *If* one buys into the Bible story, God can affect free will, as He did in Exodus, where Pharoah was going to do the right thing, and God 'hardened his heart'.

So what good is it to make humans with a free will that can be overrridden, AND to make them so that they are easily seduced by God's favorite archangel Lucifer into going against God?

Maybe eternity in Heaven is as boring as all get out, and God needs these petty amusements.
This is why God created you. And, I'm sure he does find you amusing at times.

[thatguywhojuggles]

Originally posted by crimresearch

Maybe eternity in Heaven is as boring as all get out, and God needs these petty amusements.

"It is sometimes hard, in times like these, to understand God's way. Why would he allow nine innocent people to be run down in the prime of their lives by a senior citizen who, perhaps, shouldn't be driving? It is then that we must understand, God's sense of humor is very different from our own. He does not laugh at the simple "man walks into a bar" joke. No, God needs complex irony and subtle farcical twists that seem macabre to you and me. All that we can hope for is that God got his good laugh and a tragedy such as this will never happen again." -Father Maxi, South Park Episode 710 "Grey Dawn"

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Riddick
This is why God created you. And, I'm sure he does find you amusing at times.


BZZTT!!! Wrong answer...i'm not Jewish, but thanks for playing.

Maybe you should choose another category, since you obviously have no knowledge of Scripture.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by 0rz
If God is unable to tamper with free will,

Why do you think God is unable to tamper with free will? As noted above, he has done it on many occasions, at least according to the bible. Moreover, even in theory he can tamper with free will if he wanted to.

You have a false premise.

[burgerjockey]

I have heard from some thiests that what is meant by omniscience isn't that God actually knows everything, but that he knows all possibilities... That supposedly gets around the fact that God would know his or our exact futures. I can see how if that were true why God would want to create us and actually see how it would turn out since he doesn't know exactly.

P.S. I am not defending a position for God just expressing thoughts I have come across.