Shaolin Spear Monk

[CFLarsen]

http://pics.jp.dk/nybillede/images/25079.jpg

A Shaolin monk, resting on spears.

Explanations?

[steenkh]

Some questions: What is this monk's weight? 60 kilos? There are 5 spears. That gives 12 kilos on each spear. What is the force necessary for a spear to break the skin?

[H3LL]

Isn't it the same principle used with the bed-of-nails?

Those spears aren't even sharp.

There is a nice bed-of-nails site here (http://www.darylscience.com/Demos/BON.html).

I wish there were more teachers like this one.

His Newton's Laws Quickies (http://www.darylscience.com/Demos/1stLawQuickies.html) are quite good too for a young audience.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
A Shaolin monk, resting on spears.

Explanations?
Ch'i, and the Mother Goddess.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by H3LL
Isn't it the same principle used with the bed-of-nails?

Those spears aren't even sharp.

There is a nice bed-of-nails site here (http://www.darylscience.com/Demos/BON.html).

I wish there were more teachers like this one.

His Newton's Laws Quickies (http://www.darylscience.com/Demos/1stLawQuickies.html) are quite good too for a young audience.

The trick about a bed-of-nails is that the many nails even out the pressure. That's not what we see here.

But I agree that the spears aren't sharp - if they were, they would break his skin.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by steenkh
Some questions: What is this monk's weight? 60 kilos? There are 5 spears. That gives 12 kilos on each spear. What is the force necessary for a spear to break the skin?

Good point. I wouldn't even put him at 60 kilos.

[Operaider]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Good point. I wouldn't even put him at 60 kilos. Plus, is that a spear in the middle?

It looks to me like it's made out of wood, where the others are metal.

[Xeriar]

Originally posted by steenkh
Some questions: What is this monk's weight? 60 kilos? There are 5 spears. That gives 12 kilos on each spear. What is the force necessary for a spear to break the skin?

Skin is pretty resilient to being cut. What really 'cuts' is actually getting pierced or sheared.

If those spears aren't sharp, wooo...

I played knives as a kid. I messed up once, and the wound didn't even bleed.

[Kevin_Lowe]

I observe that the monk is tilted feet downwards, so that more of his weight is on his leg-spears than his chest-spears. His legs are also covered by his monk pants.

Perhaps part of the effect is facilitated by pads of some sort on his thighs that spread out the pressure of the spears enough to make it relatively comfortable?

That said, holding the monk with his legs pointing down slightly and his face up to the audience is good theatre. It allows you to see his face and all the spears. So it's not in itself suspicious.

[Wudang]

You might not even need thigh pads - thigh muscle can be incredibly dense and shaolin training uses a lot of low stances that build up very strong thigh muscles. This guy seems to have every muscle clenched.
This photo doesn't show it well but the spears are not sharp. I have sharper spoons. This is clearer when they do the trick with a "ring" of spears pushed into his waist from all angles. Except that the monks are pushing down with the lead hand to bend the spear and just resting the spear "points" on the guys pelvis.
Again a clearer view of the wooden post (?) in the middle would be interesting.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
http://pics.jp.dk/nybillede/images/25079.jpg

A Shaolin monk, resting on spears.

Explanations?

If there is anything super about the Shaolin, it is that they are super FIT. The discipline they show is truly amazing. I remember most of all from the show, the section where they have a young boy and an old man on stage together. The old guy can do everything the kid does, including the SPLITS.

I think if there is a "trick" here, it is similar to the lifting a seated person by four people using just their fingers. It is about weight distribution and balance. There may even be a technique to harden the skin somewhat. Think of the skin on the hands of a fisherman compared to the average office worker. My father had hands like leather. Guitarists use white spirit to help toughen their fingertips which initially bleed from friction on the strings. After a while, there is quite a hard pad built up and playing becomes painless.

Great showmen, the Shaolin! I wonder if there are any stats to show if they live longer and healthier lives than others. I certainly admire their commitment. No need for woo explanations for anything they do, though.

I've just remembered the "strongmen" who pull trucks with hooks in their skin. Skin must be pretty tough. Again the hooks distribute the weight.

And I've seen a girl balance like the monk on a single sharp spear in a magic show, and then slip to "impalement". Now, THIS IS a trick -- a very clever one that uses special equipment and requires a good degree of balance and strength on the assistant's part. I think it is traditionally called the broomstick balance trick, since that is how it started. Ingenious!

[steenkh]

On the shows I have seen on TV the monks throw the swords and spears to imbed them on a wooden plank in order to show that they are indeed sharp. I do not remember having seen exactly the number, though.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Fact of the matter is though... there are 4 spears making very small imprints in the monk and 1 wooden dowel 3-4" in diameter making a big imprint in the monk's body.

It's pretty obvious to me that the wooden dowel is taking the majority of the weight and the spear tips are mainly for balance.

[T'ai Chi]

I'd wager he wouldn't try it with Ginzus...

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by steenkh
On the shows I have seen on TV the monks throw the swords and spears to imbed them on a wooden plank in order to show that they are indeed sharp. I do not remember having seen exactly the number, though.

Just how soft was the wood? Hmm?

Didn't someone (Randi?) explain about how these Kung Fu Masters break planks, but fail to tell their audience that the planks are extremely brittle?

[Mercutio]

This thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46646&highlight=shaolin+physics) purports to have some video clips from Canada's Discovery Channel on this topic. There was a thread here last year on Shao-lin physics, but I can't find it. I think the clips are the same. They show the Monk show, then the physicists explains it. On the thread I link, it is currently in the last post, most of the way down.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by Mercutio
This thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46646&highlight=shaolin+physics) purports to have some video clips from Canada's Discovery Channel on this topic. There was a thread here last year on Shao-lin physics, but I can't find it. I think the clips are the same. They show the Monk show, then the physicists explains it. On the thread I link, it is currently in the last post, most of the way down.

Saw the video... spears are pretty blunt and quite rounded. Monk was put on the spears (5 of them) all at once... and left on only for a second or two...

[richardm]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
Fact of the matter is though... there are 4 spears making very small imprints in the monk and 1 wooden dowel 3-4" in diameter making a big imprint in the monk's body.


But is that middle one actually a dowel, or is it another spear that's reflecting differently due to it's angle? I'm not convinced that's a piece of wood, to be honest.

[The Don]

Looks very spear-like to me

[sackett]

Originally posted by steenkh
On the shows I have seen on TV the monks throw the swords and spears to imbed them on a wooden plank in order to show that they are indeed sharp. I do not remember having seen exactly the number, though.

Knife throwers often use weapons with rounded points. They stick well enough in softwood targets, and are safer for "human target" stunts. (Oddly, you can often drive a thrown knife deeper into a target than you can thrust it.)

My "big ugly butterknife" throwers would probably bounce off that monk -- althoug he'd suffer some superficial cuts and yell bloody murder. Probably come for me with fell intent, too; them Shaolins is mighty sudden men.

[patnray]

Originally posted by steenkh
On the shows I have seen on TV the monks throw the swords and spears to imbed them on a wooden plank in order to show that they are indeed sharp. I do not remember having seen exactly the number, though.
Good example of misdirection. Shows how strongly the spears are thrust at the wood, not how sharp they are. Carpenters know that dull nails penetrate hard woods (like oak) better than sharp nails (which tend to split the wood). To show how sharp an edge is, show me it cutting something effortlessly, like, say, a piece of fabric falling across the blade or on the point...

[sf108]

FYI, genuine Shaolin monks do not travel around the world doing showcases. They live inside the temple in Henan, China. What you're seeing are martial artists who live around the temple, who probably follows an ex-Shaolin master (or fake), who have shaved their heads, and wore the classic orange shaolin robes.

Even though they're as powerful and skillful as the original monks, they're still not the real mccoy.

One thing that interests me is the guy who can throw a needle through a glass panel (even though it's quite think).

[c4ts]

Real Scotsmen live in Glasglow. :D

But seriously, what makes you think what these people are doing are any different in that temple?

[sf108]

Well firstly, the monks inside the temple devote their entire life to the protection, and passing on of the secrets of shaolin martial arts. Some however, choose to go there for several years, learn the secrets, then become bodyguards or masters.

The fact is, only a few of these original monks exist in the world today. And they don't travel the world to showoff or display their skills. They're much more convservative and low profile.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally posted by sf108
Well firstly, the monks inside the temple devote their entire life to the protection, and passing on of the secrets of shaolin martial arts. Some however, choose to go there for several years, learn the secrets, then become bodyguards or masters.


The Shaolin Temple is a theme park run by the Chinese government. The temples that the myths are based on were wiped out ages ago.

The shaolin monks are great acrobats and entertainers, but that's it.


The fact is, only a few of these original monks exist in the world today. And they don't travel the world to showoff or display their skills. They're much more convservative and low profile.

There are no "original monks", unless they are hundreds of years old or something.

I believe the needle-through-glass thing is a conjuring trick, by the way, not a display of martial skill. We don't discuss the details of such things on this forum, by request of Randi, but that's what I'm told.

[Soapy Sam]

Assuming no trick photography, we have a picture of a very fit , light, man, held on five objects. One object, held near his centre of mass, is held on a very short grip, to avoid off-centre loading. (wobble). That is sound mechanics, not chi or magic. Whether the centre support is broader than the rest is not clear from the photo- but we know it's not sharp, because he is not bleeding or impaled.

Throwing a needle through a sheet of plywood would be deeply impressive. Throwing a needle through a sheet of glass would be an impossibility.

[Ashles]

Throwing a needle through a sheet of glass would be an impossibility.
Unless it was a really big needle.

It reminds me of the old joke - the pen is mightier than the sword, if it's a really big pen and a really tiny sword.


But seriously are there any links to this alleged needle/glass feat? It sounds really cool, and also impossible.

Edited because I got the joke a bit wrong.

[Wudang]

The Henan Shaolin Temple lost what credibility it had when took money from Doshin So to mount the Nihon Shorinji Kempo placque, lending legitimacy to a claim that was disproved in Japanese courts and which forced the style to add "Nihon" to its name as it's basically jujitsu.
FYI - Shorin is the japanese pronunciation of Shaolin. Hihon Shorinji Kempo translates as Japanese Shaolin Temples Way of the Fist.

[T'ai Chi]

Physics professor Davild Wiley was able to rub his thumb across the top of the spear over and over, so I think the spear is very dull.

[treble_head]

Is it to fantastic to assume that this person is balancing himself on sharp spear points? yes. it certainly is.

Do you imagine you could do that without screaming bloody murder? I doubt it.

I have taken practice arrows and broke them with just my neck. It's simple science. Watch Penn & Teller's Bullsh**t. But, however, I did get to meet and befriend a siaolun (shaolin) monk. He had a waxwood spear and I tried to my own end to break (the point wasn't sharp, but I nearly died trying to break it, to no avail) , and he broke it without a sweat.

People need to stop being skeptical as to what they do and understand that there are people who can do things you could never imagine.

You CAN reform your bones to take a hit. You CAN adjsut your muscles to be less sensitive to pain. I can flip a butterfly knife to no end with my right hand. If I try similar things with my left, I will hold my hand from pain for hours.

Skepticizm is one thing, believe too much in skeptecizm, and you become a nihlist, a la The Big Lebowski. Take a middle path.

[Ashles]

Originally posted by treble_head
You CAN reform your bones to take a hit. You CAN adjsut your muscles to be less sensitive to pain. I can flip a butterfly knife to no end with my right hand. If I try similar things with my left, I will hold my hand from pain for hours.

Skepticizm is one thing, believe too much in skeptecizm, and you become a nihlist, a la The Big Lebowski. Take a middle path.
I don't really understand this post. You can't train your skin to be puncture proof. You can toughen it in places with callouses but you can see that isn't the case here.

I think treble head you need to realise that many of these amazing alleged martial arts abilities are actually trickery, misdirection and clever use of physics.

BTW it's spelt 'scepticism' or 'skepticism'.

[Hastur]

Originally posted by treble_head
Skepticizm is one thing, believe too much in skeptecizm, and you become a nihlist, a la The Big Lebowski. Take a middle path. [/B]

ERROR: Golden Mean Fallacy. Please reconsider views or explain why the middle is the proper course in this situation.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by sf108
Well firstly, the monks inside the temple devote their entire life to the protection, and passing on of the secrets of shaolin martial arts. Some however, choose to go there for several years, learn the secrets, then become bodyguards or masters.

The fact is, only a few of these original monks exist in the world today. And they don't travel the world to showoff or display their skills. They're much more convservative and low profile.

Mmmm..sorry, no.

The Chinese government realized quite some time ago that a profitable idea would be to run the temple as a performance for tourists.

No secrets, no masters, no original monks, no hidden indoor training...just employees putting on a show.

As far as the original picture, Claus is again just trolling his woo-woo....the mechanics of that sort of 'Iron Shirt' have been discussed here before...it is body training and physics to create an illusion.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by crimresearch
As far as the original picture, Claus is again just trolling his woo-woo....

I wasn't aware that I was "trolling" my "woo-woo". Could you point out where I do that?

[Thomas]

The center spear (remember we don't know the actual shape) is apparently made of wood alright. Three assumptions support this conclusion:

1) There's no highlights on the center spear. It should've been dark-grey when the highlights are missing, not brown.

2) None of the other spears are reflecting colors, although at least one of them is held in - somewhat - the same angle.

3) Notice the guy who's supporting the (wooden) spear with his hands, while none of the other spears is supported in that manner. Why? To make sure it doesn't break over, because most of the weight is placed there and it is made of wood?

Hmmm.. Hard to conclude with nothing but an image, but it certainly looks like a wooden performance.

[sf108]

Originally posted by crimresearch
Mmmm..sorry, no.

The Chinese government realized quite some time ago that a profitable idea would be to run the temple as a performance for tourists.

No secrets, no masters, no original monks, no hidden indoor training...just employees putting on a show.

As far as the original picture, Claus is again just trolling his woo-woo....the mechanics of that sort of 'Iron Shirt' have been discussed here before...it is body training and physics to create an illusion.

I never said there was hidden indoor training. Yes, there are original monks. I'm referring to "original" as in they're not posers of Shaolin kungfu. I've seen a documentary on ABC about the Shaolin temple. Only a dozen or so real monks live there at the moment. Some practicing kungfu, some practicing religion only.

There are many schools of outside the temple claiming to teach Shaolin. Whether by real or posers, I don't know.

If you want more info. u can go to Raffi's site:
http://www.beijingwushuteam.com/articles/shaolintour.html

I've personally been to 2 Shaolin shows. All were impressive. One was the Wheel of Life that is showing everywhere. I know a kungfu master who told me those shows aren't real Shaolin monks. Just posers trying to make money using Shaolin marketing.

[crimresearch]

Well, reading Raffi's site that you linked to, he seems to agree with me that the people inside the temple are not 'real' Shaolin monks any more than those outside are, on many levels.

And I'm not really in a position to comment on their religiosity.

Also, it is correct that the shows put on under the name of Shaloin can rise to impressive levels of entertainment.

I am just highly skeptical that any of it is useful martial arts of the type practiced there even a couple of centuries ago.

[Timothy]

I suppose someone would have to explain to me why this is so *fantasically amazing* as to warrant any discussion at all.

Is anyone suggesting that there's anything special, paranormal, supernatural, or chi-filled mega-woo-woo going on here?

Can most people do this? No.
Can most people run the 100-meter in under 10 seconds? No.
Can most people twist themselves the way the contortionists in Cirque du Soleil do? No.

The guy's got a specialized skill. Big whoop.

- Timothy

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by sf108
I never said there was hidden indoor training. Yes, there are original monks. I'm referring to "original" as in they're not posers of Shaolin kungfu. I've seen a documentary on ABC about the Shaolin temple. Only a dozen or so real monks live there at the moment. Some practicing kungfu, some practicing religion only.

LMAO!!! The Shaolin Monk nonsense is as credible as the Japanese Ninja nonsense. Both are groups of people that became extinct many, many years ago. They've been reborn from myths and vague history and are not great marketing schemes.

You really shouldn't take what you see on TV as factual information, CTV hosts "psychic detectives" after all.

[Thomas]

Originally posted by Timothy
I suppose someone would have to explain to me why this is so *fantasically amazing* as to warrant any discussion at all.

Some people do believe that these guys actually is inspired by higher forces etc etc., and skeptics aim to eliminate baloney.

Is anyone suggesting that there's anything special, paranormal, supernatural, or chi-filled mega-woo-woo going on here?
In this thread? I don't think so, but people are curious to find a plausible explanation which goes further than "specialized skill".
I personally don't think it's a very specialized skill if the setup is what it appears to be - a guy basically resting on a piece of wood.

[Dermanus]

First post here, and at least it's something I know a fair bit about.

Martial arts is, in my opinion, one of the most overly mystified legitimate arts around.

The old-fashioned explanation for what this person (whether or not he is a monk is not really decided) is doing is that he focuses his chi so that the spears do not penetrate him.

The real explanation, as I understand it, has already been mentioned. The spears aren't that sharp, he's quite muscled, and the bed-of-nails principle applies.

treble_head
You CAN reform your bones to take a hit. You CAN adjsut your muscles to be less sensitive to pain.

This is partly true. Your body will become more adapated to punishment if it consistently gets it. I don't know if this is primarily mental or physical (physical I would think). However, I hope you're not refering to the myth that some martial artists break and re-set their bones to create stronger bones. This is partially true, in that when a bone is broken the raw calcium creates a stronger than normal bond. However, that bond only covers about 1/8th of an inch (~30 mm). On top of that, in greatly increases the risk of arthritis.

[crimresearch]

Hi Dermanus, welcome to the forum.

There are several regular posters here who enjoy poking holes in the mystical aspects of the MA.

[arthwollipot]

I saw the Shaolin Monks once when they came to Canberra. They broke things with their heads. It was cool.

[Doberman]

Originally posted by treble_head
I can flip a butterfly knife to no end with my right hand. If I try similar things with my left, I will hold my hand from pain for hours.



You realize that when you switch hands, you have to switch the sharp side to face the other way right? ;)

D

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Doberman
You realize that when you switch hands, you have to switch the sharp side to face the other way right? ;)

D

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