Homeopathy in Powerpoint

[Nex]

As a university student, I'm required to take a few introductory classes in computer science, in case I don't know how to use a keyboard or something. :D

My final presentation for my class is in Powerpoint, and I chose to do it on homeopathy from a skeptical point of view. There is a homeopath in my class, but I'm hoping this won't cause too much of a problem with her. Who knows? She's rarely there anyway, I doubt she'll be there for the presentations.

Anyway, I wanted to add to my presentation by pulling the same stunt as these guys did (http://www.homeowatch.org/articles/jaroff.html) and commit "homeopathic suicide" in front of class. Unfortunately, I didn't know what "medicines" to use, so I started asking around.
I spent almost half an hour on the phone with the local homeopathic clinic, which gave me nothing. Same with a number of forums I asked, including this one. (http://www.abchomeopathy.com/forum2.php/12928)

I mean, I don't think homeopathy is anything but a big steaming pile, but do you think the doctors and scientists in the Homeowatch article linked above might have jumped the gun a little? Even homeopathic practitioners have told me, not in so many words, that it doesn't really do anything. There's no way to overdose or kill yourself with this stuff, either in reality or in woo-world.

Interestingly, the homeopathic clinic I telephoned directly admitted to me that it's all most likely placebo effect. She even stated she only treats people for "emotional illness" and not "material illness" because that what it works best with, I guess. Except eczema, she was quite proud about some case of hers with eczema.

Odd, all that. Any thoughts?

[Ashles]

I assume there are a lot of homeopathic practitioners and users who do it as much for fun and intrigue as really believing it works.

And ensure the 'Allow fast Saves' option is turned off in PowerPoint (Tools>Options>Save) - it causes more corrupted files and problems than anything else.

[TheBoyPaj]

Originally posted by Nex
Interestingly, the homeopathic clinic I telephoned directly admitted to me that it's all most likely placebo effect. She even stated she only treats people for "emotional illness" and not "material illness" because that what it works best with, I guess. Except eczema, she was quite proud about some case of hers with eczema.

Odd, all that. Any thoughts?

Well eczema is known to worsen when the patient is emotionally stressed, so presumably a placebo can help.
Basically, once the severity of an illness can be affected by mood, all bets are off in my book.

No suggestions for poisons, though. After all, a lot of homeopathc medicines ARE based on poisons. Isn't that the point?

[Ashles]

Nex, on that forum you visited, that John Stanton was jolly rude wasn't he?
you do not understand because you have no (or very little) experience with prescribing homoeopathy...
So you then ask him to answer your question and he doesn't ever reply.

It seems like John wants to sound like an expert in something but real things are too much like hard work. I suppose it's much easier to become an expert in something that's made up.

But maybe he doesn't even know about homeopathy.

This is one message posted to him
"John, stop saying stupid things to everybody. I am watching your responses each day and you dont have anything in common with the homeopathy. you respond to everybody even the question is not for you. you dont have any other things to do? maybe is time for you to find a new hobby, this one is not for you.

people need good advice, and you are not able to give one.

so, please, stop, for the best of everybody...."


But I have just come across a much more worrying post on that site:
If this doesn't make you concerned about homeopathy then I don't know what will (http://www.abchomeopathy.com/forum2.php/8485/) - Edited to add this link doesn't work. Go to the forums and type 'John Stanton' in the search box. Then when the results appear choose the last one - 'Attention Mr John Stanton'

Please do this as you must see how dangerous homeopathy can be when idiots are involved.

Someone has a convulsing two-year old child with a fever and they decide to consult Mr John Stanton! An anonymous stranger over an internet forum? Firstly that person should not be allowed to be a parent - they are moronic beyond belief.
Secondly John merely advises him to check his other posts. No advice!
Not only does he not recommend a doctor (which, frankly almost all homeopaths would have the sense to do) he doesn't even offer any homeopathic advice. Just a lazy "ok--check other posts".
That's it.
Someone is asking for advice about a convulsing young child and this creep doesn't even care.

Thank goodness for the poster Maria who appears to have a brain, and recommends a doctor.

There is no follow up, we don't know what the outcome of this might have been.

I am appalled.

[Ashles]

Actually that whole forum is pretty terrifying.

One query:
I have recently started using homeopathics and my 7 month old daughter has a cold which I began using pulsitlla nigricans for after I used the Remedy Finder to figure out what to get for her. She has taken the tablets since yesterday (Nov 9) afternoon. She threw up yesterday afternoon right after the first dose. Then this evening she threw up a watery yellowish substance about a minute after taking the tablets. And then a couple of hours later I gave her another couple of tablets and she threw up her entire dinner almost immediately. Is it possible that she is allergic to it? Or coincidence and she just has a bug along with the cold. I thought I had read somewhere that sometimes if you have the wrong remedy, it gives the person symptoms of the remedy, which I don't know if pulsitilla includes vomiting.

Another:
Age : 3years 6 months girl
Shows wheezing at night ,
Starts initially as cold, mild running nose, or cough, kind of cold due to allergy. After a couple of days, aggravates to Wheezing at night, dont know exactly what triggers it, but looks like cold, eating candies, at night etc.

Other symptoms
Had moderate eczema earlier at about 2 years age, now considerably reduced.

Difficult to cough, almost like vomitting due to cough/wheezing.
Sleeps at night with wheezing.
Kindly let me know any experiences, remedies.
Thanking you

Another:
My daughter is 2-1/2 years old. She has been a very poor eater since I switched her from breastmilk to formula milk when she was 9 months old. She is mostly under 20th percentile. She is also very fussy about what she likes. She has started to go to a babysitter since the last 2 months as I have started working. Ever since she just won't eat and will drink only 2 ounces of milk in the whole 8 hrs. She has have lost weight too. She won't eat fruits, vegetables cookies. She won't even drink any kind of juice. I have started giving her liv52(ayurvedic medicine) 1 tablet twice daily.

Please advise as to how her appetite can be increased.

Thanks

[Nex]

Originally posted by Ashles
I assume there are a lot of homeopathic practitioners and users who do it as much for fun and intrigue as really believing it works.
Considering that was my main reason for getting into herbalism, I'm inclined to agree. I had a serious illness recently, and didn't dare use any alt.med stuff, even though I was involved in it at the time.

Originally posted by Ashles
And ensure the 'Allow fast Saves' option is turned off in PowerPoint (Tools>Options>Save) - it causes more corrupted files and problems than anything else.
Thanks for the tip! :D

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
After all, a lot of homeopathc medicines ARE based on poisons. Isn't that the point?
Cripes. After my conversations with them, I have no idea what the point is...

Originally posted by Ashles
Nex, on that forum you visited, that John Stanton was jolly rude wasn't he?
...
So you then ask him to answer your question and he doesn't ever reply.
Yeah. I guess it's OK because he has a monopoly on The Ultimate Truthâ„¢. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Ashles
Go to the forums and type 'John Stanton' in the search box. Then when the results appear choose the last one - 'Attention Mr John Stanton'

Please do this as you must see how dangerous homeopathy can be when idiots are involved.

Someone has a convulsing two-year old child with a fever and they decide to consult Mr John Stanton! An anonymous stranger over an internet forum? Firstly that person should not be allowed to be a parent - they are moronic beyond belief.
Secondly John merely advises him to check his other posts. No advice!.

Mere words cannot come close to describing my disgust at such a man. :mad:

Honestly, who in their right mind takes seriously any medical advice on a web forum? Ashles, thanks for your searches through there, I hadn't bothered much beyond what pertained to my question. It shows well how dangerous it could be.

Pardon me... I'm going to slam my forehead on the desk now... :mad:

[Ashles]

But this one is quite unbelievable as are most of the responses:

--------------------------------
blue baby congenital heart desease From melvinj13 [Log on to view profile] on 2004-09-17
8 replies 178 views
my baby who is 3mos old was diagnosed to have tetralogy of fallot wherein the valves going to lungs is narrow causing my baby to be cyanotic. aside from this, he has single atria and single ventricle. we've consulted 2 doctors, one hears a murmur sound and the other doesn't.

my baby looks healthy
( 12lbs. ) except for the constant bluish color on his fingernails and often times on his lips when crying.

1 doctor told me that he'll undergo 3 surgery. however, i've heard cases wherein their children doesn't take any operations and medicines but had managed managed to live for 13 to 30 yrs.

is it true that the valve could possible grow and 2 atria and ventricles developed as the child grows? is surgery really needed to be done giving that i've been hearing small chances of survival on this. can my baby just take some medications and not surgery?

please help me. am very confused and wouldn't like my baby to undergo heart operations.

thanks and god bless...

:) melanie
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Re: blue baby congenital heart desease From Astra2012 [Log on to view profile] on 2004-09-18
hello Melanie,
Actually all that drs can do are surgeries and drugs. What do they plan to do in the surgery? They will not cure your baby, will they?
And the experience of the surgery will be horrible.
Please get in touch with people who went through similar problems and CHOSE NATURAL WAYS.
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Re: blue baby congenital heart desease From melvinj13 [Log on to view profile] on 2004-09-18
that's a relief. any natural methods you happen to know? for those who had been through the same problem, kindly continue to give me inspirations and hope. i have faith that my baby will grow and live a normal life....

thanks...
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Re: blue baby congenital heart desease From bunbun [Log on to view profile] on 2004-09-18
Please do not be blind to cases where babies have had operations and gone on to develop normally, I'm sure you would rather your little one lead a full and active life, not one cut short in childhood. I don't know the full case but I am sure the doctor's know what they are doing. Homeopathy can be used to aid your little son in a speedy recovery from any operations.

My brother had a congenital spinal defect when he was born, he was expected never to walk. He underwent 3 operations between the ages of 1 and 6, walked steadily by the time he was 4 and is now 25 years old and leading a very happy career as an able bodied Chef!
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Re: blue baby congenital heart desease From pellucida [Log on to view profile] on 2004-09-20
Melanie, I strongly suggest you listen to bunbun's advice. Astra2012, who the hell do you think you are to offer such ludicrous advice as that? Natural remedies for Fallot's tetralogy? You are either sadly deluded or seriously irresponsible.

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Re: blue baby congenital heart desease From Astra2012 [Log on to view profile] on 2004-09-20
pellucida-I stated my opinion-and who the hell do YOU think you are to call me irresponsible and deluded for that???
I could call you few names too - but would it make sense?
We could exchange little "compliments" like that but it really is just a waste of time and it wouldn't help Melanie one bit. And sorry, her baby is a main character of this thread-not you (but of course you are welcome to start one devoted exclusively to you).

Melanie-I believe you have to go to yet another dr, and yet another-until you find a dr who is competent, compassionate AND you like him. Doctors ARE NOT always right! College class clowns and idiots who were never prepared but somehow made it through med school are also called "doctors". I met quite a few of them.


Keep searching for people who went through the same problem. read about HYPERBARIC OXYGEN treatment-I believe it might be beneficial.
Your baby probably had MRI right? Which dr interpreted the pictures (surgeon?cardiologist? pediatrician?)
Do both drs agree with that diagnosis?

I'd also advise you to go to the experienced homeopath.
(this needs too close management to be the online case).
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Re: blue baby congenital heart desease From melvinj13 [Log on to view profile] on 2004-09-21
i have talked to a lot of people who has the same case as mine. some took the risk of heart surgeries
and others dont... some managed to survived on either case while some died during operations and without
taking any... the oldest survival that i've get along with was on his 30++ years, has a successful career
and a family of his own...he hasn't gone thru medications and any surgeries although he was advised by doctor to have one when he's still a baby...

the one thing that confuses me more is that how come my doctor says that there are no alternative medications
except surgeries while the others i've known are given medications as substitutes.

also, i doubt if there's really total recovery after operations since the ones i've known are taking antibiotics
for life. from the way i've seen it, there are more complications after surgeries. and yes, i'll be consulting
with as many doctors as possible...

thanks to you all.. god bless..

:) melanie
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Re: blue baby congenital heart desease From Astra2012 [Log on to view profile] on 2004-09-22
hello Melanie
Please don't let anybody pressure you into doing anything you don't feel like doing. NOBODY wants for your baby better than you do.

I personally believe in natural therapies-plus common sense.
Wish you and your baby the best.
Astra
PS. My heart is very good but when it is cold my fingernails turn blue.
(just to cheer you up maybe).
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Re: blue baby congenital heart desease From melvinj13 [Log on to view profile] on 2004-10-22
hello,

my baby has undergone BTS operation last week and will have another one after 2 yrs. thank god he recovered fast..

aside from single atrium; single ventricle; malposed pulmonary arteri; and pulmonary stenosis; they also found out that he has a single coronary arteri.

the surgeon said that he'll undergo one last fontan surgery.. am i on the right path given the conditions i posted?

i just wanted to be sure because i heard others taking BTS then glen shunt before fontan whereas my baby has only 2 (BTS then fontan).

thanks..

:) melanie
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I mean how irresponsible can you be?

This is bordering on criminal behaviour.

[Jorghnassen]

Making a PowerPoint presentation on homeopathy is considered computer science now?

Now how does one commit homeopathic suicide, do you dilute a known poison in water to a C30 (whatever the notation is, like 1 part of poison for 100^30 parts of water) or some other homeopathic dosage, or do you use homeopathic principles to pick the poison in the first place (i.e. similar symptoms-causing "medication" for similar illness, so if you want to kill yourself (put an end to your "living" symptom), you'd need to dilute some life-creating substance)?

[scratchy]

If you are going to do the homeopathic suicide stunt, make absolutely sure that its a true ho. remedy youre using. There are fake ones out there, wich are spiked with working chemicals in order to have some effect.

[Nex]

Originally posted by Jorghnassen
Making a PowerPoint presentation on homeopathy is considered computer science now?
Well, it's the powerpoint presentation that matters to my professor. I just chose homeopathy for the fun of it.

Originally posted by Jorghnassen
Now how does one commit homeopathic suicide, do you dilute a known poison in water to a C30 (whatever the notation is, like 1 part of poison for 100^30 parts of water) or some other homeopathic dosage, or do you use homeopathic principles to pick the poison in the first place (i.e. similar symptoms-causing "medication" for similar illness, so if you want to kill yourself (put an end to your "living" symptom), you'd need to dilute some life-creating substance)?
Hehehe, I've got no clue. Good question though.

I'm just going to buy a bottle or two of whatever at the homeopathy place. I'm not interested in purchasing arsenic and mixing it all myself. What would I do with the remaining arsenic? My husband's got a good life insurance provider... but not that good. :D

Originally posted by scratchy
If you are going to do the homeopathic suicide stunt, make absolutely sure that its a true ho. remedy youre using. There are fake ones out there, wich are spiked with working chemicals in order to have some effect.
I plan on buying it from the homeopathy clinic here in town. I also will be doing a test run before the presentation itself, just to make sure it isn't spiked with anything and that everything goes according to plan.

Of course, if I get no answer as to what homeopathic medicine could kill you, then I'll have to scrap the stunt. There's no point in saying it could kill me if according to the theory, it couldn't. That's just dishonest, really.

Which brings me back to those doctors and scientists in the Homeowatch article: Did they know that according to homeopathic practice, no homeopathic medicine could kill you? If they did, they were dishonest. If not... well, they should have done their homework.

[Dr Adequate]

Well as I recall the particular stunt was to take a massive overdose of homeopathic sleeping pills (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22homeopathic+sleeping+pills%22&btnG=Google+Search). Presumably you can get the darn things from any badly-stocked pharmacist.

Or you could make your own. Coffee's a herb, and keeps you awake: logically, I mean illogically, I mean according to the tenets of homeopathy. So if you dilute it heavily...

If you look among the google hits, you'll see that homeopathy has saved at least one life:
She stated she had taken an overdose of homeopathic sleeping pills a month or so before and admitted to feeling suicidal.
Someone tell Rolfe!

[Rolfe]

In this context, you may find this thread interesting (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44041).

You might achieve a publicity stunt with the swallowing-dozens-of-pills trick, but you'll only convince the homoeopaths that you haven't a clue what homoeopathy is really about.

Rolfe.

PS. If you need some effective trolling done on a homoeopathy board, PM Badly Shaved Monkey. He's the all-time expert.

[Zep]

The Australian Skeptics did the Great Homeopathic Suicide Attempt last Saturday. A bunch of them, including Phil Plait the Bad Astronomer, took about 20 homeopathic sleeping pills each, all in one handful. A few kept on munching through the remainder while they were doing their presentations. The only effect of any note was a nice sugar-buzz.

Ask poster Richard here about the substance used - he organised it. Incidentally, at $16 per box of pills, these aren't a cheap stunt!

I'd suggest a better presentation would be to make an animated Powerpoint presentation of the homeopathic serial dilution method, to explain the overall silliness of the concept.

[Nex]

Originally posted by Rolfe
In this context, you may find this thread interesting (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44041).

You might achieve a publicity stunt with the swallowing-dozens-of-pills trick, but you'll only convince the homoeopaths that you haven't a clue what homoeopathy is really about.
Thanks for the link. Yes, there is a homeopath in the class, as I said, and I am trying to learn more about it in order to be well-informed. Apparently the stunt itself would prove I wasn't. That's not my goal.

Originally posted by Rolfe
PS. If you need some effective trolling done on a homoeopathy board, PM Badly Shaved Monkey. He's the all-time expert.
I'm not really looking for trolls, I was asking honest questions, but that board sure needs some trolling. Oy gevalt!

Originally posted by Zep
I'd suggest a better presentation would be to make an animated Powerpoint presentation of the homeopathic serial dilution method, to explain the overall silliness of the concept.
Excellent idea. I think I'll go that route, thanks!

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
Well as I recall the particular stunt was to take a massive overdose of homeopathic sleeping pills (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22homeopathic+sleeping+pills%22&btnG=Google+Search). Presumably you can get the darn things from any badly-stocked pharmacist.

Or you could make your own. Coffee's a herb, and keeps you awake: logically, I mean illogically, I mean according to the tenets of homeopathy. So if you dilute it heavily...

If you look among the google hits, you'll see that homeopathy has saved at least one life:

Someone tell Rolfe!

Was that the one where the pills contained a small amount of alcohol?

[Ashles]

As far as I can tell from my examination of the homeopathy forum the fastest and most effective way to commit suicide is to develop a serious and life-threatening condition, then ask homeopaths to help you get better.

[Dr Adequate]

This would get a better class of reply if it was moved to SMM&T.

[Quasi]

You might want to start out the presentation with a brief history of Hpathy, a good place to start is www.quackwatch.org. It would also serve as a nice segway in your presentation to the demonstration. I also think some financial data on the cost/benefit of homeo would also be very damaging. I believe that all of the emergency room (triage I believe you call it in the UK) visits caused by CAM, especially homeopathy is at a staggering cost. If you do put together some of this data, please share it here.

[Ashles]

By the way when you buy these ready mixed bottles in the homeopathisc shops, have you ever wondered how they are mixed and who mixes them?

Well for a period of time it was, er, me.

I used to work in a holistic healing centre primarily as admin but we all did all sorts of different jobs a lot of the time.

At one point I was given a load of small empty bottles and loads of homeopathic mixtures and my instructions, in their entirety, were as follows:
"Take a couple of drops of the mixture (no more than 5), drop them into the empty bottles, fill up with tap water, shake the bottle"
There, that was my entire instructions. Scientific and accurate huh?

This was a leading holistic healing centre that has a website, celebrity visitors, visits from TV crews, mail order service, etc.
They are still in business so, obviously, I won't name them, but this gives you some level of professionalism behind the scenes.

Yet another example of practitioners of homeopathy not taking their services particularly seriously (although they were happy to charge serious money for the services).

The stories I could tell about my time there...

On the plus side it was instrumental in making me as scptical as I am about these types of things.

And also it did give me the following oportunity:
Man walks up to counter: "Do you have any books on levitation?"
Me: "Yeah, they're on the top shelf"

Even my mostly humourless co-workers had a chuckle at that one.

[thatguywhojuggles]

Would you consider sharing your PP presentation with us after you finish it? I'd love to see it.

[Nex]

Originally posted by Quasi
You might want to start out the presentation with a brief history of Hpathy, a good place to start is www.quackwatch.org. It would also serve as a nice segway in your presentation to the demonstration. I also think some financial data on the cost/benefit of homeo would also be very damaging. I believe that all of the emergency room (triage I believe you call it in the UK) visits caused by CAM, especially homeopathy is at a staggering cost. If you do put together some of this data, please share it here.
Thanks for the link! I don't know if I'll bother to get that in-depth in this presentation, mainly due to time restrictions. I was going to cover a number of angles, but it looks like I'm only going to get about 15-20 minutes at most, which isn't enough time to cover a majority of issues with homeopathy.

I may do that on my own, though. Winter break is coming up, and I'll be needing something to keep my mind occupied. Aside from my knitting, of course. ;)

Originally posted by Ashles
By the way when you buy these ready mixed bottles in the homeopathisc shops, have you ever wondered how they are mixed and who mixes them?

Well for a period of time it was, er, me.[...]
Ashles, that's just amazing. Have you posted other stories from that place? If not, I'd love to hear them. If you don't want to post them, you can PM or email me.
Who knows, maybe I could use some of it in my presentation...

Originally posted by thatguywhojuggles
Would you consider sharing your PP presentation with us after you finish it? I'd love to see it.
Sure. I don't know how much good (read: entertaining) it will be without the accompanying speech though. I'm working humor into the spoken part, and keeping the powerpoint more "professional." But, I can email it to you or something if you want. I'll let you know when it's done.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Nex
As a university student, I'm required to take a few introductory classes in computer science, in case I don't know how to use a keyboard or something. :D

My final presentation for my class is in Powerpoint, and I chose to do it on homeopathy from a skeptical point of view. There is a homeopath in my class, but I'm hoping this won't cause too much of a problem with her. Who knows? She's rarely there anyway, I doubt she'll be there for the presentations.

Anyway, I wanted to add to my presentation by pulling the same stunt as these guys did (http://www.homeowatch.org/articles/jaroff.html) and commit "homeopathic suicide" in front of class. Unfortunately, I didn't know what "medicines" to use, so I started asking around.
I spent almost half an hour on the phone with the local homeopathic clinic, which gave me nothing. Same with a number of forums I asked, including this one. (http://www.abchomeopathy.com/forum2.php/12928)

I mean, I don't think homeopathy is anything but a big steaming pile, but do you think the doctors and scientists in the Homeowatch article linked above might have jumped the gun a little? Even homeopathic practitioners have told me, not in so many words, that it doesn't really do anything. There's no way to overdose or kill yourself with this stuff, either in reality or in woo-world.

Interestingly, the homeopathic clinic I telephoned directly admitted to me that it's all most likely placebo effect. She even stated she only treats people for "emotional illness" and not "material illness" because that what it works best with, I guess. Except eczema, she was quite proud about some case of hers with eczema.

Odd, all that. Any thoughts?

Find those alcohol sleep pills and swallow three boxes worth! That ought to have some small effect on your confidence.

[TheBoyPaj]

Originally posted by Nex
Thanks for the link! I don't know if I'll bother to get that in-depth in this presentation, mainly due to time restrictions. I was going to cover a number of angles, but it looks like I'm only going to get about 15-20 minutes at most, which isn't enough time to cover a majority of issues with homeopathy.

Just make sure you use lots of evocative imagery to get the maths across rather than big numbers. You know, the "one drop in all the world's oceans" line. That's a killer.

(That's from here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathytrans.shtml) , for anyone who didn't know.)

[Nex]

Update:

Thanks for everyone's help. My presentation ran just a bit over 20 minutes, and we had an intense Q&A session afterwards that ran almost as long. I thought one girl was going to hit me... :eek: I managed to field every question thrown at me calmly and thoroughly.

I got 100% on it!

Those who were interested in seeing it, however, I apologise but I can't. I didn't know at the time, but the professor wanted to keep the disk it was saved on for grading purposes. I didn't know this until afterwards, and hadn't saved it to my hard drive here at home. I'm sorry.

Just for a giggle, it did have a lot of duck images in it, and a soundbite of a flock quacking. :D

Thanks again for your help everyone, the information in the links you gave me really made a difference!

[B.S]

Congratulations, sounds like a job well done.

[thatguywhojuggles]

Originally posted by Nex
Update:

Thanks for everyone's help. My presentation ran just a bit over 20 minutes, and we had an intense Q&A session afterwards that ran almost as long. I thought one girl was going to hit me... :eek: I managed to field every question thrown at me calmly and thoroughly.

I got 100% on it!

Those who were interested in seeing it, however, I apologise but I can't. I didn't know at the time, but the professor wanted to keep the disk it was saved on for grading purposes. I didn't know this until afterwards, and hadn't saved it to my hard drive here at home. I'm sorry.

Just for a giggle, it did have a lot of duck images in it, and a soundbite of a flock quacking. :D

Thanks again for your help everyone, the information in the links you gave me really made a difference!

Details please!! Especially about the girl who wanted to deck you!

Thanks

[rustypouch]

Originally posted by thatguywhojuggles
Details please!! Especially about the girl who wanted to deck you!

Thanks

Is she hot?

[Nex]

Originally posted by thatguywhojuggles
Details please!! Especially about the girl who wanted to deck you!

Thanks
No problem.

(no names given due to privacy reasons-- I didn't make up any because I'm not feeling especially creative right now) ;)

Considering I had a time restraint of 20 minutes, I had a hard time fitting all the major arguments for and against homeopathy into the actual presentation. I covered the basic history and premises of it, and then countered it with established scientific facts. I think, for the most part, we all know the basics here, so I won't go over that.
I chose to spend a lot of time on the "quantum" argument because I knew it would be brought up by my classmates if I didn't. We had a physics major in the class who laughed out loud when I explained the homeopaths' mistaken views on quantum theory.

My final slide had the soundbyte of ducks quacking and a small animated .gif of a waddling duck. I made sure to emphasize that one must be an informed patient who is active in their treatment, and to do their own research whenever possible to make up their own minds, i.e. don't just take my word for it, go look it up for yourself. And, of course, the required plug about the Randi Million. :D

I didn't even need to prompt the Q&A, immediately one girl asked about herbology and other "ancient knowledge." I replied that homeopathy is neither ancient nor herbal, but a 200 year old idea based on hypothesis and not established scientific knowledge. I also pointed out that although herbalism is an acceptable alternative health practice, it can be very dangerous because most books on the subject contradict one another, and the fact that it's very hard to gauge exactly how much active chemical compound is in a plant without a full laboratory setup, because each plant can have wildly varying levels.

Another girl asked how you knew the difference between homeopathic and herbal remedies if you were buying them at the grocery store. Well, some are labeled, some are not. I told her to bring a magnifying glass to read the ultra-fine print. ;)

Yet another girl (why are they all female?) asked about studies by Dr. Benveniste. I explained about double-blind studies and that his weren't, and explained how researchers expectations can affect the outcomes of things like this. She brought up some un-named studies on babies, and I said I couldn't possibly address it without a reference point, could she tell me if they were double-blind at least? No, she couldn't-- these studies are without a name, date, or even a guarantee of acceptable control. I explained why I couldn't accept that as evidence.

The first girl brought up anecdotes of people who were "cured" with homeopathy. I explained anecdotal evidence, and further expanded on the placebo effect which I touched upon in the presentation itself. She then tried to demonise medical science, talking about medical error and "doctors who don't care." I restated my stance on being an informed patient, and reminded her of one of my slides (titled "Even Homeopathy Has a Boogeyman"), which had already covered this topic.

The third girl got upset and asked why I would want to challenge someone's belief. I told her that it's important that the public gets both sides of the argument in order to come to a reasoned conclusion. She asked me why, if it's just water, would it hurt anyone. I spoke a little about monetary loss and also the dangers of letting an illness continue without professional treatment. I gave a hypothetical situation of a person with Addison's disease, which has confusing symptoms, and how they would be treated with homeopathic remedies. Without proper medical care, the hypothetical patient dies.

This created an uproar. A number of people got upset, and asked me how anyone would actually put their lives on the line for this stuff. I replied: "That's what I would like to know."

The first girl stood up and looked like she was going to head for the podium. The professor, luckily, was right behind her, and told her to sit down. She looked livid, honestly. Her face was red. I do not doubt that at the very least, she would have approached me in order to scream in my face. She looked like she was ready to hit me. I'm not an overly excitable person, but she did have me a little scared. I'm happy our prof was right there.

I know I've forgotten a few things, it got pretty heated in there and you know how adrenaline can affect memory. Apologies that I can't recall the full story.

[H3LL]

Thank you for the story.

I will be facing the world with a smile on my face today :D

Could you guage how many of your audience were receiving new information?

[B.S]

Nex, I wish to add to my earlier comment and say that you are my new hero!

[Nex]

Originally posted by H3LL
Thank you for the story.

I will be facing the world with a smile on my face today :D

Could you guage how many of your audience were receiving new information?
You're welcome. :D

I knew almost everyone had heard of homeopathy at one point or another, but once I had gotten through the major premises of it, there was some giggling going on... I think homeopathy is something most people have heard of, but liken it to herbalism. I don't think most people know what it's really all about, and I'd say it was completely new information to maybe 70% of the class.

Originally posted by B.S
Nex, I wish to add to my earlier comment and say that you are my new hero!
http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s26/smilies-28097.png

[Nex]

Originally posted by rustypouch
Is she hot?
I thought she was pretty cute... http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/ed/smiletongue.gif

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Nex
I know I've forgotten a few things, it got pretty heated in there and you know how adrenaline can affect memory. Apologies that I can't recall the full story. Oh, to have been the proverbial fly on the wall! That must have been one delicious episode.

Rolfe.

[Ashles]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

And the amount of information in the world increased by a tiny, but nonetheless important amount.

Well done Nex.

And, of course, well done PowerPoint - is there nothng you can't do, you lovely presentations package?

[Wolrab]

I too just did a PP presentation for my class as part of a homework assignment, the class is listed as computer science but is really just for certification for future jobs.

On the first day of class, a young girl (I'm 41 so they are all young) admited she had absolutely zero experience on computers, I don't know how that's possible nowadays. She then told the class she wanted to be a Holistic Veterinarian. Not wanting to make waves so early in the semester, I never followed up on exactly what that was.

[Nex]

Originally posted by Wolrab
I too just did a PP presentation for my class as part of a homework assignment, the class is listed as computer science but is really just for certification for future jobs.

On the first day of class, a young girl (I'm 41 so they are all young) admited she had absolutely zero experience on computers, I don't know how that's possible nowadays. She then told the class she wanted to be a Holistic Veterinarian. Not wanting to make waves so early in the semester, I never followed up on exactly what that was.
You're not in North Carolina are you? The third girl in my story above said the same things on the first day of class.

*Edited to add: the reason I ask is we had a forty-ish gentleman in our class for the first week, then he transferred to another class.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Wolrab
I too just did a PP presentation for my class as part of a homework assignment, the class is listed as computer science but is really just for certification for future jobs.

On the first day of class, a young girl (I'm 41 so they are all young) admited she had absolutely zero experience on computers, I don't know how that's possible nowadays. She then told the class she wanted to be a Holistic Veterinarian. Not wanting to make waves so early in the semester, I never followed up on exactly what that was. A veterinarian of holes...you don't wanna go there.

And unless she applies to some mail-order degree-mill university, she's never going to make it past sweeping up elephant's poop at the zoo.

[geni]

Originally posted by Zep
A veterinarian of holes...you don't wanna go there.

And unless she applies to some mail-order degree-mill university, she's never going to make it past sweeping up elephant's poop at the zoo.

It's a big emering market. Now that they alturnative crowd are starting to figure out ways around the animal abuse laws it's the next big thing. After all the are only so many marks to go round. However by coveing their pets as well as them you get a bigger market.

[Wolrab]

You're not in North Carolina are you? The third girl in my story above said the same things on the first day of class.
No, I'm in upstate NY (FLCC), but us fortyish dudes get around!:D

[Nex]

Originally posted by Wolrab
No, I'm in upstate NY (FLCC), but us fortyish dudes get around!:D
Well paint me red and call me a barn... I'm from Farmington! I went to FLCC for two non-consecutive semesters.

Damn, now I'm all homesick... :(

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by geni
It's a big emering market. Now that they alturnative crowd are starting to figure out ways around the animal abuse laws it's the next big thing. After all the are only so many marks to go round. However by coveing their pets as well as them you get a bigger market. Yes, but in the UK and the US, and quite a lot of other countries too, you're not allowed to lay a finger on an animal medically unless you are a bona fide vet. Of course there are real vets who have gone woo, I think we know most of their names, but the fact is that before you can be a "holistic veterinarian" you actually have to get to college and study and pass out as a real veterinarian.

That might put a bit of a crimp in her plans.

Rolfe.

[Nex]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Yes, but in the UK and the US, and quite a lot of other countries too, you're not allowed to lay a finger on an animal medically unless you are a bona fide vet. Of course there are real vets who have gone woo, I think we know most of their names, but the fact is that before you can be a "holistic veterinarian" you actually have to get to college and study and pass out as a real veterinarian.

That might put a bit of a crimp in her plans.

Rolfe.
I hope so, but at the same time we all know how they get around the human medical laws.

I don't know, I'm not a vet, but knowing how some of the alt.med. people think, I don't think it's a stretch. I mean, there are already homeopathic "vets" (http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/veterinary.html). :nope:

How do the veterinary laws work? Could one title oneself a "holistic animal therapist?" Or a "homeopathic animal therapist?"

[Wolrab]

Well paint me red and call me a barn... I'm from Farmington! I went to FLCC for two non-consecutive semesters.

No kiddin! Old hometown week at the JREF! I live in Shortsville .

I had my final in PP today (94% on test 100% for the class)
The computer illiterate holistic vet wannabe didn't look too happy as I left class.

[Nex]

Originally posted by Wolrab
No kiddin! Old hometown week at the JREF! I live in Shortsville .

I had my final in PP today (94% on test 100% for the class)
The computer illiterate holistic vet wannabe didn't look too happy as I left class.
Congrats on your good grade!

May I ask, what did you do for your presentation that upset the aspiring woo vet? :D

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Nex
I hope so, but at the same time we all know how they get around the human medical laws.

I don't know, I'm not a vet, but knowing how some of the alt.med. people think, I don't think it's a stretch. I mean, there are already homeopathic "vets" (http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/veterinary.html). :nope:

How do the veterinary laws work? Could one title oneself a "holistic animal therapist?" Or a "homeopathic animal therapist?" It's a pity the table on that page is so incompetently presented that it reveals nothing.

I can only speak for sure of the situation in the UK, but here, specific things are defined as "acts of veterinary surgery" and it's illegal to carry them out if you're not a vet. Diagnosis of disease is one of them, which makes it very difficult for the woos to operate because as soon as they make any sort of comment regarding what they think is wrong, they're in breach of the law. Actually treating illness is also covered. Anyone is allowed to treat their own animals and those belonging to their employer (allowing a stockman to treat minor illnesses in the farm stock), but that's it. It doesn't even matter if you don't charge.

It's inconceivable that anyone giving well-meaning advice to a friend or neighbour combined with a gift of an OTC preparation, or trying to help an animal in an emergency, would be prosecuted. But anyone setting themselves up in a business aiming to treat animals is likely to fall foul of the law. It's possible to squeak round it, but it's a very hole-in-the-corner affair. Apart from anything else, the veterinary-qualified woos will be first in line to report you.

Rolfe.

[Ed]

Rolfe,

Do you know where I might find the whole sordid Benveniste affair laid out? Didn't Nature end up issuing an apology for his paper? If you know off the top of your head could you simply outline it?

Tnx.

[Wolrab]

May I ask, what did you do for your presentation that upset the aspiring woo vet?
My presentation was Friday and was about being a mobile dj.
She was looking pretty glum as I was leaving after taking my final on Monday. She was still at her computer and seemed confused and angry. She wasn't doing too well in the course, easy as it is.