Stephen Turoff - psychic surgeon

[DeVega]

Hey guys - just wanted your opinions/feedback on this dilemma.

I am a Breast Cancer survivor and I am part of an online community of dammed fine, amazing women. We've seen each other through tough times - one of our members even travelled over from the states this year to visit.

Anyhoo, as you've probably guessed, one of our newer members has recently become entangled with this Stephen Turoff guy. I will see if I can find and copy her post (names omitted) to recount her experience. I found it to be alarming - it seemed to me that she and her friends were hypnotised - even possibly drugged. I didn't realise that they 'use' surgical implements - a scalpel and clamps! I'm certain their is a lot of slieght of hand involved but I cannot imagine that anyone would let some guy near them in an unsterile environment, unanethsetised, brandishing a scalpel!

It seems to me to be abusive. I know they were consenting - but people in her position are the most desperate and vulnerable. I am NOT judging them - I HAVE walked in their shoes. They were left with bruising and scars so he must scratch and pull at them... In the caes of cancer, you are not even supposed to have deep massage as the lymphatic system could spread the cancer under such stimulation. The idiot could actually be causing damage. Ohhh, it makes my blood boil! Worst of all, she said it was an amazing experience & she will go back! :(

I guess I'm left wondering: A/ Do you think it's likely that in the weeks to come, these women could suffer post-traumatic stress?

B/ Can this truely be LEGAL? Do you think Trading Standards could shut this scum down?

Yours worriedly
DeVega

[Ashles]

A) If they have felt the experience was 'Amazing' then they are unlikely to have post-traumatic stress syndrome. Even if they change their minds about the experience and feel cheated and defrauded it's a fair way to go from there to the kind of horrific situations that cause PTSS.

B) If there is a risk that he could be causing serious harm then I would have thought he could be prosecutable. He appears (whether he claims it or not) to be attempting to practice medecine without a license. Also, I would have thought any damage done as a direct result of his treatment could be seen as Assault, Grevious Bodily Harm etc.

We'd need more information but any illicit drugging is certainly illegal.
Hypnosis is not such a worry because (unlike popular perception of it) it is mainly about relaxing the patient, not making them do things they don't want to against their will, which is pretty much impossible.

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by DeVega
Hey guys - just wanted your opinions/feedback on this dilemma.

I am a Breast Cancer survivor and I am part of an online community of dammed fine, amazing women. We've seen each other through tough times - one of our members even travelled over from the states this year to visit.

Anyhoo, as you've probably guessed, one of our newer members has recently become entangled with this Stephen Turoff guy. I will see if I can find and copy her post (names omitted) to recount her experience. I found it to be alarming - it seemed to me that she and her friends were hypnotised - even possibly drugged. I didn't realise that they 'use' surgical implements - a scalpel and clamps! I'm certain their is a lot of slieght of hand involved but I cannot imagine that anyone would let some guy near them in an unsterile environment, unanethsetised, brandishing a scalpel!

It seems to me to be abusive. I know they were consenting - but people in her position are the most desperate and vulnerable. I am NOT judging them - I HAVE walked in their shoes. They were left with bruising and scars so he must scratch and pull at them... In the caes of cancer, you are not even supposed to have deep massage as the lymphatic system could spread the cancer under such stimulation. The idiot could actually be causing damage. Ohhh, it makes my blood boil! Worst of all, she said it was an amazing experience & she will go back! :(

I guess I'm left wondering: A/ Do you think it's likely that in the weeks to come, these women could suffer post-traumatic stress?

B/ Can this truely be LEGAL? Do you think Trading Standards could shut this scum down?

Yours worriedly
DeVega

Sounds awful:(

Do you have a link that we can see what claims are being made? I'd imagine any medically non-qualified person would be guilty of assault and battery in criminal law if they use physically invasive treatments.

How low can these charlatans stoop?:(

[Pragmatist]

Sounds like the worst sort of scum to me.

From: http://www.funny.co.uk/comedy/prod_0-0722538901-Stephen-Turoff-Psychic-Surgeon-The-Story-of-an-Extraordinary-Healer.html

" I visited Turoff at his practice in Danbury on various occasions with my husband. Despite all our visits my husband died of his disease. I now know of four people who suffered from various cancers, who all attended Turoff and THEY ALL DIED quite soon afterwards! I did ask the Turoffs if we could meet with someone who had been successfully treated, but they assured me they did not keep the relevant records to permit this.

At the time we visited, Mr Turoff was channelling the spirit of a dead mid 19th century individual named Dr. Joseph Kahn. I have never found any records to substantiate the existence of this individual. More recently, Mr Turoff is a disciple of Sai Baba, an Indian guru. The evolution of Turoff's spirituality is quite fascinating to observe.

When I attended with my husband, I saw Turoff pinch a fold of abdominal skin and appear to make an incision. Then he appeared to put his fingers inside the abdomen - however, I could not swear that he did anything other than fold the skin and curl his fingers under, out of sight. There was no sign of an incision on my husband. The sad and awful part was that my husband believed himself to be cured. He refused to take his painkillers and suffered agonisingly until he began to take them again. As we had a number of visits, this cycle of belief of cure and refusal of painkillers continued for some time. The psychological and emotional damage that this inflicted on my husband as he struggled to come to terms with his disease progression was devastating. "

and:

"BTW, the charges made by Mr Turoff were £16 per person when we attended some years ago. He now finds it necessary to chage about £25 per patient. Mr Turoff's admits to seeing about 50 people a day at least 4 days a week"

[Pragmatist]

Some more links about Turoff. Worth reading for the MO. "Psychic ash" manifestations, and reinforcement by apparently throwing something into a bin with a sound. Sounds like standard stage magic misdirection to me. And it appears that Mr Turoff charges a lot more than 25 U.K. pounds when it suits him...

http://skepdic.com/comments/psurgcom.html

http://www.xs4all.nl/~douven/inner.journey/turoff_uk.htm

http://beyondbelief.fcpages.com/StephenTuroff.htm

And here is an interesting link connecting Turoff to Harry Oldfield - who just happens to be a close associate of our old friend, alleged "scientist", Roger Coghill

http://www.electrocrystal.com/background.html

[Operaider]

I think it would be interesting to try to get this guy prosecuted for practicing medicine without a liscense. He would either have to defend what he does and potentially go to jail, or admit what he's doing is fraud and potentially go to jail.

Either scenario would work for me

[DeVega]

I am so incensed by this I am going to print everything out and submit it to trading standards - surely there must be some law against this?

BTW I did copy my friend's account which was on the BC board but I am hesitant to post it here. It feels as if I would be betraying her trust (something she is already suffering from other quarters) so I am going to check with her that she won't mind othes seeing her account. Hope this makes sense.

I'll keep you all posted. Any other info on Mr Turoff would be welcome.

DeVega

[The Mighty Thor]

Originally posted by DeVega
I am so incensed by this I am going to print everything out and submit it to trading standards - surely there must be some law against this?

BTW I did copy my friend's account which was on the BC board but I am hesitant to post it here. It feels as if I would be betraying her trust (something she is already suffering from other quarters) so I am going to check with her that she won't mind othes seeing her account. Hope this makes sense.

I'll keep you all posted. Any other info on Mr Turoff would be welcome.

DeVega

DeVega, I hope you can take this further since you have at least second hand knowledge. Trouble is, it's a double-edged sword. You don't want to get stressed out in your situation.

I'm a middle-aged bloke, and lost both my mother and sister to cancer, and the very thought of this scumbag taking advantage like this actually made me cry. There is no self-deception here because HE MUST KNOW he is a fraud.

Have you ever seen the video where Randi shows how the psychic surgeons do their trickery? It can LOOK very convincing, but it's all a sham.

What if this nutcase is "operating" on kids who die when they could be saved by real medicine? The whole thing is totally sick.

There must be something we can do about this, folks. Coghill is a conman, sure, but this Turoff could be classed as a murderer in some ways. I knew this stuff went on in the Philippines, but I can hardly believe it is happening in the UK.

[Ashles]

This reminds me of when I was working at a holistic healing centre.

The owner wanted me to find out the numbers for AIDS charities and hospitals in the area. They felt that the AIDS sufferers could benefit from some of the treatments we were offering. Even at the time I didn't believe they could, but I didn't think it would hurt and I thought at least it was nice they were trying to help them for free.
The owner concluded with "Tell them they can have a ten percent discount".
What! They were still charging them?
Then to some other people in the room they said "Come on people, profits aren't very good at the moment, who's got any other ideas?"
Yes, that's right. The fact that they were AIDS sufferers was just a useful tool in an agressive marketing campaign.

I left shortly after as I was already pretty disgusted with the place.


I think we should try to do something about this Steven Turoff. Any suggestions anyone.

[Xeriar]

At the end of Man on the Moon, Andy Kaufman goes to get healed by one of these types and it shows him noticing how it's a fraud.

Not sure if that's exactly a flick British women will care for though. Are there any others that demonstrate this 'trick'?

[JimTheBrit]

Stephen Turoff,

- mentioned in James Randi: Psychic Investigator, London: Boxtree Ltd, 1991 (pages 74 to 77)

- seen on BBC1's 'UK's Worst ... Quacks' in July 2003.

Clip 1 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/UKsWorstQuacks-Turoff-1-31Jul03.mpg) of 2 (.mpg, 3mins, 34Mb).

If someone can host this first clip, I'll post clip 2 asap. Otherwise, you'll have to wait 'til tomorrow night.

[Pragmatist]

I had an interesting thought about this. The most difficult problem when going after "borderline" frauds is finding some simple and unequivocal legal ground under which they can be charged. O.K. it's fraud, but the authorities don't want to be bothered with frauds of this kind - unless there is some absolutely undeniable proof that people are being intentionally defrauded and the perp knows that its fraud. Sometimes it can be difficult to show that it is definite, intentional fraud. Practicing without a license is a possibility but as far as I can tell from web searches there is no requirement in the UK for someone to be licensed to practice medicine, unlike the US. So what could he be nailed on?

Then it hit me. According to the accounts I linked to, he uses scalpels and forceps in his "operations". And it is absolutely compulsory that instruments should be properly sterilized before operations etc., because of the risk of the spread of AIDS etc. So how about a complaint based on failure to maintain proper hygiene during operations and failure to take adequate precautions to sterilize instruments, maintain a sterile environment etc?

No, I haven't lost it! :) Think about it. What defence can he have to this? The only possible way out is to explain that he doesn't actually insert the instruments into the body of a patient and therefore sterile procedures are unneccessary. But to do that would be to admit intentional fraud wouldn't it?

Gotcha! :D

In addition, there are other possibilities. Since he claims to remove infected "body parts" from patients, then there is an issue of safe disposal. Is he complying with directives for the proper handling and disposal of contaminated medical waste? I would imagine his local authority would be very concerned to hear that he might be dumping contaminated medical waste in an improper fashion. And then there is the "blood". One account I linked to mentioned that a "patient" was covered with flecks of "blood" after an "operation". O.K. that blood may be infected with HIV mightn't it? Sounds like grounds for concern to me. With a little creativity I think there are quite a few grounds for a real killer complaint.

[Pragmatist]

DeVega: After some investigation I read what I think is the account you were referring to. I will not reveal it here either. But I can see why you were shocked, I thought it was really quite horrific.

I can fully understand D's reasons why she went - when you're in a desperate situation most people will try anything. What I don't agree with is her idea that it's harmless. I was particularly worried about her account of L's experience. She actually suffered major bruising and her skin was cut. During this "procedure" this cut was exposed to Turoff's hands (and there is no mention of him washing them at all), the scalpel and forceps and any other tools used, and also the cloth. I presume he used the same stuff on all three people. I see no reason not to assume that he used the same stuff on all the people who visited that day. Or maybe he never washes any of it at all!

Now, what if one of his previous "patients" had HIV? L could have been infected with HIV just from the skin cut alone in contact with the scalpel or other bits. There was real blood on that scalpel. Similarly if L had HIV, it could be passed to the next victim he cuts. And not just HIV either, there is hepatitis, tetanus and goodness knows what else. Maybe there is even some possibility of passing on cancerous cells to other people. Since the people who are being "treated" are genuinely sick there is a high probability of transmitted infection - how many AIDS patients does he "treat" for example? This is definitely illegal.

You may want to mention this to D. It's important. D wants to survive for her children's sake. I am sure I am not alone in wishing her all the best and I sincerely hope she recovers. But what if she gets HIV from this idiot without knowing it and then passes it to her children? It's quite possible. All it takes is an infected cut to pass it to her, and then her passing some contamination to her children if they get a cut. Not to mention the risk of passing it to her husband sexually.

Please tell her, she is not doing something harmless. She is taking a risk with her own life and with the lives of her family. The same goes for L and anyone else involved. In fact, I would strongly recommend that L sees her MD, tells him everything that happened and gets a blood test for HIV/hepatitis as soon as possible.

D thought that Turoff could not be a fraud because he only asked her to return and not L and the other lady. However, L and the other lady intend to return because they think the same! Think about the logic of it. Turoff didn't need to ask them to return because he knew they all would anyway - and by not asking them he convinced them that they should! It's reverse psychology, it's something that con artists are experts in.

In any event, this is not a harmless bit of fun. Other people will be convinced to go by D's account, and all of them and their friends and families will be put at risk of serious infection. And we don't know how many people have already died because of things like this. Hopefully none, but I'm sure we'll never know. Please try to make them understand this.

Finally, I noticed the bit about Turoff groping her breast. I get the impression he may have touched L even more intimately than that. Has anybody considered this could be an excellent way for a pervert to get a few cheap thrills? Even better still, the victim gets to pay for the privilege! This whole thing sounds to me like abuse - in many more ways than one.

[Xeriar]

Originally posted by JimTheBrit
Stephen Turoff,

- mentioned in James Randi: Psychic Investigator, London: Boxtree Ltd, 1991 (pages 74 to 77)

- seen on BBC1's 'UK's Worst ... Quacks' in July 2003.

Clip 1 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/UKsWorstQuacks-Turoff-1-31Jul03.mpg) of 2 (.mpg, 3mins, 34Mb).

If someone can host this first clip, I'll post clip 2 asap. Otherwise, you'll have to wait 'til tomorrow night.

Clip one of two :-) (http://www.anenris.com/media/UKWQ-Turoff-1.mpg)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I wouold have thought that assault is the easiest charge to lay, but you need a complainant.


It would be worth contacting the General Medical Council to ask about the process of investigating someone practising medicine without a licence, but the area is difficult because people can consent to all sorts of unpleasant things on their own behalf, by contrast and to make the point, if any of this was done to an animal then it would be outright illegal because surgical acts are well-defined and illegal for unqualified people whereas you, as an adult, can consent to another adult doing unpleasant things to you. You can enter a boxing ring and have someone hit you, but if you entered that ring and started kicking a dog for sport the law would have a different view. However, there are limits and there was a famous case of homosexual S&M hobbyists being prosecuted for assault when the pastime involved nailing each others scrotums to bits of wood (as I recall). They were found guilty even though they had the enthusiastic consent of the victim. I can't remember whether that held on appeal.

When it comes to fraud, simply contacting Trading Standards is the route to go down, but I'm not sure whether they are very keen to spend resources on difficult cases. I phoned one summer to make some enquiries about making a complaint and found an answerphone telling me that due to holiday and staff sickness there was no one in th eoffice for a week or two!

[JimTheBrit]

Originally posted by Xeriar
Clip one of two :-) (http://www.anenris.com/media/UKWQ-Turoff-1.mpg) Thanks Xeriar! Clip 2 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/UKsWorstQuacks-Turoff-2-31Jul03.mpg). I've dug up some clips on how psychic surgery's performed and lo! Guess who's mentioned? 'Nother clip tomorrow.

Edit: .mpg, 22Mb, 2mins

[DeVega]

I just don't understand how this man is still operating if he has been the subject of such investigations before. I'm guessing he must be operating only just inside the letter of the law.

Pragmatist - I think you make a very good point with regard to the saftey of the surgical implements - especially as he is definately breaking the skin on some people in order to convince them they have a 'scar.' HIV and Hep etc are definite possibilities...

However, my gut instinct is, that only if the persons he 'operates' on makes a complaint will they proceed. The health & safety aspect is perhaps the way to go - but again, second hand, anecdotal evidence might not suffice... and I sure aint going near him!

D'you think Randi might be in a position to advise? He is likely to have more clout! (That's a good thing btw for all you non-brits!;) )

DeVega

[DeVega]

Have been typing for hours - must take a break before the wee flashy lights come and get me! (Erm... that's a migraine - not aliens or angels!!!)

DeVega

[Xeriar]

Originally posted by Xeriar
Clip one of two :-) (http://www.anenris.com/media/UKWQ-Turoff-1.mpg)

Clip two of two :-) (http://www.anenris.com/media/UKWQ-Turoff-2.mpg)

[JimTheBrit]

Originally posted by Xeriar
Clip two of two :-) (http://www.anenris.com/media/UKWQ-Turoff-2.mpg) Cheers matey.

Psychic Secrets Revealed: Psychic Surgery (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/PsychicSecretsRevealed-PsychicSurgery-031003.mpg) - a cracking clip (.mpg, 46Mb, 4.5mins).

Clip 4 will show how it was performed. I'm sure I've got an mpeg of the holy ash sleight-of-hand somewhere round here too.

[The Mighty Thor]

Does anyone know if this guy "treats" young people?

I now feel like somebody standing by and doing nothing when a group of sick and vulnerable people are being violently mugged.:(

Who here has some influence with Mr Randi? This stuff goes well beyond the prize. Stopping this charlatan could actually save lives.

[Xeriar]

Originally posted by JimTheBrit
Cheers matey.

Psychic Secrets Revealed: Psychic Surgery (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/PsychicSecretsRevealed-PsychicSurgery-031003.mpg) - a cracking clip (.mpg, 46Mb, 4.5mins).

Clip 4 will show how it was performed. I'm sure I've got an mpeg of the holy ash sleight-of-hand somewhere round here too.

Psychic Surgery 1 of 2 (http://www.anenris.com/media/PSR-PsychicSurgery-1.mpg)

Half a gig already o_O Gonna have to watch this.

[Pragmatist]

Originally posted by DeVega
I just don't understand how this man is still operating if he has been the subject of such investigations before. I'm guessing he must be operating only just inside the letter of the law.

Pragmatist - I think you make a very good point with regard to the saftey of the surgical implements - especially as he is definately breaking the skin on some people in order to convince them they have a 'scar.' HIV and Hep etc are definite possibilities...

However, my gut instinct is, that only if the persons he 'operates' on makes a complaint will they proceed. The health & safety aspect is perhaps the way to go - but again, second hand, anecdotal evidence might not suffice... and I sure aint going near him!

D'you think Randi might be in a position to advise? He is likely to have more clout! (That's a good thing btw for all you non-brits!;) )

DeVega

There are several reasons why con artists often seem to get away with things:

1. Usually they need to be nailed on very specific charges and often the evidence against them relies on witness testimony from weak people who can be intimidated in court, and many witnesses are often scared to testify. It's also often difficult to find hard and irrefutable evidence that they deliberately committed a fraud (they might be simply deluded).

2. They lie. They simply lie again and again relying on the prosecution to have doubts. When faced with an accomplished liar who stridently insists on some ridiculous position, weak prosecutors/investigators sometimes fold.

3. They rely on the ignorance of judges, juries etc. They insist that their "powers" are "scientifically proven". A prosecution team with limited resources may not be able to afford sufficient expertise to prove that its all BS.

4. Most investigators give up quickly if they don't find some strong and damning evidence quickly. One con artist I investigated was an individual who had been investigated some 20 times in the course of 10 years, nobody ever found enough evidence to nail him. I spent over 8 months concentrating in detail on the tiniest details of every transaction he had ever been involved in, a job so boring and meticulous that nobody else had ever gone to that level. I nailed him with 100% irrevocable proof built step by tiny step starting from one piece of evidence that consisted of a date on which he had had a telephone installed! Something as tiny and ridiculous as that was the key to unravelling a very complex case.

But there is also a "critical mass". When enough complaints start coming in, sooner or later somebody will assign a heavy duty investigator to the case and when that happens there is a much better chance.

You can always write to Randi about this. I am sure he would be interested, but I am also sure he will tell you that he comes across dozens of these kinds of things every week and can't do much more than he already is doing - publicising the issues and asking all of us to help where we can. But please do anyway, you never know.

I've been doing some checking and it appears that the best approach is the hygiene/infectious disease issue. For the UK you can try writing a complaint to the MDA (medical devices agency), the local council for the area he lives in on the grounds of hygiene (and waste disposal) and also the trading standards office. As you say, they would prefer a complaint from a victim, but the issue of hygiene/infectious disease should override that. Either way it would be worth doing as you never know. The MDA may sound like a strange choice but apparently they are concerned with misuse of medical instruments (including failure to sterlize) and again they might take an interest (or refer the matter to another competent authority). There is also the MHRA in the UK, which although it is mainly concerned with safe use of medicines may be of interest for another reason, which I will now explain.

I was looking closely at D's account again and I noticed several interesting things I overlooked the first time. She says that after arriving she and her friends were shown into a room and left there for a while. They noticed that strange things appeared to happen to the lighting of the room. D says that she felt "the density" of the room changing, which although it is meaningless on its own implies a change in the perspective of the room. She then says that they all felt extremely tired and heavy. After that she says the temperature of the room suddenly dropped, they perked up a bit and shortly after that Turoff entered.

Later in the account after a few hours she says, "we all felt like we had had anasetic you know that horrible feeling up your nose and the back of the throat plus that awful dryness of the mouth"

That sounds to me like a classic description of an anaesthetic gas. It seems highly likely that an odorless anaesthetic gas was pumped into the room they were in while they were waiting, and they were distracted from noticing the immediate effects of the gas by some creative lighting effects. The sudden drop in temperature would be the room being vented and freshened with outside air before Turoff entered. I would imagine they were being observed on a video link the whole time. The idea being to dope them just enough to impair their critical thinking facilities, not enough to knock them out. Of course a few hours later they noticed the after effects. The thing is, that they were probably not hypnotized during the "procedure" but in fact, doped. Many anaesthetics will act as mild hallucinogens in low concentrations.

If that is the case then there are grounds for a serious complaint about drug misuse. The gas would qualify as a drug, not to mention improper use and safety issues as well.

There is another piece of evidence that suggests that Turoff may have some sort of special air venting system. In another account somebody describes him asking them what their favorite scent was, and the whole room suddenly being infused with the smell of roses. It would be easy to introduce a scent into a hidden ventilation system, either by remote control, or by an accomplice in a control room watching on an audio/video link. The sound of the excised body part hitting the bin could be done the same way. Just a simple thumper circuit hidden in the base of the bin and triggered by remote or by an accomplice watching from outside the room.

The more I look at this the worse it seems. I am reasonably confident a whole range of laws are being broken here and there are grounds for a complaint to proceed even if no victim actually testifies. Although one of the links I provided was from a victim who was ready to complain and who had been in contact with others. That may be worth following up.

[Sanamas]

If he's secretly gassing his patients, this would call for immediate action. Do any of you live near this quack?

[JimTheBrit]

Originally posted by Xeriar
Psychic Surgery 1 of 2 (http://www.anenris.com/media/PSR-PsychicSurgery-1.mpg)

Half a gig already o_O Gonna have to watch this. Dude, I only meant for you to host the first clip! I coulda cycled the others. Still, I appreciate the help.

Psychic Secrets Revealed: Psychic Surgery part 2 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/PsychicSecretsRevealed-PsychicSurgery2-031003.mpg) - psychic surgery for beginners (.mpg, 2.5mins,24Mb - you'll prolly have to fiddle with yer contrast and brightness settings).

[Asolepius]

I've just been directed to this thread by Pragmatist. Turoff's conjuring tricks don't seem to be especially novel. but to my mind there are 2 main approaches to dealing with this fraud:

1. Expose the fraud. I have some ideas - but obviously not wise to publish here.

2. Research the legal framework - he is causing actual bodily harm, even though apparently minor. I am also wondering about informed consent. Does he get this in writing? We should get hold of his consent form and patient information leaflet. It could be argued that consent does not hold as it's under duress.

Of course, there's also the Million Dollar Challenge. Turoff is doing very nicely at £25 a throw, but would he pass up the chance of a million?

[JimTheBrit]

I don't suppose Randi will take me to task for linking to these:

James Randi: Psychic Investigator, page 74 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/Turoff-1.jpg), 76 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/Turoff-2.jpg), 77 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy13/Turoff-3.jpg) (page 75 is an illustration).

Randi was way ahead of you, Pragmatist ;) As for gassing his patients in the waiting room to impair their faculties, the only influence Turoff needs to exert is to offer the needy hope. The rest they do themselves.

Originally posted by Asolepius
I've just been directed to this thread by Pragmatist. Turoff's conjuring tricks don't seem to be especially novel. but to my mind there are 2 main approaches to dealing with this fraud:

1. Expose the fraud.How much exposure does there need to be? UK's Worst ... Quacks was broadcast on BBC1 at a peak viewing time and he's still in business.

Looking into the issues surrounding practices like Mr Turoff's is something I've had on the back-burner for some time now (due to other ongoing projects). I think it's high time I started making enquiries ....

(Incidentally, if anyone knows how to get hold of copies of the UK TV series 'James Randi: Psychic Investigator' - bar paying £100 per episode for the 6(?)-episode series from ITV archives - please let me know)

[The Mighty Thor]

Pragmatist said -- I was looking closely at D's account again and I noticed several interesting things I overlooked the first time. She says that after arriving she and her friends were shown into a room and left there for a while. They noticed that strange things appeared to happen to the lighting of the room. D says that she felt "the density" of the room changing, which although it is meaningless on its own implies a change in the perspective of the room. She then says that they all felt extremely tired and heavy. After that she says the temperature of the room suddenly dropped, they perked up a bit and shortly after that Turoff entered.

Later in the account after a few hours she says, "we all felt like we had had anasetic you know that horrible feeling up your nose and the back of the throat plus that awful dryness of the mouth"

The problem with the anaesthetic theory is: where would an unmedically qualified person get a hold of such stuff? And how would he know if he accidently overdosed his victims?

I'd imagine that a hot, stuffy small room might produce similar feelings. Then the discrete air conditioning is switched on, the temperature drops, and enter the miracle worker! In the UK, air conditioning is relatively new (people might not have experienced it).

Calor gas heaters in an unventillated room can cause these symptoms -- carbon monoxide poisoning.

But as with most magic tricks, the simplest method is usually as effective if people have certain expectations.

For example, the "thump" in the bin as "nasty stuff" is thrown in reminds me of a variation on "The Miser's Dream", where the magician produces many coins from the air, and drops them audibly into a metal container.

If he palms or uses a TT to produce any "bits of tissue", these are probably from a local butcher. It's a dirty business if you think of it -- bits of raw animal tissue, and maybe animal blood -- coming into contact with open wounds:(

On this, I am unsure. Why would he risk actual bodily harm when the classic psychic surgeon illusion doesn't really need this?

And, to DeVega: Was there a "consent form" that you ladies had to sign? Do you have a copy?

[Asolepius]

Originally posted by JimTheBrit
How much exposure does there need to be? UK's Worst ... Quacks was broadcast on BBC1 at a peak viewing time and he's still in business.

[/B]
Sorry, I'm new to this thread and didn't see the BBC programme. The point I am making is that the exposure supports the legal challenge.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
However, there are limits and there was a famous case of homosexual S&M hobbyists being prosecuted for assault when the pastime involved nailing each others scrotums to bits of wood (as I recall). They were found guilty even though they had the enthusiastic consent of the victim. I can't remember whether that held on appeal.
If this is the case of R v. Brown and others, it went right the way up to the European Court of Human Rights. The convictions were upheld.

[DeVega]

a virtual aquaintance of mine that I am concerned about. (see original post.) I don't know if she filled in a consent form but I'd be pretty sure he's smart enough to get them to sign some kind of disclaimer as they wait.

I think the gas theory put forward by Pragmatist is pretty plausible. She did even say that she had the same feeling as after an anesthetic (and she is in a position to know pretty well what that feels like). It's a scary thought.

Yes, I imagine the BBC programme would support any legal challenge. The real question really, is who would make such a challenge? All I have is anger and concern based on anecdotal evidence so I am not really in a position to carry anything forward. It is interesting that the people filmed in the BBC program did not progress with any legal complaint - perhaps they thought that the expose would be sufficient to close him down - obviously that is not the case.

I feel pretty saddened and sickened about this.

DeVega
:nope:

[Xeriar]

Originally posted by The Mighty Thor
The problem with the anaesthetic theory is: where would an unmedically qualified person get a hold of such stuff? And how would he know if he accidently overdosed his victims?


Nitrous is pretty publicly available, isn't it?

[Asolepius]

Originally posted by Xeriar
Nitrous is pretty publicly available, isn't it?
You would have a hard time knocking people out with a roomful of N20. Uncontrolled gaseous or volatile anaesthetics can be very dangerous - would he take such a risk? Patients could have all sorts of undetected risk factors, which is why we have highly qualified anaesthetists. The room would need to be sealed, or people next door would be falling over as well. Seems an unlikely ploy. Having just seen the video clips, he doesn't look that sophisticated either.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Mojo
If this is the case of R v. Brown and others, it went right the way up to the European Court of Human Rights. The convictions were upheld.

Interesting. Now if you could just help me get the nails out of my scrotum I'll be able to stand up and sue the SoB that put them there, "Just a little help with some DIY", he said. "I'm putting up some shelves. Could you pass me the hammer and nails?", he said. Well I've learnt at least one lesson here.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Seriously though. What we need is an aggrieved victim prepared to take a stand or a public official prepared to put some work in.

[Pragmatist]

To address several posts in one:

Firstly, thanks Jim for the Randi excerpts. I haven't read Randi's book and that was the first I'd heard of that.

Yes, there is no direct evidence of an anaesthetic gas, although there are some clues that tend to suggest it. I've been looking through many accounts of people who have experience with Turoff and the idea of an anaesthetic crops up several times in different accounts. Here is one:

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/writing/Skeptic/pd24.html

"S.N. Burley wrote to Psychic News describing a physical operation Turoff performed, and his report is horrifying: first, Turoff warned that the operation would cause some discomfort. Mr Burley says `This was quite true; at times it was almost unbearable, but some of the pain could have been due to fear as I realised what Dr Kahn was doing. After the incision, which was painless, his hand appeared to penetrate through my flesh and muscle. It seemed as though his hand was right in my stomach. He twisted and probed, and then poured plasma into the area, which he said would be cold-and it was. . . when I dismounted from the couch I felt weak and sore. . . several hours later when the anaesthetic had worn off, I really was in pain. The scar was very pronounced, and my flesh was red and bruised.'"

I read another one that I didn't note the link to, where someone recounted visiting Turoff's "clinic" and encountering several people who were unconscious following "operations". This person was told they were "sleeping off the anaesthetic".

Although plenty of other accounts mention that no anaesthetic is either used or necessary. Go figure.

Anyway, my point was not that he would be trying to knock out his victims. The idea is that perhaps he could watch the people waiting in the "operating room" before he entered and could infuse a small amount of an anaesthetic gas into the air of the room just to dull the senses a bit and make them more susceptible to suggestion, more like a hypnotic in the pharmaceutical sense. He could easily watch them on video and see when they were starting to flag a little and then quickly vent the room before anybody actually lost consciousness.

As for safety and taking a risk, does anyone seriously believe that he cares whether or not he puts people at risk? This is the guy cutting into people with unsterilized instruments remember!

I don't know what gas could be used for this (or even whether it might be a gas, it could just as easily be some fine particulate hallucinogen or a soporific oil). I thought of Nitrous Oxide, but low doses of Nitrous tend to make people giggly, and judging by the accounts that many people feel tired, lethargic and often fearful, I would imagine it would have to be a depressant in low doses whatever it was. I assume that such a thing would be odorless, but possibly not if the place is soaked with incense to start with.

It is only a theory, but I am concerned that there are some indications this could be the case. One thing that predisposes me to this idea is that he seems to be very keen on physical reinforcement. Most "psychic surgeons" don't actually cut or scar the skin. Every account tells of him throwing something into a bin with an audible bump (although nothing is ever seen and the bin is empty afterwards - one exception being an account of some cotton wool being thrown). Therefore, I wonder if he would be prepared to use some pharmaceutical agent as further reinforcement. Remember also that this doesn't happen while he is in the room.

He doesn't need to use pieces of meat or fake blood. As I just mentioned he tells them the object "excised" is non material in this physical plane. People see a throwing action and hear a bump in the bin, but rarely see anything actually thrown, and the only thing that is ever seen is cotton wool in some cases. He apparently pours some liquid on some people, the account above talks of "plasma", again, not fake blood.

As to why he does it, remember that most "psychic surgeons" operate in 3rd world countries where people generally are more superstitious and less critical - and the foreigners who are prepared to pay a lot of money and go to a lot of trouble to see them are already highly gullible. I have watched curanderos in Mexico perform the most amateur tricks that I thought wouldn't fool anybody, but I've also seen groups of local people lap it up and declare it to be a miracle. Perhaps because he is operating in Britain where people tend to be more suspicious he needs to use more reinforcement than his third world counterparts would in their countries.

This could also account for why he doesn't use the fake blood/meat routine, there is a much greater chance of being caught out if someone gets a sample to a lab. One account mentions flecks of blood, but if he doesn't claim it is blood then there is really nothing for anybody to act on. If some red flecks are found that are not blood, he can easily come up with some post hoc rationalization without exposing himself.

As for why he is still operating, I think it's simply because nobody has yet come up with physical evidence of fraud. Of course all of us here know that it's a fraud, but none of us have any direct physical evidence. And that I think is the crux of the matter.

The consent form by the way wouldn't really cover him for anything legally. I don't think that is anything to worry about. The only thing it establishes is that he doesn't promise to heal and that the procedure was optional. Beyond that, it doesn't cover him for fraud and no disclaimer can protect against a claim for actual injury under British law.

Anyway, adverse publicity is not enough, it's hard physical proof that is needed.

[The Mighty Thor]

Pragmatist -- I take all your points onboard. I see how you are thinking with the "physical reinforcement". I was thinking of the "traditional psychic surgery" that used animal parts and blood. As you rightly say, this guy is keeping any physical evidence that could be tested out of his performance. And, of course, it would be to his advantage if his victims were under the influence of some gas or narcotic. I suppose someone could arrange an appointment, "sample the air" ?, and then leave (as though in panic). Again, even were this possible there are chain of evidence issues etc.

So, even in an assualt case, it would come down to:

"Can the injured party prove these injuries were caused by the psychic surgeon"?

For fraud? He has loads of "outs" including the final, "well, it wasn't me, it was Dr Kahn -- the spirit."

He seems to be fireproof? ??:(

[The Mighty Thor]

I know there is nothing funny about this thread, but I could not help but think of this court case set up in a Pythonesque sketch where the Judge says "Call Dr Kahn" and the clerk repeats this, the guy at the door shouts "Calling Dr Kahn." No reply.

Cut to clerks (in silly national costumes) in

Swiss Alps "Calling Dr Kahn!" nothing, but echo.
Sahara Desert "Calling Dr Kahn."
Grand Canyon "Calling Dr Kahn", echo

and so on . . .

Then to a St Peter in Heaven scene -- "Calling Dr Kahn!"

Dr Khan "Here."

St Peter "You are being called back to Earth."

Dr Kahn "I've told you before. I no longer DO HOME VISITS"

Yeah, I know -- don't give up my day job!

[Pragmatist]

Bumped for Tim's benefit. Who said wombats were quick off the mark? :D

[tim]

My apologies, I have only just found this thread. I know of Turroff of old. I just out and out detest this bloke - he makes me incandescent with rage.
I will do anything in my power to help bring this man down. If you want to make personal contact to discuss tactics please PM me and I'll provide you with my phone and address details. The last I heard Turroff was operating out of Chelmsford, just over an hour from me.
I'm serious about going after this man - he needs to be stopped.

[Asolepius]

Originally posted by tim
My apologies, I have only just found this thread. I know of Turroff of old. I just out and out detest this bloke - he makes me incandescent with rage.
I will do anything in my power to help bring this man down. If you want to make personal contact to discuss tactics please PM me and I'll provide you with my phone and address details. The last I heard Turroff was operating out of Chelmsford, just over an hour from me.
I'm serious about going after this man - he needs to be stopped.
I just spoke to the GMC about this. They do deal with unregistered practitioners. We have to write to the Fitness to Practice Directorate, General Medical Council, St James Building, 79 Oxford Street Manchester, M1 6FQ. Anyone can complain, doesn't have to be a victim. Let's go for it.

[tim]

OK, during the day I did some research on Mr Turoff (see, my profile is accurate) and I now have some more details about our esteemed healer, like his home address, age, etc., so we can be a bit more detailed in our complaint if you wish.
It is not JREF policy to publish personal information on the forum, however, so anyone who wants this information can email me on tim.walker4@ntlworld.com

[JimTheBrit]

Check your email, Tim .... again! (Soz!)

[tim]

Originally posted by JimTheBrit
Check your email, Tim .... again! (Soz!)

Soz back! Now check yours!

[DeVega]

I plan to write to the GMC address given in the New Year. Hope you all make progress also...

Keep me posted?
Ta muchly

DeVega