SIEGFRIED VERBEKE, moron

[KRAMER]

I see that no one has commented on the recent application of Mr. Verbeke, a Holocaust Denier of some notoriety.

I don't blame any of you. I'd like to ignore it, too.

[apoger]

There isn't much to discuss.

A> He's a fruitcake
B> The claim is dangerous, and you correctly told him that it violates the rules
C> Obviously he thinks he has a method to survive the exposure. It is unlikely to be supernatural. Note how he doesn't say that he can breathe the gas, he says that he can be exposed to the same conditions that killed others. There is a difference.


He is a scumbag that is trying to gain some publicity with a trick, who was rightly denied by the JREF. There isn't much else to say.

[KRAMER]

Do a google search on him. You wouldn't believe it.

Nothing can stop this guy - not even a jail sentence.

Remember, most European countries (as well as Canada) have serious laws regarding denying history when doing so causes harm to religious or ethnic groups.

[Nex]

He's obviously some nutball Holocaust denier looking for a publicity stunt to bring his crusade to the media. Good thing his stunt idea violated challenge rules.

[webfusion]

I've re-read the original application and wondered something about the odd way it is presented:

Is there any chance that the application is a hoax? Could it be from someone other than Verbeke, in an attempt to place him in ridicule? (and succeeded)

This is the fax/phone # of Verbeke 00 32 3 272 1313
(from one of the links offered). Kramer, you have been in contact with "Verbeke" by email and snail mail, so where do the mails originate? Is there anything that indicates to you that the address indeed is from him?

Just curious.

{{{ You wanted comment, this is all I can come up with, lame as it is, sorry }}}

[Beady]

Originally posted by Nex
He's obviously some nutball Holocaust denier looking for a publicity stunt to bring his crusade to the media. Good thing his stunt idea violated challenge rules.

Not necessarilly. A public display of Zyklon B's effectiveness would at least temporarily silence that particular objection, and would also permanently rid the world of one of the objection's more vocal proponents.

I hope he takes it into his head to carry through with his demonstration. Providing, of course, that he fulfills his promise that he will be the test subject.

[CptColumbo]

Kramer,
How tempting is it to just send back an application with just "BITE ME!" written on it?

[webfusion]

A public display of Zyklon B's effectiveness would at least temporarily silence that particular objection, and would also permanently rid the world of one of the objection's more vocal proponents.

Assuming the claimant is not verbeke but only trying to cast verbeke as an idiot and a moron, then the entry of a claim here certainly is working really well in the pursuit of that end.

Kramer, what about it? Can you authenticate Verbeke himself being the author of the application, or is there some way to verify that he isn't?

I really want it to be him, in case you are wondering. As an Israeli, I have no use for Nazis or Holocaust apologists/deniers.

(BTW, I am a close relative of "the Pianist" Wladyslaw Szpilman, a survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto Massacres).

[Beady]

Originally posted by webfusion
Assuming the claimant is not verbeke but only trying to cast verbeke as an idiot and a moron, then the entry of a claim here certainly is working really well in the pursuit of that end.

If you have followed the links Kramer provided, then there's really very little need to cast Verbeke as an idiot and moron. His own actions and the public record have already done that. While it is usually beneficial to ice a cake, there's not normally a purpose to layering more icing onto icing that's already there.

[webfusion]

How many of the thousands of readers on JREF previously were aware of Verbeke? It is not inconceivable that a Danish person who was disgusted by Verbeke's outrageous public claims decided to bring his name (and background) into the light through the method of the famous James Randi Million Dollar Challenge. The hoax is easy enough to perpetrate.

What makes me suspicious is the way the ZyklonB effects are decribed in the application:
"Hundreds of thousands (even millions) of Jewish people are killed in the Auschwitz gas chambers by hydrogen cyanide (HCN) in the form of Zyklon B."

This is an admission that the deaths occurred.
I wonder if the real Verbeke would concede the point. His entire POV is that there were never any actual death-gas chambers, and only de-lousing or hygenic rooms exisited ("the showers").
+++++++++++++++++++++++

Actually, I hope you never hear further from the guy. A pox on his house.

[Beady]

Originally posted by webfusion
It is not inconceivable that a Danish person who was disgusted by Verbeke's outrageous public claims decided to bring his name (and background) into the light through the method of the famous James Randi Million Dollar Challenge.

"Famous"? I'm the only person I know who's heard of it. No, that's not quite true; I do know people who know about it, but only because I've told them.

So, what you're saying is, some anonymous Dutch vigilante doesn't think Verbeke's own publicity seeking has been effective enough, and has decided to help him out by doing a "Joe job" on him, thus taking the risk (if the scheme is uncovered) of making Verbeke appear as a victim?

Well, you've convinced me.

Unless, of course, Verbeke is only making it appear that an anonymous Dutch vigilante is persecuting him by faking a Challenge application, thus making him appear as a victim and thereby garnering sympathy and support.

Y'know, I think my version makes more sense than yours does.

[webfusion]

In any case, I am hoping for something from KRAMER that will offer more details as to where the application originated...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

New database website of Yad Vashem in Israel opens tomorrow (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/504292.html)

This link is being posted as a pure countermeasure to the insanity of Verbeke. I urge everyone to take a look and recall the enormity of the loss. It was not only a Jewish tragedy, it was a Holocaust of innocent human souls across Europe.
"This is the moral duty of the Jewish people, our last respects to the victims." "The museum put some 1,500 people to work a decade ago, turning written testimony into digital information," said Esti Yaari, Yad Vashem's media liaison.

[Beady]

Originally posted by webfusion
In any case, I am hoping for something from KRAMER that will offer more details as to where the application originated...

(sigh) I really have no idea why you think this is an issue, nor do I have any idea why you think anyone would think it necessary to make a bigot look like a bigot when they, themselves, already seem to be doing an adequate job of it. I do see where you said, "What makes me suspicious is the way the ZyklonB effects are decribed in the application," but I think you're making 'way too much of how a non-native-Anglophone turns a phrase.

New database website of Yad Vashem in Israel opens tomorrow (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/504292.html)

This link is being posted as a pure countermeasure to the insanity of Verbeke.

Nor do I see why you think "countermeasures" are necessary, especially on *these* boards. You do realize, don't you, that in this particular venue you are "preaching to the choir," as it were? Mind you, I don't have a problem with you posting such links, I just think that, given the context, you are grossly overreacting.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by KRAMER
Remember, most European countries (as well as Canada) have serious laws regarding denying history when doing so causes harm to religious or ethnic groups.

They do? AFAIK, only Germany has laws like that.

Evidence? :)

[Dr Adequate]

These people might want to know about him. (http://www.darwinawards.com/stupid/) Except that "honorable" is not quite the word we're looking for here.

[misawafan]

Originally posted by KRAMER
Do a google search on him. You wouldn't believe it.

Nothing can stop this guy - not even a jail sentence.

Remember, most European countries (as well as Canada) have serious laws regarding denying history when doing so causes harm to religious or ethnic groups.

I seem to recall that during the Holocaust many people were beaten to death as well. I wonder if he'd like to test that claim? I suspect we could find some volunteers to assist...

[KRAMER]

Originally posted by webfusion
Kramer, what about it? Can you authenticate Verbeke himself being the author of the application, or is there some way to verify that he isn't?

His application arrived with his notarized signature, as per the Challenge rules. I must assume that he is indeed who he claims to be.

[KRAMER]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
They do? AFAIK, only Germany has laws like that.

Evidence? :)

====================================

According to what I saw on the web, he has been sentenced to one year in prison in The Netherlands as a result of publishing and distributing such data, and is presently fighting a similar battle in Belgium.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by KRAMER
====================================

According to what I saw on the web, he has been sentenced to one year in prison in The Netherlands as a result of publishing and distributing such data, and is presently fighting a similar battle in Belgium.

Links?

(Nobody gets off the hook. Especially skeptics... :))

[Beleth]

"moron"?

Is this guy really any more of a moron than anyone else who applies for the Challenge?

At least the only person he's willing to harm is himself, and not thousands of people sending him three easy payments of $39.99 each...

Besides, "moron" is highly subjective and unneccessarily pejorative. I much prefer the original "Belgian suicidal".

[webfusion]

signature is sufficient.

Beady is absolutely correct, there is nothing to indicate my "take" on this has any validity. I do appreciate the Challenge administrator making it crystal clear who he is dealing with.


For the record, Israel's Holocaust Museum Website (YadVaShem) had over 400,000 visitors in the 24-hours since the victims database was posted. (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/504860.html) Since Sunday morning, surfers around the world could fill out Pages of Testimony and e-mail them into the center for inclusion. In this manner, Yad Vashem hopes to compile 5-million victims' names.

No, it's not a counter-measure to anything. I am simply one of those who Honor their memory so generations remain aware and never let it happen again.


I will avoid any further mention of this defective Belgian individual and go read about other, more fascinating and inspiring Challenge applicants...

[Carn]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CFLarsen
Links?

(Nobody gets off the hook.
[QUOTE]

You should have just checked the links in the challenge application section, the first one is about the 1 year sentence.

=========================================
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Dissenters/verbeke.htm

http://www.revisionists.com/revisionists/verbeke.html

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/z...101/010111.html

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/98/07/a...beke200798.html

http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw97-8/holland.html
==========================================

Carn

[Ashles]

"moron"?

Is this guy really any more of a moron than anyone else who applies for the Challenge?

At least the only person he's willing to harm is himself, and not thousands of people sending him three easy payments of $39.99 each...

Besides, "moron" is highly subjective and unneccessarily pejorative. I much prefer the original "Belgian suicidal".
Moron is an extremely polite way of referring to this disgusting wretch.

He's not a moron for applying for the challenge, he is a moron for his attitudes towards the holocaust.

His challenge aplication is obviously some twisted way of trying to get more attention for himself and his cause.

I would never dream of encouraging anyone to commit suicide, or wish harm on others. However, that said, when this person does eventually die then, on overall average, the world will become a slightly more pleasant place, and slightly less filled with racism and hatred.

[gmanontario]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
They do? AFAIK, only Germany has laws like that.

Evidence? :)
No idea about other countries but here is a link to Canada's laws regarding morons like this one.

Anti-hate Propoganda Laws in Canada (http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/insmt-gst.nsf/en/sf02998e.html)

[Beleth]

Originally posted by Ashles
Moron is an extremely polite way of referring to this disgusting wretch.

He's not a moron for applying for the challenge, he is a moron for his attitudes towards the holocaust.Well, okay, if that's how you feel. I tend to pity such deluded people (and make no mistake, he is deluded) instead of hate them, but maybe that's just me. At least he's not converting anyone here. I wonder if he does his cause more harm than good by bringing it under this level and quality of scrutiny.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by gmanontario
No idea about other countries but here is a link to Canada's laws regarding morons like this one.

Anti-hate Propoganda Laws in Canada (http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/insmt-gst.nsf/en/sf02998e.html)

There's a difference between hate-speech and historical denial.

[Carn]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
They do? AFAIK, only Germany has laws like that.

Evidence? :)

From first link posted above:

"A Belgian court sentenced an unrepentant Holocaust denier to a one-year suspended prison term for distributing pamphlets belittling the Nazi genocide against the Jews during World War Two."

That's of course not proof, but at least a indication, that in Belgium telling that Nazi genocide was not that bad, could be enough for being dragged before court.

Carn

[webfusion]

Speaking about the courtrooms and legal issues of the Holocaust,

Have you read the book "QB VII" ? (Leon Uris)

Worth finding a copy and sitting down for a while.

[gmanontario]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
There's a difference between hate-speech and historical denial.

True but thats what got Zundel behind bars here after being turfed from the USA. Hopefully that moron will join this moron behind bars in Europe. Our lawmakers classify anti-holocaust as hate propoganda. Whether it's right or wrong is up to the lawyers I suppose.
Apparently (and I don't have the link right now I'm at work) thats the laws they use to get rid of holocaust deniers who actively promote hatred against the vicims of the Holocaust. There were several groups here like the Aryan nation and other white supremacy groups trying to deny it took place that have all been shut down using those laws. AFAIK, nobody has beaten those laws yet. Of course I'm willing to be shown wrong if someone has beaten that law.

[KRAMER]

Verbeke has written back, sadly. Made me mad, too.

After much consideration (thinking hard about some forum members comments that this moron should be pitied), and after a long chat with Randi about how much money the major Holocaust Deniers make in lecture fees, publishing, membership drives (see www.vho.org), etc...I can find not an ounce of pity for this fellow.

He may not be so much of a deluded moron as he is a morally corrupt businessman. He doesn't care what he does or says, or whom he inflicts emotional injury upon. His public agenda may be a political one, but his personal goals are financial. He's scum.

He's also a businessman, and like all the other scam artists exploiting the ignorant masses, he deserves no pity whatsoever.

Indeed, I strongly believe that he deserves something entirely other.

See his latest letter in the Challenge Applications section.
My reply to him (my FINAL reply) is posted beneath it.

It took a great summoning of fortitude to be an employee of JREF in this letter, and not the angry quasi-intellectual that I really am.

[Ashles]

Quote from racist moron 'claimant'
Why your kind of people need laws and jails? Lack of good arguments?
Yes, good arguments always prevent those who are right from getting hurt.
I'm sure if an old Jewish man met a Neo-Nazi thug in a dark alleyway good argument would prevail.

Everyone, take a short moment out of your day to get down on your knees and pray for thanks, or sit in a moment's thoughtful contemplation (whatever your personal belief system) and be grateful that you are not so consumed with bitterness, hate, anger and mental issues as Siegried Verbeke.

Let us look at what mankind has the capability to be when it goes wrong, and be grateful that, no matter how bad our personal situation may be at the moment, at least we do not have whatever mental demons this man has in his head crawling around in ours.

I stand by the last 2 sentences of my previous post.