Question for Christians - #2

[Patrick]

If god is All-Good, why doesn't He stop evil in the world? He can if He wants to because He's All-Powerful, right? Why would He stand by and do nothing, e.g., during the Holocaust? In fact, since He is All-Knowing, He would have known from the beginning that the Holocaust would occur - then why would He create a world where it would occur?

[Kopji]

The only real argument left to Christians is that in allowing evil to persist God is promoting a greater good.

We see death and suffering as an evil only because we are human. We could guess that God places the same value on death and suffering, but most religions see applying our own perspective as equal to God as being a kind of blasphemy.

[Patrick]

The only real argument left to Christians is that in allowing evil to persist God is promoting a greater good.

Really, really hard to swallow -- God doesn't have to "promote" anything -- being All-Powerful, he could have created a world devoid of evil, where there is no need to use evil to promote good, a very dubious proposition itself (reminds me of Abbie Hoffman's famous Vietnam War era slogan "Fighting for peace is like f_cking for virginity.")

[Kopji]

Abbie Hoffman's famous Vietnam War era slogan "Fighting for peace is like f_cking for virginity.

LOL That's a great quote.

The religious pov though, is that God's existence is an axiom. To even be able to question God's existence probably requires a kernel of unbelief.

There is a case to be made that even questioning 'why God allows evil' is a kind of blasphemy: A path to heresy or greater unbelief.

[Patrick]

The religious pov though, is that God's existence is an axiom. To even be able to question God's existence probably requires a kernel of unbelief.

There is a case to be made that even questioning 'why God allows evil' is a kind of blasphemy: A path to heresy or greater unbelief.


Blasphemy is only attributable to believers, which would exclude me. I can allow Christians the axiomatic existence of God, but I can't allow them logical self-contradiction.

[geni]

Free will.

Thinking that you know better than an all powerful all knowing being is illogical.

[Patrick]

Thinking that you know better than an all powerful all knowing being is illogical.

Not unless He is able to change the laws of logic when convenient.

[geni]

Originally posted by Patrick
Not unless He is able to change the laws of logic when convenient.

I think that is included in the defintion of all powerful.

[Patrick]

I think that is included in the defintion of all powerful.

Nope. In one philosohy class I took, it was asked whether God, being All-Powerful, can make a square circle. Consensus answer was no, God can't get away with self-contradictions any more than anyone else.

[geni]

Originally posted by Patrick
I think that is included in the defintion of all powerful.

Nope. In one philosohy class I took, it was asked whether God, being All-Powerful, can make a square circle. Consensus answer was no, God can't get away with self-contradictions any more than anyone else.

It depends on the god. The gods of the major branches of christianity and islam could according to standard theology. I don't know about any of the others.

[Kopji]

Main Entry: blas·phe·my
...the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
...the act of claiming the attributes of deity
...irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable
http://www.m-w.com/

In places of the world where blasphemy is punishable by death, I'm pretty sure it applies to unbelievers as well as believers. The application may not be universal though, and it is not really germane to the topic.

The issue of God perceiving a 'greater good', and so 'allows' evil to exist is coherent. (Even if we reject it as something we are willing to believe).

On 'peace' - although we all value the goal of peace, to many religions including Christianity it is actually incidental to the more important eventual dominion of God over the world. Sure, the world would have peace, not as a specific goal - but because God ruled over all.

On the matter of God making a square box. Or God making a rock so heavy he cannot lift etc. These are very koan-like statements. A response to a koan is to sort of 'break out of the box' of our traditional thinking. Humm, maybe something like a catalyst for introducing a deeper idea.

A koan response to the statement 'can God make a stone he cannot lift?' might be 'we don't understand, but God can lift the heaviest heart'. This is not an easy concept but is related to an ancient kind of crazy wisdom. Such paradoxes are found in all lasting religions.

[Patrick]

The issue of God perceiving a 'greater good', and so 'allows' evil to exist is coherent.

OK, let's get down to cases - suppose God permits the AIDS epidemic to exist (and He did, if He exists) - what's the greater good that has or will come out of it? Remember, it has to be so great as to outweigh the suffering of tens of millions of people. I'm all ears - what's the greater good?

Oh wait - let me guess the answer - if it doesn't seem to me there is a greater good, it's just because I'm not All-Wise like God.

[Oleron]

Originally posted by Patrick
I think that is included in the defintion of all powerful.

Nope. In one philosohy class I took, it was asked whether God, being All-Powerful, can make a square circle. Consensus answer was no, God can't get away with self-contradictions any more than anyone else.

Good point. God follows the laws of logic same as everyone else.
It is one thing to say that god can turn water into wine - that is 'just' a miracle - but it is quite different to say that god can do the logically nonsensical.

[Beerina]

Originally posted by geni
It depends on the god. The gods of the major branches of christianity and islam could according to standard theology. I don't know about any of the others.

Fine. He can make a square circle.

Can God make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it?

Can God make a woman so sexy even he is forced to drool and fantasize about her against his will?

Saying yeah but he can lift the heaviest heart is a cop-out. Of course, "God can do anything" really means "anything that is possible". Anything else means nothing more or less than "it's possible to do things that are impossible", which is a contradiction in the very definitions.

Nah, I still believe God is a perverted voyeur who "experiences" all the perverted sex acts at any given moment around the world. With maybe the occasional Robbie Knevil jump thrown in, even though he knows he cannot die, he may conveniently force himself to forget that for the duration of the jump, to get the max cheap thrill from it.

That's what I'd do.

Aside from ending evil first and immediately, of course, which, since God doesn't do that, makes me evil. But he told me to help the unfortunate ending misery. I guess the closer I get to God, and the easier it is for me to end misery, the less I am supposed to do to end misery. It's all so confusing...

[Eleatic Stranger]

"Fighting for peace is like f_cking for virginity."

I know that's supposed to sound humorous, but if you think about it an increase in *********** does correllate nicely to an increase in the number of virgins present.

Also, the general reason as far as I know that God can't do logically impossible things (make square circles, etc), is that logically impossible things like that are - technically - semantically empty. In other words, we can stick the words 'square' and 'circle' together, but when we do we aren't referring to something (a 'square circle') and asking if God could create it, we're just making a nonsensical mishmash of our language. It's more akin to asking, "If God is omnipotent, can he wsaeoludngyhpwerakga?"

The fact that he probably can't isn't really due to any limitation of his powers.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Patrick

If god is All-Good, why doesn't He stop evil in the world? He can if He wants to because He's All-Powerful, right? Why would He stand by and do nothing, e.g., during the Holocaust? In fact, since He is All-Knowing, He would have known from the beginning that the Holocaust would occur - then why would He create a world where it would occur? Maybe God doesn't believe in fairy tales? :D

[Donks]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Maybe God doesn't believe in fairy tales? :D
Hmmm, which fairy tale are you refering to? Considering Patrick's example is the Holocaust, are you saying that the Holocaust is fairy tale?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Donks

Hmmm, which fairy tale are you refering to? Considering Patrick's example is the Holocaust, are you saying that the Holocaust is fairy tale? You know, the one that says everyone has to live happily ever after.