Argghhh... THIS utter HOGWASH!!!

[Dr. Imago]

I just re-visited the h'pathy forum to see if I was still "banned"; I am. So, I went to their "read this first" section to see just how open-minded they were about having countervailing opinions presented on their forum, and I saw this...

Another breed that often comes here, is that of skeptics. People, who do not believe in homeopathy, consider it a hoax, a placebo effect and what not. We even welcome such people – IF – they come here with an open mind – to discuss not to argue. We can share each other’s views, discuss the methods used in homeopathy and conventional medicine, their pros and cons, their logic, scientific basis, results and so on. We may not always agree but with constructive dialogue we can all learn from each other. The only condition is that such people will have to shed their prejudice first, be open to experience and do not limit themselves to the theory. There is more to homeopathy than what meets the eyes. If skeptics are open to clinical experiences and homeopaths are open to discuss their approach toward science and logic, we both can enrich ourselves. We all can work on the theories we believe in but it is not necessary that difference in approach should always breed bitterness.

http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//forum_posts.asp?TID=756&PN=1

This really, really, REALLY (pardon my French) pisses me off. They do not welcome skeptics. Period. And, we are not the ones being close-minded. To them, the word discuss equals "agree". They have already made up their minds that homeopathy works, and they will do anything - including censor, delete, and expunge off of their forum - anything that opposes this viewpoint.

NB: We don't do that here.

Honestly, it's rubbish like this that sells their woo crap. I know that some people actually read this and think to themselves, "Hmmm... see. Those skeptics are unreasonable and close-minded", but I still never cease to be amazed that this sophistic (and just outright b.s.) is consistently bought by people who want to believe in their magical faery medicine.

The irony is that the exact opposite of this posted statement is what occurs on that forum. The reason why their (yes, it's their) behavior "breeds bitterness" is that when they don't like what you have to say and they can no longer answer your reasonable questions, they brand you 'close-minded' and delete your posts. Just the characterization of skeptics as a "breed", akin to animals, should be enough to completely infuriate anyone who questions their childish practices.

:mad:

-TT

[Bruce]

Yeah! If these people were open to arguements, disagreements, and logic, they would be..................skeptics.

[Eos of the Eons]

Oh we know TT. They totally ignore that at the SKEPTICS board there are no posts deleted if skeptics don't agree with them. Any evidence of their deletions at THEIR boards is erased along with the deletion.

They are full blown hypocrites.

[Drooper]

I had trouble understanding this so I ran it through the Google translator. The following came out; I have appended the translation in red.

Another breed that often comes here, is that of skeptics . People, who do not believe in homeopathy, consider it a hoax, a placebo effect and what not. We even welcome such people – IF – they come here with an open mind [leave 100 of their IQ points at the door] – to discuss not to argue [do not disagree with any remark or claim we make, however preposterous]. We can share each other’s views [never question what we claim], discuss the methods used in homeopathy and conventional medicine [this is a talking shop where we get to spout crap without having to justify what we say], their pros and cons [as defined and measured by us], their logic [we're not exactly sure what this means, but we think it sounds good, so it's in], scientific basis [ditto], results and so on. We may not always agree [but don't you even think about saying so] but with constructive dialogue [nothing we say can be classed as wrong - regardless of any evidence you might bring] we can all learn from each other [but only in accordance with our curriculum ]. The only condition is that such people will have to shed their prejudice first [leave your common sense at the door], be open to experience [only first, second or third hand anecdote counts for anything around here OK?] and do not limit themselves to the theory [theory of homeopathy as set out by Hanemann and any other theories associated espoused or claimed by homeopaths in this or any other fora]. There is more to homeopathy than what meets the eyes [we don't need any proof, we know it is true]. If skeptics are open to clinical experiences [remember, anecdotes only please]and homeopaths are open to discuss their approach toward science and logic [keep things EXTREMELY brief], we both can enrich ourselves [well, us more than you - this homeopathy is a decent paying gig OK?]. We all can work on the theories we believe in [just keep yours away from us alright?] but it is not necessary that difference in approach should always breed bitterness [because we can always boot your arse out of here and erase anything you write].

[geni]

Yeah it is bad. I much prefer the rules of homeopathy cafe

This board has a zero tolerance policy regarding TROLLS and any member of professional skeptic site such as Quackbusters and Amazing Randi. Any member of these sites will be immediately banned. Any suspected member will be banned. Anyone posting in a "Trolling" manner, as determined by the board owner, will be banned. The owner of the board reserves the right to ban anyone at anytime as is seen fit.


http://com1.runboard.com/bhomeopathywellnesscenter.fboardrules.t1

I think they make themselves pretty clear.

[MRC_Hans]

The funniest thing is that they are rather poor at spotting trolls, especially if they pretend to be Pakistani. Usually when one arrives, I look at the first post and think: "Heheh, wonder who that is?", but they susually first catch on after a while.

Strangely, I'm tolerated. Perhaps because the for some reason venerated Dr. Mas spoke up for me once.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by geni
Yeah it is bad. I much prefer the rules of homeopathy cafe



http://com1.runboard.com/bhomeopathywellnesscenter.fboardrules.t1

I think they make themselves pretty clear. Heheh, a short perusal of that forum brought this little gem where our wee passkey explains the immune system (http://com1.runboard.com/bhomeopathywellnesscenter.fmainchat.t73). How easy thing are when you can just make it up as you go, and not fear contradictions :rolleyes:.


Hans

[CFLarsen]

My opening post (http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//forum_posts.asp?TID=2445&PN=1&TPN=1)

[Drooper]

Banned :D

[geni]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
My opening post (http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//forum_posts.asp?TID=2445&PN=1&TPN=1)

You may get a couple of answers but don't push your luck.

[malbui]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Heheh, a short perusal of that forum brought this little gem where our wee passkey explains the immune system (http://com1.runboard.com/bhomeopathywellnesscenter.fmainchat.t73). How easy thing are when you can just make it up as you go, and not fear contradictions :rolleyes:.


Hans

Now I see why my career as a scientist stopped so abruptly after my MSc. I never learned How to use Random capitals to add Emphasis to my text.

Oh yeah, and I had to know what the hell I was talking about, too.

[CFLarsen]

My thread at H'pathy has just been deleted.

Saved Hpathy-thread (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/hpathy/0004.htm)

Can anyone explain why merely asking what is acceptable can cause a thread to be deleted, with no explanation whatsoever?

[kookbreaker]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Can anyone explain why merely asking what is acceptable can cause a thread to be deleted, with no explanation whatsoever?

No offense, Claus, but expecting reason from the inherently unreasonable is in itself a form of madness.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
My thread at H'pathy has just been deleted.

Saved Hpathy-thread (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/hpathy/0004.htm)

Can anyone explain why merely asking what is acceptable can cause a thread to be deleted, with no explanation whatsoever?

Claus, didn't you know you passed through to the twilight zone?

Abandon any logic all ye who enter this server.

[Dr. Imago]

From Claus' post on the now-deleted thread...

Your contention is apparently that merely asking what is acceptable is causing "trouble", but is it also the official stance of the moderators?

Apparently it is.

-TT

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by kookbreaker
No offense, Claus, but expecting reason from the inherently unreasonable is in itself a form of madness.

Perhaps. I did try to investigate for myself, though. :)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Drooper
Claus, didn't you know you passed through to the twilight zone?

Abandon any logic all ye who enter this server.

I sought evidence for myself. What can I say...?

[Eos of the Eons]

http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/Chair-Fall1.gif

The whole thread gone. So predictable.

Drooper has spelled it out.

The other site at least doesn't lie about their intolerance to reasonable questions.

Homeopathy is utter hogwash, thus it must be defended vigilantly with no questions asked.

[Dr. Imago]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Homeopathy is utter hogwash, thus it must be defended vigilantly with no questions asked.

http://www.scentednectar.com/smilies/idea-01.gif

Maybe we should make a homeopathic Hogwash. We hose-down a bunch of dirty pigs, then prepare the effluent to 30C. We can all take it as a cure for our skepticism!

-TT

[Eos of the Eons]

ROFLMAO!! Oh, hey...I bet one of the homeos is doing a proving on that as we type! Mind, I don't think they could ever experience symptoms of critical thought. Hmmm. Oh well, they'll make it up as they go along as usual.

What is the Latin name for "hogwash"...I bet it will appear on store shelves soon!

Man, a high potency cure for skepticism would turn all us into homeoquacks http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/scared1.gif

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by ThirdTwin
http://www.scentednectar.com/smilies/idea-01.gif

Maybe we should make a homeopathic Hogwash. We hose-down a bunch of dirty pigs, then prepare the effluent to 30C. We can all take it as a cure for our skepticism!

-TT Hopefully, it should be a cure for the homeopaths, not for us. Like cures like, and all that... ;).

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
My thread at H'pathy has just been deleted.

Saved Hpathy-thread (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/hpathy/0004.htm)

Can anyone explain why merely asking what is acceptable can cause a thread to be deleted, with no explanation whatsoever? It is really quite simple: When you are immersed in hogwash up to your lower lip, you don't want anybody to make waves.

Hans :p

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
It is really quite simple: When you are immersed in hogwash up to your lower lip, you don't want anybody to make waves.

Very illustrative. :)

[H'ethetheth]

This struck me as odd:
Quoth gavinmurthy:

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/hpathy/0004-filer/smiley32.gif
Quoth gavinmurthy:

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/hpathy/0004-filer/smiley19.gif
Quoth Sarah I:

Murthy,

Don't even bother to enter into any kind of discussion with these people.
They are all trolls from Randiland.

:hit:

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
ROFLMAO!! Oh, hey...I bet one of the homeos is doing a proving on that as we type! Mind, I don't think they could ever experience symptoms of critical thought. Hmmm. Oh well, they'll make it up as they go along as usual.

What is the Latin name for "hogwash"...I bet it will appear on store shelves soon!

Man, a high potency cure for skepticism would turn all us into homeoquacks http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/scared1.gif Abluo porcus.

No, it will not cure skeptics. Like cures like, so it will be a cure for homeopaths. .... problem is, if it cures homeopaths, then it doesn't work and thus.... now I have a headache :(.

Hans

[H'ethetheth]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
...Abluo porcus... Forgive me, but that's pig latin.:D

It reminds me of that scene from Monty Python's Life of Brian, where a roman centurio catches Brian painting "Romanes eunt domus" on a wall, and corrects him.

...

Centurio: Except that domus takes the...?
Brian: The locative, sir!
Centurio: Which is?
Brian: Domum!
...

Ablutum porci would be closer I'd say.

[exarch]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
My thread at H'pathy has just been deleted.

Saved Hpathy-thread (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/hpathy/0004.htm)I have started a collection of my own. Wanna trade a couple? :D


H'ethetheth, porci is plural, right? Wouldn't that translate hog-wash (singular, not hogswash) wrongly?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by H'ethetheth
Forgive me, but that's pig latin.:D

SNIP Well, what else? :p


..OK, Ablutum porci be it then. Sounds better, too.


Hans ;)

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by exarch
I have started a collection of my own. Wanna trade a couple? :D


H'ethetheth, porci is plural, right? Wouldn't that translate hog-wash (singular, not hogswash) wrongly? Mmm possessive, isn't it?

so hog'swash .... .

Anyhow I think many of the existing remedies are pig Latin, too. In addition to being hogwash.

Hans

[exarch]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
It is really quite simple: When you are immersed in hogwash up to your lower lip, you don't want anybody to make waves.By the way, sig line anyone? :)

[H'ethetheth]

Originally posted by exarch
H'ethetheth, porci is plural, right? Wouldn't that translate hog-wash (singular, not hogswash) wrongly?
Yes, nominative plural but also...
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Mmm possessive, isn't it?

so hog'swash .... .

Anyhow I think many of the existing remedies are pig Latin, too. In addition to being hogwash.
Definitely.:D

[Deetee]

Originally posted by exarch

H'ethetheth, porci is plural, right? Wouldn't that translate hog-wash (singular, not hogswash) wrongly? [/B]

Porcus is second declension, I think.
Therefore it should go:

(nom/voc/accus/genit/dat/abl)

porcus, porce, porcum, porci, porco porco (singular)
porci, porci, porcos, porcorum, porcis, porcis (plural)

so wash of a hog is porci, wash of hogs is porcorum

(I hope..)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//forum_posts.asp?TID=2455&PN=1

"It is a total fraud to make money out of gullible people.



Murthy"

:dl:

[exarch]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//forum_posts.asp?TID=2455&PN=1

"It is a total fraud to make money out of gullible people.



Murthy"From the same thread, posted by Wim Pardaan:
"Having read these articles I think we shouldn`t jump too fast to conclusions"

:roll:

[geni]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//forum_posts.asp?TID=2455&PN=1

"It is a total fraud to make money out of gullible people.



Murthy"



It migh be humerus if the subject matter was not so serious

[Eos of the Eons]

I choked on my rice cake when I read

"the allopathic doctor told him those were all the side effects of the homeopathic medicine".

Rigghhhghghght.

[Dr. Imago]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
I choked on my rice cake when I read

"the allopathic doctor told him those were all the side effects of the homeopathic medicine".

Rigghhhghghght.

I don't know, Eos. There are some gullible and uninformed physicians out there, especially with things that exist on the fringes of medicine. And, without having much personal experience, they will include such nonsense as a possibility in their differential diagnoses.

-TT

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by ThirdTwin
I don't know, Eos. There are some gullible and uninformed physicians out there, especially with things that exist on the fringes of medicine. And, without having much personal experience, they will include such nonsense as a possibility in their differential diagnoses.

-TT


Oh sure, kill my hope for sanity ever prevailing in the world :( :)

[Dr. Imago]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Oh sure, kill my hope for sanity ever prevailing in the world :( :)

Sorry. Some doctors are suckers too. But, fortunately, they tend to be the younger, less-experienced ones (except for yours truly, of course ;) ) who haven't had sufficient time to get "burned" yet. Just so long as they remain in the minority, which they are.

-TT

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by ThirdTwin
Just so long as they remain in the minority, which they are.

-TT

Thank you. Believe it or not, hearing that makes a difference. The medical courses I've seen are impressive even in the first year, so I would think it would be a rarity to find a doc that naive yet.

[Dr. Imago]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Thank you. Believe it or not, hearing that makes a difference. The medical courses I've seen are impressive even in the first year, so I would think it would be a rarity to find a doc that naive yet.

You may be surprised to know that we really don't get all that much training in herbs and homeopathy and whatnot. There is a big movement to incorporate more of that into the general medical curriculum, but with it comes a lot of political baggage. The primary goal would be to educate doctors on how to have a dialog with their patients about "alternative" therapies as well as forewarn them about potential interactions. But, with that, there is always the contingency of docs who think that - until something has been completely disproven - you can't advocate against its use. So, the goals of such courses become murky.

I know some programs are already adopting parts of this curriculum in their pharmacology classes. Most have not. The problem is, there's so much other legitimate, evidence-based medicine to learn (especially in pharmacology) that it becomes hard to justify addition of this "softer" discipline. As a result, it's left to be covered (if at all) later on in training where it becomes somewhat of the blind leading the deaf and dumb. The information is inconsistent. And, without a specific curriculum, it is also hodge-podge.

I don't blame some doctors, especially the young ones still in training, for not having the complete picture. A good self-test for anyone at their local doctors office would be to ask, "What do you think about ___________ herb (or _________ homeopathic remedy)?" in concert with a particular ailment you've been diagnosed with. You should expect a relatively straight answer from your physician. If you don't get one or you get one that's essentially "that stuff's great, go for it", I would find another physician.

-TT

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

When you're in a hole, murthy, stop digging

http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//forum_posts.asp?TID=2455&PN=1&TPN=3

[exarch]

Hey Rolfe, BSM, I was rereading Randi's column from 2002 (it was referenced in last weeks column) and I found this very interesting item:

Originally here (http://www.randi.org/jr/112902.html).

An anonymous UK reader sends us this information:

Regarding quack medical devices, I'd encourage anyone in the UK to report them to the Advertising standards authority (ASA) at http://www.asa.org.uk. The burden of proof is on the advertiser to prove that the therapy/device/pill works. The ASA can rule (and has) that the evidence that the quack produces is not strong enough, and prevent them from making the same claims again.This might be helpful regarding the homeopathy ads in the Veterinary Sience magazine. Especially since they also seem to be breaking the cascade regulations ...

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by exarch
Hey Rolfe, BSM, I was rereading Randi's column from 2002 (it was referenced in last weeks column) and I found this very interesting item:

This might be helpful regarding the homeopathy ads in the Veterinary Sience magazine. Especially since they also seem to be breaking the cascade regulations ...

It's a good thought.

[Rolfe]

I don't see it. Nobody is advertising homoeopathic remedies in Veterinary Times. They are writing letters and articles extolling the virtues pf homoeopathic practice to their colleagues. What's to report?

And by the way, as we found out when we tried to get the ASA to take an interest in the diabolically inaccurate blood analysers being marketed directly to veterinary surgeons (who mostly know bugger-all about analytical technology), the ASA does not involve itself with advertisements to professional bodies, who are supposed to be smart enough to regulate their own advertisers.

Rolfe.