Why people won't take the Challenge

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Here's one guy's opinion on why people won't take the Challenge:

http://gate8.com/bbs-tai/messages/5205.html

I think he's been reading a little too much Quantum Mechanics.

~~ Paul

[SpaceFluffer]

Sounds like he thinks he knows what he's talking about, but I'm not convinced that he does.

[rppa]

Originally posted by SpaceFluffer
Sounds like he thinks he knows what he's talking about, but I'm not convinced that he does.

I can't see any evidence that he does, eitiher about QM or about JREF. Check this in his followup response (emphasis mine):

In fact, only a couple dozen (his words in his FAQ) have received preliminary testing. That seems to be a rather small test case sample. And we don't know how this preliminary testing was accomplished, because the challenge application does not require preliminary testing to use mutually-accepted criteria.

We know how this preliminary testing was done.

It was based on mutually-accepted criteria.

[Carn]

Could someone more with more knowledge explain what he meant with that:

"1. Both sides often phrase their claims and counter-claims using non-operative terms. In other words, their observations do not refer directly to the operations used to produce the observation. In modern (post 1920's) science, any idea not expressed operationally is considered untestable, and consequently meaningless. ("Meaningless" is used in the sense of "not something that science can talk about.") Many paranormal claims, many counter-claims I've read by Mr. Randi and CSICOP, and even several of conditions of Mr. Randi's challenge application - fall into this meaningless, untestable category.

[A side note: Many consider the use of operational terms (sometimes called "Copenhagenism") a revolutionary breakthrough - perhaps the greatest of the 20th century."


I learned a lot about QM, but i have no idea why any observation has to refer directly to the operations used to produce the observation to be testable. Could make things easier, but there is no real need for that.

Carn

[SpaceFluffer]

He may well have a point in that sentence, Carn, but I'm damned if I know what the heck he's talking about. The statementBoth sides often phrase their claims and counter-claims using non-operative terms. In other words, their observations do not refer directly to the operations used to produce the observation.
has extremely little semantic content. It's hard to find any kind of meaning in it. 'Refer'? In what sense?

<sigh> Seems to be yet another person who's latched onto the whole 'Quantum Mechanics tells us that nothing is real' bandwagon.

Edited to add that I've never heard of 'Copenhagenism', although I assume that this supposedly would refer to the so-called Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. That is, roughly speaking, that a wave-particle duality exists (aka. "the photon goes through BOTH slits!"). How this is supposed to relate to "operative terms" is anybody's guess.

[Zep]

To back up his woolly assertions, he refers to another report about the breatharian in Germany whom Randi gave short shift to in 1999 when he applied for the Challenge. THAT highly biased and misrepresentative report is headed "Randi Backs Down" and is on an "alternative science" site. This guy is essentially repeating these same assertions, but in less flaming terms.

In reality, The JREF Challenge is quite simple: If you say you can do it under genuine scientific conditions, then do it, and win a million. This guy is simply trying to redefine "scientific conditions", using self-invented terms and blather, to change the scenario to match his own particular bias, i.e. that no-one can ever win the Challenge. In other words, he's inventing excuses.

[Carn]

Originally posted by Zep
This guy is simply trying to redefine "scientific conditions", using self-invented terms and blather, to change the scenario to match his own particular bias, i.e. that no-one can ever win the Challenge. In other words, he's inventing excuses.

I may be wrong, but he could be arguing about the point, that according to QM,etc. any sort of test is chance dependant, therefore the strict rules of succes/failure of JREF challenge are inaccurate and unscientific as they ignore that fact. Especially, there is a "big" region, where stupid JREF is unable to see the difference between lucky non para and unlucky para and JREF ignores that.
But even if i guess right, he should have once thought about how big chance from QM effect could be with claims, that deal with objects/subjects, that are visible to human eyes. Probably more important to worry about test being spoiled by meteor strikes or similar likely problems.

Carn

[Ashles]

I may be wrong, but he could be arguing about the point, that according to QM,etc. any sort of test is chance dependant, therefore the strict rules of succes/failure of JREF challenge are inaccurate and unscientific as they ignore that fact.
Carn, this is a guestion that comes up frequently.

As far as I see it the case is this: The JREF does not use what would be generally considered to be scientific testing because scientific testing often involves repeated trials over a long period of time to analyse extremely small effects. The JREF does not have the time, staff or budget to accomodate that.
The JREF challenge is looking for evidence of a very clear indisputable paranormal ability.
It is not looking for repeated peer-reviewed trials, but instead something which is clearly demonstrable in a preliminary test then a main test. As a result is uses protocols and probability levels much higher than standard scientific studies.

There are two main reasons for this.
1) Generally scientific studies are looking at effects and theories that are within currently accepted general theories about science (e.g. do high levels of carrots in diet lead to diabetes - to pick a random and made-up example). Success or failure in these tests would not lead to a massive shift in scientific knowledge.
2) The test has a $1 million prize. Controls should be extremely strict to prevent fraud being involved. This is not a factor in most general scientific studies.

The 'paranormal' is an area where fraud is known to repeatedly be involved so it only makes sense that the evidence should be beyond question.

Those who apply for the test should know that a clear and unambiguous result should be demonstrable. Otherwise they don't have to apply, they can lobby a university for long-term testing. The university (if the result were positive) would make a lot of money as a result so it would be worth their while.

The final point is that, while the JREF might not be a scientific test overall is uses scientific experimental protocol to analyse the claimants abilities.

[sf108]

I don't see Tai Chi as anything paranormal. It's an ancient Chinese martial arts that focuses on relaxation and energising the body through slow/fast movements depending on the style being practiced. I know I've heard about some schools displaying phenomenal abilities like shown by yellow bamboo (laugh), but most martial art schools are genuine in their teaching of self defence and health.

Unless being able to produce fireballs like Ken does in Street Fighter is being claimed...I don't see why people should be targeting any martial art disciplines.

[sf108]

Oh yeh, about this thread. That link with the response by Al...does anyone know what he's on about? For a layman, all I see is someone trying to sound intelligent, yet not getting his point through.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

If there were any psychics or anyone else who could do something paranormal out there,Then the million would of been claimed a long time ago.


It's simple...If you have a power,You demonstrate it and win.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by sf108
I don't see Tai Chi as anything paranormal. It's an ancient Chinese martial arts that focuses on relaxation and energising the body through slow/fast movements depending on the style being practiced. I know I've heard about some schools displaying phenomenal abilities like shown by yellow bamboo (laugh), but most martial art schools are genuine in their teaching of self defence and health.

Unless being able to produce fireballs like Ken does in Street Fighter is being claimed...I don't see why people should be targeting any martial art disciplines.

There are a number of claims made about various martial arts -- Taiji is merely one of the more egregious violators -- that are actually paranormal. For example, claims about the ability to sense and manipulate personal energy fields ["chi"] are often coupled with claims of effects that can only be described as sorcerous. For example, chigong.com claims to be able to cure "Stomach disorder, back pain, magrain pain, insomnia, diabets, stress, fatigue, and so on." "Chigong is good for all kind of health problem, including cancer." "Taiji is a form of chigong. Taiji is indeed very good healing art."

Offhand, I'd say that Taiji as a treatment for cancer qualifies as paranormal.

[KRAMER]

Just in via email....

=============================================

MY PSYCHI /SPIRITUAL ABILITIES ARE NOT FOR SALE, AND ANYONE WHO WOULD STOOP SO LOW NEEDS TO BE WITH THE CROWD, YET I AM SOLO, ALONE , YES WHAT YOU ARE OFFERING IS A LOT OF MONEY , ESPECIALLY TO ONE WHO HAS NOTHING, BUT MY POWER OF THE SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE WHICH I POSSESS WILL NEVER BE FOR SALE, BECAUSE IT WAS GIVEN TO ME FREELY AND I WILL GIVE IT FREELY, WITHOUT STRINGS ATTACHED. SO I TELL YOU, YES TO YOUR SEARCH, THERE ARE THOSE, OR SHOULD I SAY, I AM ONE WHO HAS BEEN BLESSED WITH PARANORMAL ABILITES. AMEN REV. JUANA MARIA- THIS IS MY SISTER'S EMAIL ADDRESS, MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS ******.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by KRAMER
Just in via email....

=============================================

MY PSYCHI /SPIRITUAL ABILITIES ARE NOT FOR SALE, AND ANYONE WHO WOULD STOOP SO LOW NEEDS TO BE WITH THE CROWD, YET I AM SOLO, ALONE , YES WHAT YOU ARE OFFERING IS A LOT OF MONEY , ESPECIALLY TO ONE WHO HAS NOTHING, BUT MY POWER OF THE SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE WHICH I POSSESS WILL NEVER BE FOR SALE, BECAUSE IT WAS GIVEN TO ME FREELY AND I WILL GIVE IT FREELY, WITHOUT STRINGS ATTACHED. SO I TELL YOU, YES TO YOUR SEARCH, THERE ARE THOSE, OR SHOULD I SAY, I AM ONE WHO HAS BEEN BLESSED WITH PARANORMAL ABILITES. AMEN REV. JUANA MARIA- THIS IS MY SISTER'S EMAIL ADDRESS, MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS ******.

You have my deepest sympathy. Having to deal with that on a daily basis takes one big gall bladder...

[KRAMER]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
You have my deepest sympathy. Having to deal with that on a daily basis takes one big gall bladder...

And if it ever needs to be removed, I'm sending Randi the bill.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by KRAMER
And if it ever needs to be removed, I'm sending Randi the bill.

He can remove it by using psychic surgery. And put back in the parts he was not supposed to remove!

Hey, I've seen him do it! Seeing is believing....isn't it?? :)

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by sf108
I don't see Tai Chi as anything paranormal. It's an ancient Chinese martial arts that focuses on relaxation and energising the body through slow/fast movements depending on the style being practiced. I know I've heard about some schools displaying phenomenal abilities like shown by yellow bamboo (laugh), but most martial art schools are genuine in their teaching of self defence and health.

Unless being able to produce fireballs like Ken does in Street Fighter is being claimed...I don't see why people should be targeting any martial art disciplines.

Well, there was a thread a few months ago about bogus Tai Chi, and I think that some comment was made about the New Age Tai Chi practitioners, and their Qi based claims of healing.

(BTW, what is commonly taught as 'Tai Chi' is about as 'ancient' as the automobile)

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by KRAMER
Just in via email....

=============================================

MY PSYCHI /SPIRITUAL ABILITIES ARE NOT FOR SALE, AND ANYONE WHO WOULD STOOP SO LOW NEEDS TO BE WITH THE CROWD, YET I AM SOLO, ALONE , YES WHAT YOU ARE OFFERING IS A LOT OF MONEY , ESPECIALLY TO ONE WHO HAS NOTHING, BUT MY POWER OF THE SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE WHICH I POSSESS WILL NEVER BE FOR SALE, BECAUSE IT WAS GIVEN TO ME FREELY AND I WILL GIVE IT FREELY, WITHOUT STRINGS ATTACHED. SO I TELL YOU, YES TO YOUR SEARCH, THERE ARE THOSE, OR SHOULD I SAY, I AM ONE WHO HAS BEEN BLESSED WITH PARANORMAL ABILITES. AMEN REV. JUANA MARIA- THIS IS MY SISTER'S EMAIL ADDRESS, MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS ******.

Whenever I see something like this, the same thing goes through my mind:
Why not still take the challenge--even if the money's refused 'on principle'--and then rub all of our skeptical noses in it, 'when' they accomplish their feat? Saying they have these skills and then turning down the testing just tells me that they just wanted to try & exercise some type of control over the situation:
"Why, yes, I do have these powers. Can you see them? Why, no, I'm sorry, you aren't worthy of being shown. But, take my word for them, I really do have them, by golly!"

And then, when we ask to be shown, they can feel superior to us, because they can refuse. After all, how can you prove or disprove something like this, if the claimant won't take the test in the first place?

[crimresearch]

' Maria, juana', the Reverend (ess), one each? Why does that start to sound like a bad copy of a Cheech and Chong routine?

[Carn]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
Whenever I see something like this, the same thing goes through my mind:
Why not still take the challenge--even if the money's refused 'on principle'--and then rub all of our skeptical noses in it, 'when' they accomplish their feat? Saying they have these skills and then turning down the testing just tells me that they just wanted to try & exercise some type of control over the situation:
"Why, yes, I do have these powers. Can you see them? Why, no, I'm sorry, you aren't worthy of being shown. But, take my word for them, I really do have them, by golly!"

And then, when we ask to be shown, they can feel superior to us, because they can refuse. After all, how can you prove or disprove something like this, if the claimant won't take the test in the first place?

I think this is realy often the case, they know and can do something and the sceptic can never see it himself, but desparately wants something, so can be even made to beg for every drop of information.

Reminded me of a friend of mine, when i first met her, i already knew, that she was a bit into spirits, ghost, telepathy and so on. I got her into talking about it and even said it is possible to contact and summon ghosts,etc. Naive as i am i suggested to do that the same evening, i would try to get the candles or whatever needed. My suggestion was serious that time, i would have been happy to help summoning a supernatural being.
When she refused i offered some other dates, which she then rejected by saying it is too dangerous. My honest suggestion was then, that i could round up some friends and we arm ourselves with clubs and knives and we summon it inside a box filled with a little petrol and some people keep burning candles ready to throw. Of course those spirits she could summon where all immaterial or too powerful to hurt with knives, bla bla. I asked still to try it, because at least we could do it at a remote location and sit in started cars, so we can get away if its realy dangerous, which of course did not solve the danger problem as well. Apparently summoning was only not dangerous in the right (complicated!) circumstances and with the right people, who have the right mind set.

Which left me as the stupid naive child, ready to foolishly endangering myself and others not accepting, that i know so little, while she was wise and careful and superior.

Considering that she little friends and was treated with a lot of disrespect by others, this was her way to create something, which allowed her to think herself superior to others.
Probably something like "They just laugh, because i'm so far above them, they do not understand me."

Carn

[Temporal Renegade]

On the television show 'X-Files', Mulder had a poster on his office wall. It had a grainy photo of a UFO and underneath it, the caption I WANT TO BELIEVE. This can also imply to ghosts, psychic ability, etc.

I also want to believe in these things; I like the idea that there are things around us that we can't explain, just waiting for someone to crack them wide open. Unfortunately, just about every single person who makes the claim that they've experienced these things are either misled, mistaken, or flat-out lying, which doesn't help their case for these things at all.

If someone said they could levitate a battleship, make it do a piroette on its bow and then do a barrel roll, before being gently set on its keel in a wide-open field, I think just one time would be sufficient to win the prize. Then, if you still refuse the money, well that's up to you.:D

[KRAMER]

Here's a really good one, from a potential applicant who won't even send in an application because we won't break the Challenge rules for her.

What can she do? RAISE THE DEAD, of course !!!

=============================================

From: "SD" <pass****@yahoo.com>
To: "Kramer" <kramer@randi.org>
Subject: Re: Million dollar challenge
Date: Monday, December 27, 2004 3:47 PM

Mr Kramer or Randie,

This is what I am proposing, and its very different I'm sure than any offer you have ever seen. Therefore there has to be some slight modification. We are talking about raising the dead here, not some stupid little psychic trick or something that can be faked.
Since you have allready read my emails, I wwon't rewrite them but I will explain what I mean by modifications.

It appears you are taking this a joke. I assure I am very serious. I would like to get this application in the mail to you today so as soon as you take me seriously I will do it.

1. There can be no preliminary testing as a successful test would be a successful conclusion.

2. Unless you want to move in with me and follow my every move, you cannot attend the event. Therefore to secure your side, I have included the clause that the person who is raised MUST BE KNOWN to have been dead at least 3 days. Meaning, it is someone who was pronounced dead by a coronor, or someone who has allready been buried...theres actually many ways ...such as someone whose death was reported by law enforcement or whatever. Or a death that was very public... It makes no difference to me. But it will be well documented by proper authorites that the person has indeed been dead at least three days and you will be able to investigate that after the event takes place.

3. Since I do not know who it is who will be raised or where it will occur....I can't tell you a time and place.... all I can tell you is someone will indeed be raised.

4. Now, since you do not believe me and are taking this as a joke, I see no reason why you should not agree to these terms, after all, you don't believe it is possible right? The money will only be paid to me after I have successfully completed the mission. And after completion of the mission, you are free to do any investigating to assure the person has indeed been dead more than three days.

5. I assure you, you have no need to fear. I am not a magician, psychic or witch. I'm just a young lady who is broke and needs a million dollars and who is willing to accept your challenge if you are willing to accept mine. But, since I am broke I would like to hurry up with this thing and get you an application as soon as we agree on the terms. In fact just to be able to get this thing notorized and have gas money for the rest of the week, I will have to take a christmas present back.

So I would like an answer so I can get started, and because I don't have the money to go get this notorized and sent to you without taking my present back, then I would like to come to a successful agreement before I do that.

===========================================

So she can raise the dead, but there can be no observers.

AND, there will be NO preliminary test, as HER claim doesn't require one, presumably because it is so great.

Oh, and I almost forgot: although she can raise the dead, she cannot find gas money (or the spare change needed to notarize her application) unless she returns a Xmas present. La de da.

This nutjob will never apply.

[KRAMER]

Obviously, this person has no intention of applying, and has devised her escape portal by insisting on impossible exceptions to the Challenge rules. What a surprise.

Here's my reply. I'm not spending a month playing around with this one...and by the way, this person has been emailing Randi for about 2 weeks now, making impossible demands, trying to force him to jettison several of the Challenge rules.

=============================================

To Whom it May Concern (as you chose to neglect to sign your emails)....

Don't take your Xmas present back.

We won't bend the rules for you, and we will NOT suspend preliminary testing - not for ANY reason - so stop asking.

We don't take any of this as a joke. It's VERY serious. We want to see you PROVE your claim. That means a DEMONSTRATION that we, or our associates, would attend. If you really think that you are going to do this without observors and win a million dollars, forget it. We will NOT agree to any such private test. If you wish to become an applicant, you must agree to a demonstration before observers.

You can raise the dead? Great. Let's see you do that.

We won't break any of the Challenge rules for you, or for anyone. The process begins with the negotiation of a test protocol. Once we have mutually agreed upon that, we can arrange a test location and date.

The JREF Challenge will award the million dollar prize to you IF you successfully demonstrate this before a team of observers. Those are the rules. Please READ THE RULES again, and do not contact us again UNLESS you agree to follow them without further debate.

I hope that we now, finally, understand each other.

Also, if you don't sign your next email USING YOUR REAL/LEGAL NAME, we will respond no further to your delusions.

You want the million bucks? READ THE CHALLENGE RULES< and FOLLOW THEM. No exceptions. Period.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

[KRAMER]

Don't be puzzled, its very simple actually. I assure you, I am completely sane. I read in the bible that those who believe in Jesus will do greater miracles than he did. And since I believe in Jesus, and since my divorce a few years ago left me penniless, and I am struggling, and have no family except for one son, who doesn't even live with me, I see no reason why not to try and take you up on your offer. After all, If I am not successful I haven't lost anything. I'll be back where I am with nothing. And I assure you, I have nothin, I don't even have a job. lol. I am just a young lady who was married half my life and am now penniless, and who will pray to Jesus whenever and wherever I feel lead. Could be at a funeral could be at a cemetary...Doesn't matter to me...I will pray whenever I feel lead and I will raise someone from the dead. Now I don't see what the problem is with modifying the contract, since first of all you don't believe its possible, and second this is not something that can be faked.

I assure you, I want this million dollars and I will pick someone who has been VERY VERY dead for at least 3 days, so there will be no question when it comes to collecting my million dollars. I don't know who, where , or when... I am just gonna go with what I feel lead to do and when. People are dying everyday. I will pick someone who I feel lead to raise and then I will pray, and like I said, if I don't do it, I haven't lost anything for I have nothing to lose. The only advantage I have, is that I believe what the bible says, and I have nothing to lose.

-(*no signature)

==============================================


Well, that explains it, alright. - Kramer

[KRAMER]

----- Original Message -----
From: SD
To: Kramer
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 6:44 PM
Subject: Should I expect a response?


Should I expect a response or have you decided against it? I'm sure you agree that what I am proposing cannot be squeezed into your contract.

There is no way to conduct a preliminary test. Please respond with a final yes or no.

-(no signature)

==============================================

NO. None of the Challenge rules will be broken for you or for any other applicant. Goodbye.

-Kramer, JREF

[KRAMER]

More hogwash:

=============================================

OK. Well so we agree then that the preliminary testing will be done which also means a successful conclusion correct? I mean how many people do you want me to raise from the dead? Ok send someone down to Arizona cause I have chosen my person. He has been dead since Thursday, allready has had autopsy performed on him and the funeral should be soon. I picked him off the news. And I have been informed that he is the one that will be raised. How would you like to go about this? We don't have much time.

===========================================

My reply...

Incorrect. We agreed to NOTHING. Enough hogwash.

Agree to follow the Challenge rules or GO AWAY.

Send in a duly executed, notarized Challenge application and a claim letter like anyone else.

This consitutes our final offer to YOU - OBEY THE RULES or you will NOT receive another email response from us.

-Kramer, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

==============================================

What can I say?

Every now and then, enough is enough.

[Zep]

Hmmm...

I'd say this person is seriously deluded, and has been influenced to a fair extent by some sort of extreme religious group or sect into "praying" for stuff to come true. If the divorce and subesequent events are real, this person is the ideal target for looney-tunes sects. And I'd venture to guess this is a person with a cultural background that sees no problems in appealing to the gods, and the acceptance of the comic-book possibility of resurrection. Or it's all a pissweak setup.

Kramer, I appreciate you get plagued with this sort of crud daily, and I'd still be insistent on the Challenge rules applying without exception, but I think I'd be circumspect about the terms in which you couch your responses to sad people like this.

[Paul2]

Originally posted by Zep
Hmmm...

I'd say this person is seriously deluded, and has been influenced to a fair extent by some sort of extreme religious group or sect into "praying" for stuff to come true. . . .

Kramer, I appreciate you get plagued with this sort of crud daily, and I'd still be insistent on the Challenge rules applying without exception, but I think I'd be circumspect about the terms in which you couch your responses to sad people like this.

With all due respect for Kramer, who has a truly amazing job, my reading of many, if not most, applicants that come through this forum is that they are some combination of desparate, mentally ill, or clinically deluded (even if such a thing doesn't exist, it should - we've loads of case studies right here). They should be pitied, in the best sense of the word. I've seen Kramer and others respond in that way, I think it should occur more often. Just my several ha'pennies.

[Dennis44]

Hello Mr.Kramer,

Everyone. Skeptics. I am sure that ressurections and raising the dead are very real. Its just that its such a secret.

Your lack of faith disturbs me. ~darth vader star wars.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dennis44
Hello Mr.Kramer,

Everyone. Skeptics. I am sure that ressurections and raising the dead are very real. Its just that its such a secret.

Your lack of faith disturbs me. ~darth vader star wars. Dennis,

How are you? Are you being careful with treating your condition these days?

I don't think anyone would want to keep ressurections and raising the dead as any big secret. Such powers would be remarkably useful, not to mention money-spinners. And especially for such tragedies as the destruction from the Indian Ocean tsunami that I'm sure you've seen on the TV news. It would be so good to have all these innocent people returned from the dead, wouldn't it? Unless, of course, such powers don't really exist at all, not even as a big secret. What do you think?

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by KRAMER
from the "applicant"
...

I assure you, I want this million dollars and I will pick someone who has been VERY VERY dead for at least 3 days, so there will be no question when it comes to collecting my million dollars.
==============================================


So, as a precondition, the coroner must aver that he has thoroughly examined him/her, and s/he must not only be merely dead, but really, most sincerely dead.

[misawafan]

Originally posted by KRAMER
Here's a really good one, from a potential applicant who won't even send in an application because we won't break the Challenge rules for her.

What can she do? RAISE THE DEAD, of course !!!

=============================================

From: "SD" <pass****@yahoo.com>
To: "Kramer" <kramer@randi.org>
Subject: Re: Million dollar challenge
Date: Monday, December 27, 2004 3:47 PM


2. Unless you want to move in with me and follow my every move, you cannot attend the event.

Wouldn't you want to move in with her?

I assume with raising the dead she will also grant them the superhuman strength to dig out of the coffin/vault/grave to appear above ground?

[c4ts]

I wish I could raise the dead. I'd sneak up on med students operating on a human cadaver, make that corpse get up and tap dance 'till its organs fall out.

I would be invited to every funeral, too. Or not. The last thing you want is grandpa to pop out of his coffin and say "I'm okay, kids!"

[Dennis44]

Raising the dead and ressurection power would of course come from the heart. Squeeze, slap, chant 'wake up'! Then wonderbah! the person is alive again. If only it were that easy to believe in and do.

If only Fear of God ment something these days.

What is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil. ~Nietzsche

[Dennis44]

Zep,

I am fine. A gentlemans way should never be traveled lightly.

I have been under care for over 20 years, since my navy days and the cold war. I assure you that i do real fine.

If the ufo hotline limits you to 1 call per day. ~jeff foxworthy 'you might be a redneck'

The enemy of your enemy is your friend. ~dennis l ishman