Question for Christians - #7 ( apologies to Patrick )

[Skeptical Greg]

If the Judeo / Christian Bible is such an important link between God and man, why do you suppose it was virtually inaccessible to man until about 400 years ago.

Not to mention , that it is still inaccessible to many more people than it is accessible to.

[Atlas]

It would have been alot cooler if God had left his own audio track that people who couldn't read could listen to.

A lot of people couldn't read back then but only married men had trouble hearing.

[Mr Clingford]

I'm not quite sure what meaning or meanings of accessible you are using (do you mean directly accessible, such as owning a copy in one's own language), but I will offer a reply.

I think the argument you make is good, but that only goes to show, in my view, that the premises are faulty (and I assume that they are based on Xtianities you have come across).

Some Christian approaches focus a great deal on the Bible, far too much for my liking, but it is only one 'link between God and man' among others that might be accessible to anyone anywhere anytime.

[Cleopatra]

I am afraid that will regret this but what the hell.

The question is based on a erroneous perception of what constitutes essential and important Christian teaching. I aknowledge that we must not blame people for this perception because the world of the West has experienced Christianity and the Christian doctrine as it is described in the Bible that means as a " How to" book.

One should always bare in mind though that Christianity wasn't born in the court of the Pope but in the jewish communities of Middle East.

Please notice the key word here: COMMUNITY.

For the Jews and the Eastern Christians the worship of God out of the community is unthinkable. It's a western practice to rely on the Bible and the scripts in order to worship the God that's why Western people believe that it's a prerequisite to know to read in order to be able to practice Religion.

In reality this is not true. The Bible means nothing to us if you read it locked in your house. In fact in the East where Christianity was born the Bible as a book that one must read means very liittle. I have attended the Sunday School for some years and we have never read the Bible!

It's the teachings of the priest and the discussion and practice within the Christian Community that makes you a Christian and not your ability to read the Bible.

That's why in my humble opinion Catholics , Evangelicals, Protestants etc etc etc are heretics with the ancient meaning of the word and not with the moral implication this word has.

They have twisted the core meaning of Christianity by breaking the charisma of the community and by giving to the Bible a place that didn't mean to have.

[Skeptical Greg]

Good reply Cleopatra.

Many people ( apparently, moreso in the west, as opposed to what you are familiar with ) defend there beliefs based on what they believe to be the inspired word of God, found in the Judeo / Christian Bible .

Either it is essential, or it is not. If it is essential, it is almost paradoxical, that so few ( relatively speaking, throughout the ages ), have actually had acccess to it.


I'm not suggesting that all Christians believe this, just asking those who do, to address my observation.

[Flo]

Originally posted by Diogenes
If the Judeo / Christian Bible is such an important link between God and man, why do you suppose it was virtually inaccessible to man until about 400 years ago.

Not to mention , that it is still inaccessible to many more people than it is accessible to.


None of the various christian churches, before the reformation, described the bible itself as a link between God and man. On the contrary, they were well aware of the problems that might arise should everybody have access to the text, and the official stance was that the flock was supposed to do as told by the clergy, described as THE link between god and man.

[The Don]

William Tyndale was killed BECAUSE he wanted to make the bible accessible to the masses by publishing it in English rather than the true language of a Greco-Middle Eastern religion, Latin. He was driven by his religious zeal and a desire to put the workd of God into the hands of the people.

Of course this is confusing the international franchise business of religion with anything to do with a belief in God.

[CptColumbo]

Others who have better and more immediate access to this information can correct the dates if I'm wrong, but the Bible or rathe the New Testement as we know it today wasn't finalized until the late 9th century. Prior to that almost every church or gathering of Christians had their own version of the Gospels. The chruch leaders decided that they should have better continuity between the books and narrowed it down to the 4 Gospels and 27 books all together we know today. Those that were left out either were too redundant or were irrelevant (some believe that some books were rejected because of the politics they expressed, since we don't have all of them I can't dispute or confirm this). One of the surviving and popular (at the time) rejects, the book of Thomas is another Gospel, but tends to be more philosophical and covers teachings that are in other Gospels.

Even if your not a Christian, the history of the New Testement is quite fascinating. I only listened to a lecture on tape about it, and learned more from it than all my time in Sunday School.

[Kitty Chan]

Cleopatra

You make a good point that there should be more interest in community and in some places it is that. I would not fault the "west" for wanting to read the bible. In China believers there go through great trials to get a bible for themselves. (However, they do read it locked in their houses but we can forgive them for that)

At one point only those that were priests or rich had the ability to read. And if you could read maybe not write. And if you could do either then you would need paper etc. One just couldnt pick this up anywhere like today.

I understand that some priests let this "they only knew how to read Gods word" get misconstrued. They just knew how to read and they didnt read the part about the priesthood of all believers.

So there was a backlash on that court of the pope as people gained the ability to read for themselves and the technology eventually from Heildburg produced bibles en mass.

People also read for themselves the great commision. The disiples went around preaching it. No it wasnt popular to travel around but when you are challanged with go forth, you go. I dont know if its a western idea if God started it.

It is a privilage to be able to read in the first place. I have never heard of someone saying you NEED to read in order to know God. I would think you need to read to get along in the world. I know when I grew up there were a couple of my dads friends who signed x for their names. That was only 70 years ago ;)

In regards to never reading the bible its whatever works for you. Its fine if it works. I know a critisism of the west church is that we listen to the preachers and should not. Maybe this doesnt happen in the east, also maybe they are more accepting of religion unlike the west. Or maybe there is not enough bibles and people who know how to read?

You also said
"It's the teachings of the priest and the discussion and practice within the Christian Community that makes you a Christian and not your ability to read the Bible."

I once again have never heard someone advocate this and would be shocked and correct them if they did say it was how I read the bible. The bible is all about discussion with priests, preachers, study groups, friends, family. Reading studying talking discussing the bible helps a christian learn.

:)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Diogenes

If the Judeo / Christian Bible is such an important link between God and man, why do you suppose it was virtually inaccessible to man until about 400 years ago.

Not to mention , that it is still inaccessible to many more people than it is accessible to. Of course without the ability to mass produce the Bible, not to mention so many people being illiterate, chances are the only people fortunate enough to have a copy would be the clergy.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I am afraid that I will regret this but what the hell.
Well, I'll join you in that sentiment - and I'll plunge ahead anyway.

The question is based on a erroneous perception of what constitutes essential and important Christian teaching. I aknowledge that we must not blame people for this perception because the world of the West has experienced Christianity and the Christian doctrine as it is described in the Bible that means as a " How to" book.
Of course it is imperitive to glean the essential and important teaching of Christianity. Your spiritual life hangs in the balance. I'm with you so far.

One should always bare in mind though that Christianity wasn't born in the court of the Pope but in the jewish communities of Middle East.

Please notice the key word here: COMMUNITY.

For the Jews and the Eastern Christians the worship of God out of the community is unthinkable. It's a western practice to rely on the Bible and the scripts in order to worship the God that's why Western people believe that it's a prerequisite to know to read in order to be able to practice Religion.
I don't buy it. Worship out of the community - unthinkable? That can't be right. Where did Solomon write the psalms, at parties? The Jews of course came together in communities but what's unthinkable is that they went home without their Lord. They would pray at meals and before they went to sleep. Not all had families some were alone in these activities. Christians today are the same. Private time with God is at least as important as community time. Actually without TV and radio to distract them I would think that thoughts of God were on their minds a lot.

In reality this is not true. The Bible means nothing to us if you read it locked in your house. In fact in the East where Christianity was born the Bible as a book that one must read means very liittle. I have attended the Sunday School for some years and we have never read the Bible!

It's the teachings of the priest and the discussion and practice within the Christian Community that makes you a Christian and not your ability to read the Bible.

That's why in my humble opinion Catholics , Evangelicals, Protestants etc etc etc are heretics with the ancient meaning of the word and not with the moral implication this word has.

They have twisted the core meaning of Christianity by breaking the charisma of the community and by giving to the Bible a place that didn't mean to have. I have a similar disdain for the Bible. But I have not read it all. I have read the New testament several times. I've read parts of the old testament and found it troubling, dangerous even.

What's strange sounding though is a Christian branding Catholics, Evangelical, and Protestants as heretics. You mentioned "essential and important teaching", capitalized COMMUNITY, and left out Jesus and the gospels.

I do take your point. I think you carried it a bit too far (calling out heresy)- and then neglected to mention the core of what is essential.

I do agree that many many Christians confuse the importance of denotion and connotation of the words their holy book. But that's where the gospels are. If you disassociate too far you've got a religion with no core. It's just what your preacher tells you. You have to take one person's word and you'll never know if he's just making it up.

That being said, I don't give two hoots for the ancient book. Growing up Christian was growing up in fear. Fear of hell and God's wrath if I wasn't a good boy. It wasn't until I fell in love that my world view changed. Love and community are aspects of the good life. Religion is a mere overlay that can contribute to or diminish the good life depending on your posture. So while I think you are wrong in your post I do think you've got your head screwed on straight most of the time. And I wish you a happy life filled with love and community Cleo.